Why Do we Practice Forms

[Yoshiyahu]

What is the Purpose of practicing forms?

How do the forms help us or make us better at doing wing chun, self defence and fighting?

[YouKnowWho]

Forms are designed for teaching and learing only. Forms are not designed for training. 2 men drills are designed for training, and solo drills are designed for enhancement.

[AdrianK]

What is the Purpose of practicing forms?

How do the forms help us or make us better at doing wing chun, self defence and fighting?

They're used for a few things:

- Developing strength and stability to properly apply the concepts learned

- Points of reference for self-teaching and teaching others, or brushing up. Sometimes we can lose certain things when we take breaks from training, our forms help us gain them back.

- An exhibition of your understanding of the concepts within the system, as well as a personal expression ala shadowboxing.

[t_niehoff]

What is the Purpose of practicing forms?


They are the "text books" for the WCK tools. So by practicing them, you can learn the tools. Sort of like singing the ABC song to learn the ABCs.

People give way too much significance to forms.

[hpclub]

Each form contains individual techniques we need to practice and ingrain in our muscle memory. the form is merely a way of putting them together as a sequence in which to contain the essential techniques for the particular prinicipal and concept the form teaches. Remember its not the form that is vital to learn but the individual techniques.

[Graham H]

People give way too much significance to forms.

So whats your idea then T??? :rolleyes:

No forms = No VT fighting!!!!!

What are you going to do just stand there and bore them to death??? :D:D:D:D:D

GH

[LoneTiger108]

What is the Purpose of practicing forms?

How do the forms help us or make us better at doing wing chun, self defence and fighting?

Forms are holding all the basic fundamentals of Wing Chun. They're a platform to build upon and for me they serve as the best refinement and maintenance tool.

As I see it today, the forms have become the basis of our curriculum but many fail to see the fact that they are only very basic images on an 'idea' that needs to be worked on and progressed through other training methods.

Self defense and fighting training methods are a separate entity which should support the knowledge and skillsets gained through the forms.

Ultimately, forms are just a small part of the whole but without them we wouldn't be Wing Chun practitioners.

[CFT]

So whats your idea then T??? :rolleyes:

No forms = No VT fighting!!!!!

What are you going to do just stand there and bore them to death??? :D:D:D:D:D

GHGu Lao WCK use a san sik (loose sets) format to teach VT. No SNT/CK/BJ. You think they have nothing to offer?

[LoneTiger108]

Gu Lao WCK use a san sik (loose sets) format to teach VT. No SNT/CK/BJ. You think they have nothing to offer?

Yes. They offer a sansau curriculum.

If you're a student who likes to pick up every technique out there then this approach is good, but without a core understanding of Wing Chun or another Martial Art for that matter all the sansau in the world is a waste of time imho.

[CFT]

Yes. They offer a sansau curriculum.

If you're a student who likes to pick up every technique out there then this approach is good, but without a core understanding of Wing Chun or another Martial Art for that matter all the sansau in the world is a waste of time imho.San sik is not san sau. Robert or Terence can comment with more authority, but my understanding was each point (dim) taught a principle in WCK.

[LoneTiger108]

San sik is not san sau. Robert or Terence can comment with more authority, but my understanding was each point (dim) taught a principle in WCK.

Okay, maybe I should have said they 'originate' from sansau. The 'point' methods (yau dim?) are, from what I understand, Leurng Jans retirement teachings which means to me that he reduced his curriculum to exclude the forms. Maybe highlighting the 'key points' with shortened sets. But I too am no authority on such things, so let's hope Robert or T can shed more light on the subject.

FME The sup yee san sik is not regarded as a 'form' either, just a collection of sets that is different from one practitioner to the next.

Do you think that Leurng Jan didn't know SLT, CK or BJ?

[CFT]

Okay, maybe I should have said they 'originate' from sansau. The 'point' methods (yau dim?) are, from what I understand, Leurng Jans retirement teachings which means to me that he reduced his curriculum to exclude the forms. Maybe highlighting the 'key points' with shortened sets. But I too am no authority on such things, so let's hope Robert or T can shed more light on the subject.

FME The sup yee san sik is not regarded as a 'form' either, just a collection of sets that is different from one practitioner to the next.

Do you think that Leurng Jan didn't know SLT, CK or BJ?Of course he did, the living record of his descendants proves this. I don't think his choice to use san sik as the teaching vehicle is inferior in any way to teaching via forms.

