Using the Five Elements to teach Wing Chun

[LoneTiger108]

I've been a bit distracted recently, getting involved in the 'fight or flight' argument all too often :( So I thought it was a good time to share a topic I posted on Renes WCK site, to see what you all think of the idea of using traditional, cultural concepts to assist in the teaching of Wing Chun.

When I was first studying Wing Chun our teacher used to discuss very basic principles connected to the five elements and how we can highlight different approaches to teaching basics using this common Chinese theory.

During my time I learnt how to teach in five different ways, which are:

1. How To Learn
2. How To Practice
3. How To Gain Skill
4. How to Use
5. How To Change

These methods rotate in cycles, and from my experience you can start practically anywhere , although some ways are slower/faster than others. Also, if you look at the way in which a School teaches, it's main purpose and aims, it will almost definitely fit in to one of the elements, if not all of them.

The first cycle is intended to start with Learning How To Learn, and if you're a 'fighter' you may prefer the How To Use approach more ;)

Here is an example of the first stage in understanding how to approach learning 'how to learn' Wing Chun, or any Martial Art for that matter imho.

Learning How To Learn

My training at Jun Mo involved many varieties of learning, and at the time it just seemed like an endless barrage of information and pressure on my little frame. But I took it. Once I had time to sit down and write my notes, I realized that it wasn't that much at all really. Varied practise, but the same theme, same way. I have already highlighted the 5 Elements of learning, basically making sense out of chaos is needed.

So, how does the Wing Chun practitioner 'learn how to learn?'

By understanding the construct of Wing Chun

The Construct of Wing Chun

1. Form
2. Equipment
3. Interaction
4. Weaponry
5. Study

Any thoughts? Advice? Criticism?

I'm all ears...

[t_niehoff]

All of that is nonsense.

Those are not the 5 elements of Chinese "cosmology" (earth, metal, wood, etc.) -- and there is an intricate theory that goes along with those (theory of production/destruction, etc.). The 5 elements theory is bulls1t.

Using silly "concepts" to teach is silly. If you do some research into Chinese pedagogy (teaching methods), you will find that it is universally recognized as trash by experts in the education field. This is not surprising since the Chinese culture opposes change and innovation, opposes questioning of fundamentals, etc.

Why use out-dated, fantasy "concepts" to teach when we can use proven teaching and training methods -- the sport model -- that has been proven scientifically to be an optimal way to learn and develop motor skills, and that has proven by results (in athletics) to be an optimal way to learn and develop skill?

Look at boxing, MT, judo, sambo, MMA, etc. and how they teach and train as a model. They got it right.

The only "drawback" of the sport model is that it involves actually doing the activity itself as the core of the training. But, if you are one of those that simply don't want to fight and only want to pretend, then sport-type training would not be for you.

[LoneTiger108]

All of that is nonsense.

Those are not the 5 elements of Chinese "cosmology" (earth, metal, wood, etc.) -- and there is an intricate theory that goes along with those (theory of production/destruction, etc.). The 5 elements theory is bulls1t.

I expected nothing less of you T :D

Again, it's good to hear your thoughts and critique. Thing is, this IS Five Element theory that assists teaching. It does originate from more traditional, or dare I say it, ancient ways of thinking that you may think has it's faults but I know it is a robust, proven way of teaching and naturally developing the human body. Put simply, it fits directly into Martial Arts. Always has, and always will imho. And it has nothing to do with Communism dude! :eek:

You obviously didn't appreciate Roberts TCM, as this is fundamental to diagnostics for accupuncture and herbal treatments (which you probably don't appreciate either)

Your sporting example can be put into this quite easily.

Why do you want to learn? To fight.
So you must learn to use it? Yes
And so you must also learn how to learn, practise and gain skill FIRST!

What I have seen on many, many occassions are students who try to force their hand, push in their techs as they have just not developed properly over time. They have jumped straight into trying to use it! That, imho, is not only dangerous but ridiculous 'fast food' type expectations.

There is no quick fix if you want to develop naturally. That, I find, is what having good kung fu is all about ;)

[t_niehoff]

I expected nothing less of you T :D

Again, it's good to hear your thoughts and critique. Thing is, this IS Five Element theory that assists teaching. It does originate from more traditional, or dare I say it, ancient ways of thinking that you may think has it's faults but I know it is a robust, proven way of teaching and naturally developing the human body. Put simply, it fits directly into Martial Arts. Always has, and always will imho. And it has nothing to do with Communism dude! :eek:


Point me to a link that shows this 5 Element way of teaching (that is not a part of your lineage).

And point me to ONE person who has used this theory to develop any PROVEN significant level of fighting skill.



You obviously didn't appreciate Roberts TCM, as this is fundamental to diagnostics for accupuncture and herbal treatments (which you probably don't appreciate either)


I don't doubt that acupuncture is useful in some circumstances. I have had acupuncture treatments (by Robert, no less). But just because the treatment may work, it doesn't follow that the ancient "theory" behind it is correct. It's not. The 5 Element theory is nonsense, it doesn't reflect reality (how the human body or the universe) really works.



Your sporting example can be put into this quite easily.

Why do you want to learn? To fight.
So you must learn to use it? Yes
And so you must also learn how to learn, practise and gain skill FIRST!

What I have seen on many, many occassions are students who try to force their hand, push in their techs as they have just not developed properly over time. They have jumped straight into trying to use it! That, imho, is not only dangerous but ridiculous 'fast food' type expectations.

There is no quick fix if you want to develop naturally. That, I find, is what having good kung fu is all about ;)

No, you've not seen anyone train WCK like they train sports. And this isn't about any "quick fix." The sport model of training takes advantage of how human beings BEST learn and develop physical and athletic skills.

TMAists don't want to accept that -- even though the evidence overwhelmingly demonstrates it -- for three main reasons. First, many people are attracted to the TMAs by the nonsense (they want to believe in the fantasy - like that you can develop fighting skills by not fighting). Second, they didn't learn via the sport-model so they have no idea of how to teach/train that way. And third, the sport-model of training makes doing the activity itself the core of the training.

That last point is extremely threatening to most people in TMAs and WCK. It's threatening to instructors since it will expose their genuine level of skill (that is their lack of skill) and will cost them students since many, if not most, people are attracted to the TCMAs precisely because those arts don't involve fighting. I mean, if you told prospective students the truth, that they can only develop skill by fighting, and that their skill level will essentially depend on how often they take beatings, most people wouldn't take their classes.

[couch]

If you don't already know, I'm a Registered Acupuncturist. I play with 'qi' all day. I diagnose according to old methods in the forms of:

Nature, eg: Wind, Damp, Dry, Heat, Fire
Yin and Yang
Five Elements
etc

With all that being said, I once went to a seminar put on by a prominent WC Sifu. In the middle of this seminar, he started talking about the five elements and how they related to combat and WC specifically. Wanting to call him on his BS, I asked him if the overacting or even the destruction sequences could be used in a fight. 'Of course!' he told me and after I asked for a demonstration, I realized that my money would have been better spent buying the DVD instead (or downloading it from a Bit Torrent).

So. I'm with T.

[couch]

TMAists don't want to accept that -- even though the evidence overwhelmingly demonstrates it -- for three main reasons. First, many people are attracted to the TMAs by the nonsense (they want to believe in the fantasy - like that you can develop fighting skills by not fighting). Second, they didn't learn via the sport-model so they have no idea of how to teach/train that way. And third, the sport-model of training makes doing the activity itself the core of the training.

That last point is extremely threatening to most people in TMAs and WCK. It's threatening to instructors since it will expose their genuine level of skill (that is their lack of skill) and will cost them students since many, if not most, people are attracted to the TCMAs precisely because those arts don't involve fighting. I mean, if you told prospective students the truth, that they can only develop skill by fighting, and that their skill level will essentially depend on how often they take beatings, most people wouldn't take their classes.

The majority of people I meet don't want to train with me once they realize they will have to put on some gear and bang. Case in point.

[LoneTiger108]

Let's see where I can start :cool:


Point me to a link that shows this 5 Element way of teaching (that is not a part of your lineage).

I have not seen it taught in other lineages T. Even among my own family it seems my Sifu was the one to receive this sort of learning. From my research Lee Shing was a trained TCMedicine practitioner and he knew how to adapt that knowledge into his Martial Arts teaching.


And point me to ONE person who has used this theory to develop any PROVEN significant level of fighting skill.

Ok. If it hasn't had the 'air time' why would anyone already have trained it? Other than my brothers (who are now too old to compete!) there is only me. I would have to say though, read the 5 elements that construct Wing Chun. EVERYBODY trains that, it's just the knowledge behind what element is what is missing. Some are not even aware they're doing it, or have been doing it for ages :rolleyes:


No, you've not seen anyone train WCK like they train sports. And this isn't about any "quick fix." The sport model of training takes advantage of how human beings BEST learn and develop physical and athletic skills.

