Practicality of learning Kung Fu

[marbas]

Does anybody here go to a good kung fu school? One where they teach you application or where they let you spar? The reason why I ask is because it seems like there aren't any out there. There's a school by where I live that's run by a Shaolin Monk, or at least a former one who trained under Shi De Yang. I joined for a few months but the entire time he taught forms and no applications to anything. He also taught a very weird form of "beginners fist" which I've never seen before, where nothing was usable; it was all punches in horse stance with a few kicks. I was stuck doing the beginners fist form for four months, I quit before they taught me anything else.

Before that I took BJJ for six months. At those classes they taught the theory behind the move, let you practice it on a guy, let him practice it on you so you would know how it worked, then let you spar for 10 minutes. And even though that was over a year ago I can still remember and know how to execute all the moves.

I was wondering whether anyone here has actually found a use for kung fu. I know there's a million topics on whether it has real world applications or it can be used in MMA. But what I'm curious about is if it's actually useful from a fighting perspective. It seems like many kung fu teachers either don't know or don't teach the applications, which seems to make the forms useless. Sure, you learn the movements but if you don't know when to use them or have never used them before then what use are they? In my BJJ class it seemed like knowing the movements and applying them were two very different things. Is there any practicality in taking a kung fu class? I mean, if a Shaolin warrior monk who has trained his whole life isn't going to teach important concepts how can one rely on someone else?

[Violent Designs]

Real teachers are hard to come by? That's all I can tell you.

My sifu has a weird thing for asking me what I think of all these random ancient Chinese martial art quotes.

His usual reply is...

"COMPLETELY BULL****"

Go figure.

[EarthDragon]

you didnt give it a chance, 120 days is not long enough to judge something or someone. it really depneds what you are looking for... are you looking to get right into combat? then kung fu is not for you, its an art and hard work, trouble is you must learn how to move your body in a mannor that will allow you to perform the applications correctly. as a MA you must know the individual techniqes inside and out before you can apply them on somebody and make them work.

this is disturbing to me and the problem in america, ppl want instant results. kung fu is not instant, and if you try somethign for 3 months your gonna suck at it so its not really fair to judge a monk or complete style that has ben around for 1000's of years over this drop in the bucket of time.

some teachers want you to condition and train your legs in stances for at least 3 months before they teach you any applications much less fighting.
that or they like to weed out the peopel who are going to quit anyways. I dont teach anything to newbies for this reason. I dont want to waste my time teaching to someone whos going to just give it up. my time is too vaulable and I have full classes 5 days a week.

learn drum lessons and in 3 months you will only be doing paradiddles does that mean your teacher or all drumming schoold suck?

[David Jamieson]

*snip*

; it was all punches in horse stance with a few kicks. I was stuck doing the beginners fist form for four months,

I quit before they taught me anything else.

*snip*

But what I'm curious about is if it's actually useful from a fighting perspective.

It seems like many kung fu teachers either don't know or don't teach the applications, which seems to make the forms useless*snip*

I mean, if a Shaolin warrior monk who has trained his whole life isn't going to teach important concepts how can one rely on someone else?

1) basics basics

2. you quit and then cast judgment?

3) you couldn't be that curious, you quit.

4) you went to one teacher and it seems like "many" kung fu teachers are like that one that you quit from and didn't really learn anything?

5) If he spent his whole life, why do you expect to learn something with depth with 4 months in and quitting after that?

Did you quit bjj too? you read like you're enamoured with it. Why didn't you stick with that? Too boring? No striking? What was it that had you leave there as well?


Are we to take anything more from this than you are a troll?

[ironclaw1981]

Tsai family chuan fa is the lineage I study and its very combat oriented, their website is tsaikungfu.net and my sifu which is in the suberbs of chicago has fought mma, and put miguel torres on his ass a few times, go to youtube and search charles wilson vs miquel torres, great fight he also beat joe pearson

[ironclaw1981]

My sifus name is sifu charles wilson

[Syn7]

Does anybody here go to a good kung fu school? One where they teach you application or where they let you spar?

yes i do... yes we do... and yes they do...


you seem like someone who just doesnt see anything thru... you arent gonna learn how to kill people from a shaolin monk, disciple or anyone else who is genuinely involved and affiliated with the temple... you will get hard, get strong... but you wont learn any sort of fighting for awhile... they use a lifetime approach man, you have to understand that these are developed to create the desired effect over long periods of time... its very gradual... its all just hard work... the flash comes after the hard work... if you get there at all...

but there are many combat ready family and military styles that have very realistic applications and bordferline brutal training methods... its the opposite of the shaolin approach, in this case its get as hard and strong as fast as possible and get out into the fight... it will create a good fighter sooner... but if you look at the monk, what he has gained is far far diffferent than what the soldier will have gained... now when a soldier trains for life, for many years, and hasnt wrecked his body, theres your ultimate killer... if thats what you want...


the main difference here is that a monk learns to fight while getting strong... a soldier gets strong from learning to fight... one cultivates his mind, strives to know himself, fighting never was and never will be the primary goal... the other learns to fight out of necessity and probably throws his phyche out of whack... most soldiers have some form of pts... just imagine what it was like for them to go hand to hand... to look into the eyes of an enemy standing two feet away from you, him or you....
although monks have been used as soldiers before, all that mystical they are the best killing machines ever is absolute bull****... most of them are horrified at the very thought of violence... very few take the martial path... most just do the basic exercises... do tong zi gong forever...

[IronWeasel]

1) basics basics

2. you quit and then cast judgment?

3) you couldn't be that curious, you quit.

4) you went to one teacher and it seems like "many" kung fu teachers are like that one that you quit from and didn't really learn anything?

5) If he spent his whole life, why do you expect to learn something with depth with 4 months in and quitting after that?

Did you quit bjj too? you read like you're enamoured with it. Why didn't you stick with that? Too boring? No striking? What was it that had you leave there as well?


Are we to take anything more from this than you are a troll?



People just don't train hard enough. By the time I was in my third month of training, I was already 20th level!

[V.O.R.]

He also taught a very weird form of "beginners fist" which I've never seen before, where nothing was usable; it was all punches in horse stance with a few kicks. I was stuck doing the beginners fist form for four months, I quit before they taught me anything else.

Greetings,

I would have to agree with the others here on this forum. you're a quitter. It's traditional for a new student to go through a trial period. some teachers use this time to see what you're made of. the sad thing is you were proven to be like these fly-by-nite guys who wants it all without putting in the time the others have to to get it. You, are the kind of guys teachers are looking out for because just as fast as you've come, you're gone. Look, you left in only four months. Some people in traditional arts only learn a few hands and horse stance training in this period.

I think you should stick to your BJJ and leave the Chinese traditional arts to those who appreciate them more than you do.

No disrespect, just saying.

[bawang]

u got milked by fake monk, but ur a martial art window shopper in the first place so u deserved it.

[hskwarrior]

where do these guys keep coming from?


I was wondering whether anyone here has actually found a use for kung fu.

You know, it used to take 6 months in the old days before moving on to something different. I don't regret taking that long to fully get to understand what i was being shown. And i never questioned whether my sifu knew what he was doing. IT WAS CLEAR HE DID.

As a stand up martial art, Kung Fu or Gung Fu as some will say, is very good if you train right.


It seems like many kung fu teachers either don't know or don't teach the applications, which seems to make the forms useless.

This is true. But in many cases, teachers had to be careful with what they were teaching because if anyone got hurt in class the possibility of the student coming back to sue to teacher was pretty high. and teachers don't want to be sue or lose their schools.

On top of this, many teachers were only good within the studio. Sure, inside the school they were fast, strong, and even fierce. but, would crumble in a real fighting situation cause they never fought before or never trained to FIGHT...BUT, not all teachers are useless (combat wise). Some teachers have actually used in it real life situations and even killed with it.



I mean, if a Shaolin warrior monk who has trained his whole life isn't going to teach important concepts how can one rely on someone else?

It's clear you've never really trained in TCMA or you'd know that kung fu teachers don't usually give up all their hard earned knowledge in one 7 course meal.

[bawang]

i disagre wit u mang . its important to ask and question ur kung fu teacher. why suspend ur american mind and spirit during kung fu class?

americans always question authority especially liberals and hippies, so why these people always get milked in kung fu for years and years?

[hskwarrior]

i disagre wit u mang . its important to ask and question ur kung fu teacher. why suspend ur american mind and spirit during kung fu class?

americans always question authority especially liberals and hippies, so why these people always get milked in kung fu for years and years?

that's because they're dumb dumbs. it's their own faults for only hanging out with their own kind. when you hang out with mix ethnic groups you learn to leave your "I'M AMERICAN" at the door and just be normal human beings.

[Yung Apprentice]

Sanda/ San Shou is all about combat. You might not consider it tradition, but it is based off Kung Fu.

[bawang]

sanda was part of the westernizing effort in chinese military. its non chinese

[EarthDragon]

sanda/ San Shou is all about combat.
I would say sport, not combat.

[uki]

Does anybody here go to a good kung fu school? One where they teach you application or where they let you spar? The reason why I ask is because it seems like there aren't any out there. There's a school by where I live that's run by a Shaolin Monk, or at least a former one who trained under Shi De Yang. I joined for a few months but the entire time he taught forms and no applications to anything. He also taught a very weird form of "beginners fist" which I've never seen before, where nothing was usable; it was all punches in horse stance with a few kicks. I was stuck doing the beginners fist form for four months, I quit before they taught me anything else.

Before that I took BJJ for six months. At those classes they taught the theory behind the move, let you practice it on a guy, let him practice it on you so you would know how it worked, then let you spar for 10 minutes. And even though that was over a year ago I can still remember and know how to execute all the moves.

I was wondering whether anyone here has actually found a use for kung fu. I know there's a million topics on whether it has real world applications or it can be used in MMA. But what I'm curious about is if it's actually useful from a fighting perspective. It seems like many kung fu teachers either don't know or don't teach the applications, which seems to make the forms useless. Sure, you learn the movements but if you don't know when to use them or have never used them before then what use are they? In my BJJ class it seemed like knowing the movements and applying them were two very different things. Is there any practicality in taking a kung fu class? I mean, if a Shaolin warrior monk who has trained his whole life isn't going to teach important concepts how can one rely on someone else?you have much to remember aka LEARN... mind is the path. shaolin warrior monks are the creation of the communist republic of china. :D

[marbas]

2. you quit and then cast judgment?

4) you went to one teacher and it seems like "many" kung fu teachers are like that one that you quit from and didn't really learn anything?

5) If he spent his whole life, why do you expect to learn something with depth with 4 months in and quitting after that?

Did you quit bjj too? you read like you're enamoured with it. Why didn't you stick with that? Too boring? No striking? What was it that had you leave there as well?


Are we to take anything more from this than you are a troll?


Lol. I didn't expect people to take my question so personal. For the record I quit BJJ because I was starting up college and my college work interfered with the beginning BJJ classes. I was paying for something and not able to take the classes, so, I joined something that I would be able to actually go to. And since Kung fu seemed interesting as you don't typically see many claiming to have trained in it I jumped at the opportunity to train with a former Monk. I liked BJJ. I don't mind learning basics as I had to do with BJJ. The point at which I start questioning is when I am doing 6 punches in horse stance followed by two kicks four days a week for four months and nothing else. The class had all different levels of students and we would practice our forms after exercising towards the end I asked a student who has trained for 7 years about the application of some of the forms he was performing. He commented that he isn't taught application for any forms.


The consensus on this forum seems to be that I am not able to accurately judge my instructor and the way he teaches after being with him for four months. So let me ask you guys how long I should stay with my Kung Fu instructor before seeing if his teaching techniques were right for me? 5 Months? 6? A year? At what point am I able to judge my instructor? Please tell me since you seem to be able to judge me based on one post where you learn practically nothing about me.

There are numerous kung fu schools where I live. And you're right, I've only trained at one. I've looked at others. Most teach Wushu; the flashy acrobatic type of CMA. I've found another school where the instructor is from Brazil, and claims to have trained at the shaolin temple, I went to the school but they aren't taught applications either. None of the schools around my area teach this. They teach forms and nothing else. So, Yes, in my experience many schools don't teach this aspect. If you can prove otherwise then by all means please do. Now, I'm not saying that there are no schools that teach this but from what I can tell there are in the minority.

[bawang]

So let me ask you guys how long I should stay with my Kung Fu instructor before seeing if his teaching techniques were right for me?
two to three classes

[YouKnowWho]

At what point am I able to judge my instructor?

During the 1st day of your class, if the teacher's senior students could not beat you up effortless then you should not stay in that school.


Most teach Wushu; the flashy acrobatic type of CMA.
I can feel your frstration there. As much as I like to defend the honor of the TCMA, I'll never consider those modern Wushu guys as one of us.

