How do you defend aginst a front shove

[ginosifu]

How does your system defend against the dreaded "Double Handed Front Shove"? You know that drunk guy that thinks you spilled beer and is up in your face. Then, when he gets close enough both of his hands shove forward slamming your chest back.

I am going to try and put together a youtube video together explaining this hopefully tommorrow. I am going to get a couple of students and film a bit of our self defense against the shove.

what's your opinon?

ginosifu

[David Jamieson]

deflect, turn the waist, push the side gate.

[goju]

punch him in the face as hes reaching at you to shove

[hskwarrior]

well, the way we defend against that double handed push is to take a step back with one foot (like stepping back into a Tip Toe or Cat Stance) to avoid the "PUSH" while the right hand comes up under one of his arms while the left one comes over the top of his other arm. One hand presses down and out while the other rises up and out. This causes the other guys arms open wide while his torso pushes forward. After that we can either knee him, or front snap kick, or whatever. it's up to you at that moment of time.

[Shaolin]

I don't drink, therefore I don't go to bars, therefore I don't get shoved by drunk people. Probably not the answer you were looking for, but the easiest and most effective way to avoid a fight is to avoid a fight.

[goju]

the two handed shove is common in street fights even when youre attacker isnt a drunk:D

usually both parties shove each other hoping one will back down from it turning into a full on altercation

[hskwarrior]

Out here in the SF bay area, we don't push back. one someone has decided to put his hands on you "IT's ON!" that's when the blows start flying.

[hskwarrior]

OR! you can try whats in this next video.....

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/53d827d5af

[xcakid]

I would fall down. Stand back up, drop my pants and underwear. Start crying. Throw my arms open and ask for a hug.

This tends to get people walking away from you and diffuses and adversarial situation.

[IronWeasel]

I would fall down. Stand back up, drop my pants and underwear. Start crying. Throw my arms open and ask for a hug.

.



Around here we just call that 'Thursday night'.

[uki]

plant a forehead in their nose... crack sinus cavity. :D

[Yum Cha]

Basic principle is that if his hands are on you, there's nothing protecting his face, or anything else.

You can fight the hands, or you can fight the 'man'. Since you're going to have to fight the man eventually, might as well get on with it promptly.

@uki - howyagoin'er matey?

[YouKnowWho]

Your opponent's pushing arms is like the "clinch" situation. He gives you some "free" contact points if you know how to take advantage on it.

[uki]

@uki - howyagoin'er matey?most excellent as usual... got puter back with wireless... severed the connection at home to spare time - now i just roam the wee morning hours in search of unsecured wifi. :)

[bawang]

I don't drink, therefore I don't go to bars.
lol ur lsoer

[ginosifu]

Thanks everyone. Hopefully tommorrow I'll have some vids dending on how lazy my students are and if they will even wake up.

ginosifu

[Drake]

Drunk guys moves to shove me, I just move aside and watch him fall on his face.
Non-drunk guy who wants to hurt me? Same as someone else mentioned here with the waist turn, only I grab the back collar, step in for the trip, and face slam the dumb ******* into the ground with his own fool momentum. Stomp stomp kick, rinse and repeat until threat is neutralized.

Yeah, there's a few things they can do to get away from that, though they normally don't. However, they still have the forward momentum, and they are stuck with that. Ues according to how they react.

[Lucas]

can be tricky depending on: suprise, space, size, reaction time, agility, how drunk you are :p

im of the mind that if you 'know' something is coming, pre-emptive attack, thats just what i believe (uki's headbutt is perfect lol). but if you get suprised, reaction time, agility and footwork will save you from falling down. if you think its coming but dont attack first, but can be prepared by even a fraction of a second, you 'might' be able to dissipate the force if you move back putting him off balance, or avoid the shove all together, then you can counter with strikes or grappling. move inside with strikes, sweep/throw, or clinch.

or grab a bar stool and yell 'bar fight' and try to start a rumble till the bouncers own both of you.

[Drake]

Not a fan of the headbutt. Could accidentally kill the guy if you hit them hard enough.

That and a last second shift on the part of either of you, and you end up knocking yourself out.

[taai gihk yahn]

most excellent as usual... got puter back with wireless... severed the connection at home to spare time - now i just roam the wee morning hours in search of unsecured wifi. :)

welcome back; place wasn't the same w/out you - people started taking themselves waaaay to seriously...

[Shaolin]

lol ur lsoer

Maybe so, but I can spell and use proper grammar.

[EarthDragon]

when pushed or pulled always go with the direction of thier force, to try to go against it is foolish.
when pushed simply use your wrists to make inward circles and rediirect thier force onward/past you and outward/away form you. After this you can choose to or not to counter.

same thing with a single handed push, only a slight turn of the waist is needed with a slight parry is needed.

[SJGuy]

Side step, if they're slow and sloppy. If the push lands, return fire with an uppercut or rising hammer fist, depending on the distance.

[EarthDragon]

If the push lands, return fire with an uppercut or rising hammer fist, depending on the distance.

U sould never allow the push/shove to land.... people can shove pretty hard and with some force, you cannot react to counter quick enough once contact is made...jus sayin

[Lucas]

its always good to explore all the options imo, nothing is perfect and no one can avoid all attacks. sure its best to avoid a fight, but sometimes you cant. its best to avoid an attack, but sometimes you cant so you have to block/parry/recover/counter.

[EarthDragon]

lucas,
can you explian
block/parry/recover/counter. do you mean choose one of these methods or in sequence, becuse you cannot block then parry its either or

[Frost]

control the distance at all costs, try to use verbal distractions to calm him down and occupy his mind, keep your hands up to help control the distance and if he crosses that distance to push you hit him hard, hit him often and keep hitting him until he stops moving :)

Alternatively look up geoff thompsons the fence for a much better and detailed analysis....which ultimatly says the same thing :)

[MightyB]

if you don't want to hurt them 'cuz it's a drunk friend or relative...

if he's shoving with his palms finger tips up, trap both of his palms flat against your chest, step one foot back and bend towards your opponent causing him to hyperextend at his wrists. He will have to yield his position and go with your lock to avoid breaking his wrists. Be careful with this technique.

[David Jamieson]

brace, and with the cup of your hand cup his elbows and press up. His forward momentum will stop.

[Merryprankster]

Post his arms up, or swim inside. Clinch/shoot, lift, drop on skull.

