Tan Tui questions

[TopCrusader]

While reading about the history of Tan Tui, I ran across the idea that Tan Tui is a common form and also a style unto itself? Possibly of Muslim origin?

Does anybody know more about the idea/history of Tan Tui being a style onto itself? Seems like it would have to be multiple forms or very long forms later combined into one if earlier it was its own style.

Also, I saw a list where "Tam Tuei" (Im assuming another way of saying Tan Tui) is listed, and further down the list "Springing Leg" is also listed. What confuses me, is I thought springing legs was the English way of saying Tam Tui.

Here is what I mean:
（7）潭腿门（TAM TUEI）

（9）弹腿门（SPRINGING LEG）


So, my question is what is the difference? Does one refer to the style and the other refer to the form?
Thanks


Source:
http://www.jieqdao.cn/jiequandaozongshu/200810/20-37.html

[YouKnowWho]

弹腿(Tsan Tui) is one of the Longfist brenches besides 查(Zha), 花(Hua), 洪(Hong), and 炮(Pao). I believe Tan Tui is the only form in the Tan family. Many Longfist guys cross train all brenches.

[RenDaHai]

On TanTuiMen

Tan Tui is indeed a complete style unto itself.

Like many wushu styles in china it is not of muslim origin, however it is largely passed down within muslim communities. Being a minority they have to protect themselves and so have a history of passing down very effective martial arts. Few of the arts are of muslim origin, although many of the best masters are often muslim.

Tan has two name variations, one meaning 'pond, pool' , the other meaning flick, spring.

Originally it is from 'Long Tan Si' or 'The Temple of the Dragon Pool'. So it is called Tan Tui, 'The leg of Long Tan Temple'. Off course in chinese Tan (pool) and Tan (flick) are pronounced similar, and when you look at it it contains a lot of leg flicking action, so the name gradually got changed to Tan (flick). Although both variations are still common.

It bears close relation to the classic longfist (Hong, Pao, Hua, Zha) styles and is often practiced with them together.

The Tan Tui is often practiced as 12 short sequences done going one way and back the other. There is huge variation around china, although they are all kind of similar. In its history it was a kicking style mixed with shaolin luohan quan and became a new routine.

But Tantui doesn't just contain the 12 roads (sometimes 10, 16, 24 etc). It also has regular forms. Often these extra forms are refferred to as being of 'Tantuimen' or 'ER LANG MEN'. They are also generally considered to be Shaolinesque. ('Er Lang' is a powerful god in chinese mythology).

Er Lang men contains a huge amount of forms. It looks very similar to standard longfist (Zha, HOng, Hua, Pao).

Interestingly many of the standard fist forms of JING WU (Chin woo athletic association) are of Er Lang Men. Forms include the Shaolin Battle sets, ZHAN QUAN (distantly related to shaolin, many shaolin techniques). Jie quan, Shaolin Gong Li quan and many others. These sets are quite well known in the west. They can be said to be TanTuiMen (Men is short for MenPai which means a style, type, brand, sect).

[bawang]

tan tui is remnant of extinct older chinese kung fu training where there was no set choreographed forms called "freestyle training"

[RenDaHai]

Hey Bawang,

Typically Chinese Kung Fu was split into 3 categories;

Civilian, Ascetic and Military.

Most of the military styles actually contain no forms. They just contain moves.

Examples are Some versions of Tantui, XinYi, XinYiLiuHe, XingYi, PiGua, TongBei, Bashanfan (FanZi, many variations), Chuojiao, Baji, Jingang Bashi, Pao quan (some versions)........

Although all of these styles have variations that contain Taolu, the larger number just contain the individual moves drilled in lines and while striking something/one. These styles also represent the main body of wushu technique.

[bawang]

traditionally chinese martial arts is divided into three groups: effective, too complicated, flowery. there is no such thing as "civilian" martial arts

[David Jamieson]

traditionally chinese martial arts is divided into three groups: effective, too complicated, flowery. there is no such thing as "civilian" martial arts

There is no such thing as only one way and no change. lol

Yes there are civilian martial arts. They are the martial arts that all the civilians are practicing daily in the kwoons and dojos and dojangs and gyms. They are not military, they are not police, they are regular people doing martial arts and therefore are civilian.

