Shuai Chiao for mma

[LynyrdSkynyrd]

I'm curious if anyone here has trained in shuai chiao and if so which lineage they would recommend for somebody looking to supplement their mma training.

[ironclaw1981]

I have kinda wondered about the same thing, I'm guessing it would be great for mma its just so rare is why we haven't seen it more is what I'm guessing, I have always wanted to study it!! Namean

[bawang]

what the fuk is a shuai chiao? speak proper chinese whitey. show some respect.
*rubs testicles

[Michael Dasargo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjj3ae3HBFA&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gibD8YtktgI&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QI3uaCWz6vI&feature=player_embedded

If you're coming from a CMA or MT background, Sanda/San Shou may be an easier transition.

If you're coming from BJJ, Judo may seem more familiar.

Good luck,
M.Dasargo

[LynyrdSkynyrd]

Well i've fought sanshou before as well as mma. I have a background in cma and do bjj and a little judo but have an interest in shuai chiao.

[YouKnowWho]

SC won't be good for MMA.

[Frost]

if you are thinking of fighting MMA i would look to western wrestling over SC and judo, and if you had to pick one judo over SC, for obvious reasons

[LynyrdSkynyrd]

Why judo over sc for obvious reasons?

[IronWeasel]

Why judo over sc for obvious reasons?



Prolly because Judo is more for sport than for combat.

Just as mma is more of a sport than actual combat.

[Ben Gash]

Surely more likely he meant that it's easier to find quality Judo instruction...

[LynyrdSkynyrd]

Oh ok that makes sense but im not concerned about being able to find quality instruction. i'm surprised by the responses though so far. i thought people on a cma board would have thought that sc would be good for mma

[lkfmdc]

There are more people doing wrestling at a higher level than doing Judo

There are more people doing judo at a higher level than doing Shuai Jiao

Think of it this way, which is more impressive

Muay Thai champion of Newark NJ or Muay Thai champion of Lumpinee stadium in Bangkok Thailand?

Also, depending on where you are, may not have much choice, Shuai Jiao isn't exactly popular in the US

[Syn7]

Muay Thai champion of Newark NJ or Muay Thai champion of Lumpinee stadium in Bangkok Thailand?


u new yorkers never pass an opportunity to rag on newark huh... lol...

[YouKnowWho]

i thought people on a cma board would have thought that sc would be good for mma

When you said that SC will be good for MMA, some MMA guys will start to argue against you for the next 20 pages, and turn this thread into TCMA vs MMA thread. If you said that SC will not be good for MMA, you won't give those guys any chance to start that argument. There is no need to use your "hot face" to touch someone's "cold ass".

A: I'm pretty ....
B: No! You are ugly ...
C: You are clueless how ugly you are ...
A: :mad: ...

A: I'm ugly ...
B: :eek: ...
C: :eek: ...
A: :cool: ...

[Frost]

There are more people doing wrestling at a higher level than doing Judo

There are more people doing judo at a higher level than doing Shuai Jiao

Think of it this way, which is more impressive

Muay Thai champion of Newark NJ or Muay Thai champion of Lumpinee stadium in Bangkok Thailand?

Also, depending on where you are, may not have much choice, Shuai Jiao isn't exactly popular in the US

this is part of what i meant (a big part), plus wrestling is a jackless sport, as is MMA, and although there is a cross over between the two you have to modify what you do with a jacket to what you do without one, not only is wrestling open to a bigger competition pool its rule set it is also easy to transition from, plus it has a ground game of sort :)

Also since judo and wrestling do have ground elements the throw takes this into account, how you land is almost as important as how you throw, SC does not have this, just see the clips posted on this post lovely sweep in one of them, but the opponent has plenty of room and space to get back up

judo has a ground game so at least you will learn pins, submissions and get ups, thats why i listed it as i did, no hatred of CMA just an honest opinion

[Syn7]

this is part of what i meant (a big part), plus wrestling is a jackless sport, as is MMA, and although there is a cross over between the two you have to modify what you do with a jacket to what you do without one, not only is wrestling open to a bigger competition pool its rule set it is also easy to transition from, plus it has a ground game of sort :)

