How to increase Punching Power

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun is suspose to have short range power? How do you train this? How do you develop short power?

What are some things you guys do?

[Badnews]

Pole training, dynamic pole drills (with and without pole), bag work....with intent...

[jesper]

body structure

Though im normally against internet teaching here is a guy who can explain it very well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvh8EGzW160

[Yoshiyahu]

Pole training, dynamic pole drills (with and without pole), bag work....with intent...

define pole training?

define heavy bag work with intent?

[AdrianK]

Punching power starts with intent. You have to want to punch something hard. Then its about how you generate power.

Increasing punching power really depends on how you want to strike. Then its up to you whether you want to twist your hips, shoulders, utilize forward momentum, etc.

So depending on how you punch, focus on strengthening the muscle that can contribute to those movements, in the gym, its the most scientifically sound way.

[t_niehoff]

Wing Chun is suspose to have short range power? How do you train this? How do you develop short power?

What are some things you guys do?

From my perspective, this is a WRONG question.

[hpclub]

Definatly do the spearing technique with the pole.

[t_niehoff]

Definatly do the spearing technique with the pole.

Brilliant. Do one thing to develop another. Typical.

[CFT]

Brilliant. Do one thing to develop another. Typical.The increase in punching power is just a by-product of the pole training, but it is not necessarily the most efficient way to train for punching power. Western boxers have been scientifically measured (on Fight Science?) to have the most (or almost) powerful punches. They "just" train the punch. A lot.

[k gledhill]

Wing Chun is suspose to have short range power? How do you train this? How do you develop short power?

What are some things you guys do?


timing & distance ....hit your partner on the jaw lightly as they come at you , you go after them , they move sideways etc....not easy is it ?:D

doing chi-sao prepares you for the proximity of the distance and the timing required ...

first we use dan chi-sao to develop each others strikes. Using each others structure and counter facing force as resistance to make a strong punch with elbows inwards to start.
Not about feeling the tan with a fook :D Tan elbow spreads versus jums elbow in each tries to displace the other ....stalemates on the line will occur as each punches the other forwards iow "punch a punch" for the drill. Then learn to 'switch off' the punch back to inward elbow positions of tan or fok, the prestrike positions for each punch in chi-sao.

Dan chi-sao is performed at a distance greater than each can make contact to the partners body/chin, the focus bing on developing a punch first.

Then with chi-sao we move closer to use the now developed idea of hitting and deflecting each others punches but with the distance to reach with a punch and also shut down counter entry as we do so with elbows/forearms held inwards.
We learn that if a guy steps towards us he is stealing our distance to generate ko force etc...and so it starts we avoid chasing arms in this distance becasue our natural forearm angles create natural 'intercepts' as we focus on alignment and force genration with the ability to maintain striking distances, using mobility drills ...

theres more [for terences rebuttal] but i cant write a book for every question ;)

tactics to apply this idea are also trained concurrently ...

[Graham H]

Brilliant. Do one thing to develop another. Typical.

This shows your lack of VT knowledge yet again Terence!!!!

I wish you would stop writing in the context that its your way or the highway!!!!!

Maybe you should take the time to realize that certain things that are written on this forum that you don't agree with are simply because YOU do not know or understand them.

Maybe I am mistaken and you really are the All Seeing Eye but I just think you are moribund and a plebeian!!!! :p:p:D:D

GH xxx

[YungChun]

timing & distance ....hit your partner on the jaw lightly as they come at you , you go after them , they move sideways etc....not easy is it ?:D

doing chi-sao prepares you for the proximity of the distance and the timing required ...

first we use dan chi-sao to develop each others strikes. Using each others structure and counter facing force as resistance to make a strong punch with elbows inwards to start.
Not about feeling the tan with a fook :D Tan elbow spreads versus jums elbow in each tries to displace the other ....stalemates on the line will occur as each punches the other forwards iow "punch a punch" for the drill. Then learn to 'switch off' the punch back to inward elbow positions of tan or fok, the prestrike positions for each punch in chi-sao.

Dan chi-sao is performed at a distance greater than each can make contact to the partners body/chin, the focus bing on developing a punch first.

Then with chi-sao we move closer to use the now developed idea of hitting and deflecting each others punches but with the distance to reach with a punch and also shut down counter entry as we do so with elbows/forearms held inwards.
We learn that if a guy steps towards us he is stealing our distance to generate ko force etc...and so it starts we avoid chasing arms in this distance becasue our natural forearm angles create natural 'intercepts' as we focus on alignment and force genration with the ability to maintain striking distances, using mobility drills ...

theres more [for terences rebuttal] but i cant write a book for every question ;)

tactics to apply this idea are also trained concurrently ...

Standard elbow displacing intercepting post "idea" seen a million times..

Where is the power component? The power comes from the body....

[k gledhill]

Standard elbow displacing intercepting post "idea" seen a million times..

Where is the power component? The power comes from the body....

not using the wrists as mst guys chi-saoing will do is hard ....then the use of force off the striking line...alignment of the barrel of the gun , even under sudden contact. We can disrut guys too but is a BTW to our punching in...

of course the structure in movement is required to deliver force to ko...while being able to intuitively move tactically to sudden shifts of the opponent.

being able to "post" yourslef to deliver sufficient force in aligned timing with body weight in motion to harness the 'mass' as you tactically maneuver for optimal positions...all without thinking : )

using heavy bags goes without saying ..pad work, etc....

but its useless in the wrong distance with bad timing and tactics....

chi-sao is an intense exchange under constant 'pressure' ...revealing simple openings we can use in an oportunistic manner to make attacks...chi-sao makes us quicker to use these 'openeings' to KO ....iow finish the fight asap.

no hesitation.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
Wing Chun is suspose to have short range power? How do you train this? How do you develop short power?

What are some things you guys do?


From my perspective, this is a WRONG question.

***WHAT AN IDIOT!!! :rolleyes:

Wrong question, please...It's a good question, and obviously one you have no real answer to - which is why you made such a dumb remark.

Why don't you SHOW the forum how you go about developing power?

No, don't direct us to go visit someone else or watch someone else's vid - you show us.

Post a vid.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Punching power starts with intent. You have to want to punch something hard. Then its about how you generate power.

Increasing punching power really depends on how you want to strike. Then its up to you whether you want to twist your hips, shoulders, utilize forward momentum, etc.

So depending on how you punch, focus on strengthening the muscle that can contribute to those movements, in the gym, its the most scientifically sound way.

***THAT'S A GOOD ANSWER, Adrian.

[IRONMONK]

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
Wing Chun is suspose to have short range power? How do you train this? How do you develop short power?

What are some things you guys do?



***WHAT AN IDIOT!!! :rolleyes:

Wrong question, please...It's a good question, and obviously one you have no real answer to - which is why you made such a dumb remark.

Why don't you SHOW the forum how you go about developing power?

No, don't direct us to go visit someone else or watch someone else's vid - you show us.

Post a vid.

He learnt his power punching from a boxercise class run by a professional fighter

[hpclub]

Brilliant. Do one thing to develop another. Typical.


Illogical response. I practiced punching 1000s of times every day and reached a platue with speed and power. Pole techniques have developed my fast twitch fibres and taking punching to a different level.

More fool you for silo mentality ;-)

[Wayfaring]

Boxers in training develop their punching power from bagwork.

A typical schedule for a boxer could look something like this:

MWF - 3x3:00 rounds mitt work
MWF - 3x3:00 rounds heavy bag
TTh - 3x3:00 speed bag / other bags
TTh - 3x3:00 rounds against an opponent / training partner

This actually is taken from a friend's program for jr. boxers - teenagers. They start to scale it up as to number of rounds as the boxer progresses.