[EarthDragon]

mightyB

if he's shoving with his palms finger tips up, trap both of his palms flat against your chest, step one foot back and bend towards your opponent causing him to hyperextend at his wrists. He will have to yield his position and go with your lock to avoid breaking his wrists. Be careful with this technique.

this kinda works and I say kinda cuz there lots of factors, however but it could never ever break the wrists. ,might possibly get him to drop to one knee

[ginosifu]

Sorry I haven't been here in my thread. My students never showed up yesturday and then I got hung up doing some belt (sash) tests. Everyones input has been great.

I am going to attemp to descibe our tactics until I can get some vids up.

First and most important is distancing. Keep what I call neutral distance (neutral distance is the distance when both people can not reach each other without taking a step, usually 3'-4') If this is not possible then tactics may change depending on how close they are.

Second is turn your body at a slight angle with one leg in the front. (I like my left leg in the front, so our technique will reflect that). Both hands up in a defensive posture near your shoulders. This will keep your hands ready but are not really provocative (A boxers or MA On Guard Stance seems to provocative).

Tactic #1
The person is at Neutral distance and launches his shove. Your left foot side steps to your left. Your left hand pak sao or blocks their incoming right hand. Simaltaneously your right hand slaps their inner thigh of their right leg and continues up in a circle around to back hand the orbit of their right eye socket and continues downward. Your left hand swings up and around to hit them in the back of the head (medula area) and drops straight downward (lower spine area). The right hand comes up to the throat and the left hand slaps the spine, driving it inward. Slaps to the lower back area usually cause the body to arch backwards (that's just what we want). Step forward with your right leg behind his legs and use your right hand on his neck to drive him downward. Now your left hand wraps around his right arm as he goes down and put your radius bone up on his ulner nerve and apply pressure upward. Same time take your left knee on put it on his head near YI FENG Accupunture point (right behind his ear) and place all of your body weight on his head. This is a submission hold until someone comes to break it up...

Tactic #2 The person has closed the distance and is up your face and lauches his shove. Shuffle backwards (if possible) and both of your arms dissolve upwards (block upwards). Your left hand grabs onto their right arm near the elbow and twist under and inward. Your right hand slaps their left cheek and drives their face backwards and to your left a bit (making them look away from you). Normally when you touch someones face one of their free hands will come to try and block our grab you. If his left hand comes to touch your right hand (which is still pushing his face) release your left and bring it under your right to grab his left hand (Trapping technique). Pull his left arm out straight and release his face and swing your right hand around and lay it on his left tricept (ulner nerve area). Step your left leg backwards and take him down with armbar takedown. Once he is on the ground take your right knee and layit on his tricept and put all of your body weight on it until someone comes to break it up.

These tactics are for that guy who thinks you spilled his beer or looked at his wife or took his parking spot etc etc... This is not a life or death situation so I would not use any killing techniques. Just submission.

Hopefully when I put the vids up it will explain better than me.

ginosifu

[EarthDragon]

gino sifu

If I may the techniques though thourough seem a bit complicated for just someone pushing you. Is this considering they are really drunk with no fighting expereience? obviously when people push ro shove, it shows lack of fighting skills cuz obviously you never place your hands on somebody, but KISS is always what really works in the street for me or to what I teach for the pratical self defence side of it. The more things you gotta focus on the more can go wrong in a split second.



This is not a life or death situation so I would not use any killing techniques. Just submission.

LOL thats a good thing for them right?....... however can you explain what you mean by killing techniques? besides obviously choking stabbing or shooting someone?

[Syn7]

Post his arms up, or swim inside. Clinch/shoot, lift, drop on skull.

always with the good advice... its like youve actually done this before... ;)

[Frost]

always with the good advice... its like youve actually done this before... ;)

heres a world class grappler...its not like he is going to punch the guy or anything :o)

[Syn7]

heres a world class grappler...its not like he is going to punch the guy or anything :o)

yeah but that would just be uncivilized man... dumptruck his ass, classy sh!t man....

[ginosifu]

EarthDragon:
Never underestimate the opponent. All men can brawl / scrap / fight to some extent. I have been in these situations and also work with local police on these type of situations and how they can use them for police tactics. Whether in bar or a parking lot or a restuarant, a guy shoving you may end up getting on top and pounding the carp outta you.

Killing: the only way I can justify killing is in a situation where there 3 or 4 thugs attacking me. If I feel my life is in peril I will kill (or attempt to kill) the person touching me so I can go to fight the other 2 or 3 thugs.

An example would be from the first tactic #1. When my right hand backhands hits his orbit and my left slaps the medula, my right hand would immediately go to his chin and push it away from me and my left will pull the back of his head toward me snapping his his neck. Now if that has not incapacited him then I will slide behind him (still holding his head) and lower him down to the ground. As I am sitting him down I lean my chest forward and downward onto his head and with a Fa Jing (explosive or fast snapping motion) snap his his neck downward onto his chest, breaking it instanly.

ginosifu

[MightyB]

The front shove isn't too much of a concern because it's designed to intimidate and most guys don't know how to shove with concussive force (like the double palm strike in the Jing Wu form tu jin spelling phonetically). So most people are just shoving you, so deal with it with what you think is appropriate. I'm a little against using too much force, so I'd go with Chin Na techniques like deflect and move to your left on the outside of his arms on his initial push, grasp his right wrist with your right hand and pull to extend his arm while simultaneosly elbowing his face with your left elbow (doesn't have to be hard, just enough to get him to give you his right arm) and then apply an armpit hold and take it all the way to the ground. You can hold this lock all day if you have to.

[EarthDragon]

sny7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merryprankster
Post his arms up, or swim inside. Clinch/shoot, lift, drop on skull.

always with the good advice... its like youve actually done this before...

this is horrible advice ... have you guys been in a street altercation? you never voluntatrily go to the ground espeically from a simple push, give me a break.

