forms or shadowboxing

[MightyB]

I've heard it said that a boxer's shadowboxing is a type of forms training... in a way - I guess you could say that, but to me there's a big difference in the two approaches. That being forms are pre-choreographed and shadow boxing is fluid and spontaneous. If after a person has learned some prerequisite forms, should they then strive to find a way to shadow-box using a logical progression of techniques derived from the forms? If so, do you think that this type of training is beneficial?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Shadowboxing like you said flows and is done spontaneously from techniques you train often. I have always compared shadowboxing to other more resistant training because you are going through the motions at a slower pace but with some intent still behind them.

You can pick apart basics and forms and do those techniques in shadowboxing, as you should. Everything form punches, kicks, knees, elbows, animal techniques, and throws can be practiced and simulated in shadowboxing. I find this more beneficial than forms because forms being a set pattern does not provide you with different scenirios, it is the same thing over and over and although people may say it can be used for this or that, more often it is made to fit in the mold of this or that when someone tries to explain something.

The whole idea of techniques hidden in forms or forms having secret moves is a load of sh**it. Take the techniques from the form, than practice how you would use them sparring or fighting, and shadowboxing builds a good base for this.

[David Jamieson]

They're two different things really.

Forms are choreographed patterns that can be expressed as natural movement, but takes time to get there. Also, forms contain lessons associated wit the style. Not so much a work out or fluidity drills, which is what shadow boxing is.

Shadow boxing is freestyle integration of footwork to hand work. No choreography and only in terms of what you are going to use with none of the superfluous.

Boxing is also not the same as TCMA in many respects and therefore has different approach to footwork and movement.

I do both and find them to be totally different on many levels.

combo drills are more like a boxers form work. If a person was to do free style combos from his style without putting it into the framework of a given form, then that would be closer.

[kungfoozer]

Forms are good for beginners and old people. Shadowboxing is good for all ages all levels of skill and should be practiced from beginning to end.

[David Jamieson]

Forms are good for beginners and old people. Shadowboxing is good for all ages all levels of skill and should be practiced from beginning to end.

dude, please stop commenting. you are cluttering threads with your jibberish.

beginning to end? lol wtf?

[EarthDragon]

Gene ban this dude please! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mysterious power you are on 13 peopels ignore list, all we have to do is ask other members to put you on so no one has to read your comments.

[kungfoozer]

Why should I be banned? You keep starting trouble with me. I'm not mysteriouspower. I'm kungfoozer. Learn to read. It doesn't sound or look anything like mysteriouspower.

[bawang]

form is not shadowboxing

if u cant spontaneously do ur techniques ur techniques are too convoluted

[donjitsu2]

there is no reason anyone can't do both.

[YouKnowWho]

IMO, form is for teaching and learning only. Since it's not for training, we should not compare form with shadow boxing. If you train drills such as:

- jab
- jab, cross
- jab, cross, upper cut
- jab, cross, upper cut, hook

then no matter you repeat it just once or 20 times, the way that you train drills will be no different from shadow boxing.

Since drills involve throwing which does not exist in shadow boxing, there are more complicate footwork pattern involved.

[kungfoozer]

Here's a semi-serious analogy.

When you guys have sex do you do it all in a set pattern or are you spontaneous? Which one excites your girlfriend/wife more?

I guess for the old married couples forms are a good thing just like old people in kung foo :)

[bawang]

in northern chiense martial arts shadow boxing is mostly done on the sandbag

[Lucas]

Here's a semi-serious analogy.

When you guys have sex do you do it all in a set pattern or are you spontaneous? Which one excites your girlfriend/wife more?

I guess for the old married couples forms are a good thing just like old people in kung foo :)

any real sex guru knows its both. if you are a bad ass there are some things you do that a woman will request. and no im not joking, if you dont know what im talking about, go practice more.

it often goes like this 'do 'that thing' you do' (that thing differs depending on the man and woman, because every woman is like a snowflake, and you will develop a series of special techniques to cater to her uniqueness) and its often very similar to a form. combination of techniques you have mastered and can do in a precise manner upon request. always producing the same results. that is precicely why it is requested. again if you think im joking, you just havent gotten to that point yet.

spontineity is the king for sure, and gets the largest amount of best results, but if you are any real man, you do get requests from time to time for a formation you have mastered. thats a fact of life.

[YouKnowWho]

When you guys have sex do you do it all in a set pattern or are you spontaneous? Which one excites your girlfriend/wife more?

You find out what your love one likes and stick to it and never change it. Love making is not for you. It's for your love one.

If you find a fighting method that work for you, stick to it for the rest of your life, and never change it.

