Development

[Dave McKinnon]

I don't even know what to name the thread...

We all seem to disagree and talk past each other on technique and application. To use the analogy of football we all have different players, different strategies and different attributes but we are all playing on the same field with the same tools and to some degree the same ball. So instead of disagreeing on what plays are best or how to set up the best offense or defense, lets talk how to develop the team.

Lets talk about:

Skill Development
Attribute development
Tactical Skill Development
Developing the ability to apply WCK dynamically in Chi Sao, Sparring and Fighting situations


I will post my answers in a little bit.

Dave

[Ultimatewingchun]

For the moment, I'll just talk a bit about some attribute development. Just came back from the gym, where amoungst other things, I frequently pound on the heavy bag: punches, kicks, elbows, knees.

And I also had a heavy bag set up in my last Brooklyn, NY school before I moved to Virginia Beach about ten weeks ago.

I believe working a heavy bag is an absolute must for any striking art - including wing chun.

[Dave McKinnon]

So you use a heavy bag for attribute development. Is that all you use it for?

[Ultimatewingchun]

I use it to help develop the proper coordination of my wrists and fists when striking hard from various angles and distances, and of course how to deliver power from the ground up through the legs and the entire body against a heavy object....and for some footwork and distancing...as well as broken rhythms and interruptions...coordinating speed and power dynamics as I move around the bag...into the bag...away from it, and so on.

Judging (based on distance) when to use this kick, that kick, a knee instead of a kick, and elbow instead of a punch, sometimes even a palm strike instead of a fist....since the bag is in constant motion.

I should also mention that I'm a believer in crosstraining - and so I incorporate more than wing chun strikes and kicks into this kind of training - also using stiff leads and rear crosses, hooks, uppercuts, overhands, roundhouse kicks from both the front and rear leg, straight rear front kicks, straight lead leg push and snap kicks, wing chun heel kicks, etc.

Combinations like leads and crosses into a closer range vertical fist wing chun chain punch sequence, and so on.

It's about speed, timing, keeping my structure intact as I deliver blows, developing combinations, developing power on the strikes and kicks, and about getting good with distance. Sometimes I might even just wrap the bag into a clinch, or a pull and elbow combo.

Just one very good tool in the box.

[Ultimatewingchun]

situations...

assumes, of course, that one has learned not only good chi sao, but has been instructed (and then has further developed on his own) how to take the principles, strategies and techniques learned in chi sao - and use them in fighting, realistic sparring, etc....

in ways that actually work.

[t_niehoff]

I don't even know what to name the thread...

We all seem to disagree and talk past each other on technique and application. To use the analogy of football we all have different players, different strategies and different attributes but we are all playing on the same field with the same tools and to some degree the same ball.


I disagree with your analogy. I don't think most people are PLAYING THE GAME at all -- and that is the problem. That's WHY we talk past each other, argue, etc.



So instead of disagreeing on what plays are best or how to set up the best offense or defense, lets talk how to develop the team.

Lets talk about:

Skill Development
Attribute development
Tactical Skill Development
Developing the ability to apply WCK dynamically in Chi Sao, Sparring and Fighting situations



My view is that ALL of that comes ONLY from PLAYING THE GAME. You learn and develop your boxing by and through boxing, not by not boxing.

[Dave McKinnon]

I agree most people don't spar or do a bad job at it. But my question around development of skills, attributes and tactics.

You are wrong about it all coming from playing the game if we are taking a new student or even if a WC practitioner who never sparred before started working at it.

If a new student walks in the door, you stick gloves on his hands and put him in a sparring situation he is going to be OTF (out there flapping). Worse he will develop a lot of bad habits he cannot self correct without a base in some system of combat. I don't think it takes to many hours before a student should start sparring and doing chi sao but just fighting is not the answer.

We can look at a good boxing workout as a continuum of learning boxing as an art.
Rope work/ Calisthenics--> Shadow boxing --> Partner drill and/or focus mitt training --> Bag training --> Sparring

At each of these steps a student is building attributes and working techniques in a manner congruent with fighting. During focus mitt training and sparring students are applying similar tactical principles to fighting. One with a coach who challenges the student to adhere to the principles while practicing combination and sticking to good boxing form and during sparring against a resisting opponent. As skill improves it can be applied better in the ring through striking and application of boxing tactics. It also offers a base to analyze to adjust the game.