Punching power is a combination that includes speed and accuracy too - you can't take it out of context. If someone is so slow they never connect you don't have power in a fighting context.

All the work is supervised and someone corrects form, footwork, on all the rounds.

I'm posting this because someone brought up that Western boxers had the greatest measured punch strength. They develop it by doing some of the above type of sport training method development. I was watching an interview with Freddie Roach the other day who trains Manny Pacquiao and GSP. Manny worked 18 rounds straight mitt work with little break. So by the pro level those numbers are significantly greater than what is posted above.

When you train this way it also is a cardio and strength workout.

This represents a sport training approach, as opposed to some methods posted such as working with a spear, doing forms, etc. While it may be possible to get some results doing other things like that, the above type method produces results that are measured to be the greatest.

[YungChun]

VT's way of making power is found in the forms...

VT uses body alignment (aligning the joints) body unity (the body working as one connected mass--a hammer) to drive the nail (the arm) into the opponent in sudden abrupt shocks of short power..the horse generator must be in sync with the arms, the nail, the striking... This is typically not seen and instead we see people walking or "running" into the opponent while doing the classic eggbeater (chain punches).

The main generator for doing this is the horse, the legs, the "blue print" for the mechanics is in the forms.. Once you know the correct mechanics the best way to train it is to do it...not by doing something else..

Making your "muscles bigger" (for a 'small woman's art') is not a "good answer" because without knowing the correct method it won't help to any useful degree.

[CFT]

Jim, I don't think anyone would advocate strength over technique. In the learning/development phase, the teacher should correct the student to ensure they are not using strength before technique.

However, once you have technique then having more body mass behind your punch cannot be a bad thing unless you sacrifice dexterity and mobility to develop it.

[YungChun]

Jim, I don't think anyone would advocate strength over technique. In the learning/development phase, the teacher should correct the student to ensure they are not using strength before technique.

However, once you have technique then having more body mass behind your punch cannot be a bad thing unless you sacrifice dexterity and mobility to develop it.

We can see clearly from posts and videos that no one (or precious few) have any VT body power technique..... "Strength training" hardly addresses this problem or how specifically VT generates power.

So you "increase power" by not powering your VT striking (mainly) with your arms...and instead from the body..

[Wayfaring]

VT's way of making power is found in the forms...

VT uses body alignment (aligning the joints) body unity (the body working as one connected mass--a hammer) to drive the nail (the arm) into the opponent in sudden abrupt shocks of short power..the horse generator must be in sync with the arms, the nail, the striking... This is typically not seen and instead we see people walking or "running" into the opponent while doing the classic eggbeater (chain punches).

The main generator for doing this is the horse, the legs, the "blue print" for the mechanics is in the forms..

The forms have the blue print, but without supervision many can practice forms without learning the power generation. But it is true that for WCK you need to learn that method of power generation.


Once you know the correct mechanics the best way to train it is to do it...not by doing something else..

IMO "doing it" is represented by the sports training approach and method, not by forms.


Making your "muscles bigger" (for a 'small woman's art') is not a "good answer" because without knowing the correct method it won't help to any useful degree.
It is a common fallacy that sport specific training is about "making muscles bigger". It is about increasing functional strength in a specific endeavor. So for example, a bodybuilding approach to lifting is not going to produce the same punching power as the bagwork example I detailed above.

[CFT]

We can see clearly from posts and videos that no one (or precious few) have any VT body power technique..... "Strength training" hardly addresses this problem or how specifically VT generates power.

So you "increase power" by not powering your VT striking (mainly) with your arms...and instead from the body..If you have the technique then having more strength couldn't hurt.

I agree you don't want to just arm punch. Power should come from the lower body (horse) i.e. the legs. You need strong core muscles to stabilize the delivery of the power to the upper body and out through the arms. Each link add a bit. Strength and timing is important IMO.

[IRONMONK]

. I was watching an interview with Freddie Roach the other day who trains Manny Pacquiao and GSP.

I've seen pics of Amir Khan with the same S&C coach as Manny Pac...hitting a heavy bag with a baseball bat

[Graham H]

VT's way of making power is found in the forms...

VT uses body alignment (aligning the joints) body unity (the body working as one connected mass--a hammer) to drive the nail (the arm) into the opponent in sudden abrupt shocks of short power..the horse generator must be in sync with the arms, the nail, the striking... This is typically not seen and instead we see people walking or "running" into the opponent while doing the classic eggbeater (chain punches).

The main generator for doing this is the horse, the legs, the "blue print" for the mechanics is in the forms.. Once you know the correct mechanics the best way to train it is to do it...not by doing something else..

Making your "muscles bigger" (for a 'small woman's art') is not a "good answer" because without knowing the correct method it won't help to any useful degree.

I agree with you 100% Jimmy!!! See I'm not all bad!!! :D

oh hang on......96%....its not a small womans art!! Thats a myth!!

How's the weather in NYC??? Bet its cold Allllllllllllllllll righty then!!! :p

GH

[YungChun]

I agree with you 100% Jimmy!!! See I'm not all bad!!! :D

oh hang on......96%....its not a small womans art!! Thats a myth!!

How's the weather in NYC??? Bet its cold Allllllllllllllllll righty then!!! :p

GH

Well then I'd have to wonder why PB is constantly seen firing off hyper-speed de-linked chain punches out of sync with his horse.....using momentum to compensate..

[jeetsao]

Wing Chun is suspose to have short range power? How do you train this? How do you develop short power?

What are some things you guys do?

It starts, but does not end with siu nim tao.

[jeetsao]

It starts, but does not end with siu nim tao.

On second thought, it starts and ends with siu nim tao.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
Wing Chun is suspose to have short range power? How do you train this? How do you develop short power?

What are some things you guys do?



***WHAT AN IDIOT!!! :rolleyes:

Wrong question, please...It's a good question, and obviously one you have no real answer to - which is why you made such a dumb remark.

Why don't you SHOW the forum how you go about developing power?

No, don't direct us to go visit someone else or watch someone else's vid - you show us.

Post a vid.

That's his M.O. parrot obvious sound advice about basic training techniques and down play his lack of understanding of the fundamentals of fighting.

[YungChun]

That's his M.O. parrot obvious sound advice about basic training techniques and down play his lack of understanding of the fundamentals of fighting.

Yeah, the balls to offer sound advice...and even art specific advice...

Don't let him fool you though......

Just ignore him and instead listen to all the dumb ass advice and ideas that are so plentiful....as we see above...

[Yoshiyahu]

You guys have some really great advice. I have heard some traditional ways for training punching power and also western ways of training punching power. Me my self and I i think one should focus on both Yin and Yang, Chi,Ging and Lik. If you develop both internal and external power via isometrics, isotonics, Calisthenics and weight training. i feel all these things assist in power. Of Course I don't believe you should forsake doing forms, and stretching, and holding static posture to improve your body structure and strength your stances. This all assist in power. But this is a yin way of doing so. One must incorporate both Yin and Yang. So weight training is a good way to go along with doing push ups, chin ups, along with hitting a heavy bag, using weights to slowly punch with to make your hands lighter. and to punch with speed to make your hands faster. Using Baoding balls to add snap in your punch, hitting mitts to work on accuracy, To spar.

But it seems many people are going about saying that you do one side or the other and dont do what those people do. Wing Chun does use the weapons to make one stronger. But also you have other exercises like kettle bells that assist with more functional strenght? What about a wall bag. Isnt that to develop your punch in addition to hitting a heavy bag and air punching 1000 times?