[KPM]

Its possible that WCK was originally taught by the san sik method. After all, rather than being a fight with an imaginary opponent, our forms are a series of descreet units of motion....like san sik that have been strung together. So it may be that Leung Jan was simply going back to an older method of teaching the WCK curriculum when he retired to Ku Lo village.

[wtxs]

They are the "text books" for the WCK tools. So by practicing them, you can learn the tools. Sort of like singing the ABC song to learn the ABCs.




So whats your idea then T??? :rolleyes:

No forms = No VT fighting!!!!!

What are you going to do just stand there and bore them to death??? :D:D:D:D:D

GH


You have to give "T" credit, he's not without good and straight answers some times.


Forms are holding all the basic fundamentals of Wing Chun. They're a platform to build upon and for me they serve as the best refinement and maintenance tool.

As I see it today, the forms have become the basis of our curriculum but many fail to see the fact that they are only very basic images on an 'idea' that needs to be worked on and progressed through other training methods.

Self defense and fighting training methods are a separate entity which should support the knowledge and skillsets gained through the forms.

Ultimately, forms are just a small part of the whole but without them we wouldn't be Wing Chun practitioners.

[YungChun]

You have to give "T" credit, he's not without good and straight answers some times.

No, apparently he (Graham and others) don't since he/they respond to clear concise answers by asking what the answer is and firing off 'drive-by' attacks worthy of a grade schooler.....

Which any way you slice it's just pure genius. :rolleyes:

[Graham H]

Gu Lao WCK use a san sik (loose sets) format to teach VT. No SNT/CK/BJ. You think they have nothing to offer?

Naaahhhhhh!!!:D

[Graham H]

You have to give "T" credit, he's not without good and straight answers some times.

Straight answers yes!!!! Good????? Heeeeeeellllll no!!!! :D

[Graham H]

firing off 'drive-by' attacks

mmmmmmmmm now there's an idea!!! LOL

[t_niehoff]

Yes. They offer a sansau curriculum.

If you're a student who likes to pick up every technique out there then this approach is good, but without a core understanding of Wing Chun or another Martial Art for that matter all the sansau in the world is a waste of time imho.

You are clueless about how san sik (and yau dim) are used to teach.

[t_niehoff]

So whats your idea then T??? :rolleyes:

No forms = No VT fighting!!!!!

What are you going to do just stand there and bore them to death??? :D:D:D:D:D

GH

Funny how boxing, MT, wrestling, BJJ, judo, sambo, savate, etc. -- how every combative sport in the world doesn't use forms to teach or train, yet they all produce overwhelmingly better results than TMAs.

So, please, tell us all the advantages to form work! LOL!.

[Graham H]

Funny how boxing, MT, wrestling, BJJ, judo, sambo, savate, etc. -- how every combative sport in the world doesn't use forms to teach or train, yet they all produce overwhelmingly better results than TMAs.

So, please, tell us all the advantages to form work! LOL!.

There are none Terence!! I'm with you brother. No more WSLVT for me, just disappointing rubbish nonsense attached Wing Chun from now on!!!! Yipeeeeeee!!:D

GH

[Graham H]

Funny how boxing, MT, wrestling, BJJ, judo, sambo, savate, etc. -- how every combative sport in the world doesn't use forms to teach or train, yet they all produce overwhelmingly better results than TMAs.

So, please, tell us all the advantages to form work! LOL!.

Actually Terence on second thoughts if you don't think there are any advantages of form work then why not throw them out the system all together? Does Robert have the same ideas? Some of your.......no hang on........all of your ideas on WCK are truly shocking!!!! Just glad I'm not a part of it.

Thats like learning to read with no writing you big numpty!!!:D:D:D

GH

[anerlich]

What are you going to do just stand there and bore them to death???

This would seem to be the strategy adopted by a few of the more prolific forum posters.

[AdrianK]

Funny how boxing, MT, wrestling, BJJ, judo, sambo, savate, etc. -- how every combative sport in the world doesn't use forms to teach or train, yet they all produce overwhelmingly better results than TMAs.

So, please, tell us all the advantages to form work! LOL!.

Sorta kinda. For instance, in boxing there's shadowboxing. Forms are just a defined way of remembering the system and feeling out the flaws in your structure. Its a defined set but eventually it should become like shadowboxing, a personal expression. After that, IMHO you should only go back to the form to refresh your memory or to teach someone.

That being said though, forms or no forms, they're certainly not the reason TMA's don't tend to produce fighters. The industry as a whole has far more significant problems.

[t_niehoff]

Sorta kinda. For instance, in boxing there's shadowboxing.