I take some guys parking space , I'm out with my wife and going to a diner or a club , Im dressed nice with nice shoes and nice shirt on and on the way in a drunk guy picks a fight with me and pushes me and you suggest grappling? you guys cannot be serious. first anyone who pushes you does not know how to fight, so therereally no threat, he can be talked out of being beat up, or you redirect his push and warn him. by suggesting you go to the dirty ground and fight at the curb or in the gutter shows you are not street smart and have never been to NY LOL

ginosifu


An example would be from the first tactic #1. When my right hand backhands hits his orbit and my left slaps the medula, my right hand would immediately go to his chin and push it away from me and my left will pull the back of his head toward me snapping his his neck. Now if that has not incapacited him then I will slide behind him (still holding his head) and lower him down to the ground. As I am sitting him down I lean my chest forward and downward onto his head and with a Fa Jing (explosive or fast snapping motion) snap his his neck downward onto his chest, breaking it instanly.

no disrepsect here to you brother, but it is impossible to break someones neck.
I am a bone settter and 30 year in kung fu and it requires minimal 900 LBS to even fracture or crack the cervical vertebrae. no human can ever generate that amount of force. sorry

[goju]

sny7


this is horrible advice ... have you guys been in a street altercation? you never voluntatrily go to the ground espeically from a simple push, give me a break.

I take some guys parking space , I'm out with my wife and going to a diner or a club , Im dressed nice with nice shoes and nice shirt on and on the way in a drunk guy picks a fight with me and pushes me and you suggest grappling? you guys cannot be serious. first anyone who pushes you does not know how to fight, so therereally no threat, he can be talked out of being beat up, or you redirect his push and warn him. by suggesting you go to the dirty ground and fight at the curb or in the gutter shows you are not street smart and have never been to NY LOL



that was far from horrible advice he recomended swimming through the arms to close the gap and to grab the guy to lift him and slam him.He didnt say go to the ground

having actually done exactly what merry prankster advised in street fight when i was pushed i can say that it works 100 percent. and it didnt result in going to the ground it resulted in him being on the floor with me standing over him

[uki]

welcome back; place wasn't the same w/out you - people started taking themselves waaaay to seriously...thanks, though i must admit my visits will be sparodic in nature. people can take themselves as serious as the fool in them allows. ;)

the front shove, tiger push, blah, bling, blah... excellent attack when intention is of a higher standard - speeding freight trains and streaking comets cannot be readily blocked by say, er... a simple cranes wing, yet the the folded cranes wing can be utilized to trap the two hands/arms thus opening the nether regions to dragons kicking over the mountains. :)

[ginosifu]

EarthDragon
No problem. When I get my vid up, I will demonstrate it. Fa Jing is the only way to create the amount of force you are talking about. If afterwards you still aren't impressed that's ok too because we don't want to kill people anyway.

ginosifu

[EarthDragon]

goju
my mistake I read it wrong, slaming is ok in my book. I thought he said clinch/shoot list and take down. not throw down.... if you remain standing its all good.

ginosifu
I am well aware of jing power its usefullness and its purpose. However using jing to punch or kick is one thing ie using your body to connect the linkes of the body, twisting and upheaving of the fu zong shin, to snap outward to the extremities, however this does not constitute strength enoufgh to create 900 lbs of force. if so you would be the only human in history to acomplish this. I have trained with 2 very high level masters one in gung fu the other in medical qigong, they both can produce incrediable jing on thei own way however this is not its purpose. again as a shifu I am being respectful but with jing would be hard to break the even ulna or radius, never the spine cant be done.

please dont post a video of you trying.. it would be hard to find volunteers LOL

[ginosifu]

EarthDragon;
I myself can only go by what my sifu has told me because I have never snapped anyones neck. Although theoretical the way I do it seems plausable, however I am not bone specialist. AND I would have never used Fa Jing on my staudent. I would lose all that tuition money !

ginosifu

ps. I trust you when say It can't be done...

[Syn7]

this is horrible advice ... have you guys been in a street altercation? you never voluntatrily go to the ground espeically from a simple push, give me a break.


just coz you dump somebody on their head, doesnt mean you have to go to the ground... you have wrestled before right??? why does everyone always assume its ground fighting like bjj... esspecially greco...

i have used grappling in street fights oh so many times... in prison it was esspecially handy, everyone wanted to trade shots to the face, nobody saw me comming, nobody... MMA wasnt as popular back then, nobody had an answer... i was 155lbs chumping steroid monkeys with retard strength but very little real martial skill... i fought a couple boxers too, one hurt me pretty good but i still won... the other two went down like a sack of potatoes... and no i didnt go down too... after their head hit the floor they got to feel me stomping their faces, not dryhumping them and waiting for some screw to wander on the range and break it up...

[Syn7]

EarthDragon;
I myself can only go by what my sifu has told me because I have never snapped anyones neck. Although theoretical the way I do it seems plausable, however I am not bone specialist. AND I would have never used Fa Jing on my staudent. I would lose all that tuition money !

ginosifu

ps. I trust you when say It can't be done...

yeah its alot harder said than done... if you have the powewr to do that, then you were prolly strong enough to just swat them outta your way like a fly anyways, so why pull their head off :D

like an adult could do it to a non resisting small child... biut another adult that is fighting back??? only on tv....

[Yum Cha]

A little reality check. It happens all the time, guys get thrown down and they die. They get punched once, fall down and die. Hit their head on something, king hit, whatever. It happens.

Other times, you see somebody get speared or slammed onto their head, say like in old school Rugby, and you can't imagine how they ever get up.

So, what's strong enough?

[Merryprankster]

A little reality check. It happens all the time, guys get thrown down and they die. They get punched once, fall down and die. Hit their head on something, king hit, whatever. It happens.

Other times, you see somebody get speared or slammed onto their head, say like in old school Rugby, and you can't imagine how they ever get up.

So, what's strong enough?

Yeah - I'm always amazed at how resilient and fragile we are.

Thanks for the kind words folks, but I'm not a world-class grappler. There are lots of people out there that I can't hang with. I'm pretty good for a guy with kids and a job. The world class ones - it is their job - and teaching takes a back seat to competition

[Syn7]

its crazy how some people fall out of planes without a chute and are fine, while another will trip over their shoelace and die...

but as far as breaking necks on purpose, you cant rely on something that may work if all the planets align and its ur birthday...

i'd like to hear TGY opinion on the whole head twisting thing... im sure you would hurt the guy even when it doesnt work... but i mean, there are better ways to hurt people;)

[ginosifu]

Sorry it took me a while to get these shove vids up. also sorry for the bad quality, I did not know the kids put their fingers on the lens.