But I am see things as a combination of sorts. Utilizing some of western techniques is vital. Because when I study traditional chinese methods. The chinese also had a sand bag about the size of human body they hit too to develop power. An many gung fu schools at dumb bells too? what is this for. To develop strenght. A stronger opponent can hit harder. Whats this misnomer you dont need strenght to punch hard? Yes one should train the body in unison when hitting the wooden man or heavy bag. That will produce great effects when you hit someone with your whole body. But sometimes you might not take a step forward an hit. You may just use to hips or rotate the body or use the curl. It depends on the situation. So why not develop each part of your body to have power instead of just one. i don't get it when people say You dont need strenght, flexibility or agility to do wing chun. If you have a guy who is stronger than you an he does Wing Chun even if his skill level is not equal to yours he will have an advantage. Because strenght and speed are apart of skill just as agility, flexibility, accuracy, and timing are apart of skill? Why do some WC people forsake strength building and flexibilty training?

If you read of the Kuit Kuen you will see Strenght is not everything but the strong you are the more advantageous you are!

- Beware of brute strength when facing someone from the same style. Beware of the situation in a confrontation.

- Store mental energy with the mind. Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi. Generate power with strength.

- A weak body must start with strength improvement.

- Be forceful when applying power.

- The Wooden Man develops use of power.

- Do not collide with a strong opponent; with a weak opponent use a direct frontal assault.

Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless – like water. Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup, you put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle, you put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.” – Bruce Lee

[imperialtaichi]

Good question, but the issue is a lot more complex.

1. Some punches works like a sledge hammer, some like an ice-pick. It's not just the quantity of power; but different quality of the power is also important and would require a totally different set of biomechanics.

2. the "Effective" power. We are not punching a dead piece of meat, but a living reactive system. There are ways to punch that make the opponent harder to resist; so two equal powered punch may have a different "effective" power.

3. You want to develope the biomechanics that works with what you are doing; a more powerful way to punch may actually make you Kungfu less effective if the way it is done is not compatible to your overall body structure.

Spend some time studying the Chinese acupuncture system, from a biomechanical point of view. For example, understanding the function of how the "Yinqiao Mai" folds and opens may help you work out a way to punch that would suit you. A lot of the acupuncture point names in Chinese have specific meanings and those meaning gives you clues on the functions of that specific region of the body. You will find if you look at the system this way it is actually very scientific.

Cheers,
John

[Yoshiyahu]

Good question, but the issue is a lot more complex.

1. Some punches works like a sledge hammer, some like an ice-pick. It's not just the quantity of power; but different quality of the power is also important and would require a totally different set of biomechanics.

2. the "Effective" power. We are not punching a dead piece of meat, but a living reactive system. There are ways to punch that make the opponent harder to resist; so two equal powered punch may have a different "effective" power.

3. You want to develope the biomechanics that works with what you are doing; a more powerful way to punch may actually make you Kungfu less effective if the way it is done is not compatible to your overall body structure.

Spend some time studying the Chinese acupuncture system, from a biomechanical point of view. For example, understanding the function of how the "Yinqiao Mai" folds and opens may help you work out a way to punch that would suit you. A lot of the acupuncture point names in Chinese have specific meanings and those meaning gives you clues on the functions of that specific region of the body. You will find if you look at the system this way it is actually very scientific.

Cheers,
John

Okay in your opinion how about punching someone in the face like the nose, mouth, chin and bridge of the mouth or were the mustache meets the nose?

How about those points How should you train to hit?

[HumbleWCGuy]

Yeah, the balls to offer sound advice...and even art specific advice...

Don't let him fool you though......

Just ignore him and instead listen to all the dumb ass advice and ideas that are so plentiful....as we see above...

So T. is a guy who who constantly repeats mantras like train against resisting opponents and test your techniques under pressure. Yet he failed to even have a single sparring match in 20 some years of training were the result for him could have resulted in a knock out. On the surface what he is saying is true and sound, but like a parrot he has no real understanding of what it means to train realistically so how valuable is that advice?

Beyond that basic parroting, ask him any question and it will usually result in a personal attack because parroting is where his knowledge ends.

Now as far as getting advice on this board, LOL.

[Runlikehell]

Good question, but the issue is a lot more complex.

1. Some punches works like a sledge hammer, some like an ice-pick. It's not just the quantity of power; but different quality of the power is also important and would require a totally different set of biomechanics.

2. the "Effective" power. We are not punching a dead piece of meat, but a living reactive system. There are ways to punch that make the opponent harder to resist; so two equal powered punch may have a different "effective" power.

3. You want to develope the biomechanics that works with what you are doing; a more powerful way to punch may actually make you Kungfu less effective if the way it is done is not compatible to your overall body structure.

Spend some time studying the Chinese acupuncture system, from a biomechanical point of view. For example, understanding the function of how the "Yinqiao Mai" folds and opens may help you work out a way to punch that would suit you. A lot of the acupuncture point names in Chinese have specific meanings and those meaning gives you clues on the functions of that specific region of the body. You will find if you look at the system this way it is actually very scientific.

Cheers,
John

While I'm not the OP, this is a subject I'm interested in too. Thank you for the post. I'll look further into this to develop my own understanding.

[Graham H]

Well then I'd have to wonder why PB is constantly seen firing off hyper-speed de-linked chain punches out of sync with his horse.....using momentum to compensate..

OMG Jim!!!!! You are such a pen1s!!! :D De-linked chain punches???? LMFAO

GH

[funsau]

the ultimate goal is to develop relax and long range ging/energy.

[imperialtaichi]

I apologize for the quality of the video. This illustrate just one of the many ways generate power. I will have this video removed soon, as I am not entirely happy with the way I was explaining, but it's a start. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrm78xIsNS8

Cheers,
John

[Runlikehell]

Thanks for the video.

[t_niehoff]

So T. is a guy who who constantly repeats mantras like train against resisting opponents and test your techniques under pressure.


Yes, I repeat that we should train realistically to develop realistic skill.



Yet he failed to even have a single sparring match in 20 some years of training
were the result for him could have resulted in a knock out.


Why do you feel to make up lies?



On the surface what he is saying is true and sound, but like a parrot he has no real understanding of what it means to train realistically so how valuable is that advice?


Well, if I am parroting, I'm parroting what all good fighters and fight trainers say.



Beyond that basic parroting, ask him any question and it will usually result in a personal attack because parroting is where his knowledge ends.


No, there personal attacks begin after trolls like you who don't even practice WCK, who can't even say who taught him, etc. begin making personal attacks. And that begins when I start refuting your dumb statements.

You're the guy who also used to argue with Dale about grappling and kickboxing.



Now as far as getting advice on this board, LOL.

Yes, for someone like you who hasn't ever learned WCK, much of what is said probably does go over your head.

[Kevin73]

The increase in punching power is just a by-product of the pole training, but it is not necessarily the most efficient way to train for punching power. Western boxers have been scientifically measured (on Fight Science?) to have the most (or almost) powerful punches. They "just" train the punch. A lot.

I watched that episode, it was hardly scientific. They had a HW professional boxer for their test subject, yet for the kung fu punch they have someone who weighed MAYBE 150 lbs. and hit with the lead hand. The TKD almost had the same punching power as the pro boxer using a reverse punch. The test was apples to oranges. They should have tried to find fighters approximately the same size throwing the same type of punch.

For example, both throwing the kung fu lead punch vs. the boxer's jab or both throwing a reverse punch or right cross etc

[Yoshiyahu]

how does one accomplish this?


the ultimate goal is to develop relax and long range ging/energy.

[YouKnowWho]

The power and speed are always contradict to each other. If you start with your left shoulder forward and your right hand on your right waist, you then send your right shoulder forward when you punch so your right hand can have the maximum traveling path. You should be able to generate the maximum amout of power. The problem is this will violate the WC "chain punches" principle that all punches start from the center of your chest (shortest distance). When you use "square shoulder" principle, you can have the fastest punches but since your body is not going to twist from one maximum to the other maximum, you just won't be able to generate the maximum amount of power.

