my visit with hendrik

[theo]

Hey all,

Recently I was visiting some family and along the way made the journey up to visit Hendrik and wanted to share about the experience with all of us WCners. It was a great experience and I thank him for taking the time to share with me. All credit and respect to Hendrik, GM CHC and the ancestors.

The first day, I did a short demo of my SLT and the first thing mentioned was that my lower body was not connected. I theoretically knew the description and meaning of it but it wasn't until Hendrik pointed this out that I realized I was actually guilty of it! From there, we discussed the six direction force. All three-dimensional motion can be described as a combination of these pairs. Each pair must be balanced to maintain a neutral body. When all forces are balanced, then the net force on the body should be zero.

I also saw the first section of the Yik Kam SLT. Hendrik was very soft and fluid in his movements, and when observed closely, the entire body is alive in the stance with balanced 6 direction force. What good is the training of a dynamic sensing art if our bodies are locked down and rigid? We are only stuck dead, bolted to the ground. But a live SLT is in dynamic balance, the movement in the details...

A great Hendrik quote is: The 6 directional force is the ticket to enter the movie theater.

We then discussed a little about what is hua jing and peng jing. For peng jing, I placed both hands on Hendrik's arm and he generated a ward-off type of force that when I pressed, was like pushing against a wall. For hua jing, Hendrik allowed me to find his center of gravity and then easily adjusted so that I could not find it again.

Also, let me also say that Hendrik was able to generate some impressive force even though he was just showing some concepts. So, even though I ain't seen nothing yet, it was pretty cool!

[CFT]

Thanks for sharing your experience Theo. Sounds similar to visits by other people to Hendrik. He has many detractors on the forum but his real life persona seems much different to the online one.

[Hendrik]

I have shown you these in the real world
http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=13374#13374

The rest is your journey and your own karma.

[theo]

Glad you liked it CFT.

During my visit, we went over some simple walking exercises that are easy to do and will have great benefit in loosening up the body. The first one is forward backward movement and the second one involves twisting spine movements. Each of them open up different energy channels and should be performed naturally, loosely. You should not feel tired after doing this simple exercise but light and refreshed.

1. With hands on the hips starting from a neutral stance, first take a step with the left foot, stepping out with the left heel. There is a slight bend at the waist before finishing the step (only heel was touching before, now the whole foot is) and then slide the dan tien area forward, letting most of the body weight rest on the leg in front. Then repeat on the other side.

2. The next walking exercise. Starting from neutral stance, we take a step forward and place the foot at almost a 90 degree angle to our front facing direction. The back foot is in natural forward facing direction. We then do the same thing on the opposite side.

Whether or not you believe in energy channels, qi, these are simple exercises that can benefit your health with daily practice. Big thanks to Hendrik for sharing this with us all!

[theo]

I have shown you these in the real world
http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=13374#13374

The rest is your journey and your own karma.

All respect to you, GM CHC, Yik Kam and the ancestors! I for one value and appreciate all of the teachings and preservation with great consideration.

And will keep you updated on how things go, Won't forget the source of the water! :D

[Runlikehell]

Very interesting. I'm going to try these walking exercises for myself.

[Graham H]

Thanks for sharing your experience Theo. Sounds similar to visits by other people to Hendrik. He has many detractors on the forum but his real life persona seems much different to the online one.

As I guess it would be with everybody.................... even Terence. :p:D:D:D

[Hendrik]

During my visit, we went over some simple walking exercises that are easy to do and will have great benefit in loosening up the body. The first one is forward backward movement and the second one involves twisting spine movements. Each of them open up different energy channels and should be performed naturally, loosely. You should not feel tired after doing this simple exercise but light and refreshed.....


These are taken out from the Yik Kam salutation... two basic conditioning of the body, the forward backward loosing of spine and the twisting loosing of spine... thus they cover the basic of the body movements, open up different sets of medirians...

It has a good benifit to health if one do it everyday for 100 steps with ease like extremely light walking, when the stomach is not full or about an hour after eating. Remember if while doing it one doesnt feel good. stop doing it. using the body as the indication. dont feel good is an indication of either did it wrong or not suit to the body..

the first one looks like 21.17 --22. the second one looks like 23.40 with the hand rest on the waist. all got to do with medirians....

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/PCfwINzHcGs/


I have been working on reconstructing the details of what is there in the 4 section Yik Kam slt for decades... so it is not just a set but lots of stuffs in it....

