Training for Speed

[Yum Cha]

Recently, there have been some 'Kungs' discussed, and demonstrated. They mostly are about creating strength and perhaps even muscle memory from my perspective.

What about Speed "kungs"? Does anybody have any particular training for speed, and perhaps focus?

I have one, and I will choose my words carefully to describe it....

Wooden, kung fu training staff....38mm diameter, but any solid staff will do.. I like them standing with an arm upstretched length. Hold the staff at one end, hands around shoulders width apart or less (important), arms straight down, staff parallell to the ground.

Lock the elbows, sort of, and twitch the staff up and down repeatedly as if you were trying to whip water off the end, or trying to break it in the middle. The change of direction and short movement range, and the strain sets up a great burn. You have to lock down solid though, and you have to use a heavy, thick solid staff with very little play, and it depends on length. I've found you need more than 30mm, if you work with sticks longer than you are tall.

There's something about the sudden change in direction and the stress at the same time that works. Any of you more scientific guys have any idea what that's all about?

fast twitch, short range of motion (less than 1 inch in the hands), under load with feedback.

Full upper body tense, Ping Ma horse stance, Grip, upper arm, shoulder and chest burn, particularly deltoids, tricepts, forearms, fingers. Bicepts, lats and pecs less so. Perhaps they are stronger to begin with, I reckon they are more supporting than delivering.

That's just one...

[David Jamieson]

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>_<

Rings, leg weights, weighted vest. Do your drills.

The heaviest gloves you can get for bag work. Do your bag work. I use 16oz (1lb) gloves for this.

Isometric/Isotonic work.

These will help to develop speed.

[YouKnowWho]

In order to increase your speed, you will need 通三关(Tong San Guan) to loose up your shoulder joint, elbow joint, and wrist joint. There are drill to achieve that.

Here are some speed training:

1. Jump in the air and throw straight punch, back fist, and upper cut by using the same arm before your feet land back on the ground.
2. Hit as fast and as hard as you can like a mad man on heavy bag until you can't do any more (about 60 punches).
3. Ask your opponent to punch as fast as he can at your face and see if you can catch his arm.
4. Both you and your opponent have right side forward, you to use your front right hand to hit his back left shoulder before he can block it with his leading right arm.
5. Right after you shower, try to throw a single front kick to shake off all the water on your leg.
6. Both you and your opponent stay in kicking range with both arms down. Try to move in and hit your opponent's chest before he can block it.
7. Ask your opponent to move in as fast as he can and see if you can stop him with your kick on his belly.
8. Try to spin your body as fast as you can and see if you can have the feeling that your eye balls is going to fly out of your eye sockets.

[KC Elbows]

A loose, quick style of footwork that manages shifts in weight distribution well.

[EarthDragon]

the best way to make your techniqes faster is concentrate on the return. throw a backfist as fast as you can, then throw it slower but this time return it as fast as you can, you will see the immediate difference.

[Golden Arms]

There are workouts that over time increase the fast twitch fibers in the musculature. Some of this stuff is hidden in traditional training, (the rings for example) but is lost when the person uses too much weight. Most if not all the videos I have seen on the internet of people using rings feature them using the weight in a way that will likely negatively affect their movement.

[Yum Cha]

the best way to make your techniqes faster is concentrate on the return. throw a backfist as fast as you can, then throw it slower but this time return it as fast as you can, you will see the immediate difference.

That's tricky, it kinda goes fundamentally against our kind of technique, faat ging, where you expend all your energy outward, and become limp, with simply muscle and tendon recoil to come back to its natural state.

This just a training exercise, or the way you practice punching?

We train explosive pulling as well, so, maybe that's got some common ground.

[Yum Cha]

Can you move your hands faster than you breathe?

Lots of people are taught to 'exhale' on every punch, thus, 1 for 1.

Do a 4x combo squeezing 1 breath out.
same combo, drawing 1 in (get that look off your face)
same again holding and squeezing your upper body, but not exhaling.

[TenTigers]

Can you move your hands faster than you breathe?

Lots of people are taught to 'exhale' on every punch, thus, 1 for 1.

Do a 4x combo squeezing 1 breath out.
same combo, drawing 1 in (get that look off your face)
same again holding and squeezing your upper body, but not exhaling.
shhhh! You're giving away all the secrets!!!:eek:

[Yum Cha]

shhhh! You're giving away all the secrets!!!:eek:

Pearls before swine....thanks, I glad you understood. :D

[YouKnowWho]

Can you move your hands faster than you breathe?

Lots of people are taught to 'exhale' on every punch, thus, 1 for 1.

Do a 4x combo squeezing 1 breath out.
same combo, drawing 1 in (get that look off your face)
same again holding and squeezing your upper body, but not exhaling.

You can inhale or exhale part of your lung capacity such as 1/2, 1/3, ... 1/7. If you can divide your inhale or exhale to 1/7 then you can throw 7 punches in one exhale. You should never hold your breath when you Fajin.

It's called 分段呼吸法(Fen Duan Hu Xi Fa) - divide breath method.

[EarthDragon]

yum cha

that's tricky, it kinda goes fundamentally against our kind of technique, faat ging, where you expend all your energy outward, and become limp, with simply muscle and tendon recoil to come back to its natural state.

we were talking about ways to speed up your techniques not fajing.
this is a speed drill, but yes of course relaxed muscle always, tighten to snap at the end while twisting and exploding.