You can see this clip has the maximum "power generation" method but between each punches, the speed is too slow to be combat realistic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihQuF4P687k

[jeetsao]

I watched that episode, it was hardly scientific. They had a HW professional boxer for their test subject, yet for the kung fu punch they have someone who weighed MAYBE 150 lbs. and hit with the lead hand. The TKD almost had the same punching power as the pro boxer using a reverse punch. The test was apples to oranges. They should have tried to find fighters approximately the same size throwing the same type of punch.

For example, both throwing the kung fu lead punch vs. the boxer's jab or both throwing a reverse punch or right cross etc

I thought the same thing. Ironic. The test wasn't very scientific, now was it.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Last thing I would do to develop power for punching is pole work or forms. Absolutely ridiculous.

Hit a bag/pads, Olympic Powerlifting, chop down trees, sledgehammer tyres... are all superior ways.

The most powerful punchers DID NOT DO forms with poles.

Suki

[YouKnowWho]

The WC "chain punches" emphasizes on the fast combo. If you add Fajin method into it, you will slow down between each punches and that will not be a good thing.

The speed and Fajin just don't marry very well. The reason is simple. If you try to throw 5 punches in 1 second, you won't have enough time to generate power on every single punches. On the other hand, if you use the maximum compress and maximum release, you won't be able to get the fast hand combo speed that you desire.

May be we can compare different Fajin methods here. They all share the same principle and that is compress (slow) and release (fast). Please notice that the slow compress make the Fajin not combat realistic.

1. Chen Taiji Fajin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_vcWq2GYXs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g

2. XYLH Fajin (influence the 6 harmony PM):

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/PEiPFPXwwlU/

3. Baji Fajin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihQuF4P687k

[FongSung]

Last thing I would do to develop power for punching is pole work or forms. Absolutely ridiculous.

Hit a bag/pads, Olympic Powerlifting, chop down trees, sledgehammer tyres... are all superior ways.

The most powerful punchers DID NOT DO forms with poles.

Suki

Maybe you are correct they are superior.
But WC people do train the pole and some/all of the actions you mentioned above are covered in the 6.5 pole. If you have a heavy pole it is better. Therefore it is not negative to your general strength and aids in your overall punching power. It's a by product of training the pole not train the pole to be a powerful puncher.:)

So why ridiculous for a WC'ner. Yes ridiculous for a MMA or Boxer etc.
A WC'ner can also do the above "functional" exercises aka Crossfit & Kettlebell training / Stone blocks, iron rings, heavy bags etc.

Don't be too quick to discard - but if you are a WC'ner and practise the pole you get the benifit anyway whether you train for for this reason or not ha ha:)

win win ;)

[Hendrik]

I apologize for the quality of the video. This illustrate just one of the many ways generate power. I will have this video removed soon, as I am not entirely happy with the way I was explaining, but it's a start. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrm78xIsNS8

Cheers,
John



John,

Thanks for sharing, what do you like and what do you like to further improve?

[Wu Wei Wu]

You do not develop power (in any effective way) in punching by doing pole work or the forms. Punching power is increased by DEVELOPING THE BODY using actions that mimic the dynamics of punching (usually with resistance).

God help those people that look inwards at Wing Chun for all the answers!

Suki

[Hendrik]

God help those people that look inwards at Wing Chun for all the answers!

Suki

What do you mean?

[theo]

What do you mean?

i believe by "looking inwards" he's referring to increasing punching power by doing forms, pole work instead of hitting the punching bag, etc. while i think he's completely overlooking the internal benefits, one can't be completely focused on just the internal. training both internal and external are needed since both depend on each other

[YungChun]

The WC "chain punches" emphasizes on the fast combo. If you add Fajin method into it, you will slow down between each punches and that will not be a good thing.

Disagree.. It's not one or the other.. Where one is fast punches with little to no power, nor does body power require one to punch slow...

Just because it was done slowly in the demo doesn't mean it should or must be done that way in application, fact is it can't be done like that and work.

Just because you can punch faster without power doesn't mean you should--it might look workable in demos or with compliant partners but in the real world no power means no effect.

The power generators in VT (and other arts) allow very quick compression and very quick release.. Many arts will load one tool while the other is releasing power..

Sacrificing body power for the mad egg beater (hyper speed chain punches) is simply poor VT...

[YouKnowWho]

quick compression and very quick release.. ...
The WC Chain punches is just like the Mantis fast hand combo. It's famous in "speed" and not "power".

The quick compression and quick release usually generate less power than the slow compression and fast release. Both power and speed are relative terms. Of course you can have some speed and some power but when you intend to gererate the maximum power, you will need that extra compression time. Unfortunately that extra compression time will make your punch not combat realistic.

All CMA systems try to achieve the maximum speed and maximum power. Some styles are famous by their speed generation method, and some styles are famous by there power generation method. It's very difficult to have both at the same time. A TCMA style that is famous in both power and speed will be the style that everybody want to train in. Someone created a style called "Baji Mantis" and tried to merge the best Fajing method and speed method. IMO, it's like to expect your wealth wife to cook. It's not easy.

[YungChun]

The WC Chain punches is just like the Mantis fast hand combo. It's famous in "speed" and not "power".

That's because people are not using body power. Mantis uses specialized finger/hand strikes (the mantis hand) as I recall which naturally would not use body power as VT does...



The quick compression and quick release usually generate less power than the slow compression and fast release.

Site the evidence which shows slow compression stores more energy than fast compression. Compression and loading of the springs equates to storing power... How fast that spring is loaded does not change how much power is stored but how quickly it is released will...and that still isn't speed, it's acceleration.

Time to store is also related to range of joint motions... The mechanics in VT allow for quick loading--it's right in the forms.



All CMA systems try to achieve the maximum speed and maximum power. Some styles are famous by their speed generation method, and some styles are famous by there power generation method. It's very difficult to have both at the same time. A TCMA style that is famous in both power and speed will be the style that everybody want to train in. Unfortunately, that style has not yet been created.
There is a difference between "speed" and timing and you are blurring the two... The timing for inside fighting is critical as is position/economy.. Ironically raw speed, not so much so, which you believe is emphasized in VT--it's not--timing is and we have the tools to use VT short timing.

Are you advocating arm punching?

Again, the egg beaters (arm power) is simply an anomaly which has propagated incorrectly because of a lack of understanding and applying the method. Correct VT strikes incorporate body power so the strikes must be linked with the body.. The body is the hammer, the arm is the nail.

[YouKnowWho]

There are 2 different kind of speed. The

- single move speed that your hand/foot travel in maximum speed. Of course you can have maximum speed and maximum power in this if all you care about is that single strike.
- combo speed that you can deliever many strikes in a short period of time. Speed and power will have problem in this situation.

All styles use "body unification power". The term "body power" even mentioned in none TCMA such as boxing. Again it's a relative term and not an absolute term. The southern CMA WC system uses the "square shoulder" approach which is different from the northern CMA Baji system that uses the linear shoulder approach. The speed and power trade off has already been decided there.

Again, it's very difficult to find a wife who is:

- rich, and also
- cook well. :D

[Hendrik]

You can see this clip has the maximum "power generation" method but between each punches, the speed is too slow to be combat realistic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihQuF4P687k



Evidentally, this above shows your in experience in TCMA training.


This is a drill for his maximum power generation to strech the practitioner's capability limit.

In real life one uses different power level based on the situation.



Also, the power generation occur in the short snap/whip extending within the routine drip. how slow could that snap extending be? one doesnt have to do the routine drip but could keep snapping/ whipping (dont have to extend out either) depend on one's capability limit as needed.