Dont do or do too many of the first one if one has a LOW blood pressure condition. Never do all of step with heavy breathing (if one could heard one's breathing it is too heavy, if one trying to manual the breathing that is too heavy, one needs to let the breathing flow by itself unnotice and relax, no physical brute force either)

[Hendrik]

All respect to you, GM CHC, Yik Kam and the ancestors! I for one value and appreciate all of the teachings and preservation with great consideration.

And will keep you updated on how things go, Won't forget the source of the water! :D

You are welcome.

[kung fu fighter]

He is pushing right in my chest, so I dont have arm to change and also since it is chest no step or angle to change. Let Theo tell you..

Thanks for the reply Hendrik!

So you are adjusting the angle of your body in relation to the opponent's force so that the opponent can't can't find a solid place to exert his force onto, as he would if you were doing peng jin? ( similar to yang lu chan holding a sparrow in his hand and not allowing it to take off because he adjust to the sparrow's leg pressure)

I had a friend who did wu tai chi whom as well as wing chun, in chi sao he was able to do this really well when you apply force against his body.

[Hendrik]

Thanks for the reply Hendrik!

So you are adjusting the angle of your body in relation to the opponent's force so that the opponent can't can't find a solid place to exert his force onto, as he would if you were doing peng jin? ( similar to yang lu chan holding a sparrow in his hand and not allowing it to take off because he adjust to the sparrow's leg pressure)

I had a friend who did wu tai chi whom as well as wing chun, in chi sao he was able to do this really well when you apply force against his body.



I delete my reply post because I like to leave it to Theo.

Your theory sound interesting however what you think is not what I do. Read my post again, I clearly said nothing todo with angle.

[JPinAZ]

These are taken out from the Yik Kam salutation... two basic conditioning of the body, the forward backward loosing of spine and the twisting loosing of spine... thus they cover the basic of the body movements, open up different sets of medirians...

I have been working on reconstructing the details of what is there in the 4 section Yik Kam slt for decades... so it is not just a set but lots of stuffs in it....


Curious why you would have to 'reconstruct' yik kam slt for so long? (specially if you are lineage holder as you claim to be) Didn't you learn these things from your sifu when you learned YK WC decades ago?

[Hendrik]

Curious why you would have to 'reconstruct' yik kam slt for so long?

That depend on how deep and details and maximization of the practice effect one like to go into. It involves verification, attainment, and mastering.

For example, using two simple steps which usually most 95% will miss to open up 80% of the body's channel. and when one is doing it needs to get the effect of open up that 80% of the body's channel.

It is not about mimic something others do but make what one practice alive.


Another example

Sergio brought up a great point in 3.23 about Ip Man's practice. what is the reason behind the two practices and how to do it properly? and how long one needs to take to truely knows what is going on? that type of things need to be iron out. and that takes lots of time and dedication.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eWIAYvf9Q





Didn't you learn these things from your sifu when you learned YK WC decades ago?


Learn and mastering is a very different thing. learning the set and knowing each bits and be able to use each bit is a different thing.

Using Yik Kam writing's description as a reference and target intending to capture and arive as describe depend on one's level of kung fu and kung fu is a journey often needed decades to attain.


A sifu can only lead one to the door and the rest is one's own journey. Practicing an art is a journey not watching a movie. even one has the 6 directional force vectors tool as a tikect to get into the cinema, one still has to practice...and practice.

[JPinAZ]

And I thought Wing Chun was supposed to be simple :confused:

I understand practice and we all need that (and some much more-so than others), but when someone says they have been "working on reconstructing the details of what is there in the 4 section Yik Kam slt for decades", that says to me that something isn't complete, or it is lost, and they are attempting to put it back together - that's reconstructing.


Using Yik Kam writing's description as a reference and target intending to capture and arive as describe depend on one's level of kung fu and kung fu is a journey often needed decades to attain.

I wouldn't think someone claiming to be a lineage holder of an art would still be having to piece together their art from some writings of it's inventor. To me, that sounds more like someone trying to learn kung fu from a book or, they don't really know the system as it's inventor intended so they are trying to make it up.

[Hendrik]

And I thought Wing Chun was supposed to be simple :confused:


Thought is not Kung fu, in fact, thought is misleading. Ask Theo what lesson he learn from something even simple.





I understand practice and we all need that (and some much more-so than others), but when someone says they have been "working on reconstructing the details of what is there in the 4 section Yik Kam slt for decades", that says to me that something isn't complete, or it is lost, and they are attempting to put it back together - that's reconstructing.