This just a training exercise, or the way you practice punching?

speed training only, I train to punch from the big toe to the fist with a kinetic whipping action, I hit hard as I have long reach I am 6'2 and 239 with little body fat and I am relaxed and quick when I strike then twist "fajing" and tigthen upon impact and try to break through my target.

[Yum Cha]

yum cha

we were talking about ways to speed up your techniques not fajing.
this is a speed drill, but yes of course relaxed muscle always, tighten to snap at the end while twisting and exploding.

speed training only, I train to punch from the big toe to the fist with a kinetic whipping action, I hit hard as I have long reach I am 6'2 and 239 with little body fat and I am relaxed and quick when I strike then twist "fajing" and tigthen upon impact and try to break through my target.

I seen you mate, you're a monster....:D

I guess, in my style, theres's only faat ging...I found it covered speed as well.

There is an interesting phenomenon I've discovered, holding the big shield for lads to punch, is that with Faat ging, if you try to penetrate too far, you loose the shock wave, and it becomes surface damage. You can feel the way it goes through the bag. I used to be a big one for striking at least 6 inches through a target. I think you're pulling back may be something in a similar vein...

Don't hit me please, don't need to know the details, Mamma Yum Cha drowned the dumb ones....<grin>

[Yum Cha]

You can inhale or exhale part of your lung capacity such as 1/2, 1/3, ... 1/7. If you can divide your inhale or exhale to 1/7 then you can throw 7 punches in one exhale. You should never hold your breath when you Fajin.

It's called 分段呼吸法(Fen Duan Hu Xi Fa) - divide breath method.

John, I had a play around with that, and I find it still ties your hands to your breathing, but speeds up your breathing. For me, the teaching is to separate the breathing totally, it becomes more like body tensing as you squeeze out power (isn't that one of those bell armour or some such kind of training?). Eventually as you become more relaxed, your breathing gives nothing away and hold's nothing back, it becomes a natural parallel activity.

[Frost]

In MMA we train it a slightly differently we use short sets of either direct or indirect drills with long rests between sets, we also use reaction drills on the pads and read react explode drills in the clinch.

Becoming faster/ more explosive comes down to two things. First, the nervous system must be developed to contract the maximum amount of muscle as rapidly as possible and the connective tissues must be trained to use elastic energy effectively. This will result in stronger, more explosive muscular contractions. Second, the energy producing properties of the neuromuscular system must be developed to fuel these explosive contractions using the alactic energy system to the maximum of its ability.

The alactic energy system also known as the creatine system or the ATC-PC system, is the most powerful of the three energy systems – though this also means it also has the shortest duration as well., so to properly train it you need to keep your sets short and allow full recovery. First strength levels and explosive strength must be increased, we do this by lifting heavy weights and striving to move them as quickly as possible Once we have increased our strength levels (always trying to move the weights as fast as possible) we then work on the CNS ability to respond using short sets with long rests using either indirect drills: sprints, squat jumps, bounds, box jumps, cleans, snatches throws, BW push ups, medicine ball passes and slams, or direct drills: hitting the pads, the bags, drilling takedowns or throws etc

The key is very short sets, long rest periods to fully recover, and use correct technique at all times, we are working on speed/explosiveness NOT explosive endurance and the methods used need to reflect this

In my TCMA days we used iron rings, poles, f aging work against various objects, seeing how many punches we could throw in a certain time period etc

[Drake]

This has to be Frost's best post ever.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In MMA we train it a slightly differently we use short sets of either direct or indirect drills with long rests between sets, we also use reaction drills on the pads and read react explode drills in the clinch.

Becoming faster/ more explosive comes down to two things. First, the nervous system must be developed to contract the maximum amount of muscle as rapidly as possible and the connective tissues must be trained to use elastic energy effectively. This will result in stronger, more explosive muscular contractions. Second, the energy producing properties of the neuromuscular system must be developed to fuel these explosive contractions using the alactic energy system to the maximum of its ability.

The alactic energy system also known as the creatine system or the ATC-PC system, is the most powerful of the three energy systems – though this also means it also has the shortest duration as well., so to properly train it you need to keep your sets short and allow full recovery. First strength levels and explosive strength must be increased, we do this by lifting heavy weights and striving to move them as quickly as possible Once we have increased our strength levels (always trying to move the weights as fast as possible) we then work on the CNS ability to respond using short sets with long rests using either indirect drills: sprints, squat jumps, bounds, box jumps, cleans, snatches throws, BW push ups, medicine ball passes and slams, or direct drills: hitting the pads, the bags, drilling takedowns or throws etc

The key is very short sets, long rest periods to fully recover, and use correct technique at all times, we are working on speed/explosiveness NOT explosive endurance and the methods used need to reflect this

In my TCMA days we used iron rings, poles, f aging work against various objects, seeing how many punches we could throw in a certain time period etc

This.
I would only add that many make the mistake of, when working for speed, to compromise follow-through.
Don't. All the speed in the world is irrelevant if you can't do enough damage.
The other thing is to understand the difference between the different TYPES of speed:
Acceleration ( going from 0 -100 )
Deceleration ( the follow-through issue)
Quickness.