[EarthDragon]

kungfoozer

y should I be banned? You keep starting trouble with me. I'm not mysteriouspower. I'm kungfoozer. Learn to read. It doesn't sound or look anything like mysteriouspower.

your logging in from the same IP address genius..........

[kungfoozer]

kungfoozer


your logging in from the same IP address genius..........

IP adresses don't mean anything, genius. I hope your king fu is better than your computer knowledge.

[hskwarrior]

The other day i went out side and saw a FULL MOON.........I LIKE FULL MOONS.......:D

[kungfoozer]

The other day i went out side and saw a FULL MOON.........I LIKE FULL MOONS.......:D

Me too! Dude, I think we're having a special moment...

[hskwarrior]

Me too! Dude, I think we're having a special moment...

My bad, it wasn't a full moon afterwards. It was some kid hanging from a tree with his pants down. never mind. :o

[EarthDragon]

My bad, it wasn't a full moon afterwards. It was some kid hanging from a tree with his pants down. never mind.

LOL his name wanst kungfoozer power was it?

[TenTigers]

any real sex guru knows its both. if you are a bad ass there are some things you do that a woman will request. and no im not joking, if you dont know what im talking about, go practice more.

it often goes like this 'do 'that thing' you do' (that thing differs depending on the man and woman, because every woman is like a snowflake, and you will develop a series of special techniques to cater to her uniqueness) and its often very similar to a form. combination of techniques you have mastered and can do in a precise manner upon request. always producing the same results. that is precicely why it is requested. again if you think im joking, you just havent gotten to that point yet.

spontineity is the king for sure, and gets the largest amount of best results, but if you are any real man, you do get requests from time to time for a formation you have mastered. thats a fact of life.

add to that, being spontaneous is doing "that thing you do" out of nowhere, rather than in a planned routine.
Fighting is the same way.

[kungfoozer]

add to that, being spontaneous is doing "that thing you do" out of nowhere, rather than in a planned routine.
Fighting is the same way.

So your plan is to train routines(forms) to cultivate spontaneity?

[Drake]

IP adresses don't mean anything, genius. I hope your king fu is better than your computer knowledge.

Actually, they do.

[iunojupiter]

I think what TT is saying is that every fighter has a few techniques that they do better than all of their other techniques. It could be a triangle choke, an armbar out of nowhere, a good 3 attack combo, a takedown they can do from any situation... you get what I'm saying.
The good fighter is spontaneous in that they don't just do the same move over and over for the length of the fight. It's not one-two kick, one-two kick over and over again. It's a random assortment of kicks, punches, and takedown attempts.. and then BAM, that "Thing-they-do". With luck, it's game over.

...
cheers
:D

[David Jamieson]

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy32/Sonicbowling/TROLL.jpg

Can someone do a quick clean up in Aisle three here please? :p

[kungfoozer]

Actually, they do.

They don't produce spontaneity on their own without incorporating other training methods. The premise of this thread is if forms or shadowboxing are better for producing spontaneity.


It's not about arguing. It's about agreeing and disagreeing. I don't happen to agree. Deal with it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

They are two different things each aiming to each specific purposes.
Prearranged forms are prearranged for a reason ( whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant as to WHY it was done this way).

Think of prearranged forms as a specific routine in which B follows A because it is needed to be that way, An analogy would be doing Strength training in a set routine to get certain gains, for example:
DOing a routine that does your chest first and then your triceps works a specific order of things, just like doing your triceps first and then your chest would work a different specific order of things.
Both have merits but both will not get the same results.

[kungfoozer]

Sanjuro,

If you were training for a fight, either in the ring or street/challenge, would you do forms or shadowboxing. The fight is going to happen in a week so you don' t have much time to train.

I pose this question to all of you. Spontaneity in a fight is king.

[Drake]

Sanjuro,

If you were training for a fight, either in the ring or street/challenge, would you do forms or shadowboxing. The fight is going to happen in a week so you don' t have much time to train.

I pose this question to all of you. Spontaneity in a fight is king.

No, it isn't. You can try and surprise me all you like. Unless you can spew fire from your mouth, I pretty much have a tool for anything you do. Spontaneous really sounds like an excuse for inexperience. We have tried and true methods because they work. The clinch works, so people are going to go for it. Trying to be spontaneous by using something less effective will end in heartbreak.

[David Jamieson]

You are trying to lift someone up who is actively trying to pull you down.

Why bother with Obvious troll? :rolleyes:

[kungfoozer]

No, it isn't. You can try and surprise me all you like. Unless you can spew fire from your mouth, I pretty much have a tool for anything you do. Spontaneous really sounds like an excuse for inexperience. We have tried and true methods because they work. The clinch works, so people are going to go for it. Trying to be spontaneous by using something less effective will end in heartbreak.