Same with any art which passed in a long time,
150 years after Yik Kam , lots of indepth things are distorted, lots of things are lost reference to the kuen kuit that is a fact. either one face it and reconstruct it to get back the essense or one keep on thinking one is right but ignore the distortion.

in every generation there are reconstruct or rework needed because no sifu is perfect and no sifu knows it all. So there always room needed for repair/reconstruct. and it happen in any art and any lineage if the art or lineage is an alive one. That is just a part of evolution.

There is no such thing as I do it as what my sifu and his sifu and his sifu's sifu did and that its. it is can one get the result as what the writing says disregards of what my sifu and his sifu and his sifu's sifu's did. if not, then go back to scratch board and research until the day you could get the result.


As even in Zen or Chan, every generation, those who is enlightement and having the mind seal working to reconstruct the buddha's teaching for the present time. look at what late Ven Hsu Yun does. that is the reality.







I wouldn't think someone claiming to be a lineage holder of an art would still be having to piece together their art from some writings of it's inventor.

To me, that sounds more like someone trying to learn kung fu from a book or, they don't really know the system as it's inventor intended so they are trying to make it up.


1, who care what is a lineage holder title means? I dont.
and title or label doesnt mean anything in the context of can one activate the engine of the art.

2, Your thinking is true for tribal logic which assume the chief of the tribe always = GOD and everything is linear. In the real world, that is not going to happen. after the second generation of the inventor. any art after the second generation evolution things will be distorted or lost when time passed. that is reality.

3, One cant learn kung fu from a book but a kuen kuit when understood precisely can lead one to advance kung fu beyond's one's kung fu. Refer to a Kuen kuit is not about dont know the system instead it is about making the system alive and refinement.




Welcome to the real world instead of simplified tribal type of world as in the Shaw's brother Kung fu movies, "this is not Kansas any more TOTO." as it says in Alice in the wonder land.

I would love to live in a world like what you think too.

[Hendrik]

That sucks you think 'your' WC can't even be passed along and gets so distorted in such a short period of time.

I dont have to think, I describe reality in human world.

Can your WCK past the 150 years test?

Check it out,
There are plenty of those who make big claim and after decades cant even comes up with a traceable ancestors tree which shows 100 years of history. but keep posting as upper hand posture as the oldest of WCK, isnt it strange? What is those type of WCK tell about their art? a make up but market it as oldest?






hahaha, now that's funny sh!t right there. Hendrik from the Lost Planet trying to welcome me to 'his world'. No thanks, I want no part of your fantasy Island mumbo jumbo.

Sure. we are from two different world. My world is the one open under the sun, and as for your world, think what you like. that is totally perfect with me.

Since you are not living in the same world as mine.
I expect you to no longer post in this thread because there is nothing you could contribute in my world.

[Hendrik]

the first one looks like 21.17 --22. the second one looks like 23.40 with the hand rest on the waist. all got to do with medirians....

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/PCfwINzHcGs/





A note for anyone who would like to get health, the 21.17 is good for lowering blood pressure, the 23.4 is very good for strengthen and fine tune over all of the body. practice for 100 steps a day and one could see result as short as after a week.

I really suggest the second one to include in senior older age WCner program for health benifit. This is real stuffs. this one open up the eight special medirians.

[JPinAZ]

Ok, let's be 'men' and see if you can handle it, because obviously you have been having a hard time doing that up untill now with the name calling, sensorship, trying to 'drive me a way' (funny that one).

Since you say you have to reconstruct YK WC from books/writing because you find distortions and lost references and information, are you denying any of the following reasons could be possible for the holes you are finding in your WC:

1. You might not have gotten the complete transmission when you learned from your sifu (did you baisi as you say we all should to get complete tansmission?)

2. Your sifu simply might not have gotten the complete transmission, or maybe just didn't pass it completely to you for any number of possible reasons.

3. Yik Kam might not have gotten the complete transmission from his teacher.

- 3a. If he didn't get the complete transmission, then he might have gone on to add in other things like Emei or crane to fill in the lost references or distortions he also saw, as you do.

4. Maybe the distortions you think you 'see' that you 'think' happened over time really are just the way things have always been since YK learned his WC from his teacher. I mean really, without a time machine or crystal ball, how do you know things have changed. You really don't.