I would say a brand new student needs to spend 75% in practice and drill and 25% in sparring. After a while I think it should transition to more drilling of specific techniques (as in specific combinations of strikes as in boxing or specific sequences of passing the guard as in JJ) and sparring.

[t_niehoff]

I agree most people don't spar or do a bad job at it. But my question around development of skills, attributes and tactics.


Exactly. And those things come from playing the game.



You are wrong about it all coming from playing the game if we are taking a new student or even if a WC practitioner who never sparred before started working at it.

If a new student walks in the door, you stick gloves on his hands and put him in a sparring situation he is going to be OTF (out there flapping). Worse he will develop a lot of bad habits he cannot self correct without a base in some system of combat. I don't think it takes to many hours before a student should start sparring and doing chi sao but just fighting is not the answer.


Yeah, but you said "develop" not learn. Obviously beginners need to learn the fundamentals before they can begin trying to develop them.



We can look at a good boxing workout as a continuum of learning boxing as an art.
Rope work/ Calisthenics--> Shadow boxing --> Partner drill and/or focus mitt training --> Bag training --> Sparring


Actually, that isn't a continuum since you do ALL of them every time you train (except when you are a beginner and need to learn the skills).



At each of these steps a student is building attributes and working techniques in a manner congruent with fighting. During focus mitt training and sparring students are applying similar tactical principles to fighting. One with a coach who challenges the student to adhere to the principles while practicing combination and sticking to good boxing form and during sparring against a resisting opponent. As skill improves it can be applied better in the ring through striking and application of boxing tactics. It also offers a base to analyze to adjust the game.


I see what you are talking about -- making what we do in training more closely match what we do in fighting. I agree. There should be a 1 to 1 to 1 correspondence between what we learn to do, what we practice doing, and then what we do. In that way, we can actually do in sparring exactly what we learn and practice. That's the sport-model approach in a nutshell.



I would say a brand new student needs to spend 75% in practice and drill and 25% in sparring. After a while I think it should transition to more drilling of specific techniques (as in specific combinations of strikes as in boxing or specific sequences of passing the guard as in JJ) and sparring.

I think it really depends on the student.

[jesper]

I would say a brand new student needs to spend 75% in practice and drill and 25% in sparring. After a while I think it should transition to more drilling of specific techniques (as in specific combinations of strikes as in boxing or specific sequences of passing the guard as in JJ) and sparring.

Not all learn the same way.
Some need it explained in detail while others just need it shown.

[Dave McKinnon]

Everything I have read on developing athletes goes with what you both said. Developing athletes have to be tailored to the student. I agree.

If it was fighting we can show the techniques, let them feel the techniques, describe the techniques, use video etc. But as adamant as T is about getting in and sparring, I am also adamant about getting in and practicing and not talking. I think instruction should be short and concise and to the point. To many TCMA wax on about this and that without giving a practicable instruction. I also think to many mma teachers say "do like I do" and don't give as much theory/ tactics as they could to be useful to some students.

One way I solved this with my students is to have a monthly seminar pertaining to the training we are currently doing where I give a brain dump of information including technique, tactics, drills and the essence of the sparring for that drill (pummel, rolling, chi sao, free sparring etc). That way during regular classes I can reference it and guide practice into more realistic training. By realistic I am referring to less learning and more doing.

Dave McKinnon

[jesper]

Problem is that very few teachers are actually good at it.
Like with other aspects of life I guess :)

In order to be a good teacher you really need to be able to set apart your different students and look at their needs.

Some learn faster, some slower.
Some need alot of guiding, some very little.
Some have a theoretically approach, some a hands on.
Some train to become badass competition fighters, others just want to be able to handle themselves in a barfight


Then you have different builds you need to consider.
Some are very big and muscular, some are small and frail.
Some have one form of dissability or another.
Some are fearless, others are more cautious.
Some are intelligent and others are.... well duh :D

While in the end you should strive for them to reach THEIR end goal, you really need to make a different plan for each.