[marbas]

y. as a MA you must know the individual techniqes inside and out before you can apply them on somebody and make them work.

this is disturbing to me and the problem in america, ppl want instant results. kung fu is not instant, and if you try somethign for 3 months your gonna suck at it so its not really fair to judge a monk or complete style that has ben around for 1000's of years over this drop in the bucket of time.

some teachers want you to condition and train your legs in stances for at least 3 months before they teach you any applications much less fighting.
that or they like to weed out the peopel who are going to quit anyways. I dont teach anything to newbies for this reason. I dont want to waste my time teaching to someone whos going to just give it up. my time is too vaulable and I have full classes 5 days a week.


I talked to people who trained with the guy for seven years. They've all told me they don't know the applications as they are not taught it. There seems to be a misconception that I quit because I couldn't kill someone with my pinky after 3 months. That's not why I left his school. I left because it was all forms and the vast majority of schools that are in the city are the same way. I haven't really seen kung fu competitions where students apply their skills. The only competitions are those in which a student is judged on how well a form is performed.



It's clear you've never really trained in TCMA or you'd know that kung fu teachers don't usually give up all their hard earned knowledge in one 7 course meal.

You're right. I never had before, but I did know that they don't teach you everything in four months. I talked to students who had been with the instructor for 7 years; since the school opened. They told me they weren't taught the applications. I expect a teacher to teach some sort of application work within 7 years even if it is just one move. During my time there towards the end, one of the students who had been with the school for about 5 years was attacked. Apparently someone cornered him, without any weapons, robbed him and gave him a black eye. The student gave up his wallet and ran away. This is what makes me ask about the practicality of it all.

[EarthDragon]

I asked a student who has trained for 7 years about the application of some of the forms he was performing. He commented that he isn't taught application for any forms.

are you sure about that? I would say if you spent 7 years in a school and you didnt know the applications then that person is just dumb for staying enrolled. 3 months yes, anything over a year you begin to learn the methods and applications of the movments you have pratcied for that last 365 days..... find a new school.

this is not true with all schools, I teach authentic traditional 8 step mantis. all of my students can fight, and I onluyteach ther seriuous no kids class no uniforms no sashes, just t shirts, blood sweat and tears. I have been accused of being to hard on my students but thats how i lenred the old school way.

We train like we fight and we cross train with everyone. I also have sperate wrestling teachers a professional boxer, BJJ and MMA teachers in my school. if you look you will find.

[PalmStriker]

If the shingle outside the door says "self-defense" and they are charging for those services you should walk out of each class feeling more prepared to defend yourself and help protect those who cannot. (and not by just fighting). My opinion.

[ginosifu]

Marbas:
When you entered this school, did you ask the the teacher (Monk) if they had taught self defense or did you just assume they did? A true old school monk will have you doing ma bo drills for a long time, however you will be able to see the teacher with senior student practicing self defense / applications of the movements.

I have been to Shaolin and seen the schools ther first hand. China is pushing students / teachers out like a McDojo, many of them don't have fighting skills. Most are form machines but there is a whole set of San Shou / San Da group of Monks out now.

You need to research the Monk... ask around town who has trained there. Or find a school that meets your needs. If self defense is your gig.... then find a school that will give you what you want.

Just to let you know that if you came to my school. you would have been told up front that we teach self defense. However if you made a stink about it I would have used you as practice dummy to demostrate all the techniques. I tell this to all my students- "When you first join and I tell what we do here. Don't question me about what you want for the first 6-12 months, you really have no clue what I do or how I get you what you want". I offer a trial class, in that class I will give a little taste of all the stuff you want, self defense, fitness, forms, monkey style, whatever you want. If you join after that initial class, shut up and get in the back of the class and do what I say. Then after 12 months if I did not give you want you expected then the door is yours.

ginosifu

[Syn7]

are you sure about that? I would say if you spent 7 years in a school and you didnt know the applications then that person is just dumb for staying enrolled. 3 months yes, anything over a year you begin to learn the methods and applications of the movments you have pratcied for that last 365 days..... find a new school.

this is not true with all schools, I teach authentic traditional 8 step mantis. all of my students can fight, and I onluyteach ther seriuous no kids class no uniforms no sashes, just t shirts, blood sweat and tears. I have been accused of being to hard on my students but thats how i lenred the old school way.

We train like we fight and we cross train with everyone. I also have sperate wrestling teachers a professional boxer, BJJ and MMA teachers in my school. if you look you will find.

so why keep the school name?? why not MMA USA or MA USA... you teach 8 step, wrestling bjj boxing and mma aswell correct??? couldnt you just as easilly be classed as a grappling school??? not trying to diss the name, i get it... but why not reflect what you have to offer in the name??? also you may scare off potential students who are weary of tcma... skeptical guys who could turn out to be your best students if you expose them to tcma thru a more comprehensive program like what your doing there... see what im sayin??? did you not change it becoz you didnt wanna lose the brand you already put so much time into??? you could just add on to the name... like "kung fu usa.... and mma"... lol... yeah thats dumb, but you see what i mean... maybe a name more reflective of a mix of martial arts, but not necessarillly MMA... get what i mea???

[bawang]

dont be intimidated always ask qestns mang ok be brave b strong

[SPJ]

When you are learning, it is in steps 1 2 3.
When you are using, it is only 1.
So use what you learn so far against a punching bag, and then against your classmate.

[SPJ]

I meant that find use or app for what you learn.
If have question, then ask.
It is easy to know the use of punches and kicks, is it not?
Or you think that horse stance, punches and kicks have no uses in fighting?

[marbas]

Marbas:
When you entered this school, did you ask the the teacher (Monk) if they had taught self defense or did you just assume they did? A true old school monk will have you doing ma bo drills for a long time, however you will be able to see the teacher with senior student practicing self defense / applications of the movements.

I have been to Shaolin and seen the schools ther first hand. China is pushing students / teachers out like a McDojo, many of them don't have fighting skills. Most are form machines but there is a whole set of San Shou / San Da group of Monks out now.

You need to research the Monk... ask around town who has trained there. Or find a school that meets your needs. If self defense is your gig.... then find a school that will give you what you want.




I asked. I was told while there was no sparring there was some sort of application taught. I never experienced that in class. While I practiced my basic form the teachers did walk around and help more advanced students, but it was never on application. It was giving tips on the form and such. I never saw a move in a form taught followed by an explanation of the application.

I researched the monk. He was apart of the shaolin touring group that showed off moves around the world; from what I learned you have to be very good to even join the squad. He also studied under Shi De Yang. Couldn't find much else after that

""When you first join and I tell what we do here. Don't question me about what you want for the first 6-12 months, you really have no clue what I do or how I get you what you want". I offer a trial class, in that class I will give a little taste of all the stuff you want, self defense, fitness, forms, monkey style, whatever you want. If you join after that initial class, shut up and get in the back of the class and do what I say"

That's what I want. However there is not a school, a kung fu school at least, that is like that around me. I gave the benefit of doubt and joined the monk's school because after all it was a Shaolin Monk that was in pretty high standing; training under a Monk seemed unbelievable. And it was.


"are you sure about that? I would say if you spent 7 years in a school and you didnt know the applications then that person is just dumb for staying enrolled. 3 months yes, anything over a year you begin to learn the methods and applications of the movments you have pratcied for that last 365 days..... find a new school.

this is not true with all schools, I teach authentic traditional 8 step mantis. all of my students can fight, and I onluyteach ther seriuous no kids class no uniforms no sashes, just t shirts, blood sweat and tears. I have been accused of being to hard on my students but thats how i lenred the old school way. "


Yes I am sure of that. And your school is what I thought what this Monk's school would be like.

[SPJ]

Do not underestimate the power of the basic as pointed out.
I once learned and practiced 5 element fists in xing yi for 3 years and 5 element palms in tong bei for 3 years before advancing in each style.
Actually even today I still practice them first before anything else. Basic is the root where we grow from.

[David Jamieson]

Lol. I didn't expect people to take my question so personal.

I didn't take it personal, I merely observed where your errors in thinking and judgment were.

I don't care about your circumstances, you asked a question, it was answered that it was you who were lacking and should perhaps reserve judgment in the future until your experience is more thorough and no, I don't think you can judge any course of study in 4 months of once or twice a week visits for an hour or two.

Anyway, come back when you've stuck with something for a couple of years and then make observations.

right now, you haven't finished your glass of milk. :)

[Syn7]

and no, I don't think you can judge any course of study in 4 months of once or twice a week visits for an hour or two.


if u have never done anything before...

[taai gihk yahn]

I think one of the difficulties with assessing a TCMA school based purely on a beginner's class is that a "legit" school and a form-fairy school may well have similar if not exactly the same sort of basics - stance work, conditioning, line basics; as such, someone unfamiliar with nuances will have a hard time assessing if it's a fighting or dancing school, by looking only at these things; of course, in any school, sooner rather than later one will see what the seniors are doing, and that should give one a much better idea of what's ahead; if the OP's claims re: speaking to students of 7 yrs. duration are true, than it would suggest that this particular school does not emphasize usage; but again, a school that is more combat oriented may well have a basics class that teaches things not quite so combat oriented (not to debate the relative effectiveness of such an approach, of course, just sayin');

[AdrianK]

Surprised to see so many people place the blame on the student.

Most of the time the blame is with the teacher.

Because in Martial Arts, many teachers forget that teaching itself is an entirely separate art and science. One that must be learned separately, from qualified individuals.

Thats not to say natural teaching talent doesn't exist, but it is the exception to the rule.


Thats great that you respect the old ways of teaching, but the old ways are just that. Old. And in the case of teaching, this is not a good thing.

And to the person who said that a kung fu teacher isn't just going to give up his hard earned knowledge for nothing: You're paying him for a service. It is his duty to do so. If he wants loyalty, he will inspire it. Otherwise, he is not deserving of it.

[Frost]

Surprised to see so many people place the blame on the student.

Most of the time the blame is with the teacher.

Because in Martial Arts, many teachers forget that teaching itself is an entirely separate art and science. One that must be learned separately, from qualified individuals.

Thats not to say natural teaching talent doesn't exist, but it is the exception to the rule.


Thats great that you respect the old ways of teaching, but the old ways are just that. Old. And in the case of teaching, this is not a good thing.

And to the person who said that a kung fu teacher isn't just going to give up his hard earned knowledge for nothing: You're paying him for a service. It is his duty to do so. If he wants loyalty, he will inspire it. Otherwise, he is not deserving of it.

lol common sense at last, this is the west not the east and the 21st century not the 18th

three months of being milked for money and not taught anything...no wonder old schools are dieing out

If you pay for a service you should expect to get something in retuirn, if not take your money elsewhere

If you as a teacher feel your time is too precious to watse on beginners why take there money?...this is a morally bankrupt way of working in my opinion and one of the reasons TCMA is in the mess its in

[bawang]

this is a morally bankrupt way of working in my opinion and one of the reasons TCMA is in the mess its in
when the recession hit and all the kung fu schools closed down i was so happy. i high five my friends and we have party and fireworks like in return of the jedi.

[David Jamieson]

Surprised to see so many people place the blame on the student.

why, if you had 4 months in at a university and then said that your impression was that their engineering department was crap would that make you or the university suspect?


Most of the time the blame is with the teacher. why? Is the teacher responsible foryour initial ignorance?


Because in Martial Arts, many teachers forget that teaching itself is an entirely separate art and science. One that must be learned separately, from qualified individuals. Not in my opinion. If you are integrated personally into an art form then teaching is part of your own discovery of the art form. Do you think all teachers should go through qualified pedagogical training institutions before they teach their subject matter or is it better that they are immersed and become subject matter experts?


Thats not to say natural teaching talent doesn't exist, but it is the exception to the rule. TRained ability to teach is the exception I'm afraid. Natural teaching talent grows with experience teaching.



Thats great that you respect the old ways of teaching, but the old ways are just that. Old. And in the case of teaching, this is not a good thing. Really? And you are the authority on this why? Why do you bother with learning an alphabet, that's old and reiterative and recursive training to learn it is old. As old as school itself. That's not good?


And to the person who said that a kung fu teacher isn't just going to give up his hard earned knowledge for nothing: You're paying him for a service. It is his duty to do so. If he wants loyalty, he will inspire it. Otherwise, he is not deserving of it. You are getting his service and the use of his facilities, but when it comes to an art form and particularly Kung Fu, or boxing or anything, you will not get anything by osmosis, you must do the work. If you quit after 4 months because of attitude or you don't like what you're doing, that's fine, but you don't deserve an art because you pay fees. You have to work for it and don't expect it to be transferred into you by someone else without that work.

Now excuse while I go and laugh about how Frost thinks that you are expounding common sense here. :p

Seriously, is it just boring over at trollshido talking about what each others nuts smell like night after night? It must be seeing as you all seem to congregate here and make lame and ghey attempts a t telling us about our art forms that you have little or no experience in by your own admissions.

retarded is the word that comes to mind. :rolleyes:

[bawang]

average guy gets disappointed on the first or second class. but because of the intimidating atmosphere and cult psychology they feel compelled to stay.

its not this guys fault he stayed for 4 months. this happens to a lot of people

[David Jamieson]

average guy gets disappointed on the first or second class. but because of the intimidating atmosphere and cult psychology they feel compelled to stay. when i was taking shotokan karate as a kid i noticed a lot of people weren't happy and didn't like it but kept going.