Also since judo and wrestling do have ground elements the throw takes this into account, how you land is almost as important as how you throw, SC does not have this, just see the clips posted on this post lovely sweep in one of them, but the opponent has plenty of room and space to get back up

judo has a ground game so at least you will learn pins, submissions and get ups, thats why i listed it as i did, no hatred of CMA just an honest opinion

also wreslers do very well because in wrestling you are rewarded for big tosses...
people always ask "bjj is so advanced on the ground but the takedowns suck and more often than not its a "drag down" as opposed to a takedown... in bjj you arent rewarded any more for what would be a 5 point throw in wretling... in bjj the big points are in mounts, top or back... whereas in wretling, you can win on takedowns alone, without ever touching the mat...

an example... i had a friendly pis$ing contest with a good bjj player and it got intense quick... i didnt like him, he ****ed me off with his attitude so i went out to break him after he started getting too serious... i hit him wiyth a giant double... he got his guard, i backed out and let him stand... two seconds later, BAM 5 point throw... back off, let him up, bang, huge double... backed off... did it again and again till he gave up... i had no game on the floor compared to this guy but i could take him down hard and at will... i won... i never hit him either, but could have many times... dont underestimate a wrestler man... best base for mma IMO...

[Frost]

also wreslers do very well because in wrestling you are rewarded for big tosses...
people always ask "bjj is so advanced on the ground but the takedowns suck and more often than not its a "drag down" as opposed to a takedown... in bjj you arent rewarded any more for what would be a 5 point throw in wretling... in bjj the big points are in mounts, top or back... whereas in wretling, you can win on takedowns alone, without ever touching the mat...

an example... i had a friendly pis$ing contest with a good bjj player and it got intense quick... i didnt like him, he ****ed me off with his attitude so i went out to break him after he started getting too serious... i hit him wiyth a giant double... he got his guard, i backed out and let him stand... two seconds later, BAM 5 point throw... back off, let him up, bang, huge double... backed off... did it again and again till he gave up... i had no game on the floor compared to this guy but i could take him down hard and at will... i won... i never hit him either, but could have many times... dont underestimate a wrestler man... best base for mma IMO...


Yep but that’s not the point I was making, I’m trying not to make it a wrestling v BJJ or tcma s*cks thread (I’m being a good boy these days) instead I wanted to be impartial and look at what wrestling/takedown art would be best for MMA (I happen to agree with you as shaolin’s last fight showed he who dictates range wins the fight and that is generally the wrestler).

Irrespective of art form, your personal background or bias the questions you have to ask are as follows:

1) how easy do the skills cross over to the venue you are looking to compete in? (the less modifications you have to make the more time efficient it will be. Arts that don’t allow a ground game, don’t generally follow the takedown to the mat for dominate position and which teaches grips etc which have to be modified no gi are not that efficient)
2) how big is the talent pool (the bigger the talent pool the better the level of teaching and the better you will get, generally)
3) How easy is it to find good instruction (the bigger the talent pool the easy it is generally to find good instruction, and the more often teams are encouraged to compete the easier it is to see where good instruction can be found)

For me all of the above point to a clear winner in the USA being wrestling (in western Europe it will probably be judo)

[Syn7]

nah it wasnt a diss on bjj or tcma... i like both... i practice both... but i agree, you should aquire skill sets that are most easilly transferable to your chosen rule set... diversifying is the key... i just say wrestling is best for mma because all you have to do is be a wet carpet for 15 minutes and hold a guy down like you wouldve been doing for years... boring fight, no doubt... but a W none the less... throw in some more dynamic skill sets... learn to work off ur back and how to avoid getting caught up in someones guard... wrstlers make some very common mistakes with bjj, like when they try to back out of guard and get caught, or fall right into the bjj trap and follow your natural instincts, you shrug one way and your done... or giving their neck while shooting... or holding on while some kickboxer repeatedly knees you in the face, total survival instinct for a wrestler in an mma match where he's being beat up, take the shot, hold on for dear life... it can work, but it does suggest a limited range of skills.... but once you get over that, learn to strike... its money...