[YungChun]

There are 2 different kind of speed. The

- single move speed that your hand/foot travel in maximum speed. Of course you can have maximum speed and maximum power in this if all you care about is that single strike.
- combo speed that you can deliever many strikes in a short period of time. Speed and power will have problem in this situation.

All styles use "body unification power". The term "body power" even mentioned in none TCMA such as boxing. Again it's a relative term and not an absolute term. The southern CMA WC system uses the "square shoulder" approach which is different from the northern CMA Baji system that uses the linear shoulder approach. The speed and power trade off has already been decided there.

Again, it's very difficult to find a wife who is:

- rich, and also
- cook well. :D


What's your point? It sounded like you advocated punching "speed" over body connection.

[YouKnowWho]

What's your point?

You can't have "combo" speed (not single striking speed) and power at the same time.

Try to throw 5 punches in one second and measure how many pound of force that you can generate in each individual punches, you will find out that it's much less than a single punch that comes from the maximum compression. If you try this on a heavy bag, you can tell by the degree of your heavy bag bending.

The interest question may be, "If you can generate 50 lb of force on every punches, and if you can throw 5 punches in 1 second, when you hit all your 5 punches on your opponent's face, will your opponent receive 250 lb of force as a single blow?"

[YungChun]

You can't have "combo" speed (not sngle striking speed) and power at the same time. Try to throw 5 punches in one second and measure how many pound of force that you can generate in each punches, you will find out that it's much less than a single punch from the maximum compression.

You are making nebulous statements.. And the above is false if for no other reason than it generalizes..

Of course if I try to punch too fast I will lose power... that's why you shouldn't do that.. lol

A skilled puncher WILL make good tight quick very powerful combos.. VT power is enough to blast someone across a room and into a wall and you could do it on move 1 or move 3...

Is it possible that someone might be able to make a bit more power if he completely committed himself to one super powerful single shot?. Maybe but it means nothing...

I think you've latched onto a theory that does not pan out using good mechanics and a realistic application model.

[YungChun]

The body optimizes timing and power...

The point is to optimize these two as is needed in the moment as a whole.

David shows a great example of this balance of storing while releasing power:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgMVOTZ2bpk

Bottom line is the same for VT.. The body must coordinate the striking not the arms or some idea of over timing....and VT does offer more than one way to generate power, not just optimized for "combos"... It's right in the forms...

[YouKnowWho]

Again you are trying to reach to a goal that all TCMA guys want to reach. You may be more optimistic than I do. It's always a good thing to have strong faith in TCMA.

[YungChun]

Again you are trying to reach to a goal that all TCMA guys want to reach. You may be more optimistic than I do.

Again I don't know what your point is.. VT uses the body for power.. It also has more than one way to do this... In some cases you can use VT "short power" and in other cases you can use VT "sitting power" or in others you could use VT "long power"...

VT is flexible..

[Hendrik]

Your post has shown you might be good in punching and have heavy punch, however power generation is different animal. and to be good and know the process are a totally different story.


Hitting and Fajing or issuing force/momentum vectors are different things. Your previous example shows you are not familiar with Fajing but keep thinking Hitting is everything.





The quick compression and quick release usually generate less power than the slow compression and fast release. Both power and speed are relative terms.

Of course you can have some speed and some power but when you intend to gererate the maximum power, you will need that extra compression time. Unfortunately that extra compression time will make your punch not combat realistic.




This might be true for external muscular based system.

and still Boxer and externalist did an excellent job in maximize power and speed. So, there is no issue for combat realistic.

IE. a Kyokushin punch might not be the fastest in the world but it is fast enough and powerfull enough to do knock out. A MT round kick is not the fastest but power full, it also serve its purpose.


As for the internal TCMA, that is a different paradigm.





All CMA systems try to achieve the maximum speed and maximum power. Some styles are famous by their speed generation method, and some styles are famous by there power generation method. It's very difficult to have both at the same time.


Speed and maximum power is an individual Kung Fu's issue provided one has the process and train.

also, what you said in term of power generation doesnt make sense.

Momentum Generation is proper term instead of power generation. and Momentum = mass * speed.

Thus, in momentum generation if one could reach the maximum speed one got the max momentum. slow acceleration means low speed means low momentum means low power punch.







A TCMA style that is famous in both power and speed will be the style that everybody want to train in.


1, as above on momentum, you dont even know what are the core elements of momentum generation. you cant know how to generate the momentum except your mind think so. but your thinking is just your thinking.

2, you dont know the basic, you dont know TCMA. so how good is your ideas?





Someone created a style called "Baji Mantis" and tried to merge the best Fajing method and speed method. IMO, it's like to expect your wealth wife to cook. It's not easy.

I dont know Baji Mantis so I have no comment on it.


What I can says is advance internal TCMA such as Yee Chuan, Taiji, Hsing Yi.... and WCK.

The momentum generation are
1, a combination of a few different generators instead of just one generators.
2, it is like paralling a few flywheel and activate them in the same time.

Thus, it could achive, a fast acceleration, b, loose and fluid body, C, significant momentum pulse very effectively and efficient, D, intensity control for penetration or short gun effect.

[YouKnowWho]

Again I don't know what your point is..

You think to have both speed and power at the same time is possible. I think to reach to that goal is very difficult. We may just agree our disagreement on this.

[Hendrik]

Again you are trying to reach to a goal that all TCMA guys want to reach. You may be more optimistic than I do. It's always a good thing to have strong faith in TCMA.



I dont have strong faith in TCMA and my experience from the TCMA experts that I dont need a strong faith but a process to make things happen. and things do happen.

That you dont know and beyond your imagination.

[Hendrik]

You think to have both speed and power at the same time is possible. I think to reach to that goal is very difficult. We may just agree our disagreement on this.

you cant do it doesnt mean others cant.

All momentum is dependent on speed or acceleration that is the law of physics. how can one says one has the max speed and min momentum where other terms are the same?

[YouKnowWho]

2, you dont know the basic, you dont know TCMA. so how good is your ideas?

Do we have to get "YOU" or "I" involved in discussion?


All momentum is dependent on speed or acceleration that is the law of physics.
Again you are talking about "single punch" and I'm talking about "multiple punches".

F = MA

The more force that you can generate from your mass, the harder that you can pull that mass back and then move forward again (for your 2nd punch).

[Hendrik]

Do we have to get "YOU" or "I" involved in discussion?

That is just to identify your opnion instead of reality, nothing else.






Again you are talking about "single punch" and I'm talking about "multiple punches".

See, you use You here right? and I dont take it as anything else.



I am not talking about single or multiple punch,

I am talking a process of delivery momentum and how good is that process or system to deliver momentum when it is needed.







F = MA

The more force that you can generate from your mass, the harder that you can pull that mass back and then move forward again (for your 2nd punch).


you are totally correct if it is a linear motion and linear momentum and linear force and dead weight.

and also the way to increase the force from the same mass if to raise the acceleration or raise the speed.

Thus, it goes back to momentum = mass * speed. one needs the speed or acceleration to get higher force or momentum. this pointing to my view on the previous post. if one cant get max speed one cant get max momentum/ power.




However, advance TCMA is using Angular momentum and resonance or oscillatory phenomenon or flywheel or boomerang effect to re use energy and get best efficientcy so that is not the limitation.

Even Sun punch of WCK is a circular angular momentum generation using its snap back recoil to power the next punch.

one needs to aware of these above, or else how can one discuss? linear motion is just a small part of basic and simple momentum generation in a complex world called nature flow.