The constant kowtowing, which contributed to the culty flavour is what always made my eyebrow rise. But once you get pas the idiosyncrasies of where you are and start digging into the material, it all pans out.

No school, of any style of anything will teach you the be all and end all of self defense and martial arts.

all training systems have leaks.

for instance, what is the practicality of learning mma or any pugilism at all in a world where you aren't gonna face a fist fight in a serious violent encounter and it's more likely you will be shot, stabbed or bludgeoned. Is there anything offered to those ends to the masses of people who want to learn self defense and of those who do, ho thinks that just pugilism or wrestling is enough?

Kung Fu starts at what seems to be cryptic entrance rites. But you take it with you your whole life. I happen to like a lot of the trappings. It's what I like to do and what I like to study and after a few years, I guess I'm just tired of twerps popping in and lighting up about Chinese martial arts which they do not practice.

Fu(k those guys anyway and the horse they rode in on. They can suck it. lol

[bawang]

those entrance rites are too eaaily abused to manipulate people.

[Syn7]

why, if you had 4 months in at a university and then said that your impression was that their engineering department was crap would that make you or the university suspect?


it would if it was a poorly kept premesis and/or the grad students were retards...

[Syn7]

for instance, what is the practicality of learning mma or any pugilism at all in a world where you aren't gonna face a fist fight in a serious violent encounter and it's more likely you will be shot, stabbed or bludgeoned. Is there anything offered to those ends to the masses of people who want to learn self defense and of those who do, ho thinks that just pugilism or wrestling is enough?


hey if you wanna learn to kill and be ready for any violent encounter, you train to be a soldier... not some cult with mandatory 90$ PJ's... so who would win? the illest group of gung fu warriors or a platoon of well trained soldiers... ****, the kung fu guys can even have guns... but we all know what the end result would be... not to trivialize kung fu, it is what it is and thats cool... but its not for war either... maybe once, but not anymore... sure in hand to hand or close range weapons scenarios the old tactics still play a role... but you dont go hand to hand with steel unless youre crawling thru a jungle trying not to alert ur position or your position has been completely over run and its a last ditch effort to survive... wtf is 20 hours a week on a spade gonna do???

[David Jamieson]

hey if you wanna learn to kill and be ready for any violent encounter, you train to be a soldier... not some cult with mandatory 90$ PJ's... so who would win? the illest group of gung fu warriors or a platoon of well trained soldiers... ****, the kung fu guys can even have guns... but we all know what the end result would be... not to trivialize kung fu, it is what it is and thats cool... but its not for war either... maybe once, but not anymore... sure in hand to hand or close range weapons scenarios the old tactics still play a role... but you dont go hand to hand with steel unless youre crawling thru a jungle trying not to alert ur position or your position has been completely over run and its a last ditch effort to survive... wtf is 20 hours a week on a spade gonna do???

No one is forcing anyone to pay to learn classical kung fu.

People take up medieval swordplay study. No one forces them to do that either.

Mma training ain't gonna help you fight that platoon either. lol so, what's the point of that? I mean mma is what it is, but when it gets right down to it, it's just more sport pugilism and wrestling. Useless when it comes to actually defending against real life situations where someone puts their popper on your chest and squeezes right?

It is pointless to go to a Kung fu Forum and start complaining about Kung Fu and Chinese martial arts in general when you're just some dude with a few months in.

If you can't see the patent absurdity of that, then that's fine, you are who you are. lol :p

[bawang]

No one is forcing anyone to pay to learn classical kung fu.


no but in that kind of atmosphere u feel forced and compelled to learn. thats why some people dont liek kung fu classes but they keep going for reason they cant really explain.

i go because its fun and good excercise for my lazy ass. but some people watch too many david carridine and it fuks their head up

[Syn7]

No one is forcing anyone to pay to learn classical kung fu.

People take up medieval swordplay study. No one forces them to do that either.

Mma training ain't gonna help you fight that platoon either. lol so, what's the point of that? I mean mma is what it is, but when it gets right down to it, it's just more sport pugilism and wrestling. Useless when it comes to actually defending against real life situations where someone puts their popper on your chest and squeezes right?

It is pointless to go to a Kung fu Forum and start complaining about Kung Fu and Chinese martial arts in general when you're just some dude with a few months in.

If you can't see the patent absurdity of that, then that's fine, you are who you are. lol :p


what has any of this to do with mma??? you said mma, not me... seems like you wanna argue mma vs tcma or something... novel idea but i'll pass thanx...:rolleyes:


you brought up guns... i deaded it... done... training strictly kung fu to be a warrior is absolutely rediculous...

if you want to really be able to defend yourself, and your serious about it, train like a soldier...

if you wanna have fun, be healthy, move slow in the sun, do taiji...

if you wanna compete and test the limits of empty handed combat in the most realistic way possible while still being a sport and not a bloodbath, go train mma...

if you wanna get real tough and go beat random people up because you have a small d!ck and an inferiority complex, well then, fukc off...


pretty much sums it up doncha think?

[bawang]

but syn7, i have small penus and inferiorty complex.

[David Jamieson]

what has any of this to do with mma??? you said mma, not me... seems like you wanna argue mma vs tcma or something... novel idea but i'll pass thanx...:rolleyes: Try and stay with the thread syn7. lol Go back and review if you need to I guess, double rolly eyes to you! :p



you brought up guns... i deaded it... done... training strictly kung fu to be a warrior is absolutely rediculous... Why are you arguing with me?


if you want to really be able to defend yourself, and your serious about it, train like a soldier... soldiers train for defense? since when?


if you wanna have fun, be healthy, move slow in the sun, do taiji... Taichi is for old ladies and lazy people who don't want to do hard practice.


if you wanna compete and test the limits of empty handed combat in the most realistic way possible while still being a sport and not a bloodbath, go train mma... I'm sorry, I thought you didn't want to talk about mma comparitively, and yet, here you are doing that. Which is it then? that? or This?


if you wanna get real tough and go beat random people up because you have a small d!ck and an inferiority complex, well then, fukc off... That's a non-sequitur no response can be given here...



pretty much sums it up doncha think? NOt at all. YOu seem to think I am arguing with you in particular. I'm not.

My point is that the original posts premise is totally flawed and I have continued to point out why it is flawed. If you choose to jump in through some perceived slight, that's your prerogative and has little if anything to do with what I am pointing at in regards to the absurdity of the original posters inetntion with this thread.

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

3 months...hmm..what can one expect to learn in 3 months in Martial arts?
It's a valid question.
The answer is, depends on the MA AND on the school.
IF itis a system/school that is oriented towards practical use and application, in 3 months you would have already been exposed to the core of the techniques, shown how they work AND have sparred with a varying degree of contact.

If, however, the school is NOT oriented towards practical training you probably would have been exposed to what you were:
Impractical forms and solitary training of no immediate or practical value.

If you were looking for a practical MA school you were right to leave after 3 months if all you did was "horse stance" and forms training.

[hskwarrior]

And to the person who said that a kung fu teacher isn't just going to give up his hard earned knowledge for nothing: You're paying him for a service. It is his duty to do so. If he wants loyalty, he will inspire it. Otherwise, he is not deserving of it.

I said that. and i stand by this. if you are going to a Mcdojo or a McKwoon you may get your black belt LOL, but not in a traditional non commercial school. Try telling any teacher that he has to teach you what you want to learn in HIS school and watch how fast you are asked to go to one of those schools that will allow you to do that.

am i wrong or are you coming across like the TEACHER is BLESSED to have a student like you? and the teacher should just teach you what ever you want to learn, right? so you're special? gifted? the teacher should just be completely honored that you chose HIM to teach you?

[iunojupiter]

am i wrong or are you coming across like the TEACHER is BLESSED to have a student like you? and the teacher should just teach you what ever you want to learn, right? so you're special? gifted? the teacher should just be completely honored that you chose HIM to teach you?

Funny.. the thing is, in a society based on capitalism and "the customer is always right", then yes.... the teacher should be honored that the student chose him. Afterall, the teacher wouldn't get his money if he wasn't chosen by the student.
However, from a old school, eastern mindset... the Student should be honored that the teacher is allowing him to give him money...
The idiosyncrasies (sp?) when worlds collide...

Personally, I'm all for letting the first 3 months of a students tutelage be just the basics... but that would also include basic self defense. But that's just me.

Cheers

[Syn7]

but syn7, i have small penus and inferiorty complex.

lol... all good... but if it makes you wanna learn to fight so you can beat people up to feel better about yourself, well, you can fukc right off ;)

[Syn7]

Why are you arguing with me?

soldiers train for defense? since when?

haha, ur funny when you act like a polite d1ck... all im saying is if you really wanna defend yourself against all odds, train like a soldier...

are you really questioning whether a soldier trains for defence? be it his body, a hill, or a base... soldiers defend...


oh and they also defend our freedoms and create democracy for all!!!

oh no wait, i take that back:o

[Iron_Eagle_76]

If you are in a martial arts school, be it Kung Fu, Karate, MMA, or whatever and the only thing you have done in three months is forms, you are in the wrong place. After this amount of time you should be being taught applications of the basics you learned and training in some resistant manner. I have seen many schools who wait up to six months before letting someone spar but will have them doing mitt work, bag training, and other resistant circuit drills within the first few classes.

The thing is yes, it may seem disrespectful to question someone who is experienced as an instructor but here is the thing, good schools and good instructors are rarely questioned because they have their students doing and applying from day one. All this BS about shrouded secrecy in MA really needs to take a hike. Imagine going to the grocery store and asking how fresh the meat is and the butcher tells you to come back every day at this time for three months straight and he will reveal the best ribeye there is.:D

Martial arts that work and teach sound technique and produce good practioners don't need to hide behind some fabricated cloak of secrecy.

[hskwarrior]

Funny.. the thing is, in a society based on capitalism and "the customer is always right", then yes.... the teacher should be honored that the student chose him.

you'd be asked to go to one of those schools then if you came to my teacher. in fact, i don't know of ANY teacher who would.


Afterall, the teacher wouldn't get his money if he wasn't chosen by the student.

Not everyone teaches for money. and if you DO teach for money only, then you will have to incorporate Cardio Kick Boxing, Tai Chi, and all these other things outside the original method you were trying to teach. personally, i'm from a chinatown school and still deal with the community where it would be a huge joke when a student comes in as if "aren't you happy that i'm here, you're the chose one?"

now that sh1t has me laughing right now.....some people really think too highly of themselves, especially when they know nothing about TCMA.


However, from a old school, eastern mindset... the Student should be honored that the teacher is allowing him to give him money...
The idiosyncrasies (sp?) when worlds collide...

there is no mindset about "MONEY" when it comes to taking a student. and if MONEY is KING around the school you have chosen, go find another one cause you are going to get played for all you are worth. in the end you won't feel so gifted or special. LMAO

I come from a school where NOT being chinese was a big deal. i'm more honored that i was accepted in, but my road wasn't an easy one where NON chinese weren't really all that welcomed.

All of this issue i believe stems from the fact that ASIAN martial arts gets into the hands of NON ASIANS........it seems to NON ASIANS martial arts is a good way to make some money, not spread an art.

[bawang]

lol... all good... but if it makes you wanna learn to fight so you can beat people up to feel better about yourself, well, you can fukc right off ;)

but syn7, i learn to fight so i can beat up people to feel better about myself.


All of this issue i believe stems from the fact that ASIAN martial arts gets into the hands of NON ASIANS........it seems to NON ASIANS martial arts is a good way to make some money, not spread an art.

asian martial art made MAD MONEY in the 70's. that fad is now over. get over it man.
if u guys are smart go take a gracie seminar, get certed and add mma to your school name.

[hskwarrior]

Martial arts that work and teach sound technique and produce good practioners don't need to hide behind some fabricated cloak of secrecy.

what secrecy? It's usually the NON TCMA people who believe there are SECRETS taught. In my whole time as a TCMA i NEVER NEVER NEVER heard of SECRETS. i still don't know where people get the idea that TCMA contains secrets.

[bawang]

what secrecy? It's usually the NON TCMA people who believe there are SECRETS taught. In my whole time as a TCMA i NEVER NEVER NEVER heard of SECRETS. i still don't know where people get the idea that TCMA contains secrets.

from wing chun

[hskwarrior]

from wing chun

OHHHH! you mean......ah ah OHHHHHHH! I see now!

[SPJ]

but syn7, i have small penus and inferiorty complex.

yes there is a type of kung fu that you may shrink your yang tool at will.

so that you are not hurt by a kick to your groin.

iron groin I think?

:confused:

[Iron_Eagle_76]

what secrecy? It's usually the NON TCMA people who believe there are SECRETS taught. In my whole time as a TCMA i NEVER NEVER NEVER heard of SECRETS. i still don't know where people get the idea that TCMA contains secrets.