Vid #1 when you have room to move:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnxnCqJ6Rmk

Vid #2 when they are too close and you can't side step:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU9qGBAkNE8

Vid #3 Break the neck !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj4D7BtOMzA

again sorry... the kids were crying... the baby was screaming..this is lesson for those of you thinking about having kids....DON'T

ginosifu

[MightyB]

I like that you went with Chin Na techniques because let's face it, you'll have to use restraint with most people you end up fighting.

You know that you're actually in perfect position to apply a RNC in the third video... you could use that instead of a neck break/neck crank.

[ginosifu]

I like that you went with Chin Na techniques because let's face it, you'll have to use restraint with most people you end up fighting.

You know that you're actually in perfect position to apply a RNC in the third video... you could use that instead of a neck break/neck crank.

I only posted that for a question someone asked me killing someone.

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

This one I did a while back for a woman's self defense course. It is for a front choke, however you can consider this choke almost the same as a front shove.

When over powered by a larger person, this will work for the shove as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oMGBwi4q4c

ginosifu

[Drake]

its crazy how some people fall out of planes without a chute and are fine, while another will trip over their shoelace and die...

but as far as breaking necks on purpose, you cant rely on something that may work if all the planets align and its ur birthday...

i'd like to hear TGY opinion on the whole head twisting thing... im sure you would hurt the guy even when it doesnt work... but i mean, there are better ways to hurt people;)

I remember a line from Men's Health, where a guy was saying how it's so strange that we can work out at the gym with heavy weights all day, and still throw out our backs trying to lift a 15lb chair.

[Syn7]

I remember a line from Men's Health, where a guy was saying how it's so strange that we can work out at the gym with heavy weights all day, and still throw out our backs trying to lift a 15lb chair.

life can be absurd... i remember a lady threw her baby off a really high suspension bridge into a canyon in my area... hit rocks, bounced around... scrapes, baby was fine... another couple jumped out a plane together and got tangled up... both lived, one broken bone between em.. landed on soft marshy ground...

on the other end, i know a guy who hit his head on the door jam, not even that hard, barely a mark he didnt complain at all... few days later he just dropped dead... so many examples... its not fair and its very ironic, but its life...




as for the neck thing, i do believe if somebody wqas that much bigger and stronger they could... like a small woman and a large man, like 280lbs 6'5 all muscle monkey man... but in no way shape or form do i feel its a viable move and i dont feel its worth practicing... as a crank, sure, but not as a break... you break a guys neck, it means its serious and if its that serious you dont take risks by trying sh!t like that... you get it done the fastest easiest way you know how... tried and tested stuff... leave the esoteric for the classroom for laughs and a bit of fun here and there...

[AdrianK]

This one I did a while back for a woman's self defense course. It is for a front choke, however you can consider this choke almost the same as a front shove.

When over powered by a larger person, this will work for the shove as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oMGBwi4q4c

ginosifu

I don't really know what kind of street altercations happen in Ohio, but the only time I've ever been shoved or seen anyone be shoved is when someone is close to your face. Certainly never seen someone try and shove from a few feet away like that.

That being said, what happens to that girl when her attacker can run faster than her? :rolleyes:

... Hence the reason why most womens self defense courses emphasize disabling an attacker before retreating.


Anyways, a two handed shove isn't usually the start of the fight, more of a physical way of saying "Don't mess with me", so it doesn't really require a defense to it. Even if you've been shoved back, you usually have time to stand your ground and try and defuse the situation. In our legal system, its not safe to assume that busting someone up for shoving you, won't be ruled as excessive force.

[ginosifu]

I don't really know what kind of street altercations happen in Ohio, but the only time I've ever been shoved or seen anyone be shoved is when someone is close to your face. Certainly never seen someone try and shove from a few feet away like that.

That being said, what happens to that girl when her attacker can run faster than her? :rolleyes:

... Hence the reason why most womens self defense courses emphasize disabling an attacker before retreating.


Anyways, a two handed shove isn't usually the start of the fight, more of a physical way of saying "Don't mess with me", so it doesn't really require a defense to it. Even if you've been shoved back, you usually have time to stand your ground and try and defuse the situation. In our legal system, its not safe to assume that busting someone up for shoving you, won't be ruled as excessive force.

AdrianK:
This was an example if you were prepared and had time to make a descision on whether to run or to stay and fight. This was one approach, I did not post the other approaches cause they did not flow with the front shove thread. I have many approaches and staying and fighting is definately one of them.

I don't know where you come from but here I teach Police, Prison Guards, Swat Teams and Woman's self defense as well. Some woman are big enough to tangle with a man to try and disable them. Some woman are just too small to grapple with a man (if they have a choice). If they have no choice, then they must deal with situation.

As far as the 2 handed shove... I have been in bar fights and seen first hand shoves that lead to grappling. Once a person touches you in a any way, the fight is on. Are you stupid enough to believe that someone will push or shove you and back down? You need to get a grip on reality or get into a couple of bar fights before you say something that's not correct.

ginosifu

[Yum Cha]

An alternative use, other than blustering bar room confrontations, is when someone already has you wrapped up, or basically has their arms on the outside of your arms.

I've relied on the two handed shove to break clinches and body locks, if they aren't absolutely locked in...

Also, to meet an attack....

This bar fight chest pushing stuff is basic fundamental self defense 101, a perinnial favorite with the "how to" crowd.

There are gazillions of techniques, but fundamentally, unless you are dead drunk dopey it shouldn't hurt you. So its a free shot that very clearly establishes you are defending yourself, so you f-ing defend yourself without hesitation. By pushing you, he has demonstrated his hesitation, are we on the same page yet? Don't matter what style, whatever, you beat it with superior heart and focus, because you are a trained Mother F-er, and he's an idiot.

Why worry about the attack, its benign unless delivered by a pro, or you get caught off guard and fall over something...

[AdrianK]

AdrianK:
This was an example if you were prepared and had time to make a descision on whether to run or to stay and fight. This was one approach, I did not post the other approaches cause they did not flow with the front shove thread. I have many approaches and staying and fighting is definately one of them.

You misunderstood what I was trying to say. I never implied you should stick around and fight it out, what I meant was that if you're going to try and escape, the most common methods involve disabling the attacker first (groin kick, eye gouge, etc.) so that you have a head start on escaping.



I don't know where you come from but here I teach Police, Prison Guards, Swat Teams and Woman's self defense as well.

Your point being... ? I wasn't doubting your credibility, I was critiquing your videos.