[YouKnowWho]

I am not talking about single or multiple punch,

I am talking a process of delivery momentum and how good is that process or system to deliver momentum when it is needed.
I think we are talking about something entirely different here. For "single punch", there is no conflect between power and speed. The maximum speed can generate the maximum power and there won't be any argument there. I'm only talking about whether it is possible to be able to generate 5 punches in 1 second and every punch will still have the maximum amount of power.

If you put your body behind your 1st punch, your body momentum will make it difficult for you to put your body behind your 2nd punch again. The more power that your have in your 1st punch, the harder it's for you to pull that punch back before you throw your 2nd punch. If you don't put your body behind your 1st punch, whether you are using linear or circular path, you are not going to generate the maximum power because you are not fully ustilize your mass.

[Hendrik]

I think we are talking about something entirely different here. For "single punch", there is no conflect between power and speed. The maximum speed can generate the maximum power and there won't be any argument there. I'm only talking about whether it is possible to be able to generate 5 punches in 1 second and every punch will still have the maximum amount of power.

If you put your body behind your 1st punch, your body momentum will make it difficult for you to put your body behind your 2nd punch again. The more power that your have in your 1st punch, the harder it's for you to pull that punch back before you throw your 2nd punch. If you don't put your body behind your 1st punch, whether you are using linear or circular path, you are not going to generate the maximum power because you are not fully ustilize your mass.


read my post again carefully and make sure you understand what I am posting.


IMHO, you have not master the handling of different momentum in the body and thus you see what you see. It is perfect for you, however, the reality is not as what you think with your limited experience. you still stuck in thinking everything is linear. watch out, I says angular momentum, I dont say linear or circular path.

No one needs to pull back that punch if one knows how to use the system momentum to support the second punch. and in fact, in Advance TCMA they never will do what you do or think the whole world is like that. The concept is called within Yin there is Yang and Within Yang there is Yin, meaning every strike needs to make use of the momentum from the previous.

in a mechanical sense, one can use the same flywheel without interupt it to power reverse or forward gear, left or right gear and multiple thrust, without has to monkey around with the same flywheel.

Throwing punches like you think are just not efficient at all not to mention, your type of punch can never develop in to fast accelerate close body inch power where every part of the body could be used and multiple impulse short could be triggled.


also


I'm only talking about whether it is possible to be able to generate 5 punches in 1 second and every punch will still have the maximum amount of power.

Is this practical for human? be realistic .

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;
May be we can compare different Fajin methods here. They all share the same principle and that is compress (slow) and release (fast). Please notice that the slow compress make the Fajin not combat realistic.

1. Chen Taiji Fajin:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g

----------------------------------------------------------------
You can have your opinion. But in mine you -per your comment- don't seem to understand
Chen Xiao Wang's fajin demo. That is a multiple fajin demo. In application with a single fajin it need not be slow.
But in a wc list discussion I will stop here.

joy chaudhuri

[FongSung]

If you put your body behind your 1st punch, your body momentum will make it difficult for you to put your body behind your 2nd punch again. The more power that your have in your 1st punch, the harder it's for you to pull that punch back before you throw your 2nd punch. If you don't put your body behind your 1st punch, whether you are using linear or circular path, you are not going to generate the maximum power because you are not fully ustilize your mass.

Hi YKW, I undestand what you are saying but it depends on how we use our body to punch.

A I understand it ("getting your body behind the punch") in WC mean:
1. position the body close enough to the enemy so you elbow is not extended
2. relax and let "fly' the arm/fist i.e throwing a dead weight (heavy)
3. allow the dead weight to continue on impact (ball & chain anology)
4. if the enemy doesn't fall back ie is strong or good structure use the bounce back/recoil/string action to bring the fist back simutianeously throwing the other arm/fist out (push/pull idea).

During this any time the enemy moves back we must use our footwork to follow (keeping the body behind the punch) and not leaning twisting torso etc. Of couse you can use footwork / stance change to change angle or rotate but you posture much be correct.

If body momentum is affecting a 2nd punch then it sounds likes over-commiting which is not done in WC.

My simple view on it :).

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;
May be we can compare different Fajin methods here. They all share the same principle and that is compress (slow) and release (fast). Please notice that the slow compress make the Fajin not combat realistic.

1. Chen Taiji Fajin:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxxebP0u31g

----------------------------------------------------------------
You can have your opinion. But in mine you -per your comment- don't seem to understand
Chen Xiao Wang's fajin demo. That is a multiple fajin demo. In application with a single fajin it need not be slow.
But in a wc list discussion I will stop here.

joy chaudhuri


Just to be straight forward, there is no signature that YKW know what is Fajing. So how can one discuss something one doesnt know?

[Hendrik]

If body momentum is affecting a 2nd punch then it sounds likes over-commiting which is not done in WC.



body momentum is always affecting the 2nd punch disregards of what.


this also is an indication of if one knows the six directional force vectors I am presenting or not. in this case, no.

[YouKnowWho]

Just to be straight forward, there is no signature that YKW know what is Fajing. So how can one discuss something one doesnt know?

OK, I know nothing about Fajin. If by putting me down will make you feel good. Go ahead and be my guest. :)

[Hendrik]

OK, I know nothing about Fajin. If by putting me down will make you feel good. Go ahead and be my guest. :)


I am just state a fact. and you always think personal.



If you know, then please share with us what is the different between Fajing and ordinary strike or hitting?

What is Fajing? What is the mechanics behind the fajin, including the momentum generation and the discharged? how does that different then striking/hitting with muscular force and body weight?

up to now, you have not present the above.

Could you get into technical?

[FongSung]

Regards momentum I interpreted it as following through, over extending, turning of torso to gain power.

I dun know about you guys but I am told my punches get heavier one after another. Saying that I don't like to chain punch more than 3 times b4 changing tactic. I can not prove that with words.
I figure as long as you r hitting the target you are regenerating power. But that's just me.

Like the founder of YiQuan had his sons doing post standing for years before any explaination, so I heard from direct student of his son. hmmm.
So like the Korean Bagua guy was told of by his master for trying to ask about and write down all theory. His master said just DO IT when you feel something tell me.:):cool::eek:

So you don't need fancy explainations to get results, just do it alot, the more familiar with .... argh what the heck I'm not this bored. ha ha anyway I just a student not so knowledgable.:o

[YouKnowWho]

I am just state a fact. and you always think personal.
Because I always respect other's opinion (even it's different from mine). I'll never put anybody down and say that person doesn't know this and that person doesn't know that.


If you know, then please share with us what is the different between Fajing and ordinary strike or hitting?

What is Fajing? What is the mechanics behind the fajin, including the momentum generation and the discharged? how does that different then striking/hitting with muscular force and body weight?

up to now, you have not present the above.

Could you get into technical?
Fajin = compress to the maximum + release to the maximum

I'll give a try on this. Since Baji is the only Fajin method that I'm familiar with, I'll use Baji as an example. In the Baji system, there are 3 different Fajin.

1. 沉墜勁 sinking power - stand both feet on your toes, sink your body to the ground and then send your downward punch out.

2. 十字勁 expending power - stand in bow-arrow stance, stand on your toes, send your cross punch out as far you can. When you can't go any futher, pull your punch back and send your other punch out.

3. 纏絲勁 twisting power - This is the most difficult one to generate. It's similiar to 十字勁 expending power but you let the power to sorround your body and then send it out.

Baji master Adam Hsu has a very detail explanation in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYikolf7udw&feature=related

You can see 沉墜勁 sinking power at 2.04, 十字勁 expending power at 2.33, and 纏絲勁 twisting power at 2.32 in the following clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCv9ueBI3VE&feature=related

[Hendrik]

]Because I always respect other's opinion (even it's different from mine). I'll never put anybody down and say that person doesn't know this and that person doesn't know that.

Respect others' opinion is great. However, there is a point that if the person is off the mark. then there is no way to continuous discussion going off the track, and directly tell the person, that is off mark.