Probably true, but why do forms heavy MA not teach application of them, and spout off about grappling being in forms and other such nonsense? I agree, good TCMA does not need secrets or hocus pocus, but come on Frank, you cannot honestly tell me that there are not those who have tried to cash in on the mysticism many average folks associate with martial arts, particulary TCMA. That was what my point was. Good martial arts, be it Chinese, Japanese, Brazilian, American, even Canadian:p, does not need to lie or cloud people's judgement, they simply work.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Probably true, but why do forms heavy MA not teach application of them, and spout off about grappling being in forms and other such nonsense? I agree, good TCMA does not need secrets or hocus pocus, but come on Frank, you cannot honestly tell me that there are not those who have tried to cash in on the mysticism many average folks associate with martial arts, particulary TCMA. That was what my point was. Good martial arts, be it Chinese, Japanese, Brazilian, American, even Canadian:p, does not need to lie or cloud people's judgement, they simply work.

Indeed, I have tried to demystify everything that I can about MA, not just TCMA but all MA that I have experience in.
It isn't always easy, but it is the right thing to do.
The age of "snake oil sales men" is over.

[hskwarrior]

Probably true, but why do forms heavy MA not teach application of them,

maybe fear of being sued? losing their schools if someone hurt someone out in the street? idk. Commercial schools are watered down anyway. In my school, we learned to use it. the first week i joined my teachers school (when i was 14) i was in there sparring with my classmates.

i can't speak for other schools.


I agree, good TCMA does not need secrets or hocus pocus, but come on Frank, you cannot honestly tell me that there are not those who have tried to cash in on the mysticism many average folks associate with martial arts, particulary TCMA.

i totally agree. and i would be in the crowd that points fingers at that guy or those people who take advantage of someone by claiming to know the mysteries of gung fu. KUNG FU PANDA had the right answer when he first opened the DRAGON SCROLL (LOL).........no secrets....but the answer lies within YOU.

[bawang]

ur a grown man and watch kung fu panda?

son, i am disapoi nt

[hskwarrior]

ur a grown man and watch kung fu panda?

son, i am disapoi nt

YES! i was searching for the answers to the SECRET of gung fu!

I also like the last air bender.....and Hong Kong Phooey.

http://www.ramasscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/HongKongPhooey.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kung fu Panda rules !
:p

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Kung fu Panda rules !
:p

I heard they are making a sequel, my wife makes me watch every animated movie that comes out but in all honesty I usually enjoy them as much as she does.

[AdrianK]

why, if you had 4 months in at a university and then said that your impression was that their engineering department was crap would that make you or the university suspect?

If you wanted to be an engineer and attended 4 months at a university for that, then yes, most of the time you'd know in 4 months whether you're learning anything or not. Have you ever been to uni or even college??? Its usually pretty straightforward that what you're learning has application in your field of study.



why? Is the teacher responsible foryour initial ignorance?

Generally because they have little grasp on the proper ways to teach someone. Thats not to say that students aren't responsible too, but keep in mind that the majority of martial arts teachers have never studied teaching at a college or university.. So in general, where should we look first if a student isn't happy with a teacher that has zero professional qualifications in teaching?



Not in my opinion. If you are integrated personally into an art form then teaching is part of your own discovery of the art form. Do you think all teachers should go through qualified pedagogical training institutions before they teach their subject matter or is it better that they are immersed and become subject matter experts?

In your opinion? Cool dude. Just keep in mind that you're in the minority and that any number of respected professionals will tell you otherwise.

You're right that teaching is a part of your own discovery of the art form, but you're completely wrong in assuming that teaching ability is simplistic enough of a skill to just obtain through experience. It is its own art and its own science. There's years of technical understanding to go through.

Do I think all teachers should go through qualified institutions before they teach? Yeah, absolutely. Do I think a great teacher can learn simply from experience? Absolutely. But keep in mind that like I said, thats the exception to the rule.

Your last sentence gives a choice between two, as if they cannot both be done together. You do realize that simply being immersed in the subject matter, doesn't give you the ability to transmit it to other people, right? Teaching is largely connected to human psychology(an entirely separate science), something that is only very basically taught in martial arts schools.

But the basic point is, while learning how to teach from a qualified institution, you apply what you learn to what you want to teach, thus immersing yourself in your chosen field of study and simultaneously augmenting it with what you learn from the science of teaching.



TRained ability to teach is the exception I'm afraid. Natural teaching talent grows with experience teaching.

Funny choice of words there. It does not "grow", it is learned by experience. And it is limited by how well you know each student. Learned talent is not natural talent, by the way. And trained ability is far more common and effective than natural. You need only look at society to understand this. In almost all professions, trained ability is a requirement to employment. For a reason.



Really? And you are the authority on this why? Why do you bother with learning an alphabet, that's old and reiterative and recursive training to learn it is old. As old as school itself. That's not good?

Now you're just confusing yourself. The alphabet is subject matter, we're talking about the teaching of subject matter. Kung fu isn't bad because its old. However, the science of teaching evolves to include better methods of transmitting knowledge. Why learn the old ways that have long been proven outdated and have failed countless students throughout the years? We don't teach now how we taught years ago, for a reason.


You are getting his service and the use of his facilities, but when it comes to an art form and particularly Kung Fu, or boxing or anything, you will not get anything by osmosis, you must do the work. If you quit after 4 months because of attitude or you don't like what you're doing, that's fine, but you don't deserve an art because you pay fees. You have to work for it and don't expect it to be transferred into you by someone else without that work.

Its important to consider what you're learning and whether or not it'll be useful.


Now excuse while I go and laugh about how Frost thinks that you are expounding common sense here. :p


Seriously, is it just boring over at trollshido talking about what each others nuts smell like night after night? It must be seeing as you all seem to congregate here and make lame and ghey attempts a t telling us about our art forms that you have little or no experience in by your own admissions.

retarded is the word that comes to mind. :rolleyes:

You're way off base here. Its sad you have to result to insults to try and reinforce your points. I didn't attack kung fu, or you or any of the other members on this board. I practice and teach kung fu and have for many years. My point was that you need to look at the poor state of the arts and the severe lack of qualified teachers.

[EarthDragon]

SNY7

so why keep the school name?? why not MMA USA or MA USA... you teach 8 step, wrestling bjj boxing and mma aswell correct??? couldnt you just as easilly be classed as a grappling school??? not trying to diss the name, i get it... but why not reflect what you have to offer in the name???

I totaly understand your pointand the reason is KUNG FU USA is a well known and branded name across america, taiwan and canada. we used to be called the America Chinese Martial arts federation but it was too long and didnt explian to the masses in American what we did, so many years ago we changed it to be simpler and friendly to kung fu usa. I keep it for name reacognition.

I only teach mantis and taiji at the complex. I have other teachers running the wrestling and BJJ, however the complex I am in is called Cobra Mixed martial arts academy so it rings to what you were suggesting. Its large complex that houses all 3 of these arsts and we alll split the costs. Our websites are linked together and mos of the students cross train in all 3 classes. hope this explianed you concern, thanks

[wenshu]

@AdrianK

Well said.

[hskwarrior]

Originally posted by Adrian K.
"Generally because they have little grasp on the proper ways to teach someone. Thats not to say that students aren't responsible too, but keep in mind that the majority of martial arts teachers have never studied teaching at a college or university.. So in general, where should we look first if a student isn't happy with a teacher that has zero professional qualifications in teaching?"


Have you ever taught martial arts before? IF you have, where did YOU get your credentials for teaching? Seriously, the subject of whether a martial arts instructor has or was professionally trained in the science of "TEACHING" is one of the most NIT PICKY arguments someone can come up with. It's like someone is searching and searching for that LOOP HOLE that makes out to be the correct one.

IMHO, a person should not be teaching unless he IS COMPLETELY IMMERSED within the subject he is teaching. Some people just want to be a teacher so they can elevate themselves and feel better about themselves in some fashion. I myself do not have any credentials from a professional teaching institution, but i gained my teaching knowledge and experience by first learning what i was about to teach inside out. Then, my sifu would ask me to teach the newer students while simultaneously watching me as i taught them. He was watching to see if i understood what i was imparting, including my method of teaching.

My sigung learned to teach from his teacher, he took that knowledge and mixed it with his own and imparted that to his own students. my sifu learned to teach from his sifu, imparting his own and my sigung's method down to me.

Today, my teaching contains 4 generations of teaching methods not including my own. Mixed with my own knowledge of teaching the system that was handed down to me i'm backed up by 159 years of knowledge passed down through my lineage. So, I would have to disagree about your comment that "experience doesn't grow". Everything grows, knowledge, skill, content, and so on and so forth. I can honestly claim that i've grown from the first time i started teaching my system and say that by understanding that each person is an individual. And, not everyone learns the same way. Some students are thinkers, the others are doers. just in that case alone you have to know how to teach each one.

the proof is in the pudding, licensed training or not. you will know that a teacher is good from the first class. if you don't like the way he teaches, find someone else. but the "professional teaching" thing is weak. but that's just my opinion.

[mooyingmantis]

Probably true, but why do forms heavy MA not teach application of them...

Where do these schools exist? Other than in the minds of those who de-emphasize the use of forms in training? Can you name actual examples that you have trained in?

The premise that most traditional forms based schools do not teach applications is a "truism" and most know that truism are rarely true.

In 42 years of martial arts training, I have NEVER seen a forms oriented school (traditional jujutsu, aikido, karate or kung fu) that did not teach the applications of their forms.

[Lucas]

I was wondering whether anyone here has actually found a use for kung fu.

when you decide to study martial arts, you need to first personally define what your short term, and long term goals are. the long term may change, but that isnt important.

based on your goals, you need to find the right place to cater to your needs. you can get this at a cma school, however you need to properly research the places you will invest so much time at. you can go interview the teacher and ask them everything you are concerned about.

refusal to address your concerns is a good indication that you dont want to train there.

I use my kungfu all the time. I've also successfully defended myself 2 times over the past 10 years. The only two times I needed to over the past decade.

CMA is a vast network of a large variation of practices. These practices can range from esoteric all the way to professional law and military purposes.

Personally I dont blame you for leaving. You did not know what to expect exactly, and it is not what you were looking for. No blame in that.

[AdrianK]

[/I]

Have you ever taught martial arts before? IF you have, where did YOU get your credentials for teaching?

Absolutely, I teach on a regular basis. But it isn't my main business, nor am I charging people for it. I offer them my knowledge knowing full well that maybe my teaching ability can only extend so far. I tell all of my students this. I'm not a qualified teacher, I only have certifications issued by my instructor, and years of experience, however I'm only capable of transmitting my knowledge to the best of my personal abilities. I am not nearly the best teacher I could be, but since it is not my profession, I cannot devote my time to do so. If it is your profession, most martial arts schools run what? 2 or 3 hours a day? I don't see the problem with finding time to learn how to make your school and your students, better.

That being said, I'm not saying its a necessity if you teach at all, I'm saying if this is your business and you're getting paid for it, you have a responsibility to at the very least, to study the science of teaching. Thats not to say you can't be a great teacher without it(as I said before), but again, like I said, thats the exception to the rule. Very few of my instructors have ever had a college-level education. Some of them have been great at teaching, and some have been terrible. But I guarantee that all of them could've benefited from studying the science of teaching.





Seriously, the subject of whether a martial arts instructor has or was professionally trained in the science of "TEACHING" is one of the most NIT PICKY arguments someone can come up with. It's like someone is searching and searching for that LOOP HOLE that makes out to be the correct one.

You seem spoiled by what you feel have been experiences by good teachers. I've had the opportunity to train with dozens of teachers of varying disciplines and the majority of them are terrible teachers. Look, if you're learning martial arts, you should study anatomy, if you're teaching martial arts, you should study teaching. Can I tell you how many people who've been in martial arts for years, that have zero concept on where the liver is? Or the heart? Just as many instructors I've met who've been clueless on how to teach someone.

So yeah, it would make the entire community better if all of them decided to get a god****ed education in at the very least, teaching.



IMHO, a person should not be teaching unless he IS COMPLETELY IMMERSED within the subject he is teaching. Some people just want to be a teacher so they can elevate themselves and feel better about themselves in some fashion. I myself do not have any credentials from a professional teaching institution, but i gained my teaching knowledge and experience by first learning what i was about to teach inside out. Then, my sifu would ask me to teach the newer students while simultaneously watching me as i taught them. He was watching to see if i understood what i was imparting, including my method of teaching.

So you learned by how your instructor taught. Great, cool dude. This is all hit or miss. Maybe your teacher was good enough to pass on good teaching skills, and maybe his teacher was good enough to pass on good teaching skills to him, or maybe he just developed them on his own.

But this is the exception to the rule, and you'd do well to understand that by visiting some other schools in your area. That being said, immersion in a single chosen style is ridiculous. Just because you spend time learning anatomy and human psychology(both of which contribute greatly to martial arts), then you're no longer qualified to teach? You're over-exaggerating the complexity of it all. I can teach a jab even if I spend a week learning it and never touch it again. Its not as complicated as all that, so much that it requires complete immersion every second of every day. To be honest, I find the very idea of complete dedication, a pathetic, anti-social attempt at closing yourself off from the world. You're rejecting your basic humanity in favor of a cultist mentality and not only that, but encouraging others to do the same.



