ignorant people frown on forms

[uki]

some ignorant people like to deride the use of forms, yet practicing forms has been established and continued for thousands of years even still to this day... why on earth should we believe that forms have suddenly become obsolete in the face of modern McMartial Arts??? :D

[SoCo KungFu]

For thousands of years the Etoro of New Guinea believe you're born with a limited supply of semen and boys perform oral sex for men to receive their sperm for later use in life. Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean its correct. Only an idiot blindly follows tradition.

[uki]

Only an idiot blindly follows tradition.so MMA is the new tradition, eh?? :p

[David Jamieson]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the Pharisees have spoken, take your places and make your bets! :p

[uki]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the Pharisees have spoken, take your places and make your bets!bah... the pharisee's have a temple that has been torn in two. :D

[David Jamieson]

bah... the pharisee's have a temple that has been torn in two. :D

...or possibly three, maybe 4, but who's counting?

[David Jamieson]

For thousands of years the Etoro of New Guinea believe you're born with a limited supply of semen and boys perform oral sex for men to receive their sperm for later use in life. Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean its correct. Only an idiot blindly follows tradition.

There's a tribe of pedo bears?

[uki]

...or possibly three, maybe 4, but who's counting?good question. ;)

[uki]

There's a tribe of pedo bears?he is obviously an expert on the subject. :D

[David Jamieson]

he is obviously an expert on the subject. :D

vacation planning is all the rage I hear...

[uki]

vacation planning is all the rage I hear...it's all about quantity and not quality...

[David Jamieson]

it's all about quantity and not quality...

but which bear is the best bear?

HINT:
http://www.byronbear.com/images/album/black_bear_05_d091.jpg

[uki]

but which bear is the best bear?papa bear has the biggest bed, chair, and bowl of porridge.

[David Jamieson]

papa bear has the biggest bed, chair, and bowl of porridge.

Incorrect, it is:

http://www.byronbear.com/images/album/black_bear_05_d091.jpg

[uki]

that looks like the record setting 875 lb black bear shot near me that was hand fed and ate out of dumpsters... some dumb a$$ redneck claimed this poor ursus and brags about it now... :mad:

[tactical-nuke]

i dont frown on chocolate i know it tastes nice and looks good sometimes, but everyone knows its the "meat and potatoes" that provide the nutrition

same with forms they look pretty, but for the most part dont do nearly as much for you as fighting lifting weights sparring and hitting the bag.

[SoCo KungFu]

Forms can break monotony. And doing some forms with really heavy weapons are decent and fun workout. But the number of martial arts that produce competent fighters in the complete absence of forms is all you need to see the irrelevance of forms in the grand scheme of things. But hey people always turn a blind eye to the obvious so whatever.

Anyways the original premise of this thread is flawed to begin with. Forms have not become obsolete in the face of MMA. They were always inadequate training tools to begin with. Its only recently because of things like MMA that people are actually giving a crap and calling it out. But lets be real martial artists have always been a bit of a joke to the majority of people anyways so whatever. At least down here. You tell someone you did karate or whatever then prepare to get hazed.

[Hardwork108]

some ignorant people like to deride the use of forms, yet practicing forms has been established and continued for thousands of years even still to this day... why on earth should we believe that forms have suddenly become obsolete in the face of modern McMartial Arts??? :D

Good post Uki.

Most people who generalise about forms in calling them out and out useless have never practiced kung fu for real and could not use it to save their lives. Of course, this does not mean that the same people can't fight proficiently using other methodlogies, but their other skills are irrelevant when they are discussing and demeaning TCMA methodologies that they do not understand, in a TCMA forum.

As for forms. I would say that there is more than one type of forms training. Before one can say that this type of training is useless, one has to know the different forms training methodologies. How many of those people who disgard forms here in this forum know of these different forms training methodologies?

Another point I would like to make is that it is true that one, depending on the TCMA style he practices, can learn to use kung fu techniques without forms practice, but that does not mean that forms are "useless", "out of date" or "fantasy", as promoted by our resident glorified kickboxers.

Forms have their place in TCMA methodologies as a part of multilevel training which will involve external and internal conditioning, two man training, IP and so on.

[goju]

bas ruttens comments on the usefulness of kata pretty much sums it up

they are just a god work out if done with full speed and power and are good to build coordination when you first start out

[Hardwork108]

For thousands of years the Etoro of New Guinea believe you're born with a limited supply of semen and boys perform oral sex for men to receive their sperm for later use in life. Just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean its correct. Only an idiot blindly follows tradition.

There are hundreds of thousands of people being "hurt", or killed by modern medicine and medical practices, not to mention scientifically developed food additives.

That does not mean that "only an idiot" would follow modern science!

[RenDaHai]

Anyone who thinks forms are useless has never really trained them.

In old forms (from the north) the movements are EXTREME. Why is this good? Because when you first practice the move, you can't do it at all, but because its in the form you keep working at it until you can do it quickly. This increases the RANGE of movement available to you.

Many of you spend hours increasing strength, and thats great. but most people increase strength over a small range of movement that they were already strong at. Forms force you into contorted positions quickly. They increase the RANGE of movement for every group of muscles in the body.

If you have ever Really practiced forms, and i mean REally, you will notice the difference next time you spar.

Because of increased waist flexibility you will punch one inch further, and that makes all the difference. When you duck you will duck that much lower, and faster. IT effects every move you make.

What I find amusing is many of you who bash forms have probably never even tried them properly.

Lastly southern forms and northern forms are very different. Some southern ones are just hand moves and a less useful, but northern forms require the whole body movement. Require SHEN FA. Some norhern forms have remained largely unchanged for 1000 years. THis is not true in the south where the age is closer to 300. SInce china has been closed off for so long most of the kung fu we have in the west is from isolated pockets like hong kong and taiwan. Most of you have probably never even seen real northern kung fu.

ANYWAY, DONT KNOCK SOMETHING TILL YOU TRY IT.

Do 3 months of modern wushu (sine it is form only) or gymnastics and see how much it improves your ability in sparring. I guarantee you won't be dissapointed. AGILITY IS EVERYTHING! Muscle is function specific and range of useful motion is more important than being strong over a small distance.

I agree some katas the way you guys do them may not be so useful but most ancient form in northern china is more like this;

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XOTI2NDYxODg=.html

(Shaolin Da Hong Quan)

[TenTigers]

Anyways the original premise of this thread is flawed to begin with. Forms have not become obsolete in the face of MMA. They were always inadequate training tools to begin with. Its only recently because of things like MMA that people are actually giving a crap and calling it out.
oh bullsh1t. Except for a very few forms that are used for very specific developmental training, forms are NOT a training method, not shadowboxing, not a tool, but a textbook, and in most cases, reserved only for lineage bearers(sp?)
let this crap go already. It's a stupid conversation.

[SoCo KungFu]

oh bullsh1t. Except for a very few forms that are used for very specific developmental training, forms are NOT a training method, not shadowboxing, not a tool, but a textbook, and in most cases, reserved only for lineage bearers(sp?)
let this crap go already. It's a stupid conversation.

Really? You really just said a joke of a post like this? You of all people? Tell ya what tell that to the dime a dozen sifu out there using forms to teach their students. Reserved for lineage bearers? Is that why there's only about 100 kids doing forms comp and maybe 4 entering san shou?

Look I realize how YOU teach is one thing. But what you are doing is NOT what the masses are doing. I can't count how many times you and Earthdragon and Mooying and the like keep saying, "Y'all need to see more kung fu schools." No, YOU need to see more kung fu schools. I myself have been in 5 different ones. ALL of them, the first thing they try to do is teach forms. Poster after poster comes on here with the same story, the kwoons they are going in are all doing nothing but forms. Any kung fu tourny you go to, 50-100 people doing forms comp that takes up 2-3 days of judging. You're lucky if there's anyone to fight in your weight in san shou. Hell even technical sparring might get all of a dozen participants. Go to the park, people are smoking cigs and doing forms. Everything in kung fu has been relegated to forms. Hell even conditioning (iron wire, etc). I want to see legit kung fu make it as much as anybody. Because it does have a lot of history and its the first art I fell in love with. But the majority of the masses, all they are doing is forms forms forms. That's just the reality of it.

I agree, forms are NOT a training method. But 9 out of 10 sifu are using them for that very purpose.

[hskwarrior]

I love forms.....they are my only friends. :D

[TenTigers]

Really? You really just said a joke of a post like this? You of all people? Tell ya what tell that to the dime a dozen sifu out there using forms to teach their students. Reserved for lineage bearers? Is that why there's only about 100 kids doing forms comp and maybe 4 entering san shou?

Look I realize how YOU teach is one thing. But what you are doing is NOT what the masses are doing. I can't count how many times you and Earthdragon and Mooying and the like keep saying, "Y'all need to see more kung fu schools." No, YOU need to see more kung fu schools. I myself have been in 5 different ones. ALL of them, the first thing they try to do is teach forms. Poster after poster comes on here with the same story, the kwoons they are going in are all doing nothing but forms. Any kung fu tourny you go to, 50-100 people doing forms comp that takes up 2-3 days of judging. You're lucky if there's anyone to fight in your weight in san shou. Hell even technical sparring might get all of a dozen participants.
Hey, I don't dissagree with you on this at all. You are 1oo% on the money.
I'm just sayin' it ain't right.

that being said, I still teach forms, btw. But I make no claims about it being some sort of fight training. I do feel it gives students a piece of the history, something to pass down to the next generation, etc
I enjoy forms. Always have. They're fun to do, interesting to learn, make you feel great, etc. But, it is what it is. It's not a substitute for drilling, partner work, lien gung, and sparring. As far as exercise? Sure, they can be tools for stamina. They are less boring than endless repitition, But so can line drills. So can anything.

[SoCo KungFu]

Ugh... this thread is depressing. There's only 3 kung fu schools all around 2 hours drive from where I live.

1 does shaolin and sifu told me when I went in that they do forms and 1 steps. He doesn't let his students spar and he told me he thinks sparring is less effective than prearranged defenses. I watch his students and not a one of them had any concept of what it meant to fight. When they do accidentally punch each other in drills the offender is actually required to go do pushups. For doing something that should be happening anyways.

2nd hung gar and I had to beg to cross hands with anyone. No sparring in group classes. I had to take private lessons to spar anyone. But in groups they'll spend an hour training horse stance. Really? Do that at home when you're alone.

3rd was another Shaolin school. Everyone was geriatric and would be no benefit to me in training for my personal goals.

As for the rest, mantis school in FL. By time I left I had like between 15-20 forms. I forget exactly. But I don't have to say anymore than that I think.

And a run in with Shaolin do while I was military. Blue belts and purple belts with 8 months of training trying to tell me I was doing a technique wrong. Well until I did it on them. Ugh....

[YouKnowWho]

Anyone who thinks forms are useless has never really "trained" them.
I have always consider myself as a TCMA guy but I don't train forms. I was taught that "form is for teaching and learning only, it's not for training."

I have leaned more than 50 forms in my life (I learned my 1st form when I was 7). After I have repeated my forms many times, and I know that I can remember my forms for the rest of my life, I dion't do my forms any more. I only train "drills" after that.

Here are drills that I train daily when I don't have partner:

- right hook punch, right back fist, left upper cut.
- right front kick, left roundhouse kick, left side kick.
- leg twist, leg lift, leg block.
- ...


I do feel it gives students a piece of the history, something to pass down to the next generation, etc.
I have a student who has been with me for 8 years now. I have not taught him any forms yet. I told him that the day he will be too old to compete in tournaments, the day I'll teach him forms (so he can pass it down to the next generation).

A friend of mine taught his students all the Yang Taiji moves in the form as drills. But he had never linked those moves from the 1st move to the last move. He told his students to link those moves anway they prefer.

[bawang]

what ruined american kung fu is not forms, its greed.

american kung fu is small fringe group , so its not a big deal if kung fu dies in america.

[Scott R. Brown]

A friend of mine taught his students all the Yang Taiji moves in the form as drills. But he had never linked those moves from the 1st move to the last move. He told his students to link those moves anway they prefer.

This is correct thinking!:)


what ruined american kung fu is not forms, its greed.

american kung fu is small fringe group , so its not a big deal if kung fu dies in america.

OUCH!!!!:p

bawang always hits below the belt! :eek::cool:

But if you leave yourself open....you deserve it!:o

[RenDaHai]

I have always consider myself as a TCMA guy but I don't train forms. I was taught that "form is for teaching and learning only, it's not for training."


Well, I think forms are very much for training. They train agility like nothing else.

