"Pathology of Iron Palm" Book

[PlumDragon]

KFMers,

Im pleased to announce that the new book, "Pathology of Iron Palm" is NOW available for pre-order. During pre-order, this book is availabe for $5 off the cover price of $45. Pre-order will last for approximately 3 weeks (were not sure exactly how long yet) and we plan to ship all pre-ordered copies of the book prior to Christmas.

If you want to see whats in this book and why its different than other iron palm products, read a description, see the table of contents, or make a pre-order purchase, you can read more here:

http://www.plumdragonherbs.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/255

Im proud to be offering this book and I believe that every one who trains in, teaches, or has a passing interest in iron palm will find new and useful information and concepts to add to your training or information base.

Regards,
Josh

[Dingo983]

If it's as good as your jow, I'll have to get a copy.

[ginosifu]

You know I'll buy a copy... and good luck with it!

ginosifu

[Yum Cha]

With respect, you talk about the Pathology, long term effects and the like. Do you have science to back this up, or do you have the traditional 'explanations?'

My initial impression is that this is a modern 'translation' of the traditional training effects, using western science and pathology? In addition to the training and meds?

[PlumDragon]

Thanks for the positive remarks, guys!

Sifu Gino, I apologize I cannot offer any additional special discount or I would have many people emailing saying, "Me too me too". However, please feel free to contact me through emai or PM and we can discuss some options.

Yum Cha, the "pathology" refers to a TCM 5-element analysis of the organ meridians that are stressed through this type of training. We didnt do any long-term scientific studies, although there is a big chunk of material near the end that uses conclusions from sports science for program design and modification that Ive included from my time as a professional personal trainer under ACE.

But the 5-element part is the result of time with a friend of mine who is a DOM who prefers 5-element theory. This part of the book may provoke some discussion as there are varying views on 5-element theory. However, this only makes up a small part of the book and there are some key points aside from the details that anyone can take from the 5-element discussion that makes the proceeding chapters more worthwhile.

Ultimately, the "pathology" as we call it is only 5-10 pages of a 100+ page book; the book goes on to other things that I feel are as or more important. The "pathology" just happened to be the initial idea that spurred writing for the book; "Pathology of iron palm" is just a catchy title. ;)

By the way, Happy Thanksgiving!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not to be an ass but using a scientific name implies scientific foundation.
Do you mention Wolf's Law for example?
Look, when you decide to put up a book on ANYTHING and give the impression that the book is based on science ( which you do when using a term like "pathology") then it falls on the author to back up his/her assertion with science.
Just saying.

[PlumDragon]

Thats fine, I appreciate your view, Sanjuro. If there was a better word to use, I would have used it, its just meant as a catch-phrase. "The Disharmony of Iron Palm" just doesnt make sense to people. But rest assured, we will have a disclaimer in the book about the matter and because of discussion here Im going to add one to the description on the website as well, so people are aware.

Like I said above, its just where the idea of the book came from and actually makes up a relatively small slice of the book.

However, the goal is to appease the masses, and we dont want to hurt anyones feelers, so Im going to discuss it with some contacts and consider replacing the word, as its actually an easy thing to change prior to actually having the book printed, which wont happen still for another couple weeks.

Yes, I do mention Wolffs law, which has 2 f's, BTW.

Maybe the saying shoudl go, "Dont judge a book by its title". ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like to address certain "exotic kungs" with the view of an "outside looking in".
It is very hard for us to have a critical eye on the things we hold dear, we are naturally bias because of the all time, blood and tears we have invested.
Yo get an outsider critical view is crucial for our development as MA and the evolution of the systems we hold dear.
That is how I viewed your post on IP.
In THAT light, it made my comment so that you could see what an "outsider" may think.
Personally I think a book on the realities of IP ( and by realities I mean what is PROVEN and CAN be proven) is far overdue.
You book seems to want to be that, but from the looks of the chapters index, it isn't.
I have no issues with noting what the ancient believed in regards to IP and Chi, 5 elements, jing retention and so forth, I just think that things of that nature that can't be proven should be kept to a minimum and used as anecdotes and that the actual proven physical charateristics and principles should be explored.