Fajin = compress to the maximum + release to the maximum

This really is up to anyone's intepretation isnt it? It doesnt tell What and how isnt it?




I'll give a try on this. Since Baji is the only Fajin method that I'm familiar with, I'll use Baji as an example.

OK, Do you practice Baji?





In the Baji system, there are 3 different Fajin.

1. 沉墜勁 sinking power - stand both feet on your toes, sink your body to the ground and then send your downward punch out.

2. 十字勁 expending power - stand in bow-arrow stance, stand on your toes, send your cross punch out as far you can. When you can't go any futher, pull your punch back and send your other punch out.

3. 纏絲勁 twisting power - This is the most difficult one to generate. It's similiar to 十字勁 expending power but you let the power to sorround your body and then send it out.


this is a list of movements, still what is Fajing?
I give you a hint, What is Jing? what is fa? How to Fa? and What generate that Jing?





Baji master Adam Hsu has a very detail explanation in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYikolf7udw&feature=related

You can see 沉墜勁 sinking power at 2.04, 十字勁 expending power at 2.33, and 纏絲勁 twisting power at 2.32 in the following clip.


IMHO, Adam has touched the key lightly but he doesnt give details explanation. Thus, anyone following this clips unless already have train in Fajing will not be able to understand it or do it properly.







To those who is curious what I am saying, IMHO, using the Sinking power as example, Sinking power is just the Jack Demsey's Falling Step alike if one tear a part all the movements and get to the core.


So one could keep doing



1. 沉墜勁 sinking power - stand both feet on your toes, sink your body to the ground and then send your downward punch out. as what YKW wrote here and totally lost in the movements and mimicing. But never really know the "falling step" and cant have the power , cant develop it, cant applied it, because one lost in movements and whatever not.

one can practice mimic-ing the movements for decades and get knock out by a boxer's falling step punch but clueless of what is going on.

This is a big problem in TCMA.


if one knows fajin, one has to be able to read others jin or lik to a big extent.

Also if one know fajin then one will not make equavalent between Relax and six directional force vectors because they means different things and work in different domain.






I am not a Baji guy but a WCner, from my eyes of practicing the Yik Kam 4 section SLT, here is what I see, and
let me decode for you in the layman term in term of physics on the beauty of Baji fajin.

沉墜勁 sinking power = weight droping power/momentum
十字勁 expending power = friction + elastic power/momentum
纏絲勁 twisting power = angular/ rotational/ swing power/ momentum

in an advance level, these three will be fuse differently to applied.

The long Yik Kam 108 SLT has all of those however one needs to know where to look and the six directional force vectors is a tool to aware of it.


Thus, fajin is a handling of physical phenomenon it is not some moments which doesnt mean anything. and because it is about handling of physical phenomenon, it is called formless because it could take different forms.

Thus, in summary, there are lots of indication one could use to see through other's understanding in the subject. I dont like to be critical, however, to discuss something one needs certain level of background instead of like most of us thinking we know but we actually dont.

[Hendrik]

Personally, IMHO

Honest discussion and true cultivation of Advance TCMA is always difficult. and sometimes sad because one has to tear down everything one build up and starts from scratch. Not simple at all for me.

I remember while I am practicing a type of internal art, I am practicing for more then an hour per day every day and for about six years non stop, only to find out I still didnt get it and has to called Mainland China's sifu and start all over again.

I wish I have a sifu who could taught me everything I know today and that will save my decades of search and search and organize and ..... But then there is no one sifu could know it all...... so the saga continuous on...

Power generation? one couldnt even get the basic if there is no experience sifu who can applied it lively to teach one --- too subtle and lots of handling details in the begining.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9nIUqrZ5kY

[YouKnowWho]

Do you practice Baji?
I have trained Baji for the past 32 years.


like most of us thinking we know but we actually dont.
This kind of statement may make you feel good but may upset others. I won't make such statement if I were you.



沉墜勁 sinking power = weight droping power/momentum
十字勁 expending power = friction + elastic power/momentum
纏絲勁 twisting power = angular/ rotational/ swing power/ momentum .


1. 沉墜勁 sinking power - stand both feet on your toes, sink your body to the ground and then send your downward punch out.

2. 十字勁 expending power - stand in bow-arrow stance, stand on your toes, send your cross punch out as far you can. When you can't go any futher, pull your punch back and send your other punch out.

3. 纏絲勁 twisting power - This is the most difficult one to generate. It's similiar to 十字勁 expending power but you let the power to sorround your body and then send it out.
You are talking about general definition (abstract). I'm talking about how to train in order to get there (concrete). The abstract definition is not going to help anybody here but the concrete training method may.

[Hendrik]

I have trained Baji for the past 32 years.


Good to know. Thanks!

I would love to learn the Baji door opening elbow technics from you.





Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
like most of us thinking we know but we actually dont.



This kind of statement may make you feel good but may upset others. I won't make such statement if I were you.

I dont say it to feel good. I said it because it is a reality.
and you are correct it is political incorrect.

I sincerely appology if this straight talk offense anyone. I dont mean to be critical. but concern on missing an inch off a thousand mile.






You are talking about general definition (abstract). I'm talking about how to train in order to get there (concrete). The abstract definition is not going to help anybody here but the concrete training method may.


That I disagree with you.

What you describe is a series of moments it is in fact not concrete, it doesnt give the reason of doing it and the result need to be attain.

Even Adam Hsu's demontration is fuzzy because he is hiding the art. IMHO. Sorry to be straight forward. For example the reel silk or twisting generation needs to transport the jin to different part of body he didnt really emphasis in it while he is demonstrating that part.
However, anyone who know reel silk knows Adam is reeling silk at all of his demonstration. Take a look of his body.

What I describe is the principle it is not abstract at all.

The problem with following moments and dont know the principle is one could spend a life time on drilling but go no where.




For me,

according to your post in Baji, three basic types of power/momentum generation or force issuing methods are:


1, using of droping body weight. 2, using of friction and elasticity, 3, using of angular momentum.


and at advance level one will be expected to combine all of these.


or going throught the process below:


using the dropping of body weight to generate the first innertial,

then using the friction and elasticity to amplified it,

and then using angular momentum to transmitting to different part of the body and making use of the past momentum.


Without knowing this will have no direction to train even if one follow the instruction one still dont know what is one doing and expect to achieve.

With mastering of the above principle one could use any shape to fajin. IMHO.

And as you know, jin can be issue via different part of the body with the generator not turning off. That is my point to you on all other posts. The generator is not turning off and on and off but keep it on just changing the "gear" to issue from left or right or up or down or ....


That is what I pick up via my SLT training, because SLT means to "know your opponents' art via the details training" I could be wrong because I am not a Baji guy. However, if I meet a Baji opponents I have to sparing with, I would use the above as reference to know his power type.


just my opinion, you dont have to agree with me.

[IRONMONK]

now this is real punching power :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLQlyuXgQ1w

[Graham H]

now this is real punching power :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLQlyuXgQ1w

Funny I thought that this was a Wing Chun forum. Why post a boxers clip???

Here is one of equal importance to this forum!!! :D:D:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5Y_e5rHj7g

GH

[Wu Wei Wu]

The poster of the boxing clip probably thought that if the discussion was about punching then we should look at the training methods of good punchers. Seems to make sense, no?

Suki

[YouKnowWho]

The poster of the boxing clip probably thought that if the discussion was about punching then we should look at the training methods of good punchers. Seems to make sense, no?

Suki

Agree 100% with you there. We TCMA guys just can't assume that only TCMA people know how to Fajin. Boxers are good at it too. They just do it and don't take much about it. it's our TCMA who love to do more talking than doing. :D

When you stand in front of a heavy bag, whatever that you can move that heavy bag, that will the the true Fajin and not just punching in the thin air like those clips that I had presented.