For example if you only train against your opponent or a target your technique quickly reaches a limit. Because you only do it within its realistic proportions. However if you 'extremify' this move and train it, you can take it far past its limit. You can never do this in sparring because you are trying to apply the move so you do it only partially correct, just do it fast enough to work.

The more you train the technique past its limit, the more you notice during sparring that your technique has improved. That you can bend that little further than before.... Form trains your body in this way. Range of movement.

Plus form does more than this. Practicing form you will come to a great deal of realizations about the principles of kung fu. Old forms were constructed like poems. The strategy of the master is written in the sequence and symmetry of the form. Its not just a load of random moves put together. Of course the forms of say northern shaolin are older and more profound than those of many younger styles.

By not teaching form i think you are denying your student the oppertunity to meditate on some of the principles of kung fu himself.

[RenDaHai]

Also

If we take a single move from an old form, it has hundreds of applications.

However if we only train the move in application we will only train one or two of these applications.

By training the movement in form we gradually start to realise the 'PRINCIPLE OF MOVEMENT' we start to learn the formula behind the technique. Once we have this we can dispose of form entirely and rely on the principles of kung fu to fight with.

If you only ever train the specific applications of moves it is harder to learn these underlying principles.

By training form you can unlock these principles and move from form to formlessness in combat. However going straight to formlessness is not so easy.

NOt saying form can be trained alon and make you a good fighter, but it does help as part of your training and i think it should be trained along with sparring and striking and all the rest.

[bawang]

sparring doesnt give u the magical feeling form does. americans train forms because it makes them feel good about themselves. thats why so many kung fu people do forms so bad but theyre oblivious to it. theyre lost in the magical moment rofl

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaeCyQE-lyw

down syndrome guy does kung fu better than top american sifus

[SPJ]

Forms are a list.

Forms are like a menu in a restaurant.

We only order some items to have a meal. We do not eat everything on the menu.

Similarly, we only drill and spar with some single moves in each class or session.


:)

[taai gihk yahn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaeCyQE-lyw

down syndrome guy does kung fu better than top american sifus

bawang, that was truly inspirational; just one thing tho - did your mom loose a lot of weight recently? because on stage w the microphone, she looks a lot smaller than in the pic that you have of her in your sig; just wondering if she was ok...

[EarthDragon]

I cant belevie we are still having this discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

everything has its purpose when learning MA. One of these is forms. ORIGINALLY forms where a way to remember the movements taught to you by your illiterate shifu since most could not read or write.
some of these forms were also in a poem or song to help rememeber.

Its the dumb ass American people that dont understand thier purpose and say things like
1. you cant fight with a form
2. forms are not good training tools.
3. forms cant make you learn MMA
4. forms is a silly way to learn kung fu
5. shifu's who teach forms dotn know how to fight
6. They have no place in modern times

I am sooo tired of this BS. understand that forms are the notebook of knowledge in a sequence to rememeber the specific movements which BTW have applications. When you learn the applications you learn to defend yourself. and thus learn kung fu.

It may be true that some people use them in the wrong way but americans can abuse anything in my opionon. not just forms. we abuse food for God's sake!

Soco you said the 5 schools you vistied in SC sucked. well the same goes for your pizzeria's I've been to SC...... does that mean that every pizzeria is the same? NO find on you like and you will be happy, but dont bash pizza as a whole.
I teach 5 forms and its applications and our forms are from poems. Do they help you to fight? in some ways yes
1. balance
2. agility adn flexability
3. endurance.
4. muslce memory and strength
5. strengthening your foundation
5. fluidity of movement
6. power generation and placement
do these help when it comes time to fight? YES.... are forms and effecitve tool absolutley..... shoudl they be taught without application? NO. Do SOME teachers that dont know how to apply thier knowledge use them as sheilds? YES can we ever end this same dead horse conversation??????????????????????? maybe

[PalmStriker]

Forms are all about training for power.

[PalmStriker]

sparring doesnt give u the magical feeling form does. americans train forms because it makes them feel good about themselves. thats why so many kung fu people do forms so bad but theyre oblivious to it. theyre lost in the magical moment rofl

Yes, "Chi Addicts". :D

[PalmStriker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaeCyQE-lyw

down syndrome guy does kung fu better than top american sifus

Perfection! Real Kungfu is mind over matter as none of us are the vehicles(bodies) we are driving. :)

[Hardwork108]

I cant belevie we are still having this discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

everything has its purpose when learning MA. One of these is forms. ORIGINALLY forms where a way to remember the movements taught to you by your illiterate shifu since most could not read or write.
some of these forms were also in a poem or song to help rememeber.

Its the dumb ass American people that dont understand thier purpose and say things like
1. you cant fight with a form
2. forms are not good training tools.
3. forms cant make you learn MMA
4. forms is a silly way to learn kung fu
5. shifu's who teach forms dotn know how to fight
6. They have no place in modern times

I am sooo tired of this BS. understand that forms are the notebook of knowledge in a sequence to rememeber the specific movements which BTW have applications. When you learn the applications you learn to defend yourself. and thus learn kung fu.

It may be true that some people use them in the wrong way but americans can abuse anything in my opionon. not just forms. we abuse food for God's sake!

Soco you said the 5 schools you vistied in SC sucked. well the same goes for your pizzeria's I've been to SC...... does that mean that every pizzeria is the same? NO find on you like and you will be happy, but dont bash pizza as a whole.
I teach 5 forms and its applications and our forms are from poems. Do they help you to fight? in some ways yes
1. balance
2. agility adn flexability
3. endurance.
4. muslce memory and strength
5. strengthening your foundation
5. fluidity of movement
6. power generation and placement
do these help when it comes time to fight? YES.... are forms and effecitve tool absolutley..... shoudl they be taught without application? NO. Do SOME teachers that dont know how to apply thier knowledge use them as sheilds? YES can we ever end this same dead horse conversation??????????????????????? maybe

Great post Earthdragon. The logic behind forms training was well put and there is no excuse for not understanding what you wrote.

However, I have a feeling that the none-TCMA, MMA people, who insist on cluelessly badmouthing traditional kung fu methodlogies, will not have made heads or tales out of it, but then logical thinking and deduction was never their forte. ;)

Thanks again. :)

[EarthDragon]

I have a feeling that the none-TCMA, MMA people, who insist on cluelessly badmouthing traditional kung fu methodlogies, will not have made heads or tales out of it, but then logical thinking and deduction was never their forte
I disagree, I think I spelled it out quite clearly and all can understand wht forms are for,
lets not hate on MMA people as they shpould not hate on us.

To say form training is not a part of fighting is just as ignorant as saying that jumping rope, shadow boxing, slipping drills, and footwork training are not part of fighting when boxing.

I know some football players who take ballet lessons....... lets use what ever we need to improve what ever it is that needs improving.

I DO NOT agree that forms should be the main or only training tool used to teach students. Teachers that do this are either stalling or do not know how to translate thier skillls into a fighting avenues correctly.
And from the feedback I hear alot fo schools are doing this, so my opinion is dont join those schools and if you find yourself in one enroll into a differnt one. Just dont bash them either they make it easier for schools like mine to get their students..:p

I was invited to perfrom a jointlocking seminar at a school located in the mall out by me, their students couldnt fight to save their lives, they were skiny, ****ey uncordinated and looked more like the kids from Glee than MA's but you know what? the loved what they d, loved and respected thier teacher and appreciated what I taught them and thats all that matters to them... it seems only the ppl who are looking for competition fighting are ****ed that these schools exist

[darkie1973]

EarthDragon,..... Hardwork,.... ditto.:)

[darkie1973]

The chinese are an artful and poetic culture. They use poetry in cook books, medical text,.... the **** Art of War by Sun Tzu is freaking poem! You wanna tell all those Japanese business men that have been using it for years to best our auto industry internationally that it doesn't work?! It's no different than using a rhyme to remember your history lesson in the 4th grade,..... grow up people.

[YouKnowWho]

Well, I think forms are very much for training.

Let me use an example to show my point. Assume a form contain the following sentences, "This is a book, I love you to death. You owe me some money." Please notice that there is no logic connection between "book" and "I", "death" and "You". You can train your form as drills:

- "This is a book" 100 times,
- "I love you to death" 100 times,
- "You owe me some money" 100 times,

which is the same as to train your whole form 100 times. The day that you have broken your form into drills, the day that form will have no training value for you.

Some forms were designed in such a way that's easy to teach to the beginners (For example to hold your hands on your waist when you kick). If you train your form just like the way that you have learned from your teacher when you are 80 years old, you may just treat yourself as beginner all your life and refuse to move beyond.

I prefer to create my own drills instead of getting it from the forms. The reason is simple. Good designed forms are hard to find. Which form can give you a true integration of kick, punch, lock, and throw? Which form can give you drills such as:

- roundhouse kick, side kick, under hook, knee strike, outer hook?
- leg seize, reverse leg seize, foot sweep, turn around leg block, outer twist?
- ...

The answer is "None of those TCMA forms can provide you such combo drills" and you just have to create those drills yourself. The day that you start to create your own drills, the value of form is no longer important to you.

[mooyingmantis]

Look I realize how YOU teach is one thing. But what you are doing is NOT what the masses are doing. I can't count how many times you and Earthdragon and Mooying and the like keep saying, "Y'all need to see more kung fu schools." No, YOU need to see more kung fu schools. I myself have been in 5 different ones.

Well, I guess maybe I am lucky to be in an area that doesn't have sh1tty kung fu schools. So sad for you!

Fortunately guys like John Ervin, Gino Belfiore, Tony Yang and his students, Mike Biggie and myself try to keep it real in the Cleveland/Akron/Canton area. Funny thing is that though we all teach practical fighting, we all use forms as one method of doing it.
BTW Nick Scrima who promotes several tourneys in the US is also originally from the NE Ohio (Parma) area.

[EarthDragon]

I have heard great things about Mike Biggie

[Syn7]

so MMA is the new tradition, eh?? :p

do we reallly have to do this again???

[Syn7]

but which bear is the best bear?

HINT:
http://www.byronbear.com/images/album/black_bear_05_d091.jpg

panda bear... come on now...

[Syn7]

Forms can break monotony. And doing some forms with really heavy weapons are decent and fun workout. But the number of martial arts that produce competent fighters in the complete absence of forms is all you need to see the irrelevance of forms in the grand scheme of things. But hey people always turn a blind eye to the obvious so whatever.

Anyways the original premise of this thread is flawed to begin with. Forms have not become obsolete in the face of MMA. They were always inadequate training tools to begin with. Its only recently because of things like MMA that people are actually giving a crap and calling it out. But lets be real martial artists have always been a bit of a joke to the majority of people anyways so whatever. At least down here. You tell someone you did karate or whatever then prepare to get hazed.

yeah but u live in souf kerrillana!!! maybe you'd fit in better you joined the football team and dated a chearleeder...

[Syn7]

There are hundreds of thousands of people being "hurt", or killed by modern medicine and medical practices, not to mention scientifically developed food additives.

That does not mean that "only an idiot" would follow modern science!

he said only an idiot BLINDLY follows traditions... and yes only an IDIOT blindly follows anything... stop seeing what you want to see and start seeing whats actually there... if you had actually read the whole thing rather than gotten half way, if that, and already started formulating your answer before you even finished the paragraph... over here we call that stuff selfish, too busy thinking of ytour own to understand his... you are a class a douche... now you can answer this line for line if you'd like but dont expeect a response... from now on i only heckle you...

[EarthDragon]

he said only an idiot BLINDLY follows traditions... and yes only an IDIOT blindly follows anything...
Not to be an arse but isnt this what religon is all about? I mean come one some of the beliefes in religon are just as rediculous...seriously

[Syn7]

I enjoy forms. Always have. They're fun to do, interesting to learn, make you feel great, etc. But, it is what it is. It's not a substitute for drilling, partner work, lien gung, and sparring. As far as exercise? Sure, they can be tools for stamina. They are less boring than endless repitition, But so can line drills. So can anything.


u should say that more often...

this is what i like at a tcma school... learn the 1st form, drill it to death in pieces, try it in light sparring with a friend... learn the 2nd form, drill it, spar it... now by the third form you should already have the ability to fight, not you need to test that ability in the form of full contact sparring with a veriety of opponents, that means diff sizes and styles, diff arts altother... if you have an army buddy use him, or a cop friend use him, or a thug friend, USE THEM all...

now to me this is the slow way, wich isnt to say it a bad way... also there should be alot of S & C aswell... but were talking forms here...

[Violent Designs]

incorrect, it is:

http://www.byronbear.com/images/album/black_bear_05_d091.jpg

truth .