[Violent Designs]

despite any personal biases wrestling/throwing arts dictate the position of the fight.

even if a striker with godly DEFENSIVELY wrestler can dictate the fight to be standing.

but a better wrestler will still put you on your back.

GG.

[YouKnowWho]

despite any personal biases wrestling/throwing arts dictate the position of the fight.

The TCMA guideline is "If your opponent's weight is on the front leg, you attack low. If your oppponent's weight is on the back leg, you attack high". The reason is simple. If your opponent has less weight on his front leg, it will be very easy for him to pull his leading leg back and lead your shooting into the "emptiness". This is very important guideline in CMA. I'm not sure wrestlers folllow this guideline. It seems to me that they like to attack low no matter how their opponrnt's weight distributation may be. Does wrestler use "head lock" at all?

[EarthDragon]

I'm not sure wrestlers folllow this guideline. It seems to me that they like to attack low no matter how their opponrnt's weight distributation may be. Does wrestler use "head lock" at all?
the wreslters at my school shoot no matter weight distribution, actually most fo them said the weight should alwys be 50/50 since its hard to crouch with uneven weight dist.

and yes headlocks are allowed , but neck turning is not... ie you cannot lead the head to turn holding the chin.
we must always remember when comparing
1. wrestling and MMA are SPORTS, kung uf is not, hard to compare sports that have rules to kung fu that has none.

[Merryprankster]

1. wrestling and MMA are SPORTS, kung uf is not, hard to compare sports that have rules to kung fu that has none.

This is silly. I agree they are sports. They are sports with rules. I would also agree that sports with rules are not "teh deadly street."

Do you spar in your Kung Fu? When you spar, are there rules? There must be some kind of rules - perhaps the most damaging techniques are pulled, ie controlled sparring. Perhaps those techniques are not even thrown. Perhaps eyegouging, groin strikes, or full speed standing joint breaks are disallowed. Perhaps you wear pads or gloves.

There are some rules, somewhere.

The point is only this - there are always rules.

If you're practicing without rules, then you're a liar, or stupid, or both. Or even if you choose to pick bar fights or something to test your kung fu in a no rules environment, that can't possibly form the bulwark of your training. (it also falls under the stupid category).

No - there are ALWAYS rules.

What people really get their panties in a twist about is what rules to follow.

[AdrianK]

Prolly because Judo is more for sport than for combat.

Just as mma is more of a sport than actual combat.

Thats so weird because I'm pretty sure not one of these people who supposedly train for "actual combat" could deal in a street fight with an MMA fighter. :rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

the wreslters at my school shoot no matter weight distribution,

http://cdn3.iofferphoto.com/img/item/674/014/61/UnDhdTzUh7ZXKOM.jpg

The professional wrestling use "head lock". Are professional wrestling and American wrestling the same thing? :confused:

[Mutant]

Shuai Chiao is a big part of our MMA program and works nicely for MMA, so I'd say for it if you can find a good teacher.

[EarthDragon]

merry ,
obviously you know the answers to the questions you asked, yes its a controlled sparring. My point was there is only survival when in a street confrontation. in the ring its a gentlmans game that have rules, guidlines, do's and dont's whatever you want to call it.
I accidently kicked a guy low and inside once cracked his cup and it dropped him to the matt for a long 2minutes, and I felt horrible for doing so, so much so that I didnt even want to throw a kick at him for the rest of the bout.

In the street I would have aimed for the same shot and did it twice with rage and a kill or be killed mentality, so sometimes the rules are to not get hurt, so in this case yes you are correct there are always rules.

Mutant

Shuai Chiao is a big part of our MMA program and works nicely for MMA can you eleborate on this? I find it difficult to perform most of the throws in SC as they are executed from a joint lock or the lead in is hard to present based on the hinderences and non comittle approach of your opponent. In a MMA setting or a tied up situation that doesnt happned very often exepct for chan tui, ya tiao or twai dung. Please understand I have been doing and teaching SC for some years so its not like I dont know how to throw. thanks in advance

[YouKnowWho]

If you know what contact points that you need for your throws, you can use your kicks to close in, use your punches to obtain those contact points that you need.