If you are a 'man' as you like to throw the word around, and putting your ego aside, then you can't deny the possibility that any or a combination of these things could be valid reasons why you feel you are having to 'reconstruct' your WC from books and writing and also why you can't just go baisi to someone and get the transmission without the holes.
It seems to me that even me mentioning these possibilites is such a hardship for you that you want to drive me away, call me names, say that I'm being negative, etc. This is all very funny, because I am not saying that any are the actual case, because I really don't know. As you don't. This is contributing to the discussion DIRECTLY, and should never have to be deleted just because it shakes someone's fragile glass-house view of the world.

But perhaps I'm wrong. As a 'man', I can say that honestly - can you?

[Hendrik]

Ok, let's be 'men' and see if you can handle it

It is your issue and poor behavior which you have to face. Not my issue.

thanks but no thanks on your , as usual , time wasting, " possibly/May be " opinions. No time for those fantasy. sorry.




As in my previous post to you,
you have plenty for yourself to solve for your own WCK isnt it?
why dont you face it and then start a new thread to acknowledge the WCK world what is going on with you WCK? and If I am interested I will read it if not I will passed.

Please dont bring your dirty laundry here to cover up your issues. as the old tactic of keep pick on others with NONsense so that one doesnt notice one's own problem.


In case you forgot, the following is the recap.


That sucks you think 'your' WC can't even be passed along and gets so distorted in such a short period of time.

I dont have to think, I describe reality in human world.

Can your WCK past the 150 years test?

Check it out,

There are plenty of those who make big claim and after decades cant even comes up with a traceable ancestors tree which shows 100 years of history. but keep posting as upper hand posture as the oldest of WCK, isnt it strange? What is those type of WCK tell about their art? a make up but market it as oldest?

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1065939&postcount=16


Your post is not appreciate here as I have mention in two of my previous posts above. So, please leave.

Here on you post will be ignored.

[theo]

Thanks for the reply Hendrik!

So you are adjusting the angle of your body in relation to the opponent's force so that the opponent can't can't find a solid place to exert his force onto, as he would if you were doing peng jin? ( similar to yang lu chan holding a sparrow in his hand and not allowing it to take off because he adjust to the sparrow's leg pressure)

I had a friend who did wu tai chi whom as well as wing chun, in chi sao he was able to do this really well when you apply force against his body.

hello KFF,

When Hendrik demonstrated hua jing, I was pushing directly into his chest, he did not use his arms as I was already in contact with his chest. At that distance, angling or moving would already be inconvenient. What happened was that the force I was directing was dissolved by his structure adjusting to dissolve the force so that it would not find a reaction path.

Peng jing is different, that is a "Warding off" force that feels like pushing against a wall

[RB93SAAT]

We then discussed a little about what is hua jing and peng jing. For peng jing, I placed both hands on Hendrik's arm and he generated a ward-off type of force that when I pressed, was like pushing against a wall. For hua jing, Hendrik allowed me to find his center of gravity and then easily adjusted so that I could not find it again.

'a ward-off type of force' just like tai chi, there's no BFD with this simple excercise -"direction of movement; 运动规律" peng jing is also a form of exercise.


Since you say you have to reconstruct YK WC from books/writing because you find distortions and lost references and information, are you denying any of the following reasons could be possible for the holes you are finding in your WC:

1. You might not have gotten the complete transmission when you learned from your sifu (did you baisi as you say we all should to get complete tansmission?)

2. Your sifu simply might not have gotten the complete transmission, or maybe just didn't pass it completely to you for any number of possible reasons.

3. Yik Kam might not have gotten the complete transmission from his teacher.

- 3a. If he didn't get the complete transmission, then he might have gone on to add in other things like Emei or crane to fill in the lost references or distortions he also saw, as you do.

4. Maybe the distortions you think you 'see' that you 'think' happened over time really are just the way things have always been since YK learned his WC from his teacher. I mean really, without a time machine or crystal ball, how do you know things have changed. You really don't.

regarding to yik kam's slt 'exercise', you need to ask these questions before anyone could understand what's going on here.why did yik kam want to mix his wc with o-mei and crane? did he ever finish his wc training? since wong wah bo wing chun had already existed long before this unknown yik kam slt 'exercise', was yik kam slt the same art as wong wah bo wing chun? if no...then it compels people to the drawing board, ask where is the wing chun???... instead of listening hendrik's mumbo jumbo. all these facts are here to discuess for anyone truly want to know more about this yik kam. at least in history, yik kam himself never called his art wing chun, just called yik kam slt (little excercise). because he knew his art was not pure wing chun, mixed with o-mei and crane. just like bruce lee called his art jeet kune do.