[EarthDragon]

this is what i like at a tcma school... learn the 1st form, drill it to death in pieces, try it in light sparring with a friend... learn the 2nd form, drill it, spar it... now by the third form you should already have the ability to fight

All MA schools I have known do this, not just Chinese kwons. Granted there may be some that teach forms only, that dont have applications but they do not stay in business for long, espeically in big cities.

Perhaps the schools that ppl on here complain about are in hick towns and mid america? Is this why kung fu got a bad name on here?

what about TKD, I have seen really bad TKD schools, they are in every mall and strip plaza in ameica but this is expected from TKD schools, its for kids and the masses, kung fu is not like this.... at least in NY CA.

[Syn7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaeCyQE-lyw

down syndrome guy does kung fu better than top american sifus

what are they talking about for so long and why is everyone crying??? is there more to the story than the obvious???


i clicked a couple other chinas got talent links off that one, they all sing english songs, everyone mouths the words along, and maybe one of every 10,000 understands ANY of the words... that is priceless... this is how america has infiltarted the world...

[Syn7]

All MA schools I have known do this, not just Chinese kwons. Granted there may be some that teach forms only, that dont have applications but they do not stay in business for long, espeically in big cities.

Perhaps the schools that ppl on here complain about are in hick towns and mid america? Is this why kung fu got a bad name on here?

what about TKD, I have seen really bad TKD schools, they are in every mall and strip plaza in ameica but this is expected from TKD schools, its for kids and the masses, kung fu is not like this.... at least in NY CA.

i think what is missing from the program is usually full contact sparring with people outside the circle, if at all...


now thats not my approach to learning MA's, but its what i would absolutely expect from a tcma school... but dont get the two twisted...

if i was interested in tkd, i wouldnt care where you teach it, as long as you pressure test it... properly...

i take more of a muay thai and wrestling approach... lots of ring time, lots of rolling... but i still do forms... its just exercise to me tho... and like ten tigers said, its a catalogue...

[Syn7]

Not to be an arse but isnt this what religon is all about? I mean come one some of the beliefes in religon are just as rediculous...seriously

yeah... it is what religion is all about... enough said... unless you wanna bring it to the off topic section...





faith+pride=slaughter;)

[Syn7]

All MA schools I have known do this, not just Chinese kwons. Granted there may be some that teach forms only, that dont have applications but they do not stay in business for long, espeically in big cities.

Perhaps the schools that ppl on here complain about are in hick towns and mid america? Is this why kung fu got a bad name on here?

maybe youve just mentally removed them from your radar... i dont notice them anymore either... i can walk past an itk outlet and not even see it... but open the phone book, they are everywhere...

[EarthDragon]

yeah... it is what religion is all about... enough said... unless you wanna bring it to the off topic section...

LOL NO not at all, Im buddhist, just thought it was funny and hypocritical at the same time. But most people in organized religon are. But they will tell you differently:D

[Syn7]

LOL NO not at all, Im buddhist, just thought it was funny and hypocritical at the same time. But most people in organized religon are. But they will tell you differently:D

i used to consider myself a buddhist... i wasnt tho, just thought i was... like most buddhists... thats not a shot at you... i threw off any finite label years ago... i think how i think and i am how i am... its all subject to change at any time i feel change is needed... i am truly an independant... i do have beliefs, but they are just guides and ofcourse are subject to change at all times... i am born again every moment, i will never have any major metamorphisis in my life...

[taai gihk yahn]

i used to consider myself a buddhist... i wasnt tho, just thought i was... like most buddhists... thats not a shot at you... i threw off any finite label years ago... i think how i think and i am how i am... its all subject to change at any time i feel change is needed... i am truly an independant... i do have beliefs, but they are just guides and ofcourse are subject to change at all times... i am born again every moment, i will never have any major metamorphisis in my life...

according to Buddhist doctrine, you are only a Buddhist technically if you have formally taken refuge in the three jewels; if you haven't, that doesn't mean you can't effectively follow the tenets of Buddhism, practice accordingly and become awakened just as well as someone who has - it really doesn't matter, it's just a matter of semantics, but if you say you are a Buddhist, then the assumption is you have taken refuge; if you haven't, then it's like saying you are a Christian without having been baptized - you can certainly follow the precepts, but you're not "official"; again, who cares one way or the other, but this about definitions as opposed to anything else;

as far as forms go, they are simply one more golden chain accumulated around one's ankles to bind one up when one tries to move freely; indeed, from both a Taoist and a Ch'an perspective, doing a prearranged form would be like eating the dregs of someone else's meal, because it's simply repetition based on memorization - they are in fact a kinesthetic form of habituation - meaning that when you do a form, you are doing something "familiar", and therefore it feels good; so you do it over and over, because it triggers all those feel-good neurotransmitters like serotonin in a very predictable way;

forms are not necessary to be an effective fighter, they are not necessary to build strength, speed, agility or internal connection: all these things can be done independent of forms practice; in fact, from a motor learning perspective, based on a growing body of research over the last several decades, doing forms practice beyond a very basic level would be considered detrimental to developing a skill set that requires efficient function in an environment of high "contextual interference", which would be the case in a fight (even one with a rule set), because it is essentially a "blocked" form of practice versus a "random" one, and in general the research shows rather clearly that the way to optimize retention and transfer (using it in a novel situation) of a motor skill, is to train blocked initially but then to train randomly as soon as possible; of course, I know that all the "traditionalists" here will deride motor learning research with the usual "oh sure, thousands of years of tradition and we are going to listen to a bunch of egg heads with their silly modern methods"; and that's fine - of course, without having actually studied motor learning and read the available research, if one feels confident dismissing it out of hand, that's their prerogative, but it's hardly an informed one;

I know that people are very attached to their styles and to the "concept" of forms practice; just because something has been done a long time, even by wizened old Chinese men, doesn't mean it's necessarily the best thing or even a good thing; the "appeal to tradition" that most of you use is a logical fallacy that holds no water; you sit back with your self-righteous chuckling about how someone can have the audacity to dare question these methods, or that one should go back in time and tell some dead Chinese teacher that he had the wrong idea; again, these are distractions that distract from the suchness of the argument placed before us; the only way to assess the worth of something is to analyze it based on objective, rational thinking; of course, if one says that doing forms feels good and one feels one is deriving benefit, that's fine, but the evidence of the necessity of forms isn't there, and what evidence does exist in terms of motor learning research is strongly suggestive that it may even be detrimental to acquiring fighting skill per se;

[EarthDragon]

i used to consider myself a buddhist... i wasnt tho, just thought i was... like most buddhists... thats not a shot at you... i threw off any finite label years ago... i think how i think and i am how i am... its all subject to change at any time i feel change is needed... i am truly an independant... i do have beliefs, but they are just guides and ofcourse are subject to change at all times... i am born again every moment, i will never have any major metamorphisis in my life...
one would call that being spiritualist, perhaps the most open minded way of looking at the universe and higher power or God whatever you perfer.

I once read a quote form swami that said. "religon is the ignorance or man, sprituality is the way oof God". I thought that was so profound. anyway back to topic.

Taai did you happen to read my post on forms #36 and thier purpose? just curious

[ginosifu]

I know it's like beating a dead horse but I would like to throw my 2 cents in.

In Chinese culture they practice forms. This is what they do, it is part of their heritage. Forms practice is just a part of the overall picture. Depending the amount of time you have will determine how much time to put into your Kung Fu. Military personel / Monks in Monestary / Rebels wanting over throw a Goverment etc etc had plenty of time to devote to forms practice. Average farmers / laborers did not have the same amount of time to invest into kung fu training.

A lot of the mentality today is this quick give me some fighting skills I can use tommorrow if I get in scuffle. Which is not hard to do, learn some basic punches, kick the heavy bag a couple of times and Walah ! here comes another mma fighter. Now I am not trying bash mma fighter because learning the basics and getting good at them is not a bad idea. Also people of today do not have the time to invest into long term kung fu programs, it's sad but true.

Most old school kung fu systems are very in depth and comprehensive like learning your bachelors or masters degree. A lot of these sophisticated systems are difficult to comprehend unless you are spending enormous amouts of time working all aspects including Form work.

If a group or a person has the time to invest, Forms can enhance all of your skills including fighting. However if you have no time to inverst it would be best to spend your time drilling and fighting, sorta like "Hands on Training".

There are still a bunch of us old schoolers who still try and teach the Forms along with the drilling and the fighting. There is another group out there who balk at forms and just drill and fight and hit the heavy bags etc etc. This ok, I have no problem that they don't do forms. What I do have a problem with is those peeps who comdem Forms and Forms teachers. They have no clue of the benefits because the are not readily visible until after years of training. Again I am not saying that taking the easier route with no forms is bad or wrong, just those individuals are missing out on important components that were put there on purpose.

Can we put to rest the idea that forms are bad or a waste of time. It is just a different way to train.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

Can we put to rest the idea that forms are bad or a waste of time. It is just a different way to train.
Form has textbook value and there is no question about that. The Chinese throwing arts has over 400 different throws. It will be nice to create 8 throwing forms so each form can record 50 different throws. It will be much easier to pass the throwing art knowledge to the next generation this way.

Here is a Chinese throwing art (SC) form that I had created 30 years ago. Both good and bad comments are welcome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nFho13MYSM

I don't train forms any more, but when I did, I had condensed all my 50 forms into one form which contain a total of 84 moves, a very long form. If I can still do that form with combat speed and combat power today, I'll be in excellent body shape and that's for sure.

[EarthDragon]

was that you? you def had the 70's hair doo.... funny thing is its back in stlye with the young folks.
Altough it lacked some flow, more like static postures put into sentance form I liked it and it was obvious what throws were represented in that form some i saw right away were.... ma bou ti, beng tiao, xuan bu ti, xia ba dung. cool to recognize them

[YouKnowWho]

was that you?
I wasn't in that clip. Here is a form that I did in that same China trip. That was 19 years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgFd1EKYTIo


Altough it lacked some flow, more like static postures put into sentance form I liked it and it was obvious what throws were represented in that form some i saw right away were.... ma bou ti, beng tiao, xuan bu ti, xia ba dung. cool to recognize them
The 1st part of that form is 13 Taibao (13 training postures). I linked it together so it will be easier to remember. Each posture has nothing to do with another and that's why it lacked "flow"..

[taai gihk yahn]

Taai did you happen to read my post on forms #36 and thier purpose? just curious
yes I did; the rationale you provide are, in my experience, the typical arguments made in support of forms training; and while it is true that a form can train all of the things you listed, IMPO, there are more efficient and effective ways to do so; and furthermore, there are more efficient ways to do so if you want to train someone to fight;

the simple reality is this: there are many systems that do not use forms at all that produce effective fighters; this proves forms are not necessary; of course, there are systems that do train forms that produce effective fighters as well; however, it cannot be said that the forms training confers any particular advantage for those stylists as opposed to those who do not train them; all things being equal in that regard, the logical conclusion is that a) forms are not necessary to learn to fight effectively; b) when they are used, they confer no discernible advantage to those who train them over those who do not; coupled with the basic science research done in the filed of motor learning, one logically concludes that forms training is at best inconsequential and at worst detrimental;

the above are logical arguments; they are devoid of any emotional connection to any sort of tradition; since I have no attachments either way, I am simply ascertaining from my own perspective what appears to be as such; if anyone wants to offer a reasoned argument why forms training is either necessary or particularly advantageous as compared to any other methodology, I am all ears; and I do agree that personal preference for a given type of training can have an impact on one's overall progression, so I am not discounting that - but this is a subjective argument (meaning that people like training forms who were "brought up" doing so, so they almost "need" to do them to feel complete in their practice; which is fine - but if you take someone with no preferences one way or the other who has never trained before, this effect will not be an issue);

[Hardwork108]

he said only an idiot BLINDLY follows traditions... and yes only an IDIOT blindly follows anything... stop seeing what you want to see and start seeing whats actually there... if you had actually read the whole thing rather than gotten half way, if that, and already started formulating your answer before you even finished the paragraph... over here we call that stuff selfish, too busy thinking of ytour own to understand his... you are a class a douche... now you can answer this line for line if you'd like but dont expeect a response... from now on i only heckle you...

I may have missed that because I have interacted with plenty of IDIOTS who BLINDLY follow modern "science" and BLINDLY put down TCMA practices that they cannot explain using their BLIND belief in science.