For example, if you have right leg forward, and your opponent has left leg forward (mirror stance). a right hook punch to your opponent's head will give you a chance to wrap your right arm over your opponent's left arm and end with an underhook or waist surround. With or without your left arm wrapping around your opponent's right arm, you can move in with a 搵(Wen) or 蹩(Bie).

The day that you think you are an octopus, and enjoy to use your arms to wrap your opponent like Royce Gracie did in his ground game, the day that you will integrate your throwing skill into your striking skill.

[tiaji1983]

In our school for what we do as sparring, we focus more on countering what the opponent gives us, then when it comes to a technique like an eye gouge, we simulate. the other person is supposed to acknowledge, but that obviously doesnt always happen. When training stubborn students we may sometimes have to hit the opponent lightly to get them to acknowledge the technique, but we dont hurt each other during this type of training on purpose, but if they still dont learn, sometimes its necessary. Stuborness can be a dangerous weakness. The whole point is to learn how to react, how to counter, and how to use what the opponent gives you to win.

[tiaji1983]

This includes training Chin Na, Shuai Jiao, strikes, kicks, pressure points, eye gouges, chokes, etc. Im just saying because it is a safe way to train and can let you know what is possible, even if not always using combat speed and power. After a while, it becomes embedded in you and it happens naturally.

[AdrianK]

Shuai Chiao is a big part of our MMA program and works nicely for MMA, so I'd say for it if you can find a good teacher.

Thats cool, so are any of these people actively competing?

[Frost]

The TCMA guideline is "If your opponent's weight is on the front leg, you attack low. If your oppponent's weight is on the back leg, you attack high". The reason is simple. If your opponent has less weight on his front leg, it will be very easy for him to pull his leading leg back and lead your shooting into the "emptiness". This is very important guideline in CMA. I'm not sure wrestlers folllow this guideline. It seems to me that they like to attack low no matter how their opponrnt's weight distributation may be. Does wrestler use "head lock" at all?

lol yes wrestlers use upper body takedowns as well as lower body takedowns, and they occasionally use head locks but like we have discussed before with out a jacket they are not that high percentage a move, since the shot covers about 10 feet they dont really care about weight distribution if you step back ill simply take a single or just blow through you and keep on doing the double

you see more doubles in mma because
a) its easy to attack the legs when someones hands are up high throwing punches
b)most none wrestlers cant really defend the shot that well

[Frost]

http://cdn3.iofferphoto.com/img/item/674/014/61/UnDhdTzUh7ZXKOM.jpg

The professional wrestling use "head lock". Are professional wrestling and American wrestling the same thing? :confused:

no becAUSE ONE IS REAL AND ONE FAKE

[Mutant]

Mutant
can you eleborate on this? I find it difficult to perform most of the throws in SC as they are executed from a joint lock or the lead in is hard to present based on the hinderences and non comittle approach of your opponent. In a MMA setting or a tied up situation that doesnt happned very often exepct for chan tui, ya tiao or twai dung. Please understand I have been doing and teaching SC for some years so its not like I dont know how to throw. thanks in advance
Hello sure, don't know how much I can really explain via the interweb but I'll give it a go.

The throws end up being nasty but not necessarily illegal. We might cross someones arms up for example and and instead of isolating for a break would go hard enough to throw with them in a bad position but not try to break joints or do it in a way that would present it as a standing joint lock into a throw, but flow right into the takedown in a legal way. Or instead of spiking someone on their head in a faster than gravity throw for example, just adjust it to be a tough throw but more reasonable for competition and within the rules. So instead of focusing on really taking someone out through all stages of a technique, use the elements that would be ultra-violent to instead add extra trapping and control and flowing into throws and takedowns, or back into strikes. Then depending on the rules, whether its pro or amateur, can apply these with varying degrees of nasty. Most people including judges wouldn't necessarily see much of the details of standing clinch range infighting and may not see if you apply something in setting up a throw thats a bit outside the box anyway. A lot of the same ideas behind the throws/takedowns some of us San Shou gyms have done for years, but in MMA format you can utilize that much more from CMA really.