I feel another loooooong debate coming on :D;) The sport model is fine for some, who want to compete, but for me Martial Art is not a sport. I don't mean it's pointless either. Each to their own. But where do you think the development of sport training originated? Olympia in Greece? Or modern day America?

[LoneTiger108]

If you don't already know, I'm a Registered Acupuncturist. I play with 'qi' all day. I diagnose according to old methods in the forms of:

Nature, eg: Wind, Damp, Dry, Heat, Fire
Yin and Yang
Five Elements
etc

So, please explain what you know about the 5 elements and their link to diagnosis. Briefly! ;)


With all that being said, I once went to a seminar put on by a prominent WC Sifu...

:eek: I think I know who you mean, especially if it was in the last 5 years.

Like I've said, I have not seen anyone teach in the same manner I have had the pleasure to learn. I've seen 'attempts' but in all honesty it was pretty clear that their actual experience was not the same and even confused. One guy in particular had a very good understanding of how he used the 5 elements in his diet and nutrition program, but he couldn't apply it to his body and movement.

Out of interest, and drawing from your 5 element studies, could you characterize student sparring styles to the 5 elements? 5 types of interaction? 5 types of feeling?

example; someone is grabbing you all the time, rubbing or pinching your arms and body, pulling and pushing you around without letting go. What element is that?

[t_niehoff]

I have not seen it taught in other lineages T. Even among my own family it seems my Sifu was the one to receive this sort of learning. From my research Lee Shing was a trained TCMedicine practitioner and he knew how to adapt that knowledge into his Martial Arts teaching.


So, in other words, this isn't "some ancient Chinese secret" (LOL!) but something that is unique to your lineage, and you don't even know where it comes from.



Ok. If it hasn't had the 'air time' why would anyone already have trained it? Other than my brothers (who are now too old to compete!) there is only me. I would have to say though, read the 5 elements that construct Wing Chun. EVERYBODY trains that, it's just the knowledge behind what element is what is missing. Some are not even aware they're doing it, or have been doing it for ages :rolleyes:


So, in other words, you can't name a single proven fighter that has used this 5 Element approach to learning.



I feel another loooooong debate coming on :D;) The sport model is fine for some, who want to compete, but for me Martial Art is not a sport. I don't mean it's pointless either. Each to their own. But where do you think the development of sport training originated? Olympia in Greece? Or modern day America?

Where did science originate? WTF does it matter? It has proved itself to be the best way to learn what is true about the natural world.

Sport isn't only good if you "want to compete." It is the BEST way to learn and develop physical/athletic skill. Far superior in every way to the traditional approaches. If you want to "play the game" - or engage in the activity - the sport model is the way to go, whether competition or simply recreation.

You can "debate" until the cows come home but the evidence is in and has been for a long time.

[Wayfaring]

Like I've said, I have not seen anyone teach in the same manner I have had the pleasure to learn. I've seen 'attempts' but in all honesty it was pretty clear that their actual experience was not the same and even confused. One guy in particular had a very good understanding of how he used the 5 elements in his diet and nutrition program, but he couldn't apply it to his body and movement.

Out of interest, and drawing from your 5 element studies, could you characterize student sparring styles to the 5 elements? 5 types of interaction? 5 types of feeling?

Sure - no problem. I can include how 5 elements are used in fighting training:

Wood - goes in my fireplace for heat. Heat is mostly used in recovery time in the winter.

Fire - interacts with wood to produce heat.

Earth - that's the planet where the gym I train at is located. As opposed to Pluto or Mars where many others train their theories at.

Metal - that's what my auto is built from. I drive this to and from training sessions.

Water - I need lots of this to replace fluid evaporation from training strenuously. Hydration is very important when fighting training.



example; someone is grabbing you all the time, rubbing or pinching your arms and body, pulling and pushing you around without letting go. What element is that?

An element of gayness?

[YouKnowWho]

Point me to a link that shows this 5 Element way of teaching (that is not a part of your lineage).

And point me to ONE person who has used this theory to develop any PROVEN significant level of fighting skill.

The 5 element theory is always used in TCMA. When you fight someone, 1st you analyze what kind of fighter he is. You then pick up the right strategy to against him. For example,

Metal - use hard edges to against punches and kicks (Southern CMA guys).
Wood - use long range kicks (TKD guys).
Earth - strong defense, move in inch by inch (Kempo guys).
Water- defense and conservative fighters (Taiji, Aikido guys).
Fire - move around fast with great footwork (boxers).

It's not hard to figure how to deal with a TKD challenger ot Kempo challenger by using this list.

[couch]

So, please explain what you know about the 5 elements and their link to diagnosis. Briefly! ;)


Not being a jerk, but briefly might not work. Three years of schooling is not what I call brief! :)
Here's a good link: http://www.yinyanghouse.com/theory/chinese/five_element_acupuncture_theory



Out of interest, and drawing from your 5 element studies, could you characterize student sparring styles to the 5 elements? 5 types of interaction? 5 types of feeling?

example; someone is grabbing you all the time, rubbing or pinching your arms and body, pulling and pushing you around without letting go. What element is that?

I apologize as I'm not able to do this for fighting. Honestly, I'm a really big minimalist. The biggest problem I had with this is that there are too many factors involved. Ie: if a guy is very rigid, you do this...if a guy comes with this, you do this. That didn't make sense to me in so many ways. I don't want a catalog of style vs. style or technique vs. technique...that's why I fell in love with the 'system' of WC.

Wing Chun, to me, is a simple, streamlined version of fighting and to make it so complicated with all that theory just confuddles my brain and I would think it does the same to others.

Best,
CTK

[anerlich]

So, please explain what you know about the 5 elements and their link to diagnosis. Briefly!

If anyone can play, you can look at the TCM info in my .sig. (no, it ain't brief either). I didn't do the three or five year schooling, but did do a six month acupressure course with one of the first HK and Taiwan trained gwailo acupuncturists in Australia. So I'm not a total noob here.

In my experience 5 element theory does not underpin WC, certainly not TWC. Xingyi, OTOH, is strongly based on 5 element theory. I've not heard of a five element approach to educational pedagogy prior to this thread, and doubt I ever will again.

Five element theory is more than just five categories or concordances. There are the nourishing and checking, Sheng and Ko cycles, to consider, among other things, about which you say little.

I am sceptical of an philosophical approach that claims all aspects of everything can be split into five categories, and that such categorisation will achieve demonstrably superior results.. This does not match observed reality unless you put the right blinkers on and keep them firmly in place. The Illuminatus! trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea parodied this with their Law Of Fives.

The results of TCMA educational approaches (if such a term is in fact justified) are generally pretty woeful compared to modern approaches. Too much blind adherence to tradition, willful misinformation, secrecy, emotional blackmail, etc. etc.

I'd be very suspicious of anyone coming to me with such an approach to training and learning, when demonstrably proven educational models abound elsewhere.

[couch]

I am sceptical of an philosophical approach that claims all aspects of everything can be split into five categories, and that such categorisation will achieve demonstrably superior results.. This does not match observed reality unless you put the right blinkers on and keep them firmly in place. The Illuminatus! trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson and Robert Shea parodied this with their Law Of Fives.

The results of TCMA educational approaches (if such a term is in fact justified) are generally pretty woeful compared to modern approaches. Too much blind adherence to tradition, willful misinformation, secrecy, emotional blackmail, etc. etc.

I'd be very suspicious of anyone coming to me with such an approach to training and learning, when demonstrably proven educational models abound elsewhere.

Exactly. That's why in Chinese Medicine, if a diagnosis doesn't fit the '5-Element' mold, but it makes sense according to Qi, Blood, Body Fluids - the other model gets dumped.

I call the ancients 'pack-rats.' In that they never threw out a theory. The study of Cold Diseases is still prevalent today even though the school of of Warm Diseases appeared later on...both 'schools' of thought are valid in the proper context.

...wonder what the h3ll happened in Chinese martial arts-land?!?! ;)

[Badnews]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u63OJRXyq68


Gary Lam teaches it.....I've also learnt Lee Shing WC as well as WSL/Gary Lam WC...

Same theory, different expressions

[Hardwork108]

For Terence's information, the 5 Element theory is used in other TCMA styles, including Hsing I and Five Ancestor Fist (Ngo Cho), and I have been told that in rare cases in Wing Chun, so what Lone Tiger108 is saying is not so out of this world.

Spencer, if you are reading this, just to say that I tried to send you a private message in regards the 5 Elements in TCMAs, but your mailbox seems to be full.:(

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, if you are reading this, just to say that I tried to send you a private message in regards the 5 Elements in TCMAs, but your mailbox seems to be full.:(

Just email me directly dude :)

[Hardwork108]

Just email me directly dude :)

Ok thanks. I just emailed you.:)

[LoneTiger108]

I'd be very suspicious of anyone coming to me with such an approach to training and learning, when demonstrably proven educational models abound elsewhere.

Out of interest, I would like to know what 'educational models' there actually are out there for Chinese Martial Arts? Could you share some info?

