How to break a clinch? [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

brothernumber9

11-19-2010, 01:58 PM

yeah. That example wasn't really much of a clinch. When I think of a clinch I think of over hooks, under hooks, neck ties, and body grabs. A Llama Pai sifu put a video up a long time ago specifically dealing with clinch scenarios. was pretty good. For me in highschool wrestling a tooth pick worked pretty good to break up the clinch until one time it broke in my knee pad and stabbed me fairly deep under my knee cap. Thanks, Mr. Wonderful Paul Orndorff, you jerk.

YouKnowWho

11-19-2010, 02:07 PM

there are seveal ways, which clinch are you referring too? describing escapes is so hard to do in words.
SC clinch, Judo clinch, MT clinch, ... can all be discussed.

Both you and your opponent have:

- arms tangled (SC clinch).
- sleeve and lapel holds (Judo clinch).
- hands behind each other's neck (MT clinch).
- ...

Lucas

11-19-2010, 02:14 PM

EarthDragon

11-19-2010, 02:38 PM

OK MT clinch the best way is to release your grab, bring up your right arm and cross it over your opp both arms and down elbow into the bend of your opp right elbow, slam your elbow into this spot to get him to bend his elbow circle your hand underneath both his armswhile slightly turn towrds your left, adn with your left reach around his chin grab his chin and twist clockwise and down to the mat.

double lappel grab is the same tech.
boxer clinch, reach up with one hand and throw your oppents arm behind you, grab the trechea and trap the arm between your bicept and side of the body.
very effective and very easy to do

leg clinch such as the guard is to put your knee into his tailbone arch your back like a cat, this breaks the guard in seconds

or you can drive both elbows into your oppn femural nerves ion the inside of the thighs, this hurts and they release right away

MightyB

11-19-2010, 03:34 PM

SC clinch, Judo clinch, MT clinch, ... can all be discussed.

Both you and your opponent have:
- sleeve and lapel holds (Judo clinch).
- ...

If he's strong arming you with his lapel hand, you can turn your body slightly and allow him to push your gi off of your shoulder so you can get inside and throw.

Drake

11-19-2010, 03:36 PM

Clinches are very temporary. They don't just latch on and stay like an angry hermit crab. That would be useless.

"Got you in the CLINCH! WOO!..... uh, now what?"

EarthDragon

11-19-2010, 04:03 PM

angry hermit crab? now that some funny ****

David Jamieson

11-19-2010, 08:23 PM

you can do a few things.

you can push out, bump and go, reverse it, work in it, underhook, probably a few more things to and maybe even stuff that's obscure but simple. never know.

David Jamieson

11-19-2010, 08:27 PM

Clinches are very temporary. They don't just latch on and stay like an angry hermit crab. That would be useless.

"Got you in the CLINCH! WOO!..... uh, now what?"

If you get good neck control by closing the elbows you can use percussive force to move you opponent around by the neck while using knees or shins.

for instance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W1DK1YyWd0
:p

the judo answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijlh4Aa0R8I

EarthDragon

11-19-2010, 08:43 PM

DJ
please dont post videos like that ever again!
did you see those shorts? I couldnt take him seriously wearing those shorts, and he beat up a gurl to boot!
the second clip looked like Elvis.. and you cannto break that clinch that easy if the guy is using strength to hold on which he should be in a fight.

My God youtube has allowed anyone to be a internet hero...... the invention of the internet was to make us smarter, but youtube is making us dumber!

I think Im gonna punch in the face the next person that asks me if i can referrence my knowledge with a youtube video

Merryprankster

11-20-2010, 07:46 AM

Learn to wrestle.

Learn to grip fight.

Learn to hand fight.

Learn to neck wrestle.

All of these will teach you how to deal with a clinch. Giving a specific technique is kind of pointless. The clinch is wide ranging, the variations subtle and intricate in both application and defense. It is arguably one of the most technical skill sets and ranges in a fight.

lkfmdc

11-20-2010, 11:13 AM

mooyingmantis

11-20-2010, 01:26 PM

DJ
please dont post videos like that ever again!
did you see those shorts? I couldnt take him seriously wearing those shorts, and he beat up a gurl to boot!

You better be tough as hell if you gonna wear shorts like that in our side of town!! :D

Syn7

11-20-2010, 06:14 PM

SC clinch, Judo clinch, MT clinch, ... can all be discussed.

Both you and your opponent have:

- arms tangled (SC clinch).
- sleeve and lapel holds (Judo clinch).
- hands behind each other's neck (MT clinch).
- ...

oh i didnt realise each one of those only had one clinch each??? are you for real man?

Syn7

11-20-2010, 06:21 PM

I think Im gonna punch in the face the next person that asks me if i can referrence my knowledge with a youtube video

could you reference that with a youtube video please????

Syn7

11-20-2010, 06:22 PM

All of these will teach you how to deal with a clinch. Giving a specific technique is kind of pointless. The clinch is wide ranging, the variations subtle and intricate in both application and defense. It is arguably one of the most technical skill sets and ranges in a fight.

hey.... somebody with experience... sweet...

Syn7

11-20-2010, 06:23 PM

You better be tough as hell if you gonna wear shorts like that in our side of town!! :D

you guys act like youve never seen muay thai before...

YouKnowWho

11-20-2010, 06:40 PM

oh i didnt realise each one of those only had one clinch each??? are you for real man?
Of course there are more clinch situationS. Some clinch are easy to break apart and there won't be anything worthwhile to talk about there. For example, since the MT clinch doest not involve with SC jacket or Judo Gi, it's not that difficult to break a clinch. In sport SC and Judo environment that both you and your opponent have sleeve and lapel hold. If you want to spin, your opponent can give you a little push and stop your spinning. You can do the same to your opponent. This is called "dead lock", and to break the clinch should be the best solution.

On ths "winter" ski slope, everbody will have ski jacket on. When you get into a fight, it will be similiar to the sport SC or Judo environment. Of course if you get into a fight on the beach during "summer", you won't need to break any clinch.

Syn7

11-20-2010, 07:05 PM

Of course there are more clinch situationS. Some clinch are easy to break apart and there won't be anything worthwhile to talk about there. For example, since the MT clinch doest not involve with SC jacket or Judo Gi, it's not that difficult to break a clinch. In sport SC and Judo environment that both you and your opponent have sleeve and lapel hold. If you want to spin, your opponent can give you a little push and stop your spinning. You can do the same to your opponent. This is called "dead lock", and to break the clinch should be the best solution.

On ths "winter" ski slope, everbody will have ski jacket on. When you get into a fight, it will be similiar to the sport SC or Judo environment. Of course if you get into a fight on the beach during "summer", you won't need to break any clinch.

yeah but you cant do alot of those techs with civilian clothes on..., ever tried a sleeve choke with a sweatshirt? doesnt work well at all... you just tear ur clothes up and lose position...

On ths "winter" ski slope, everbody will have ski jacket on. When you get into a fight, it will be similiar to the sport SC or Judo environment.

you really believe that dont you.............

Giving a specific technique is kind of pointless. The clinch is wide ranging, the variations subtle and intricate in both application and defense. It is arguably one of the most technical skill sets and ranges in a fight.

again, the double colllar tie, aka the plum, is not specific to muay thai and only took on that name(MT clinch) because uneducated fans didnt know what else to call it...

David Jamieson

11-20-2010, 07:28 PM

Went to the Judo Ontario tourney today.

Clinches were broken all day long.

Mostly with hip tosses.

:D True Story!

YouKnowWho

11-20-2010, 07:31 PM

you really believe that dont you.

If your opponent has heavy jacket on, you can take a lot of advantage if you know how to.

Syn7

11-20-2010, 07:52 PM

If your opponent has heavy jacket on, you can take a lot of advantage if you know how to.

fair enough... but its not like a gi... they are puffy, they tear easy, they arent made for fighting in like a gi is... you'd be better off to use it against them NHL style...

yesterday we were rolling, on the fly, in civies... a friend of mine who only trains in a gi tore his clothes to shreds over a short period... i just wore a wifebeater and track pants... my clothes were fine after, and i did just fine without needing to resort to grabbing clothes...

i train no gi most of the time, i feel its more realistic to real life situations... also my grappling experience started with highschool wrestling... a place where you get pinned down by five guys and have "b!tch" written across ur forhead if you keep grabbing clothes...

Syn7

11-20-2010, 07:53 PM

Went to the Judo Ontario tourney today.

Clinches were broken all day long.

Mostly with hip tosses.

:D True Story!

nice... who won??? anyone special???

Peaceful Orchid

11-20-2010, 09:06 PM

i train no gi most of the time, i feel its more realistic to real life situations... also my grappling experience started with highschool wrestling... a place where you get pinned down by five guys and have "b!tch" written across ur forhead if you keep grabbing clothes...

Clothing is great for choking people out.

SoCo KungFu

11-20-2010, 09:22 PM

Clothing is great for choking people out.

Fabric stretches and rips or its too poofy and compresses absorbing the force that should be going into the neck. Its not good at all.

Syn7

11-20-2010, 09:23 PM

Clothing is great for choking people out.

belts are handy... to grab and hold on to... real belts i mean... not gi belts...

im just not a clothes grabber... i find it to be unreliable most of the time...

but ur right, i can think of a million way to choke somebody out with a t-shirt... i'd still prolly use my arm anyways... in a real fight, if i grab clothes its coz i went to grab more aND ONLY CAME UP WITH CLOTHES... so you improvise, do what ya gotta do... but no, i dont like grabbing clothes... i prefer a single collar tie and wrist control over a lapel and sleeve grab anyday...