Some woman are big enough to tangle with a man to try and disable them. Some woman are just too small to grapple with a man (if they have a choice). If they have no choice, then they must deal with situation.

Disabling them has little to do with size. To put it better, you need to stun the assailant before trying to escape, otherwise there's a much greater risk of them tackling you from behind.



As far as the 2 handed shove... I have been in bar fights and seen first hand shoves that lead to grappling. Once a person touches you in a any way, the fight is on. Are you stupid enough to believe that someone will push or shove you and back down? You need to get a grip on reality or get into a couple of bar fights before you say something that's not correct.

Thats pretty funny you say that, I've never really seen anyone get shoved unless they're close to someones face.(and even then, neither person really wants to fight, they just don't want to look like they're backing down) Well, at least since elementry school. Oh wait, it all makes sense now, you spend a lot of time on playgrounds ginosifu? :D

[Drake]

If you break someone's neck during a fight, he better have had a chainsaw and said he was going to chop you up. If not, you are going to jail for a VERY long time.

[EarthDragon]

I reapeat, it takes 900 lbs to break someones cervical vertabrea and a human CANNOT generate this much force with thier arms. even if its a big guy littel girl as sny said, just cant happen unless your in hollywood then you can by twisting it quickly...

[uki]

a human CANNOT generate this much force with thier arms. i disagree. :p

[Syn7]

I reapeat, it takes 900 lbs to break someones cervical vertabrea and a human CANNOT generate this much force with thier arms. even if its a big guy littel girl as sny said, just cant happen unless your in hollywood then you can by twisting it quickly...

i wanna hear TGY's opinion on it... he'll dead it for me... as of this moment tho, i think ur wrong... ive seen dudes tear phonebooks in half, do crazy strong sh!t with grip and arm power... its hard for me to believe there arent some people that could twist a lil kids head off...

[Syn7]

also if you can trip on a shoelace and break your neck... and it does happen even tho its a freak occcurance.... why not with a lil help?

[mooyingmantis]

EarthDragon;
I myself can only go by what my sifu has told me because I have never snapped anyones neck. Although theoretical the way I do it seems plausable, however I am not bone specialist. AND I would have never used Fa Jing on my staudent. I would lose all that tuition money !

ginosifu

ps. I trust you when say It can't be done...

Whether one can generate 900 lbs of force (what scientific study did this come from?) or not, the technique you demonstrate can certainly injure the spinal cord. Breaking cervical vertebrae is not necessary to injure the spinal cord. So, I think it is certainly a valid technique.

Though against a front shove, a nonlethal technique, I would simply lift double hooks (tiao shuang gou) to deflect the opponent's force upward. A spontaneous response may be enough to let the attacker know he may have bit off more than he can chew and he may break off the engagement.

[EarthDragon]

UKI

i disagree.
why? and form what medical knowledge woudl you base this disagreement on?

Sny7,

i wanna hear TGY's opinion on it... he'll dead it for me... as of this moment tho, i think ur wrong... ive seen dudes tear phonebooks in half, do crazy strong sh!t with grip and arm power... its hard for me to believe there arent some people that could twist a lil kids head off...

are we talking about super human strength in 1 % of individuals? or teaching and learning a neck breaking technique to the masses?

also are you talking about a strong grown man twitsing a little kids neck? come on lets keep this realistic we only beat up lilttle girls...


also if you can trip on a shoelace and break your neck... and it does happen even tho its a freak occcurance.... why not with a lil help?
freak accidents cannot be in the same catagory as a neck breaking technique taught by a MA teacher

mooying

Whether one can generate 900 lbs of force (what scientific study did this come from?)

I learned bone setting and cranial sacrum therapy another name for chiropractor, in my OM studies. With this cours you learn joint manipulation, degrees of movement and motion, placments, alignment.
Along with this you learn trama, fractures, breakage, tendon tears and ligaments, facia etc etc. when you are talking about breaking the vertebrea you are dealing with fracturing the articular process and transvers process or the smal section of the pedicle or lamnia. Any area of this bone cannot just be twisted and break. You can also ask any chiropractor this is common knowledge in thsi field.


not, the technique you demonstrate can certainly injure the spinal cord. Breaking cervical vertebrae is not necessary to injure the spinal cord. So, I think it is certainly a valid technique.
I will agree you can damage the spinal cord if pinched, but agin this is super human strength to tiwst the neck in s uch a way that the body wont protect itself. sometiems the force of a car accident can cause swelling and inflamation whip lash, but I would say no one can creat the same force of a 30 mile an hour crash with thier bare hands..


Though against a front shove, a nonlethal technique, I would simply lift double hooks (tiao shuang gou) to deflect the opponent's force upward.

Richard can I ask why you dont redirect their arms downward? its a more natural movement for you and more effective then upwards......

[Merryprankster]

Richard can I ask why you dont redirect their arms downward? its a more natural movement for you and more effective then upwards......

I'll try to address this later, but in short, it depends on how they are pushing.

[SoCo KungFu]

LOL I like how its so casual here to be like you're just gonna up and go breakin' necks. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say no one has actually snapped someone's neck before. Amiright? Cervical vertebrae are small. That alone isn't much protection from rotational forces. However, there something like off the top of my head....like 22 muscles that contribute to the movement of the head/neck (rectus capitus muscles, splenius muscles, spinalis/semispinalis muscles, scalene groups, longissimus muscles, obliquus, iliocostalis group, sternocleidomastoid muscles..... That's just the neck and by extension the back. We aren't even talking about having to control the rest of their body in relation to positioning of their neck, keeping them from pulverizing you while you are trying to go hulk on their neck....

Really? REALLY? See this is why some of you guys get such a hard time and what KF used to bag about. This is the perfect example of a "too deadly" technique that absolutely none of you have actually used and probably have no way of even practicing. There's a 983.26 things you could be doing that will be more plausible, feasible, successful and ultimately get you in much much less trouble both practicing and implementing than this movie fu. In a front shove thread no less lol. "Hey Timmy, Billy is going to pretend to be a bully in the hallway pushing you against your locker. Show us neck snap defense #4..." Oh boy oh boy... :p

[Syn7]

?