My resoning for starting this thread was to 'put an idea out there'. An idea thats had its testing already, and I believe works very well indeed. I know people may think it's just bundled together, but I ask you to look at Martial Arts and tell me what exists outside of the areas I have mentioned as the construct of Wing Chun?

The 5 Elements are only one of many ideas that I have used in learning and teaching. We named our school The Yum Yeurng (Yin Yang) Academy because we specialized in that field of learning too. Each of the older concepts has their uniqueness and all can work towards the completion of a style or system. So, before anyone starts throwing a hissy fit, have a look around at Martial Arts schools who use the Plum Flower in their logos, because that's a start... ;)

[anerlich]

Out of interest, I would like to know what 'educational models' there actually are out there for Chinese Martial Arts? Could you share some info?


You were the one claiming such models exist, not me. You are the only proponent of such models on the thread so far.

I was talking more general education.

As I stated, I believe the traditional educational "models" for TCMA are pretty woeful, e.g. do what Sifu says, don't discuss anything outside, don't cross train or seek outside opinions, clean the school and do errands for the Sifu and teach classes without reward and maybe you'll get thrown the occasional bone, just teach whathever you feel like on the day and if someone asks a difficult question lose your rag and go to your office and sulk, mix the fighting techniques up with TCM and mystical allusions to make them sound hotter than they really are, etc. etc.

It ain't all like that, but there is too much of it ...

MA curricula abound, even on the web for TCMA. Check 'em out.

If you're talking MA in general, I would advocate reviewing Matt Thornton's I-method and his other aliveness-related training methods. Finding these on Google shouldn't be too much of a stretch. You might read Tom Kurz's "Science of Sports Training", look at some national sports coaching qualification curricula, etc. I read an excellent book on mental toughness training called 10 minute Toughness recently, FWIW. If you feel TCMA and sports performance aren't related (you'd be in the minority IMO) look at how soldiers are trained.


My resoning for starting this thread was to 'put an idea out there'. An idea thats had its testing already, and I believe works very well indeed.

Without objective comparisons of the results vs effort with other methods, that's a judgement call, I guess. What you've put out is a bit light, both on detail of the method itself, and how it fits into the TCMA 5 element theory (e.g. nourishing and checking cycles, concordances, etc), as I mentioned earlier. Having five categories of everything doesn't necessarily mean you follow 5 element theory. Not saying your method doesn't work, but use of the magical number five doesn't necessarily mean it will.


So, before anyone starts throwing a hissy fit

Yes, it would be unfortunate if you or anyone else were to do that.

[LoneTiger108]

What you've put out is a bit light, both on detail of the method itself, and how it fits into the TCMA 5 element theory (e.g. nourishing and checking cycles, concordances, etc), as I mentioned earlier. Having five categories of everything doesn't necessarily mean you follow 5 element theory. Not saying your method doesn't work, but use of the magical number five doesn't necessarily mean it will.

I take your point, and it does interest me that you too recommend certain authors of sports sciences, as this is what I believe to be a good starting point for Martial Art students. Not for the competitive nature of sports, but for the understanding that training is training. It isn't a social, fun activity once you start to train hard and possibly even consider teaching as a career.

As for the magical number 5 :D maybe I should have labelled each section of the construct to reflect what element they are related to, but I thought someone else might just take a guess! ;)

My point is, Wing Chun, the way I learnt it, is intrinsically linked to the older chinese traditions. The 5 elements is just one of the 'power' methods, but it is connected to what I do because it is connected to the Plum Flower symbol (the 5 petals) and even our grading/assessment colours originate from 5 elements. You are right though, you can't just come up with 5 words and expect them to fit in, but these terms haven't just been invented by me. Think about it. Why would I try to reinvent the wheel? Especially since others are doing a great job of that :D

So, here arethe areas again, with their dominant element:

1. Form - Water, meaning that all form has to flow and be seamless. This especially relates to solo practise, whether you're in a form like SLT or practising sets or marching in lines. Therapy should be the first aim of all forms.

2. Equipment - Wood, as most equipment we use in Wing Chun is made of wood! Namely the wooden man, rattan rings, short and long sticks. Equipment will assist in the development of a spring like energy too and your wood-arms should feel exactly like that to the opponent!

3. Interaction - Fire, as any time we contact and train in an interactive way, including chisau, looksau and gorsau we create a friction, a flux if you like, where both participants develop speed and strength together as one.

4. Weaponry - Metal, as our main weapon are the knives and basically the long pole originating from the spear. Metal 'heads' for our pole can also be varied. This also indicates a clarity, not just in Wing Chun postures and motion, but in the styles overall development.

5 - Study - Earth, the foundation element grounding us as practitioners. Study would include anything from History to Modern Sciences, Kuit to Curriculums. This, I have found, is where many schools differ because each Sifu has their own uniqueness and experiences.

I found it very interesting when I first learnt of these specifics, and I actively went outside of my school to research and try to find fault with this age old 'common sense', but in fact I just found more things to support the model. ;)

I couldn't find any other thing we trained that couldn't fit in with the areas mentioned, and when I cross examined other Martial Arts I found many only had one or two elements in their methods. This brought me to one conclusion. Wing Chun is a complete Martial Art. And it is the 5 Elements that help to make it a complete art. All you have to do is a little research for yourselves and you will see what I mean (I think!)

Actually, many of the Wushu schools I have seen also have all these areas present and I see no reason why Wing Chun sits outside the common Wushu framework. Hence, why I prefer the term Wing Chun Martial Art over WCK or WC Kung Fu.

[anerlich]

but these terms haven't just been invented by me.

No, they were invented by some nameless or mythical figure. That's great for credibility.


Why would I try to reinvent the wheel?

Sometimes the wheel needs reinventing. That's why cars these days have alloy wheels and steel belted rubber tyres on precision bearings instead of being stone disks on wooden axles.

Your assignment of elements is very poetic, but still seems fairly arbitrary, and is still just five categories rather than exhibiting all aspects of the "theory".

You might want to consider the five element theory in detail and consider how your approach fits into it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Xing


I couldn't find any other thing we trained that couldn't fit in with the areas mentioned, and when I cross examined other Martial Arts I found many only had one or two elements in their methods. This brought me to one conclusion. Wing Chun is a complete Martial Art. And it is the 5 Elements that help to make it a complete art. All you have to do is a little research for yourselves and you will see what I mean (I think!)


Well, thanks for that recommendation. From what you've given so far, I think I've researched the theory rather more fully than you, including a diploma course in TCM and five years of Xingyi, and my conclusions are very different.

IMO calling it a "theory" is a bit insulting to proper scientific enquiry. Starting with the theory and looking for results to match it is fundamentalism, not science.

[Dave McKinnon]

Spencer,

I don't think you gain anything from gaining it that way. 5 element theory is relevant in acumoxa theory but it takes years to understand it and while not science as T pointed out it is a functional model that works because I produce great results in my clinic using it. However breaking down the training that way seems superfluous at best. 5 element theory, like most things Chinese (i.e. medicine and martial arts) have to retain a functional element. It really doesn't matter that the Liver channel is considered wood except in the way it functions in the whole 5 element system and when designing a treatment protocol.

I do not see how they act, interact or react in any significant way.

However something like this may be more functional: I face my opponent, capture his center line while breaking his structure and changing his reference to me. (wood, fire, earth, & metal)
Face = Wood
Capture = Fire
Break = Earth
Change = Metal
Recover = Water

However T is right, this is just basic tactics used to teach beginners. Application against resisting opponents builds competence and skill.

Dave

[LoneTiger108]

Well, thanks for that recommendation. From what you've given so far, I think I've researched the theory rather more fully than you, including a diploma course in TCM and five years of Xingyi, and my conclusions are very different.

Its great that you're well versed in thge 5 elements. I'm interested to see how or if you have considered what I'm talking about? Albeit a very basic overview, can you see what I mean when we use these elements to identify the true nature of our art?

So then, what are some of your conclusions? What did the TCM diploma teach you? I'm unsure of why Xingyi is important for you in understanding the 5 elements, so please explain.


IMO calling it a "theory" is a bit insulting to proper scientific enquiry. Starting with the theory and looking for results to match it is fundamentalism, not science.

What would you prefer to call it? The 5 Element method?

[LoneTiger108]

However something like this may be more functional: I face my opponent, capture his center line while breaking his structure and changing his reference to me. (wood, fire, earth, & metal)
Face = Wood
Capture = Fire
Break = Earth
Change = Metal
Recover = Water

Another way of interpreting the elements I have not seen before. My questions would be why Face = Wood? Capture = Fire? etc. Are these terms more related to TCM treatments?

Has anyone got experience dealing with or studying pentagrams? Shamanism or Wicca? As this powerful symbol is known to be linked to these 'majik' arts too.

Just wondering...

[CFT]

I'm unsure of why Xingyi is important for you in understanding the 5 elements, so please explain.I'm surprised you don't know about the 5 elements in Xingyiquan. It's one of the "signatures" of the art, much like Yin/Yang is associated with Taijiquan. I'm sure Andrew can elaborate better than I can, but the cycles that he mentions are the cycles of the elements in training and application. It has its own internal logic but probably appear to be mumbo jumbo to the uninitiated.