I have seen such people who, when faced with a TCMA striking technique that they cannot understand (using their modern scientific training knowledge base) will not hesitate to hypothesize that the master who created the technique had some physical disability that made him do and teach what he did. Of course, they will assume that his disabilities had gone unnoticed by his pupils and future masters of the system.....LOL!

Yes these are people that will not think outside of their "scientific" boxes, to which they cling on blindly!

By your definition the above people are IDIOTS. So, you and I finally agree on something.....

[EarthDragon]

YKW,

The 1st part of that form is 13 Taibao (13 training postures). I linked it together so it will be easier to remember. Each posture has nothing to do with another and that's why it lacked "flow"..
makes perfect sense. nice form in the second clip BTW.

Taai,
thanks for the explination but I was refferrring to the first part of my post... the reason forms are in MA. I did said they help make you a better fighter you cant deny this. anything that helps you train will make you a better fighter. But fighting is not the reason people practice forms, I think we agree on that as well.

[YouKnowWho]

fighting is not the reason people practice forms,
The day when you have reached to your 70 years old, you will have the following options:

- Quit TCMA training and just drink beer and watch TV all day long.
- Run, sit up, push up, work on heavy bag, lift weight, ...
- Train your drills.
- Train your forms.

Which one will give you the best result for:

- flexibility,
- balance,
- power,
- speed,
- endurance,
- body alignment?

Forms do have value if all you care about is "health" and "live longer". You may only care about "combat" today, but one day you will not treat "combat" as your 1st priority.

[taai gihk yahn]

I may have missed that because I have interacted with plenty of IDIOTS who BLINDLY follow modern "science" and BLINDLY put down TCMA practices that they cannot explain using their BLIND belief in science.

This are people who, when faced with a TCMA striking technique that they cannot understand (using their modern scientific knowledge base) will not hesitate to hypothesize that the master who created the technique had some physical disability that made him teach what he did. Of course, they will assume that his disabilities had gone unnoticed by his pupils and future masters of the system.

Yes these are people that will not think outside of their "scientific" boxes, to which they cling on blindly!

By your definition the above people are IDIOTS. So, you and I finally agree on something.....
well, if you believe that my opinion is based in idiotically and blindly following "science", that is certainly your purview; OTOH, your sole argument against someone with a polemical assessment of TCMA is to accuse them of simply not having had exposure to "authentic" practice; your strategy is essentially to constantly "reject the hypothetical";

as far as a TCMA striking technique that cannot be "explained" by science, that's a rather vague assertion - ANYTHING can be "explained" scientifically, provided that one understands the parameters within which one is operating; I know that many TCMA folks like to think that what they do is inexplicable from the perspective of contemporary scientific knowledge, but personally I have yet to find that to be the case, IMPE; there is a large body of extant anatomical and physiological knowledge that is relevant and can be directly applied to the various TCMA phenomena that many think are so inscrutable and indescribable; of course, one has to have had significant experience in both fields; since I have had that experience, I feel that I can draw connections that most others cannot; and of course, as I said before, anyone is free to disagree with my assessments;

[Hardwork108]

well, if you believe that my opinion is based in idiotically and blindly following "science", that is certainly your purview; OTOH, your sole argument against someone with a polemical assessment of TCMA is to accuse them of simply not having had exposure to "authentic" practice; your strategy is essentially to constantly "reject the hypothetical";

as far as a TCMA striking technique that cannot be "explained" by science, that's a rather vague assertion - ANYTHING can be "explained" scientifically, provided that one understands the parameters within which one is operating; I know that many TCMA folks like to think that what they do is inexplicable from the perspective of contemporary scientific knowledge, but personally I have yet to find that to be the case, IMPE; there is a large body of extant anatomical and physiological knowledge that is relevant and can be directly applied to the various TCMA phenomena that many think are so inscrutable and indescribable; of course, one has to have had significant experience in both fields; since I have had that experience, I feel that I can draw connections that most others cannot; and of course, as I said before, anyone is free to disagree with my assessments;

My post was a general description of what I have come across here in this forum, and was not a shot at you.

However IMHO, it is not a good idea to presume that one can explain all TCMA techniques if one has not studied all TCMA to an advanced level.

Just saying...

[taai gihk yahn]

Taai,
thanks for the explination but I was refferrring to the first part of my post... the reason forms are in MA. I did said they help make you a better fighter you cant deny this.
deny that you said it or deny that they make you a better fighter? again, from the available evidence, I cannot find any support for forms being relevant to building fighting skills, for the following reasons
a) there are many arts that produce skilled fighters that do not use forms (BJJ, sambo, MT, etc.)
b) comparing fighters from systems that use forms to those that do not, one does not find any evidence that those who train forms are inherently more successful at fighting than those who do not use them
c) a task analysis on the parametrics of forms training demonstrate that, according to motor learning theory, which is based on research of motor skill acquisition, forms constitute a type of training that, beyond a very basic level, not only is ultimately inconsequential to actual fighting, but may actually be detrimental, because it trains a markedly different context of motor function than that which occurs in an actual fight;


anything that helps you train will make you a better fighter.
that is a very general statement, but it actually supports the argument that one doesn't need to do forms to be a "better fighter"


But fighting is not the reason people practice forms, I think we agree on that as well.
well, I think a lot of people do train forms and think it will improve their fighting, but yes others, such as myself, practice them as an end onto themselves;

again, I am not trying to trash anyone or say that people shouldn't practice forms if they like doing them; I am just saying that, in light of the evidence, there is no basis other than personal preference to do so;

[EarthDragon]

youknowho........................your post # 70? dead on!

taai,

I am not trying to trash anyone or say that people shouldn't practice forms if they like doing them; I am just saying that, in light of the evidence, there is no basis other than personal preference to do so;

I love this statement and I know david J always says this as well.... if you like to do it then do it. if soaking your cup in icyhot before a fight makes you a better kicker then all the power to you borhter, whatever floats your boat right.....

I personally feel that when I practice forms my mind is sharper, my movements are more relaxed and fluid, my timing and hand eye corodination flow into equlibrium and my Yi is eminate.
This IMHO makes me a better more focused fighter and keeps me sharp.
Thats why I say what i say about forms they have thier place but obviouslly not to the extent of abuse and over functionality that some teaches have done with them.

[YouKnowWho]

youknowho........................your post # 70? dead on!

Because I don't know how many more years that I can still talk about "combat". :(

[tiaji1983]

I personally train TCMA. I practice forms. Do I think forms can teach you to fight, yes. Do I believe you can learn to fight without forms, yes. If you say forms are obsolete, and you can gain the same benefits without forms, maybe. But would it be easier or more practical, I dont think so for everything.

An example would be going low in forms. Before I trianed TCMA I always used high stances. JUST by doing my forms as low as i can, I gained flexibility, stability, muscle strength, balance, stamina and quickness and numbleness with my footwork. Plus I can easily take a lower position than an opponent, and move in that position without being warn out quickly. To gain all that without practicing forms, I guess I could do lunges, run, jump, weights, stand on horse stance for hours, and stuff like that, but I was able to gain that with forms without the monotony of doing the same thing over and over as I practice many different forms to go though.

I also practice forms as shadowboxing imagining multiple opponents. How did this help? it helps you discover applciations hidden within the forms and how to use them, and honestly with this practice, after time they just come out. Sometimes I will change soemthing in the form to experiment with applications, and always use different scenarios. Can you do this without forms? Yes. Forms is just the way I prefer, because then I dont have to do it individually since Im already practicing my forms, so its a time saver. The applications do come out by themselves, but I also am now practicing applications, and supplimenting with Push Hands for sensitivity, and the Snake and Crane games for getting through the opponents defenses. I also practice Chinna reversals and a little ground stuff to supplement the training.

It also can be broke down and put into drills, which I agree with, and then you could say you no longer need forms, but my teacher, who been practicing TCMA since the 60s said he still learns things from disecting his forms. SO if thats the case, your abandoning possibilities by stopping and just practicing drills. Is drills good to practice in addition to forms, yes. Will it make you a better fighter? possibly. Is that the extent of the usefullness of forms? no... I will always practice forms until I die, because of health benefits, the time reduction because of the lack of need of other trianing, always training applications, and the fact theres ALWAYS more to learn.

In addition I do supplement my training now with cardio, as in doing forms fast, fajing training, Qigong, weights, as in medicine balls, and resistence training, wooden dummies and heavy bags, and jogging, as I learned that just forms alone may not always be enough, but they are not useless tools or just menus of techniques. That is a limited view of the whole of forms.

Forms also do help with maintaining health and flexibility into old age, prevent arthritis and other such chronic ailments, increase lung capacity, help relieve stress, strengthen the body, etc. You can get these benefits with other exercises, but why do those other exercises if your already practicing forms?

This whole argument is relative to the speakers point of view. I am defending my point of view, it is not a wrong point of view, just different than others. Thier point of view is not wrong niether, just please try to see the whole picture. If its not relevent to your training thats fine, but it is relevent and it is not obsolete just because it is not understood.

[taai gihk yahn]

My post was a general description of what I have come across here in this forum, and was not a shot at you.
I did not construe it as such, I was simply speaking to your comments in general as well


However IMHO, it is not a good idea to presume that one can explain all TCMA techniques if one has not studied all TCMA to an advanced level.
Just saying...
again, you are apprently rejecting the hypothetical by essentially saying that unless one has seen everything that there is to see, one cannot make a definitive statement about anything; I would disagree - I think that once one has seen a reasonable cross section and experienced enough data points, one can make a reasonably reliable statement about a given system without having experienced that system in its entirety; this is essentially what happens when one samples a cross section of the population to determine a general trend; of course, one can always get more specific, but at some point one starts to see clear trends that can be used not only descriptively, but predictively with reasonable accuracy;

I personally do not claim to have experienced every technique from every system, let alone on an advanced level; but neither have you - in fact, you base your opinions of TCMA on experience of two arts on a rudimentary to intermediate level, with the added aspect of having been on the receiving end of certain types of "advanced" power generation; of course, you are probably comparing these systems to your experiences in other non-TCMA arts that didn't provide you with the same level of experience, and so you are drawing your conclusion based on a comparative analysis; similarly, many people here have had experience in both TCMA and non-TCMA, and instead of coming out unequivocally in support of the former, they have found it to be lacking; your argument is that they must have either not been exposed to "authentic" TCMA or if they were, they didn't understand it / study it deeply enough / were kept in the dark by their teachers, because otherwise if it were an authentic TCMA that they had explored fully, they could not possibly have reached the conclusions that they reached; as such, whenever someone points out a perceived shortcoming of TCMA, you hasten to caution them not to draw general conclusions about all TCMA; and up to a point, you are correct; however, when a large number of people start finding TCMA to be lacking in certain regards, sooner or later this will include practitioners of "authentic" quality systems, who, despite this, will still discern short-comings, despite the fact that their systems may be intrinsically valid; and despite your admonition against pairing authentic TCMA w an "irrelevant" system that does not adhere to TCMA principles, in fact this may be just what a given TCMA needs in order to continue to evolve - ultimately, the idea of TCMA principles i relative and conditional - the boundaries are set because people set them, not because of any absolute truth about them; and of course, here is where you and I differ, as I see everything as relative and nothing as absolute (of course, I am in good company, given that Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu say pretty much the same thing); thus, your characterizing something as an irrelevant art may not be because that art doesn't conform to TCMA principles, it may be that you yourself cannot appreciate that in fact there is a valid relationship between say, bok mei and MT, or Long Fist and BJJ, or CLF and Boxing; so before you deride others on their own supposed lack of insight, perhaps it is your own subjective bias that requires you to adhere to a preconception about how things are supposed to work;
all things evolve and change; it is the only constant; one cannot cling to the promises of the past, one must deal with what is directly in front of one; there are many paths to the top of the mountain, and sometimes those paths cross in unexpected ways; you have chosen yours, and it is one that is at base uncritical of and fully trusting in what you have discerned to be the authentic TCMA principles inherent to what you characterize as a valid art; and certainly many here agree with you; but many do not, and to continue to call their qualifications to do so in a valid way is at best disingenuous;

[taai gihk yahn]

I personally train TCMA. I practice forms. Do I think forms can teach you to fight, yes. Do I believe you can learn to fight without forms, yes. If you say forms are obsolete, and you can gain the same benefits without forms, maybe. But would it be easier or more practical, I dont think so for everything.
your argument is a rather unclear here; first you say you can learn to fight both by practicing forms and then by not practicing them; you hedge your bets by trying to qualify it that maybe forms are obsolete, and end with a vague statement about what may or may not be practical