Sny7,


are we talking about super human strength in 1 % of individuals? or teaching and learning a neck breaking technique to the masses?

also are you talking about a strong grown man twitsing a little kids neck? come on lets keep this realistic we only beat up lilttle girls...


freak accidents cannot be in the same catagory as a neck breaking technique taught by a MA teacher

i think maybe you need to read back a bit and get a handle on what i was actually talking about... a long time ago we all pretty much agreed its a dumb thing to practice and it will never work... we've been thru that... catch up, son... go back, re-read everything again... and if by then you still dunno what im saying, then just drop it.... its not a discussion you are capable of participating in...


im pretty sure most of the people in here who arent complete tcma fundamentalist weirdos agree that the whole neck breaking thing is just stupid... not once did i say i thought it was a good idea...

somebody said it wasnt possible... so i went into what i thought the possibilities were... and although i dont think one could pull this off in a fight i do think it can be done under ideal circcumstances... i just dont buy it, that the neck cant be broken like that...

[SoCo KungFu]

Richard can I ask why you dont redirect their arms downward? its a more natural movement for you and more effective then upwards......

Not directed at me but my line of thinking is:

Someone shoving you, your upper body goes back. That's just how it is, force applied on chect --> torso goes back. So what do you do? You step back to maintain balance. Right? So while directing down is ok against those punk ass little pushes that are from *****s trying to intimidate you, its not as good against a real forceful shove. Because you're torso goes back, your reach is lost and you're in a crappy position retreating. Direct up and now they're extended up and you have a window to counter. Direct down and they have a shot at grabbing your shirt or something and tying you up. Direct up and they have to recover their own arms before taking further action. Plus I like to clinch on my own terms not theirs. Your arms are lower than theirs, go in give a good shot to the breadbasket and dump truck their ass.

My real life scenario...about 10 years ago my car was broken down and I was stuck walking. Some douche attacked me and got it in his head he wanted to throw me into oncoming traffic. So he was shoving pretty hard. I didn't know jack about grappling at the time and tried to do the whole elbow down into his antecubital thing and lobbed some punched and stuff but he grabbed hold of my shirt. Luckily I was big enough to keep from going into the street. I eventually broke clinch and was able to get away. Knowing what I know now though, redirect up and drive into him and take it away from the street and do what I can do in a safer location (ie pick him up and drop him on his head), rough him up a bit then get a safe distance between us.

[SoCo KungFu]

also if you can trip on a shoelace and break your neck... and it does happen even tho its a freak occcurance.... why not with a lil help?

You hear stories about crazy stuff like this. But there's a difference. Things like this you're talking about a sudden abrupt application of force on a specific location on a person's neck in a situation where they likely weren't ready to receive that force (their muscles were relaxed and they had no time to counter the forces being that it was a blow on their landing). Where as these neck cranks we're talking about a situation where someone has the ability to perceive the threat, feel the application of force and in turn react with a counter force and/or reposition while countering/scrambling.

[Syn7]

You hear stories about crazy stuff like this. But there's a difference. Things like this you're talking about a sudden abrupt application of force on a specific location on a person's neck in a situation where they likely weren't ready to receive that force (their muscles were relaxed and they had no time to counter the forces being that it was a blow on their landing). Where as these neck cranks we're talking about a situation where someone has the ability to perceive the threat, feel the application of force and in turn react with a counter force and/or reposition while countering/scrambling.

no no i am not saying one can break a neck of another adult with a neck crank... awhile back somebody posted that it was impossible PERIOD... all im saying is that it is possible and can happen... given the right conditions i think one could litterally pull anothers head off given a certain frailty in one and the massiveness of another... just theoretical sh!t... not in a fight... although i do believe that some so called breaking techniques could still be useful as cranks... and if you pulled a neck muscle which would be reletively easy you could really set them back and limit their mobility... i saw a dude get right fukced up by a can opener... if yall know what that is.... its a type of crank... not even a bad ass one... and it put this cat out of commish for almost two years... and its still not healed properly... he's damaged for life... and there was nerve damage too... and this was in a sanctioned submission grappling match... refs judges and all... so imagine how it could be used on the street when the guy taps and you pull harder cause you want him done....

[SoCo KungFu]

no no i am not saying one can break a neck of another adult with a neck crank... awhile back somebody posted that it was impossible PERIOD... all im saying is that it is possible and can happen... given the right conditions i think one could litterally pull anothers head off given a certain frailty in one and the massiveness of another... just theoretical sh!t... not in a fight... although i do believe that some so called breaking techniques could still be useful as cranks... and if you pulled a neck muscle which would be reletively easy you could really set them back and limit their mobility... i saw a dude get right fukced up by a can opener... if yall know what that is.... its a type of crank... not even a bad ass one... and it put this cat out of commish for almost two years... and its still not healed properly... he's damaged for life... and there was nerve damage too... and this was in a sanctioned submission grappling match... refs judges and all... so imagine how it could be used on the street when the guy taps and you pull harder cause you want him done....

Yeah some cranks can hurt like a *****.

[ginosifu]

[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1064405]I will agree you can damage the spinal cord if pinched, but agin this is super human strength to tiwst the neck in s uch a way that the body wont protect itself. sometiems the force of a car accident can cause swelling and inflamation whip lash, but I would say no one can creat the same force of a 30 mile an hour crash with thier bare hands.QUOTE]

EarthDragon: I am sorry if you mis intrepted my posts that the break of the neck is a twist. It is NOT a neck twist, it is a snap of the neck downward while the head is twisted sideways and using the weight of my body on top of his head. Look Here at about :20 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj4D7BtOMzA

Also for everyone one out there.. No necks have been broken ever by me, nor do I wish this on anyone. Someone asked a question about If I had to kill to stay alive. An Example might be if apprached by several oppnents at the same time, and ALL had the intent to kill me. If there was no where to run I might try killing people as quickly as I could to stand and fight the next person. This is an extreme example but it happened to my brother. My brother kicked, punched and ran! He lived thru it, but took alot of blows and had internal bleeding a big crack on his skull. The morale is hopefully we will not have to go thru any of that but if it happened to you?

ginosifu

[mooyingmantis]

mooying


I learned bone setting and cranial sacrum therapy another name for chiropractor, in my OM studies. With this cours you learn joint manipulation, degrees of movement and motion, placments, alignment.
Along with this you learn trama, fractures, breakage, tendon tears and ligaments, facia etc etc. when you are talking about breaking the vertebrea you are dealing with fracturing the articular process and transvers process or the smal section of the pedicle or lamnia. Any area of this bone cannot just be twisted and break. You can also ask any chiropractor this is common knowledge in thsi field.