[PlumDragon]

Sanjuro, I appreciate the outside perspective. Ultimately, feedback is what I want, I dont have any paradigms on the matter and I dont get insulted when people provide commentary in that capacity.

However, the 5-element part (which, again, is only a small part of things) is not a rehashed look on anything and the book overall is not a traditional re-investigation of iron palm--I dont know anyone or anywhere that has done some of the things inside. Its not that is "secret", its just not usually a focus. I dont talk about Qi, Jing, etc almost at all, and the qigong purists will probably not like what I have to say in the section on qigong. The book is what it is, and it covers things from sports science, materials science, and other topics that arent usual "traditional" stuff.

Of course, there is the obligtory sections on iron palm jow and dit da wan and whatever...But to me, this book covers alot of topics on iron palm that are not traditionally covered. And that is the niche its meant for...So enjoy it or not... :cool:

[David Jamieson]

The study of the disease that is Iron palm? :p

Iron palm is a useful course of study. The method is fairly simple, but requires patience and fortitude.

Using the term pathology I think is a little misleading, especially in context to 5 phases theory, which as a theory is really suffering right now because it is viewed by most of the world as quaint and antiquated and not reflective of truths.

There is NO science in 5 elements theory. It's a guess with a lot of writing and musing about it but no actual tests, repeatable results based on blind tests and control groups etc etc.

It's interesting. like a Ouija board is interesting or pagan rituals from 1000 years ago, but I would avoid it entirely when talking about slow and progressive conditioning.

Slow and progressive conditioning and buildup CAN be explained with science and a method can be derived from said explanation.

Tying to 5 elements is only going to bring convolution it all and give people a weird idea about what the simple practice of Iron palm is.

It's not mystical or secret or super powers. It's fetch wood and carry water.

I guess it's safe to assume that 5 elements theory gets my hackles up and it does so because of it's many epic failures at resolving or explaining things that are easily and almost in an elementary (no pun intended) way shown by other methods of attribute recognition, prognosis or diagnosis.

A instruction of method is good, but making claims to science of it through 5 elements theory? I am not sure I am confident in the material.

[ginosifu]

Plum dragon
Just kidding about the discount. I know there is a lot of you who want to scrutinize kung fu people that put info for the masses. To use the words "the science of iron Palm" or the "Pathology" can be mis leading to some. However information inside this book is just what it is; Information about Iron Palm. Instead of scrutinizing it.... buy it, read it, then give a review. You can only be enlightened by the information inside whether your perception of the information is good or bad.

ginosifu

[IronWeasel]

Title suggestion:

How about Physiology of Iron Palm?

[David Jamieson]

Plum dragon
Just kidding about the discount. I know there is a lot of you who want to scrutinize kung fu people that put info for the masses. To use the words "the science of iron Palm" or the "Pathology" can be mis leading to some. However information inside this book is just what it is; Information about Iron Palm. Instead of scrutinizing it.... buy it, read it, then give a review. You can only be enlightened by the information inside whether your perception of the information is good or bad.

ginosifu

perhaps, but why reinvent the wheel?

[Yum Cha]

Yea, I don't think there are any issues with the content, not even qualified to comment, but when it comes to the marketing, the basic issue is creating a perception in the buyer that they will receive certain information, and then not fulfilling the promise.

Though the information may be A grade, it is the unfulfilled 'commercial' promise that will be remembered, because you have targeted a different market with you pitch than your content.

It sounds like you have taken a fresh and practical perspective to IP training, and included good solid meds and exercises. In a manner, De-mystifying Iron Palm. It sounds like a Complete Guide to Iron Palm Training and Conditioning that includes Traditional 5 Element Theory.

[ginosifu]

perhaps, but why reinvent the wheel?

Normally this would apply to beginners in IP learning about it and it's basic concepts.

For advanced practioners it's like going back to those beginners forms over and over again. Sometimes you pull some gems outta those old forms you have not played in along time.