What would you prefer to call it? The 5 Element method?You are arbitrarily fitting your curriculum to a Chinese cosmological model.

Arguably the forms can be the Earth element since they are the foundation practices.
Why is interaction not considered Water since it too is a flowing, dynamic exchange?

[LoneTiger108]

Arguably the forms can be the Earth element since they are the foundation practices.
Why is interaction not considered Water since it too is a flowing, dynamic exchange?

I can see your point, and on further investigation you will see that they can all be any of the elements depending on what you want to gain from the training. All 5 elements need to be in place to create a well rounded curriculum imho and in the beginning I have found that the breakdown I gave works better.

Water within the interaction is another study, and worth investigating, as is Wood, Earth and Metal! But the basics of contact, the fusion and unpredictability is why Fire is used as the element of Interactive training.

[LoneTiger108]

I'm surprised you don't know about the 5 elements in Xingyiquan. It's one of the "signatures" of the art, much like Yin/Yang is associated with Taijiquan.

I am aware of the 3 main Wushu systems being Yum Yeurng (Taichi), Ng Han (YingYee) and Bagua (Bagua Jeung) but I'm not familiar with how each style utilizes these concepts. I have an idea, but of course I am open to learn more.

This also has relevance imo as I learnt of these concepts within my Wing Chun training. I couldn't say that Lee Shing taught this to everyone, but he did teach my Sifu classical texts that reflect these 'levels'. It's something I think works very well as an assessment tool for any Martial Art to be honest.

Kind of like the Dan (Duan) gradings in Japanese systems. They originate from Shinto and Zen, which in turn originate from Taoism and Ch'an.

[anerlich]

CFT said it at least as well as I could have.

AS for learning more about Xingyi and the 5 elements, you've been the one advocating that people get off their butts and do their own research, like I did. Off you go!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingyiquan

[chusauli]

Originally 5 elements was placed in this format:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.traditionalacupuncture.com.au/files/old5elements.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.traditionalacupuncture.com.au/acuexplained.html&usg=__KWN3M_Y-ySqnEt7OwHGz8-QWydI=&h=608&w=600&sz=111&hl=en&start=0&sig2=0398l2s48TUhlZ9VmTYKBg&zoom=1&tbnid=oQJXl_aeNDg1MM:&tbnh=145&tbnw=143&ei=fFnsTI_XCYqksQPkh4GIDw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dold%2B5%2Belements%26hl%3Den%26client %3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DDo3%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26channel%3Ds%26biw%3D1680%26bih%3D906 %26tbs%3Disch:1%26prmd%3Div&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=165&oei=fFnsTI_XCYqksQPkh4GIDw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=43&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=90&ty=64

Not in the pentagon style.

[chusauli]

Kind of like the Dan (Duan) gradings in Japanese systems. They originate from Shinto and Zen, which in turn originate from Taoism and Ch'an.

Dan systems originated with Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo, and eventually worked into other martial arts. They were not from Shinto and Zen.

Shinto is not from Taoism.

Zen is simply the Chan tradition in Japan from Lin Ji (Rinzai) and Cao Dong (Soto) Chan Sects in China.

Spencer, you really need to do more research.

[LoneTiger108]

AS for learning more about Xingyi and the 5 elements, you've been the one advocating that people get off their butts and do their own research, like I did. Off you go!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xingyiquan

Wow! The invaluable wikipedia :rolleyes: Thanks for the research tip :)

Even looking through what stuff is on here is okay really. Basically saying the same thing I have, using the elements as a guide to what attacks/defence to use against what. But that was taught tome me through my Chun, and the 'feelings' via the interactive trainig I had were slightly different than the ones explained on there.


Splitting 劈 Pī Metal Like an axe chopping up and over.
Drilling 鑽 Zuān Water Drilling forward horizontally like a geyser.
Crushing 崩 Bēng Wood Arrows constantly exploding forward.
Pounding 炮 Pào Fire Exploding outward like a cannon while blocking.
Crossing 橫 Héng Earth Crossing across the line of attack while turning over.

This also is not really what I'm trying to get into here either. It's having a structured method that enables progression year on year, and that is what the construct of Wing Chun has. The 'Learn how to learn, practise, gain skill, use and change' IS a teaching I have been exposed to. And it works.

I will give an example, if you learn to fight (use) without even learning how to learn, what chance have you got? Each is dependent on the next and there are no short cuts imho.

[LoneTiger108]

Dan systems originated with Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo, and eventually worked into other martial arts. They were not from Shinto and Zen.

Originally from the word Duan "phase" in Chinese, I have to say your point here means nothing, but thanks for the History lesson.


Shinto is not from Taoism.

Maybe I should have just compared these old ways. I know how sensitive the 'origins' can be. :rolleyes: Difference between being a hermit and shaman as far as I was aware. Beliefs and superstitions seem to be very similar too. And I would say that Taoism orignates from Paganism or Alchemy but who really knows which came first?

Everyone seems to like wikipedia, so let's see what they say...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism_in_Japan


Taoism is similar to Shinto in that it also started as an indigenous religion in China however it is more hermetic than shamanistic. Taoism's influence can be seen throughout the culture but to a lesser extent than jukyō.


Zen is simply the Chan tradition in Japan from Lin Ji (Rinzai) and Cao Dong (Soto) Chan Sects in China.

Spencer, you really need to do more research.

Thanks again Teacher Chu. Why do you think I'm here if not for research?? Especially when info is so freely available by people like your good self?

[couch]

This also is not really what I'm trying to get into here either. It's having a structured method that enables progression year on year, and that is what the construct of Wing Chun has. The 'Learn how to learn, practise, gain skill, use and change' IS a teaching I have been exposed to. And it works.

I will give an example, if you learn to fight (use) without even learning how to learn, what chance have you got? Each is dependent on the next and there are no short cuts imho.

http://darkwingchun.wordpress.com/2010/11/23/forgetting-the-words-of-our-elders-moy-yat/

I think the way you use the word progression is in the context of learning a curriculum. But this doesn't work in a fighting context. The only way you get better as a Kung-Fu fighter is to keep fighting and have a coach evaluate your shortcomings so you can work on them.

Curiously, what is 'learning how to learn?' To me, it sounds like a round-a-bout way of doing things.

[chusauli]

Originally from the word Duan "phase" in Chinese, I have to say your point here means nothing, but thanks for the History lesson.

Ah, but please understand what you wrote:


Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
Kind of like the Dan (Duan) gradings in Japanese systems. They originate from Shinto and Zen, which in turn originate from Taoism and Ch'an.

What you said is nonsensical. Your sentence above would seem to indicate that Dan gradings originate from Shinto and Zen, etc... hence the history lesson. If you meant the word Dan is from the Chinese character (kanji) for Duan, I would agree. English is your main language, I assume?


Maybe I should have just compared these old ways. I know how sensitive the 'origins' can be. :rolleyes: Difference between being a hermit and shaman as far as I was aware. Beliefs and superstitions seem to be very similar too. And I would say that Taoism orignates from Paganism or Alchemy but who really knows which came first?

All of this rolling of eyes must make you dizzy. (To borrow a phrase from Jim Hawkins :)) Actually I find it a bit drama-queen like, but that's your style. There are many forms of Taoism (Daoism) - you can read up on Thomas Cleary's, Ni Hua Ching's, Eva Wong's, and others' works and get a good taste. Ancestor worship is part of Taoism...but I would not say Shinto is derived from Taoism directly, it is more indigenous to Japan. You can see the Shinto is Japanese ancestor worship and purification rituals. Of course, China had a great influence on Japan and would have introduced the lunar calendar, and holidays would be a part of it.


Everyone seems to like wikipedia, so let's see what they say...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism_in_Japan

Um, Spencer, hate to break it to you, wikipedia is not the end all, be all source of Asian Philosophy... LOL! Better sources really need to be consulted and cited.


Thanks again Teacher Chu. Why do you think I'm here if not for research?? Especially when info is so freely available by people like your good self?

Don't know if you're being sarcastic, but will take that at face value, since I see no dramatic rolling of eyes.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[LoneTiger108]

All of this rolling of eyes must make you dizzy. (To borrow a phrase from Jim Hawkins :)) Actually I find it a bit drama-queen like, but that's your style.

Perhaps I should look into my smilie use? I have often wondered if they may give out a different meaning than the one I mean... if y'know what I mean?



There are many forms of Taoism (Daoism) - you can read up on Thomas Cleary's, Ni Hua Ching's, Eva Wong's, and others' works and get a good taste. Ancestor worship is part of Taoism...but I would not say Shinto is derived from Taoism directly, it is more indigenous to Japan. You can see the Shinto is Japanese ancestor worship and purification rituals. Of course, China had a great influence on Japan and would have introduced the lunar calendar, and holidays would be a part of it.