An example would be going low in forms. Before I trianed TCMA I always used high stances. JUST by doing my forms as low as i can, I gained flexibility, stability, muscle strength, balance, stamina and quickness and numbleness with my footwork. Plus I can easily take a lower position than an opponent, and move in that position without being warn out quickly. To gain all that without practicing forms, I guess I could do lunges, run, jump, weights, stand on horse stance for hours, and stuff like that, but I was able to gain that with forms without the monotony of doing the same thing over and over as I practice many different forms to go though. .
so you basically admit that it was your personal perception of non-forms training as monotonous that causes you to choose forms training over more "mundane" repetative execises that may in fact allow you to more effectively and efficiently target the areas you need to work on; meaning that for you, you need to be entertained enough to practice something, the end results are not the only consideration, in fact you are willing to possibly gain less at the end as long as you are not bored on the way; which is fine, no judegement about that, but that's the long and short of it;


I also practice forms as shadowboxing imagining multiple opponents. .
unless you are moving spontaneously without following a set routine, you are not shadow boxing;


How did this help? it helps you discover applciations hidden within the forms and how to use them, and honestly with this practice, after time they just come out. Sometimes I will change soemthing in the form to experiment with applications, and always use different scenarios. Can you do this without forms?.
yes you can; in fact, instead of "discovering" applications in forms that are based on your projection of what you think will work, why not just train the techniques you learn in a relatively live setting against a resisting opponent? like that you will discover what actually works as opposed to what you think might work;


Forms is just the way I prefer.
and that right there is the crux of your argument; and no one can argue against your personal preference, nor should they; however, this does not give you or anyone the ability to generalize about something beyond that;


It also can be broke down and put into drills, which I agree with, and then you could say you no longer need forms, but my teacher, who been practicing TCMA since the 60s said he still learns things from disecting his forms..
again, this is projection - unless he is actively going out and testing what he has discerned against resisting opponents who are not his students or training brothers, he has no way of knowing if his conjecture is valid;


SO if thats the case, your abandoning possibilities by stopping and just practicing drills. Is drills good to practice in addition to forms, yes. Will it make you a better fighter? possibly. Is that the extent of the usefullness of forms? no.
I hate to say this, but you really don't make much sense here, you are kind of all over the place - you offer a variety of opinions, but offer no basis other than your personal preference for why they should hold true; and that's fine, for you as an individual; but you have no basis to generalize your comments


no... I will always practice forms until I die, because of health benefits, the time reduction because of the lack of need of other trianing, always training applications, and the fact theres ALWAYS more to learn. In addition I do supplement my training now with cardio, as in doing forms fast, fajing training, Qigong, weights, as in medicine balls, and resistence training, wooden dummies and heavy bags, and jogging, as I learned that just forms alone may not always be enough, but they are not useless tools or just menus of techniques. That is a limited view of the whole of forms. .
again, you say one thing than you say the opposite: "forms alone may not be enough" - well then, you really don't know one way or the other...


Forms also do help with maintaining health and flexibility into old age, prevent arthritis and other such chronic ailments, increase lung capacity, help relieve stress, strengthen the body, etc. You can get these benefits with other exercises, but why do those other exercises if your already practicing forms?.
because there are other forms of exercise that can get you these benefits much more efficiently than TCMA forms - Feldenkreis, Piates, Alexander Technique, yoga, qigong, Ariga Gym, Laban - all modalties developed primarilly for health - how could a practice designed for martial use primarilly possibly hope to be more effective for health maintenance than a system designed primarilly for that purpose?


This whole argument is relative to the speakers point of view. I am defending my point of view, it is not a wrong point of view, just different than others. Thier point of view is not wrong niether, just please try to see the whole picture. If its not relevent to your training thats fine, but it is relevent and it is not obsolete just because it is not understood.
that's fine, but again, you make assertions that appear to be generalizations, when in fact you are stating, in a somewhat convoluted manner, your own personal rationale for why you do forms, which boils down to the fact that you like doing forms; which is fine; but that doesn't establish any sort of objective criteria for their utility as regards development of fighting skill as opposed to other methods;

[taai gihk yahn]

taai,


I love this statement and I know david J always says this as well.... if you like to do it then do it. if soaking your cup in icyhot before a fight makes you a better kicker then all the power to you borhter, whatever floats your boat right.....

I personally feel that when I practice forms my mind is sharper, my movements are more relaxed and fluid, my timing and hand eye corodination flow into equlibrium and my Yi is eminate.
This IMHO makes me a better more focused fighter and keeps me sharp.
Thats why I say what i say about forms they have thier place but obviouslly not to the extent of abuse and over functionality that some teaches have done with them.
and here is where so-called "objective" assessment may reach a limit, insofar as that when one is motivated to perform an activity, it impacts one's performance in a non-linear manner; so for example, although one may be able to objectively establish that a given series of context-specific drills may enhance one's performance as a fighter, there may be something about doing a form that lends a certain ineffable, non-quantifiable aspect to what one does; it's like, one can objectively argue that eating chocolate cake is a bad thing if one is aon a weight loss regimine, except that maybe having that one piece of cake once in a while one is able to stay on that regimine more effectively over the long term; similarly, if one is motivated personally to train harder all around because one aspect of one's training is doing forms, even though we might objectively demonstrate from a motor learning perspective that they are of not advantage and possible detrimental, at the same time if they build one's "fighting spirit", then there is a relative advantage to engaging in their practice - sort of like the hoppolite (sp?) warrior dances of ancient Greece: they certainly knew those movements weren't going to be what they used in actual fighting, yet doing it galvanized their fighting spirit; so in a way, if you are doing a form that you know connects you to your distant TCMA ancestors and if that fires you up, then it is now relevant to your overall training and fighting ability; of course, you may still get you asz kicked by some guy who simply ran up and down stadium steps all day with a log across his shoulders as his motivational practice, but hey, you live and learn...

[Hardwork108]

PART 1


I did not construe it as such, I was simply speaking to your comments in general as well

You did say,


well, if you believe that my opinion is based in idiotically and blindly following "science", that is certainly your purview;....
But if you say that you did not take it as a personal comment, then so be it.



again, you are apprently rejecting the hypothetical by essentially saying that unless one has seen everything that there is to see, one cannot make a definitive statement about anything; I would disagree -

I think you may have misunderstood what I meant, which is that unless one has seen everything that there is to see one cannot make a definitive statement about everything that there is to see.


I think that once one has seen a reasonable cross section and experienced enough data points, one can make a reasonably reliable statement about a given system without having experienced that system in its entirety;
Again, a "reasonable" (which in itself can be subjective) cross section is not everything.


this is essentially what happens when one samples a cross section of the population to determine a general trend; of course, one can always get more specific, but at some point one starts to see clear trends that can be used not only descriptively, but predictively with reasonable accuracy;
I would agree that in determining general trend statistics (even if they can be manipulated), this is a reasonable scientific approach, however when dealing with a methodology which is not taught truly in around 95% percent of the schools that claim to teach it, and when you consider the fact that a few schools that do teach it may or may not teach it fully to everyone, then this mindset can have failings.


I personally do not claim to have experienced every technique from every system, let alone on an advanced level; but neither have you - in fact, you base your opinions of TCMA on experience of two arts on a rudimentary to intermediate level, with the added aspect of having been on the receiving end of certain types of "advanced" power generation;
That is true.


of course, you are probably comparing these systems to your experiences in other non-TCMA arts that didn't provide you with the same level of experience, and so you are drawing your conclusion based on a comparative analysis;

That and the fact that no one here has shown any understanding of the SPM power generation as practiced in the Chow Gar school where I practiced, even when I had thrown plenty of hints that would draw out the knowledgable.

As far as Wing Chun is concerned then I can say that I did not come by anyone here who practices it in all the dimensions that I have seen, without going out into other often irrelevant systems.



similarly, many people here have had experience in both TCMA and non-TCMA, and instead of coming out unequivocally in support of the former, they have found it to be lacking;
That does not surprise me at all, seeing that over 95% of TCMA schools out there teach total crap. What surprises me that these people use their questionable TCMA experience and "understanding" to make blanket, not to mention clueless statements about "how bad"; "out of date"; "useless" certain TCMA methodologies are supposed to be.


your argument is that they must have either not been exposed to "authentic" TCMA or if they were, they didn't understand it / study it deeply enough / were kept in the dark by their teachers, because otherwise if it were an authentic TCMA that they had explored fully, they could not possibly have reached the conclusions that they reached;

And that is because many, if not all, have not studied authentic TCMA methodologies, but then what do you expect when over 95% of kung fu schools out there are McKwoons or at best a hybrid kwoons that teach "empty shell" version of TCMA forms and combine them with kickboxing style sparring?


as such, whenever someone points out a perceived shortcoming of TCMA, you hasten to caution them not to draw general conclusions about all TCMA; and up to a point, you are correct;

The situation is worse than that, because most of these people do not even understand the "TCMA" they are supposed to have studied, let alone "all TCMA".

[Hardwork108]

PART 2



however, when a large number of people start finding TCMA to be lacking in certain regards,

A large number of people will always come to that conclusion, because the overwhelming majority of TCMA practioners practice in poor to mediocre schools!


sooner or later this will include practitioners of "authentic" quality systems, who, despite this, will still discern short-comings, despite the fact that their systems may be intrinsically valid;
Well, every kung fu tagged kickboxer in this forum claims experience in "authentic" quality systems or schools. So the situation is not as simple as it may first appear.

Besides, in the very unlikely case that any of these essentially kickboxer characters had any valid authentic training for a good number of years, would that give them the right to generalize about all TCMAs? Of course not, and if they did, then it would be a good indication that they were clueless about their own core TCMA, as well, for having missed the scope of these systems.


and despite your admonition against pairing authentic TCMA w an "irrelevant" system that does not adhere to TCMA principles,
I have good reason for this opion.


in fact this may be just what a given TCMA needs in order to continue to evolve

Well, I am of the opinion that they already have done this. However, they have assimilated other methodologies into their given concepts and principles, rather than just turning their art into a mish mash of random MAs, which a given master may have found "useful".

IMHO, there is a reason for this approach and people should ask why and not assume that the past masters were not "intelligent" enough to just mix their arts as they come, without worrying about principles and concepts.


- ultimately, the idea of TCMA principles i relative and conditional - the boundaries are set because people set them,
Again, one must ask why masters with intimate knowledge of a given system or systems (knowledge even surpassing that of our resident forum "masters" lol) would set such boundaries.

The "why" of this is an interesting area of research. I mean after all, many of these masters did cross train themselves, as well......


not because of any absolute truth about them;

Is there an absolute truth about anything? Or at least, is there an absolute truth about the modern MMA approach?


and of course, here is where you and I differ, as I see everything as relative and nothing as absolute (of course, I am in good company, given that Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu say pretty much the same thing); thus, your characterizing something as an irrelevant art may not be because that art doesn't conform to TCMA principles, it may be that you yourself cannot appreciate that in fact there is a valid relationship between say, bok mei and MT, or Long Fist and BJJ, or CLF and Boxing;

There is a valid relationship among every fighting art on the planet. Yet, old masters did not mish mash the concepts and principles of a given art with that of another!

A serious TCMA-ists should ask why, without jumping into the MMA-ist mindset trap of thinking that these masters were ignorant and unaware of modern science, the benefits of Olympic Weightlifting, and what have you.



so before you deride others on their own supposed lack of insight, perhaps it is your own subjective bias that requires you to adhere to a preconception about how things are supposed to work;

Not just my "preconception" but that of genuine kung fu masters of the past and the present.



all things evolve and change; it is the only constant;

I agree, and will go on to say that the TCMAs have evolved and will evolve for long after you and I have left this plain. However, one would wish that the evolution would be carried out in the hands of genuine kung fu masters and exponents who have understood their arts, before going on to improve them, and not in the hands of Jack of All Trades, MMA-ists whose kung fu "knowledge" has over 95% chance of being total crap.

I am making a fair point here.


one cannot cling to the promises of the past, one must deal with what is directly in front of one;
The techniques of the past that I have been exposed to can more than take care of whatever that happens to be infront of me. If I loose, then I am man enough to place the blame on myself, and not on all of the TCMA methodologies under the sun.


there are many paths to the top of the mountain, and sometimes those paths cross in unexpected ways;
They do and they have. NO arguments from me there.


you have chosen yours, and it is one that is at base uncritical of and fully trusting in what you have discerned to be the authentic TCMA principles inherent to what you characterize as a valid art; and certainly many here agree with you;

Well, about the d@mn time too. :D


but many do not,

That would be around 95% plus of them, I would guess.


and to continue to call their qualifications to do so in a valid way is at best disingenuous;

No, I call it the way I see it. When people come out and say that forms are useless; Chi Sao is useless; imply benefits associated with Olympic Weight training in regards to Internal methodolgies they do not understand; say Internals are fantasy; roots training is irrelevant; recommend cross training kung fu from day one; recommend sparring from day one, and so on, then as a TCMA practitioner I can only draw one conclusion, and that is they are "lost in the woods" clueless as regards authentic TCMA training!