Another way to at it is if I pick up a book I have not read in a while, it seems I pull ideas and thoughts from it that i did not get before.

I have studied MA for over 20 years and have the chance to study under several teachers. Each person had their own perception of tactics and training habits. I think this type of training gives me insight into MA that people with only one point of view may not have. Everytime I get a chance I get another persons point of view (read their book, look at their video etc etc.).

David,
Yes some material is going to be redundant. Also there are things that don't change no matter how many points of view. I just can't resist the chance to learn something new.

ginosifu

[mickey]

Greetings,

PlumDragon,

I went to visit your site out of interest. I lost interest when you have lead shot listed as potential filler for an iron palm bag. That really shouldn't be encouraged at any training level. But your listing it justifies the use of the word "pathology" in the title of your book.

mickey

[IronWeasel]

Greetings,

PlumDragon,

I went to visit your site out of interest. I lost interest when you have lead shot listed as potential filler for an iron palm bag. That really shouldn't be encouraged at any training level. But your listing it justifies the use of the word "pathology" in the title of your book.

mickey



There's nothing wrong with using lead shot. As long as your bag is lined.

It's a harder striking surface, so it's best to use it later in traning, rather than sooner.

[YouKnowWho]

lead shot

I won't recommend "lead shot" either. The BB gun BB - steal ball is much better.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There's nothing wrong with using lead shot. As long as your bag is lined.

It's a harder striking surface, so it's best to use it later in traning, rather than sooner.

Indeed.
Each of the many mediums that CAN be used has its pros and cons:
Sand, Steel BB's, Lead BB's.
You just have to minimize or eliminate the cons to reap the advantages of the Pro's.

[PlumDragon]

I spent the last day discussing the title with several friends in medicine and publishing during Thanksgiving "calls". While I am confident people who fully read the introduction of the book would understand why "Pathology of Iron Palm" was chosen, I have weighed all opinions and factors and decided to make a last minute title change to more accurately reflect overall content of the book. It was decided to change it to "Excursions in Iron Palm" and the pathology sections within remain intact.

I appreciate everyones feedback on the matter and feel the book is now better because of it, even if in a somewhat trivial manner. The goal ultimately is to sell the book, and I dont want people turned off simply by a title. So its done. The book will still ship as planned, prior to Christmas. A big thanks to those who have already purchased it.


Mickey,
There are people out there who use lead shot, so we offer filling data for our bags, which are lined with vinyl. We dont fill bags. I never recommend using lead shot due to toxicity and actually, in the book we recommend steel shot as the medium of choice due to its combination of high density and high brinell hardness factor. We list densities and brinell hardnesses for a large number of materials (this data by itself, compiled during my time as a missiles engineer, si worth the cost of the book) and discuss why steel is favorable based on those physical properties...I hope that clears it up...

[EarthDragon]

um about the shot discussion.... I was given pigiron pellets by my teacher to use.
we use a coldren and a wok , not a bag however I would not recomentd lead even with a liner. after many thousands of times hitting it can slit or tear without noticing it.

although round pig iron shot is hard to find it is best for this applicaion.

If you are living near a steel plant it can be found all over the place on the ground no need to purchase it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have used steel and lead, have used lead exclusivley for that last 5 years.
Because I of the many issues with Lead I was concerned and voiced my concern to my family doctor.
Even though my bag is very well lined and sealed, one can never be too safe.
So, he suggested a yearly test of lead levels when I do my yearly physical.
As of the last one, there is no difference at all.
BUT I say this to anyone, if you don't want to use lead Don't.
Again there are pros to lead of course but in the end, it all does the same thing.

[mickey]

PlumDragon,

While you may not recommend it, just listing it as a possible filler for your iron palm bag is a tacit recommendation and is not a good thing for someone who is not familiar with iron palm. By simply listing it you are giving the impression that it can be used and be used safely. Yes, there are practitioners out there who use lead. But from a health and an even healthier business perspective, I would suggest not listing it at all or that you use an asterisk followed by a detail of the risks when using such a medium.