[JPinAZ]

It is your issue and poor behavior which you have to face. Not my issue.

thanks but no thanks on your , as usual , time wasting, " possibly/May be " opinions. No time for those fantasy. sorry.

As in my previous post to you,
you have plenty for yourself to solve for your own WCK isnt it?
why dont you face it and then start a new thread to acknowledge the WCK world what is going on with you WCK? and If I am interested I will read it if not I will passed.

Has nothing to do with 'me' or 'my WC', my WCK is just fine. I haven't found any distortions or missing pieces or information as of yet that cause me to have to look at some old scrolls or sayings for answers like you have. If I have a question I can't answer for myself thru my training, I ask my sifu directly for guidance. Call me lucky I guess ;)


Please dont bring your dirty laundry here to cover up your issues. as the old tactic of keep pick on others with NONsense so that one doesnt notice one's own problem.

In case you forgot, the following is the recap.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1065939&postcount=16

Your post is not appreciate here as I have mention in two of my previous posts above. So, please leave.

Here on you post will be ignored.

I'm not the one with the problem, I'm here and open to discuss. If what I say scares you to the point that you can't reply, then that is on you. Last I checked, this was a forum for open discussion and debate, and a free country last time I checked, not one under communist rule. You don't like my views, just put me on ignore.

[JPinAZ]

regarding to yik kam's slt 'exercise', you need to ask these questions before anyone could understand what's going on here.why did yik kam want to mix his wc with o-mei and crane? did he ever finish his wc training?

This is exactly my question as well.


since wong wah bo wing chun had already existed long before this unknown yik kam slt 'exercise', was yik kam slt the same art as wong wah bo wing chun? if no...then it compels people to the drawing board, ask where is the wing chun???... instead of listening hendrik's mumbo jumbo.

I am assuming that since WWB's WCK was around before yik kam, then yik kam couldn't have made it up right? So my question would then be, who did Yik Kam learn his WC from, and how much did he really learn? Simple question I would think.


all these facts are here to discuess for anyone truly want to know more about this yik kam. at least in history, yik kam himself never called his art wing chun, just called yik kam slt (little excercise). because he knew his art was not pure wing chun, mixed with o-mei and crane. just like bruce lee called his art jeet kune do.

I did not know that he didn't call it WC, but I did read that he did also learn o-mei and crane at some point. Are you saying that he called his mixed art of wc SLT+Omei+crane simply 'yik kam slt'? That would make sense to me since it is one of the few WC systems that does not follow the more traditional SNT/CK/BJ progression as does the other red boat arts coming from Wong Wah Bo, which was earlier than yik kam.
(I think the only other lineage that doesn't follow this progression is Gulo right?)

[kung fu fighter]

hello KFF,

When Hendrik demonstrated hua jing, I was pushing directly into his chest, he did not use his arms as I was already in contact with his chest. At that distance, angling or moving would already be inconvenient. What happened was that the force I was directing was dissolved by his structure adjusting to dissolve the force so that it would not find a reaction path.

Thanks for the reply theo!

Was Hendrik rotating and moving his torso to dissolve your force when you pushed on his chest?

or was his torso completely still?

[Hendrik]

Thanks for the reply theo!

Was Hendrik rotating and moving his torso to dissolve your force when you pushed on his chest?

or was his torso completely still?


KFF,

Isnt


At that distance, angling or moving would already be inconvenient.

Already answer your question?


You see, there is something called Moving dissolve or Jou Hua and something called Suck in dissolve or See Hua. I was using the See Hua but from you post you seem keep thinking on something close to Jou Hua.


I demonstrate the Peng type or seal off the penetration type of Jing and See Hua or suck in dissolve or absolve type of Jing among with short range soft jing to penetrate my own hand and pillow cussions to distrub Theo's structure; for the purpose of demonstrating the six directional force vectors if handling properly could generate different type of force vectors and momentum....



BTW. you get it off mark with the Hua Jing because in your mind it is obvious you keep thinking you have to root and then rotate or angle..... to get that force slip away.....etc.

Nope, those are not what I am doing. Just to be honest with you, I dissolve or arrange my own root or six directional force vectors in a way so I will be like a bag of packaging pop corn that you push into but it doesnt react but suck you in.