[Dave McKinnon]

Jesper

That becomes crippling like trying to figure out and teach every technique that can be used in a possible situation.

There is a baseline of technique and tactics that everyone can learn then through drill and sparring and correction form a confident coach they will develop as their athleticism and mentality permit.

What is that base line skill and knowledge and how does your training develop it?

Dave

[Wayfaring]

Exactly. And those things come from playing the game.


One interesting counterpoint to this I've heard recently was someone who attended a Rickson Gracie seminar and stated that he said that people should do more positional rolling than free rolling.

That's not really an antithesis to what you are saying, but it is saying that the realistic breakdown that helps people learn the quickest can be alive drills that are limited in scope to a particular area of the fight.

[anerlich]

While in the end you should strive for them to reach THEIR end goal, you really need to make a different plan for each.

IMO this only applies to beginners. Intermediate and advanced students should be determining their own goals, and developing their own approaches. They should be looking at the spectrum of what you're showing them and determining what does and doesn't work for them. They should be able to solve problems on their own or with their peers with only occasional guidance from an instructor.

If they need to be spoon fed beyond the beginning stages, I would be running out of patience with them. This ain't child minding.

You need to teach them how to train and how to learn themselves. Unless you want to be the GodSifu tending his rice bowl.


One interesting counterpoint to this I've heard recently was someone who attended a Rickson Gracie seminar and stated that he said that people should do more positional rolling than free rolling.

That's not really an antithesis to what you are saying, but it is saying that the realistic breakdown that helps people learn the quickest can be alive drills that are limited in scope to a particular area of the fight.

Agree 100%.

[jesper]

Jesper

That becomes crippling like trying to figure out and teach every technique that can be used in a possible situation.

There is a baseline of technique and tactics that everyone can learn then through drill and sparring and correction form a confident coach they will develop as their athleticism and mentality permit.

What is that base line skill and knowledge and how does your training develop it?

Dave

Now you go and get practical on me. shame on you :D

I know in Real life you need to make compromises at least if you have more then a couple students

[jesper]

IMO this only applies to beginners. Intermediate and advanced students should be determining their own goals, and developing their own approaches. They should be looking at the spectrum of what you're showing them and determining what does and doesn't work for them. They should be able to solve problems on their own or with their peers with only occasional guidance from an instructor.


absolutely correct.

Just remember that some are more quickly ready to fly on their own and the good teacher will spot that

[couch]

Now you go and get practical on me. shame on you :D

I know in Real life you need to make compromises at least if you have more then a couple students

Exactly. That's why I don't agree with going to class. We all get lost in a class. I don't get lost when I pay for private lessons from a boxing coach or BJJ instructor. It's the same for any endeavour.

[anerlich]

Exactly. That's why I don't agree with going to class. We all get lost in a class. I don't get lost when I pay for private lessons from a boxing coach or BJJ instructor. It's the same for any endeavour.

The value of a class is practising with/against a variety of body types, strategies, and approaches. You need to train with people less as well as more skilled than you. Some guys in the classes I attend know more about some specific skills and aspects of training than the chief instructor does. Training with the masses gives you realistic feedback of your skills against the spectrum of skill levels, more so than training with the instructor privately does. I don't think I'd enjoy training a quarter as much if I only trained privately.

That said, a really good private lesson can be as valuable as six months of class training, and I have experienced this myself. But IMO they should be supplements to class training rather than the main course.

[Dave McKinnon]

We are still talking about elements of development.

Does anyone think they have a cohesive way of teaching that can take a student from incompetence to competence or from armchair to in the ring in six months or a year or?

If so what is it?

Dave

[Wayfaring]

We are still talking about elements of development.

Does anyone think they have a cohesive way of teaching that can take a student from incompetence to competence or from armchair to in the ring in six months or a year or?

I don't think that just a cohesive way of teaching can do this alone. You also need to build an environment for this. The fundamental areas are striking, wrestling, grappling, and conditioning. So there is periodization involved in blending all those together as well as just the fundamentals of this. Also, it helps to have a team environment where others have already done this. Also, there are very few people around that are competant enough to instruct in all 4 areas of these skillsets. So you kind of need a coaching team too. Then there's nutrition as well, which has to be taught usually. But with the proper environment, program, and instruction all put together it is possible.