I will agree you can damage the spinal cord if pinched, but agin this is super human strength to tiwst the neck in s uch a way that the body wont protect itself. sometiems the force of a car accident can cause swelling and inflamation whip lash, but I would say no one can creat the same force of a 30 mile an hour crash with thier bare hands..



Richard can I ask why you dont redirect their arms downward? its a more natural movement for you and more effective then upwards......

Mike,
Applying pressure to the neck in the way Gino demonstrates (bending and dropping the body weight on it) doesn't require much pressure to injure the neck muscles, even if you take the vertebra and the spinal cord out of the picture.
I don't at all question your expertise in OM, just wondered if there was an actual scientific/medical study for the 900 lbs. of pressure statement. Such facts and figures always catch my attention, being the anal kind of person I am. :)

Why redirect upwards? In a surprise encounter, I would expect that my hands would be in the lower gate. Therefore, rising would be the natural movement. And as SoCo Kungfu said, "Direct up and now their extended up and you have a window to counter". Directing down covers their vitals with their arms and upper torso. It also sets yourself up for the opponent to shoot in on you if they go with your force. Of course, forcing their energy downwards is valid. I just prefer making their vitals my vittles if the need arises.

[EarthDragon]

gino, gottcha, I understand where your coming from and yes yuo could damage the neck seruiously if you have it a acute angle and dropped your body weight on it in that postition.

Soco and Richard
when redirecting any oncoming attack the most effective way is always going to be downward, opening the upper gate or closing the centerline, unless a much shorter person is punching upwards at your face, but in the case of a shove, oppponents force can be redirected downward with less effort and greater effect.

True mastery of self movement means you....minimal effort with maximum results. repelling 2000lbs with 4 oz of force is an old taji saying.

If you in your next class have a person attempt to push you, lean back slighty and circle your hands around the outside of his hands/wrists and with your handss circle inward and downward to redirect.
Then try it again upward and outward you will find you are fighting the natural movements of thier body, thus making it more resisting. trust me try it.

you speak of countering after this, well thier body and head come forward and thier arms are on the outside of yours............. pick your counter... This is a taji push defense the best and most comprehensive I have ever seen, also found in Aikido.

[SJGuy]

U sould never allow the push/shove to land.... people can shove pretty hard and with some force, you cannot react to counter quick enough once contact is made...jus sayin

What should happen isn't always what does happen.

[YouKnowWho]

What should happen isn't always what does happen.

Even if the skill is perfect, the Gong will decide whether your skill will work or not. IMO, it's very difficult to discuss any combat moves exchange because we don't know the other's person's CMA background. It's just like the ancient Chinese old saying:

A. My spear can penetrate all the shields in the world.
B: My shield can stop all the spears on this planet.
C: What will happen if A uses his spear to against B's shield?

[SJGuy]

Even if the skill is perfect, the Gong will decide whether your skill will work or not. IMO, it's very difficult to discuss any combat moves exchange because we don't know the other's person's CMA background. It's just like the ancient Chinese old saying:

A. My spear can penetrate all the shields in the world.
B: My shield can stop all the spears on this planet.
C: What will happen if A uses his spear to against B's shield?

That's kind of what I was getting at. You can theory-fight any combination, etc. but reality is very rarely that perfect.

[Violent Designs]

mao dun...

[Merryprankster]

Regarding the front shove and my previous comment of "it depends."

It's going to depend on where you both are relative to each other. In wrestling, for instance, when the opponent reaches out to tap or push your shoulders, it is very common to post the arms up PRECISELY as shown below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOwsLP2N6sE

This is extremely effective. They are pushing on you, you post their arms up because an extended arm is biomechanically weak, drop under it, and either go for a shot or a body lock.

If, however, they are holding their hands low, or pushing you low for some reason, you can clear your arms to the inside (your arms pass to the inside and angled down compared to theirs). Posting up would be silly, since their elbows are lower than yours.

[YouKnowWho]

I didn't pay too much attention on this thread because 1st, your opponent's front shove can't hurt you, 2nd, his front shove can create a lot of opportunities for you. It will be a PLUS and not a MINUS.

It's like to ask, "How to defend against a beautiful girl who wants to rape you?"

[Merryprankster]

YouKnowWho: LOL! and truth

[ginosifu]

It's going to depend on where you both are relative to each other. In wrestling, for instance, when the opponent reaches out to tap or push your shoulders, it is very common to post the arms up PRECISELY as shown below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOwsLP2N6sE

This is extremely effective. They are pushing on you, you post their arms up because an extended arm is biomechanically weak, drop under it, and either go for a shot or a body lock.

Very nice demo of your point ! Posting the elbows up demonstrates an Kung Fu Maxum: Control the opponents wrist = Control their arm. Control the opponents elbow = Control their Body.

Thanks

ginosifu

[goju]

I didn't pay too much attention on this thread because 1st, your opponent's front shove can't hurt you"

a shove can can knock you to the floor or make you slam into or fall on something something that not gonna feel nice

[YouKnowWho]

a shove can can knock you to the floor or make you slam into or fall on something something that not gonna feel nice

If my opponent can knock me out with his d!ck, it may be time for me to get a rope, find a quite place, and hang myself. :D

Of course anything can be possible. But "push" is not "throw" because your legs are still free. It's very unusual to see on any SC/Judo/wrestling mat that someone just uses a plain "push" to send his opponent to the ground.

[mooyingmantis]

Soco and Richard
when redirecting any oncoming attack the most effective way is always going to be downward, opening the upper gate or closing the centerline, unless a much shorter person is punching upwards at your face, but in the case of a shove, oppponents force can be redirected downward with less effort and greater effect.

True mastery of self movement means you....minimal effort with maximum results. repelling 2000lbs with 4 oz of force is an old taji saying.

If you in your next class have a person attempt to push you, lean back slighty and circle your hands around the outside of his hands/wrists and with your handss circle inward and downward to redirect.
Then try it again upward and outward you will find you are fighting the natural movements of thier body, thus making it more resisting. trust me try it.

you speak of countering after this, well thier body and head come forward and thier arms are on the outside of yours............. pick your counter... This is a taji push defense the best and most comprehensive I have ever seen, also found in Aikido.

Still disagree bro. :)
I understand what you are saying, but I still disagree with what you propose (hands circle inwards).