Shadow boxing is nothing like forms. In shadow boxing, you take what you have learned in sparring and practice doing that against an imaginary opponent -- that's why a beginner's shadow boxing looks very different than an expert's shadow boxing.



Forms are just a defined way of remembering the system and feeling out the flaws in your structure.


I agree with you that they are a way of remembering the "system", but they do not -- and cannot -- show you flaws in your structure. That only comes via application.



Its a defined set but eventually it should become like shadowboxing, a personal expression. After that, IMHO you should only go back to the form to refresh your memory or to teach someone.

That being said though, forms or no forms, they're certainly not the reason TMA's don't tend to produce fighters. The industry as a whole has far more significant problems.

Again, forms and shadow boxing are two entirely different animals.

Yes, TMAs have many problems but they all stem from one thing: how they are taught/trained. TMA training produces, or at least permits, all the other nonsense. And doing forms is a significant aspect in that training method.

[t_niehoff]

I disagree with you slightly here. For one; MT, Wrestling and BJJ use drills. Which is nothing more then forms with two people. Judo DOES have forms. I personally would never put Savate a category of combative arts. But, again that is an opinion on Savate.


No, alive, realistic drills that MT, wrestling, and BJJ use are not "nothing more than forms with two people" -- they are actually snippets of fighting, done with a genuinely resisting partner.



But, you just asked for the advantage of form work. Well, with SLT you are building strength in your elbow while at the same time working your strucutre in a controled manner.


No, you're not. You are learning the actions/movements of WCK but both strength and structure come only from dealing with resistance.



Let me ask you a quick question. What do you think is the purpose of Chum Kui? Because I think this is where most people make mistakes in their understanding of the forms.

The CK form teaches you the actions/movements of how to break an opponent's structure (using the short bridge).

[AdrianK]

Shadow boxing is nothing like forms. In shadow boxing, you take what you have learned in sparring and practice doing that against an imaginary opponent -- that's why a beginner's shadow boxing looks very different than an expert's shadow boxing.

I wouldn't call it "nothing like" forms. They're both practicing in the air. To put it better, forms can be a beginner's way to shadowboxing. Just a way to become acclimated to practicing in the air. Basically, where forms are a beginning, shadowboxing should be the end result. Its just a different approach to how to begin with a student.



I agree with you that they are a way of remembering the "system", but they do not -- and cannot -- show you flaws in your structure. That only comes via application.

There are flaws in your structure that can only be revealed through application, absolutely. But there are plenty of flaws you can discern just from practicing in the air as well. A loss of balance here, an overextension there, or a lack of support from an elbow or wrist angled wrong, things like that.



Yes, TMAs have many problems but they all stem from one thing: how they are taught/trained. TMA training produces, or at least permits, all the other nonsense. And doing forms is a significant aspect in that training method.

I agree with you that how they are taught and trained is the major issue. Forms aren't a significant aspect of that unless the instructor makes it so. If you're doing forms most of the time, obviously there's a problem there. If you're a fighter and you're doing forms in preparation for a fight, there's obviously a problem there. As long as forms are put in their proper context, there's nothing wrong with them. Just a different teaching approach than normal. They should obviously never be done as an alternative to sparring or partner drills.

[jesper]

But do forms teach you something that cant be taught at least as good or even better by other means ?

Well thats the real question for me anyways

One thing the sport approach to training is very good at is spotting which training methods works the best ( to our knowledge ) and thereby keep optimizing the training regime

[Hendrik]

form praticing is to train one in generate and handling different type of momentum which is accord to the uniqueness of the martial art style.

[YouKnowWho]

The Wing Chun forms were designed differently from forms designed in other styles. In styles such as Longfist or Mantis, a form will contain many combos that move 1 will set up for move 2, and move 2 will set up for move 3, ... (such as a groin kick, followed by a punch to the face, followed by an elbow on the chest, ...). This is not the case in the Wing Chun forms. If move 1 has no logic connection to move 2 then to train move 1 and move 2 as a sequence will have no value.

[LoneTiger108]

The Wing Chun forms were designed differently from forms designed in other styles...

If move 1 has no logic connection to move 2 then to train move 1 and move 2 as a sequence will have no value.

This is because the forms are not a collection of sansau (loose hand) techniques, they are our textbook collection of photographs that represent our core theories and principles. Images that need further enhancement and development with practise through time. This too, does require constant supervision and guidance because if you start to just 'come up with your own way' too early you will never see the woods through the trees imho.