[LoneTiger108]

Exactly. That's why I don't agree with going to class. We all get lost in a class. I don't get lost when I pay for private lessons from a boxing coach or BJJ instructor. It's the same for any endeavour.

I find your comment most interesting because although I had the access to learn privately, and that was very beneficial for my 'studies', I found that most of my drilling (hard training) was completed in groups/teams.

Maybe this was because that was my Sifus aim, to prepare teams, but I can't see how you can actually train certain areas of WCK without a team. I have to also admit, this is more difficult when you get older!! I miss having a team around me to be honest.

[LoneTiger108]

We are still talking about elements of development.

Does anyone think they have a cohesive way of teaching that can take a student from incompetence to competence or from armchair to in the ring in six months or a year or?

If so what is it?

Dave

I believe I do have a 'way' that will do this. But I find far too many people tend to shy away from the more traditional models I'm talking about.

Check my thread on Using 5 Elements to teach Wing Chun
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59087

Specifically look at the construct I mention. I believe that without covering all 5 areas of training, which you can do intensively, you will not do yourself or Wing Chun much justice at all. If you do train thoroughly over a short period of time you will know yourself how rapid the progress actually is.

Within three months I would need min 6hrs per week with a total beginner and they would have to work on things at home too! In my days learning it was common for some of us to be with the Sifu for over 25hrs a week!

[couch]

The value of a class is practising with/against a variety of body types, strategies, and approaches. You need to train with people less as well as more skilled than you. Some guys in the classes I attend know more about some specific skills and aspects of training than the chief instructor does. Training with the masses gives you realistic feedback of your skills against the spectrum of skill levels, more so than training with the instructor privately does. I don't think I'd enjoy training a quarter as much if I only trained privately.

That said, a really good private lesson can be as valuable as six months of class training, and I have experienced this myself. But IMO they should be supplements to class training rather than the main course.

I totally agree.

I guess I was incomplete in my description of what would be optimal. In learning a skill, I think private lessons are best. Of course in applying that skill, I think that many body types are important.

Example: I spend private time with my boxing coach and he trains me on the mitts and puts me through my paces. He also sets up sparring time and is in my corner when I'm sparring giving me advice. If I tried to do all that in a class-type setting, it would take much longer for all that to evolve and I'd get lost between other folks trying to do the same thing (or even worse: other folks NOT trying to do the same thing).

[couch]

I find your comment most interesting because although I had the access to learn privately, and that was very beneficial for my 'studies', I found that most of my drilling (hard training) was completed in groups/teams.

Maybe this was because that was my Sifus aim, to prepare teams, but I can't see how you can actually train certain areas of WCK without a team. I have to also admit, this is more difficult when you get older!! I miss having a team around me to be honest.

Perhaps I was incomplete in my explanation. See above as I've tried to do better.

Basically, I think I'm advocating 'paying to get taken care of' instead of going to class and getting lost in the masses.

Just my personal experience, that's all.

[t_niehoff]

In learning a skill, I think private lessons are best. Of course in applying that skill, I think that many body types are important.

Example: I spend private time with my boxing coach and he trains me on the mitts and puts me through my paces. He also sets up sparring time and is in my corner when I'm sparring giving me advice. If I tried to do all that in a class-type setting, it would take much longer for all that to evolve and I'd get lost between other folks trying to do the same thing (or even worse: other folks NOT trying to do the same thing).

Quoted for truth.

[LoneTiger108]

Example: I spend private time with my boxing coach and he trains me on the mitts and puts me through my paces. He also sets up sparring time and is in my corner when I'm sparring giving me advice. If I tried to do all that in a class-type setting, it would take much longer for all that to evolve and I'd get lost between other folks trying to do the same thing (or even worse: other folks NOT trying to do the same thing).

Makes better sense now.

Just to be clear too, this 'team' approach works best with 8-10, and they're all watched by elders and the Sifu and given advice throughout. But I see what you mean. You learn better as an individual as most do, but I would advise that you find a good team if you want rapid development.