So, peng type is like one push on to a wall one's force just being oppost, see hua is like one push into cotton wall where there is no reaction and go right in and one lost one's balance. jou hua is like one push into a oil rolling wall where one cant pin the wall but keep slide or roll away. These all are different stuffs.



This dissolve of root is to demonstrate what I said here before, "I dont root I levitate". and I am not kidding, I describe what it is.
root is not the default and it is a limitation. years ago when people start to evolve into the rooting, everyone learn how to root. but that is not the end of the story and infact, it is just a part of the story of the advance TCMA. in fact, rooting these days become a major cause of stuck for TCMA.
So, no, rooting is not the it.

Theo could tell you what he thinks about "Levitate" is the default but not root in doing SLT.




again, these are nothing big deal in TCMA. the question is does one's set allow one to have this type of training.



Some says

'a ward-off type of force' just like tai chi, there's no BFD with this simple excercise -"direction of movement; 运动规律" peng jing is also a form of exercise.

Because these people are naive. and dont know what they are talking about.


IMHO,
Set is about momentum and force vectors handling. one wants to play ball, one better know how to handle different types of force and momentum. that is the unwritten content in the Yik Kam SLT set which I am interested in reconstructing or re touch up.

Behind all those movements of the set, could one handle the different type of momentum and force. That is the name of the game of Advance TCMA practice. Thus, it is called beyond shape. Thus, it is called dynamic structure. Or dealing with Shi (momentum)


IMHO, WCK doesnt focus on this kiu sau or that kiu sau this animal shape .. because momentum is the deal and to handle momentum one needs the sensitivity and momentum handling. it is all about at any instant how to handle the momentum. Chi Sau is a momentum handling play in the large part instead of hand or kiu sau chasing game. and IMHO, if one cant handle different type of momentum then it becomes a hand chasing game or brute force or who is faster game.

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by RB93SAAT View Post
all these facts are here to discuess for anyone truly want to know more about this yik kam. at least in history, yik kam himself never called his art wing chun, just called yik kam slt (little excercise). because he knew his art was not pure wing chun, mixed with o-mei and crane. just like bruce lee called his art jeet kune do.



Unless you dont do WCK and dont know WCK.


Sergio brought up a great point in 3.23.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eWIAYvf9Q
It is the signature of White Crane and Emei 12 zhuang's snake slide worm moves method.



Check out 4.46, emei 12 zhuang's little training set and see how it was done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

it is White Crane because the technic reference to center line.
it is Emei 12 zhuang because the way how the finger, arm and body handle.

clear and sharp in WCK.




As for why it is not HKM type of handling? The key is in the finger's last two joints handling.

Take a look and compare for yourself on the above Russell's 4.46 - 5.60 fingers joints handling and the following Lin's clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEe9CH3Y7Bg

From the clip, Lin's hand and finger handling while doing his set is closer to those who did Iron palm such as in Ngo Cho Kuen. It cant be the type which applied to finger specialist such as the WCK's Biu Jee. The handling is not fine enough.

Thus, the source of HKM cant be same type, it is a different type of art, with the WCK Biu Jee or SLT type.



also

Compare 0.35 of the following with 6.03-6.10 of Russell above on the finger wrapping to make a fist. (those finger wrapping are emei's signature called five fingers tracing taiji. this is what Jim Roselando talk about when he met with Emei's gate keeper)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5cqRp-YtuM




As for Sergio's question on Gm Ip Man's practice on BJ.
Let me share with you this classical case I happen to ask GM CHC decades ago.
As I was told by my Late sifu GM CHC on the way why GM Ip Man did what he did.

in Late GM CHC's word, " before one has the kung fu or while one is at training at home, one has to get every joints move to a large degree and cultivate the kung fu. after one has it, and refine it, one doesnt have to show it but all the minute move is in there. the advance the kung fu the less one will see the move of other joints. while in application, all those bigger motion doenst shown, you will only see the finger tip contact with slight wrist move."

That is how he taught me on the training and how he practiced it too.

[theo]

KFF,

Isnt



Already answer your question?


You see, there is something called Moving dissolve or Jou Hua and something called Suck in dissolve or See Hua. I was using the See Hua but from you post you seem keep thinking on something close to Jou Hua.