Added Scenario: A person visiting your site who happens to be interested in iron palm training and sees lead shot listed as a possible filler. Well, guess what? He knows of a place where he can get it. He just has to get a bag (which may not be the one you offer) and some of your jow. I will let you fill in the rest....


mickey

[IronWeasel]

PlumDragon,

While you may not recommend it, just listing it as a possible filler for your iron palm bag is a tacit recommendation and is not a good thing for someone who is not familiar with iron palm. By simply listing it you are giving the impression that it can be used and be used safely. Yes, there are practitioners out there who use lead. But from a health and an even healthier business perspective, I would suggest not listing it at all or that you use an asterisk followed by a detail of the risks when using such a medium.


Added Scenario: A person visiting your site who happens to be interested in iron palm training and sees lead shot listed as a possible filler. Well, guess what? He knows of a place where he can get it. He just has to get a bag (which may not be the one you offer) and some of your jow. I will let you fill in the rest....


mickey


I'll let Darwin fill in the rest...:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'll let Darwin fill in the rest...:)

Indeed,
Chicoine's "IP Lineage" guys like you and AkronViper use lead right?

[IronFist]

I was about to say, Wolff's Law has 2 F's. But you beat me to it :)

[mooyingmantis]

Peeps,
I think you are being very critical of Josh and his book. He is the author. He acquiesced on the title. Let's leave the content alone. Buy it or don't. It's really that simple.
By Josh posting the table of contents, it should make it easy enough to judge whether you are interested in the subject matter or not.

[IronWeasel]

Indeed,
Chicoine's "IP Lineage" guys like you and AkronViper use lead right?


I'm only two years into IP training, so I still use steel shot.

Some have moved up to lead shot, but that isn't recommended until a few years into the training. I've hit a lead bag just to see what the difference is. It doesn't 'give' nearly as much as a bag of #6 steel shot.

Lead (poisoning) doesn't affect adults as acutely as it does children, so the risk is minimal unless your bag is unlined (IP trainee should be informed enough to use a lined bag with any filler), or if it is just threadbare and dilapidated...then just replace the thing.

Keep your small children away from paint chips and lead filled bags, and all will be fine. People on here are overreacting to the health risk of a lead shot filled bag.

[IronWeasel]

Peeps,
I think you are being very critical of Josh and his book. He is the author. He acquiesced on the title. Let's leave the content alone. Buy it or don't. It's really that simple.
By Josh posting the table of contents, it should make it easy enough to judge whether you are interested in the subject matter or not.


No one has been overly critical. Keep the comments rolling, it makes for good conversation and debate. Most IP writings are just rehash drivel...this book actually sounds interesting.

More commentary please. :)

[EarthDragon]

iron weasel

More commentary please.

do not use lead shot. use pig iron only.... bags can form tiny tears and slight openings where the lead dust and particals can leek out, dont take the risk, plus iron does not give at all compared to lead and steel

[IronWeasel]

iron weasel


do not use lead shot. use pig iron only.... bags can form tiny tears and slight openings where the lead dust and particals can leek out, dont take the risk, plus iron does not give at all compared to lead and steel



Well, initially, you want some 'give' with each strike.
After a few years when you're ready for a more solid strike with less give, switch to lead.

Lead in the bag will not kill you. Get a new bag every year if you're worried.

There's more 'poisonous' ingredients in the jow. Lead in the bag won't hurt you.



And don't run with scissors.

[EarthDragon]

Well, initially, you want some 'give' with each strike.
After a few years when you're ready for a more solid strike with less give, switch to lead.
initially do you mean when you start ip training or just bag work ? we start with beans, then snad work up form there but differnt teachers do different things, was curious how you started

Lead in the bag will not kill you. Get a new bag every year if you're worried.
yeahh but its toxic none the less. I perfer Iron but its hard to come by and wouldf rather not have to change the bag every year.
I used to slap a flat smooth stone everyday for years and after many years it has an indentation where my hand lays... same witha bag you get attached.... new bags make me feel like ai started over. LOL

There's more 'poisonous' ingredients in the jow. Lead in the bag won't hurt you.
if ingested perhaps, like lion coin but topically Jow is not poisonous
, unless you have open wound or something the like.