Part of what I was looking for really was the origin of 5 elements, and my money is on Taoism. The Shinto point really should have been a comparison, although I am still convinced the two 'ways' have similar origins.


Um, Spencer, hate to break it to you, wikipedia is not the end all, be all source of Asian Philosophy... LOL! Better sources really need to be consulted and cited.

Well, that was a sarcastic post of mine Robert! And you said exactly what I was thinking.

The other remark was just an off the cuff number with no sarcasm intended. I have said it many times, when you're on the money you're on the money, and I think you should know the 5 elements more than most as you must use it in your diagnosis and treatments?

It's good to be pointed in the right direction for research, so Happy Thanksgiving to you sir!

[LoneTiger108]

“Kung Fu without a system is not Kung Fu. Kung Fu dependant on a system is not good Kung Fu.” -Moy Yat

A very good point indeed :)

I guess this is one of my dilemas. From my understanding, my Sifu learnt varied methods to teach by Lee Shing and the older ways just clicked with me for some reason. With a modern English approach to learning Wing Chun I felt like there was so much that was unsaid, and sometimes ideas like the 5 elements just seemed to fit for me at the time.


Curiously, what is 'learning how to learn?' To me, it sounds like a round-a-bout way of doing things.

It's quite simple. Learning needs an objective, a goal, and different objectives call for different teaching methods. Learning how to learn for you will be totally individual as you would also come with previous training and experience. So, what I'm saying is, the first stage of learning is how to learn with an objective.

What is your objective to learning Wing Chun?

Your answer is then put into the construct and variations of time and detail will vary in each stage depending on this objective. If I was to take everything through each stage once, I have completed learning and start to practise 'how to learn/practice/skill/use/change'. Then we have skill in learning, practice etc.

It's when you find yourself changing how to change you can see the cycle ;)

[couch]

It's quite simple. Learning needs an objective, a goal, and different objectives call for different teaching methods. Learning how to learn for you will be totally individual as you would also come with previous training and experience. So, what I'm saying is, the first stage of learning is how to learn with an objective.

What is your objective to learning Wing Chun?

Your answer is then put into the construct and variations of time and detail will vary in each stage depending on this objective. If I was to take everything through each stage once, I have completed learning and start to practise 'how to learn/practice/skill/use/change'. Then we have skill in learning, practice etc.

It's when you find yourself changing how to change you can see the cycle ;)

Instead of calling 'how to learn'

...could I paraphrase what you said by calling training simply 'Goal-Oriented?'

What is the goal for this time-period. End time-period. Re-evaluate and resume training.

All this is based on the individual, as per what you have said.

Am I correct in my interpretation?

[anerlich]

Wow! The invaluable wikipedia

It's a good general reference. Also, if you don't think it's good enough, you can edit it yourself. No cause for complaint or sarcasm.


Thanks for the research tip

No probs. BTW, if you regard looking at the easiest available reference source as a first step as somehow strange or unsophisticated, I'd question how much you really have to tell me about learning how to learn.


This also is not really what I'm trying to get into here either.

You asked for info about Xingyi and the five element theory. I gave you a starting point.


Basically saying the same thing I have, using the elements as a guide to what attacks/defence to use against what.

I must have missed where you said that. I read the entire thread again and still couldn't see it. YouKnowWho came up with something like that, although his sophisticated five element approach seems to have no answers to wrestlers or judoka.


I will give an example, if you learn to fight (use) without even learning how to learn, what chance have you got? Each is dependent on the next and there are no short cuts imho.

Bleeding obvious IMNSHO. Like too much of what passes for "deep TCMA wisdom".

You might want to read "The Art of Learning" By Josh Waitzkin. By someone who has achieved at world class levels in both chess and taiji push hands competition. Someone who has actually achieved something rather than pontificating in front of a class full of people about ancient cosmological beliefs.

Before the TNF witchhunters jump on this, it actually turns out to be a lot like Greco-Roman wrestling, underhooks, overhooks, throws, etc. Plus the guy also does BJJ with the Machados, which naturally gives him instant cred.

You seeem to want some sort of kudos for this suposedly unique way of approaching WC, but you've given no real detail, nor indication that you completely understand the theory/model that it is allegedly based on. I've seen nothing that you're selling that I would want to buy, so far.

[chusauli]

Perhaps I should look into my smilie use? I have often wondered if they may give out a different meaning than the one I mean... if y'know what I mean?



Spencer,

Thank you for your post.

Just to let you know the rolling eyes thing is quite effeminate - almost gay, to us NY'ers - not that there's anything wrong with being gay (to quote Seinfeld).

Especially if overused as much as you do, it does make people think that you're dizzy or even queer. It gives the impression that you are a queen (not the straight kind).

But to ordinary people, it would probably mean you were being facetious or sarcastic.

LOL! Its actually quite funny! I'm sure it means something else to you Brits.

[chusauli]

You might want to read "The Art of Learning" By Josh Waitzkin. By someone who has achieved at world class levels in both chess and taiji push hands competition. Someone who has actually achieved something rather than pontificating in front of a class full of people.

Before the TNF witchhunters jump on this, it actually turns out to be a lot like Greco-Roman wrestling, underhooks, overhooks, throws, etc. Plus the guy also does BJJ with the Machados, which naturally gives him instant cred.



Just a comment - the book is a gem and very good - although semi-autobiographical. It explains Josh's training methods from chess, to Tai Ji, to BJJ. I'd recommend it as a good read.

[LoneTiger108]

Instead of calling 'how to learn'

...could I paraphrase what you said by calling training simply 'Goal-Oriented?'

What is the goal for this time-period. End time-period. Re-evaluate and resume training.

All this is based on the individual, as per what you have said.

Am I correct in my interpretation?

Well, yes, in terms of having goals that is what learning how to learn is about, but that also delves into practise, skill etc as they're all goal orientated. That said, IF you're the type to respond to goals, then that way is good for you. Question is then, what goals? And what if I am not goal orientated? How to learn then?

If we are to look at Wing Chun, how do we measure ourselves to this? Why not talk more within the areas of Form, Equipment, Interaction, Weaponry and Study?

[LoneTiger108]

You might want to read "The Art of Learning" By Josh Waitzkin. By someone who has achieved at world class levels in both chess and taiji push hands competition. Someone who has actually achieved something rather than pontificating in front of a class full of people about ancient cosmological beliefs.

FWIW I never thought I was pontificating, I was just sharing some experience and looking for any helpful advice, which you have offered in the form of books, wikipedia and such. And I do find that helpful.

What I would ask you is who have you met who has done this sort of thing within the training hall? In Wing Chun? Who breaks the style down the way I am illustrating? Who even asks 'why am I learning?' these days?


You seeem to want some sort of kudos for this suposedly unique way of approaching WC, but you've given no real detail, nor indication that you completely understand the theory/model that it is allegedly based on.

I'm definitely not looking for kudos! And on here? Are you sure?? I think we all know the only way we can fully share what we know mano-to-mano, so I'm sorry if I come across as having a lack of knowledge in this field. I've never claimed to be a sage of everything oriental and mystcial dude! Just had the pleasure of learning all this through Wing Chun with a, what I would call, enlightened Sifu. I am always learning and do appreciate good advice and criticism, especially when its well intended.


I've seen nothing that you're selling that I would want to buy, so far.

For the record, I'm not doing any of this to sell anything. Never have done, and never will. I'm not a believer of 'filling a class' with 30 people who don't even know why they're there. Especially if they feel that they are paying me for teaching them. That's just wrong imho.

Now, as many have mentioned to me before, I do promote Lee Shing but again I do not teach the way he taught coz I aint him. If anything I am more like my own Sifu, Joseph Man as it is through his teachings that I grew the way I did. He was never interested in my money either! I also learnt within a team, so my own objective wasn't really an individual one.

So, if you were to learn with the objective of performing, let's say as an old Opera Troupe of 5, you would do a better job if you concentrated on one of the areas I've mentioned. You would share the knowledge with your brothers.

At least for your desired time frame anyway!

[anerlich]

What I would ask you is who have you met who has done this sort of thing within the training hall? In Wing Chun?

Most of the good instructors and coaches I know in various MA and related fields have spent considerable amounts of time analyzing what they do and how best to design curricula and training methods to develop skills, knowledge and understanding in their students as quickly and efficiently as possible. That your experience seems to be different indicates either bad luck on your part, or a need to get out more.


Who breaks the style down the way I am illustrating?

If you are talking about "five elements", apparently nobody. You might regard that as a bad thing, but you haven't given me a good reason to think that anyone who hasn't done what you advocate is necessarily missing out on anything important. Indeed they might be better off avoiding trying to fit a square peg (MA training) into five round holes (the elements).


Who even asks 'why am I learning?' these days?

That's a bit patronizing. Most people I meet who have done MA for a while undertake some degree of self-analysis and introspection, and review their goals and values regularly. If your experience is different, I suggest again that that is bad luck or an indication you need to widen your social circle.