[taai gihk yahn]

But if you say that you did not take it as a personal comment, then so be it.
ok, fair enough; well, I suppose that it was more of a preemptive qualification, in the sense that while I do tend to favor more of a "scientific method" as a general modus operandi, I am not doing so blindly, and my reasons for favoring its primacy are that in general it yields me what I find to be the most productive means of examining things; but you are correct in that your comment was a genera one, so I wasn't construing it as a personal attack per se;

anyway, you do make some valid points; at the same time there are obviously some things about which we are in all likelihood going to have to agree to disagree, especially as speaks to the supposed "wisdom" of past masters and the rationale for why a given system was delineated as such - not that I discount it out of hand, but I do not feel compelled to be beholden to it either, and have what I believe is a healthy dose of skepticism (and i follow the definition of a skeptic as one who makes a decision based on available information, but who is also wiling to radically alter their viewpoint when new evidence comes to light);

[sanjuro_ronin]

some ignorant people like to deride the use of forms, yet practicing forms has been established and continued for thousands of years even still to this day... why on earth should we believe that forms have suddenly become obsolete in the face of modern McMartial Arts??? :D

BBWWAAHHHHHH !!!!
Nice one dude and everyone thinks you have no sense of humour !

[David Jamieson]

BBWWAAHHHHHH !!!!
Nice one dude and everyone thinks you have no sense of humour !

yeah, except for the "thousands of years" part, which is incorrect in respect to the establishment of formalized set training which is recent in respect to formalized martial arts delineation.

[uki]

you guy's ate this one right up... i believe forms are everything in the sense of they teach you to know your range, agility, speed, strengths, and weakness's of your bodies movements that can be utilized in combat. forms are self-expression and nothing more... if you express yourself with a healthy dose of intention, nothing you intend will go undone. forms are a medium of meditation to restore balance, harmony, and peace of mind. take it as you will, but the truly spiritual and upwardly mobile folks do not shy away from doing form...

without form there is nothing. ;)

[SPJ]

The day when you have reached to your 70 years old, you will have the following options:

Which one will give you the best result for:

- flexibility,
- balance,
- power,
- speed,
- endurance,
- body alignment?



inactivity is the da killer.

I would add

1. 10,000 steps walk or ba gua or tong bei stepping.

2. weight training with 5# dumbell, to strengthen your muscle. curl up, lateral raise, shoulder press, crunches--

3. swimming

power may be gonner. but speed may be still there.

4. diet and medication to take good care of your heart, blood pressure, cholesterol etc

actually activity will reduce your blood pressure and burn extra calorie already.

:)

[uki]

yeah, except for the "thousands of years" part, which is incorrect in respect to the establishment of formalized set training which is recent in respect to formalized martial arts delineation.forms have been around much longer than the human race. :p

[David Jamieson]

you guy's ate this one right up... i believe forms are everything in the sense of they teach you to know your range, agility, speed, strengths, and weakness's of your bodies movements that can be utilized in combat. forms are self-expression and nothing more... if you express yourself with a healthy dose of intention, nothing you intend will go undone. forms are a medium of meditation to restore balance, harmony, and peace of mind. take it as you will, but the truly spiritual and upwardly mobile folks do not shy away from doing form...

without form there is nothing. ;)

Forms are pre-arranged patterns.

They don't all have the same purpose. Some are a library of techniques, others are a prescribed path towards structural correction or health, others are for development of attributes elsewhere and so on.

they are a complex construct that not only escape the understanding of a great many people, but that escapes the understanding of people who actually practice them as well! lol

That's the best part in my opinion. hahhaha.

It's sometimes like someone who read a Dan Brown book trying to tell a Freemason what it's all about despite the masons years of work.

Or someone who just learned their first form, finally is able to remember teh pattern who then goes on to tell the world that he has discovered the one and true way of shaolin!

Enthusiasm can be an enemy... :)

[taai gihk yahn]

BBWWAAHHHHHH !!!!
Nice one dude and everyone thinks you have no sense of humour !
Shut up.


yeah, except for the "thousands of years" part, which is incorrect in respect to the establishment of formalized set training which is recent in respect to formalized martial arts delineation.
SHUT UP!


you guy's ate this one right up... i believe forms are everything in the sense of they teach you to know your range, agility, speed, strengths, and weakness's of your bodies movements that can be utilized in combat. forms are self-expression and nothing more... if you express yourself with a healthy dose of intention, nothing you intend will go undone. forms are a medium of meditation to restore balance, harmony, and peace of mind. take it as you will, but the truly spiritual and upwardly mobile folks do not shy away from doing form...

without form there is nothing. ;)
SHUT UP !!!

[SPJ]

froms are just moves bundled up with smooth transitions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZJ4l-hTkcs

wow zumba alt dance work out.

dance is a good activity when you are heading toward senior ville or silver hairs town.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsSrq3HBa7A

:)

[uki]

Forms are pre-arranged patterns.really??? what happens when you practice them with no pre-arranged pattern, but let the body follow the intention?? surely you are not denying the absence of set patterns in the higher elcheons of the martial masters...

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5izW9nE_Js&feature=related

for working out

repetition of a single move would give you some cardio, too.

circling hand or quan shou

splitting mountain or pi shan.

usually, we hit our thigh, the teacher added some difficulties in this clip.

they hit near ankle with a raised leg. that would force you to bend your back and extend your shoulder. this is the most important practice in tong bei or extended back or thru the back.

:cool:

[taai gihk yahn]

really??? what happens when you practice them with no pre-arranged pattern, but let the body follow the intention??
agreed! but what is the ground out of which that "intention" arises? what precedes that intention?


surely you are not denying the absence of set patterns in the higher elcheons of the martial masters...
the highest master is one without any precondition; if one looks, where can one find this person?

[David Jamieson]

really??? what happens when you practice them with no pre-arranged pattern, but let the body follow the intention?? surely you are not denying the absence of set patterns in the higher elcheons of the martial masters...

children must learn to speak, then they learn the construct of language, then they learn to read and write and then, much later, they can express themselves with words that are formed with their own intention.

Forms are the alphabet and sentence writing exercises in respect to fighting technique sets.

To take the principles of combat, and set them to a prearranged pattern is nothing new.

Expressing into empty air has no intention and only the flavour of it.

Expressing combat with correct intention requires that you be in combat. :)

Forms are training tools. They are not required to learn or to know how to fight and quite often can conceal that reality from the practitioner who gets wrapped up in the finger and misses the heavenry grory that is the moon! :)

[wenshu]

children must learn to speak, then they learn the construct of language, then they learn to read and write and then, much later, they can express themselves with words that are formed with their own intention.

Forms are the alphabet and sentence writing exercises in respect to fighting technique sets.


Child language acquisition is a poor analogy for martial arts practice.

No one teaches children how to speak a language. Language is acquired by virtue of exposure.

Adult language acquisition maybe, but even that is a bit of a stretch.

Forms are just another tool.

Forms aren't the problem. ****ty martial artists are.

[taai gihk yahn]

children must learn to speak, then they learn the construct of language, then they learn to read and write and then, much later, they can express themselves with words that are formed with their own intention.



No one teaches children how to speak a language. Language is acquired by virtue of exposure.

careful now, you two; you never know who may be watching...
http://www.changeany1thing.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/noam_chomsky.jpg

[wenshu]

careful now, you two; you never know who may be watching...
http://www.changeany1thing.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/noam_chomsky.jpg

Ha!

He's too busy drawing X-bar diagrams trying to parse Hardwork108's posts.

[David Jamieson]

Child language acquisition is a poor analogy for martial arts practice. I disagree, I think the point is not martial arts but it is about learning from the void.


No one teaches children how to speak a language. Language is acquired by virtue of exposure. That's right and everything we are taught, we learn by doing. Language is learned and is taught, but the mechanisms for these are not formal and are about nourishment and cultivation in an organic way. BUt, nevertheless, the child is later instructed on how to properly read and write and when i learned, we also were taught grammar and root languages. I understand these are forgone now and many learn through phonics type teaching methods.


Adult language acquisition maybe, but even that is a bit of a stretch.
Not at all, the refinements and nuances of language are learned through higher study. Many who have had higher education have a far greater command and understanding of the language they used to acquire said education.


Forms are just another tool. Yes, they can be. Tool for what? I believe that's the big question. I view them more as a style's language really. lol


Forms aren't the problem. ****ty martial artists are. Sh1tty martial artists are never a problem. They just are what they are. lol

[brianlkennedy]

The opening post in this thread said in passing; "yet practicing forms has been established and continued for thousands of years even still to this day". That actually raises an interesting historical point. And let me define my terms at the outset; to me a "form" is a preset series of techniques, usually done solo, with more than 4 or 5 moves. If it is under 5 moves than I view it more as a "combo" than a full blown "form".

The oldest documented evidence we have for forms practice in Chinese martial arts is from the very late 1890s. The older Qing and Ming manuals do not (at least as far as I have seen) make an reference to forms. What the Ming manuals show are "combos" of techniques but not forms.

Forms practice as we know it may well be a pretty modern thing. I do not know that for a fact, but I kind of suspect it.

take care,
Brian

[wenshu]

I disagree, I think the point is not martial arts but it is about learning from the void.

That's right and everything we are taught, we learn by doing. Language is learned and is taught, but the mechanisms for these are not formal and are about nourishment and cultivation in an organic way. BUt, nevertheless, the child is later instructed on how to properly read and write and when i learned, we also were taught grammar and root languages. I understand these are forgone now and many learn through phonics type teaching methods.


Not at all, the refinements and nuances of language are learned through higher study. Many who have had higher education have a far greater command and understanding of the language they used to acquire said education.

Yes, they can be. Tool for what? I believe that's the big question. I view them more as a style's language really. lol

Sh1tty martial artists are never a problem. They just are what they are. lol

You don't know $hit about linguistics.

Learning from the void?

This vague pseudo-mystical gibberish is part of the reason for the sorry state of Chinese martial arts in the west.

[David Jamieson]

You don't know $hit about linguistics.

Learning from the void?

This vague pseudo-mystical gibberish is part of the reason for the sorry state of Chinese martial arts in the west.

reads like misplaced anger directed at me...ok, whatever. my knowledge of language and linguistics is fine for all intents and purposes thank you very much. :)

coming in from the void = coming in from a place where you do not know.

Perhaps the sorry state isn't sorry at all but rather has to do with cultural expression which is viewed with prejudicial eyes that determine that because they do not immediately savvy, it must therefore be mystical gibberish?

Again, I disagree with your assessment. But you are certainly entitled to it. :)

[wenshu]

The opening post in this thread said in passing; "yet practicing forms has been established and continued for thousands of years even still to this day". That actually raises an interesting historical point. And let me define my terms at the outset; to me a "form" is a preset series of techniques, usually done solo, with more than 4 or 5 moves. If it is under 5 moves than I view it more as a "combo" than a full blown "form".

The oldest documented evidence we have for forms practice in Chinese martial arts is from the very late 1890s. The older Qing and Ming manuals do not (at least as far as I have seen) make an reference to forms. What the Ming manuals show are "combos" of techniques but not forms.

Forms practice as we know it may well be a pretty modern thing. I do not know that for a fact, but I kind of suspect it.

take care,
Brian

Thanks!

The lack of extant documentation does not necessarily preclude the existence of forms practice as you defined it, but it's hard to argue with easily verifiable historical documentation.

[wenshu]

reads like misplaced anger directed at me...ok, whatever. my knowledge of language and linguistics is fine for all intents and purposes thank you very much. :)

Projecting emotion onto my admittedly vulgar criticism is a roundabout way of belittling me. Thats cool.


coming in from the void = coming in from a place where you do not know.

Perhaps the sorry state isn't sorry at all but rather has to do with cultural expression which is viewed with prejudicial eyes that determine that because they do not immediately savvy, it must therefore be mystical gibberish?


What the what?

[David Jamieson]

Projecting emotion onto my admittedly vulgar criticism is a roundabout way of belittling me. Thats cool.
I believe you made a remark inferring that my education was lacking. You used an epithet and when you say "x's" "y" is "sh1tty" then it's probably safe to assume you are having an emotional reaction to that which was stated as opposed to you know, debating the point with a counterpoint.