My sigung learned to teach from his teacher, he took that knowledge and mixed it with his own and imparted that to his own students. my sifu learned to teach from his sifu, imparting his own and my sigung's method down to me.

So then you have the best method of teaching ever. Cool dude. Thats not arrogant at all.



i'm backed up by 159 years of knowledge passed down through my lineage. So, I would have to disagree about your comment that "experience doesn't grow". Everything grows, knowledge, skill, content, and so on and so forth.

Did I say experience doesn't grow? No, my point was that it was a poor choice of words to say "grow" because more accurately it is "learned", and learned talent is not natural talent. The two are separate.

That being said though, your 159 years of teaching knowledge is laughable compared to the profession of teaching. :rolleyes: Even if you take your 159 years, and match it to the last 159 years of the teaching profession, its still laughable to compare the two, because one is a single person passing it down to another person, and another is a group of educated professionals passing it down to thousands and refining it with modern day scientific methods. I seriously doubt your instructor of 159 years ago was the intellectual equivalent of a large group of highly educated professionals with a well rounded knowledge base, based on scientific results. There's a saying for that, "two heads are better than one."



I can honestly claim that i've grown from the first time i started teaching my system and say that by understanding that each person is an individual. And, not everyone learns the same way. Some students are thinkers, the others are doers. just in that case alone you have to know how to teach each one.

I really can't believe you honestly think that the entirety of students can by defined within two groups. Are you legitimately serious or are you just effing with me?

[hskwarrior]

That being said though, your 159 years of teaching knowledge is laughable compared to the profession of teaching. Even if you take your 159 years, and match it to the last 159 years of the teaching profession, its still laughable to compare the two, because one is a single person passing it down to another person, and another is a group of educated professionals passing it down to thousands and refining it with modern day scientific methods. I seriously doubt your instructor of 159 years ago was the intellectual equivalent of a large group of highly educated professionals with a well rounded knowledge base, based on scientific results. There's a saying for that, "two heads are better than one."

you are the only one here making a stink about teaching credentials. :p


I really can't believe you honestly think that the entirety of students can by defined within two groups. Are you legitimately serious or are you just effing with me?

if there are no doers and no thinkers what is left?

[AdrianK]

you are the only one here making a stink about teaching credentials. :p

Lets get back to the main point and cut out all the other crap.

My main point was and still is, that in a sea of accusations against a student, we should first look at the teacher.




if there are no doers and no thinkers what is left?

Everyone is a doer and a thinker to varying degrees. Students are complex individuals that can't be thrown into two ridiculously broad categories.

[David Jamieson]

If you wanted to be an engineer and attended 4 months at a university for that, then yes, most of the time you'd know in 4 months whether you're learning anything or not. Have you ever been to uni or even college??? Its usually pretty straightforward that what you're learning has application in your field of study. You would be exposed to what lies ahead and you would come into possession of the texts you will use to get through. It is up to you to pay close attention. In four months, all planets aligned, you'll be fine. Like any learning environment. If you are missing a piece, you will experience a different outcome. If you enter with prejudice, your outcome is almost surely decided.





Generally because they have little grasp on the proper ways to teach someone. Thats not to say that students aren't responsible too, but keep in mind that the majority of martial arts teachers have never studied teaching at a college or university.. So in general, where should we look first if a student isn't happy with a teacher that has zero professional qualifications in teaching? Are you suggesting college or university is neccesary to teach martial arts? I mean, yeah in China it is, but here? How about Navajo blanket making, or is it ok to be still in the realm of folk arts?





In your opinion? Cool dude. Just keep in mind that you're in the minority and that any number of respected professionals will tell you otherwise. I don't think I am in the minority, except maybe the little group you've decided to stuff me in. :)



You're right that teaching is a part of your own discovery of the art form, but you're completely wrong in assuming that teaching ability is simplistic enough of a skill to just obtain through experience. It is its own art and its own science. There's years of technical understanding to go through. I don't think I suggested , not once that teaching is simplistic. That's your assumption.



Do I think all teachers should go through qualified institutions before they teach? Yeah, absolutely. Do I think a great teacher can learn simply from experience? Absolutely. But keep in mind that like I said, thats the exception to the rule. It's not teh exception to the rule, the reiterative learning experience has been around far longer than organized scholastic institutions. However did we get by for all those thousands of years? lol. Teaching colleges are even more recent and the effort there is knowledge distribution, which has many beneficial offshoots, but again, what's that got to do with martial arts?


Your last sentence gives a choice between two, as if they cannot both be done together. You do realize that simply being immersed in the subject matter, doesn't give you the ability to transmit it to other people, right? Teaching is largely connected to human psychology(an entirely separate science), something that is only very basically taught in martial arts schools. Of course they can be done together, I never suggested they couldn't, you assume again, but I don't for a second expect my boxing coach to have a teaching certificate or degree to teach me how to box anymore than I expect the same of my Kung Fu teacher or take your pick of the majority of those teaching martial arts out there in the world.


But the basic point is, while learning how to teach from a qualified institution, you apply what you learn to what you want to teach, thus immersing yourself in your chosen field of study and simultaneously augmenting it with what you learn from the science of teaching. it's really effective for academic studies and even applied studies, but bottom line is that martial arts is not a scholastic thing. It's global and it has a lot of shapes. Hence teacher student traditions, oral transmissions, physical transmissions etc etc etc that are not to be found in a textbook.





Funny choice of words there. It does not "grow", it is learned by experience. And it is limited by how well you know each student. Learned talent is not natural talent, by the way. And trained ability is far more common and effective than natural. You need only look at society to understand this. In almost all professions, trained ability is a requirement to employment. For a reason. You live in teh same world as me? There are expectations to any society. Having a degree doesn't mean "qualified and experienced". It means, the door is open. A seasoned individual carries more value to any workplace or learning environment. Especially martial arts. Time in counts. A Lot.




[/quote]Now you're just confusing yourself. The alphabet is subject matter, we're talking about the teaching of subject matter. Kung fu isn't bad because its old. However, the science of teaching evolves to include better methods of transmitting knowledge. Why learn the old ways that have long been proven outdated and have failed countless students throughout the years? We don't teach now how we taught years ago, for a reason.[/quote] If you are in the first grade, do you expect to learn more than the alphabet? And again, do you think that all of a sudden we are smarter as a species? We do that collaberatively, but in terms of martial arts, the old saying of "until we grow a new arm or leg..."



Its important to consider what you're learning and whether or not it'll be useful.


Now excuse while I go and laugh about how Frost thinks that you are expounding common sense here. :p
YOu're excused.



You're way off base here. Its sad you have to result to insults to try and reinforce your points. I didn't attack kung fu, or you or any of the other members on this board. I practice and teach kung fu and have for many years. My point was that you need to look at the poor state of the arts and the severe lack of qualified teachers. I'm not off base in context to what was said. Insults? To reinforce points? I said you attacked kung fu? Other members? I need to look at the poor state of the arts?

lol :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

those entrance rites are too eaaily abused to manipulate people.

there are too many stupid people around and in martial arts culture it's ok to take advantage of whoever wants to give you money for whatever they "think" you have for them. :p

[Frost]

It always amazes me that everyone on this board belongs to the 20% or so of good schools out there, I mean we all agree there is cr*p and mcdojo stuff out there that students should run a mile from but somehow we all managed to avoid them and are amazed when someone thinks there school was like that?

In four months as Ronin said you should have learned some basics, done some partner drills and be sparring with what you are learning, hell you should be isolated sparring in the first few weeks

If all you have done in the first few months is basics, stances and no partner drills its time to run for the hills

Saying that is not anti TCMA or pro MMA, its being anti bad teaching, and comparing it to attending a university is a bit much, why not compare it to another physical activity instead? (and I bet those of us who did attend university discovered the bad subjects and bad teachers and swapped modules in the first few weeks…I know I did)

How many people would go to tennis coach and accept just practising holding the racket and their stance for a week without hitting a ball or facing another player.. let alone four months? How many people would go and learn rugby and not expect to do any drills involving contact with another person for three months, its just silly

I have seen good tcma and bad tcma taught, I have seen good MMA and bad MMA taught, the difference is no one even in a bad MMA gym would hang around for three months if all they did was solo work with no contact with a partner…only in the TCMA world do we expect to have to put up with this cr*p in the name of proving oneself worthy of being a student :(

And I love how people complain that those of us disagreeing with this training methods are MMA guys and not tcma, I have over a decade in TCMA, close to two decades in TMA, still train and use it, but I don’t have blinkers on I know how much cr*p is out there and how much inefficient training and teaching there is.


As already pointed out most people running tcma classes aren’t trained coaches, haven’t been on coaching courses etc, teaching is a skill set that has to be developed ( a lot of MMA teachers are bad too, but its easy to find the good ones, they produce students that win)

Finally let me ask if four months is not long enough to judge a teacher how long is?

6 months, a year, 2? When can you make an informed opinion? When should you stop paying for a service you are not receiving?

To answer the original question I can from a school in the UK that was recognised for producing full contact fighters in the 70’s and 80’s and still put out fighters in semi and full contact events to this day, but the master was progressive, he made all his black sashs attend coaching courses, study western methods of training and teaching, made them spar with protection and use bags etc, but I left because as he got older his senior students that stayed became more interested in teaching sets and doing partner drills than actually sparring

Another of my teachers wrestled as his first martial art so a lot of what he did was practical and based around sparring…but for me at that time the amount of stuff he taught compared to what I could actually use in a fight meant I looked elsewhere to fill my gaps

So I have found a use for TCMA, but as a topping to my main arts: MMA and grappling. why because I feel what TCMA offers (at least to me) was a speciality in a certain range and an expertise dealing with certain attacks that we don’t really see in the west in this day and age. I use some hung gar and CLF at longer range, and in the clinch some of my southern and hakka hand, but that’s just me and my journey

To answer your question yes there are schools out there that can fight with TCMA (david ross is one who produces fighters and is from a traditional background) but its just as much (probably more) about the method used to train the art than the art itself, sound teaching methods and a competition outlook will keep an art honest, bad teaching methods and no competition …well look around you can see where that leads

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Where do these schools exist? Other than in the minds of those who de-emphasize the use of forms in training? Can you name actual examples that you have trained in?

The premise that most traditional forms based schools do not teach applications is a "truism" and most know that truism are rarely true.

In 42 years of martial arts training, I have NEVER seen a forms oriented school (traditional jujutsu, aikido, karate or kung fu) that did not teach the applications of their forms.

In my area I can tell you of two karate schools and one kung fu school that does just that. The kung fu school in particular is a "collector school", and by that I mean they collect as many forms as humanly possible because they feel quantity somehow equals quality. In the past when myself and my instructor visited this school they would show all these wonderful and pretty forms they had, but when asked by my instructor what the applications for them were, they looked dumbfounded.

The karate schools suffer from point tournament syndrome as I call it. They practice their kata with flashiness and no substance, to impress and wow during a tournament. This is the way the modern tournament has went, where it is more about flashy movements than substance movements. There is no application because what application is there for a back flip or jumping into a chinese split during a form/kata:confused:

Concerning the karate schools, I visited one a few times and used to share a school with another so I have seen first hand what it is they do. If you have never seen any crappy MA schools and have been training for 42 years, you are either very lucky or don't get out much.

[David Jamieson]

It always amazes me that everyone on this board belongs to the 20% or so of good schools out there, I mean we all agree there is cr*p and mcdojo stuff out there that students should run a mile from but somehow we all managed to avoid them and are amazed when someone thinks there school was like that?

In four months as Ronin said you should have learned some basics, done some partner drills and be sparring with what you are learning, hell you should be isolated sparring in the first few weeks

If all you have done in the first few months is basics, stances and no partner drills its time to run for the hills

Saying that is not anti TCMA or pro MMA, its being anti bad teaching, and comparing it to attending a university is a bit much, why not compare it to another physical activity instead? (and I bet those of us who did attend university discovered the bad subjects and bad teachers and swapped modules in the first few weeks…I know I did)

How many people would go to tennis coach and accept just practising holding the racket and their stance for a week without hitting a ball or facing another player.. let alone four months? How many people would go and learn rugby and not expect to do any drills involving contact with another person for three months, its just silly

I have seen good tcma and bad tcma taught, I have seen good MMA and bad MMA taught, the difference is no one even in a bad MMA gym would hang around for three months if all they did was solo work with no contact with a partner…only in the TCMA world do we expect to have to put up with this cr*p in the name of proving oneself worthy of being a student :(

And I love how people complain that those of us disagreeing with this training methods are MMA guys and not tcma, I have over a decade in TCMA, close to two decades in TMA, still train and use it, but I don’t have blinkers on I know how much cr*p is out there and how much inefficient training and teaching there is.


As already pointed out most people running tcma classes aren’t trained coaches, haven’t been on coaching courses etc, teaching is a skill set that has to be developed ( a lot of MMA teachers are bad too, but its easy to find the good ones, they produce students that win)

Finally let me ask if four months is not long enough to judge a teacher how long is?

6 months, a year, 2? When can you make an informed opinion? When should you stop paying for a service you are not receiving?