David Jamieson

11-20-2010, 09:36 PM

nice... who won??? anyone special???

There were 3 national team guys there but they were promoting the sport and not competing.

My wife's cousin was competing and won his matches.

Peaceful Orchid

11-20-2010, 10:18 PM

Fabric stretches and rips or its too poofy and compresses absorbing the force that should be going into the neck. Its not good at all.

Rope is a fabric... seems to work pretty well for hanging people without absorbing force.

EarthDragon

11-20-2010, 10:27 PM

sny7

i train no gi most of the time, i feel its more realistic to real life situations...
so in real life you walk around with no shirt on? or are you just talking about no heavy type clothing?

99% of the fights I have been in are in a concert, club or bar with only a shirt. Only once go into a scuffle at the beach in all my years. although alot of confromtations happnen outside when you have jackets on.

also my grappling experience started with highschool wrestling... a place where you get pinned down by five guys and have "b!tch" written across ur forhead if you keep grabbing clothes...

no worries alot of kids get picked on in high school.

Frost

11-21-2010, 05:48 AM

sny7

so in real life you walk around with no shirt on?

99% of the fights I have been in are in a concert, club or bar. only once go into ascuffle at teh beach in all my years.

no worries alot of kids get picked on in high school.

no gi transfers better to gi than gi tranfers to no gi, thats a simple fact,

Underhooks over hooks, head cotnrol or work well clothes or no clothes, it is NOT the same the other way around,

APart from this listen to merryprankster he is a BJJ black belt, wrestler and has fought MMA he is always right where grappling is concerned, the clinch is the hardest area to learn and it takes hands on expereince to learn it

EarthDragon

11-21-2010, 08:50 AM

frost

no gi transfers better to gi than gi tranfers to no gi, thats a simple fact,

Underhooks over hooks, head cotnrol or work well clothes or no clothes, it is NOT the same the other way around,

I agree, we do SC and for some of the throws I made my students get SC uniforms cuz you need to be able to grab the thick woven lappels to perform the throw. You just cant do them with a tshirt.
however Gi do get in the way and i am a firm believer you train how your fight.
I remember UFC 3 or 4 where kimo used Joyce's gi to chock him, they dont have much give and can be cumbersome when training for sure. esp when they come untied

APart from this listen to merryprankster he is a BJJ black belt, wrestler and has fought MMA he is always right where grappling is concerned, the clinch is the hardest area to learn and it takes hands on expereince to learn it

I am just begining to understand and appriciate Bjj I am leanring from one of he best and its a chess game to say the least. when we roll everthing I know in my 30 years of MA gets used againts me. I tend to rush and over power and strike my way out from my partners tech but I tend to find myself in predicaments I dont like to be in.

Peaceful Orchid

11-21-2010, 09:30 AM

no gi transfers better to gi than gi tranfers to no gi, thats a simple fact,

Underhooks over hooks, head cotnrol or work well clothes or no clothes, it is NOT the same the other way around,

APart from this listen to merryprankster he is a BJJ black belt, wrestler and has fought MMA he is always right where grappling is concerned, the clinch is the hardest area to learn and it takes hands on expereince to learn it

The majority of Abu Dhabi (no-gi sub grappling) world champions come from a gi background.

The majority of gi champions come also come from a gi background.

This would support the case that it is actually the opposite of what you are suggesting.

Frost

11-21-2010, 09:39 AM

The majority of Abu Dhabi (no-gi sub grappling) world champions come from a gi background.

The majority of gi champions come also come from a gi background.

This would support the case that it is actually the opposite of what you are suggesting.

Nope actually they come from a BJJ back ground, not sambo, shau jow or judo back ground (all of whom use a gi) which would suggest that the best submission grapplers actually are BJJ guys, and the BJJ is the best form of submission grappling out there gi or no gi

Are you suggesting that the grips you us in BJJ and judo for both submission and throws can be used no gi without real modification?

Or are you suggesting that you cant use underhooks, overhooks, arm drags, 2 on 1's, head locks, with a gi?

Peaceful Orchid

11-21-2010, 09:45 AM

Are you suggesting that the grips you us in BJJ and judo for both submission and throws can be used no gi without real modification?

Or are you suggesting that you cant use underhooks, overhooks, arm drags, 2 on 1's, head locks, with a gi?

I'm suggesting that it is easier to transfer gi skills to no gi than it is to transfer no gi to gi skills.

Each needs modification, though.

Frost

11-21-2010, 09:49 AM

I'm suggesting that it is easier to transfer gi skills to no gi than it is to transfer no gi to gi skills.

Each needs modification, though.

id say the other way around, i can use under hooks, ****zers are drags overhooks etc clothed, wearing a coat, in a t-shirt or topless, i cant use gi throws and controls without similar clothes to wear,

Frost

11-21-2010, 09:50 AM

frost
I am just begining to understand and appriciate Bjj I am leanring from one of he best and its a chess game to say the least. when we roll everthing I know in my 30 years of MA gets used againts me. I tend to rush and over power and strike my way out from my partners tech but I tend to find myself in predicaments I dont like to be in.

yep you are finding out what alot of us found out, the ground is an alien realm which no amount of standing work can help you with

Drake

11-21-2010, 09:55 AM

SoCo KungFu

11-21-2010, 09:57 AM

Rope is a fabric... seems to work pretty well for hanging people without absorbing force.

Rope isn't lining the neck of your t-shirt now is it genius?

David Jamieson

11-21-2010, 10:00 AM

Rope isn't lining the neck of your t-shirt now is it genius?

depends if he's a travelling man . lol :p

David Jamieson

11-21-2010, 10:01 AM

The clinch is one of those things you really have to do against a resisting opponent to get anywhere in learning it. You'll never, ever get it otherwise. Not through books, demos, drills, or forms. That's just the way it is.

This is true, but I would say that in an Aristitolian fashion, everything we are taught we learn by doing. :)

Peaceful Orchid

11-21-2010, 10:03 AM

Rope isn't lining the neck of your t-shirt now is it genius?

T-shirts can easily be gripped so that they are bunched and rolled into a rope fashion when choking.

SoCo KungFu

11-21-2010, 10:32 AM

T-shirts can easily be gripped so that they are bunched and rolled into a rope fashion when choking.

Bahahahahahahahahahaha Oh I'm sorry my hot chocolate just shot out my nose on this. This is almost as good as your 3 vs 1 destroy knee kick while simultaneously back mount choke defense. Wow.....oh it hurts to laugh now....that little spot in the back of your neck and occipital....ha haha ha...

EarthDragon

11-21-2010, 10:33 AM

drake

The clinch is one of those things you really have to do against a resisting opponent to get anywhere in learning it. You'll never, ever get it otherwise. Not through books, demos, drills, or forms. That's just the way it is.

everything you do in MA chinese or others, must be done against a resisting opponent.Otherwise how do you know it works?

This is the stupidest statment I have heard on this board, (not saiyn you are stupid drake) but it started with knifefighter always saying and assuming TCMA or any MA doesnt use resisitance when training.
Thats like having a race car and saying its fast but never racing against another car to prove how fast OR not you car is......not just th clinch.

perhaps too many people dont train this way anymore which is why kung fu got some sort of bad rap over the years.

Peaceful Orchid

11-21-2010, 10:40 AM

Bahahahahahahahahahaha Oh I'm sorry my hot chocolate just shot out my nose on this. This is almost as good as your 3 vs 1 destroy knee kick while simultaneously back mount choke defense. Wow.....oh it hurts to laugh now....that little spot in the back of your neck and occipital....ha haha ha...

That's funny. My hot chocolate also shot out my nose when you said clothing "took too much force" and couldn't be used for choking.

SoCo KungFu

11-21-2010, 10:40 AM

perhaps too many people dont train this way anymore which is why kung fu got some sort of bad rap over the years.

Not just training. Too many sifu teach this way. Too many lets all get a trophy and be happy soccer moms look for this. And this is why those that wish to actually get better at fighting or self defense, you know the original intent of the art, go someplace else like MMA. And that just makes it even worse. When all there is to spar against are a bunch of timid girls and pasty skinny emo kids, its not a very good breeding ground for a fighter yeah?

SoCo KungFu

11-21-2010, 10:43 AM

That's funny. My hot chocolate also shot out my nose when you said clothing "took too much force" and couldn't be used for choking.

Tell ya what try go ahead. As someone that started out in gi bjj then moved to mma (as far as grappling is concerned), I have. Guess what dunce? Elastic stretches, go figure. It doesn't work. Everything you say here just screams, "I don't really train!" Or you can continue to be an idiot. Either way don't mean much to me.

Peaceful Orchid

11-21-2010, 10:47 AM

Tell ya what try go ahead. As someone that started out in gi bjj then moved to mma (as far as grappling is concerned), I have. Guess what dunce? Elastic stretches, go figure. It doesn't work. Everything you say here just screams, "I don't really train!" Or you can continue to be an idiot. Either way don't mean much to me.

Elastic? What elastic? Where is elastic?

Sounds like you are the one who doesn't train.

kungfoozer

11-21-2010, 10:55 AM

You could find every way(theory) on how to break a certain clinch position in any number of books. The exact ways aren't important because they are specific to the people and the situation. Training in the clinch and making them work is most important.

For those of you intent on specific video techniques:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCK_0Tk1XbE

SoCo KungFu

11-21-2010, 11:08 AM

Elastic? What elastic? Where is elastic?