And don't run with scissors. jogging with nail clippers is alowed though right?

[IronWeasel]

initially do you mean when you start ip training or just bag work ? we start with beans, then snad work up form there but differnt teachers do different things, was curious how you started

Beans and sand will really only toughen up your skin by creating callouses. They won't do too much to crate bone density. My hands are a little calloused anyway, so I don't try to roughen them up any more, but someone who has a delicate career or soft hands may benefit from the mung beans, etc.

We begin with #6 steel shot in a lined bag. The filler is meant to compress slightly with each strike, to disperse some of the kinetic energy. Our strikes are slow and soft: simply let the hand fall with gravity from about eyebrow height. The risk of damage to the hand is greater in the beginning due to the 'new' inflammation and swelling to the area. Slow and easy, especially in the beginning.

People who strike the bag hard, or use a swinging/hanging bag (basically the bag is striking YOU...therefore a harder hit) are asking for disfigurement. The bone is stredded enough to stimulate osteon growth from light drops onto the bag. Anything more is simply injury.




yeahh but its toxic none the less. I perfer Iron but its hard to come by and wouldf rather not have to change the bag every year.

It's VERY toxic to children, that's what the hype is about. Adults come into contact with environmental lead all the time. Fishermen handle lead sinkers...etc. You really need a LOT of lead to harm an adult. Most lead in adults is bound in bone and therfore not circulatine, therefore not toxic. The risk is non existant to the educated person.




I used to slap a flat smooth stone everyday for years and after many years it has an indentation where my hand lays... same witha bag you get attached.... new bags make me feel like ai started over. LOL

That is even harder than the lead. Less give, more chance of injury in the beginning. I wouldn't strike a SOLID surface with any regularity unless I had worked my way through some more malleable material.





if ingested perhaps, like lion coin but topically Jow is not poisonous
, unless you have open wound or something the like.


You're right about that. Open wound + IP medicine = fire! :eek:






. jogging with nail clippers is alowed though right?

But they poke me in the fruits!

[PlumDragon]

The "pigiron" as its being called is just iron taconite ore formed into balls. Its not hard to get and its not actually that expensive either. I used to get it for people who wanted it but its too much of a hassle--its by far the messiest striking medium of all.

While iron is a fairly hard material, the iron pellets are actually quite brittle and breakdown rather easily. Some people use iron shot in a bag but dust gets through much easier than other types of materials and it can be bad for your lungs. Ive spent a good deal of time hitting it directly for the experience and have to wear a mask to keep it out of my lungs. To be honest, I actually really enjoy hitting iron directly; it conditions the hand in an entirely different way due to point-contact...but the crap is incredibly messy, and the dust is *horrible* and I would never ever recommend it to anyone.

Densities and hardesses for iron are also given in the book. And when you look at the info, its clear to see that (given mediums packed in a canvas bag) steel stresses the hand more than iron.

Its also worth pointing out though that your ability to produce power has little to do with what type of medium you strike during your session. Power production is power production and conditioning is conditioning--you could hit tungsten shot (which is also discussed in the book) for 10 years, but that doesnt mean you can produce a lot of power. It just means your hand can withstand a serious impact! ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

In a nutshell, if YOU have issues with lead, don't use it, there are other viable material you can use.
As for our critique of Josh's book, it really is nothing of the sort, we just want Josh to put out the best possible book he can and are giving him some friendly advice as "outsiders".
I think Josh knows we have only his best at heart.
Plumboy (;) ) is a highly respected member of our online community and if we didn't care about him we'd won't even bother commenting.

[PlumDragon]

The "Excursions in Iron Palm" book is now in print!! We have copies on our way to us now and it looks like anyone who has pre-ordered (or does so by Friday) should receive the book by Chirstmas, at which point pre-order will end.

Thanks to everyone who has ordered the book and/or provided feedback on it. Your support is fueling our next big project! ;)