To answer the original question I can from a school in the UK that was recognised for producing full contact fighters in the 70’s and 80’s and still put out fighters in semi and full contact events to this day, but the master was progressive, he made all his black sashs attend coaching courses, study western methods of training and teaching, made them spar with protection and use bags etc, but I left because as he got older his senior students that stayed became more interested in teaching sets and doing partner drills than actually sparring

Another of my teachers wrestled as his first martial art so a lot of what he did was practical and based around sparring…but for me at that time the amount of stuff he taught compared to what I could actually use in a fight meant I looked elsewhere to fill my gaps

So I have found a use for TCMA, but as a topping to my main arts: MMA and grappling. why because I feel what TCMA offers (at least to me) was a speciality in a certain range and an expertise dealing with certain attacks that we don’t really see in the west in this day and age. I use some hung gar and CLF at longer range, and in the clinch some of my southern and hakka hand, but that’s just me and my journey

To answer your question yes there are schools out there that can fight with TCMA (david ross is one who produces fighters and is from a traditional background) but its just as much (probably more) about the method used to train the art than the art itself, sound teaching methods and a competition outlook will keep an art honest, bad teaching methods and no competition …well look around you can see where that leads


I somewhat agree with some of this and not some of it.
TCMA is what it is and it has a lot of variety in how it's transmitted, why it's transmitted and what it is to be used for from healthful practice to fighting.

Fight training is different in scope from overall training in a Kung Fu regimen. The training for one is not the same as the training for another. With the material in Kung Fu also being for qigong, healing and transformation process, that is where the points of ridicule are constantly drawn against it from the sport combat guys.

Bottom line, Kung Fu will be around for a long time whether anyone likes it or not. You will have crappy experiences wherever you go and you will find Kung Fu watered down into sport combat everywhere these days.

Meh what are you gonna do? There's still a lot of traditional schools that train traditionally and offer a regimen of traditional training. + for their topping, they add in the mma and grappling either through the teachers who undertake to learn those things or by bringing them in.

Round pegs don't go so well into square holes. I have no idea on why some people insist on trying to make it so. lol

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Sometimes I wonder why people sit around and complain about how this sucks and that sucks. If you think it sucks, simply don't train it. It's not that hard, but people make it that way. The human race is interesting in that we feel the need to control and instill our own beliefs into a complete stranger by means to control them. Just look at religion.:D

In the end people can and should do what they want to. I'm to the point anymore if someone wants sit in horse stance for ten years and throw crappy punches and speak bad chinese let them, because I assure you I do not care one way or the other. I don't see why we spend so much time trying to "save" someone who doesn't want to be saved. It's actually scary the similiarities that religion and martial arts have, isn't it?:eek:

[taai gihk yahn]

it's a good point about fighting vs. non-fighting as regards "gung fu" as a practice: if one is going to fight (be it in the ring , the street, as a bouncer, security guard or on the battlefield), then one needs must, as soon as possible, train in that context as close as one possibly can to "reality", whatever that may be (for example, a ring fighter and bodyguard both face pressure situations, but they will be very different, and even though both professions require fighting ability, the context within which that fighting occurs, and the way in which it occurs, and the task requirements for each will be very different); so I agree w Frost that as soon as possible, one should start drilling against resistance - a good recent example is my 6 y/o son, who started ice hockey 2 months ago - in his very first stick / puck clinic, they did drills where you had to try to get past someone and score (and this was a class for someone who had never held a stick before); and in his other class, the first day the coach was pushing him w his stick (very gently of course) while he was doing puck handling drills; the point is that from the outset, the context of relatively high levels of interference was being supported, which suggests that while one needs to practice skating and puck handling in their pure form, the reality is that in actual usage, the interference is so great that in a way it almost becomes a separate skill; similarly, I think that the argument about compliance vs non-compliance in fighting is very similar: training compliantly after all but a very basic period is not going to build fighting skill, because it lacks the critical context of resistance;
OTOH, David makes a valid point that "gung fu", in its totality, is not solely or necessarily about fighting (one can argue the truth of this, but the cultural context is as such, and as it developed in this milieu, the "non-combat" aspect is there and sufficient enough to warrant due consideration); personal cultivation / transformation as a basis for one's practice can therefore be approached with gung-fu as a vehicle (BTW, one could ALSO use fighting as a vehicle towards this as well, which is interesting in its own right); as such, one can cultivate "martial spirit" as a means by which one can approach the general challenge of life as such, and benefit greatly in terms of this - (as I say, if your practice, whatever it may be, helps you be less of an aszhole to your kids, it's well worth it...)

[sanjuro_ronin]

The fact of the matter is, for the poster this is NOT the school for him and he was right to leave it.
Anyone looking for a practial MA school and finds one that in 3 months doesn't do a sparring session, needs to find another school, period.
In short, he was right to leave THAT school because it didn't offer him what he wanted.

[Syn7]

SNY7


I totaly understand your pointand the reason is KUNG FU USA is a well known and branded name across america, taiwan and canada. we used to be called the America Chinese Martial arts federation but it was too long and didnt explian to the masses in American what we did, so many years ago we changed it to be simpler and friendly to kung fu usa. I keep it for name reacognition.

I only teach mantis and taiji at the complex. I have other teachers running the wrestling and BJJ, however the complex I am in is called Cobra Mixed martial arts academy so it rings to what you were suggesting. Its large complex that houses all 3 of these arsts and we alll split the costs. Our websites are linked together and mos of the students cross train in all 3 classes. hope this explianed you concern, thanks

not concerned, just curious... it sounded like you had a kung fu class and decided to bring other arts to your school... i didnt realise it was a collab... convenient tho... ive never heard of kung fu usa before seeing it in ur sig... guess you dont have schools near me...

[Lucas]

The fact of the matter is, for the poster this is NOT the school for him and he was right to leave it.
Anyone looking for a practial MA school and finds one that in 3 months doesn't do a sparring session, needs to find another school, period.
In short, he was right to leave THAT school because it didn't offer him what he wanted.

I agree completely. Not to take away from that school, the teacher, or the validity of either, they simply are offering something that the original poster is not seeking. very simple.

If you really want to study TCMA, and you really want to spar early on, find a traditional school that offers a sanshou/sanda program.

My personal opinion however though is that any school who spars consistantly and has a well structured plan of development is pretty traditional, in terms of being a fighting school. Regardless of additional trappings that may or may not be present.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I agree completely. Not to take away from that school, the teacher, or the validity of either, they simply are offering something that the original poster is not seeking. very simple.

If you really want to study TCMA, and you really want to spar early on, find a traditional school that offers a sanshou/sanda program.

My personal opinion however though is that any school who spars consistantly and has a well structured plan of development is pretty traditional, in terms of being a fighting school. Regardless of additional trappings that may or may not be present.

Anyone else find it sad that we have to rely on a certain specialized program of an art to be able to spar effectively. I mean, shouldn't all Kung Fu schools have a sparring program with their regular studies and not have to say "we have a sanshou program for that if you want to fight". I guess all martial arts are like this, but it goes to show how far the apple has fell from the tree.

[Lucas]

ya i agree with you. its pretty lame when you go places and sparring isnt offered as a general part of training there. unfortunately this is pretty common in cma schools...

I think all schools should spar, but they dont.

I think one of the biggest factors is your location.

The reason I mention having a sport fighting program mainly is because you are garanteed to get some action in and develop some applicable skills.

[SPJ]

syllabus or curriculum in writing

class schedules

class contents

functions and apps

--

goal setting

or criteria to pass each class or session

--

free spar or free play time or session

a good teacher or school will offer and tell their students or prospective students

what they will be doing, and what function or ability or skill they will be learning

what to expect after they finish each class or session

-

sparring session with what they learn in class

if not daily or may be weekly

what to learn in a month

in 2 month

in 3 month

--

etc etc.

students do not need to wait a few months to know what is going on.


we walk one step at a time

we also learn one move or one skill at a time

the progression of the class is dependent on the advancement from the student

---

if he does not pass A, he may not attend B

--

etc etc

:)

[YouKnowWho]

Try to ask the teacher the following questions on your 1st day. If you can't get a satisfied answer from that teacher, leave that school right away.

How to defense against a

- BJJ guy's jump/pull guard?
- Wrestler's leg shooting?
- SC/Judo guy's foot sweep?
- MT guy's roundhouse kick?
- TKD guy's side kick?
- Boxer's jab or hook punch?

Those are the prolems that everybody will have to face soon or later.

[lkfmdc]

Try to ask the teacher the following questions on your 1st day. If you can't get a satisfied answer from that teacher, leave that school right away.

How to defense against a

- BJJ guy's jump/pull guard?
- Wrestler's leg shooting?
- SC/Judo guy's foot sweep?
- MT guy's roundhouse kick?
- TKD guy's side kick?
- Boxer's jab or hook punch?

Those are the prolems that everybody will have to face soon or later.

Well, since I know the answers to all those, COME TO MY SCHOOL :D

[AdrianK]

You would be exposed to what lies ahead and you would come into possession of the texts you will use to get through. It is up to you to pay close attention. In four months, all planets aligned, you'll be fine. Like any learning environment. If you are missing a piece, you will experience a different outcome. If you enter with prejudice, your outcome is almost surely decided.

You're assuming he entered with prejudice, which is clearly not the case. He spent 3+ months there.




Are you suggesting college or university is neccesary to teach martial arts? I mean, yeah in China it is, but here? How about Navajo blanket making, or is it ok to be still in the realm of folk arts?

Nope, I'm suggesting that a formal education in your chosen profession would be beneficial.



I don't think I am in the minority, except maybe the little group you've decided to stuff me in. :)

Well you're wrong. Any teacher or dean from any legitimate university would tell you exactly what I'm telling you. A formal education in teaching is most of the time, essential, to be a teacher.




It's not teh exception to the rule, the reiterative learning experience has been around far longer than organized scholastic institutions.

You're right, it has been around longer than organized scholastic institutions. Because that is the reason organized scholastic institutions exist, because learning like that can work for some people, but fails many others. And the ones it didn't fail, could've learned it much quicker and more accurately, using the methods and ideas commonly used today.



However did we get by for all those thousands of years? lol. Teaching colleges are even more recent and the effort there is knowledge distribution, which has many beneficial offshoots, but again, what's that got to do with martial arts?

How did we get by for those thousands of years? I'm not saying no one can learn from an unqualified teacher, what I'm saying is that with a formal education, more people can learn from them, and all of their students can benefit from a more efficient, concise, and accurate learning experience. Otherwise, you can take the elitist attitude that whoever doesnt want to learn from you, didn't deserve it anyway. :rolleyes:



Of course they can be done together, I never suggested they couldn't, you assume again, but I don't for a second expect my boxing coach to have a teaching certificate or degree to teach me how to box anymore than I expect the same of my Kung Fu teacher or take your pick of the majority of those teaching martial arts out there in the world.

Why would you expect it? Because its not the norm. An education not only in teaching, but in anatomy, among other things, can be greatly beneficial to any teacher. Its almost laughable that many instructors have very little understanding of the human body.



it's really effective for academic studies and even applied studies, but bottom line is that martial arts is not a scholastic thing. It's global and it has a lot of shapes. Hence teacher student traditions, oral transmissions, physical transmissions etc etc etc that are not to be found in a textbook.

So then they shouldn't be? There's plenty of things that martial arts encompasses, that can only be found in a textbook. Medicine, Anatomy, Psychology, etc.




You live in teh same world as me? There are expectations to any society. Having a degree doesn't mean "qualified and experienced". It means, the door is open. A seasoned individual carries more value to any workplace or learning environment. Especially martial arts. Time in counts. A Lot.

I have a decade of work experience in the computer industry with plenty of certs to back it up. Yet even still, there's very few(if any) career opportunities for me without a bachelors degree, no one cares about the decade of experience.







If you are in the first grade, do you expect to learn more than the alphabet? And again, do you think that all of a sudden we are smarter as a species? We do that collaberatively, but in terms of martial arts, the old saying of "until we grow a new arm or leg..."

The point isn't evolved subject matter. The point is having the knowledge to engage and teach more students, teach them at a more efficient pace and make sure that what you're teaching them is put in the correct context and that they're actually learning it. Martial arts isn't just rehearsed movements, there's many concepts, ideas and applications behind each movement, form, etc.

Not to mention imparting the abilities like reading and understanding an opponent and their body language to either defuse the situation or handle it in a physical matter(psychology), the knowledge on how to handle a situation from a legal standpoint and what to expect(law), where to strike to effectively disable an opponent and what parts of your body to protect, as well as what to do in case you get hurt in those areas(anatomy, etc.)... To truly prepare your students, there's quite a bit of knowledge out there.

And frankly I find it utterly confusing that so many of the martial arts world is so afraid of formal education.

[Syn7]

doncha hate it when cats quote evry line you write and answer em one by one... thats why i dont even bother with HW... i couldnt be bothered to even capitalise and punctuate properly... i usually just pass em over and move on... or choose one point, and hammer at it for target practice... i dunno how anyone has the patience to do all that to talk with someone they are probably arguing with and dont even like... now dont get me wrong, i have done it before too... but like a handful of times ever and it was coz i actually cared to make the point... very rare tho...

im happy to stick with volitile, not hostile, one liners and obscure refrences that act as a call to arms for those that know better...