Sounds like you are the one who doesn't train.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4500/w00towlsphotonew.jpg

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6018/nerdtshirtp235215313298.jpg

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/3470/firefoxtshirtgirl.jpg

Drake

11-21-2010, 11:39 AM

This is true, but I would say that in an Aristitolian fashion, everything we are taught we learn by doing. :)

The point is, the guy has to be able to fight back, or else it seems MUCH easier than what you'll actually be doing. ANYONE can get a clinch on someone just standing there. For my certification, I had the pleasure of being repeatedly punched in the head by my opponent, as well as them knowing what I was trying to do, and resisiting and moving. Not even the same universe going against a compliant opponent.

Peaceful Orchid

11-21-2010, 12:14 PM

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4500/w00towlsphotonew.jpg

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6018/nerdtshirtp235215313298.jpg

1- Most t-shirts don't have elastic in the neck area. It's simply thicker material.

2- You must not have trained gi much if you never learned to bunch up the material to get a better grip and make your chokes more effective.

YouKnowWho

11-21-2010, 02:04 PM

The no-gi throw is a subset of the gi throw. If you come from

- no-gi environment, you may not know how to take advantage on gi. The gi will make your pulling easier which you don't have in no-gi evironment.
- gi environment, you may not know how to apply some of the throws in no-gi environment.

Violent Designs

11-21-2010, 02:35 PM

there is no such thing technique called "Thai Plum."

plum just means to wrestle/pommel in Thai.

it's a stupid ****in name thanks to morons.

and now everythign thinks the double neck tie is called "the plum."

it's like calling BJJ guard "the Brazilian luta"

YouKnowWho

11-21-2010, 02:40 PM

double neck tie

The "double neck tie" is like the Judo "double lapels hold", it gives too much freedom to your opponent's arms.

lkfmdc

11-21-2010, 02:42 PM

The "double neck tie" is like the Judo "double lapels hold", it gives too much freedom to your opponent's arms.

this post tells me you have never done it with someone who really knows how to do this

Honestly, at this point this thread is so screwed up, no point in trying to save it, but it had potential :(

Violent Designs

11-21-2010, 02:53 PM

The "double neck tie" is like the Judo "double lapels hold", it gives too much freedom to your opponent's arms.

well, that depends on skill and skill relative to the opponent i would think.

but this is NOT "the dominant" position in Muay Thai.

unlike most people who just watch some MMA believe.

or people that don't know too much technical Muay Thai.

there are a lot of other positions some better/worse than others but it depend ont he situation honestly. and what you are trying to do.

double neck tie is just ONE TECHNIQUE out of many techs.

PERSONALLY I prefer one arm control one neck tie, or forearm bridge to the neck instead, and one hand underhook.

but that's just me.

YouKnowWho

11-21-2010, 03:35 PM

PERSONALLY I prefer one arm control one neck tie, or forearm bridge to the neck instead, and one hand underhook.
That's what I'm talking about. The wrapping arm (overhook) can control 1/2 of your opponent's body. If you control your oppponent's elbow by your hand, and also control his wrist by your arm pit (2 points control), you will have a tight control on that arm. The other arm that control your opponent's neck and chest (mantis arm) can also control the other 1/2 of his body. Any attack come from that side can be blocked by just "raising the elbow" or another "arm wrapping (overhook)". Since you can move into a "head lock" or "overhook" anytime your want to from that position, it's more dominant clinch IMO.

Syn7

11-21-2010, 04:48 PM

sny7

i thought u put me on ignore???

sny7

so in real life you walk around with no shirt on? or are you just talking about no heavy type clothing?

what do you think??? did you really need to ask that question?

Syn7

11-21-2010, 04:52 PM

no gi transfers better to gi than gi tranfers to no gi, thats a simple fact,

Underhooks over hooks, head cotnrol or work well clothes or no clothes, it is NOT the same the other way around,

yeah thats just a fact... experience is the only thing you need to teach you that... simple truth of the matter is that alot of gi throws and whatnot simply dont work with most street clothes... too loose, too weak, too unreliable... like i said before, i'll take wrist control and a single collar over lapel and sleeve control, anyday...

Violent Designs

11-21-2010, 04:54 PM

That's what I'm talking about. The wrapping arm (overhook) can control 1/2 of your opponent's body. If you control your oppponent's elbow by your hand, and also control his wrist by your arm pit (2 points control), you will have a tight control on that arm. The other arm that control your opponent's neck and chest (mantis arm) can also control the other 1/2 of his body. Any attack come from that side can be blocked by just "raising the elbow" or another "arm wrapping (overhook)". Since you can move into a "head lock" or "overhook" anytime your want to from that position, it's more dominant clinch IMO.

double neck tie doesn't offer the most control, i comletely aggree with this.

at least one wrist/arm control is much better for sweeping or throwing or even throwing a knee.

Syn7

11-21-2010, 05:04 PM

The "double neck tie" is like the Judo "double lapels hold", it gives too much freedom to your opponent's arms.

why do you keep giving me ammo... i mean, you seem like a nice guy... but some of these posts... i cant not answer... but hey, i'll keep it to a short and sweet ARE YOU FUKCING KIDDING ME!!!!:D

Syn7

11-21-2010, 05:07 PM

PERSONALLY I prefer one arm control one neck tie

wooooord..... wrist n collar... what its all about.... will you go this way? or that way? or.... THUMP... its done... :eek:

EarthDragon

11-21-2010, 05:14 PM

drake

QUOTE]Not just training. Too many sifu teach this way. Too many lets all get a trophy and be happy soccer moms look for this. And this is why those that wish to actually get better at fighting or self defense, you know the original intent of the art, go someplace else like MMA. And that just makes it even worse. When all there is to spar against are a bunch of timid girls and pasty skinny emo kids, its not a very good breeding ground for a fighter yeah? [/QUOTE]

well speaking form a school owners persepctive its hard to teach ONLY hard core fighitng and keep a school open. If you want to make a profit forget it. So many are forced to water down their teachings. Or appeal to the other people in the community who wish to take lessons for other reasons than to fight.
I happen to be one of the lucky ones as I can teach hardcore and combat stuff only and not worry about not having evough students. I dont teach kids, I teach only authentic mantis and applications adn mantis is a nasty style of fighting. But i can do this as a luxury not a neccessity that so many school owners find themselves in. so sometime syou gotta do what ou gotta do to stay in biz, cant blame them

Sny7
yes I did but took you off because for the most part I do enjoy reading your posts and I feel you can learn a little from eveyone...... however if you stoop to the point of name calling and trying to belittle my acomplishments that most teachers and fighters have yet to acheive no matter how insignifigant you make think they are to you to get your point across then you simply go back on it.
How many ppl here have made it to the UFC? or teachers that got students to the UFC? or our MMA circut? I curently have 6 on NY NC and FLA? if thats the arena you think its the best venue for real fighting as you yourself have said. Just stop hating on others, you life will be more fufilling

Syn7

11-21-2010, 05:39 PM

one of my friends and teachers was in the ufc, recently... no big deal... i wouldnt have even brought it up... and i most certainly would never have lowered myself to name dropping... his accomplishments are not mine...

all i wanted was some backup to the claims... the claims YOU keep bringing up... not me... YOU...

also i'd like to point out that during the first years of the UFC, the real mma matches were happening in japan, east europe and brazil, for the most part... not that i dont have any respect for guys that fought in the early years, its just that americans seemed to have been late bloomers... for awhile the best they could field was olympic calibre wrestlers...

YouKnowWho

11-21-2010, 07:00 PM

i'll keep it to a short and sweet ARE YOU FUKCING KIDDING ME!!!!:D
No! I'm not kidding you. :D The purpose of clinch is to disable your opponent's arms (take his striking ability away).

When you use both arms to control your opponent's head, your opponent can use both arms to control your waist IF HIS ARMS ARE FREE. You don't have any more advantage than your opponent does. A strong "bear hug" can be very hard to counter. This is just simple wrestling 101. I don't understand why do I need to explain this any further.

Old TCMA saying said, "To be kind to your enemy (allow your opponent to have both free arms) is to be cruel to yourself."

EarthDragon

11-21-2010, 08:05 PM

SNY7

one of my friends and teachers was in the ufc, recently... no big deal...

It was to me..... even to see one of our own mantis guys in the octagon reprsenting was a great acomplishment for manti practionors everywhere.

his accomplishments are not mine...

exaclty, however if you trained your friend eveyday, were in teh locker room prefight, walked down the isle with him and sat ring side while he won not only his first alternate bout but the next one as well, tell me you wouldnt be proud of that? And dont belittle that he was an alterntate, hell thats more than 90% of fighter will ever get to.
so whats wrong with beign proud of that? you certianly shouldnt put someone down for what they have acomplished, even if it was 50 years ago... still more than many will have the chance to.

all i wanted was some backup to the claims... the claims YOU keep bringing up... not me... YOU...
what back up? this is fact and I only bring it up when people aslk me what fightes have i trained, or what do I know about fighting MMA or any question that some may ask to get an idea I am not talking about of my arse.

also i'd like to point out that during the first years of the UFC, the real mma matches were happening in japan, east europe and brazil, for the most part... not that i dont have any respect for guys that fought in the early years, its just that americans seemed to have been late bloomers... for awhile the best they could field was olympic calibre wrestlers...

in your opinion.. I knew about pancrase many years before so what?
I find that those who cant do what they do downplay what other have done. again post your fight record then you have a right to heckle others... I dont want to be ****y but you always attack me I never have attcked you , only defended my name by what I have done. hope this clears up our differences

Frost

11-22-2010, 12:37 AM

this post tells me you have never done it with someone who really knows how to do this

Honestly, at this point this thread is so screwed up, no point in trying to save it, but it had potential :(

lol oh so true on both accounts

Frost

11-22-2010, 12:44 AM

No! I'm not kidding you. :D The purpose of clinch is to disable your opponent's arms (take his striking ability away).