The forms are kinda like that "finger pointing to the moon!"

[jeetsao]

Funny how boxing, MT, wrestling, BJJ, judo, sambo, savate, etc. -- how every combative sport in the world doesn't use forms to teach or train, yet they all produce overwhelmingly better results than TMAs.

Better sport results!

[jeetsao]

I keep seeing people play down the importance of the 3 major forms as well as the dummy form in WC. From my own experience, it's because they lack the true understanding of the forms and dont' know why they are doing what they are doing.

Completely agree !

[CFT]

Better sport results!Yeah right! :rolleyes: As if those skills and conditioning don't carry over to "teh street".

[jeetsao]

Yeah right! :rolleyes: As if those skills and conditioning don't carry over to "teh street".
They do carry over, but they are not a guarantee of "better results"

[CFT]

You're right, there are no guarantees in life. Only time limited consumer product ones anyway :p

So what do you think would give better results than a "sportive" training regime?

[m1k3]

Better sport results!

LOL, as an athlete I am in better shape than the normal person, used to rigors of sparring or rolling and have better reflexes due to actually using my skills against other people who are athletes and training hard also.

So it doesn't matter if it is the street or the ring a punch is a punch, a takedown is a takedown and a choke is a choke.

As for your 'street fighters' we get them coming to the school to try out MT or BJJ or MMA. As an advanced beginner I have no trouble handling those people when we roll. And it usually shocks the sh1t out of them as I am an overweight 56 year old. Its particularly funny when I just play a positional game and don't go for a sub and at the end of the 3 minutes they are gasping for breath and I am hardly breathing hard.

But, they might have friends! What then?
Well you know when I go out I have friends also and they are often people who train too.

But, the might have a weapon! What then?
Well unless you have a weapon yourself, and it can be a weapon of opportunity, you are pretty well screwed. It doesn't matter what you train. [switches to John Wayne voice] If they have a weapon your best option is to get out of Dodge pilgrim.

Besides, everyone seems to forget this, I can add deadly street techniques to my sport training using the same methods to train them that you do. Except mine will be added on top of an already proved delivery system.

Train any way you like but just don't get caught up in the street > sport myth.

[jeetsao]

Besides, everyone seems to forget this, I can add deadly street techniques to my sport training using the same methods to train them that you do. Except mine will be added on top of an already proved delivery system.

When you add the street techniques, it is no longer sport.
Glad you see it my way :)

[jesper]

When you add the street techniques, it is no longer sport.
Glad you see it my way :)

Dont think anyone here advocates turning WCK into sport. Just to look at how proven fighters train and use what can be beneficial to you

[David Jamieson]

when you begin learning a style, it's forms dictate it's content.
so, forms is to gain a foundation in the style itself.

They are a learning tool and are often key to the particularity of a style.

[Phil Redmond]

LOL, as an athlete I am in better shape than the normal person, used to rigors of sparring or rolling and have better reflexes due to actually using my skills against other people who are athletes and training hard also.

So it doesn't matter if it is the street or the ring a punch is a punch, a takedown is a takedown and a choke is a choke.

As for your 'street fighters' we get them coming to the school to try out MT or BJJ or MMA. As an advanced beginner I have no trouble handling those people when we roll. And it usually shocks the sh1t out of them as I am an overweight 56 year old. Its particularly funny when I just play a positional game and don't go for a sub and at the end of the 3 minutes they are gasping for breath and I am hardly breathing hard.

But, they might have friends! What then?
Well you know when I go out I have friends also and they are often people who train too.

But, the might have a weapon! What then?
Well unless you have a weapon yourself, and it can be a weapon of opportunity, you are pretty well screwed. It doesn't matter what you train. [switches to John Wayne voice] If they have a weapon your best option is to get out of Dodge pilgrim.

Besides, everyone seems to forget this, I can add deadly street techniques to my sport training using the same methods to train them that you do. Except mine will be added on top of an already proved delivery system.

Train any way you like but just don't get caught up in the street > sport myth.
What Mike said. :)

[m1k3]

When you add the street techniques, it is no longer sport.
Glad you see it my way :)

No, it is street techniques added to a proven delivery system based on sparring and/or rolling. Without sparring or rolling there is no delivery system, there is just drills and theory and larping.