[Syn7]

Are you suggesting college or university is neccesary to teach martial arts? I mean, yeah in China it is, but here? How about Navajo blanket making, or is it ok to be still in the realm of folk arts?



Nope, I'm suggesting that a formal education in your chosen profession would be beneficial.


mos def beneficial... and if they are pushing medicine, it should be criminal without reasonable independant and peer reviewed evidence that the medicine works and some sort of certification from a real medical body, not a quackery association rooted in superstition and ignorant species ending practices that are absolutely and pathetically selfish beyond any hope of redemption in this life or the next...
i mean, unless they come right out and say they arent a doctor and there is no independant peer reviewed evidence to any of their claims and that they make sure the patient knows this and signs release forms to that effect...

yeah but if you wanna classify it as a folk art then you cant take it seriously in a clinical way... art is art... medicine and war is not art, despite the catchy phrase art of war... a misnomer forsure, but a good title none the less... strategy, tactics and the psychology of war is a more apt title and far more descriptive about what the book actually contains... and anyone who knows the book at all, knows that its not an art book ;)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

What I find laughable is those that look at college as being equal to real life scenerios. I can tell you as with most who went to college that the education you receive is good but you will probably use very little of what you learned in college to do your actual job once you get out. College professors love to spout on and on about the real world yet they themselves have spent thirty years teaching at a university and don't know the first thing about how the "real world" actually works.

Colleges and universities used to be about higher education, now they are about charging ridiculous fees to young people in hopes of that piece of paper they get promising them a better job and better life. Business, especially that of a capitalistic society, has one goal, to make money. Places of higher education are no different and I find it laughable that there are those so gullible to believe that the definitive education one can receive is through them.

[David Jamieson]

Well AdrianK, I find your opinion and view of teaching martial arts to be stuffy and far to formal. I don't think that teaching colleges or pedagogical institutions are necessary to transmission of art forms and really, never have been.

They are there for the most part for academic studies, which martial arts is not and cannot be transmitted via really in any effective manner.

So, I can appreciate your idea that you think martial arts teachers should have a background in formal educational processes, but I disagree because of the specificity of any given martial art. There simply is no academic institution that can speak further to the transmission of a given art form. It is what it is.

Any martial arts teacher who has been given the privilege of representing and instructing his system has more than likely been well versed on how to transmit it to the student. There may be a tip or two that he could use from the teaching to teach ideas, but, there are equally as many teachers out their in formal institutions who could use some real life experience.

:)

[ginosifu]

AdrianK:

I disagree with the statement that everyone needs to have a college education in teaching to teach Kung Fu. The only people who need this type of education are professors.

Yes there is a need to know how to teach to some degree, however passion to teach, kung fu knowledge and years learning from your teacher is plenty.

While a beginning kung fu teacher I learned the ins and outs of teaching. I learned there are different types of students as well as different types of teachers. Not everyone learns the same way, some people are visual learners, some are book and reading types, some need hands on etc etc.

You don't need a college degree, you need time and energy (kung fu), to develop the teacher that you are !

ginosifu

[David Jamieson]

This place needs a "like" button, because I liked that Gino. :p

[ginosifu]

This place needs a "like" button, because I liked that Gino. :p

thank you david

[AdrianK]

What I find laughable is those that look at college as being equal to real life scenerios.

Its not a matter of education being equal to experience. Whether it is or not is irrelevant. Can you learn almost everything by experience alone? Given the right circumstances and ability, absolutely. But you learn it much quicker and gain a more complete knowledge of things with a formal education or even by studying on your own.



I can tell you as with most who went to college that the education you receive is good but you will probably use very little of what you learned in college to do your actual job once you get out.

Way to generalize. So very little of what is learned in college/uni is applicable to the fields of say, law? Or how about medicine? Thats complete crap. :| Please, name some professions where a formal education wouldn't be applicable.



College professors love to spout on and on about the real world yet they themselves have spent thirty years teaching at a university and don't know the first thing about how the "real world" actually works.

Thats neither here nor there, the knowledge you gain is designed to prepare you for the real world. Could you learn all you needed to, on the job? Sure. But at a much slower pace with a much higher margin of error. In medicine this can be deadly, in law this can ruin someones life. And in martial arts, it can be both, on top of wasting a person's time and money.



Colleges and universities used to be about higher education, now they are about charging ridiculous fees to young people in hopes of that piece of paper they get promising them a better job and better life.

Our economy has put less value on a formal education, you're no longer guaranteed a profession, but make no mistake, while a degree may mean a 50% chance at a chosen profession, no degree means 0% chance at most careers.



Business, especially that of a capitalistic society, has one goal, to make money. Places of higher education are no different and I find it laughable that there are those so gullible to believe that the definitive education one can receive is through them.

Regardless of you feeling that way, the truth is that a definitive education is the only way most careers can be obtained.


But again, neither here nor there, we're getting into a completely different discussion. The main discussion has been about whether an education in teaching can significantly improve your ability to teach, in a general sense. Not you personally, not your teacher personally, but generally.

[AdrianK]

Well AdrianK, I find your opinion and view of teaching martial arts to be stuffy and far to formal.
I don't think that teaching colleges or pedagogical institutions are necessary to transmission of art forms and really, never have been.

You're talking about martial arts as art forms. Martial arts encompasses health and fitness, art, self defense, psychology, physics, history and in some cases, especially with TCMA, medicine.



They are there for the most part for academic studies, which martial arts is not and cannot be transmitted via really in any effective manner.

Thats complete crap, crap crap crap. It sounds like you have a superficial understanding of martial arts. No scientific method, no intellectual understanding of what you do. Wow, cool dude.



So, I can appreciate your idea that you think martial arts teachers should have a background in formal educational processes, but I disagree because of the specificity of any given martial art. There simply is no academic institution that can speak further to the transmission of a given art form. It is what it is.

Not at all. Martial arts for fighting or self defense involves an undertanding of anatomy, health & fitness, psychology and physics.



Any martial arts teacher who has been given the privilege of representing and instructing his system has more than likely been well versed on how to transmit it to the student.

Based on what? The cultist mentality prevalent in many major organizations? :rolleyes:



There may be a tip or two that he could use from the teaching to teach ideas, but, there are equally as many teachers out their in formal institutions who could use some real life experience.

Many teachers in formal institutions, do have life experience. But even with the general knowledge base to pass on to their students, their students are far better prepared in their chosen profession by the time they go out and get that experience. In the context of martial arts though, you can simultaneously get real life experience while absorbing the knowledge base relating to your path.

[AdrianK]

thank you david

Ahhhh, the martial arts circle jerk, all you need to feel good about yourself is a little positive reinforcement from someone just as clueless as yourself. :D

[AdrianK]

I should clear this up a bit. I'm not saying everyones a terrible teacher because they don't have an education in teaching. I'm saying they could benefit from an education. Most people could benefit greatly from one.

[SPJ]

to make your kung fu or ma practical

that would be use simple, direct or straightforward methods.

fast and direct.

the circuitous or more complicated moves, the success rate is low or difficult to pull.

:)

[mooyingmantis]

AdrianK,
You bring up some good points. I believe that MA instructors should have some type of training in teaching methods. Both my wife and I have worked in the field of education. She works in the public school system, while my work has been in religious junior colleges.

Some martial arts instruction I have seen is laughable at best. Incorrect knowledge of anatomy, no training in the original language, poor people skills, lack of marketing strategies, etc..

However, MA is a skill set, not an intellectual study. I liken it more to an apprenticeship rather than a classroom mode of learning.

Learning MA is not like learning or practicing medicine. It is more like learning to weld. One can have a strong grasp of welding theory, metallurgy, gases, etc., yet still be unable to form a use-able bead. While another can weld nearly any material without any classroom understanding of the art due to a hands on mastery of or "feel" for welding.

Those who teach MA should stick strictly to the MA skill set if they do not have some type of formal training in the ancillary practices often associated with MA practice (acupuncture, herbalism, anatomy and physiology).

However, to bar those without a formal education in teaching from instructing MA skills is a bit overboard in my opinion.

I think a greater issue we must face in MA schools is the erroneous idea that because one can Do, one should Teach. Not every student that masters the skill set will be appropriate to teach it. If instructors will grasp this concept, MA instruction will improve radically.

[SPJ]

Keep it simple and straightforward or K I S S.

We do not need to know how to build a car to drive a car.

We do not need to know all of the names of the muscles to punch, kick, push, pull, grab, and throw.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

AdrianK,
You bring up some good points. I believe that MA instructors should have some type of training in teaching methods. Both my wife and I have worked in the field of education. She works in the public school system, while my work has been in religious junior colleges.

Some martial arts instruction I have seen is laughable at best. Incorrect knowledge of anatomy, no training in the original language, poor people skills, lack of marketing strategies, etc..

However, MA is a skill set, not an intellectual study. I liken it more to an apprenticeship rather than a classroom mode of learning.

Learning MA is not like learning or practicing medicine. It is more like learning to weld. One can have a strong grasp of welding theory, metallurgy, gases, etc., yet still be unable to form a use-able bead. While another can weld nearly any material without any classroom understanding of the art due to a hands on mastery of or "feel" for welding.

Those who teach MA should stick strictly to the MA skill set if they do not have some type of formal training in the ancillary practices often associated with MA practice (acupuncture, herbalism, anatomy and physiology).

However, to bar those without a formal education in teaching from instructing MA skills is a bit overboard in my opinion.

I think a greater issue we must face in MA schools is the erroneous idea that because one can Do, one should Teach. Not every student that masters the skill set will be appropriate to teach it. If instructors will grasp this concept, MA instruction will improve radically.


You and I may not agree on a lot of things, but this is spot on. More of that circle jerk feel good sh**it I guess.:D

[ginosifu]

I should clear this up a bit. I'm not saying everyones a terrible teacher because they don't have an education in teaching. I'm saying they could benefit from an education. Most people could benefit greatly from one.

Let me clear this is up. Everyone can benefit from going to school or college. Anyone can benefit from an eduation in how become a good teacher.

For strictly Kung Fu teaching, it is not needed and probably a waste of time for most people.

For other arts such as TCM or Physics, you need a formal education in these arts. Do you need an education in teaching to teach these? I am not qualified to say.

AdrianK are probably not good at kung fu and not a full time kung fu teacher. The way you speak is that you don't have an idea about time management. Kung Fu peeps put all their time into training. If I was to use my free time to go take a 2 or 4 year course at the local college, I would be focusing on academics instead of training. I am not where I am today because I spent all my time at a college. I spent my early training years almost 8 hours a day everyday training and learning how to teach from my teacher. This was my day:

Wake up 3:30AM
Get to kung Fu school by 4AM
Train until 6:30AM in Tai Chi, Chi Gung and Iron Palm.
Get to work by 7AM
Leave work 3:30PM and get to kung fu school by 4PM
Train from 4PM until 9PM

Where do you see time for college. Kung Fu peeps put their time and energy into their art. Teaching is a on the job learned skill. I have been teaching and training in kung fu for over 20 years. I don't feel that i would have been any better with a teaching course.

AdrianK: I do not take kindly to the circle jerk joke... I am not kidding nor am I joking around. I am serious about what I am doing. Please don't hide behind your computer screen and be disrespectful.

ginosifu

ps.

On a side note. I have parents, Elementary school teachers and school psycologists asking me for advise on behavioral problems with children. They all want to know how I have them doing what ever I ask of them, when they have no control over them in their environments. I have no formal education but over the years I have had "ON THE JOB TRAINING"

[SoCo KungFu]

AdrianK,
You bring up some good points. I believe that MA instructors should have some type of training in teaching methods. Both my wife and I have worked in the field of education. She works in the public school system, while my work has been in religious junior colleges.

Some martial arts instruction I have seen is laughable at best. Incorrect knowledge of anatomy, no training in the original language, poor people skills, lack of marketing strategies, etc..

However, MA is a skill set, not an intellectual study. I liken it more to an apprenticeship rather than a classroom mode of learning.

Learning MA is not like learning or practicing medicine. It is more like learning to weld. One can have a strong grasp of welding theory, metallurgy, gases, etc., yet still be unable to form a use-able bead. While another can weld nearly any material without any classroom understanding of the art due to a hands on mastery of or "feel" for welding.

Those who teach MA should stick strictly to the MA skill set if they do not have some type of formal training in the ancillary practices often associated with MA practice (acupuncture, herbalism, anatomy and physiology).

However, to bar those without a formal education in teaching from instructing MA skills is a bit overboard in my opinion.

I think a greater issue we must face in MA schools is the erroneous idea that because one can Do, one should Teach. Not every student that masters the skill set will be appropriate to teach it. If instructors will grasp this concept, MA instruction will improve radically.

I agree with this post. I definitely agree anyone not trained in sciences should strike them completely from their teaching mechanisms. Its embarrassing when an instructor starts trying to overlap TCM theory with modern A&P to make the info "fit" only to have it come out totally disjointed due to lack of grasp in either area.