[PlumDragon]

ALOT of talk in this thread about getting fast, moving fast through techniques or srtikes. But nothing about speeding up reaction time:



we also use reaction drills on the pads and read react explode drills in the clinch.This is what its all about...Reaction. Speed on the attack side comes *simply* with practice of the offense. Building a strong, fast defense through reaction drills is not so trivial, and it takes a lot of work. Once the pad work in MMA goes random, it gets pretty decent, as long as the coach can throw attacks at random as often as he puts the pad up for his students to hit it...

[EarthDragon]

I hear ya plum, we train alot on reading the "Yi" of our partner. this is quite difficult but neccessary if you want to stop reacting to the reaction and react before the action. though Yi training is high level traing to say the least

[ShaolinDan]

Reaction training: We do drills in which defender's job is to match footwork to attackers. Then to tap various strikes. Goal is to learn to see attacks before they come, by movement of hip/shoulder/foot... not sure if this is "Yi" training. probably, but maybe 'Yi' is more internal??? Also do randomized pad work. Toss sandbags for hand reactions.
Raw Speed: Jumping squats, clapping push-ups, sprints, (jump)kick combos as fast as possible, do any skill as fast as possible (without destroying form)...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reaction training has it's place, but all the reaction in the world won't help you if you are slower than molassus.
Personally I have never been a huge fan of reaction training myself, I have noticed a bad tendancy by some to be "reactive" rather than "active" because of it.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Kind of going off what Ronin said, speed is great but if you sacrifice power and commitment it defeats the purpose.

You can train combinations and make them both fast and powerful through the natural course of doing them technically correct and working your speed up as you feel comfortable.

When teaching a jab, it is different in boxing as opposed to martial arts and kicking styles because in boxing you can plant the front leg with most of your weight and get the speed and power you desire from the stability of the front leg.

Much harder to do when someone is kicking that supporting leg you have, so you adapt and plant momentarily until the jab is finished than return to a looser stance to check kicks with.

Both these methods produce a fast, sharp jab if done correctly. Also note that speed and power are inclusive with one another, not seperate.

[David Jamieson]

what frost is talking about sounds very similar to tabatas.

short duration, high intensity, long time off.

tabatas are a once a week thing.

[Frost]

what frost is talking about sounds very similar to tabatas.

short duration, high intensity, long time off.

tabatas are a once a week thing.

Actually tabatas are a world apart from explosive training they are at the polar end from what you are trying to achieve (if anything true speed training is draining on the CNS system and effects the alactic system and tabatas probably the lactic system and maybe the aerobic stsyem.... maybe….depending on how you do it…..(don’t get me started on that protocol again it could take a few threads lol and Ronin will shake his head !)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually tabatas are a world apart from explosive training they are at the polar end from what you are trying to achieve (if anything true speed training is draining on the CNS system and effects the alactic system and tabatas probably the lactic system and maybe the aerobic stsyem.... maybe….depending on how you do it…..(don’t get me started on that protocol again it could take a few threads lol and Ronin will shake his head !)

LMAO !
In this case I agree with you.
If you wanna train for speed, train the way the fasted athletes in the world train.

[David Jamieson]

wait, so you aren't talking about high intensity interval training then.

Which is what tabata training is.

It read like you were talking about high intensity, intervals at low frequency.

Did I read your paragraph wrong?

[YouKnowWho]

speed is great but if you sacrifice power and commitment it defeats the purpose.

Not if you use speed to set up your next move. After 3 powerful punches, you can use 30% of your power on your 4th punch, your opponent will react exactly the same way as your 1st 3 punches (he may still assume it's a 100% powerful punch). This will give you chance to fast switch into your next move since you only commit 30%.

[Frost]

wait, so you aren't talking about high intensity interval training then.

Which is what tabata training is.

It read like you were talking about high intensity, intervals at low frequency.

Did I read your paragraph wrong?

nope i am not and yes you did but not to worry :)

tabatas protocal calls for 20 seconds on 10 seconds rest, done for 8 sets

what i talked about was at maximum 10 seconds of work, with 3 to 5 minutes rest between each set, i e complete rest that is nothing like tabata

the effects on the bodies energy systems of the above are as different as night and day, what they try to is also different as night and day, one is looking to increase VO2 max and the other increase alactic power

[Frost]

This has to be Frost's best post ever.

is that a compliment (he asks suspiciously)...

[sanjuro_ronin]

nope i am not and yes you did but not to worry :)

tabatas protocal calls for 20 seconds on 10 seconds rest, done for 8 sets

what i talked about was at maximum 10 seconds of work, with 3 to 5 minutes rest between each set, i e complete rest that is nothing like tabata

the effects on the bodies energy systems of the above are as different as night and day, what they try to is also different as night and day, one is looking to increase VO2 max and the other increase alactic power

Its like a powerlifter protocol, because you are taxing your bodies muscles and CNC to the max for the given time ( 3 reps for example) you need full recover before the next set, typically 3-5 min.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Not if you use speed to set up your next move. After 3 powerful punches, you can use 30% of your power on your 4th punch, your opponent will react exactly the same way as your 1st 3 punches (he may still assume it's a 100% powerful punch). This will give you chance to fast switch into your next move since you only commit 30%.

I see what you are saying, but my point is if you have no power in your strikes and rely soley on speed it defeats the purpose.