There is no one definitive text regarding chinese martial arts. It is all bits and pieces and voids that have been lost to time or to the structure of teacher/student oral transmission tradition.

Chinese martial arts are in a state of constant flux and change. You are referencing one text alone from a particular era with a military perspective that may have been reiterated through time but is not necessarily the be all and end all of it. :)

[bawang]

There is no one definitive text regarding chinese martial arts. It is all bits and pieces and voids that have been lost to time or to the structure of teacher/student oral transmission tradition.

new miltiary strategy is over 1000 pages . wu bei zhi is 240 chapters....


Chinese martial arts are in a state of constant flux and change.
comparing northern martial arts and the old texts, its been unchanged for over 500 years.


You are referencing one text alone from a particular era with a military perspective that may have been reiterated through time but is not necessarily the be all and end all of it.

im referencing famous generals in history who saved china. they gave open critisicm of chinese martial arts.

so called "artistic" "civilian" "aesthetic" martial arts caused many humiliating military defeats:
"thousands running before hundreds"
"calling out to mothers and fathers"
"being chopped in half"
"so badly trained they cower on the ground in fetal position when they hear the cannon"

quoting general qijiguang "this job of killing people, is it supposed to look good?"
"you want to see a military drill, or a circus show?"

[RenDaHai]

No, Its nothing official, its a basic classification we use when we talk about styles of kung fu. With most teachers I've had in china when we talk about martial arts we talk about them as being one of the three major classifications. Its a loose definition but sums things up well enough.

Because typically MA fit into one of three categories;

1.Civilian/Police/Personal contains lots of defense techniques, many restraints, typically complicated ugly dictionary like forms. Used by police restraining people, people scuffling and wrestling , street fighting, requires intermediate training time. Typical examples would be; Mantis, WingChun (Bawang these are your 'TOO COMPLICATED')

2.Ascetic, for self realization/ health. Contains very difficult very beautiful abstract forms. The focus of training is on goals other than straight combat, although off course that features. Lots of abstract training. requires very long training time. Typical examples include Shaolin, Wudang, Emei, Taiji, etc (Bawang these are your FLOWERY)

3.Military, Only to kill the opponent as quickly as possible. Typically no forms, just individual techniques drilled with a partener, alone or against a tree or similar object. Contains mainly attacks, only moving foreward. Generally in attack starting from non contact. Very simple, requires very short training time. Typical styles include XinYi, Chuojiao, Pigua,... (Bawang these are your 'EFFECTIVE').


In relation to this thread TAN TUI was originally a larger style created by high level masters combining their systems. A military variation was created which is the typical 10/12 roads tantui. Simple, easy to learn, useful.

Oh and Ascetic is NOT Aesthetic!! Although they do look good. Ascetic refers to them being practiced by Monks and hermits.

[bawang]

civilian practioners were caravan guards called cash runners. on the northern roads half return alive. it must be effective or they die.
asthetic martial arts must be effective. its common for bandits to kill entire temples and use it as a base.


im bring out proof, evidence, documents, all that sh1t. i win internet kung fu argument. i have defecate you.

[SPJ]

Does anybody know more about the idea/history of Tan Tui being a style onto itself?

there were northern invaders. they were tall and strong and on horse back. thus fortress or city walls were built to stop calvary.

since the northern tribes were also good at wrestling with long arms.

the weak and short arm Chinese had to do something about it.

the use of long legs to sweep or fight was invented to pre empt close contact and wrestling.

there were also weapons and shields developed to stop the horse or strike horse legs and shields against long and arched sabers northern tribes used.

--

[bawang]

spj you are a big dum dum. northern chinese are huge. just because taiwanese are short and weak doesnt mean real chinese brothers are weak.