Even if we discuss WC here (I trained WC since 1974), we should not ignore other's opinion from other styles.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Fajin = subjective experience, cannot be taught... only interpreted

Power (in punching or as another dynamic) = objective, measurable, results oriented. can be taught in terms of dynamics, training methods, mechanics.

which would you choose... esoteric puffery or a method for increased punch power?

Suki

[YouKnowWho]

I like to train Fajin in the thin air by the TCMA Fajin method. I also like to train my Fajin on my heavy bag. I don't believe Fajin in the thin air only is sufficient like most people believe.

[Niersun]

Happy new year all.

The scientific way is to increase strength and speed in your punching action. Close grip push ups real fast until fail.

Grip strength also has alot to do with it, especially when clenching your fist just before impact and punching through. Strengthening your bones in your hands can produce this.

But, im sure a few people on here will disagree

[Sardinkahnikov]

Happy new year all.

The scientific way is to increase strength and speed in your punching action. Close grip push ups real fast until fail.

Grip strength also has alot to do with it, especially when clenching your fist just before impact and punching through. Strengthening your bones in your hands can produce this.

But, im sure a few people on here will disagree

Interesting take; they say that Bruce Lee was a big believer in grip/forearm strenght to increase punching power.

In WCK, despite my brief expose to the style, I managed to develop a somewhat decent jing choi by simply practicing it over and over again, paying attention to how I was using my elbow and keeping my hips tucked in. I found it also important to try to not engage the back or the shoulder muscles - mostly by not letting the elbow retract and go past the body a la boxing, using the body to drive it instead. When practicing against someone it's hard to not tense your shoulder or back, so this is a very important point to consider, IMO. In the end, I was under the impression that I was launching the fist with the center of my body.

Sincerely, all this discussion about fajin or whatnot simply goes over my head and makes it spin, since I can't read chinese nor have I anything more than a superficial understanding of such concepts. The key to powerful punches, I think, is in (proper) practice, however.

[Niersun]

[QUOTE=Sardinkahnikov;1071412]Interesting take; they say that Bruce Lee was a big believer in grip/forearm strenght to increase punching power.

[QUOTE]

No doubt.

You know, certain grips are banned in boxing for that very fact. It increase your punching power upon impact.

[Yoshiyahu]

[QUOTE=Sardinkahnikov;1071412]Interesting take; they say that Bruce Lee was a big believer in grip/forearm strenght to increase punching power.

[QUOTE]

No doubt.

You know, certain grips are banned in boxing for that very fact. It increase your punching power upon impact.

What Grips were those?

[m1k3]

[QUOTE=Sardinkahnikov;1071412]Interesting take; they say that Bruce Lee was a big believer in grip/forearm strenght to increase punching power.

[QUOTE]

No doubt.

You know, certain grips are banned in boxing for that very fact. It increase your punching power upon impact.


This is humor right? Please let it be humor, please. :eek::eek::eek:

[t_niehoff]

This is humor right? Please let it be humor, please. :eek::eek::eek:

Most things on this forum are humor -- unintentional perhaps, but very funny nonetheless.

[Niersun]

[QUOTE=Niersun;1071415][QUOTE=Sardinkahnikov;1071412]Interesting take; they say that Bruce Lee was a big believer in grip/forearm strenght to increase punching power.




This is humor right? Please let it be humor, please. :eek::eek::eek:


I was referring to wraps.

[Yoshiyahu]

Niersun you never answered my question?

[Niersun]

Niersun you never answered my question?

Sorry, if you never heard of them. But you can get wraps that are have a heavier material, and that are longer in length. This gives you are tighter clench of the fist. Wont find them on the sports section though.

You create your own and stitch padding on the inside and on the outside.

Why, hope you dont plan on cheating in a tournament.

[Yoshiyahu]

Sorry, if you never heard of them. But you can get wraps that are have a heavier material, and that are longer in length. This gives you are tighter clench of the fist. Wont find them on the sports section though.

You create your own and stitch padding on the inside and on the outside.

Why, hope you dont plan on cheating in a tournament.

ooh never mind...Wraps huh...no offense Im sorry i asked you to explain...I feel like the fool for humoring you. I thought you had some insight i didnt have on bruce lees or someones elses training...Never mind.

[Yoshiyahu]

Along with practicing SLT and WC Chi Kung here are some videos that can Help one train power generation...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUCqkOnyqOQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-c4NZqejXg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVWKTg4AUBk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLrFcHZDjuM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9JjSB7fBY8&feature=related



modify the training in this video to work with sunfist body mechanics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geE1fmnoWBM&feature=related

[Niersun]

ooh never mind...Wraps huh...no offense Im sorry i asked you to explain...I feel like the fool for humoring you. I thought you had some insight i didnt have on bruce lees or someones elses training...Never mind.

Its the same principle. Increase the strength in the clench of your fist by increasing the grip strength. This increasing the hardness in your punch.

Thats why certain wraps are banned in boxing.

[Yoshiyahu]

check out these videos...


Along with practicing SLT and WC Chi Kung here are some videos that can Help one train power generation...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUCqkOnyqOQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-c4NZqejXg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVWKTg4AUBk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLrFcHZDjuM


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9JjSB7fBY8&feature=related



modify the training in this video to work with sunfist body mechanics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geE1fmnoWBM&feature=related

[backyard1]

After almost 20 years of WC I couldnt care less about it..a punch is a punch. If someones understanding of WC is so shallow as to pick us up on chain punching or a 1 inch punch then why bother about them? Just ignore them.

[hakarac]

Hi guys.

I teach Hakarac Martial Boxing, a system that has incorporated boxing and WC into an effective self defence and ring sport. We regularly compete and beat western boxers, claiming state and national titles in Australia.

The way that i train my students for power is diverse based on their physical attributes.
These are my recommendations to acquire power:

- Set the body to generate power (have both feet planted)
- Strike a hard heavy bag hard (10 minutes a day)
- Use the rotation of shoulders, hips, knee and heal (or do it in reverse)
- Set and strike with forward motion (bending the knees)
- Strike through and not to the target (impact not contact)
- Set up with one strike to generate power with the other

Hope these help.

[Lee Chiang Po]

The power and speed are always contradict to each other. If you start with your left shoulder forward and your right hand on your right waist, you then send your right shoulder forward when you punch so your right hand can have the maximum traveling path. You should be able to generate the maximum amout of power. The problem is this will violate the WC "chain punches" principle that all punches start from the center of your chest (shortest distance). When you use "square shoulder" principle, you can have the fastest punches but since your body is not going to twist from one maximum to the other maximum, you just won't be able to generate the maximum amount of power.

You can see this clip has the maximum "power generation" method but between each punches, the speed is too slow to be combat realistic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihQuF4P687k

you don't seem to be in full understanding of the WC punch.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Not being a troll or trying to start a fight here, but I have been reading all the posts here and the arguement is about how to go about developing power in the WC punch. However, in several of the posts I have noticed that some tend to be argueing with a less than accurate understanding of the WC punch. Comparing or trying to inject boxing technique into WC does not really work, and because I think most people here have started out with boxing maybe, they tend to look at everything from that focus.

[Vajramusti]

Not being a troll or trying to start a fight here, but I have been reading all the posts here and the arguement is about how to go about developing power in the WC punch. However, in several of the posts I have noticed that some tend to be argueing with a less than accurate understanding of the WC punch. Comparing or trying to inject boxing technique into WC does not really work, and because I think most people here have started out with boxing maybe, they tend to look at everything from that focus.
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Good post.

joy chaudhuri