[Frost]

Its like a powerlifter protocol, because you are taxing your bodies muscles and CNC to the max for the given time ( 3 reps for example) you need full recover before the next set, typically 3-5 min.

yep as i said originally you are targeting power , not endurance or capacity so you need complete rest

[Drake]

is that a compliment (he asks suspiciously)...

Yes.
......

[David Jamieson]

nope i am not and yes you did but not to worry :)

tabatas protocal calls for 20 seconds on 10 seconds rest, done for 8 sets

what i talked about was at maximum 10 seconds of work, with 3 to 5 minutes rest between each set, i e complete rest that is nothing like tabata

the effects on the bodies energy systems of the above are as different as night and day, what they try to is also different as night and day, one is looking to increase VO2 max and the other increase alactic power

k, gotcha. it's a different protocol altogether.

so, this method is specific to building speed attributes or can be changed up or used according to whatever attribute you want to develop using it?

[PlumDragon]

Reaction training has it's place, but all the reaction in the world won't help you if you are slower than molassus.
Personally I have never been a huge fan of reaction training myself, I have noticed a bad tendancy by some to be "reactive" rather than "active" because of it.Thats because nobody ever combines things.

Just a simple 1-step reaction to an incoming attack is too robotic, its onyl half the picture. To produce "fighting" skill in a reaction, it has to be a 2-part reaction: Defend-counterattack--one reaction. Once a student can defend-counter reactively at a certain level to any of the standard attacks, then the teacher has to speed it up so the student hasnt enough time to counter attack...like combos. Then the student is performing something like defend-defend-counter, and so on and so forth and the counter is simply part of the trained "reaction". At this point, the student is attacking through the counter...but he is not yet the one "feeding" the attacks.

Just talking about "reacting" doesnt help anyone, it has to be in a well setup drill. As Frost is aware, a good pad holder doesnt just hold up a pad and let you hit and they dont just swipe their pads at your face and make you slip. They give you a swipe or a pop at the side, then put the pad up and allow you to strike it. It has to be mixed up, it has to be random, and it has to be at an intensity commensure with what stresses the student thats being worked with...Thats where skill is created.

[Yum Cha]

In MMA we train it a slightly differently we use short sets of either direct or indirect drills with long rests between sets, we also use reaction drills on the pads and read react explode drills in the clinch.

Becoming faster/ more explosive comes down to two things. First, the nervous system must be developed to contract the maximum amount of muscle as rapidly as possible and the connective tissues must be trained to use elastic energy effectively. This will result in stronger, more explosive muscular contractions. Second, the energy producing properties of the neuromuscular system must be developed to fuel these explosive contractions using the alactic energy system to the maximum of its ability.

The alactic energy system also known as the creatine system or the ATC-PC system, is the most powerful of the three energy systems – though this also means it also has the shortest duration as well., so to properly train it you need to keep your sets short and allow full recovery. First strength levels and explosive strength must be increased, we do this by lifting heavy weights and striving to move them as quickly as possible Once we have increased our strength levels (always trying to move the weights as fast as possible) we then work on the CNS ability to respond using short sets with long rests using either indirect drills: sprints, squat jumps, bounds, box jumps, cleans, snatches throws, BW push ups, medicine ball passes and slams, or direct drills: hitting the pads, the bags, drilling takedowns or throws etc

The key is very short sets, long rest periods to fully recover, and use correct technique at all times, we are working on speed/explosiveness NOT explosive endurance and the methods used need to reflect this

In my TCMA days we used iron rings, poles, f aging work against various objects, seeing how many punches we could throw in a certain time period etc

Nice post, I agree. Universal, not just mma.

The principles are the same, but how we train them is just a little different.

[Yum Cha]

Reaction training has it's place, but all the reaction in the world won't help you if you are slower than molassus.
Personally I have never been a huge fan of reaction training myself, I have noticed a bad tendancy by some to be "reactive" rather than "active" because of it.

( like )...

[Yum Cha]

@ Frost, (yes, compliment here too....)

Doing short forms, like sprints, going into oxygen debt in a less than 1 minute bursts.

You think that counts as:
"alactic energy system also known as the creatine system or the ATC-PC system,..."

I've always thought of it as anaerobic training, like sprinters. The equivalent of doing windsprints. Is that the same thing?

A lot of people are saying something along the lines of "do a technique with encumberance of as fast as you can" repeatedly. I don't disagree, but I think there is more and better.

You mentioned nervous system as well. Can you train your nervous system in isolation, to focus and improve that skill?

Its interesting because Pak Mei uses sprint training, faat ging training, hyper extension and looseness to generate the same power and very close to the same hand as SPM, which trains with dynamic tension and sort twitchiness, almost the polar opposite.

[Frost]

k, gotcha. it's a different protocol altogether.

so, this method is specific to building speed attributes or can be changed up or used according to whatever attribute you want to develop using it?

it depends on what method you are talking about: i am not being an ass here but different energy systems respond to different stimulus but for me the basic premise is try to isolate what you are trying to do with your training programme, in this case increase maximum speed/explosiveness, look at the energy systems used and see what protocals work best for that system

For example personally if i was working on the aerobic system i would work on capacity first: long steady state work within a given heart rate extending the time until i reach the goal of the block which in this case would be increased left ventrical size, more blood and oxgyen pumped with each heart beat and a lower resting heart rate, and then i would work on the aerobic systems power using threshold work at or around my aerobic threshold, first build the base and then work on the power component,

With alactic power the actual increase in length of system is not as important as the power you can generate: say you work for three months to improve the capacity of your alactic system and you get a 30% increase, you have only really gone from say 8 seconds to 11 seconds is that really worth the work? for me it makes much better sense because of the limited ability of the alactic system to change to work on its ability to produce power within its existing framework, where as with the aerobic system because of its enormous ability to change it makes sense to work the capacity first and then the power

does that make any sense?

[Frost]

@ Frost, (yes, compliment here too....)

Doing short forms, like sprints, going into oxygen debt in a less than 1 minute bursts.

You think that counts as:
"alactic energy system also known as the creatine system or the ATC-PC system,..."

I've always thought of it as anaerobic training, like sprinters. The equivalent of doing windsprints. Is that the same thing?

A lot of people are saying something along the lines of "do a technique with encumberance of as fast as you can" repeatedly. I don't disagree, but I think there is more and better.

You mentioned nervous system as well. Can you train your nervous system in isolation, to focus and improve that skill?

Its interesting because Pak Mei uses sprint training, faat ging training, hyper extension and looseness to generate the same power and very close to the same hand as SPM, which trains with dynamic tension and sort twitchiness, almost the polar opposite.

both the alactic and lactic systems are anerobic in nature (ie dont rely on oxgyen to produce energy)

the alactic system only produces power for about 7 to 10 seconds, so any longer and you will be working on the lactic system, using sprints of a minute or so with full recovery would be workig on the lactic systems ability to produce power, working with incomplete rest where you would increase the length of the sprints and decrease the rest time between the sets would be working on its capacity/endurance,

[RenDaHai]

Some great stuff here about explosiveness,

But when it comes to training actual speed, i don't think you can really significantly increase the speed of a punch. I mean, as humans we use our hands in a relaxed fashion all day long, I don't think your hand can move much faster than it does naturally.

But it can certainly move in combination much faster and with more weight behind it.

I always find it is best to find what holds you back and then work on that. For example most peoples hands move well, but their trunk is fairly slow. The Shoulders, Chest, waist and hips can all move seperately, and developing movement and flexibility in all of them i find you can combine powerful moves more quickly.

We would often hold the pads for each other and strike them using our shoulders. Then hold the pads at quite a distance and strike in combination. This way you are focusing on moving the different parts of the trunk of your body which ultimately put the weight into any punches you might do.

This and what YumYum said about breath... Many people exhale like a machine gun, this is not always good. It is scientific fact that the undulation of our breath dramatically effects the brains momentary concentration. Playing with a smooth exhilation during a combo is great. And learning to balance with occasional forceful inhales. Many people try to breath out more air than they breath in, logically it cant work.

One more thing is that many pro athletes will have special programmes for training their eyes. Really. SMoother eye movement and control means you can see the opponant more clearly as he moves. There are plenty of computer programmes available for doing this. Probably even some for your iPhone. Its no joke, it really can be trained, and it really can make a difference.

[EarthDragon]

Renda
so true, when ppl try to pratcie speed drills we subconsciously do the opposite, we move slower. Tah is becuse when we force somethign like we try to move quicker, or we try really hard to punch super fast, we actually tense up which slows our movments. It is said to move fast is to move without tention. however we increase tentio9n when we try to move fast.

I play the drums and the fastest drum roll is the most relaxed the hands, wrists and forearms will ever be, but when we try to drum roll even faster we actually incorporate more muscle fibers which inevidably slows us down.

mantis really relies on speed and we pratcie speed all the time as it is one of the reasons mantis works so well.

my shifu used to say the fastest you will ever move is when you move with instinct. thus you will move before your brain has the opportunity to slow you down.

[RenDaHai]

my shifu used to say the fastest you will ever move is when you move with instinct. thus you will move before your brain has the opportunity to slow you down.

I like that quote.

[Yum Cha]

both the alactic and lactic systems are anerobic in nature (ie dont rely on oxgyen to produce energy)

the alactic system only produces power for about 7 to 10 seconds, so any longer and you will be working on the lactic system, using sprints of a minute or so with full recovery would be workig on the lactic systems ability to produce power, working with incomplete rest where you would increase the length of the sprints and decrease the rest time between the sets would be working on its capacity/endurance,

So, it the alactic system, the stored blood and muscle glycogen and "accessible" sugars that are used before the system starts producing lactic acid?

[Frost]

So, it the alactic system, the stored blood and muscle glycogen and "accessible" sugars that are used before the system starts producing lactic acid?

yep although all three energy systems are actually in use to differing degrees at differing times with the aerobic system always being used, current research has shown that 400 meter sprints, previously though to be almost wholly anerobic are close to 41% aerobic and 59% anerobic


Energy System Power

The body has three principle systems it uses in an overlapping fashion to produce the energy your body needs to survive, to move around, and to try to punch, kick, or elbow people in the face. These systems are known as the anaerobic -alactic, anaerobic-lactic, and aerobic systems.

The three systems vary both in terms of how fast they are able to produce energy, and how long they are able to sustain that energy production. This means that each energy system has a power component as well as a capacity component. You can think of the power component as the size of the engine, the bigger the engine the more horsepower it can create and the capacity is the size of the gas tank, the larger the gas tank, the longer the system can produce energy.



All three energy systems ultimately produce the body’s energy currency known as ATP, but the alactic system can produce extremely high levels of power because it is requires few very chemical reactions to generate the ATP needed for muscular contractions. Fewer chemical steps means ATP can be generated very quickly, but it also means it is capable of using all its energy producing capacity very quickly and generally only lasts 10-12 seconds at max power.

[Yum Cha]

Something else that causes the 'illusion' of speed is positioning. Having your hands in the right position to execute the attack when the opponent responds as expected.

You have to be loose to generate world class speed. Ali's jab...

Our form Gau Bo Twi, has roughly 108 moves, do it in 4 breaths for the aggressive execution, 2 breaths for the perfect execution. A breath is one in and one out.....yang and yin, all that...

You have to draw fully deep, ( belly, chest, shoulders) and exhale fully like a pump.

[Yum Cha]

yep although all three energy systems are actually in use to differing degrees at differing times with the aerobic system always being used, current research has shown that 400 meter sprints, previously though to be almost wholly anerobic are close to 41% aerobic and 59% anerobic

It would be great to see the curve... And obviously, an individuals fitness profile matters.

Can you train the alactic, or just load it?

[Frost]

It would be great to see the curve... And obviously, an individuals fitness profile matters.

Can you train the alactic, or just load it?

here a study showing the breakown on the relevent energy pathways during running

http://www.athleticscoaching.ca/UserFiles/File/Sport%20Science/Theory%20&%20Methodology/Speed/General%20Concepts/Duffield%20Energy%20System%20contribution%20in%20T rack%20Running.pdf

not sure what you are asking you can increase both power outand duration of the alactic through different methods, and also increase its rate of recovery through aerobic training although im not sure increasing its duration is a worthwhile endevour

[Yum Cha]

In that previous thread about "Tendon Power", I think this was introduced as well, as a manner for training for speed.

plyometrics:
http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/plyometrics.html

@ Frost. Right, you don't increase the duration, you decrease recovery time... in a manner of speaking.

Nice thing about the article is that it gives you a quantifiable benchmark. We all know what a 100m sprint is like. or a 400. 15 seconds or a minute.

[Frost]

In that previous thread about "Tendon Power", I think this was introduced as well, as a manner for training for speed.

plyometrics:
http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/plyometrics.html

@ Frost. Right, you don't increase the duration, you decrease recovery time... in a manner of speaking.

Nice thing about the article is that it gives you a quantifiable benchmark. We all know what a 100m sprint is like. or a 400. 15 seconds or a minute.

Well you can increase duration but its not really worth the effort, say you work for an 8week block on increasing alactic power, you start at being about to work a maximum amount of time for 7 seconds before power outage drops, after 8 weeeks of intense work you have increased it by say 30 percent (which is a big increase) you are now up to a whopping 9.1 seconds, hardly worth it really, you can make better imporovements in power output which is what you should work on in alactic training (IMHO)

As for your second point the only cravat is that decreasing recovery time is largely a result of aerobic system not the anaerobic system, so you need to work on the aerobic side for several reasons, not just because studies like this show how important aerobic power is to events of even short duration but also because of the studies that show how important the aerobic system is in helping recovery between anaerobic activities (both lactic and alactic)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just wanted to point out that Frost has become a very good asset to this forum.
Excellent work dude, russian strippers have been dispatched to your location for recompense !

[Frost]

I just wanted to point out that Frost has become a very good asset to this forum.
Excellent work dude, russian strippers have been dispatched to your location for recompense !

Are you saying that when I make all those posts insulting goju and HW108, and s******ing at ultimate wingchuns grappling knowledge I was not being an asset?!!!!:mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Are you saying that when I make all those posts insulting goju and HW108, and s******ing at ultimate wingchuns grappling knowledge I was not being an asset?!!!!:mad:

Who am I to judge?
:D

[PalmStriker]

nope i am not and yes you did but not to worry :)

tabatas protocal calls for 20 seconds on 10 seconds rest, done for 8 sets

what i talked about was at maximum 10 seconds of work, with 3 to 5 minutes rest between each set, i e complete rest that is nothing like tabata

the effects on the bodies energy systems of the above are as different as night and day, what they try to is also different as night and day, one is looking to increase VO2 max and the other increase alactic power

Most of my own training consists of the 10-15 second speed blasts to develop internal full chi knockdown power. You should also never be "winded" from doing this and agreed rest time, (workout at much slower speed in between also works).

[Yum Cha]

Well you can increase duration but its not really worth the effort, say you work for an 8week block on increasing alactic power, you start at being about to work a maximum amount of time for 7 seconds before power outage drops, after 8 weeeks of intense work you have increased it by say 30 percent (which is a big increase) you are now up to a whopping 9.1 seconds, hardly worth it really, you can make better imporovements in power output which is what you should work on in alactic training (IMHO)

As for your second point the only cravat is that decreasing recovery time is largely a result of aerobic system not the anaerobic system, so you need to work on the aerobic side for several reasons, not just because studies like this show how important aerobic power is to events of even short duration but also because of the studies that show how important the aerobic system is in helping recovery between anaerobic activities (both lactic and alactic)

Good stuff, mang. :D

[Frost]

Most of my own training consists of the 10-15 second speed blasts to develop internal full chi knockdown power. You should also never be "winded" from doing this and agreed rest time, (workout at much slower speed in between also works).

very good point i like to do short explosive work 10 seconds or less with three minutes of much lower work in the 130-150bpm range, this way you work both alactic and aerobic, the lower workout between also helps recovery

[Yum Cha]

very good point i like to do short explosive work 10 seconds or less with three minutes of much lower work in the 130-150bpm range, this way you work both alactic and aerobic, the lower workout between also helps recovery

What about the 'recovery' period? I was always taught to not simply rest, but to do something active as you recover, at least walking, maybe with some slow lunges, or the like.

I like the idea of that stagger, in the exertion phase, if I'm hearing you correctly. I've always done the 'windsprint' style of training, to the max, then rest, then again. Its kinda like my 'active' resting, but perhaps more strenuous. I'll have to check the pulse...

Any benchmarks for recovery time? I remember with the 12 minute run, there was a pulse upon completion, then what, 1 or 2 minutes later? You should get back to resting pulse in a couple of minutes I believe.

Any ideas on how long would be the "too long" rest to break continuity of a session? When the heart drops below 60% maximum heart rate, I would speculate..maybe higher?

I'm an old bloke, so I always use maximum heart rate and percentages. Makes it easier for me, I need all the help I can get.

[Frost]

What about the 'recovery' period? I was always taught to not simply rest, but to do something active as you recover, at least walking, maybe with some slow lunges, or the like.

I like the idea of that stagger, in the exertion phase, if I'm hearing you correctly. I've always done the 'windsprint' style of training, to the max, then rest, then again. Its kinda like my 'active' resting, but perhaps more strenuous. I'll have to check the pulse...

Any benchmarks for recovery time? I remember with the 12 minute run, there was a pulse upon completion, then what, 1 or 2 minutes later? You should get back to resting pulse in a couple of minutes I believe.

Any ideas on how long would be the "too long" rest to break continuity of a session? When the heart drops below 60% maximum heart rate, I would speculate..maybe higher?

I'm an old bloke, so I always use maximum heart rate and percentages. Makes it easier for me, I need all the help I can get.

Active recovery is the best way to go that’s true, for me active recovery is a HR between 130 and 150bpm and this is what they suggest for most people, the younger you are the higher your working HR should be, the older the lower it should go, even as lower as 120bpm (this is working in the aerobic zone, filling the muscles and heart with oxygen rich blood and helping flush the system and recover for the next effort)

If you are older than me (im 35) then I’d suggest working towards the lower end of the above HR, 130bpm or maybe as low as 120bpm, it should feel easy it should not be too much of an effort

Normally the suggestion is to get HR down to 120bpm before going for the next set (this range will still be working the aerobic system especially in us older athletes)

So for me a workout like this will start with 10 minutes to get the HR up and the blood flowing in the range 130-150bpm, then I’ll do my first explosive set, usually weighted jumps, cleans or box jumps for between 5 and 10 seconds in length, then actively rest 3 min’s between sets doing lower heart rate stuff in the zone 130-150bpm(shadow boxing, jogging, walking, lunges, etc), ill keep repeating this cycle for the required number of sets (usually 6 – 8) before moving on to my next exercise. Keep in mind the more sets you do the longer the rest should be, so if I start at 3 minutes active rest I might move to 4 or even 5 minutes by the end of the work out, I want to be fresh for the later sets if I am working on speed and explosiveness. My last workout lasted 50 minutes and my average HR was 141bpm, which for me means I worked my aerobic capacity at the same time as I worked my alactic power.

Usual guide lines is 3 – 5 minutes between each set, but for me as long as I am actively recovering and keeping HR im my aerobic zone I don’t worry about the rest being too long, I just go after 3 minutes when I feel fresh

Recovery wise I have been told that fighters in shap should be able to get their HR down after a 5minute hard sparring round to 130bpm within a minute of finishing, personally I always test my 1 minute HR recovery after any conditioning session and write it down, if it comes down when I repeat or increase the length of a hard session I know I’m on the right track

[EarthDragon]

sanjuro

I just wanted to point out that Frost has become a very good asset to this forum.
Excellent work dude, russian strippers have been dispatched to your location for recompense
frost
!Are you saying that when I make all those posts insulting goju and HW108, and s******ing at ultimate wingchuns grappling knowledge I was not being an asset?!!!!

I think Frosts attitude changed for the better after the ban for sure. I now enjoy reading his posts and will look forward to sharing in discussions and see his point towards others without haveing to worry about name calling and rude comments. welcome to the adult side on KFO something not seen often.:p

[Frost]

[Not to argue but I think the actual number of insults I have thrown around in over 2000 posts is quite small (and usually aimed at the wing chun forum in general and HW108 in particular) I feel over the couple of years I have been on here I have offered up good advice on Strength and conditioning, on clinch and grappling, on MMA and what works in that environment and on the street, and on training methods that actually work., Yum cha and I have had some very good discussions on training methods and I don’t think I have ever insulted him even when we didn’t agree, likewise even when Ronin and I disagreed on things, like tabatas I was very cordial (even though he was completely wrong of course :) ) some things do really wind me up, people pretending they know more than they do or try to make up for training gaps with half truths rather than just admitting there experience in these areas are lacking for example…Or people who would rather throw around insults when they cant back there point of view up…...because I have seen too much of this and it leads people on (both on forums and in classes)