Sparring and rolling are the closest you can get to a real fight where someone is trying to fight back. If you aren't doing this against good people you aren't training to fight. How do you know if the people are good, because either they or their school competes in a SPORT against other schools. Its called pressure testing. Competing in the ring or on the mats is the only way to keep the fantasy techniques weeded out. If you can't punch someone in the face in the ring how can you expect to be able to poke his eye in a fight. You can't because you don't have the delivery system. Now someone who competes in the ring only has to make a minor adjustment to his punch them in the face delivery system to make the poke in the eye work.

This isn't rocket science folks.

So, if you want to believe you can pull off your deadly techniques against a sport fighter feel free but you’d better hope you never have to try.

For example, as a grappler, I take you down and get the mount. Not unreasonable because you don’t believe in training in mere sport styles. You try to escape by attempting to bite my thigh. I will then adjust my position to remove your ability to bite and then choke you unconscious or dislocate your shoulder. Moves that I have done hundreds of times in my sport based training. I can do this because I train my grappling in a realistic environment and I am used to altering my position based on my opponent’s counters in a real time environment. Whereas you as a ‘too deadly to spar’ based fighter will have no clue what to do. (Randy Couture vs James Toney for example)

I hope this clears some things up.

[jeetsao]

Dont think anyone here advocates turning WCK into sport. Just to look at how proven fighters train and use what can be beneficial to you

No problem with that. I agree.

[jeetsao]

Whereas you as a ‘too deadly to spar’ based fighter will have no clue what to do. (Randy Couture vs James Toney for example)

I hope this clears some things up.

I spar all the time but different than MMA. And by the way,I loved what Couture did to Toney. I have a hard time watching boxing any more because it is not street real. MMA is closer but still not the be all and end all.

[m1k3]

I spar all the time but different than MMA. And by the way,I loved what Couture did to Toney. I have a hard time watching boxing any more because it is not street real. MMA is closer but still not the be all and end all.

Of course its not the be all and end all but it is the closest you can get to a real fight and train safely. There are too many TMA and RBSD folks who believe by drilling eye pokes and groin grabs and other deadly techniques that they are prepared for a fight, right up to the point they get hit or taken down and have someone really trying there best to beat them. That is not the time to find out getting hit really hurts or oops, what do you know I can be taken down.

So without taking some pages from the sport playbook you will not be even a little prepared for when the sh1t hits the fan.

[LoneTiger108]

So without taking some pages from the sport playbook you will not be even a little prepared for when the sh1t hits the fan.

I was a sports"child" dude, and found that both my Karate and Wing Chun training heavily depended on your cardio for one. They helped to maintain my health and fitness and gave me something extra too. I also played relentless amounts of football (soccer!) all through my teens.

Now, I hadn't competed for years and years, or even trained to compete with my Martial Arts EVER, but I guarantee you that when the sh1t hit MY fan I was able to use the martial arts I knew with no trouble at all with maximium effect.

Now I'm not saying that makes me a bada$$, or a competent coach, or even a good Martial Artist, but I will say that ALL I really knew at that time were katas and forms, and a little self exploration as to what they all meant! And that training alone saved my neck more than once.

[Yoshiyahu]

I love that you train drills, practice forms, punch and kick in the air. This is great. But this is only the beginning. As you master that add more to your training. maybe twice a week work on the basics above. Three times a week work on sparring and conditioning. Try running regularly, and try hitting a heavy bag, wall bag and wooden man with full force to develop different levels of power. Also add to that iron palm bag training.

Don't stop doing your forms, two man drills and punches and kicks in the air. But also along with chi sau, do light sparring and sometimes to full out hard sparring to see how well you do.

Hard sparring is an anerobic activity. If the extension of your deadly street techniques are practice ion drills. Chances are in a full out assualt you will not be able to apply them because you will be overwhelm by a younger and stronger opponent who knows nothing. Knowing the basics alone wont make you a better fighter. Fighting makes you a better fighter. Now you don't have the opportunity to actually fight for your life every day unless you live somewhere bad. But a person who spars frequently will have a greater understanding at what will happen oppose to someone who doesn't do anything. Just like the person who does chi sau every day for five years has a greater understanding of chi sau than someone who has only being doing it for one year.

Sifu's who have been doing push hands in tai chi or chi sau for over twenty years can attest a five year student is not on their level. So it is with those who spar or fight regularly. They have adavantage of actually having the experience. Even if you drilled techniques for chi sau for ten years. Until you actually start putting them into practice they are useless. An even then it will be awhile before you become accurate. The same with fighting! Those who spar have a greater advantage!

Traditional Wing Chun sparred other fighters of different styles back in the day. Not a chi sau match either. How can you chi sau with someone who doesn't know chi sau?