[LoneTiger108]

Most of the good instructors and coaches I know in various MA and related fields have spent considerable amounts of time analyzing what they do and how best to design curricula and training methods to develop skills, knowledge and understanding in their students as quickly and efficiently as possible. That your experience seems to be different indicates either bad luck on your part, or a need to get out more.

I know I need to get out more! Bit of a hermit really and I'm quite happy just being with the family and my kids. I'd never considered the way I've lived and trained as bad luck and I applaud any coach for their refining nature, improving methods and taking students through new doors.


If you are talking about "five elements", apparently nobody.

One of the reasons I posted the topic is to find someone who may recognize what I'm talking about. I still think some do. Although I don't think any have had experience using the elements in this way, maybe. I only have a little experience and am still learning.


Most people I meet who have done MA for a while undertake some degree of self-analysis and introspection, and review their goals and values regularly. If your experience is different, I suggest again that that is bad luck or an indication you need to widen your social circle.

Saying who asks why they're learning was aimed at the beginner really. I mean, it's always good to re-assess where you're at as a martial artist regularly but I was thinking of new people. The total novice in fact, with no martial experience at all.

Why are people, and children, attracted to the martial arts today? And Wing Chun specifically?

Many of the experienced guys I've met already haver their ways, like everyone here really! This was just one of my own that I've found beneficial. So I don't intend to patronize anybody.

[bennyvt]

shinto has nothing to do with taoism. From what I have read ****o is based on the idea that a god and his son came from the sky and made the japanesse people. Hence the two rocks with the special rope joining them. Taoism is a phylosophical idea that eveything is made of two opposing sides.
MY favourite toaist thought. ' what is more important a window or the hole"
Zen or cham in chinese is more of a physics idea. Much like string theory or simply the explation of atoms. We are all the same ( we are all made up of atoms of varying numbers etc.
I always thought of the cirriculum as the forms and exercises, I don't see why yopu would use some stupid thing made up by uneducated people hundreds of years ago when we now fully understand (well not fully but more then them) how to teach or explain things to people. We have basic coaching princibles (body cues, progression timing etc), excercise science (how to get the most out of your body and how it actually works), strength and conditioning (how to train your body using the most effiecent means ie learn guides, periodization etc) and many teaching models to use as opposed to going back to the dark ages.
And you may not realise this but I think they found more then five elements, I had to memorize the first tweenty for my remedial massage diploma and there are alot more if you listen to the people that have gone to school in the last hundred years.:cool:

[LoneTiger108]

I always thought of the cirriculum as the forms and exercises, I don't see why yopu would use some stupid thing made up by uneducated people hundreds of years ago when we now fully understand (well not fully but more then them) how to teach or explain things to people. We have basic coaching princibles (body cues, progression timing etc), excercise science (how to get the most out of your body and how it actually works), strength and conditioning (how to train your body using the most effiecent means ie learn guides, periodization etc) and many teaching models to use as opposed to going back to the dark ages.

It's good that you have this view, but I do wonder what other teaching models you have seen in the martial arts? I've always thought of our training as physical alchemy, as we're changing our bodies into a specific 'type' depending on what style we practise. And I have yet to find any modern examples that can match the effect the 5 elements has had on me.

I've said it before, this may just be a personal thing for me.


And you may not realise this but I think they found more then five elements, I had to memorize the first tweenty for my remedial massage diploma and there are alot more if you listen to the people that have gone to school in the last hundred years.:cool:

I was wondering who would bring up the Periodic Table! Of course its great to study new things and develop with the times, as I looked into this in GCSE Science too (when I was 16!) But the 5 elements fit into Wing Chun the way I've been taught it, the periodic table does not! Far too complex!

[Hardwork108]

It's good that you have this view, but I do wonder what other teaching models you have seen in the martial arts? I've always thought of our training as physical alchemy, as we're changing our bodies into a specific 'type' depending on what style we practise. And I have yet to find any modern examples that can match the effect the 5 elements has had on me.

I've said it before, this may just be a personal thing for me.



I was wondering who would bring up the Periodic Table! Of course its great to study new things and develop with the times, as I looked into this in GCSE Science too (when I was 16!) But the 5 elements fit into Wing Chun the way I've been taught it, the periodic table does not! Far too complex!

It is pointless Spencer. None these people have a point of reference. I really wish that they did, but they don´t.

On the plus side, this thread taught me that the Lee Shing lineage of Wing Chun makes use of the Five Element theory, just like other other kung fu styles (with their own distinct signatures), that were founded and developed by masters who apparently did not know as much kung fu as this forum´s posters and resident kung fu "masters".

Anyway, my personal thanks to you for shining more light about your lineage, I really wish that I had been exposed to your lineage when I was in London. :)

[bennyvt]

so because we don't use the same terms as they did hundreds of years ago we are all stupid, dude, are you joking. Having to use that means that you are obviously just rote learning what your teacher has told you. You haven't learnt ****. Teaching is being able to explain in ways that you actually understand. Ill use exercise sience, sports psychology and coaching models that have been developed up to the last few years and has made athletes massively better then the athletes hundreds of years ago. You can use the same stupid crap that all the people that thought dragons are real use. SWEET.
See the differnce is I learnt it in a tradition sense, hour forms, doing slt and associated drills for 8-10 hours a day for about two-three months before
I learnt dan chi etc. But I went back to school and found that all the mystical crap was easily explained and could be improved on. I found it really interesting trying to make the warm up more specific, invent VT drills for speed, agility co-ordination, do biomechanical anaylisis of the forms and exercises to design a periodic plan to make my train more detailed and specific.
But yeh Im the idiot and you are really good cause you explain it like a guy that lived a hundred years ago that had stuff all education and probably was lucky to read.
**** you people are funny:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Hardwork108]

so because we don't use the same terms as they did hundreds of years ago we are all stupid, dude, are you joking. Having to use that means that you are obviously just rote learning what your teacher has told you. You haven't learnt ****. Teaching is being able to explain in ways that you actually understand. Ill use exercise sience, sports psychology and coaching models that have been developed up to the last few years and has made athletes massively better then the athletes hundreds of years ago. You can use the same stupid crap that all the people that thought dragons are real use. SWEET.
See the differnce is I learnt it in a tradition sense, hour forms, doing slt and associated drills for 8-10 hours a day for about two-three months before
I learnt dan chi etc. But I went back to school and found that all the mystical crap was easily explained and could be improved on. I found it really interesting trying to make the warm up more specific, invent VT drills for speed, agility co-ordination, do biomechanical anaylisis of the forms and exercises to design a periodic plan to make my train more detailed and specific.
But yeh Im the idiot and you are really good cause you explain it like a guy that lived a hundred years ago that had stuff all education and probably was lucky to read.
**** you people are funny:D:D:D:D:D:D

Yep, you have absolutely no idea, but hey, if you are happy with what you do, then I am happy for you. :)

[LoneTiger108]

so because we don't use the same terms as they did hundreds of years ago we are all stupid, dude, are you joking. Having to use that means that you are obviously just rote learning what your teacher has told you. You haven't learnt ****.

No, I've just learnt differently than you. And I don't have to use anything, I just find the 5 elements an excellent way to introduce these older methods like Yum Yeurng and Bagua to new people. No Mystical stuff. Just good old common sense.


Teaching is being able to explain in ways that you actually understand. Ill use exercise sience, sports psychology and coaching models that have been developed up to the last few years and has made athletes massively better then the athletes hundreds of years ago. You can use the same stupid crap that all the people that thought dragons are real use. SWEET.

A bit ignorant to past stuffs are we? FWIW I agree. Teaching is all about improving methods an teaching in a way people understand. That's what I and my Sifu have done, and Lee Shing too. Teach a mechanic as a mechanic and a doctor as a doctor. Question is, how to teach a Martial Artist?!


See the differnce is I learnt it in a tradition sense, hour forms, doing slt and associated drills for 8-10 hours a day for about two-three months before I learnt dan chi etc. But I went back to school and found that all the mystical crap was easily explained and could be improved on.

No. The difference is you wasted your time learning this mystcal stuff for hours on end, and when you encountered something better you switched your attitudes and training habits. No biggie. Everybody does that. BUT I have had no need to because I feel that the way I learnt was pretty close to ideal. No mysticism at all and no secret recipe.

FWIW My Sifu has students who have returned to him now that trained much differently back in 1978, man, they even train differently than I did in the nineties!But if they stay long enough they will see the same as I do. Freedom to teach what and how you want!

When I was teaching with him I never had the same warm up, I was researching different ways all the time. When my Sifu learnt he used his SLT for the warm up, so don't think that us oldskoolers can't change.

[LoneTiger108]

It is pointless Spencer. None these people have a point of reference. I really wish that they did, but they don´t.

On the plus side, this thread taught me that the Lee Shing lineage of Wing Chun makes use of the Five Element theory, just like other other kung fu styles (with their own distinct signatures), that were founded and developed by masters who apparently did not know as much kung fu as this forum´s posters and resident kung fu "masters".