[SPJ]

I merely pointed out tan tui was invented by a chinese general

and fight against northern tribes

[bawang]

you call your own chinese people short and weak when the chinese army used to use swords over 2 meter long and 1 inch thick.
minimum height of imperial guard is six feet tall. SIX FEET TALL DIDI U READ THAT

U HAVE NO HONOR U R NOT A REAL CHILESE IM ASHAME OF U TO CALL CHINES AND D OCHILSE MARTIAL TTSA OK? I NO LIKE YOU

WHEN R U GONA MAKE A REAL VIDEO ON UR UTUBE INSDTEAD OF STOPMOTION PICTURS OK

[SPJ]

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTE2Mzk3NTUy.html

watch this.

[RenDaHai]

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTE2Mzk3NTUy.html

watch this.

Yeah, this explains TanTuiMen well,

They even go to the location of LongTan Temple.... Although there is nothing left anymore.

[SPJ]

WHEN R U GONA MAKE A REAL VIDEO ON UR UTUBE INSDTEAD OF STOPMOTION PICTURS OK

I would rather post video about mountain and water.

wiseman find content/happiness in mountain and water

zi zhe yao shan, zi zhe yao shui.

my heart died in 1991, when my fav singing idol became a buddhist nun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZs8xBD5V7I&feature=related

while the rest of world lives on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUqm8fauge4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZPBIcO_BXA&feature=related

:(

[David Jamieson]

It's the beige doll.

[huirebel]

Hi Top Crusader,

The complete name of Tan Tui is Jiaomen Tan Tui, which means Religious Islamic Springing Legs.

It is important to note that the Muslims in China , known as the Hui, have contributed greatly to the development of the martial arts, over the years.
Some of the forms that they have developed is Zha-Quan (Shadow Fist), Tong Bei (Bronze Shield), and of course, Tan Tui to name a few.

A few of the famous Hui practitioners are:
Wang Zi Ping
Ma Xianda
Zhang Shao Fu


Tan Tui is a system that emphasises high kicks above the waist. You will also see the use of the vertical fist quite frequently. Every movement of the body represents a letter of the Arabic alphabet.


At present our school here in Cape Town, South Africa is the only school that practises Tan Tui the way it is practised by the Hui.I have only managed to learn 1 taolu of this so far.

To my knowledge, which is not much, the Jing Woo association is the only organisation that saw it fit to include this as part of their curriculum. It is also forms part of their event list at their competitions.


Tam Tui is slighly different but is based on Tan Tui. The story goes, as my teacher tells it, when Tan Tui began to take prominence amongst the Hui, the monks at a nearby temple came to here of this. They then proceeded to the village and watched the Hui practise this. As the monks were quite impressed with what they saw, they then went back to their temple and incoporated it into the foundation of their training. One change they did make was to restrict the kicking to waist level instead of above the waist.

For a small introduction on the Hui and the Tan Tui, check out: http://www.mjliwushu.com/hui_contribution.html

Hope this helps. :)

[TopCrusader]

Excellent answers, thank you all!

[danMilwaukee]

Can anyone tell me which version of Tan Tui did Grandmaster Chian Ho Yin teach. I can't find any videos that resemble his version online at all.

[Syn7]

I would rather post video about mountain and water.

wiseman find content/happiness in mountain and water

zi zhe yao shan, zi zhe yao shui.

my heart died in 1991, when my fav singing idol became a buddhist nun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZs8xBD5V7I&feature=related

while the rest of world lives on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUqm8fauge4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZPBIcO_BXA&feature=related

:(


whats her name, i cant read it.... never seen her in my life... she kinda cute tho...

[IronWeasel]

. Every movement of the body represents a letter of the Arabic alphabet.




I've never heard that before.

Do you have any references that might illustrate the various alphabet positions?

Thanks.

[bawang]

the hui also say their kung fu was directly passed down from muhammed.
just sayin

[SPJ]

whats her name, i cant read it.... never seen her in my life... she kinda cute tho...

the first vid is from Liu Lan Xi.

She became a nun and works for Da Lai La Ma.

the 2nd and 3 rd vid are examples for another singer from about the same time.

she continued to have a singing career.

once you became a nun or monk, you just disappear from any form of public life.

seclusion from the rest of the world.

---

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8OB9EpS6zA

nana is a greek singer with a very long singing period.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASO51pNQp60

she was in her 70s and sang a chinese pop song.

back to regular discussion about spring or bouncy leg.