What the what? NO one is here to teach you how to comprehend. That is up to you. :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

What I find interesting is the concept that just because something is old, it is good. This couldn't be further from the truth. As time passes, intellect and thought processes grow and expand, making technologies of all sorts greater. If you look throughout history you will see time periods marked by great leaps in technology, intelligence, and and overall cultural shift towards abstract thought.

I believe forms have their place in martial arts. What that place is is determined by the practioner and how he/she develops from these forms. Forms are generally just basics done in a pre-set manner. There are skills one can gain by this practice, but there are other training methods that produce skill at a more beneficial level and rate. Since I'm sure I will be bombarded with people saying that is my opinion, yes, it is. But it also the opinion of those who fight professionally for a living. I'll take their opinion over someone who has never fought in their life.

But in the end, do what you want. Why do we care so much if somone does forms or not, if someone fights or not, if someone has "teh real" Kung Fu or not. Jesus, this sh**it gets old.:rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

What I find interesting is the concept that just because something is old, it is good. This couldn't be further from the truth. As time passes, intellect and thought processes grow and expand, making technologies of all sorts greater. If you look throughout history you will see time periods marked by great leaps in technology, intelligence, and and overall cultural shift towards abstract thought.

I believe forms have their place in martial arts. What that place is is determined by the practioner and how he/she develops from these forms. Forms are generally just basics done in a pre-set manner. There are skills one can gain by this practice, but there are other training methods that produce skill at a more beneficial level and rate. Since I'm sure I will be bombarded with people saying that is my opinion, yes, it is. But it also the opinion of those who fight professionally for a living. I'll take their opinion over someone who has never fought in their life.

But in the end, do what you want. Why do we care so much if somone does forms or not, if someone fights or not, if someone has "teh real" Kung Fu or not. Jesus, this sh**it gets old.:rolleyes:

In your view, regarding fighting, what is new?
How about the human body? What's new?

lol.

I can think of lots of "new" ideas that are utter shyte.

For instance, the harmonized sales tax in Canada. lol
In America, TSA airport policies.
Around the world; "counter terrorism measures"

and so on...

There is plenty of value in many old things.

Take a pyramid on the giza plateau for instance. You show me one building from modern times with the staying power of that one.

Also, last but not least. Bread and Beer.

That's right, I said it, Bread and Beer. Two of the greatest and most aged recipes lost in antiquity and yet, you would never argue that Beer is bad or that Bread is passe. :)

[Iron_Eagle_76]

In your view, regarding fighting, what is new?
How about the human body? What's new?

lol.

I can think of lots of "new" ideas that are utter shyte.

For instance, the harmonized sales tax in Canada. lol
In America, TSA airport policies.
Around the world; "counter terrorism measures"

and so on...

There is plenty of value in many old things.

Take a pyramid on the giza plateau for instance. You show me one building from modern times with the staying power of that one.

Also, last but not least. Bread and Beer.

That's right, I said it, Bread and Beer. Two of the greatest and most aged recipes lost in antiquity and yet, you would never argue that Beer is bad or that Bread is passe. :)

LOL, ok, we'll stick to fighting. Your right, nothing is new about the human body. We still have two arms, two legs, one head, yada, yada. But athletes are greater due to science and technology. Supplements, vitamins, strength training methods, all have contributed to making a better athlete. Modern training methods are not necessarily brand new, but more modern than most. Hitting mitts in boxing has been around a long time, maybe as long as forms, but likely more modern in that sense of it. I know which I find more effective.

In combat sports, look at the UFC's. Do you think any of them in their prime would stand a chance against a modern fighter now in their prime. Doubtful. Gracie got destroyed by Matt Hughes, granted he was way past his prime, but Hughes made him look like a novice, and Royce was the great champion of the first couple UFC's. All things evolve, if not, they are stagnant and dead. Fighting will always evolve in that sense.

[Hardwork108]

What I find interesting is the concept that just because something is old, it is good

As opposed to what, just because something is new, it is good??? Which is the same argument, except that the old, is many times, tried and tested!!!

[David Jamieson]

I think supplements are used to no avail in many incidences.
Plenty of people just pi55 away all that vitamin goodness they took in, or destroy it with some crap they ate earlier etc.

Yes, there is value in supplements, but supplements are what you ahve when you don't get access to a solid and healthy diet.

Guys on caveman diets doing crossfit routines are wicked hella strong and super fit and use no supplements. :) So, they are not a requirement and are a stop gap to poor dietary habits. That has less to do with fitness than to do with making the gateway for it for a person with poor dietary habits.

Strength training methods? the best ones these days are the functional strength development routines and those are based off of doing hard farm or fishery work. So, that is sort of supplemental to that! lol Do hard work and it's likely you won't have to do "work like" weight routines in the gym.

People of ancient Crete wore boxing gloves when boxing.
Many of the device training methods like weights, bags, stones, balls, etc are the same as they have always been. The materials are different and I think nautilus machines are a big advance in weight lifting because they keep everything in one place and are convenient, but, there isn't anything new about training really. People can just explain how they got their results better it seems to me.

Early UFCs had no weight categories and no one really stuck to the training they do now. It is now a style of it's own made up of kick/punch/throw/lock with preference towards martial arts that focus on those limited techniques then combined into a larger martial study.

So, would a lightweight UFC guy beat a Heavyweight UFC guy of yesteryear? Under whose rules? It was a different game.

Kung Fu is a different practice than MMA, which is different than boxing, which is different from wrestling , which is different from weapons study and so on.

It really is apples to oranges, or more accurately, the color blue to and asteroid named ted way out in the oort cloud.

Ok, maybe not that big of a stretch, but enough of a difference that comparing one to the other is mere pretext to some strawman argument about to be put forth by someone who is going to sell you lessons in his mma classes or someone selling you something the other way round.

My spin, is to do that which is preferable to me. :)

I realy don't care how deadly someone thinks they are, they won't be that for long and the more they go on about it, the more likely and the sooner it will be that someone comes and takes their deadly away. :p

[Mas Judt]

In combat sports, look at the UFC's. Do you think any of them in their prime would stand a chance against a modern fighter now in their prime. Doubtful. Gracie got destroyed by Matt Hughes, granted he was way past his prime, but Hughes made him look like a novice, and Royce was the great champion of the first couple UFC's. All things evolve, if not, they are stagnant and dead. Fighting will always evolve in that sense.

I'm not so sure it is a evolution as it is a revolution. As the rules change and as popular fight strategies change, so do the counters and new approaches. But most of it isn't anything completely new, merely a turn of the wheel.

[SoCo KungFu]

You guys have the concept of evolution misunderstood. Evolution in no way has to be progressive. Evolution can be quite regressive. Its simply a change. Nothing more. Human beings still have the same 2 arms and 2 legs. The environment is what has changed. Everyone was doing they're own little martial arts in their own relatively secluded regions of the world. Its the globalization of martials arts, really ALL martial arts these days, that is bring about the change. Chinaman meets the American boxer, only on a completely global scale. MMA doesn't bring anything "new." Its still an evolution taking place, everything is now just being jumbled up and practitioners of every art now have to figure out what they're missing. You know mutts are typically the healthiest dogs right?

[Syn7]

I may have missed that because I have interacted with plenty of IDIOTS who BLINDLY follow modern "science" and BLINDLY put down TCMA practices that they cannot explain using their BLIND belief in science.

I have seen such people who, when faced with a TCMA striking technique that they cannot understand (using their modern scientific training knowledge base) will not hesitate to hypothesize that the master who created the technique had some physical disability that made him do and teach what he did. Of course, they will assume that his disabilities had gone unnoticed by his pupils and future masters of the system.....LOL!

Yes these are people that will not think outside of their "scientific" boxes, to which they cling on blindly!

By your definition the above people are IDIOTS. So, you and I finally agree on something.....

oh but you forgot to include yourself for not reading something before you offer your critique...

we can agree on that all day, backpeddler....

[Syn7]

your argument is a rather unclear here; first you say you can learn to fight both by practicing forms and then by not practicing them; you hedge your bets by trying to qualify it that maybe forms are obsolete, and end with a vague statement about what may or may not be practical


so you basically admit that it was your personal perception of non-forms training as monotonous that causes you to choose forms training over more "mundane" repetative execises that may in fact allow you to more effectively and efficiently target the areas you need to work on; meaning that for you, you need to be entertained enough to practice something, the end results are not the only consideration, in fact you are willing to possibly gain less at the end as long as you are not bored on the way; which is fine, no judegement about that, but that's the long and short of it;


unless you are moving spontaneously without following a set routine, you are not shadow boxing;


yes you can; in fact, instead of "discovering" applications in forms that are based on your projection of what you think will work, why not just train the techniques you learn in a relatively live setting against a resisting opponent? like that you will discover what actually works as opposed to what you think might work;


and that right there is the crux of your argument; and no one can argue against your personal preference, nor should they; however, this does not give you or anyone the ability to generalize about something beyond that;


again, this is projection - unless he is actively going out and testing what he has discerned against resisting opponents who are not his students or training brothers, he has no way of knowing if his conjecture is valid;


I hate to say this, but you really don't make much sense here, you are kind of all over the place - you offer a variety of opinions, but offer no basis other than your personal preference for why they should hold true; and that's fine, for you as an individual; but you have no basis to generalize your comments


again, you say one thing than you say the opposite: "forms alone may not be enough" - well then, you really don't know one way or the other...


because there are other forms of exercise that can get you these benefits much more efficiently than TCMA forms - Feldenkreis, Piates, Alexander Technique, yoga, qigong, Ariga Gym, Laban - all modalties developed primarilly for health - how could a practice designed for martial use primarilly possibly hope to be more effective for health maintenance than a system designed primarilly for that purpose?


that's fine, but again, you make assertions that appear to be generalizations, when in fact you are stating, in a somewhat convoluted manner, your own personal rationale for why you do forms, which boils down to the fact that you like doing forms; which is fine; but that doesn't establish any sort of objective criteria for their utility as regards development of fighting skill as opposed to other methods;

come on T... leave the kid alone... he's the anus striker...!!!

[Syn7]

i follow the definition of a skeptic as one who makes a decision based on available information, but who is also wiling to radically alter their viewpoint when new evidence comes to light);


its crazy how many people dont see it that way.... i said the same thing, in other words to ED...

[Syn7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5izW9nE_Js&feature=related

for working out

repetition of a single move would give you some cardio, too.

circling hand or quan shou

splitting mountain or pi shan.

usually, we hit our thigh, the teacher added some difficulties in this clip.

they hit near ankle with a raised leg. that would force you to bend your back and extend your shoulder. this is the most important practice in tong bei or extended back or thru the back.

:cool:

thats awesome exercise... the first part, done many times with power... i'll never disagree with that...

[Syn7]

froms are just moves bundled up with smooth transitions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZJ4l-hTkcs

wow zumba alt dance work out.

i like the fat guy in the back...

[Syn7]

I believe you made a remark inferring that my education was lacking. You used an epithet and when you say "x's" "y" is "sh1tty" then it's probably safe to assume you are having an emotional reaction to that which was stated as opposed to you know, debating the point with a counterpoint.



NO one is here to teach you how to comprehend. That is up to you. :)

wow... you really are a defensive guy huh...

[Syn7]

In your view, regarding fighting, what is new?
How about the human body? What's new?

lol.

I can think of lots of "new" ideas that are utter shyte.

For instance, the harmonized sales tax in Canada. lol
In America, TSA airport policies.
Around the world; "counter terrorism measures"

and so on...

There is plenty of value in many old things.

Take a pyramid on the giza plateau for instance. You show me one building from modern times with the staying power of that one.

Also, last but not least. Bread and Beer.

That's right, I said it, Bread and Beer. Two of the greatest and most aged recipes lost in antiquity and yet, you would never argue that Beer is bad or that Bread is passe. :)

there is no cumulitive effect if you stick with the old... keep the good toss the bad and look for new and better things while keeping what you know on par with the world around you... and today we are global... not as much as we will be in 20 years, or 50 years, but a whole lot more than 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago...



and we can talk wine if you want coz thats something i know about... and believe me you wouldnt drink the best falernian in a roman aristocrats collection, it was all pi$s compared to what we get for 8 bucks now... so just think how far the we've come in wine making... yes wine is good with age if bottled properly, but only to an extent... and todays wine will be a whole lot better than 100 year old wine today in 100 years... thats a fact...

