Power generation and momentum

[Hendrik]

Power Generation and momentum, these are the elements of Fajing.

What comes to your mind reading these?

Care to share?


I think these are very important topic, without knowing it one cant play well.
and also knowing it one will be able to predict the outcome of a match even before the match....

Is it just me thinking this way ?


For me there are three basic type of power generation and they are the dead weight lifting, the Squat, and the bench press type.

and then there are different ways of making use of momentum.

Since different type of power generation will lead to different way of handling momentum, the application strategy naturally fuse into it or it fuse into the application strategy.... that becomes the core of a TCMA.

=================


Just a proposal, can we discuss with politeness and focus on technical only? so that we could get positive constructive view from different people.

Aaron, are you here? join us. get technical, I notice you just delete your post.


for me, there are lots of technical stuffs could be shared and learn instead of go back to the tribal chinese way or my tribe versus your tribe, my tribe is better and older then your tribe.....etc which has all kinds of his-story but wasting of energy when it get into kung fu.

[kung fu fighter]

Power Generation and momentum, these are the elements of Fajing.

What comes to your mind reading these?

Care to share?


I think these are very important topic, without knowing it one cant play well.
and also knowing it one will be able to predict the outcome of a match even before the match....

Is it just me thinking this way ?


For me there are three basic type of power generation and they are the dead weight lifting, the Squat, and the bench press type.

and then there are different ways of making use of momentum.

Since different type of power generation will lead to different way of handling momentum, the application strategy naturally fuse into it or it fuse into the application strategy.... that becomes the core of a TCMA.

=================


Just a proposal, can we discuss with politeness and focus on technical only? so that we could get positive constructive view from different people.

Aaron, are you here? join us. get technical, I notice you just delete your post.


for me, there are lots of technical stuffs could be shared and learn instead of go back to the tribal chinese way or my tribe versus your tribe, my tribe is better and older then your tribe.....etc which has all kinds of his-story but wasting of energy when it get into kung fu.

Hendrik,
Perhaps you can start by explaining what the differences are between what you discribe as hua jing compared to what Aaron discribed as detaching the joints in black flag eng chun.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,
Perhaps you can start by explaining what the differences are between what you discribe as hua jing compared to what Aaron discribed as detaching the joints in black flag eng chun.

Hua Jing means dissolving incoming jing. Aaron is talking about generating power. thus they are different subject.

[Wayfaring]

As Aaron deleted that whole thread on HKB that discussion on power generation is no longer available.

I don't like this trend. If people don't like the way a thread is going, they will delete it. Kind of like a kid picking up his toys, and going home - saying "I won't play with you any longer".

[theo]

what comes to mind for me concerning power generation is:

1. how much power can you generate?
2. how long does it take?
3. how can it be used,manifested?
4. what range can it be effective?

how much power one can generate of course differs depending on how refined our ability to generate one has, but the general process should be the same, since there's only so many ways a human body can be used naturally.

as a close body art, we need to be able to generate the power to support fajing over short distances, such as within an inch. given the distance, the time it takes to generate the power must be instantaneous as well, which implies a need to be able to have fast acceleration.

we also have to be able to use any part of our body as the manifestation of the power when expressed. not only being able to generate the power, but to use it with any part of our body.

[theo]

also what comes to mind is, what type(s) of power are we generating?

[t_niehoff]

Power Generation and momentum, these are the elements of Fajing.

What comes to your mind reading these?

Care to share?


You are going about it from the wrong direction.

To DO what? Hendrik, this is one of your major problems -- you don't just "generate power" for its own sake but to DO certain, specific things. And to DO those certain and specific things, you need to use your body in certain, specific ways (or you won't be able to do them successfully).

So, the root of all this isn't in how you generate power but in what you are DOING to your opponent. If you do the "right" things, you will need to use the "right" mechanics to do them, and so will generate power in the "right" way.

You need to start with the TASK to be performed, and that will lead you directly to the optimal way of performing that task.

[Hendrik]

As Aaron deleted that whole thread on HKB that discussion on power generation is no longer available.

.

If he doesnt feel comfortable going "naked" or having pressure. Then, one needs to respect him. Aaron seems to be a person who is pretty open for discussion.

[Hendrik]

To DO what? Hendrik, this is one of your major problems -- you don't just "generate power" for its own sake but to DO certain, specific things. And to DO those certain and specific things, you need to use your body in certain, specific ways (or you won't be able to do them successfully).



Application strategy and power generation are the two wings of a bird. IMHO.







So, the root of all this isn't in how you generate power but in what you are DOING to your opponent.


If you do the "right" things, you will need to use the "right" mechanics to do them, and so will generate power in the "right" way.

.



Chicken and eggs which comes first, isnt it?
both are needed and can be either way as soon as both are covered. IMHO.

[Wayfaring]

If he doesnt feel comfortable going "naked" or having pressure. Then, one needs to respect him. Aaron seems to be a person who is pretty open for discussion.

While there is not a problem doing this from his perspective, the problem is that someone has taken the time, thoughts, posts of others and deleted those too.

If he is not comfortable with pressure then he should not post his opinions here.

Deleting threads that represent other people's time, energy and posts is dishonest.

[Hendrik]

when doing hua jing, are your joints delinked/unlocked?

how can human delinked/unlocked their joints? is that possible?






Can you discribe what's biomechanically going on t dissolve force?

Go back and read my previous posts on the six directional force vectors. everything is there.

The reason for me bringing up the six directional force vectors is to bring up a tool which one could use to learn about all those jing stuffs.

[t_niehoff]

Application strategy and power generation are the two wings of a bird. IMHO.

Chicken and eggs which comes first, isnt it?
both are needed and can be either way as soon as both are covered. IMHO.

It is abundantly clear which comes first: the task itself. You don't and can't learn how to generate optimal power in throwing a ball WITHOUT throwing the ball. The task itself is the feedback for whether or not you are doing it (generating power) correctly or not. Without doing the task itself, you are only going through the motions.

[Hendrik]

It is abundantly clear which comes first: the task itself. You don't and can't learn how to generate optimal power in throwing a ball WITHOUT throwing the ball. The task itself is the feedback for whether or not you are doing it (generating power) correctly or not. Without doing the task itself, you are only going through the motions.


You have a good point, and might applied to you well.

Does a baby needs to learn how to hold a ball, grasp a ball,....? Does a baby needs to learn how to walk and run and then learn how to play and then join the ball team?


Disregards of what the two wings are needed and one needs to get start some where. and my bottom line is simply, do one get the two wings covered. as for the sequence...etc how one wants to do it that is fine with me.

[Hendrik]

While there is not a problem doing this from his perspective, the problem is that someone has taken the time, thoughts, posts of others and deleted those too.

If he is not comfortable with pressure then he should not post his opinions here.

Deleting threads that represent other people's time, energy and posts is dishonest.

perhaps, the question needs to ask is does the forum provide a reasonable security for people to speak out their technical view instead of getting personal attack.

[Hendrik]

also what comes to mind is, what type(s) of power are we generating?


To be precise, I think it is Momentum generation and handling we are interested in, since it is about collosion and impact....etc.

Since Momentum = speed * mass.

Power generation is the source of speed generation.


Aaron's detach concept doesnt cover the speed part even if one could re arrange the mass or they called it detach....etc. as the boxing falling step is using the dropping of the body mass to pick up, generate.... speed.

As in the HKM clip, one could see it is like whipping Nunchaku. and the end of the Nunchack is shaking. because it is a whipping action, relax muscle is needed instead of tensing muscle, however, muscle is still needed. and the other end of the Nunchack needs to be hold or tie down to a ground or heavier structure....ect. The san chin stance is grasping the ground to form a based. IMHO. and I could be wrong. So, dont trust me.

White crane of fujian is also using the san chin stance with the toes grasping the ground such as the feeding crane calling it " sucking the ground root power" but they dont shake the hands.


and speed comes with acceleration elements which determine how fast the momentum could be generated.


The six directional force vectors concept are explaining how the momentum trajectory and how the impact or neutralization (KFF, Hua Jin) is handle or done.


And, one cant ignore the body because even if as what Terence suggest, the body and whole momentum generation / handling system still needs to be train. otherwise it is an unknown. all Neuron network system needs to be train before it could be used at highly adaptive environment, that is what Terence missed. IMHO.

[t_niehoff]

You have a good point, and might applied to you well.

Does a baby needs to learn how to hold a ball, grasp a ball,....? Does a baby needs to learn how to walk and run and then learn how to play and then join the ball team?


Disregards of what the two wings are needed and one needs to get start some where. and my bottom line is simply, do one get the two wings covered. as for the sequence...etc how one wants to do it that is fine with me.

You can't learn how to generate power by itself -- that is my point (that you don't seem to see). It's not the case of (1) you generate power and (2) you do something with it, rather is it a single process -- the task itself requires you generate power to perform the task. You can't generate power without performing the task. It's not two wings, it is rather the same process. You can't talk about them independently as they don't exist independently.

For example, the way to generate power in doing a hip throw is built into the (technique of the) hip throw. You can't practice the hip throw without also practicing the power generation, and you can't practice the power generation without the hip throw.

[Hendrik]

You can't learn how to generate power by itself -- that is my point (that you don't seem to see). It's not the case of (1) you generate power and (2) you do something with it, rather is it a single process -- the task itself requires you generate power to perform the task. You can't generate power without performing the task. It's not two wings, it is rather the same process. You can't talk about them independently as they don't exist independently.

For example, the way to generate power in doing a hip throw is built into the (technique of the) hip throw. You can't practice the hip throw without also practicing the power generation, and you can't practice the power generation without the hip throw.

ok.


also throwing a based ball and a basket ball are different. and there are different ways of throwing a based ball a basket ball in the game.....depend on how one wants to play.

[t_niehoff]

ok.

also throwing a based ball and a basket ball are different. and there are different ways of throwing a based ball a basket ball in the game.....depend on how one wants to play.

Exactly. It is THE TASK (throwing a specific ball) that is determinative.

When you give a person the "proper" task, they will with practice (trying to perform the task) automatically use the "proper" mechanics, etc. They can't perform the task without it. This is the function of TECHNIQUE.

[Hendrik]

Exactly. It is THE TASK (throwing a specific ball) that is determinative.

When you give a person the "proper" task, they will with practice (trying to perform the task) automatically use the "proper" mechanics, etc. They can't perform the task without it. This is the function of TECHNIQUE.




automatically use the "proper" mechanics, etc.


is the name of the game of the power generation. There are many different ways. Thus, automatically or default into a certain way might not be the proper way.
and there are many proper way with their pro and cons.

Thus, this is a subject needed to be study in depth.

[Wayfaring]

perhaps, the question needs to ask is does the forum provide a reasonable security for people to speak out their technical view instead of getting personal attack.

Actually, a more to the point question would be does the forum provide a reasonable venue for marketing people's WCK, regardless of the background or quality? If people view this forum as an opportunity to reach out to a much broader market than they could manage through YouTube, local training and newspaper, etc., then is this a great place for them to do it and never be challenged?

[YouKnowWho]

speak out their technical view instead of getting personal attack.
First, it will be stupid to give out free information online. Second, you should only give your opinion to those who is friendly to you and asks for it. You should not give your opinion to those who is not friendly to you to start with. The more that you give out your opinion for free, the cheaper that you may look.

Never use your hot face to touch somone's cold ass.

[anerlich]

Actually, a more to the point question would be does the forum provide a reasonable venue for marketing people's WCK, regardless of the background or quality? If people view this forum as an opportunity to reach out to a much broader market than they could manage through YouTube, local training and newspaper, etc., then is this a great place for them to do it and never be challenged?

The answer is probably NO.

People advertise seminars, DVD's etc. on here and there is IMO nothing wrong with that, indeed that may be valuable info for someone.

However, if you claim that it shows stuff that "99% of the WC community don't know" or "only I and my buddies know the true path" or "do it my way or you're a moron" then you deserve all the flamage you get.


Never use your hot face to touch somone's cold ass.

I don't go along with the rest of what you said, but that sentence is certainly tough to argue against :rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

that sentence is certainly tough to argue against :rolleyes:

I just tried that "modern" Chinese joke on my American wife and she did not understand what I was saying. :)

[Hendrik]

1, First, it will be stupid to give out free information online.


2, Second, you should only give your opinion to those who is friendly to you and asks for it. You should not give your opinion to those who is not friendly to you to start with.

3, The more that you give out your opinion for free, the cheaper that you may look.

4, Never use your hot face to touch somone's cold ass.


All kind of people exist in this world.

So,

The above could be excellent points for some.

For those who are confident and have abundant to share, it is not applicable.


to build a better world, without reaching out and sharing, it is impossible.
Not to mention, it is a forum for discussion among WCK lover then to exchange information and view points are expected.

Also, there is no free information, if one doesnt have the kung fu, one doesnt know what it is anyway. however, if one is willing to invest in working on it, free information is everywhere. IMHO

[YouKnowWho]

However, to build a better world, without reaching out and sharing, it is impossible.

Agree 100% there. Sharing is fun but when sharing turn into arguing, it's no longer fun any more. :)

[Hendrik]

Agree 100% there. Sharing is fun but when sharing turn into arguing, it's no longer fun any more. :)

Yup. agree.

The world is complex. and to have a balance is not an easy subject....


care to share your view on this topic?

[Wayfaring]

Agree 100% there. Sharing is fun but when sharing turn into arguing, it's no longer fun any more. :)

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=283175361585&id=76a83288241d9561807d361a07758a61&url=http%3a%2f%2fttbmarketplace.cachefly.net%2fcar _sharesingalong.jpg

Here's a ShareBear just for YKW and Hendrick.

[YouKnowWho]

Yup. agree.

The world is complex. and to have a balance is not an easy subject....care to share your view on this topic?
No matter how peaceful a TCMA discussion may be, the moment that a non-TCMA guy gets involve, the moment that discussion will turn into personal attack. It only takes one person to destroy the fun of the TCMA discussion. A drop of rat's sh!t can destroy the whole jar of good soy paste.

[Hendrik]

No matter how peaceful a TCMA discussion may be, the moment that a non-TCMA guy gets involve, the moment that discussion will turn into personal attack. It only takes one person to destroy the fun of the TCMA discussion. A drop of rat's sh!t can destroy the whole jar of good soy paste.

you are right if you view it that way.


However,
one has a choice to either choose to be a victim and shut up, or take control to ignore the things which is off marks. What matter is get a solid TCMA discussion. What matter is the thing one practice is it making any sense.

[Dave McKinnon]

Ball throwing is a good example of both what Terence and Hendrick are talking about.

I see theory and application being discussed. And I have been reading about sports training theory and some of what I have com across may be insightful.

1. Learning can be done without doing in the early stages of learning. Charts, lectures and video can all be important.

2. As the practitioner learns he has to 1. Perceive the action of the opponent, 2. Decide to use a certain technique (technique, Jing, footwork, etc) and 3. Implement the technique. This is early stage learning and application.

3. Once the practitioner understands the techniques, footwork and tactics, he can apply the method in real time.

4. Advanced development comes from training, drilling and applying (sparring/fighting) the method in real time where technical skill (and real sensitivity) and tactical skill can be developed in parallel.

Back to ball throwing: Hendrick is talking about how to throw the ball from the perspective of skill development - Base level skill of fastball, slider etc. Terence is talking about playing baseball and using the same pitches and learning the tactics of the pitches as well as refinement according to game conditions or opponents.

Or maybe someone has some other ideas....

Dave

[anerlich]

No matter how peaceful a TCMA discussion may be, the moment that a non-TCMA guy gets involve, the moment that discussion will turn into personal attack. It only takes one person to destroy the fun of the TCMA discussion.

There is ample evidence to show that TCMA guys can quite turn discussions vituperative without any assistance from non-TCMA guys.

I'm both a TCMA and non-TCMA guy. Hope I haven't spoiled your fun.

[Wayfaring]

On the ball throwing training methods, one aspect to consider is that advancement in learning measurement and exploration indicate that not all people learn in exactly the same manner.

Some examples of learning aptitudes include visual, aural, tactile learners. Some learners are more technical and need to adjust mechanics based upon a high level of detail. Others are most effective learning the "feel" of something.

So from scientific evidence, there is not one way in which teaching can be applied across the board to ensure learning things like power generation and the application of it in a live environment.

[Hendrik]

(sparring/fighting) the method in real time where technical skill (and real sensitivity) and tactical skill can be developed in parallel.

Back to ball throwing: Hendrick is talking about how to throw the ball from the perspective of skill development - Base level skill of fastball, slider etc. Terence is talking about playing baseball and using the same pitches and learning the tactics of the pitches as well as refinement according to game conditions or opponents.

Or maybe someone has some other ideas....

Dave


Dave,

If I may add, if the skill is not up to a certain level, one simply cant use a certain tactics. and also different task needs different tool, one cant train in dead weight lifting and then go compete squat lifting without knowing what is the nature of squat.

and then in advance level when lots of adaptiveness is needed that will rely on even more skill or kung fu. Thus, in TCMA is said cultivate the Kuen (application) doesnt cultivate the Kung (power generation) when one gets old one's kungfu become useless.

[Hendrik]

So from scientific evidence, there is not one way in which teaching can be applied across the board to ensure learning things like power generation and the application of it in a live environment.


Look at the Kyokushin low sweep application strategy and power generation, one could say yes there is way to train.

may be the quality level different person by person, however, quantitatively a certain standard is possible across the board.

And, it is the intention of the TCMA old trandition to purpusely only teaching the power generation to a very few to control the ownership of the art.

[YouKnowWho]

One of the Baji Fajing method is to compress to the maximum and then release to the maximum. If you extend your left arm forward as far as you can (like a left cross), you then pull your left shoulder back and send out your right arm as far as you can, you should be able to feel the Jing start to transfer from your left arm, to your left shoulder, to your right shoulder, and then reach to your right arm (like a right jab). Since the compression time is very long, the combat usage can only be applied with some "set up".

[theo]

For me there are three basic type of power generation and they are the dead weight lifting, the Squat, and the bench press type.

and then there are different ways of making use of momentum.

Since different type of power generation will lead to different way of handling momentum, the application strategy naturally fuse into it or it fuse into the application strategy.... that becomes the core of a TCMA.



my take on these types:

"dead weight lifting" is where you're only using arm strength for example or localized muscle, 1 vector pair

"Squat" is where the entire body is producing the power starting from the ground up, body compression and expansion as one unit, 3 vector pairs

"bench press" is where you have a segmented structure, upper body strength utilization i.e. rotational, generation via 2 vector pairs

[Dave McKinnon]

Theo: Dead weight lifting uses the whole muscle chain, the weight starts from a static "dead" position. Where as the Squat first compresses structure setting up the drive back to starting. Bench is deceptive and uses many vectors to move the weight correctly. The difference from hobbyist to profesional is light years.

Hendrick, for the most part you are correct but... Like I have been thinking for at least the last few years and I think one of the things Terence is trying to point out, sports are consistent from start to finish. Basic techniques and mechanics are the same from beginner to professional. The real difference is an advanced method of tactics and application along with better physical development. You could count advanced Jing methods in physical or technical development but they are not (or should not be) far from the basic stance structure and power methods.

Dave

[Hendrik]

my take on these types:

"dead weight lifting" is where you're only using arm strength for example or localized muscle, 1 vector pair

"Squat" is where the entire body is producing the power starting from the ground up, body compression and expansion as one unit, 3 vector pairs

"bench press" is where you have a segmented structure, upper body strength utilization i.e. rotational, generation via 2 vector pairs


For me, all these lifting is about different ways of using the body independent of vectors pair.

[Hendrik]

Like I have been thinking for at least the last few years and I think one of the things Terence is trying to point out, sports are consistent from start to finish.

Basic techniques and mechanics are the same from beginner to professional.

The real difference is an advanced method of tactics and application along with better physical development.

ok.




You could count advanced Jing methods in physical or technical development but they are not (or should not be) far from the basic stance structure and power methods.


That is correct. advance means extremely good in using it.

however,

different style has different power and strategy method which comes with the style. and one cannot default it to only one or doesnt know what it is and argue that just doing the application one will know how to get proper power generation, that cant be done for advance TCMA.


as example again, squat and dead weight lifting are different. one must learn these different way in order to get the most effective out of doing it. So, power generation doesnt come by default as physical exercise type. IMHO.

[Hendrik]

One of the Baji Fajing method is to compress to the maximum and then release to the maximum. If you extend your left arm forward as far as you can (like a left cross), you then pull your left shoulder back and send out your right arm as far as you can, you should be able to feel the Jing start to transfer from your left arm, to your left shoulder, to your right shoulder, and then reach to your right arm (like a right jab). Since the compression time is very long, the combat usage can only be applied with some "set up".

I see this different then you. I see it as, if one's body is long term train this way, even when one is not use exactly this method, the body has been condition to do this type of operation, thus this type of power signature will be shown within the action.

[Wayfaring]

Look at the Kyokushin low sweep application strategy and power generation, one could say yes there is way to train.

may be the quality level different person by person, however, quantitatively a certain standard is possible across the board.

And, it is the intention of the TCMA old trandition to purpusely only teaching the power generation to a very few to control the ownership of the art.

I didn't say there is not a way to train, only that people have different ways they learn. Different ways of learning says nothing as to quality levels, only to the different approaches.

TCMA old tradition falls down in this. Closed off, closed teachings, lack of open exposure and testing. It is somewhat in opposites to the sport training methodology, and thus there is control of ownership of the art but low levels of quality control and effectiveness. The closed nature of it pretty much goes against the open testing and competition minded development.

[hunt1]

While I understand the attempt I do not agree with the comparison of weight lifting to wing chun since it may lead one down the wrong path.

Example proper dead weight lifting ( I assume dead lift it what is being compared. Hendrick if you are not referring to the dead lift then disregard) is never ever done with the arm. Who ever said this has not even basic knowledge of proper weightlifting technique and is giving information to the public than can lead to injury.


There are 2 types of squats power and olympic. Power is done with a stance wider than the wing chun shoulder stance. As one's stance gets wider the flow of chi through the Kidney ,Liver and if wide enough spleen meridians is cut off. This may be of limited practical value to a weight lifter but should be of concern to wing chun players. . Other major differences include where the weight is carried .


Dead lift and squat are not 2 separate means of power generation. They complement each other. Both action are initiated with the hips ( this is what I believe is meant to be the similar to wing chun part. Also both have a heel and ball of foot usage that crosses over to wing chun depending upon driving or receiving or releasing the weight). The return of one exercise is the initiation of the other.

The bench press does relate in that the punch comes from the heart and the usage of the shoulder should be the same however the use of the arms is different. The engagement of the triceps being the most obvious.

Also for wing chun the movements of all 3 systems are meant to be connected however in lifting they are not if done properly. Proper bench press the back remains flat no arching and limited leg engagement for example. Dead lift the arm is engaged not as a delivery system but only to provide the grip. You do not pull with the arms. The move begins with the hip drive up from the heel and the shoulders only come into play at the end of the move. Squat no arms usage except for grip and stability of the weight.

[t_niehoff]

While I understand the attempt I do not agree with the comparison of weight lifting to wing chun since it may lead one down the wrong path.

Example proper dead weight lifting ( I assume dead lift it what is being compared. Hendrick if you are not referring to the dead lift then disregard) is never ever done with the arm. Who ever said this has not even basic knowledge of proper weightlifting technique and is giving information to the public than can lead to injury.


There are 2 types of squats power and olympic. Power is done with a stance wider than the wing chun shoulder stance. As one's stance gets wider the flow of chi through the Kidney ,Liver and if wide enough spleen meridians is cut off. This may be of limited practical value to a weight lifter but should be of concern to wing chun players. . Other major differences include where the weight is carried .


Dead lift and squat are not 2 separate means of power generation. They complement each other. Both action are initiated with the hips ( this is what I believe is meant to be the similar to wing chun part. Also both have a heel and ball of foot usage that crosses over to wing chun depending upon driving or receiving or releasing the weight). The return of one exercise is the initiation of the other.

The bench press does relate in that the punch comes from the heart and the usage of the shoulder should be the same however the use of the arms is different. The engagement of the triceps being the most obvious.

Also for wing chun the movements of all 3 systems are meant to be connected however in lifting they are not if done properly. Proper bench press the back remains flat no arching and limited leg engagement for example. Dead lift the arm is engaged not as a delivery system but only to provide the grip. You do not pull with the arms. The move begins with the hip drive up from the heel and the shoulders only come into play at the end of the move. Squat no arms usage except for grip and stability of the weight.

The bench press has nothing to do with the WCK punch. The arm is not what generates the power in the punch.

[t_niehoff]

I am going to teach you to swim. First, you need to learn the power generation methods (you can't move through the water without power, right?). Then, I will teach you the strokes (which use the power). How silly is that?

You learn the task, and the power generation method is built into the performance of the task (the skill).

[hunt1]

Sorry T but you are showing a lack of understanding and just reading what you want not what is written. Where did I ever say the arm generates power for the punch? The arm does not generate power for the punch not does it generate the primary power for the bench press.

Before I will discuss anything further with you please be a gentleman and show me where I said what you say I said.

[YouKnowWho]

I won't call linear line as Fajing but I'll call exponential curve as Fajing (power generation).

Not Fajin

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1944/linear.jpg

General Fajing

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4350/exponential1.jpg

Good Fajing

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/313/fastexponential.jpg

[t_niehoff]

Sorry T but you are showing a lack of understanding and just reading what you want not what is written. Where did I ever say the arm generates power for the punch? The arm does not generate power for the punch not does it generate the primary power for the bench press.

Before I will discuss anything further with you please be a gentleman and show me where I said what you say I said.

"The bench press does relate in that the punch comes from the heart and the usage of the shoulder should be the same however the use of the arms is different. The engagement of the triceps being the most obvious."

Perhaps I misread you. It seemed you were "relating" the WCK punch to the bench press (which involves arm strength). Hence my conclusion.

If you know that the WCK punch does not rely on the arm for power (it acts as a conduit), and that the bench press does rely on arm strength, AND that the mechanics for the punch are completely different than that for the bench press, then you should realize that the two have nothing in common. And in that case, I wouldn't expect you to "relate" the two. If I misinterpreted your remarks, I'm sorry.

[Hendrik]

While I understand the attempt I do not agree with the comparison of weight lifting to wing chun since it may lead one down the wrong path.





I brought these up to illustrate the general different way of generate power. so people can see the different instead of just lifting weight and "here is the weight, go lift it and you will know how. keep lifting and you will be good at it. " never say anything about wing chun.

[Hendrik]

I won't call linear line as Fajing but I'll call exponential curve as Fajing (power generation).

Not Fajin

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1944/linear.jpg

General Fajing

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4350/exponential1.jpg

Good Fajing

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/313/fastexponential.jpg



For me, all of the above and different combination of them is fajing.

[YouKnowWho]

If we consider pushing a car or bench press as "power generation" then we may not be able to distinguish "劲(Jing) - exponential power" from "力(Li) - linear power". The 劲(Jing) is always better than the 力(Li) and also much harder to develop it.

[Hendrik]

There are 2 types of squats power and olympic.

Power is done with a stance wider than the wing chun shoulder stance. As one's stance gets wider the flow of chi through the Kidney ,Liver and if wide enough spleen meridians is cut off.


what does these chi stuffs contribute to power generation? and how is it sense and measure to know it is actually contributing? Care to share?

[hunt1]

All's good, apology accepted

What I was alluding to was two things. First the shoulder and upper arm form a ball and socket joint or close enough for discussion.
Both the bench press and the punch require this connection to be maintained.

Wing Chun folks always hear about don't tense arm don't raise shoulder etc. They are really being taught to maintain the connection of arm to shoulder . When people punch fast etc they loose this connection the ball starts to move away from the socket. When the connection is lost punches become arm punches and the ability to utilize the power of the body lessens. Bench press is the same the connection must be maintained. This is why some are taught to squeeze at the end of the motion. The squeeze is a trick to roll the ball into the socket at the point of full extension because it is at this point the tendency is to lose the connection.

That is the shoulder for the punch the connection is that muscles and tendons do not exist in isolation they connect to and overlap each other. Hence when you do a bench press the chest is stimulated even though it is the arms that are doing the action. Same for the punch while many look at a punch as an arm only action to do so ignores the fast that the arm is connected to the chest. The same muscles and tendons stimulated by a weight are stimulated when punching if one is maintaining the upper arm shoulder joint connection. If a person learns to "punch from the heart" they will be able to maintain this connection while moving at speed.

So nothing about power generation only the physical overlap of the activities.

[hunt1]

On second thought.

[imperialtaichi]

what does these chi stuffs contribute to power generation? and how is it sense and measure to know it is actually contributing? Care to share?

In my opinion, training through the "Qi" method is a way of "tweaking" the body to behave a certain way where normal "athletic" type of training may not produce the same result. For example, professional swimmers are taught to "feel" the water, other sport people are also taught similar "mental" techniques. In sport science, they refer this to "mind mapping", "sensory feedback" etc; in TCMA, it is called "Qi".

I do believe, these type of training is useful, if we look at it within the physiological framework; unfortunately, when one starts to turn in into some mythical force (like Jedi) the result and expectation becomes a fantasy.

For example, if you are so use to using the Baat Jaam Do, even when you are not holding them in your hands, you can move and generate power as if they are there (it's been mind-mapped). Cage fighters like to train with sledge hammers, Japanese arts with Bokken/Katana. It all change the way the body is used, more than just punching the bags. Imagining extension of "Qi" through the body, or imagining the body turning into steel (use by Hard Qigong), also tweak the body as well. But is it Qi, or is it mental training.

Cheers,
John

[Hendrik]

If we consider pushing a car or bench press as "power generation" then we may not be able to distinguish "劲(Jing) - exponential power" from "力(Li) - linear power". The 劲(Jing) is always better than the 力(Li) and also much harder to develop it.

For me,

a JIng is a vector force or force with and intended direction and timed for the result to be achieved.

a Li is a force with a dull intended direction and time independent.


as for how the power to support this jing or li is generated is the power generation process.

[imperialtaichi]

If we consider pushing a car or bench press as "power generation" then we may not be able to distinguish "劲(Jing) - exponential power" from "力(Li) - linear power". The 劲(Jing) is always better than the 力(Li) and also much harder to develop it.

Li is more a measurement of physical strength, and Jing is more the combined resultant power. Of course, anyone who says that Li is not important is dreaming; but a well trained fighter with less Li can still generate way more resultant power than someone with bigger muscles.

Components of Jing generation includes Li, Body mechanics, how to utilize the opponent's mental/reflex/body reactions, and other factors we may not have full understanding of yet.

[Hendrik]

In my opinion, training through the "Qi" method is a way of "tweaking" the body to behave a certain way where normal "athletic" type of training may not produce the same result. For example, professional swimmers are taught to "feel" the water, other sport people are also taught similar "mental" techniques. In sport science, they refer this to "mind mapping", "sensory feedback" etc; in TCMA, it is called "Qi".

I do believe, these type of training is useful, if we look at it within the physiological framework; unfortunately, when one starts to turn in into some mythical force (like Jedi) the result and expectation becomes a fantasy.

For example, if you are so use to using the Baat Jaam Do, even when you are not holding them in your hands, you can move and generate power as if they are there (it's been mind-mapped). Cage fighters like to train with sledge hammers, Japanese arts with Bokken/Katana. It all change the way the body is used, more than just punching the bags. Imagining extension of "Qi" through the body, or imagining the body turning into steel (use by Hard Qigong), also tweak the body as well. But is it Qi, or is it mental training.

Cheers,
John




Thanks for your view.

For me, what you describe is Neural programing of the physical body with intention is the commanding lead.

Qi and medirians training is a different thing compare with the above. Qi is real and could be evoked but that is different then what you describe above. So, until the Qi could be evoked and sense, the medirian's content is just a "believe it exist" for now deal which might not exist and supporting the training.


In the case of power generation contribution of Qi medirians....etc. those are very fuzzy for most people who think there is contribution.
Just my view.

[Hendrik]

This is power generation and momentum handling for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2mNXylePng&feature=related

all structure, Qi, ....Yi... six directional force vanished but "dance with feeling". No one says one is invincible but one needs to be able to play elegantly.

[imperialtaichi]

Qi and medirians training is a different thing compare with the above. Qi is real and could be evoked but that is different then what you describe above. So, until the Qi could be evoked and sense, the medirian's content is just a "believe it exist" for now deal which might not exist and supporting the training.

I accept your view as well.

The only difficulty, is the limitation of our brains. We can only go by what we perceive. For something as illusive as "Qi", it is next to impossible to establish whether or not it exists, its nature or if it is a synesthetic sensation associated with our neural wiring.

But what's important, in my opinion, is whether the "Qi Model" can be used to explain things and improve performance. The practical side of using this concept.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

This is power generation and momentum handling for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2mNXylePng&feature=related

all structure, Qi, ....Yi... six directional force vanished but "dance with feeling". No one says one is invincible but one needs to be able to play elegantly.

"Don't just beat up the guy. Look good while doing it." ;)

[Hendrik]

I accept your view as well.

The only difficulty, is the limitation of our brains. We can only go by what we perceive. For something as illusive as "Qi", it is next to impossible to establish whether or not it exists, its nature or if it is a synesthetic sensation associated with our neural wiring.

But what's important, in my opinion, is whether the "Qi Model" can be used to explain things and improve performance. The practical side of using this concept.

Cheers,
John


IMHO,


For me, Qi needs to be surface in order to go to that level of training. and to cultivate Qi is not that obvious at all. however, it is a tangible thing which could be directed via intention but not rely on intention for its existence.


for me, it is not a "qi model" it is another reality of human living. Qi is not everything but something specific.

Qi is different then the neural programing and six directional force vectors....etc.

Compare with those who is in 1850, we dont have lots of fundamental training in this area. For them, they view their body as wave or electrical beside biochemical. and Qi is the electrical side.

Modern western view block the electrical part of the body so one trap in another paradigm.... and once we block the electrical part lots of body function control become not possible because we block it.

[Hendrik]

"Don't just beat up the guy. Look good while doing it." ;)

Otherwise no point for doing it. hahaha

[Hendrik]

TCMA old tradition falls down in this. Closed off, closed teachings, lack of open exposure and testing. It is somewhat in opposites to the sport training methodology, and thus there is control of ownership of the art but low levels of quality control and effectiveness. The closed nature of it pretty much goes against the open testing and competition minded development.


That is the reason I keep bring up the snake and crane....power generation signature....etc.

One will not know what is going on if these things are not iron out.

[GlennR]

Plenty of people generate a lot of power without having to refer to cranes and snakes.

Was this thread about power generation or was it really about your own take on WC? (emei, sanke etc)

[Wayfaring]

That is the reason I keep bring up the snake and crane....power generation signature....etc.

One will not know what is going on if these things are not iron out.

So in place of open testing of arts we replace this with seeing if there are certain power generation signatures?

All that tells you is if someone passed it down, not if anyone can use it to fight effectively.

[Hendrik]

Plenty of people generate a lot of power without having to refer to cranes and snakes.

True, and they dont have to.




Was this thread about power generation or was it really about your own take on WC? (emei, sanke etc)



power generation is topic.
WC, Weight lifting, boxing, snake, emei... are specific within the topic of power generation any one could brought up and share their view as already in the previous posts.

you can share your view too.

[Hendrik]

So in place of open testing of arts we replace this with seeing if there are certain power generation signatures?

All that tells you is if someone passed it down, not if anyone can use it to fight effectively.


true.

and without having it what do people use? and is it still the art one think it is? can it do what it means to do? lots of questions for those who has interest to dig deep.

[Wayfaring]

true.

and without having it what do people use? and is it still the art one think it is? can it do what it means to do? lots of questions for those who has interest to dig deep.

IMO this is why the open testing and sport training paradigm is the only realistic way forward. Otherwise you have such subjective views. There is no filter for how something genuinely applies to fighting, only whether or not the art is what one thinks it is. Whether it has certain power generation signatures or not.

The question of "can it do what it means to do?" is one that really only has an answer in a competitive testing scenario. Otherwise how is it proven? Chi sau "competitions"? Breaking demonstrations? Or worse, fable-like stories over tea about how someone got in a street scrape "back in the day"?

If arts are trained realistically, then there are little adjustments people learn how to make that end up being the most important parts of it. Lyoto Machida has done this with traditional JKA shotokan karate. What he trains is a little different than a traditional JKA school.

If arts are not trained realistically, then they tend to wander off the mark. Nobody learns the little adjustments. Conditioning goes by the wayside, and legend builds in its place. If that happens, then all the "quality control" of the originators becomes valueless, as the art is not tested in the proper crucible to burn off impurities.

[Hendrik]

IMO this is why the open testing and sport training paradigm is the only realistic way forward. Otherwise you have such subjective views. There is no filter for how something genuinely applies to fighting, only whether or not the art is what one thinks it is. Whether it has certain power generation signatures or not.

The question of "can it do what it means to do?" is one that really only has an answer in a competitive testing scenario. Otherwise how is it proven? Chi sau "competitions"? Breaking demonstrations? Or worse, fable-like stories over tea about how someone got in a street scrape "back in the day"?

If arts are trained realistically, then there are little adjustments people learn how to make that end up being the most important parts of it. Lyoto Machida has done this with traditional JKA shotokan karate. What he trains is a little different than a traditional JKA school.

If arts are not trained realistically, then they tend to wander off the mark. Nobody learns the little adjustments. Conditioning goes by the wayside, and legend builds in its place. If that happens, then all the "quality control" of the originators becomes valueless, as the art is not tested in the proper crucible to burn off impurities.

True and agree.