I disagree with your premise for the following reasons:

1. It is based on a presumption that you know the attack is coming. If you do not know that the attack is coming, his linear attack (a simple push) will beat a circular defense (circling the hands inward) nearly every time.
2. If you do not know it is coming, your hands will probably be closer to the lower gate and in a position to block upwards.
3. What you propose is not a natural responsive body movement. Simply raising the arms from the lower gate to ward off an attack is a natural body response. While the inward circling hands is an artifical response. In Hakko-ryu Jujutsu and Yoshinkan Aikido, both offshoots of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, natural body responses are emphasized. One acquires faster muscle memory by doing movements that are natural to the body's instinctual processes than movements that work contrary to it.
4. The principle of repelling 2000lbs with 4 oz of force applies in either scenario and would apply regardless of the direction the redirect comes from as long as you are not meeting force with force.

I am by no means saying your method will not work. I just believe what I described can be learned faster and is a more natural means of defense against a surprise attack.

[Lucas]

If my opponent can knock me out with his d!ck, it may be time for me to get a rope, find a quite place, and hang myself. :D

.

Hello new quote :D

[Syn7]

Hello new quote :D

if you need help, i can lend you some rope, friend...:D

[goju]

If my opponent can knock me out with his d!ck, it may be time for me to get a rope, find a quite place, and hang myself. :D

Of course anything can be possible. But "push" is not "throw" because your legs are still free. It's very unusual to see on any SC/Judo/wrestling mat that someone just uses a plain "push" to send his opponent to the ground.


of course because odds are a grappler will intelligently defend against the shove not just let himself be shoved

i shoved people to the ground more than once when i got into an actual fight an i could easily jump on them from that postion before they could get up and punch their face

if they dont know how to grapple they have little chance of getting my big arse off of them once i get mount

[Syn7]

i think the front shove is a lot more common than alot of you airmchair warriors seem to think...


im willing to bet that out of the people here who talk battle, maybe 1/3, if that have actually been in alot of real fights... and i dont mean the fistfight from your school days or a mini altercation with a drunk at the bar... thats pus$y sh!t, i mean real fights...

its very clear by what some people type that they have never really used their stuff like they either say they have, or maybe even belive they have...
esspecially the too deadly to spar crowd...
fukcing joke, thats not fighting, its called eating eachother d!cks to make everyone feel special, like they know what they are doing...

you circle j3rkers make me laugh...

its like everyday is reach-around day for 2/3rds of the MA crowd...

[bawang]

u mad bro?

[Lucas]

if you need help, i can lend you some rope, friend...:D

rofl...not until you can KO me with your d!ck :eek:

[YouKnowWho]

The only throw that's equiavlent to "front shove" that I can think of is this.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3548/pushf.jpg

[Lucas]

it would be weird to have someone try to pull on my waist like that, i never have anyone try to pull me down like that yet.

from there you can follow him to the ground or let him get back up.


in frame 1 he looks like hes asking for a flying knee :D

[Lucas]

of course because odds are a grappler will intelligently defend against the shove not just let himself be shoved

i shoved people to the ground more than once when i got into an actual fight an i could easily jump on them from that postion before they could get up and punch their face

if they dont know how to grapple they have little chance of getting my big arse off of them once i get mount

Goju in mount.

http://images.paraorkut.com/img/funnypics/images/o/owned_wrestler-12249.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

it would be weird to have someone try to pull on my waist like that, i never have anyone try to pull me down like that yet.

That's "bear hug".

http://www.google.com.hk/imglanding?q=bear+hug&hl=zh-CN&safe=strict&sa=X&rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS278US278&biw=1379&bih=752&tbs=isch:1&prmd=iv&tbnid=XLaH24fryeCUZM:&imgrefurl=http://www.zazzle.com/cute_bear_hug_bears_postcard-239052718842907705&imgurl=http://rlv.zcache.com/cute_bear_hug_bears_postcard-p239052718842907705qibm_400.jpg&zoom=1&w=400&h=400&iact=hc&ei=R6sKTZ69OYX6lwfX59CsAw&oei=R6sKTZ69OYX6lwfX59CsAw&esq=1&page=1&tbnh=139&tbnw=136&start=0&ved=1t:429,r:24,s:0

http://www.google.com.hk/imglanding?q=bear+hug&hl=zh-CN&safe=strict&sa=X&rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS278US278&tbs=isch:1&prmd=iv&tbnid=0H7EE0GTIqx2UM:&imgrefurl=http://venturebeat.com/2010/09/10/big-blues-bear-hug-for-silicon-valley-startups/&imgurl=http://cdn.venturebeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/big-blue-bear-hug.jpg&zoom=1&w=400&h=378&iact=hc&ei=pending&oei=LakKTeOAA4GclgfC57m9Aw&esq=4&page=1&tbnh=133&tbnw=141&start=0&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0&biw=1379&bih=752

http://www.google.com.hk/imglanding?q=bear+hug&hl=zh-CN&safe=strict&sa=X&rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS278US278&biw=1379&bih=752&tbs=isch:1&prmd=iv&tbnid=jJNIOmTt5lZHEM:&imgrefurl=http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Bear-Hug-Posters_i308545_.htm&imgurl=http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/7/786/MB4I000Z/posters/egan-rick-bear-hug.jpg&zoom=1&w=337&h=450&iact=hc&ei=WakKTbj4NeWynAeMs9n5Dg&oei=LakKTeOAA4GclgfC57m9Aw&esq=4&page=1&tbnh=133&tbnw=96&start=0&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

http://www.google.com.hk/imglanding?q=bear+hug&hl=zh-CN&safe=strict&sa=X&rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS278US278&biw=1379&bih=752&tbs=isch:1&tbnid=Im3SHtcp_Iva0M:&imgrefurl=http://curbly.com/Zukzuk/photos/59730&imgurl=http://s3.amazonaws.com/curbly_uploads_production/photos/0000/0005/9730/bear_hug_whole.jpg&zoom=1&w=465&h=465&iact=rc&ei=M6kKTdmYI8O8nAePuPj9Dg&oei=LakKTeOAA4GclgfC57m9Aw&esq=2&page=2&tbnh=141&tbnw=153&start=32&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:32

[goju]

Goju in mount.

http://images.paraorkut.com/img/funnypics/images/o/owned_wrestler-12249.jpg

oh good lord:eek: