Forms Develoment Question

[Lucas]

So you read these historical accounts of 'sword dances'. I remember when reading years ago through the records of the grand historian, during the warring states period you would periodically read of people performing sword dances, for what ever reasons. i would assume that generally a sword dance is just a compilation of what ever that man knew in regards to sword fighting, and put it to a choreographed dance.

do any of you think that these dances are the roots to the 'idea' of forms?

this isnt a bout mma vs cma, or forms vs no forms, but more about where the idea of forms in general.

[David Jamieson]

structured choreographed physical exercises in martial arts exist pretty much across the board.

Asia seems to have refined the fist fighting stuff somewhat since the late 1500's

Methods expressed through set movement, short or long go back before that though.

There are manuals from renaissance Europe that show sword techniques and what amounts to forms for development.

check it: http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm

[Drake]

Change the word "form" to "drill", and they might be interpreted differently.

[David Jamieson]

Change the word "form" to "drill", and they might be interpreted differently.

forms is a pretty new term anyway.

Typically, the correct transliteration is "fist law" or "fist method" (Kuen Po, Chuan Fa, et al)

Tao Lu etc are fairly new designations.
Many old style's forms were drills of a few movements that could be learned and used quickly.

forms as a catalogue is a different way than to develop the techniques within.
Forms are meant to be broken down and drilled.

Quite often people do not have the time or inclination to undertake such a path of study. Usually it can be attributed to impatience lol, often it's just petulance though and some stupid sense of entitlement that people have.

Other people reject them entirely for whatever reasons.
It's all good.

[bawang]

form is a dance. general qijiguang in his 1565 book calls solo training as "solo dance"

freestyle drilling of techniques is called drilling. "training handwork" or "lian shou fa". training with a partner is called "training footwork" "lian bu fa"

choreographed solo form is called "solo dance". choreographed partner form is called "partner dance"

forms from southern kung fu also mimic movements and tempo from village magic rituals.

[David Jamieson]

form is a dance. general qijiguang in his 1565 book calls solo training as "solo dance"

freestyle drilling of techniques is called drilling. "training handwork" or "lian shou fa". training with a partner is called "training footwork" "lian bu fa"

choreographed solo form is called "solo dance". choreographed partner form is called "partner dance"

chinese terms for these last two are?

[bawang]

dan wu and shuang wu单舞,双舞

[Lucas]

form is a dance. general qijiguang in his 1565 book calls solo training as "solo dance"

freestyle drilling of techniques is called drilling. "training handwork" or "lian shou fa". training with a partner is called "training footwork" "lian bu fa"

choreographed solo form is called "solo dance". choreographed partner form is called "partner dance"

forms from southern kung fu also mimic movements and tempo from village magic rituals.

thats kind of what im getting at. the dancing.

so, at some point someone had to go 'hey lets take all our empty hand techniques and choreograph them into a dance'

this is documented as being done on a personal level with weapons a VERY long time ago with sword dances. often performed for generals, leaders, emperors and the like performed by accomplished warriors.

at some point it seems like someone figured 'lets do that without weapons'

do you think there is a direct connection to the sword dances in terms of the idea of doing this without weapons?

do you originally think this was developed for performance only and not for training purpose, then somewhere along the lines the line was blurred and the training aspect began?

[bawang]

do you originally think this was developed for performance only and not for training purpose, then somewhere along the lines the line was blurred and the training aspect began?
military recruiters are government scholars and dont know anything about martial arts. they liked to promote and recruit people who give very flashy demonstrations.

[GeneChing]

You see plenty of short stick and quarterstaff in European folk dances. You also see pole arm (like spear typically) in African and Asian tribal dance.

[David Jamieson]

You see plenty of short stick and quarterstaff in European folk dances. You also see pole arm (like spear typically) in African and Asian tribal dance.

The scots have quite a few varieties of sword dances.
Most of the classical weaponry stuff has been relegated to ritual dance with teh exception of asian martial arts which still uses it a lot in traditional and non traditional exercises.

Western stuff has all been narrowed down to fencing and other sports where the weapons have been repurposed into something else (hammer throw, shot put, discus [the indian version of it], javelin, et al)

i am of the opinion myself that if you want to learn the ways of sword play in a relatively economical length of time, then the three blades of fencing will get you there.

In Kung Fu, my experience in more than one school has been:

staff first, then big knife, then take your pick for what's next if you want more weapons study and there are a lot of weird and obsolete weapons in tcma lemme tell you although you already know!

All techniques from the 3 blades of fencing carry over to Chinese straight sword work quite nicely, with perhaps minor differences regarding the finesse stuff.

[bawang]

drilling with weapons especially in unison is very intimidating. thats why people prefer dancing

[GeneChing]

I used to make swords for belly dancers. That was some serious fun. Belly dancers had some unusual requirements.

[TenTigers]

I used to make swords for belly dancers. That was some serious fun. Belly dancers had some unusual requirements.
at the Fall Fair this year, there were belly dancers balancing swords on their heads while they dance.

[Lucas]

did you forge them? what kind of swords did they want? or was it more of a fleshy sword you gave them? in that case i dont want to know any of the unusual requests. :p

[Lucas]

at the Fall Fair this year, there were belly dancers balancing swords on their heads while they dance.

thats pretty hot.

[GeneChing]

I never worked a forge. I did assembly - some call it being a cutler, but I think that's a misuse of the term.

TenTigers is right - it's all about balancing a sword on top of the head while belly dancing, so the dancers would want a scimitar that was weighted evenly - totally off balance for combat. They also often requested me to notch the spine of the sword so it would stick better to the top of their heads. In all honesty, I didn't do that many pieces for belly dancers, but they were memorable as it was something I never anticipated.

[YouKnowWho]

There is difference between '舞劍(Wu Jian) - sword dance" and "劍舞(Jian Wu) - dance with sword". When you do your 劍舞(Jian Wu), you have your tassel attach to the sword so it will be pretty when you dance. When you do your 舞劍(Wu Jian), you remove the tassel off the sword so it won't confuse your vision.

[hskwarrior]

thats kind of what im getting at. the dancing.

so, at some point someone had to go 'hey lets take all our empty hand techniques and choreograph them into a dance'

this is documented as being done on a personal level with weapons a VERY long time ago with sword dances. often performed for generals, leaders, emperors and the like performed by accomplished warriors.

at some point it seems like someone figured 'lets do that without weapons'

do you think there is a direct connection to the sword dances in terms of the idea of doing this without weapons?

do you originally think this was developed for performance only and not for training purpose, then somewhere along the lines the line was blurred and the training aspect began?

Forms go back too far to ever find out WHY they were created or what was the mindset behind the first form ever created in martial arts period. IMHO. It would be interesting to do a time line on the evolution of forms though. i don't feel that forms came before actual fighting techniques, i believe the opposite.

However, i do feel that what was originally practiced was the techniques first. and perhaps FORMS was a method or "RECORDING" the techniques without having an actual manual. Much like ESCRIMA did when the government banned them from using actual swords so they turned to using sticks. By practicing your forms you were keeping the techniques alive but hiding them within a FORM.

I mean think about it, forms a like a paragraph-filled with sentences. each one ends in a period, sometimes a comma is inserted in there. And yes, there can even be exclamation points too :p But what i'm saying is that is when you take a form apart to see what it's all about, you'd know that it's not just a bunch of BS.

Yes, it's a fair but misleading comment to say Forms are a dance. But, what's in them is what i'm looking forward to seeing.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

The History of Forms in Chinese Martial Arts: As Inspired by Bawang

In 1952 in a small chinese retaraunt in San Francisco, two dishwashers were talking about making a better life for themselves. They thought long and hard about it, and considered many scandals, but alas one of them came up with a brilliant idead:

Dishwasher 1: Hey Mang, what do you think we can do, we are two skinny chinese guys with no monies, I want to be rich and have loads of women!

Dishwasher 2: I've got it! We will teach dumb white people dance that we did in Ming village, tell them it is secret Chinese boner dance.

Dishwasher 1: That is brilliant idea, even better is we tell them that if they do long enought, they become killers and street fighters, and can break brick with their big toe.

Dishwasher 2: Naaah, it won't work, no one is that stupid, not even white people.

Dishwasher 1: Well, it's that or wash dishes and clean up sh**it spray from toilet bowl all day.

Dishwasher 2: You right, let's do it. We call them ancient Chinese forms for fighting. Also known as "teh deadly"!

Dishwasher 1: You a genius, Mang. We rich, bit**ches!!!

Dishwasher 2: Rubs Testicles

:D

[Lucas]

im pretty sure that ends with:

dishwasha #2 'rub testicle'

[Yum Cha]

I think its the physical manifestation of "Oral History"

Like folk dances, something codified and preserved to be passed from generation to generation by simple people who didn't generally have reading or writing.

A primer.

[hskwarrior]

The History of Forms in Chinese Martial Arts: As Inspired by Bawang

In 1952 in a small chinese retaraunt in San Francisco, two dishwashers were talking about making a better life for themselves. They thought long and hard about it, and considered many scandals, but alas one of them came up with a brilliant idead:

Dishwasher 1: Hey Mang, what do you think we can do, we are two skinny chinese guys with no monies, I want to be rich and have loads of women!

Dishwasher 2: I've got it! We will teach dumb white people dance that we did in Ming village, tell them it is secret Chinese boner dance.

Dishwasher 1: That is brilliant idea, even better is we tell them that if they do long enought, they become killers and street fighters, and can break brick with their big toe.

Dishwasher 2: Naaah, it won't work, no one is that stupid, not even white people.

Dishwasher 1: Well, it's that or wash dishes and clean up sh**it spray from toilet bowl all day.

Dishwasher 2: You right, let's do it. We call them ancient Chinese forms for fighting. Also known as "teh deadly"!

Dishwasher 1: You a genius, Mang. We rich, bit**ches!!!

Dishwasher 2: Rubs Testicles

MANG, dey rilly need to make a moviez about dis here mang! that right there is tis da real deal BAWANG steelo G.

[Yum Cha]

MANG, dey rilly need to make a moviez about dis here mang! that right there is tis da real deal BAWANG steelo G.

I got two words... Doo Wai

[Hardwork108]

So you read these historical accounts of 'sword dances'. I remember when reading years ago through the records of the grand historian, during the warring states period you would periodically read of people performing sword dances, for what ever reasons. i would assume that generally a sword dance is just a compilation of what ever that man knew in regards to sword fighting, and put it to a choreographed dance.

do any of you think that these dances are the roots to the 'idea' of forms?

this isnt a bout mma vs cma, or forms vs no forms, but more about where the idea of forms in general.

I believe that there is some truth in that. Of course, if you are sword dancing then you cannot use every bad ass move in your arsenal, specially if you are "fight dancing" with a colleague, but I guess these dances did re-enforce the warrior culture and lifted the moral among soldiers.

The warriors of yesteryear had a special relationship with their swords, while in some cultures the sword was seen as a "live" extention of the warrior himself, sometimes even with its own spirit.

[On a separate note, did you know that legend has it that kebabs were invented by soldiers in the Middle East/Asia Minor, through the use of their sword to cook freshly slaughtered animal meats on naked fires? So, if you are going to fight with your sword; sleep, cook and eat with your sword, why not dance with it too?;):D]

[RenDaHai]

Ritual Dances go back for 10's of thousands of years, i'm sure warrior dances do as well, in all cultures.

In ancient northern chinese martial arts we tend to have solo drills. These are practiced in a line again and again. They are often referred to as 'Ba', or 'SHi'. THese individual techniques can be practiced alone or with a partener in application. They represent a standard technique in the style, and in application they change shape depending on the way the opponant is standing, what attack he gives and how he reacts etc.

When practiced alone, the technique often doesn't exactly resemble the application, but it does train the agility and power of the technique.

Typically these 'Ba' would be practiced up and down in a line. Once you have learned many techniques you would say do one line of tech A, then turn around and go back with tech B, turn around a do tech C ETc.

I think forms evolved from this drilling. If you look at a lot of shaolin forms for example often a technique will be done 3 times (left, right, left) then you will do an in between move, then another tech will be done 3 times, ETC.

If you look at the repeated techniques in forms you will find the original solo drills that were used to compile it. Often a form will come with a complete set of 'Ba' to accompany it. These are more useful than the form as they are done left and right and have many changes, where as in the form typically only one change will be explained.

[YouKnowWho]

I think forms evolved from this drilling.
Form was created for "teaching" and "learning" purpose. It was never designed for "training".


what was the mindset behind the first form ever created in martial arts period.
Today I did my drills right jab, left cross, right upper cut, left upper cut, right hook, left hook, right back fist, left hammer fist, downward elbow, straight elbow, upward elbow, upward knee, horizontal knee, flying knee, front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, spin back kick, foot sweep, ... I just realized that I may have created a boxing + MT + TKD + Longfist form.

[SPJ]

So you read these historical accounts of 'sword dances'. I remember when reading years ago through the records of the grand historian, during the warring states period you would periodically read of people performing sword dances, for what ever reasons. i would assume that generally a sword dance is just a compilation of what ever that man knew in regards to sword fighting, and put it to a choreographed dance.

do any of you think that these dances are the roots to the 'idea' of forms?

this isnt a bout mma vs cma, or forms vs no forms, but more about where the idea of forms in general.

fighting moves as dance to entertain soldiers and generals, yes, it dated back to some 6000 years ago and some mural depicting people wore antler dating back over 10,000 years?

compilation of routines were popular in song dynasty.

however, sword dance for ritual such as calling for rains etc, it was well known in zhou (warring period, summer autumm period) 3000 years ago

as soon as people know how to walk, they fight and dance---

in qin dynasty, the first emperor enjoyed sword dance as entertainment---

[hskwarrior]

Today I did my drills right jab, left cross, right upper cut, left upper cut, right hook, left hook, right back fist, left hammer fist, downward elbow, straight elbow, upward elbow, upward knee, horizontal knee, flying knee, front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, spin back kick, foot sweep, ... I just realized that I may have created a boxing + MT + TKD + Longfist form.

oh so you practice CHOY LEE FUT then hahahaha ;)

[SPJ]

usually forms or dance have a theme or focus or topic

so much so for a drama/opera or music

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDpOsBKdJhI

liu de hai recompiled or rewrote the pi pa piece of shi mian mai fu or ambush from 10 fronts

chu ba wang defeated qin's mighty army

he was surrounded by han xing.

at the last moment, he killed himself before saying goodbye to his favorite concubine

--

the music was describing the silence before ambush, fighting with metal clashing sounds, mood of hidden danger, unknown, fighting, anger, frustration--

sadness--once a mighty giant fell--

:cool:

[SPJ]

I meant that for forms development

it needs a theme.

:)

[David Jamieson]

Form was created for "teaching" and "learning" purpose. It was never designed for "training".


Yay! Thanks John.

Very clear.