Martial arts aren't a difficult thing. That's why anyone can do it. Teaching isn't for everyone. But the funny thing about it is, if you actually take the time to train correctly and have actually tested your material, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to at least impart that from your first hand experience. The problem is when teachers forget that part (or never went through it) and thus never grant students that experience. Teachers should teach and students must learn first hand (sparring, competing, testing in some fashion). That's the problem. You don't need to know every theory of 12 keys in mantis to be able to grab and punch. You just need to have done it and repeated it over and over. Not to beat on it, but this is why even with someone with only a few months experience in most MMA gyms really have little trouble in at least coaching newbies on what they're limited 4 months experience has granted them. They might not know a whole lot, but because of the training practices what they do know they know well. And can usually impart that info by allowing the newbie to do it themselves. This is why sparring regularly early in training is a good thing. Again learning through first hand experience. Like a welder picking up a torch the first time.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Keep it simple and straightforward or K I S S.

We do not need to know how to build a car to drive a car.

We do not need to know all of the names of the muscles to punch, kick, push, pull, grab, and throw.

But it wouldn't hurt.
Knowing how a physical activity is done and knowing the best way to do it can only help your teaching ability.
I've had teachers that just said, "do it like this" and have had teachers that explain the body mechanics of why doing it liek this is the best way to do it.
Those teachers bring the art to life and make the student not only a better student, but make him a getter teacher in the process.

[ginosifu]

Knowing how a physical activity is done and knowing the best way to do it can only help your teaching ability.
I've had teachers that just said, "do it like this" and have had teachers that explain the body mechanics of why doing it like this is the best way to do it.
Those teachers bring the art to life and make the student not only a better student, but make him a getter teacher in the process.

Sanjuro makes a good point, however this may not be the same thing as going to school to become a better teacher. This sounds a bit more like the depth of knowledge of the teacher. Depending on what information your teacher gave you will be the amount info you have to pass on. Example:

If your teacher passed on a full curriculum of anatomy to you. You would be able to explain the mechanics of each movement. This is not learning how to teach, this is depth of knowledge.

I also agree we need to bring the "Art to Life"

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

if you teach, especially to the public, you need to be articulate, otherwise you come off sounding like Kempoisbest. No one wants to study under an idiot. (sorry, no matter how intelligent you may be, if you can only speak like street thug with a third grade education, you WILL STILL come off like an idiot.) A good solid education is critical.

well, unless you speak with a heavy Asian accent. Then you could pull it off...

[SPJ]

well, unless you speak with a heavy Asian accent. Then you could pull it off...

my mantis teachers had strong shan dong accents.

my ba ji teachers had strong he bei accent.

my ba gua teachers had bei jing and tian jing accents.

--

me taiwanese/ ho kien accent

--

:)

[mooyingmantis]

Marbas,

The emphasis in my school is self-defense. The first class covers:

1. The proper way to make a fist.
2. The proper way to do the first kick.
3. The first hand drill taught in our system (gou lou cai). This is trained with a partner, with focus mitts and on the wooden dummy. All in the first class.

This unfortunately was not how I was taught four decades ago when I started learning martial arts. Six months of stances followed by forms, forms, forms plus applications was the norm.

Fortunately, many instructors today skip a lot of the filler and move straight to the meat and potatoes. I feel a personal responsibility to give my students the most information that they can learn to use in the shortest time. However, that doesn't mean forms are not involved in our curriculum. I am probably one of the biggest "form faeries" left in traditional CMA, ask Ginosifu. :) However, our forms have the "bite" of hours of drilling and sparring using the movements and theories found within the forms.

We throw punches in the air to perfect proper form. We hit focus mitts and the wooden dummy to develop distance, timing and power. And we beat on each other to toughen our minds and bodies, and train our movements in a way that promotes thinking outside the forms (spontaneity).

It is not my goal to turn everyone of my students into the next "Billy BAD A S S" in the ring, or to train every student to teach, but EVERY student should be able to adequately defend themselves in a fist fight within three months. After that students continue for the love of the art.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Kung Fu is no different from other martial arts in the sense that some people train for sport combat, some for self defense, and some strictly for health.

Go to a boxing gym and I almost guarantee not everyone there is training for a fight. Same with a Muay Thai or kickboxing gym. Even in BJJ, Judo, or Sub Wrestling you will find some who do not compete. The thing about grappling arts and why they have more competitors is because you don't take the abuse you do in striking arts, which makes people more apt to compete.

In the end it comes down to what the person wants. If someone wants to go through the routines and just get in shape but doesn't want to spar or fight, that's ok, as long as it is explained to them that this is a must for applying the art they are learning when it matters in a fight.

Personally, I would like to see a rise in Sanda and Shuai Jiao competition and less emphasis on forms competition coming from Kung Fu schools and organizations. I think this would go a long way in reestablishing TCMA as the fighting arts they were meant to be and get more recognition. But that is my wish and my opinion.

[KC Elbows]

You people do realize this is a troll thread, right?

[EarthDragon]

KC

u people do realize this is a troll thread, right?

LOL is this another fake screen name from a visitor from the banned side perhaps?
I was thinking that in he beginning but who puts this much time and effot into trolling?

it reminds me of the guy who sits and invents computer viruses.... why spend so much time being unproductive and a waste of soceity?

[AdrianK]

it reminds me of the guy who sits and invents computer viruses.... why spend so much time being unproductive and a waste of soceity?

There are people who make a solid(and in some countries, a ridiculous) living off of it, funny enough. Make a good enough virus and you can net yourself some incredible money.

[David Jamieson]

There are people who make a solid(and in some countries, a ridiculous) living off of it, funny enough. Make a good enough virus and you can net yourself some incredible money.

This is true. The tree that doesn't bend in the wind, breaks.

[KC Elbows]

They spend so long trolling because wing chun is the psycho ex-girlfriend who did unspeakable things to them. They'll tell you that they hate that ***** while they drive by her house in repetitive circles, crying into their appletinis about how good it felt while they were doing it and noting in a little yellow notepad that she cut her hair shorter and lost some weight.

[EarthDragon]

adrian K

There are people who make a solid(and in some countries, a ridiculous) living off of it, funny enough. Make a good enough virus and you can net yourself some incredible money.

So F'in what? drug dealers and kiddy porn sellers make lots of money as well but theri still scumbags. money is the root you know. peopel can make money doing anythng they want, doesnt mean you have to be a dirt bag to make it, and you dont have to be a troll to **** people off either. not saying you are but your posts are counter productive and this raises red troll flags. be well

[AdrianK]

adrian K


So F'in what? drug dealers and kiddy porn sellers make lots of money as well but theri still scumbags. money is the root you know. peopel can make money doing anythng they want, doesnt mean you have to be a dirt bag to make it, and you dont have to be a troll to **** people off either. not saying you are but your posts are counter productive and this raises red troll flags. be well

Way to completely miss the point. :rolleyes: You see my post as trolling only because your reading comprehension skills are poor.

My posts are counter-productive? To what exactly? Its a discussion forum where we engage in discussion. You presented a point, I presented a response because your assertion was that the people creating viruses were doing it only to cause problems, and they're not. Nowadays its mainly an organized criminal industry.

So from my point of view, my posts are very productive, as I've just had the pleasure of educating you. =)


Furthermore, if my posts **** people off because they don't agree with me, they need to grow the hell up. The whole of the martial arts world is suffering because of a worldwide circle jerk because of a fear of confrontation. Cool. I'm not gonna fall in line with your views just because they represent a little group you've got going on. I'm going to present mine and you're free to discuss them with me. If you don't like it, too **** bad. If the mods don't like it and ban me for it, then its obviously not the place for me. But so far, I've gotten no complaints.

[Syn7]

dont you hate how **** **** **** **** ***** ***** etc. etc. are starred out when they arent such bad words and all have non derogatory meaning... and in some cases are the root of bigger words or other words have the same letters in series within them and part of a normal word will be starred out... you see that alot with **** and ****... and its esspecially annoying with anthropological terms...:mad:

[David Jamieson]

dont you hate how **** **** **** **** ***** ***** etc. etc. are starred out when they arent such bad words and all have non derogatory meaning... and in some cases are the root of bigger words or other words have the same letters in series within them and part of a normal word will be starred out... you see that alot with **** and ****... and its esspecially annoying with anthropological terms...:mad:

If you really need them in context to any earth changing post you might make while here, you will find a bypass to make your words. :p

[EarthDragon]

You see my post as trolling only because your reading comprehension skills are poor.
nope me read real good. Its just some of the things you say can be considered trollish, however I am glad thier not. We have enough of them on here already.
carry on

[AdrianK]

geeks create viruses not the mob, and enlighten us on how one makes money creating viruses.

:rolleyes:

http://www.identitytheftlabs.com/identity-theft/russian-mafia-steals-500000-bank-and-credit-accounts/

http://www.netwatch.net/news3.html


Just a couple off the top.

The most prevalent viruses are ones that compromise your computer without your knowledge. This leads to all sorts of identity theft. Its a massive criminal industry, always has been, and nowadays its childs play for literally anyone to do it.

That being said, there's plenty of government funded cyberwarfare from all over the world.


Anyways, one of the more recent viruses is one that encrypts your data and forces you to pay to decrypt it.

Its a big industry thats only growing.


Its rather funny you had to be so arrogant in challenging this point, because now it seems like either you're the one trolling, or you're simply making an assertion on something you obviously have no understanding of.

That being said, I'd honestly respect you more if it was the former, than the latter. I really can't stand people who form such strong opinions about something they know nothing about. :D

[Lucas]

dont you hate how **** **** **** **** ***** ***** etc. Etc. Are starred out when they arent such bad words and all have non derogatory meaning... And in some cases are the root of bigger words or other words have the same letters in series within them and part of a normal word will be starred out... You see that alot with **** and ****... And its esspecially annoying with anthropological terms...:mad:

**** **** **** **** ***** ***** ***. ***** *** ********* ****!!!!!!

**** **, ****** **** ** **************, ****** ***. ;)

[EarthDragon]

Adrian K

Its rather funny you had to be so arrogant in challenging this point, because now it seems like either you're the one trolling, or you're simply making an assertion on something you obviously have no understanding of.

didnt think I came across as arrogant, sorry about that if i did. But you are correct I didnt understand why people makes viruses and didnt know it was a business, therefore I asked you and you answered thank you.

Im old brother and have little understanding of computers. we had 1 DOS in high school when i graduated in the 80's so i dont know squat. LOL i do get viruses so i wish these kids would find another job:)

[David Jamieson]

You could download and manage your own antivirus software free too.

There's a few good choices out there that offer free anti virus and good clean-up software as well like malwarebytes.org for clean up software when you have a virus already and avast.com, free.avg.com, kaspersky.com, and others.

Make sure you only have one installed and running at any one time and as long as you keep the definitions updated and a restore point that's recent on your system , you should be fine for the most part of what scripts are out there.

[AdrianK]

Adrian K


didnt think I came across as arrogant, sorry about that if i did. But you are correct I didnt understand why people makes viruses and didnt know it was a business, therefore I asked you and you answered thank you.

Im old brother and have little understanding of computers. we had 1 DOS in high school when i graduated in the 80's so i dont know squat. LOL i do get viruses so i wish these kids would find another job:)

lol, no worries man.

[EarthDragon]

I'm still amazed that phones dont have cords anymore and your signal goes to outerspace and back.

I tried to explain to my newphew that when I was his age and you wanted to call someone outside of your city an operator had to phsyically connected your phone line to another line with a plug...... he couldt believe it...

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Adrian K


didnt think I came across as arrogant, sorry about that if i did. But you are correct I didnt understand why people makes viruses and didnt know it was a business, therefore I asked you and you answered thank you.

Im old brother and have little understanding of computers. we had 1 DOS in high school when i graduated in the 80's so i dont know squat. LOL i do get viruses so i wish these kids would find another job:)

Stop downloading so much porn, man, you won't have that problem!:p

[Lucas]

most isp offer a virus protection software as part of the isp package. for instance i have comcast and get full norton package. constantly updated live, and even tells me if a web site is safe or not before I go to it.

[TenTigers]

I'm still amazed that phones dont have cords anymore and your signal goes to outerspace and back.

I tried to explain to my newphew that when I was his age and you wanted to call someone outside of your city an operator had to phsyically connected your phone line to another line with a plug...... he couldt believe it...
yeah, it's getting harder and harder to strangle your GF with a phone cord...
You would think that this technology would cross over and develop better wireless guitar set-ups.

[Syn7]

most isp offer a virus protection software as part of the isp package. for instance i have comcast and get full norton package. constantly updated live, and even tells me if a web site is safe or not before I go to it.

sometimes thats just not enough unfortunately.... but what more can you do without wasting a bunch of money and time...


i used to always wonder why my cpu would spike for no reason... youd know something was going on but couldnt find out what it was... that sh!t used to drive me nuttz... its just not an issue for me anymore... i have reasonable protection, im backed up well enough... worst case scenario i`ll just dump it all and start fresh...