I demonstrate the Peng type or seal off the penetration type of Jing and See Hua or suck in dissolve or absolve type of Jing among with short range soft jing to penetrate my own hand and pillow cussions to distrub Theo's structure; for the purpose of demonstrating the six directional force vectors if handling properly could generate different type of force vectors and momentum....



BTW. you get it off mark with the Hua Jing because in your mind it is obvious you keep thinking you have to root and then rotate or angle..... to get that force slip away.....etc.

Nope, those are not what I am doing. Just to be honest with you, I dissolve or arrange my own root or six directional force vectors in a way so I will be like a bag of packaging pop corn that you push into but it doesnt react but suck you in.

So, peng type is like one push on to a wall one's force just being oppost, see hua is like one push into cotton wall where there is no reaction and go right in and one lost one's balance. jou hua is like one push into a oil rolling wall where one cant pin the wall but keep slide or roll away. These all are different stuffs.



This dissolve of root is to demonstrate what I said here before, "I dont root I levitate". and I am not kidding, I describe what it is.
root is not the default and it is a limitation. years ago when people start to evolve into the rooting, everyone learn how to root. but that is not the end of the story and infact, it is just a part of the story of the advance TCMA. in fact, rooting these days become a major cause of stuck for TCMA.
So, no, rooting is not the it.

Theo could tell you what he thinks about "Levitate" is the default but not root in doing SLT.




again, these are nothing big deal in TCMA. the question is does one's set allow one to have this type of training.



Some says

Because these people are naive. and dont know what they are talking about.


IMHO,
Set is about momentum and force vectors handling. one wants to play ball, one better know how to handle different types of force and momentum. that is the unwritten content in the Yik Kam SLT set which I am interested in reconstructing or re touch up.

Behind all those movements of the set, could one handle the different type of momentum and force. That is the name of the game of Advance TCMA practice. Thus, it is called beyond shape. Thus, it is called dynamic structure. Or dealing with Shi (momentum)


IMHO, WCK doesnt focus on this kiu sau or that kiu sau this animal shape .. because momentum is the deal and to handle momentum one needs the sensitivity and momentum handling. it is all about at any instant how to handle the momentum. Chi Sau is a momentum handling play in the large part instead of hand or kiu sau chasing game. and IMHO, if one cant handle different type of momentum then it becomes a hand chasing game or brute force or who is faster game.

Great explanation of the different types of 'dissolving'. And yup, packaing popcorn is a good way to describe it. As was said, the six directional force is the key. Using the 6D forces, if handled properly, force and momentum handling and generation is possible.

For those wondering about the short soft jing. Hendrik didn't move very much but the effect was loud and clear.

Rooting as commonly done today, the end effect is similar to being bolted to the ground or wearing cement boots. Rooting this way when doing the SLT will cause the SLT to be a dead post kind of training, great for muscle conditioning but it will not be alive and thus handicapped. Furthermore, this type of rooting already results in a fragile structure since it only accounts for one dimension. When doing the SLT with "levitation", then the set comes alive and three dimensional.

[theo]

Unless you dont do WCK and dont know WCK.


Sergio brought up a great point in 3.23.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eWIAYvf9Q
It is the signature of White Crane and Emei 12 zhuang's snake slide worm moves method.



Check out 4.46, emei 12 zhuang's little training set and see how it was done.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

it is White Crane because the technic reference to center line.
it is Emei 12 zhuang because the way how the finger, arm and body handle.

clear and sharp in WCK.




As for why it is not HKM type of handling? The key is in the finger's last two joints handling.

Take a look and compare for yourself on the above Russell's 4.46 - 5.60 fingers joints handling and the following Lin's clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEe9CH3Y7Bg

From the clip, Lin's hand and finger handling while doing his set is closer to those who did Iron palm such as in Ngo Cho Kuen. It cant be the type which applied to finger specialist such as the WCK's Biu Jee. The handling is not fine enough.

Thus, the source of HKM cant be same type, it is a different type of art, with the WCK Biu Jee or SLT type.



also

Compare 0.35 of the following with 6.03-6.10 of Russell above on the finger wrapping to make a fist. (those finger wrapping are emei's signature called five fingers tracing taiji. this is what Jim Roselando talk about when he met with Emei's gate keeper)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5cqRp-YtuM




As for Sergio's question on Gm Ip Man's practice on BJ.
Let me share with you this classical case I happen to ask GM CHC decades ago.
As I was told by my Late sifu GM CHC on the way why GM Ip Man did what he did.

in Late GM CHC's word, " before one has the kung fu or while one is at training at home, one has to get every joints move to a large degree and cultivate the kung fu. after one has it, and refine it, one doesnt have to show it but all the minute move is in there. the advance the kung fu the less one will see the move of other joints. while in application, all those bigger motion doenst shown, you will only see the finger tip contact with slight wrist move."