When you use both arms to control your opponent's head, your opponent can use both arms to control your waist IF HIS ARMS ARE FREE. You don't have any more advantage than your opponent does. A strong "bear hug" can be very hard to counter. This is just simple wrestling 101. I don't understand why do I need to explain this any further.

Old TCMA saying said, "To be kind to your enemy (allow your opponent to have both free arms) is to be cruel to yourself."

lol whilst violent is right and the thai plum is not the only move in the thai clinch and that wrist and head control is a good tie up, i like the double neck tie as well....

and this statement just screams NO EXPERIENCE with the double neck tie at all...............their is no way you are going to be grabbing and controlling his waist if he is anyway half trained he will be creating distance for his knees which means using his elbows to create a bridge and keeping his hips back, snapping your head down and moving you around

I agree with sn7 you seem nice but you have no expereince with thai neck control and knees, getting the body lock is fecking hard to do and where strikes are involved its a very good position

David Jamieson

11-22-2010, 06:19 AM

Frost

11-22-2010, 06:57 AM

First off, lol@frost for thinking John has no experience with grappling.
Second of all, mma is not the end answer on clinching.

You guys are talking about it as if the only way it happens is in a square off.
Clinching doesn't have to be "x" or "y" technique.

There's lot's of things that can happen from collar pull downs, percussive pulls with punches, head pull downs with knees, single arm tie with elbow, not even going to knives or anything else but, a clinch is where you don't want to be when a guy has a knife.

Don't think of clinching in the same terms as boxing or mma or muay thai or whatever. There's literally thousands of solutions to getting one on or getting out or getting one off.

where did i say he didnt know grappling, i said he had no real expereince with a double neck tie up and eating knees, there is a differencebetwen those two statements you know...if he had expereince he would know that its hard to get a body lock because the elbows are in the way an the hips are back, and punching without a balance or without first defending the knees is suicide

actually a clinch is probabley where you do want to be with a knife, specifically a two on one or an overhook

MightyB

11-22-2010, 07:00 AM

No! I'm not kidding you. :D The purpose of clinch is to disable your opponent's arms (take his striking ability away).

When you use both arms to control your opponent's head, your opponent can use both arms to control your waist IF HIS ARMS ARE FREE. You don't have any more advantage than your opponent does. A strong "bear hug" can be very hard to counter. This is just simple wrestling 101. I don't understand why do I need to explain this any further.

Old TCMA saying said, "To be kind to your enemy (allow your opponent to have both free arms) is to be cruel to yourself."

I have to jump in here and help Master Wang out. For those of you that don't know anything about Chinese MA theory... it's a lot like the Rock Paper Scissors game but replaced with Lock Strike Throw. If someone locks you, you strike, if someone strikes, you throw... capice? As my sigung used to demonstrate - he'd say, grab my wrist, so you'd grab his wrist thinking he'd do some type of cool chin na thing... he'd then punch you in the throat or use this big nasty jade ring to crack your hand in the pressure point between your ring and index finger. He'd then laugh at you for being stupid.

Anyway, translate that to Master Wang's post. Leaving both of your opponent's hands free while you're tied up trying to tie him up can be dangerous - hence the tendency for someone with a TCMA background having a preference for wanting to control at least one of your arms.

David Jamieson

11-22-2010, 07:03 AM

where did i say he didnt know grappling, i said he had no real expereince with a double neck tie up and eating knees, there is a differencebetwen those two statements you know...if he had expereince he would know that its hard to get a body lock because the elbows are in the way an the hips are back, and punching without a balance or without first defending the knees is suicide

actually a clinch is probabley where you do want to be with a knife, specifically a two on one or an overhook

?? ok then. So, when someone says something, you're going to arbitrarily change up what you will mean and go granular and away from what was addressed?

Anyway, the clinch is a place, it's not a single thing. It's a range and a lot of things ca happen in it.

....and no, you don't want to be in close to someone with a knife. If you are forced there the only focus you should have is on the arm holding the knife and how to stop it from moving.

MightyB

11-22-2010, 07:11 AM

I have to jump in here and help Master Wang out. For those of you that don't know anything about Chinese MA theory... it's a lot like the Rock Paper Scissors game but replaced with Lock Strike Throw. If someone locks you, you strike, if someone strikes, you throw... capice? As my sigung used to demonstrate - he'd say, grab my wrist, so you'd grab his wrist thinking he'd do some type of cool chin na thing... he'd then punch you in the throat or use this big nasty jade ring to crack your hand in the pressure point between your ring and index finger. He'd then laugh at you for being stupid.

Anyway, translate that to Master Wang's post. Leaving both of your opponent's hands free while you're tied up trying to tie him up can be dangerous - hence the tendency for someone with a TCMA background having a preference for wanting to control at least one of your arms.

That being said, I don't have experience against a real thai clinch... at least in an Anderson Silva kind've way. I do have a lot of Judo and wrestling experience and I'm about a year into BJJ (which is kind've like Judo, but waaaayyyyy different).

MightyB

11-22-2010, 07:23 AM

It's up to the individual. Personally, I think it's easier without a gi meaning training with a gi is more difficult both defensively and offensively. Here's why... you and your opponent have multiple opportunities to get some killer grips. Also the element of being choked out by your or your opponent's gi takes a bit of getting used to. So I'm in the "it's easier to train gi and transfer those skills to no gi" crowd.

Frost

11-22-2010, 07:24 AM

David Jamieson 11-22-2010 02:03 PM

Quote:

?? ok then. So, when someone says something, you're going to arbitrarily change up what you will mean and go granular and away from what was addressed?

Anyway, the clinch is a place, it's not a single thing. It's a range and a lot of things ca happen in it.

....and no, you don't want to be in close to someone with a knife. If you are forced there the only focus you should have is on the arm holding the knife and how to stop it from moving.
Yes and low and beyond you are now in a 2 on 1 in the clinch….. o)

Nope I have said a few times on this thread that in regard to the double neck tie his remarks scream no experience with it, he was talking specifically about the plum as it is commonly called, he said its no different from a double lapel judo grab, and that it’s a bad position because the other guy can punch with 2 free hands or body lock you..….all these statements scream no experience because they are not true

Frost

11-22-2010, 07:27 AM

[MightyB 11-22-2010 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MightyB (Post 1061749)
I have to jump in here and help Master Wang out. For those of you that don't know anything about Chinese MA theory... it's a lot like the Rock Paper Scissors game but replaced with Lock Strike Throw. If someone locks you, you strike, if someone strikes, you throw... capice? As my sigung used to demonstrate - he'd say, grab my wrist, so you'd grab his wrist thinking he'd do some type of cool chin na thing... he'd then punch you in the throat or use this big nasty jade ring to crack your hand in the pressure point between your ring and index finger. He'd then laugh at you for being stupid.

Anyway, translate that to Master Wang's post. Leaving both of your opponent's hands free while you're tied up trying to tie him up can be dangerous - hence the tendency for someone with a TCMA background having a preference for wanting to control at least one of your arms.

That being said, I don't have experience against a real thai clinch... at least in an Anderson Silva kind've way. I do have a lot of Judo and wrestling experience and I'm about a year into BJJ (which is kind've like Judo, but waaaayyyyy different).

I’ve been neck clinched by Paul Daley, Andre Winner and Jimmy Wallhead to name a few, believe me when I say punching is not an option and neither is grabbing the body lock, begging for mercy is a good option though lol

MightyB

11-22-2010, 07:28 AM

reiterating my earliest post.

You want to be close in Judo, so I'm not worried about the clinch - i.e. someone's post about using the hip toss to break the clinch. What's a pain in the arse for me is when you get that person with retard strength who's constantly stiff arming me keeping me out so I can't throw. That's why I said, if his stiff arm is on my chest / lapel, I shift my body slightly and pull the stiff arm past allowing him to push my gi off of my shoulder. I slip past the stiff arm so I can close the distance to throw. I have a tendency to take a right natural grip, but I prefer left handed throws, so this technique plays right into my wheel-house.

MightyB

11-22-2010, 07:33 AM

I’ve been neck clinched by Paul Daley, Andre Winner and Jimmy Wallhead to name a few, believe me when I say punching is not an option and neither is grabbing the body lock, begging for mercy is a good option though lol

Thai boxing, at least the clinch/neck wrestling and their round kick to the thigh are two areas I'd love to ad to my arsenal. Like I said, I don't have any experience with a real thai clinch but I do respect what I've seen on TV.

MightyB

11-22-2010, 07:45 AM

I think this thread can be salvaged. I discovered that I have no idea what a thai clinch is like.

So - what are the main component's of a thai clinch, how do you train it, how do you train to defend against it, and how do you break out of it?

From this point on in this thread, let's be specific to the thai style of neck wrestling and post links to vids if they're available. I think this could be a very beneficial thread.

Frost

11-22-2010, 07:59 AM

Ok well for the record the double neck tie is only one of the many positions seen in thai boxing, (right now violent designs will be pasified ill go on!)

The main components are both hands on the top of the head/around the crown (not the base of the neck), elbows against the collar/shoulders, you want a long lever between the hands on the top/back of his crown and the base of the neck to create a lot of force and pressure on his head and neck. Elbows are in tight to the jaw and his head should sit in front of your chest not to either side. Ideally you don’t interlace your hands but put one on top of the other (which allows for maximum leverage) You should control him and move him by using your whole body and attaching him to your centre, ie I step back and twist my body and drive with my elbows to move him NOT step back, and then try to muscle him with my arms, do it right and his legs leave the floor. I am constantly looking to unbalance my opponent and snap his head down as I move him around (one reason why punching out of it doesn’t work) My forarms push into his shoulders as my hands pull him down (a push pull action) his pressure by the forearms and the distance it creates allows me to knee and also stops the body lock takedown)

If I remember rightly ROSS has some very good videos on the plum out on his youtube channel, (linked over at the MMA forum)

To defend
1) get the head under the hips , bull the neck and take care of balance first
2) close the distance, its hard to knee with no space between you ( I like to stagger my stance and get one leg between his)
3) get your head on either side of his chest, not in the centre (this again take space away and takes away the ability to snap your head down)

and then try any escape you want :)

sanjuro_ronin

11-22-2010, 08:02 AM

How do you break a clinch?
Be better than the other guys at it, if you are not, do everything you can NOT to get into it.

Kevin73

11-23-2010, 06:17 AM

Here is a clip of the Anderson Silva vs. Rich Franklin fight (first fight). Starting at about 1:50 you see Silva start to employ the Thai clinch.

You will notice two things
1) The Thai clinch is a very active position to control your opponent's base and body weapons
2) It is NOT simply having your hands around their neck

You will also notice that even a skilled fighter (Franklin was the champ at the time) has trouble defeating the clinch when it is actually used the way it is meant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U051MuKRzSs

I think part of the problem when people start discussing "clinch" is that for many people they think of it as an unskilled attack where someone just grabs onto you and hugs you like two drunks in a bar fight. That does occur alot in fights, but it is also a very skilled attack and defense method when someone knows what they are doing.

EarthDragon

11-23-2010, 07:17 AM

MightyB

11-23-2010, 07:26 AM

David Jamieson

11-23-2010, 07:36 AM

My view is that fighting is simple and not complicated. In fact, the more simple your approach, the more likely you are a better fighter.

If we complicate things through communication and we do, or tell others that they don't know this or that based on a few words, then that defeats the whole purpose. Illustrations in a presentation are very helpful and be specific in your talking points.

A clinch is a simple, uncomplicated thing and it is a range you will find yourself in if you regular engage in such activities.

There is no huge difference between one or the other boxer, muay thai, wrestler etc.
There are small differences and they are negated by individual technique.

Glove size will dictate what you can and cannot grab.
Rules will dictate that as well.

Boxers cannot throw and so, the clinch is for rest and inside work. You can break it by rolling out or pushing off.

Other guys hold on and try to control the neck, although, this is also a kungfu thing as well at least, it is in my style and was not borrowed from Muay Thai or any of that, it's a single or double hand neck grab, pincing the elbows in with the double and controlling the head whilst launching attacks.

judo has gi grab as does shuai chiao and other grappling/throwing arts

GR wrestling has lots of different moves, reversals etc to get into and out of that range.

Sometimes it is a big hug up and other times it's more calculated and smoothly done. YOUR experience will be different every time.

Frost

11-23-2010, 12:14 PM

Hey - I started a new thread that specifically deals with the Thai Clinch where Coach Ross posted a great video on how to deal with it. Also, Frost did an excellent written breakdown on the mechanics of that clinch.

Franklin is a great wrestler and fighter. Even he didn't have experience with the particular nuances of the thai clinch. What's that mean to the average part timer MAist? It means we should be discussing the Thai Clinch.

rich is a great clinch fighter and has dominated guys there, its just you tend to look THAT bad against a world class clinch guy...i also think he was surprised my andersons strength

For the averag MA guy the clinch can be real simple, thai plum to strike from and double underhooks to take down and throw people...thats it thats the only two positions you probably need against most people

Frost

11-23-2010, 12:22 PM

from that clip is looks like anderson either
A doesnt know how to get out of it..... and never trained to get get out of it
B didnt think it was a dangerous place to be in.....reffer back to the latter A

I think you meant Franklin, and your analysis is way off

Fanklin A, is a very good clinch fighter has dominated there before and knows exaclty what to do in the clinch: see how he trys to keep his hips under his head at all times and trys to kill the distance between them to negate the knees. he bulls his neck and always looks upwards

Also see how he trys to peel andersons head from the outside to create space to re-pummel or escape and also how he trys some over under breaks when he cant pummel for inside control, its just Andersons clinch is THAT good he couldnt do anything

Even when he resorted to striking he only did this when he had his base secured under him (still not the best option but the only one he had when everything else failed)

EarthDragon

11-23-2010, 01:16 PM

David Jamieson

11-23-2010, 01:26 PM

Frost

11-23-2010, 01:28 PM

yeah not sure who was who there, but for the white guy, instead of lifting up he could have dropped down, scopped and sweep the legs and went to the ground, just an option but perhaps he was resting there but it looked like he really wasnt fighting back to much even when they stumbled across the octagon he had many chances to get out of that....

dropping in the thai clinch leads right into eating knees to the face anderson had way to much control over him for that to ever be an option, he did the right thing by staying up right, you saw what happened when he was bent over against the fence :eek:

He was fighting like hell to escape it, whn he got turned into the fence (which was a thing of beauty) you could see how tired he was, franklin has some of the best cardio in MMA, him being that tired shows A) just how hard he was working to try to escape and maintain posture, and B) just how hard it is to break a good clinch

sanjuro_ronin

11-23-2010, 01:46 PM

Never, ever drop for a takedown ( or anything else for that matter) while in a clinch when knees and kicks are allowed.

Violent Designs

11-23-2010, 01:57 PM

Sigh man what is a "Thai clinch"

There are many types to clinch within the style "Muay Thai."

The double neck-tie, is one SINGLE POSITION, and does not offer "positional superiority" when one considers Muay Thai in its complete form.

Not Americanized Muay Thai, or even Dutch style, but the classical Thai style (where the clinch method is the strongest).

Most beginners, hell even most pros who are not at the top level, or fight at the top level usually go for double neck-tie.

Reason not because it is necessary BETTER but because that is all THEY KNOW HOW TO DO. They never learned the other techniques. I'm not kidding because I know many profession Thai boxers, American ones to be exact and they don't know nuances of clinching. They always go for double neck tie.

Now that said if you are very skilled you can neutralize someone trying to use that particular technique with counter techniques, such as forearm neck bridge, the other hand controls your opponent's wrist.

Another counter is push yourself up and forward, bodylock, and of course in self-defense u can takedown from this.

What I am saying is double neck tie is great, it's a GREAT position if your opponent is ALREADY worn out and you can muscle him around. In this situation he does not have the strength to push/lock you, and you can knee him very easily.

Another advantage is if you are a much TALLER fighter, then this position is a "dominant position" for the taller fighter.

For the shorter fighter please don't try double neck tie unless you already beat up your opponent badly, LOL. For example Wanderlei Silva vs. Rampage Jackson 1 & 2.

But when talking about "Muay Thai Clinch" WTF are we saying really? There are many clinch techniques in Muay Thai and just dump them all into "double neck tie" is pretty stupid. Just becauase that is all you see in UFC doesn't mean that's the best technique.

Violent Designs

11-23-2010, 01:58 PM

Never, ever drop for a takedown ( or anything else for that matter) while in a clinch when knees and kicks are allowed.

If you can catch their knee (knee underhook?) then you can do takedown from that.

I will post a lot of good clinch videos later today.

David Jamieson

11-23-2010, 02:32 PM

...all this crap about clinching and we are starting to look like the wing chun forum over analyzing itself as usual. lol.

Frost

11-23-2010, 02:33 PM

Frost

11-23-2010, 02:33 PM

...all this crap about clinching and we are starting to look like the wing chun forum over analyzing itself as usual. lol.

not really ecause clinch fighting is actually useful in a fight and it is the most complex range of fighting there is

goju

11-23-2010, 02:47 PM

its not quite like the wc forum until someone calls someone a thoeretcal non clincher:D

Peaceful Orchid

11-23-2010, 03:31 PM

Who is this Earth Dragon guy?

No wonder the old Chinese masters didn't want to teach westerners.

EarthDragon

11-23-2010, 08:40 PM

hi peaceful orchid, I am a westerner and yes my teacher was a old Chinese master. Welcome to the board.

Frost,

dropping in the thai clinch leads right into eating knees to the face anderson had way to much control over him for that to ever be an option,

if someone is controiling he back of your neck and head fropm coming up or over, you have only direction out and that is down.
Now you must look for the right exit mind you but you go the opposite way of the restriant.
1.catch the knee sweep the foundation leg and drop your body weight.
2. block the knee with your hands, grab the back sof the knees drop then ram with your head to his ribs backward and downward.

obviously you are not trying to drop the head into an on coming knee to the face, use common sense.

goju

11-23-2010, 08:49 PM

2. block the knee with your hands, .

thats much easier said than done and one is often baited to drop their hands like that so once their guard is dropped to defend the knees dominant control can be secured in the clinch or they can be punched and elbowed

further you risk injuring your hand particularly your fingers when trying to stop it that way

EarthDragon

11-24-2010, 07:03 AM

goju

thats much easier said than done and one is often baited to drop their hands like that so once their guard is dropped to defend the knees dominant control can be secured in the clinch or they can be punched and elbowed

everthing is easier said then done right? talk is cheap LOl. a friend of mone just had this conversation about a catch missed in pro football.... I said thats easier said then done..

But again I said use common sense. fighting experience is needed and expereicned fighters dont fall for the bait so easliy. you can always cross block a kne then grab at it. knees only come one at a time and if you feel the clinch release from your opponent then you obviously know a punch is coming, then you take the steps to counter this punching attack.

from these answers seems like a lot of people dont fight out here or dont do it enough. realistic sparring should be done at least once a week, drilling should be done eveyday, applications should be done at least twice a week. counters should be praticed 3 times a week

further you risk injuring your hand particularly your fingers when trying to stop it that way
you block with your palms and or wrists not your fingers they should be crossed over each other for support

MasterKiller

11-24-2010, 07:33 AM

h
if someone is controiling he back of your neck and head fropm coming up or over, you have only direction out and that is down.
Now you must look for the right exit mind you but you go the opposite way of the restriant.
1.catch the knee sweep the foundation leg and drop your body weight.
2. block the knee with your hands, grab the back sof the knees drop then ram with your head to his ribs backward and downward.

obviously you are not trying to drop the head into an on coming knee to the face, use common sense.

Dropping down should be your last resort if you can't regain your posture. Blocking knees with the hands....I don't like that at all. If my posture is broken, I usually crossblock their hips with my hand and advance into them so they can't throw the knees at all. But if I'm stuck, and I just can't get out, I cross my arms over face and use elbows to block the knees. Actually, I drop them into the thighs. But it's a risky move.

David Jamieson

11-24-2010, 07:38 AM

Palm to hip horns or center below the belly button will hold back knees before they start.

If you close in, straighten your body, lift your shoulder and twist your waist with teh lifted shoulder pressing on one of the holding arms, you will spin out, even from a gripped clinch/ neck tie type.

Try it, I did and if you do it in one quick snappy motion, you can even throw a strike or help by cutting the shouldered arm etc.

Everything is changeable on the fly.

sanjuro_ronin

11-24-2010, 08:17 AM

If you can catch their knee (knee underhook?) then you can do takedown from that.

I will post a lot of good clinch videos later today.

Dude....:confused:

Peaceful Orchid

11-24-2010, 09:01 AM

hi peaceful orchid, I am a westerner and yes my teacher was a old Chinese master. Welcome to the board.

Many who left China as beginners became "masters" on the trip to the Western world. Your teacher sounds like he was one of them.

sanjuro_ronin

11-24-2010, 09:17 AM

Many who left China as beginners became "masters" on the trip to the Western world. Your teacher sounds like he was one of them.

If you don't agree with his views then address those, attacking him or his teacher proves nothing.

David Jamieson

11-24-2010, 09:39 AM

Many who left China as beginners became "masters" on the trip to the Western world. Your teacher sounds like he was one of them.

lol, hey I know, why you don't you just be a d1ck about it?
You don't even know the guy, don't know what sort of time he's put in and you offer this?

Just because someone has a different driveway than yours doesn't mean anything.
Still a driveway right?

Peaceful Orchid

11-24-2010, 09:53 AM

lol, hey I know, why you don't you just be a d1ck about it?
You don't even know the guy, don't know what sort of time he's put in and you offer this?

Just because someone has a different driveway than yours doesn't mean anything.
Still a driveway right?

Most Westerners have been taught by these kinds of teachers.

You can tell from his posts that he had this kind of teacher.

YouKnowWho

11-24-2010, 11:02 AM

Most Westerners have been taught by these kinds of teachers.

You can tell from his posts that he had this kind of teacher.

Please don't attack anybody in person. Especially don't attack that person's teacher. If you don't like to be treated a certain way, you should not treat others as such.

If we all agree with each other then there won't be any discussion borad needed. Discussion does not have to involve "YOU" or "I" in it but the subject only.

David Jamieson

11-24-2010, 11:08 AM

Most Westerners have been taught by these kinds of teachers.

You can tell from his posts that he had this kind of teacher.

No you can't.

You can only make your own assumptions based of of your own interpretation of what has been written.

None of us really know much of anything about each other.
None of us that haven't physically met and developed a personal relationship with really know each other and even less of us know the truth of each others martial arts ability.

Do you know who his teacher was? Or mine for that matter?
Do you think because someone gets a bit ticked and defensive over something that that is the whole of their personality?

This day and age is digitally dumb in my opinion and far too many people are quick to go over the edge of assumption.

In short, you're just being rude and throwing accusations at someone based on what you think you know.

YouKnowWho

11-24-2010, 11:15 AM

you're just being rude and throwing accusations at someone based on what you think you know.

Agree 100% there. It's very rude behavior indeed.

In TCMA, it's NO NO to attack someone's teacher. It's also a very dangerous behavior. You may create a lot of unnecessary enemies for yourself without even knowing it (if that person's teacher has a lot of students).

goju

11-24-2010, 11:18 AM

None of us really know much of anything about each other.
None of us that haven't physically met .

not entirely true quite abit of people here have met each other and have known each other for quite a while irl

Iron_Eagle_76

11-24-2010, 12:21 PM

You know, I would actually enjoying meeting and training with a few members here on this forum. It would be cool to do that sometime, if it was within decent driving distance. Maybe something for the future.

In the meantime, let's all scream at each other and say how wrong someone is and disrespect someone's teacher, and, oh wait...............:rolleyes:

Frost

11-24-2010, 01:10 PM

hi peaceful orchid, I am a westerner and yes my teacher was a old Chinese master. Welcome to the board.

Frost,

if someone is controiling he back of your neck and head fropm coming up or over, you have only direction out and that is down.
Now you must look for the right exit mind you but you go the opposite way of the restriant.
1.catch the knee sweep the foundation leg and drop your body weight.
2. block the knee with your hands, grab the back sof the knees drop then ram with your head to his ribs backward and downward.

obviously you are not trying to drop the head into an on coming knee to the face, use common sense.

im sorry but using the term common sense when you make suggestions like this does make me smile :D

Frost

11-24-2010, 01:14 PM

goju

everthing is easier said then done right? talk is cheap LOl. a friend of mone just had this conversation about a catch missed in pro football.... I said thats easier said then done..

But again I said use common sense. fighting experience is needed and expereicned fighters dont fall for the bait so easliy. you can always cross block a kne then grab at it. knees only come one at a time and if you feel the clinch release from your opponent then you obviously know a punch is coming, then you take the steps to counter this punching attack.

dont do it enough. realistic sparring should be done at least once a week, drilling should be done efrom these answers seems like a lot of people dont fight out here or veyday, applications should be done at least twice a week. counters should be praticed 3 times a week

you block with your palms and or wrists not your fingers they should be crossed over each other for support

sorry but the highlighted bit made me laugh as well especially with the totally unrealistic cr^p you are suggesting to do in the clinch :)

get someone who can actually use the clinch and ask them to knee you as they move you around and then come back to us and tell us how easy it is to block :)

Frost

11-24-2010, 01:18 PM

Dude....:confused:

actually this is the one danger of kneeing the mid section when takedowns are allowed unless you have the guy off balance or are using fast knees of the front leg,

Its much better to knee the legs (much quicker and cant get caught) or knee the head...most people will take a knee to the stomach to get a take down, they will not eat a knee to the head though

David Jamieson

11-24-2010, 01:21 PM

not entirely true quite abit of people here have met each other and have known each other for quite a while irl

what part of "none of us that haven't physically met" are you having trouble understanding? lol

You do realize there are more than 10,000 members on this site and at least 5000 of them aren't aliases for Hardwork and Mysterious power. :p

Frost

11-24-2010, 01:22 PM

Dropping down should be your last resort if you can't regain your posture. Blocking knees with the hands....I don't like that at all. If my posture is broken, I usually crossblock their hips with my hand and advance into them so they can't throw the knees at all. But if I'm stuck, and I just can't get out, I cross my arms over face and use elbows to block the knees. Actually, I drop them into the thighs. But it's a risky move.

spoken like someone who actually has experience in the clinch :) blocking the hips and running into them is the best option if posture is totally lost...of course someone like anderson would just turn you off like he did to franklin but hey what else can you do?

lkfmdc

11-24-2010, 01:51 PM

IMO the best thing to do in the clinch is keep fighting for position, then from a good position do "your thing" whether that is wrestling or striking

I personally don't think highly of it, but you CAN shoot doubles and singles vs a Muay Thai style neck tie IF (and these are BIG IF's) you bring your hips in, keep your back straight, he has a somewhat lose grip, and then you post on his arms, pop them up and shoot with the head OUTSIDE....

Still much lower percentage than just pummeling out of the position

Lucas

11-24-2010, 01:53 PM

what part of "none of us that haven't physically met" are you having trouble understanding? lol

You do realize there are more than 10,000 members on this site and at least 5000 of them aren't aliases for Hardwork and Mysterious power. :p

lol @ that.

i think he must have read 'none of us have physically met'

goju

11-24-2010, 02:36 PM

You do realize there are more than 10,000 members on this site and at least 5000 of them aren't aliases for Hardwork and Mysterious power. :p

yes but my point is quite alot of the regulars here ( who dont even number close to a 100 posters ) cluster around the eastern part of the us and have met and are aware of each others abiltiies and skill

plus pretty much all the guys that compete on here have their vids up

with both of those things noted we can say a big chunk of the boards active posters skill has been seen.

we just have the random knifefighter/ mysterious power handle popping in once and a while to stir the pot of course

David Jamieson

11-24-2010, 02:40 PM

yes but my point is quite alot of the regulars here ( who dont even number close to a 100 posters ) cluster around the eastern part of the us and have met and are aware of each others abiltiies and skill

plus pretty much all the guys that compete on here have their vids up

with both of those things noted we can say a big chunk of the boards active posters skill has been seen.

we just have the random knifefighter/ mysterious power handle popping in once and a while to stir the pot of course

hmmm, well, I have to disagree.

there are a few of the guys here who had the same teacher the CTS crowd.
there are a couple of other guys in NYC, but I don't think they hang and train with each other on a regular basis.

anyway, it's irrelevant, the point is, that for the most part, none of us really know each other all that well and certainly not enough to rate some of the absurd criticism and assumptions that are thrown down here regularly.

EarthDragon

11-24-2010, 06:52 PM

peaceful Orchid

ny who left China as beginners became "masters" on the trip to the Western world. Your teacher sounds like he was one of them.

my shifu is Shyun Kwan Long, my sigung is Wei Xiao Tung, probably one of THE most famous mantis masters in the world. goolge Master Wei and educate yourself before you make sweeping assumptions that makes you look foolish in everyone eyes.

For a screen name such as yours you come across very rude and harsh especially for a newbie Jr member......make friends not waves.

Frost

im sorry but using the term common sense when you make suggestions like this does make me smile
I made you smile? see theres hope for our friendship yet.

sorry but the highlighted bit made me laugh as well especially with the totally unrealistic cr^p you are suggesting to do in the clinch

get someone who can actually use the clinch and ask them to knee you as they move you around and then come back to us and tell us how easy it is to block

what unrealistic about getting out of a neck control by blocking a knee , controlling the back of the knee and escaping downward?

just because you disagree you call my technique crap?
can you not just hold a discussion with politeness?

Peaceful Orchid

11-24-2010, 07:24 PM

peaceful Orchidmy shifu is Shyun Kwan Long, my sigung is Wei Xiao Tung, probably one of THE most famous mantis masters in the world.?

Yep, that was exactly one of the so called "masters" I was talking about. Total prostitution of the CMA system.

EarthDragon

11-24-2010, 08:07 PM

LOL and you came to this conclusion how?
so your saying your so good you can put world famous people down....... there have been books written about my lineage and my teacher, how many books have been written about you?

lets listen to someone who just joined this site and hides ther real name, city they live in, style they study and teacher they train with...........

here is the info you listed in your "about me section".........
Interests
Flowers, gardening, peace gatherings, getting along, poetry, cooking, bug imitations.

Peaceful Orchid

11-24-2010, 08:13 PM

Ok, I fixed it.

Interests:
Flowers, gardening, peace gatherings, getting along, poetry, cooking, bug imitations, exposing phoney martial arts teachers.

EarthDragon

11-24-2010, 08:15 PM

geez another banned member that comes slithering back under a fake name. God how pathetic. but instead of polluting this thread any longer with your non sense, PM me if you want to argue. lets stay on topic for the other members on this board.

Violent Designs

11-25-2010, 02:13 AM

actually this is the one danger of kneeing the mid section when takedowns are allowed unless you have the guy off balance or are using fast knees of the front leg,

Its much better to knee the legs (much quicker and cant get caught) or knee the head...most people will take a knee to the stomach to get a take down, they will not eat a knee to the head though

thanks for the explanation Frost.

i don't do MMA or wrestling so I am not a takedown expert.

but this is the technique I have seen employed in MMA fights.

Frost

11-25-2010, 02:49 AM

peaceful Orchid

my shifu is Shyun Kwan Long, my sigung is Wei Xiao Tung, probably one of THE most famous mantis masters in the world. goolge Master Wei and educate yourself before you make sweeping assumptions that makes you look foolish in everyone eyes.

For a screen name such as yours you come across very rude and harsh especially for a newbie Jr member......make friends not waves.

Frost

I made you smile? see theres hope for our friendship yet.

what unrealistic about getting out of a neck control by blocking a knee , controlling the back of the knee and escaping downward?

just because you disagree you call my technique crap?
can you not just hold a discussion with politeness?

Ok ill answer seriously and try to be civil :)

Blocking the knees with the hands is not a good idea for a number of reasons:
Firstly people don’t tend to knee in the clinch unless they have you off balance (see the video where Anderson turn Franklin into the fence bends him over and knees the you know what out of him)
Secondly the body is not the main target for the knees especially when grappling happens the head is and the knee can come straight over the hands and land in the face… especially if they do the third point (see below)
Third people who know the clinch tend to bring the knee inwards and then punch it forward NOT upwards so blocking it is very hard as this tends to mean the knee comes over the top of the block and punches straight into your face (not nice believe me) or blows straight through the block as the force is coming forwards not upwards and punches into the body

That’s why masterkillers idea of shutting the hips down and running the opponent down is a better idea, it’s a proactive move, you hit the hips before they knee so it doesn’t matter what target they are going for, rather than a reactive move, blocking the knees

Another problem with blocking the knees is that it brings your hands down and you usually have to angle your body at close to 45 degrees to enable you to block properly, the former opens you up to punches and elbows if they release the grip, and the latter opens you up to being snapped down and choked out or turtled and kicked on the floor

That’s another reason why posture is so important in the clinch

Frost

11-25-2010, 03:03 AM

thanks for the explanation Frost.

i don't do MMA or wrestling so I am not a takedown expert.

but this is the technique I have seen employed in MMA fights.

That’s ok you were spot on, as you always are about the clinch stuff.

I tend to think what we see in the clinch in MMA is much closer to what you see in Thailand compared to what you see in western thai boxing, I agree in the west you tend to see just the neck tie ups, but when you watch Thais come over you see the whole lot: head and neck ties, under hooks, over hooks, the whole range

I remember my MMA coach talking about the clinch way back in 2003/2004 and saying how little we see in this country of proper Thai clinch work and how its so much broader than just the neck tie up…. and I wasn’t that sure he was right….. that night I watched a visiting thai fighter school a british fighter in the clinch he used under hooks and head pinches, a ****zer to move the guy around, body locks to sweep and throw at one stage he even hit an arm drag to belly to back throw lol it was like watching a wrestling clinic without the takedowns, very impressive

Violent Designs

11-25-2010, 06:18 AM

That’s ok you were spot on, as you always are about the clinch stuff.

I tend to think what we see in the clinch in MMA is much closer to what you see in Thailand compared to what you see in western thai boxing, I agree in the west you tend to see just the neck tie ups, but when you watch Thais come over you see the whole lot: head and neck ties, under hooks, over hooks, the whole range

I remember my MMA coach talking about the clinch way back in 2003/2004 and saying how little we see in this country of proper Thai clinch work and how its so much broader than just the neck tie up…. and I wasn’t that sure he was right….. that night I watched a visiting thai fighter school a british fighter in the clinch he used under hooks and head pinches, a ****zer to move the guy around, body locks to sweep and throw at one stage he even hit an arm drag to belly to back throw lol it was like watching a wrestling clinic without the takedowns, very impressive

Here are some of the videos (I'll try to get more)

Pot clinching with Saenchai Sor. Sinbi (formerly Saenchai Sor. Kingstar), the #1 rated pound-for-pound fighter in Thailand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I-cKLqQfC8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z4d8HbWl14&feature=related

Some tricks and techs :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBe5riWgZ9k&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_UjYgfZE8E&feature=related

EarthDragon

11-25-2010, 06:27 AM

Frost

11-25-2010, 06:40 AM

Violent and frost

from the last clip 30 seconds in is what i was kind of what I was talking about he blocks then grabs the back of the knee and drops down to a take down, but you said this is dangerous.

frost, however what you said also makes sense, and thanks for explianing it clearly and kindly for a change.

our training has always been to go the opposite of where your opponents is wanting you to go, not to use force against force and to push when they pull. etc etc. techniques over strength always.

grappling and the BJJ that I am learning is sport fighting something that I am not used to and some of the techniques i know cannot be applied. If ever in a street fight and someone is dumb enough to tie up both of his hands and yours are free the confrontation would be over very quickly, but in the ring alot of stuff cannot be used. thanks for the info, it is a good day when you can learn something new.... happy big bird day

You are welcome
Not sure how the event would be over more quickly on the street to be honest its hard to get to the throat or eyes and reaching for the groin can be very damaging for your health lol And the double neck tie is normally reached for one hand at a time whilst the other defends and once locked in you are snapping them around and constantly off balancing them. Now if you produce a knife and stab them then yes I agree it’s a bad place to be

All I would say is that on the street the clinch can be even more dangerous, I have seen guys use double neck ties to snap a head down and when people resist move the hands from the back to the front of the head, go with the movement and drive the head into a wall (very nasty) whilst using the thumbs in the eye sockets

sanjuro_ronin

11-25-2010, 07:10 AM

from the last clip 30 seconds in is what i was kind of what I was talking about he blocks then grabs the back of the knee and drops down to a take down, but you said this is dangerous.

Context, look at HOW he does it ( it has very little to do with the leg and everything to do with the head), look at WHEN he does it and HOW he is clinching.
This would Not work if he was NOT clinching WHILE being clinched, it would NOT work with both hands on the "kneeing leg" and it would not work if the knee was on the inside instead of the outside as it being shown there.

Violent Designs

11-25-2010, 04:55 PM

Side knees/angle knees are easier to catch/scoop than thrust knees.

IMO from personal experience (urs may differ)

I just also wanna point out a lot of these little tricks and techniques are not the most "high percentage." They do work and they can work very well but a lot of the skill level required is very high, I cannot do most of that stuff that Pot does in his videos.

Just sayin, you can't just theory about a few things, practice a few times and expect to pull it off in a real fighting situation, MUCH LESS a street fight.

Syn7

11-25-2010, 05:19 PM

spoken like someone who actually has experience in the clinch :) blocking the hips and running into them is the best option if posture is totally lost...of course someone like anderson would just turn you off like he did to franklin but hey what else can you do?

talking about a great example of knees in the clinch... u could see the pain in franklins eyes every hit...