I prefer people to be honest , because admitting when we don’t know something, or haven’t really been exposed to something and that we have training gap and knowledge gapsis a good thing, it means we are open to new things and new experiences.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The only time I have ever read frost being less than cordial is when he was giving BACK what he was getting.
Even though he is wrong about Tabatas.
:p

[goju]

i think that lack of being coridial here can come at times because the majority of the posters here are older fellows who have been at it for along time so when there beliefs or views are questioned its insulting to them because they think " ive been training for so and so years how dare you!"

and when you put a bunch of guys like this in the same room....:eek:

[EarthDragon]

goju

i think that lack of being coridial here can come at times because the majority of the posters here are older fellows who have been at it for along time so when there beliefs or views are questioned its insulting to them because they think " ive been training for so and so years how dare you!"

very true, I for one have found myself guilty of the old..... "well it worked for our training back in my day syndrome"

When anyone does something for a long time they want to feel like they have the wisdom and the knowledge only one can have by expereince, and for alot of things this is true, but when people dont want to hear (there s a better way to build a mousetrap now a days for example), whats wrong with the one built in the 60"s goes thorugh thier heads.

Its only the ones who wish to continue catching mice that will listen and try to understand.

[Yum Cha]

Who's Frost??
:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Yum Cha]

Active recovery is the best way to go that’s true, for me active recovery is a HR between 130 and 150bpm and this is what they suggest for most people, the younger you are the higher your working HR should be, the older the lower it should go, even as lower as 120bpm (this is working in the aerobic zone, filling the muscles and heart with oxygen rich blood and helping flush the system and recover for the next effort)

If you are older than me (im 35) then I’d suggest working towards the lower end of the above HR, 130bpm or maybe as low as 120bpm, it should feel easy it should not be too much of an effort

Normally the suggestion is to get HR down to 120bpm before going for the next set (this range will still be working the aerobic system especially in us older athletes)

So for me a workout like this will start with 10 minutes to get the HR up and the blood flowing in the range 130-150bpm, then I’ll do my first explosive set, usually weighted jumps, cleans or box jumps for between 5 and 10 seconds in length, then actively rest 3 min’s between sets doing lower heart rate stuff in the zone 130-150bpm(shadow boxing, jogging, walking, lunges, etc), ill keep repeating this cycle for the required number of sets (usually 6 – 8) before moving on to my next exercise. Keep in mind the more sets you do the longer the rest should be, so if I start at 3 minutes active rest I might move to 4 or even 5 minutes by the end of the work out, I want to be fresh for the later sets if I am working on speed and explosiveness. My last workout lasted 50 minutes and my average HR was 141bpm, which for me means I worked my aerobic capacity at the same time as I worked my alactic power.

Usual guide lines is 3 – 5 minutes between each set, but for me as long as I am actively recovering and keeping HR im my aerobic zone I don’t worry about the rest being too long, I just go after 3 minutes when I feel fresh

Recovery wise I have been told that fighters in shap should be able to get their HR down after a 5minute hard sparring round to 130bpm within a minute of finishing, personally I always test my 1 minute HR recovery after any conditioning session and write it down, if it comes down when I repeat or increase the length of a hard session I know I’m on the right track

quick calc, 220-53=167 max heart rate
x.75=125 So I always consider aerobic to start hard at 75%. I do a bike sometimes and mix sprint and rest over 45 minute run, working on keeping the pusle at 75% during the rest, then shooting to whatever on the sprint.

Same is kind of true with our forms, we do them like windsprints, then stretch and breathe down, then onto the next.

What I'm hearing from a practical level, in a way that applies to my training, is that there could certainly be a 'third' phase, and a 'complete' recovery between?

Boxers train 3x3, minute rest. Minute won't bring you to rest, so I'm thinking 10 minutes between full rests isn't a weak benchmark.

[PalmStriker]

very good point i like to do short explosive work 10 seconds or less with three minutes of much lower work in the 130-150bpm range, this way you work both alactic and aerobic, the lower workout between also helps recovery

yes, breathing time, like walking off a run.:D

[PalmStriker]

Speed is so essential in generating power. I like using three successive double strikes ending in this one shown in video. Power increases with momentum, you feel it and someone watching you demonstrate it will sense it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofr2oWT7KCc

[KC Elbows]

I think one of the problems many have with speed is they can have some on some preset series, but since fighting requires being able to alter plans, many don't work efficient transitions between the many methods in their style, so they drag on the transitions, and everything slows down accordingly. Strikes seem the easiest to work speed on, but overall fighting, phasing between strikes and throws and all, require a good amount of sparring drills.

I don't put enormous faith in exercises that just have you doing an unrelated task fast. I'm pretty sure Yngwie Malmsteen does not punch any faster than any other untrained fighter.

[Yum Cha]

I think one of the problems many have with speed is they can have some on some preset series, but since fighting requires being able to alter plans, many don't work efficient transitions between the many methods in their style, so they drag on the transitions, and everything slows down accordingly. Strikes seem the easiest to work speed on, but overall fighting, phasing between strikes and throws and all, require a good amount of sparring drills.

I don't put enormous faith in exercises that just have you doing an unrelated task fast. I'm pretty sure Yngwie Malmsteen does not punch any faster than any other untrained fighter.

I think people often mistake speed for position. When you step into a trap, the other person always seems faster. Likewise, predictability. If someone knows what you are planning, their counters seem a lot faster than you expect.