:)

[MightyB]

hmmm...

I honestly don't like Sub E Lo Tan Tui (my Cantonese phonetic spelling is terrible). I think it's over rated as a line drill. Luckily I come from a LGY / WHF / CHY / H C mantis line and I got to learn LGY's created form Sub Sa Lo. It's a waaayyyy better basic line drill and you can actually fight with it. Tan Tui requires too much imagination for use and that makes me question it's useability. Then again - maybe it just means I should practice it more. As it stands - it's a good way to initiate a TCMA beginner with something martial arts like to practice and learn...

[YouKnowWho]

There are something very unique in Tan Tui and that is:

- 1 step 3 punches,
- 1 step 1 punch, and
- 3 steps 1 punch.

The running punch (3 steps 1 punch) shows the true nature of the northern CMA characteristic which I don't see that in other CMA styles forms.

[Syn7]

the first vid is from Liu Lan Xi.

She became a nun and works for Da Lai La Ma.

the 2nd and 3 rd vid are examples for another singer from about the same time.

she continued to have a singing career.

once you became a nun or monk, you just disappear from any form of public life.

seclusion from the rest of the world.

---

oh thanx... i only checked the first one, thats what i was asking about... thanx anyways tho... :)

[danMilwaukee]

This is my friend Sully. We both trained at the Kung Fu Center in Milwaukee back in 2005. Here he is doing Grandmaster Yin's Tan Tui #1. I have not seen this version of Tan Tui anywhere and I have forgot lines 4, 8, 10, 11, and 12. If anybody knows of where I could see these lines please let me know. I'm planning on going back to the school soon to brush up on some things. http://www.youtube.com/user/s7934777#p/u/8/7O-OKN90cT8

[EarthDragon]

interesting becuase this topic came up on the mantis page speaking about my teacher and my lineage and tainan's keven braziers response was shi lu tan tuei"


On the Shyun vidtape he says this in English and then follows with the Chinese, "shi lu tan tuei"
If you follow the history that this style is named after Tan Sz temple then we can translate it as 10 roads of tan kicks.
Others use the character for tan which means springy and they translate it as 10 roads of spring(y) kicks.
Wah Lum, the only Mantis style to have actually incorporated Tan Tuei into the Mantis uses the tan character which means "to seek"

BTW, for WL folks I recomend the study of Gung Li chuen for a deeper insight into your art and its roots.

So, Shyun's Chinese is correct.
It is 10 roads of tan tuei-shi lu tan tuei. This version done by Shyun is almost definetly the one brought to Taiwan by Han Chin Tang with variations added by someone else, possibly Shyun himself.

It is important to note that 10 roads of tan tuei is not an 8 Step or a Mantis routine.
Wei Xiao Tang had his equivalent of the 10 roads of Tan Tuei encompassed within 8 roads.
On seeing Wei perform those 8 roads it is immediately apparent that they are Mantis.
Other Mantis branches also have their own roads for beginners, Zhang De Kuei of Mimen Mantis in Taiwan had 7 Roads, Jia Jingting and Li Kun Shan also had their roads.
HK 7* has their 14 roads. In every case, except for 10 roads of Tan Tuei, it is immediately apparent that these are roads for the training of Mantis.

10 roads of Tan Tuei are tradionally used for the training of the cha cheun style and its relatives.

Baji also has its roads of training which are unique to Baji.

[Northwind]

hmmm...

I honestly don't like Sub E Lo Tan Tui (my Cantonese phonetic spelling is terrible). I think it's over rated as a line drill. Luckily I come from a LGY / WHF / CHY / H C mantis line and I got to learn LGY's created form Sub Sa Lo. It's a waaayyyy better basic line drill and you can actually fight with it. Tan Tui requires too much imagination for use and that makes me question it's useability. Then again - maybe it just means I should practice it more. As it stands - it's a good way to initiate a TCMA beginner with something martial arts like to practice and learn...

I guess it depends on the framework. We do 12 roads, but it's trained in a very different manner than most, and the applications are all over the place - both shallow & deep.