Frost

11-26-2010, 01:01 AM

Context, look at HOW he does it ( it has very little to do with the leg and everything to do with the head), look at WHEN he does it and HOW he is clinching.
This would Not work if he was NOT clinching WHILE being clinched, it would NOT work with both hands on the "kneeing leg" and it would not work if the knee was on the inside instead of the outside as it being shown there.

yep basically that looked like a coller tie up and knee tap from wrestling, that is a good high percentage move and its not the same as blocking catching and dumping of an incoming knee

Frost

11-26-2010, 01:02 AM

talking about a great example of knees in the clinch... u could see the pain in franklins eyes every hit...

yep and also see how tiring it is being on the end of a good clinch, Franklin was in pain and really tired when he finally escape, for an athlete who is normally so in shape that says something about the power of Andersons clinch

Michael Dasargo

11-28-2010, 01:32 AM

Here's some solutions from Mike Lomotan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gibD8YtktgI&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI3uaCWz6vI&feature=player_embedded

Syn7

11-28-2010, 04:43 AM

yep and also see how tiring it is being on the end of a good clinch, Franklin was in pain and really tired when he finally escape, for an athlete who is normally so in shape that says something about the power of Andersons clinch

no doubt... and he really did rag doll his ass too... he threw him all over the place... you know, franklins fought some tough guys, but its clear he never been in that situation with anyone even nearly as good as silva... it was great and sad all in one... i mean, who didnt like rich franklin, the champion schoolteacher... hes just a likable guy... and so is silva, exept silva has a massive ego and i dont even know what he was doing in thos few fights awhile back... esspecially in the UAE... wtf was that... i heard white just walked over to soares, dropped the belt near him and walked away... during the fight... that was a crazy fight... he was prolly sick huh... and just fronted like he was fine... then showtime came and he had nada...

KC Elbows

02-04-2011, 12:07 PM

Three years ago me and the others who trained our system at the same time decided to always, with each other and our students, allow clinch in push hands, and that made a huge difference right there in several things: it completely altered the way we looked at bridging, so that, instead of being the kung fu guys who hold their arms way out in a fight and are clueless when the other guy gets too far or too close to bridge that way, we bridge with what's available, not necessarily our forearms at all. It also gave us more respect of our friends from other styles that were training similar things.

Another side benefit is we found that certain of our techniques seemed first and foremost geared to this range, and we improved vastly.

YouKnowWho

02-04-2011, 05:54 PM

allow clinch in push hands,
If you can use your right hand to grab on your opponent's left wrist, and your left hand to garb on his right wrist, depending on his reaction, you may develop some interested skill.

bawang

02-04-2011, 05:59 PM

if you scream RAPE they let go immediately
works every time

YouKnowWho

02-04-2011, 06:01 PM

if you scream RAPE they let go immediately
works every time

I did last time but those girls still won't let me go. :(

02-04-2011, 07:26 PM

BITE HIM!
BITE HIM UNTIL YOU TASTE HIS BLOOD.
BITE HIM AS HARD AS YOU CAN.
BITE UNTIL HE SCREAMS LIKE A LITTLE GIRL!!!

There is no training on the planet that prepares one for a good old "ILLEGAL" BITE.

Fighting is about survival, not trophies won by playing within "the rules".

BITE.

Bruce showed you all how to defeat BJJ.

BITE.

-jo

bawang

02-04-2011, 07:30 PM

but i dont wanna catch uber aids. and im not a vampire.

wiz cool c

02-04-2011, 08:01 PM

yeah aids is worse then a clinch

Syn7

02-04-2011, 08:14 PM

if you scream RAPE they let go immediately
works every time

i thought you were sposed to scream F I R E ! ! !

David Jamieson

02-04-2011, 09:11 PM

yeah aids is worse then a clinch

being a sparkly vampire is worse.

Syn7

02-04-2011, 09:51 PM

live forever or die soon??? touch call...

whats a sparkly vampire???

Frost

02-05-2011, 08:49 AM

KC Elbows

02-09-2011, 12:08 PM

There is no training on the planet that prepares one for a good old "ILLEGAL" BITE.

If I wanted to defend against someone about to bite me, which probably means they're close, to the point that our bodies were close and someone was holding the other by the arms head neck or body preparing for the bite(or other things one can do to an opponent held close by the arms, head, neck, or body), how do we defend against that?

And does anyone know any good short names for this controlling someone very close by the arms, head, neck, or body? If not, I move we now rename this The Bite Defense Thread.

David Jamieson

02-09-2011, 12:33 PM

whats a sparkly vampire???

The kind from twilight.

Kansuke

02-09-2011, 07:51 PM

I suppose this has been said already, but why "break" it when you can use it?

YouKnowWho

02-09-2011, 09:29 PM

I suppose this has been said already, but why "break" it when you can use it?
To break apart a clinch in non-jacket environment won't make much sense unless you have no knowledge about throwing.

In "jacket wrestling" environment such as SC or Judo sometime the clinching can cause a dead lock. Your have both sleeve and lapel grips on your opponent, your opponent also has both sleeve and lapel grips on you. When you try to make a move, your opponent shakes you. When your opponent tries to make a move, you shake him. If both you and your opponent has strong grips, it's not that easy to break each others grips (break a clinch). Sometime this clinching can last for a long time and nobody can do anything.

Many years ago there was a challenge match. 2 SC guys challenged a SC master. Those 2 guys had a plan. The 1st guy would play defense and cause a clinching situation to make that master tired in the 1st match. This would be easier for the 2nd guy in his 2nd match. Since that master was good in "breaking a clinch", their plan didn't work.

Another reason to break a clinch is for defense purpose. If your opponent has no grip on you, he cannot throw you. In jacket wrestling, it will be to your advantage if you have:

- 2 grips on your opponent but your opponent has only 1 grip on you.
- 1 grip on your opponent but your opponent has no grip on you.

You try to create such situation by using your "break clinching" skill.

mjw

02-10-2011, 12:14 AM

For a clinch what works for me is if they put a hand (or 2) behind my head I swim the one in grabbing the back of their head but don't let them break your structure.....

Frost

02-10-2011, 02:06 AM

To break apart a clinch in non-jacket environment won't make much sense unless you have no knowledge about throwing.

In "jacket wrestling" environment such as SC or Judo sometime the clinching can cause a dead lock. Your have both sleeve and lapel grips on your opponent, your opponent also has both sleeve and lapel grips on you. When you try to make a move, your opponent shakes you. When your opponent tries to make a move, you shake him. If both you and your opponent has strong grips, it's not that easy to break each others grips (break a clinch). Sometime this clinching can last for a long time and nobody can do anything.

Many years ago there was a challenge match. 2 SC guys challenged a SC master. Those 2 guys had a plan. The 1st guy would play defense and cause a clinching situation to make that master tired in the 1st match. This would be easier for the 2nd guy in his 2nd match. Since that master was good in "breaking a clinch", their plan didn't work.

Another reason to break a clinch is for defense purpose. If your opponent has no grip on you, he cannot throw you. In jacket wrestling, it will be to your advantage if you have:

- 2 grips on your opponent but your opponent has only 1 grip on you.
- 1 grip on your opponent but your opponent has no grip on you.

You try to create such situation by using your "break clinching" skill.

i think his point was probably the clnch can be a great place to be especially if you have skills there and the other person does not, so why would you want to let it go

personally breaking a clinch is done if i feel i am a better striker than the other guy or if he is a better clinch guy (of course wanting to escape the clinch of a better wrestler is one thing, actually doing it is quite another)

YouKnowWho

02-10-2011, 04:01 PM

i think his point was probably the clnch can be a great place to be especially if you have skills there and the other person does not, so why would you want to let it go

personally breaking a clinch is done if i feel i am a better striker than the other guy or if he is a better clinch guy (of course wanting to escape the clinch of a better wrestler is one thing, actually doing it is quite another)

That was exactly what I have said.

To break apart a clinch in non-jacket environment won't make much sense unless you have no knowledge about throwing.

Syn7

02-10-2011, 04:33 PM

That was exactly what I have said.

yeah but it stands true in general as well... even in no gi sub grappling or an mma fight or a street fight... the clinch can be useful in a defensive and offensive situation... you should be proficient at ALL ranges or you simply arent a well rounded fighter...

David Jamieson

02-10-2011, 08:18 PM

Syn7

02-10-2011, 09:21 PM

i like it... not quite sure what it has to do with rodney king tho...

David Jamieson

02-10-2011, 09:31 PM

i like it... not quite sure what it has to do with rodney king tho...

that is rodney king. the bald guy...

i guess you're thinking of the dude that got beat down by the cops 20 or so years ago and it got caught on film and the cops walked and there were riots in L.A?

yeah, this is a different Rodney King.

Now, here's a big choppy knife.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdGXosYf-_A

Frost

02-11-2011, 05:55 AM

Has anyone said push his hip and headbutt him with an elbow follow up yet?

I know the headbutt is illegal in sports, but if you were in tight and facing a guy, would you pass on the opportunity to headbutt him?

Gonna look back through the thread now... :o

here's some rodney king stuff in the meantime.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXc7txj5yCk

nope i actually like headbutts at that range but the problem is, as shown in the clip you posted, head position is a must in the clinch, and its hard to headbutt if you dont have head position

And since this thread went down the road of the plum or double neck tie, its almost impossibler to head butt someone tied up like that because he is controlling the distance with his elbows on your shoulders and your head will be on his chest or lower, pushing the hips so he cant knee is a good idea, but id then run him down into a wall etc to cut distance and then go from there