[mooyingmantis]

You guys have the concept of evolution misunderstood. Evolution in no way has to be progressive. Evolution can be quite regressive. Its simply a change. Nothing more. Human beings still have the same 2 arms and 2 legs. The environment is what has changed. Everyone was doing they're own little martial arts in their own relatively secluded regions of the world. Its the globalization of martials arts, really ALL martial arts these days, that is bring about the change. Chinaman meets the American boxer, only on a completely global scale. MMA doesn't bring anything "new." Its still an evolution taking place, everything is now just being jumbled up and practitioners of every art now have to figure out what they're missing. You know mutts are typically the healthiest dogs right?

Nicely put!

[Syn7]

Nicely put!

word... the more dilluted the genepool, the stronger the subject...

[Shaolin]

http://rlv.zcache.com/gold_jacket_green_jacket_poster-p228262327935711838tdcp_400.jpg

[uki]

agreed! but what is the ground out of which that "intention" arises? what precedes that intention?mind is the path.



the highest master is one without any precondition; if one looks, where can one find this person?mirror, mirror, on the wall... ;)

[MightyB]

I believe forms have their place in martial arts. What that place is is determined by the practioner and how he/she develops from these forms. Forms are generally just basics done in a pre-set manner. There are skills one can gain by this practice, but there are other training methods that produce skill at a more beneficial level and rate. Since I'm sure I will be bombarded with people saying that is my opinion, yes, it is. But it also the opinion of those who fight professionally for a living. I'll take their opinion over someone who has never fought in their life.

But in the end, do what you want. Why do we care so much if somone does forms or not, if someone fights or not, if someone has "teh real" Kung Fu or not. Jesus, this sh**it gets old.:rolleyes:

Like he said - forms are what you want them to be. I'll even go as far as saying that if forms are your focus, then you should explore what the Wushu guys are doing because they bring a good dynamic to "forms training for forms sake".

[MasterKiller]

really??? what happens when you practice them with no pre-arranged pattern, but let the body follow the intention?? surely you are not denying the absence of set patterns in the higher elcheons of the martial masters...

That's called shadow-boxing, my fren.

[tiaji1983]

your argument is a rather unclear here; first you say you can learn to fight both by practicing forms and then by not practicing them; you hedge your bets by trying to qualify it that maybe forms are obsolete, and end with a vague statement about what may or may not be practical

Basically Im saying both are legitimate ways of training...

so you basically admit that it was your personal perception of non-forms training as monotonous that causes you to choose forms training over more "mundane" repetative execises that may in fact allow you to more effectively and efficiently target the areas you need to work on; meaning that for you, you need to be entertained enough to practice something, the end results are not the only consideration, in fact you are willing to possibly gain less at the end as long as you are not bored on the way; which is fine, no judegement about that, but that's the long and short of it;

I meant with a form you can train more than one thing instead of just one at a time...

unless you are moving spontaneously without following a set routine, you are not shadow boxing;

WHich is why I stated that sometimes when doing the form I go outside of the form, meaning I will do a movement in the form and try something else from there, making it different, in essence making it shadow boxing...

yes you can; in fact, instead of "discovering" applications in forms that are based on your projection of what you think will work, why not just train the techniques you learn in a relatively live setting against a resisting opponent? like that you will discover what actually works as opposed to what you think might work;

Which is why I mention also doing application training with a partner. I choose applications from the form that I learned doing the form to try, and if they work I find linking movements, if they dont then I try something different.


and that right there is the crux of your argument; and no one can argue against your personal preference, nor should they; however, this does not give you or anyone the ability to generalize about something beyond that;

The whole point of my post is both ways are correct, but forms are not outdated cuz you can still learn using forms...

again, this is projection - unless he is actively going out and testing what he has discerned against resisting opponents who are not his students or training brothers, he has no way of knowing if his conjecture is valid;

I have tested it playing around with people I never trained with, I just havent used it in an actual fight yet. But I will and Ill let yall know what happens.

I hate to say this, but you really don't make much sense here, you are kind of all over the place - you offer a variety of opinions, but offer no basis other than your personal preference for why they should hold true; and that's fine, for you as an individual; but you have no basis to generalize your comments

I made points on how forms help me learn personally.


again, you say one thing than you say the opposite: "forms alone may not be enough" - well then, you really don't know one way or the other...

Forms alone can teach you applications, and how to move, and develop power, but if you never try the applications it is possible that what your learning is only fantasy, or everything you learn could actually work. Depends.


because there are other forms of exercise that can get you these benefits much more efficiently than TCMA forms - Feldenkreis, Piates, Alexander Technique, yoga, qigong, Ariga Gym, Laban - all modalties developed primarilly for health - how could a practice designed for martial use primarilly possibly hope to be more effective for health maintenance than a system designed primarilly for that purpose?

You do not agree that Taijiquan has health benefits on its own? So if I practice Taijiquan for health and martial arts, why do I need one of those other systems?

that's fine, but again, you make assertions that appear to be generalizations, when in fact you are stating, in a somewhat convoluted manner, your own personal rationale for why you do forms, which boils down to the fact that you like doing forms; which is fine; but that doesn't establish any sort of objective criteria for their utility as regards development of fighting skill as opposed to other methods;

Im sorry for the confusion, I wasnt trying to argue that forms were better, I was trying to make a point that they can be effective as well, and can do more than just learning fighting techniques.

[SoCo KungFu]

Im sorry for the confusion, I wasnt trying to argue that forms were better, I was trying to make a point that they can be effective as well, and can do more than just learning fighting techniques.

#1 Learn how to properly insert responses into a quoted text box. Kinda like this here...


The whole point of my post is both ways are correct, but forms are not outdated cuz you can still learn using forms...


You can still raise a barn or build a house using wooden hammers and labor animals but its terribly inefficient by comparison to use of modern equipment and engineering strategies. Yet some communities still cling to their outdated methods due to personal beliefs. But those methods are still outdated. Forms are no different. Sure you might learn something from them, but that way of training is incredibly inefficient (if not detrimental) by comparison to methods employed by "modern" "sport" or "whatever other catch phrase term you wish to use," arts. Which is rather funny in its own right, since there's nothing really modern or sport oriented about it all. Back in the day before kung fu forgot how to work out and train, it was just the normal ****...

[YouKnowWho]

The ancient forms do have some problem. One problem is the original form creators might not have an overall CMA picture. When an ancient

- striker created a form, that form would not have throwing techniques.
- thrower created a form, that form would not have striking techniques.

You won't be able to find this combo sequence

- kick, punch, arm wrap, throw, knee drop, head punch.

in any TCMA forms that exist on this planet. Why? Because a true kick, punch, lock, throw, follow on strike integration form just do not exist.

My question is, "Do you think it's better to create your own form in order to deal with the different modern world (which is different from the ancient world)?" Will it be nice to have the following combos,

- right jab, left cross, right upper cut, left upper cut, right hook, left hook,
- front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, under hook, knee strike, outer hook, elbow strike,
- ...

as part of your "modern" from that you have created (for easy of teaching)?

[bawang]

the form itself doesnt tell u anything . its very incomplete.

for example the move where u slap ur elbow, its everywhere even karate hasthat technique.

"井栏四平直进，剪臁踢膝当头。滚穿劈靠抹一钩，铁样将军也走"

the fist poem from qijiguaqngs book says its a one hand neck clinch. u can sweep and knee the face, hook, pierce, hammerfist, elbow, neck twist, uppercut. but the movement in the form is just slapping ur elbow. and lots of people today interpret the technique as make a bridge, grab wrist and break elbow. its useless now.

forms were never meant to teach , only as a reminder.

also its common to combine multiple similar techniques into one posture.

[YouKnowWho]

I'll have different translation on this poem.

"井栏四平直进，剪臁踢膝当头。滚穿劈靠抹一钩，铁样将军也走"

When you want to enter, you can sweep your opponent's leading leg or kick his leading leg knee to force him to pull back that leg. When he does that, you can use your striking skill (punch, pierce, palm chop, shoulder strike, neck mopping) to cover your leg hooking on his back leg. This way no matter how tuff he is, he will have to fall.

This way you have covered the entering strategy and use your kick and punch to set up your throw. The missing part is what will happen after you have thrown your opponent down? TCMA does not address that issue very well. You don't have to go down with your opponent but some kind of follow on striking will be needed to knock your opponent out.

[bawang]

northern martial arts use stomping and hammerfist when the guy fall down. its common move in form. "stamping" and "ground cannon" "sea bottom"
The ancient forms do have some problem. One problem is the original form creators might not have an overall CMA picture. When an ancient

- striker created a form, that form would not have throwing techniques.
- thrower created a form, that form would not have striking techniques.

You won't be able to find this combo sequence

- kick, punch, arm wrap, throw, knee drop, head punch.

long fist poem for hip throw
朝阳手偏身防腿。无缝锁逼退豪英。倒阵势弹他一脚，好教师也丧声名
"combine uppercut and kick with hip throw"

[uki]

children must learn to speak, then they learn the construct of language, then they learn to read and write and then, much later, they can express themselves with words that are formed with their own intention.

Forms are the alphabet and sentence writing exercises in respect to fighting technique sets.

To take the principles of combat, and set them to a prearranged pattern is nothing new.

Expressing into empty air has no intention and only the flavour of it.

Expressing combat with correct intention requires that you be in combat. :)

Forms are training tools. They are not required to learn or to know how to fight and quite often can conceal that reality from the practitioner who gets wrapped up in the finger and misses the heavenry grory that is the moon! :)you know i spent a variety of time ruminating this post here when it suddenly occurred to me a fundamentual flaw in your analogy... i believe forms are like letters of an alphabet - they can be constructed into sentences of all written languages and are not conformed to one language alone - not to mention the words made up of the same set of letters, which have totally different meanings in another written word halfway across the globe. ;)

i do commend your efforts in understanding the true nature of the way. :p

[David Jamieson]

you know i spent a variety of time ruminating this post here when it suddenly occurred to me a fundamentual flaw in your analogy... i believe forms are like letters of an alphabet - they can be constructed into sentences of all written languages and are not conformed to one language alone - not to mention the words made up of the same set of letters, which have totally different meanings in another written word halfway across the globe. ;)

i do commend your efforts in understanding the true nature of the way. :p

a variety of time? so, a half dozen 2 o'clocks a few 4:15 ishes and a 7:28 or two? :D

yes, language is a neuro-programming mechanism. It doesn't matter what the language is, it is generally learned in the same way all across all languages and cultures.

I make no effort to understand the way. lol. I could care less in fact. :)

[uki]

a variety of time? so, a half dozen 2 o'clocks a few 4:15 ishes and a 7:28 or two? yeah... sometimes the brain is not engaged while the fingers are typing.


yes, language is a neuro-programming mechanism. It doesn't matter what the language is, it is generally learned in the same way all across all languages and cultures.reminds me of forms. :p


I make no effort to understand the way. lol. I could care less in fact. now we all know that apathy is not a proper conduit of productivity. :D

[David Jamieson]

yeah... sometimes the brain is not engaged while the fingers are typing.
reminds me of forms. :p
now we all know that apathy is not a proper conduit of productivity. :D

In my view, you can't understand "the way". The more you try to intellectualize it, the further it goes away from you.
Better to fetch wood and carry water, the way will be, whether I try to understand it or not and in the meantime, I need to take care of living my life. :)

for me, that's as close to understanding the way that can be had. Doing.

[curenado]

People just like having fun and getting attention. The weakness of this "modern" Wu Shu is that it makes forms ridiculous exercises of vanity. They, like every other fragment and aspect have their value when considered and applied.
I believe in being eclectic and no one here is trained for "show", but we still have forms as a basis of physical and technique training.

A system can be so well represented in it's forms that even one who has not practiced in years can easily remember and return.

What the "masses" are doing should be a giant clue (red flag) anyway - lemming-fu and rock head-do have their own traditions and keep the masses busy meeting their needs in environments where they can be accepted.

[Lucas]

I have some of my best ideas while working form.

[SPJ]

I took apart the old forms.

I made my own forms or short sets all the time.

I sequenced a few moves that work as a combo and drill them to death.

bored then move on.


----

[David Jamieson]

I took apart the old forms.

I made my own forms or short sets all the time.

I sequenced a few moves that work as a combo and drill them to death.

bored then move on.


----

get a partner to work with and you will not get bored. :)

[uki]

get a partner to work with and you will not get bored. i just built a wing chuny kinda dummy.

I have some of my best ideas while working form.aye... always a light bulb going on.

[Lucas]

i just built a wing chuny kinda dummy.
aye... always a light bulb going on.

its great when you start a form then realize your done. what was going on in there? :eek::confused:

maybe nothing lol