[Mutant]

Thats cool, so are any of these people actively competing?
Yes sure we are, in fact our guy Kin who came up through our system was just ranked number 1 amateur in his weight class in New England (northeastmma.net and sherdog) and will go pro soon with expectation that he'll be making waves in UFC within a couple years or so, and we have plenty of other guys winning and heading pro as well.

Here he is (white shorts) taking out one of Sityotong/Delagrote's best MMA prospects who was very hyped and being scouted by WEC at this event:
http://www.youtube.com/user/KinKongMoy#p/a/f/0/reJy8vaSW3E

[Merryprankster]

Hey look at that! When CMA fighters fight, it looks like... fighting! :-)

[YouKnowWho]

you see more doubles in mma because
a) its easy to attack the legs when someones hands are up high throwing punches
b)most none wrestlers cant really defend the shot that well

I agree that most none wrestlers can't handle a good leg shooting. It doesn't mean that leg shooting is bullet proof though. When your opponent punches at you, you will have a lot of chance to "wrap" his arm and apply "head lock", "under hook", or "over hook". Boxers do "under hook" and "over hook" a lot so they can rest for a while until the referee separates them apart. I have always believed that "head lock", "under hook", and "over hook" are much safer than leg/legs shooting. At least you don't have to expose your head under your opponents knee, elbow, or punch. It all depends on how much training time that you have invested in certain area.

[Syn7]

I agree that most none wrestlers can't handle a good leg shooting. It doesn't mean that leg shooting is bullet proof though. When your opponent punches at you, you will have a lot of chance to "wrap" his arm and apply "head lock", "under hook", or "over hook". Boxers do "under hook" and "over hook" a lot so they can rest for a while until the referee separates them apart. I have always believed that "head lock", "under hook", and "over hook" are much safer than leg/legs shooting. At least you don't have to expose your head under your opponents knee, elbow, or punch. It all depends on how much training time that you have invested in certain area.

yeah but thats boxing.... in mma the clinch is a valid range... you can do alot of damage trading with over-unders... as for the double, you can hit that from the clinch too... if you put a more experienced wrestler in a headlock, get ready to go for a ride...

[Frost]

I agree that most none wrestlers can't handle a good leg shooting. It doesn't mean that leg shooting is bullet proof though. When your opponent punches at you, you will have a lot of chance to "wrap" his arm and apply "head lock", "under hook", or "over hook". Boxers do "under hook" and "over hook" a lot so they can rest for a while until the referee separates them apart. I have always believed that "head lock", "under hook", and "over hook" are much safer than leg/legs shooting. At least you don't have to expose your head under your opponents knee, elbow, or punch. It all depends on how much training time that you have invested in certain area.

Yep boxers use under and overs, but boxers are normally moving forwards because both the clinch and the takedown dont normally happen or matter, in mma you are hitting and moving because as a striked you dont want to be clinched

you can normally only wrap the arms in mma when you are in clinch range, reaching to wrap means you are going to get hit hard, most clinch in MMA happens either when against the fence or after a failed leg attack...why because otherwise its too measy for the guy to move back

thats why you see the double so much, it covers a lot of ground so its hard for the opponent to actually escape it, and even if he stuffs the takedown you are normally into a ground or clinch game, which is what you want. its not bullet proof but its a good way of cutting distance and getting to the clinch

[Frost]

yeah but thats boxing.... in mma the clinch is a valid range... you can do alot of damage trading with over-unders... as for the double, you can hit that from the clinch too... if you put a more experienced wrestler in a headlock, get ready to go for a ride...

true unders and overs are a 50 50 position in MMA either guy can hurt the other, and it normally happens up agaisnt the cage otherwise its too easy to escape

headlocks can also get your back taken very easily especially without a gi and all sweaty

yep doubles can be hit from anywhere, and the number of guys hit whilst attempting the shot is probably less than the number hit trying to enter with an upper body clinch

[YouKnowWho]

as a striked you dont want to be clinched

Ever a strike will have to commit on his punch soon or later. He just can't always move back.

[Frost]

Ever a strike will have to commit on his punch soon or later. He just can't always move back.

nope but lateral movement, heavy straight punches and good footwork are a nightmare to get through