I didn't mean spontaneously try to hit with crazy random punches like a tazmaninan devil. Spontaneity, as I was using it, was meant more for being able to change in a situation when the opponent changes. In Japanese it is referred to as henka(variations).

You brought up the clinch so we'll run with that for a bit. Someone clinches and starts kneeing you. So instead of just standing there and getting hit you: 1. Move forward so he can't knee you, 2. Put your arms down to block the knees while trying to maneuver out.

That is the spontaneity I was referring to.

David, if you can't be in this discussion like an adult please leave. Your random sarcastic comments are adding nothing of value.

[David Jamieson]

David, if you can't be in this discussion like an adult please leave. Your random sarcastic comments are adding nothing of value.

My case in point. See how the troll cries when he is called out for being a troll?
lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sanjuro,

If you were training for a fight, either in the ring or street/challenge, would you do forms or shadowboxing. The fight is going to happen in a week so you don' t have much time to train.

I pose this question to all of you. Spontaneity in a fight is king.

I think you are missing the point, it is NOT and has never been a either/or situation.
Both have its merits but they are not the same thing.
EVERY single athlete goes through the "prearranged" forms phase, dancers do it, gymnasts do it, every one does it.
It serves its purpose.
As does "free style forms" like shadow boxing.
It is not an either/or thing.

[EarthDragon]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake
Actually, they do.

They don't produce spontaneity on their own without incorporating other training methods. The premise of this thread is if forms or shadowboxing are better for producing spontaneity.

Drake was reffering to IP adresses here. please read the post. and unless your honey potting your IP address was recorded when you joined...

[kungfoozer]

I think you are missing the point, it is NOT and has never been a either/or situation.
Both have its merits but they are not the same thing.
EVERY single athlete goes through the "prearranged" forms phase, dancers do it, gymnasts do it, every one does it.
It serves its purpose.
As does "free style forms" like shadow boxing.
It is not an either/or thing.

You stated that dancers go through a prearranged form PHASE meaning they stopped it eventually and moved onto other things.

What would your answer be to my question?

[David Jamieson]

You stated that dancers go through a prearranged form PHASE meaning they stopped it eventually and moved onto other things.



In Dance, you will always be subject to the choreographer. Every performance you do, you will be engaged with a choreographer who will tell you EXACTLY what it is you are going to do and you do it.

In swan lake, the black swan does exactly 32 pirouettes for instance.
The Pas de deux is the dance of two people together.

When you go and see classical ballet, if you understand what you are watching, you will see not a lot of variation in a performance by a company from Moscow or a Company from Canada. It is because Ballet is an art form and has had a very structured development since Louis the 14th of France made it so.

All other forms of dance right up to free styling demand that you learn, know and understand the principles. the shapes are expressions of the art form and equally expression of the individual's knowledge of the art form.

Here's another example. A two sided blade has a limited amount of ways it can be used and is guided by a limited amount of principles in it's most effective use.

With a sword, you can draw, thrust, flip, rotate, butt and parry. When you organize those ideas into a way to learn the principles, you have a form. the form is the learning tool. When you get to free form work, you are a swordsman.

Form teaches principles in a fairly efficient way. Once you get the principles and have developed the physical ability, like a dancer learning various ballets, you can enjoy learning different forms without having to worry about having weak stances or not knowing applications etc.

If you know principles, you know applications. Form helps to get there for the unseasoned and fresh in the door learners. It's simply a pedagogical model that works for some.

Others do not have the time or inclination to do forms and instead spend time they could be learning, trolling Kungfumagazine forums and laying down the vitriol because they feel inadequate amongst all of those who have the "secrets" lol.

Even though, there are no secrets, just fetch wood, carry water.
If a person is of the correct mind, martial arts is a wider study than just some narrow aspect of it be that forms or be that kick boxing or be that swords and weapons.

principles are everything. style is pretty much irrelevant. It's like putting on a shirt. Pick one and get to work. No magic bullets and no amount of training in anything will prevent a punch from smashing you in the face at some point. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

You stated that dancers go through a prearranged form PHASE meaning they stopped it eventually and moved onto other things.

What would your answer be to my question?

What David said above.
As for spontaneity.
I think you may mean "unpredictability", which is a huge asset for any fighter.

[hskwarrior]

Originally Posted by kungfoozer
If you were training for a fight, either in the ring or street/challenge, would you do forms or shadowboxing. The fight is going to happen in a week so you don' t have much time to train.

I pose this question to all of you. Spontaneity in a fight is king.

Did your sifu really fuk you up in the head that bad to think and KEEP thinking that TCMA people equate FIGHTING with FORMS? I mean where the FUK do you get that idea that TCMA people would just go do a form to prepare for a fight?

seriously, why does it bother ANYONE that within TMA forms are practiced? WHAT THE FUK IS THE BIG DEAL? I NEVER in my life as a student of TCMA heard that THIS FORM WILL MAKE YOU A FIGHTER. If its not your cup of tea, don't drink it. Or, do you and all the other form haters feel that it's gonna be YOU to make TMA's stop practicing their forms because YOU don't like them?

[TenTigers]

Mo-Wai, or spontaneous action/reaction is a by product of solid, intelligent training. You need to imerse yourself, absorb and thoroughly understand before you can disgard.
This is what Bruce Lee was trying to convey in his JKD, but unfortunately, people only parrott his words, and become dabblers who consider themselves experts.

Too many people for whatever reason, poor teaching, poor understanding, poor ethics, etc think they "know it," and are able to make that decision, when in actuality, they only have the skin and hair.

To truly answer this question, you need to first understand and define what exactly is shadowboxing, and why is it used, and what exactly are forms, and why are they used?

Here are my thoughts; forms are the textbook. Take the techniques from them that you feel you want to work on, and practice them. First as individual techniques, (in boxing, jab, cross, uppercut, hook, etc)then in logical effective combinations (double jab,hook off the jab, uppercut/hook) then, once you have experience in this, practice shadowboxing, striving to have them come out naturally. Do this in the mirror to check your form, on the bag, and with a partner.

It doesn't really matter if it's boxing, Wing Chun, CLF or BaJi. The concept is the same.
But, as Sanjuro says, they are two different things. Once you can wrap your head around this, you will not have a problem.

[EarthDragon]

great post david J

[hskwarrior]

Shadow Boxing: Shadowboxing is an exercise used in the training for combat sports, especially, as its name implies, in boxing. It is used mainly to prepare the muscles before the person training engages in stronger physical activity. In shadowboxing, only one person is required to participate; the participant throws punches at no one in particular. Muhammad Ali once performed a now famous shadowboxing routine next to Howard Cosell for ABC's Wide World of Sports television cameras.

Forms: describing detailed choreographed patterns of movements practiced either solo or in pairs, a solo participant throws punches at no one in particular.

practicing your fighting techniques over and over again is just a tool to achieve the ability to apply them in realistic combat. although you memorize the techniques it does not mean you can apply them. this is why in most TCMA you train forms (in the CHINESE TRADITIONAL WAY...NOT the new and modern sports model of fighting) you're working on the TECHNICAL aspects of the fighting technique while EMBEDDING them in your mind by repeatedly performing your techniques within the forms.

When we do forms, we don't just mindlessly perform techniques. At least for myself and who i teach, you try to be "in the moment" mentally during forms practice. You're training you mind to apply the techniques as they were designed within the form. Yes, forms are choreographed patterns of movements, but so is SHADOW BOXING. the only difference is WHAT IS BEING PRACTICED during said practice.

In shadow boxing you imagine ducking & striking, you work on your footwork, rhythm, mindset, along with other things.

in FORMS practice we are imagining blocking, kicking, striking, take downs, sweeps, joint locks and so forth while using the techniques found within our respective systems. BUT, we know it doesn't stop there. Most TCMA students look forward to two man spar forms because NOW we get to practice our techniques against another person. All the while, ingraining the systems techniques even deeper because we are getting to WORK our techniques.

Then when you start sparring, you are strictly using the fundamentals of the system you are learning and not incorporating other methods of fighting. in other words, you exclusively work the method of "Blah Blah Blah" and try not to BOX and what not. Sparring may be shaky at first, but the more you sparred the more experience you got because no matter what you were sticking to your styles method of fighting.

To what level of sparring one does is up to the two people doing it. light, medium, hard. the first two would be good enough for daily training. this level will help you learn to apply your techniques in a methodical way.

FORMS OR SHADOW BOXING? if you have the right frame of mind while you're training, both are good. sure, you can take the stuff from the forms and practice them like a BOXING Shadow Boxer would. either way, you're working your stuff.

so why practice forms if you can do it this or that way? TRADITION. in my eyes, if you join a traditional school, you do what they do or find another place to train that suits your needs.

also, what you call SHADOW boxing, we have been calling it FREESTYLE. and to be able to freestyle is important to knowing how well you understand your system.

[Lucas]

a way of adding spontineity to your form is to have someone attack you. you will have an opportunity to work many variations of what ever section you are working on. your attackers will use different attacks for the same sections, forcing you to react with an appropriate response to defend/parrycounterattack/etc.

you can add as many attackers as you like. due to the fact that there is a certain degree of choreography still involved, real attacks can be used. depending on how comfortable you are with your training partners of course.

beginners often hear how your forms have many variations of technique for any particular section, this is a great way to actively explore those variations. learn the form first though. :p