Anyway, my personal thanks to you for shining more light about your lineage, I really wish that I had been exposed to your lineage when I was in London. :)

When you return to London we can always hook up, as you know you would be welcome at my Studio anytime dude.

I actually think some people will understand what I'm saying, but as you mention maybe the more traditional martial artists will recognize this more. I guess if you haven't learnt your art line by line then this may not make sense, but the 5 elements are quite prominent in the Wing Chun I've been exposed to. I thought sharing was a good reason to post here, but again I have been proven wrong.

[bennyvt]

big difference between not understanding and thinking it is an out dated way of explaining things.
I learnt no mystical crap, I learnt the way they learnt in YIP's, WSL, Barry schools. Barry, as a westener uses normal terms to explain everything. You don't have to use the same terms, no one on here does, but if you look at it you should be able to explain it use the terms most people will understand. If I can use it and know what it is for then why do I have to explain it like an ancient chinese guy.
See my teach didnt teach any mystical stuff, being a card carrying sceptic and biochemist, by school I mean I went and learn strength and condidtioning, basic sports psycology etc. Then I understood what he was saying. It was only when I got on here that people have to use all the chinese terms to explain something that if they truely understood then they could explain it in their own words. Least hendrik is chinese so when he can have the excuse of not having english as his primary language. Most people just say the words that their teacher says.

[LoneTiger108]

If I can use it and know what it is for then why do I have to explain it like an ancient chinese guy.

... Most people just say the words that their teacher says.

What can you use exactly? You mean you've been passed the physical knowledge but have no interest in learning the culture behind the style?

Well, FWIW Wing Chun is a Chinese Art, so to say that the Chinese isn't required to me is just a little narrow minded. Believe me, I have tried both teaching in English, with numerics (point sydtem) and in Chinese and in all honesty, because I'm interested in teaching the coach, Chinese is a must. For the displays and such the numerics works very well, and for a beginners class it will mainly be in English. With no mention of 5 elements at all!

On the final point, the only 'words' I use that are directly linked to my teacher are the words that were written in the curriculum and kuit. I have my own personality, as does everyone.

[Hardwork108]

When you return to London we can always hook up, as you know you would be welcome at my Studio anytime dude.
Thank you Spencer. I really appreciate your words.:)


I actually think some people will understand what I'm saying, but as you mention maybe the more traditional martial artists will recognize this more. I guess if you haven't learnt your art line by line then this may not make sense, but the 5 elements are quite prominent in the Wing Chun I've been exposed to. I thought sharing was a good reason to post here, but again I have been proven wrong.

I am guessing that there may be a few here who do not post but do read and have genuine interest in the TCMAs that will appreciate some of the info that you and a few other genuine TCMA-ists are posting here. So, all is not lost. :)

[Hardwork108]

big difference between not understanding and thinking it is an out dated way of explaining things.
I learnt no mystical crap, I learnt the way they learnt in YIP's, WSL, Barry schools. Barry, as a westener uses normal terms to explain everything. You don't have to use the same terms, no one on here does, but if you look at it you should be able to explain it use the terms most people will understand. If I can use it and know what it is for then why do I have to explain it like an ancient chinese guy.
See my teach didnt teach any mystical stuff, being a card carrying sceptic and biochemist, by school I mean I went and learn strength and condidtioning, basic sports psycology etc. Then I understood what he was saying. It was only when I got on here that people have to use all the chinese terms to explain something that if they truely understood then they could explain it in their own words. Least hendrik is chinese so when he can have the excuse of not having english as his primary language. Most people just say the words that their teacher says.

If I were you and some of the other modernist "debunkers" in this forum, I would research concepts such as the Five Element theory. After all even during their development and evolution in old China, there were those fighters who managed without mastering and using this theory, hence one must wonder why this methodology is around today. What made it survive? Why are there masters who swear by it?

All I am saying is that just because in the limited TCMA experience of some, such theories sound out of this world, or "irrelevant", it does not mean that they are.

IMHO, those with limited TCMA knowledge should research further and perhaps look outside of their kwoons, instead of dismissing theories such as the Five Elements........

[YouKnowWho]

instead of dismissing theories such as the Five Elements........

The 5 elements theory is very useful. It can make a fight "simple". You analysis your opponent's fighting strategy first, you then adjust your fighting strategy according to it.

[Hardwork108]

The 5 elements theory is very useful. It can make a fight "simple". You analysis your opponent's fighting strategy first, you then adjust your fighting strategy according to it.

Agreed.

Many people who post here are not familiar with such theories. They think that these are "fantasies" or "useless". No one seems to want to admit that perhaps there are theories and concepts in the TCMAs that they don't understand, or can't explain with their limited TCMA knowledge. So, it is always easier for such people to dismiss such theories as "outdated" or "irrelevant".

This is very unfortunate as they are missing out on very useful, not to mention, powerful methodologies.

[YouKnowWho]

If you understand the "5 elements" theory, you can make a fight simple and end it quickly by using the least amount of effort.

[Hardwork108]

If you understand the "5 elements" theory, you can make a fight simple and end it quickly by using the least amount of effort.

Agreed 100%! :)

[LoneTiger108]

I am guessing that there may be a few here who do not post but do read and have genuine interest in the TCMAs that will appreciate some of the info that you and a few other genuine TCMA-ists are posting here. So, all is not lost. :)

Maybe! We will see what happens when I post another thread entitled 'Using the Yum Yeurng (Yin Yang) to teach Wing Chun'!!


If you understand the "5 elements" theory, you can make a fight simple and end it quickly by using the least amount of effort.

Exactly. And very Wing Chun indeed.

Although I haven't really covered this area here so much (if at all!) Using opposing elements to destry an opponent is a very interesting field I researched. You may also want to look into your own 'natural' element of your birth sign in Chinese Astrology, as we all like to know what we are best at right?!

[LoneTiger108]

5 Wing Chun Concepts to REMEMBER!

1. Wu - Defence
2. Bong - Search
3. Fook - Manipulate
4. Tan - Strike
5. Huen - Circling

These conceptual ideas are everything you need to drive the Wing Chun engine, so let's hear from some of your explanations as the 'loose terms' of English I'm using here are specific to my own training and I would like to hear what other ideas are out there!

[LoneTiger108]

The 5 Arrivals of Wing Chun

Forgive the term 'arrivals' but it is simply what we used to describe how the body needs to 'arrive' and what affects this during interactive practises. From what I have been reading here on the forum, it is how I would attempt to break the structure of an opponent and it would be something worth keeping in mind when practising postures as, similar to the six harmonies, everything needs to remain balanced to generate the correct power alignments we have preserved within our forms.

5 areas of the body to concentrate on and be aware of when training are:

1. Hand
2. Head
3. Body
4. Waist
5. Legs

These are also to be viewed as the basic areas of the body to attack or disrupt as you enter into close striking range. It is also said that if all 5 arrivals are broken then the opponent is floored, literally!

This is what two practitioners would be 'discussing' during chisau exchanges. They are a simple measuring tool for you to assess each technique and how best to apply them. FME every hand movement within each set of SLT has a combination of head, body, waist and leg movement that compliment eachother perfectly so as they can be used to attack each arrival of the opponent. Maximum affect with minimum effort!

What do you think?

[LoneTiger108]

I thought I would re-ignite this thread of mine as there seems to be discussion about Wing Chun being 'internal' or 'external' that is as old as this forum! :eek:

I believe it is both, but do you think that having ideas or concepts like the 5 elements included in your learning makes your Wing Chun 'internal'? Personally, I've never thought of it like that but as ever I'm here for discussion and exchange (regardless of what others 'think' I'm here for!)

Has anyone heard of or been taught the '5 arrivals'? In this format or any other?? I would bbe interested to hear Wing Chun experience, as well as any other Martial Art experience that is similar...

[anerlich]

Has anyone heard of or been taught the '5 arrivals'?

I suggest you learn the '5 departures'.

[LoneTiger108]

I suggest you learn the '5 departures'.

Just answer the question my friend.

I would guess by your response the answer is no, so no biggie imo :)

[k gledhill]

5 Wing Chun Concepts to REMEMBER!

1. Wu - Defence
2. Bong - Search
3. Fook - Manipulate
4. Tan - Strike
5. Huen - Circling

These conceptual ideas are everything you need to drive the Wing Chun engine, so let's hear from some of your explanations as the 'loose terms' of English I'm using here are specific to my own training and I would like to hear what other ideas are out there!

1 wu is to make a new attack from a x'ing line
2 bong is to clear line for #1 left to right vice versa,
Like pak sao with forearm if arm crosses over bridge.
3 strike fook is for drilling jum (in elbow strike), lat sao chet cheung .relaxed wrist makes elbow focus to drill,hip,leg,etc...
4 tan strike outside elbow spreads,tan palm makes elbow move out.
5 huen making simultaneous action to displace line of force on your attack in conjunction with other attacking action.

[k gledhill]

The 5 Arrivals of Wing Chun

Forgive the term 'arrivals' but it is simply what we used to describe how the body needs to 'arrive' and what affects this during interactive practises. From what I have been reading here on the forum, it is how I would attempt to break the structure of an opponent and it would be something worth keeping in mind when practising postures as, similar to the six harmonies, everything needs to remain balanced to generate the correct power alignments we have preserved within our forms.

5 areas of the body to concentrate on and be aware of when training are:

1. Hand
2. Head
3. Body
4. Waist
5. Legs

These are also to be viewed as the basic areas of the body to attack or disrupt as you enter into close striking range. It is also said that if all 5 arrivals are broken then the opponent is floored, literally!

This is what two practitioners would be 'discussing' during chisau exchanges. They are a simple measuring tool for you to assess each technique and how best to apply them. FME every hand movement within each set of SLT has a combination of head, body, waist and leg movement that compliment eachother perfectly so as they can be used to attack each arrival of the opponent. Maximum affect with minimum effort!

What do you think?


You missed the 'idea', ELBOW !

Learn this.

Chi-sao is a development of the elbow ideas.

[Graham H]

5 Wing Chun Concepts to REMEMBER!

1. Wu - Defence
2. Bong - Search
3. Fook - Manipulate
4. Tan - Strike
5. Huen - Circling

These conceptual ideas are everything you need to drive the Wing Chun engine, so let's hear from some of your explanations as the 'loose terms' of English I'm using here are specific to my own training and I would like to hear what other ideas are out there!

1. Wu - next hit position
2. Bong - 50% of an attack open the way for the punch
3. Fook - punch
4. Tan - punch
5. Huen - 50% of an attack for recovery.


............my thinking. ;)

GH

[k gledhill]

1. Wu - next hit position
2. Bong - 50% of an attack open the way for the punch
3. Fook - punch
4. Tan - punch
5. Huen - 50% of an attack for recovery.


............my thinking. ;)

GH

funny but I too think this way...:D

[LoneTiger108]

You missed the 'idea', ELBOW !

Learn this.

Chi-sao is a development of the elbow ideas.

Glad you brought that up Kev coz the elbow is covered with the 'hand' arrival. I just prefer to use the hand translation of sau, rather than the 'arm' (which includes the wrist/elbow/shoulder)

Thanks for sharing your ideas too, along with G, as they are very similar, albeit very 'fixed'. ;)

[YouKnowWho]

The way that I understand the 5 elements are:

1. Metal - use your sharp elbow and knee to hurt your opponent's limbs (Hung Ga guy).
2. Wood - use long range kicks and punches (TKD guy).
3. Water - conservative fighter that only play counter game (Taiji or Aikido guy).
4. Fire - bounce around with unpredictable attacks (boxer).
5. Earth - strong defense and move in inch by inch (Kempo guy).

The moment that you have detected your opponent's fighting strategy (which element), the moment that you put yourself in the element that's against him. This concept can make fight simple.

[HumbleWCGuy]

We consider the 5 elements to be Earth, Wind, Fire, Water, and Void. They are a way to categorize techniques and reveal strategy. You can talk about those things in other ways which I usually do, but I think that there is some value in the traditional way.

[LoneTiger108]

Good posts guys.

I like YKWs approach, using the elements as an assessment tool for fighting styles is very cool. Part of studying the enemy and all that ;)

Humble: I see your terms are probably more related to old western alchemic elements? Dare I say 'Withcraft'?!! How do you use them in learning/teaching?

[HumbleWCGuy]

The way that I understand the 5 elements are:

1. Metal - use your sharp elbow and knee to hurt your opponent's limbs (Hung Ga guy).
2. Wood - use long range kicks and punches (TKD guy).
3. Water - conservative fighter that only play counter game (Taiji or Aikido guy).
4. Fire - bounce around with unpredictable attacks (boxer).
5. Earth - strong defense and move in inch by inch (Kempo guy).

The moment that you have detected your opponent's fighting strategy (which element), the moment that you put yourself in the element that's against him. This concept can make fight simple.
An alternate interpretation FWIW.
Metal-don't use

Wood-flexible strength (whipping branches)

Water- angular counters attacking and hitting at the same time

Fire-aggressive... Straight line attacking and defending

Earth- immovability sinking weight

Wind-circular movements

Void-state of no-mind (the goal of martial arts) "natural unnaturalness or natural naturalness," to quote Bruce

[Brule]

Not sure i would describe fighting this way because then it becomes too complex. It's not like rock, paper, scissor. Fight to your strength and polish your skills.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Not sure i would describe fighting this way because then it becomes too complex. It's not like rock, paper, scissor. Fight to your strength and polish your skills.

It's not really like that for me. I have tried to think about it like that, but I don't think that it works. You can't say fire trumps wood or this or that. It can be helpful to talk about stances and fire stances, water stances, or wind. It helps me to describe the blocking as using whipping branches (wood). But yea, it's not the end all be all of anything for sure.

[YouKnowWho]

Not sure i would describe fighting this way because then it becomes too complex. It's not like rock, paper, scissor. Fight to your strength and polish your skills.

I have used the 5 elements strategy many times in my life. There was a TKD guy who challenged me back in 1972. Everytime that he threw a side kick at me, I blocked his kick with my left palm and then drop my right elbow on top of his foot. After a while, his legs were no longer be able to kick me, I jumped in with a punch on his face and end that fight. Through the entire fight, I did not throw any kicks but just one single punch. That was "metal against wood".

Sorry that I don't have any youtube clip to prove this. But the UT Aikido Club chief instructor Steve McAdam was one of the witness that day.

http://blogs.utexas.edu/aikido/coaches/

I was in a Karate tournament, My opponent, a Kempo guy moved in inch by inch with strong defense. Since I could not detect any of his weakness, I moved back. Soon I was out of the ring and lose points. He tried the same strategy again. If he forced me to move back out the ring one more time, I would lose that fight. I started to us long range kicks on him. That soon forced him to stop his forward movement. That was "wood against earth".

Just to share my experience to prove that 5 elements theory does work in combat.

[Brule]

Were you conciously thinking of the element he used and then specifically used the opposing element? That's where i get confused. Maybe it wasn't described to me in that way we just did.

[LoneTiger108]

Not sure i would describe fighting this way because then it becomes too complex. It's not like rock, paper, scissor. Fight to your strength and polish your skills.

You actually hit the '5 element' nail on the head here. ;)

Fighting 'as a Wing Chun' practitioner IS complex! There are specifics used for specifics ;) But 'fighting to your strengths and polishing skills' is exactly what the 5 element methods are good for imho and fme

[YouKnowWho]

Were you conciously thinking of the element he used and then specifically used the opposing element? That's where i get confused. Maybe it wasn't described to me in that way we just did.

It will make the fight simple. The TCMA is all about to find the right key to open the right lock. It will be worthwhile to spend a bit time to study your opponent 1st. Sometime your opponent may have multi-elements flavor. In that case, it will be a challeng to you how fast that you can switch your own strategy.


But 'fighting to your strengths and polishing skills' ...
In TCMA, everything is relative and not absolute. If you always play offense and put your opponent in defense mode, it doesn't matter what fighting strategy that your opponent uses, you just force him to fight your game.

[jesper]

It will make the fight simple. The TCMA is all about to find the right key to open the right lock. It will be worthwhile to spend a bit time to study your opponent 1st. Sometime your opponent may have multi-elements flavor. In that case, it will be a challeng to you how fast that you can switch your own strategy.


In TCMA, everything is relative and not absolute. If you always play offense and put your opponent in defense mode, it doesn't matter what fighting strategy that your opponent uses, you just force him to fight your game.

Nonsense. If your engaged in a real fight you will not have the luxury of spending time assessing your opponent.
you finish it quickly before you get jumped by his friends and other that just want to party.

Now when you go spar, or do challenge matches it makes more sense

[HumbleWCGuy]

Nonsense. If your engaged in a real fight you will not have the luxury of spending time assessing your opponent.
you finish it quickly before you get jumped by his friends and other that just want to party.

Now when you go spar, or do challenge matches it makes more sense

I find that it is almost instinctual to size up people. I certainly create strategies even in street situation. I don't use the elements though.

[YouKnowWho]

Nonsense. If your engaged in a real fight you will not have the luxury of spending time assessing your opponent.
you finish it quickly before you get jumped by his friends and other that just want to party.

Now when you go spar, or do challenge matches it makes more sense
In street fight, most likely that your opponent will not be a MA guy. In tournament or challenge fight, most likely that your opponent is a MA guy and about your level.

[jesper]

In street fight, most likely that your opponent will not be a MA guy. In tournament or challenge fight, most likely that your opponent is a MA guy and about your level.

not my point.
In a tournament or challence match you have time to study your opponent sometimes days/weeks/month before. You dont have that luxury in a street fight. Often it goes from 0 to all out in seconds and you just need to gtfo before others join the fun.

And dont discard some of the brawlers out there, sure they may not have formal MA studies but years of barfight/street fights can make you real tough to handle. Mix that in with drugs, alchohol or mental ilness and you can be in for serious trouble