That is how he taught me on the training and how he practiced it too.

As a sensing and adapting type of art, not to mention a close body art...one must be able to sense and adapt with any part of the body. One must also be able to use any part of the body as needed...the Snake activates every inch of the body from the finger tips to the toes, which when fused with the Crane shape makes WCK WCK.

"Thus I have heard" it is also important in the power generation (i.e. momentum generation :D)

[Hendrik]

Rooting as commonly done today, the end effect is similar to being bolted to the ground or wearing cement boots. Rooting this way when doing the SLT will cause the SLT to be a dead post kind of training, great for muscle conditioning but it will not be alive and thus handicapped. Furthermore, this type of rooting already results in a fragile structure since it only accounts for one dimension. When doing the SLT with "levitation", then the set comes alive and three dimensional.



and dont do this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDxYs6V71vQ

This is creative and good for Show in Las Vegas for entertainment.

[kung fu fighter]

You see, there is something called Moving dissolve or Jou Hua and something called Suck in dissolve or See Hua. I was using the See Hua but from you post you seem keep thinking on something close to Jou Hua.

"I dont root I levitate".


What's the details/body mechanics involved in what you call See Hua to distrupt your opponent's structure?

And what do you mean by Levitate in regards to WCK?



I dissolve or arrange my own root or six directional force vectors in a way so I will be like a bag of packaging pop corn that you push into but it doesnt react but suck you in.

How do you do this?

[theo]

and dont do this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDxYs6V71vQ

This is creative and good for Show in Las Vegas for entertainment.

hahaha, poor eggs

[RB93SAAT]

Sergio brought up a great point in 3.23.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eWIAYvf9Q
It is the signature of White Crane and Emei 12 zhuang's snake slide worm moves method.

wing chun is wing chun, o-mei is o-mei, ngo cho kun is ngo cho kun. you're convinced to buy into sergio's bs. be clear about what you'd like to see happen. sergio also said many stupid things about ip man used to study chi sim weng chun. inside chu chong man lineage, they said ip man and one of his students used to visit chu chong man in dai duk lan, that's how this rumor was created. also sergio's new toy-'black flag' (black flag bandit gang member pun jiao in 1907) wing chun = (ip man wc + ngo cho kun)' was the most secret wing chun among the so-called five flag wing chun societies (a hoax). with all these made up stories behind sergio, do you really think sergio's vids will help you in yik kam's case? you should think again, hendrik, your theory is impractical. yik kam seem to have a bad connection with o-mei and crane. just like sergio has a bad connection with ngo cho kun. yik kam's 6 six directional force and lin's ngo cho kun's sam chien are something else, they are not wck.

wong wah bo wck came before yik kam's slt 'lttle drilling'. hendrik, you can't face this fact and you skipped a few steps to bring in sergio in order to back up your story. lol, the smack of your report is hazardous.

not one ip man lineage ever said there was 5 flag wing chun in shaolin temple
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt1Gl6pZOFo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyoS3YBqRjY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwm3zhjBcGc&feature=related

[theo]

What's the details/body mechanics involved in what you call See Hua to distrupt your opponent's structure?

And what do you mean by Levitate in regards to WCK?




How do you do this?


The details and body mechanics are just rearranging the incoming force vectors, 6 directional force stuff.

Levitation is basically these three conditions at the same time:

1. the state where the body's every joints/muscles/tendons are loosened up,
2. breathing is natural and effortless,
3. and the mind has entered into silence

[RB93SAAT]

I did not know that he didn't call it WC, but I did read that he did also learn o-mei and crane at some point. Are you saying that he called his mixed art of wc SLT+Omei+crane simply 'yik kam slt'? That would make sense to me since it is one of the few WC systems that does not follow the more traditional SNT/CK/BJ progression as does the other red boat arts coming from Wong Wah Bo, which was earlier than yik kam.
(I think the only other lineage that doesn't follow this progression is Gulo right?)

wong wah bo wing chun came long before yik kam slt. certainly yik kam wouldn't dare to call his mixed art as wing chun kune in front of wong wah bo and leung yee tai. it's up to yik kam to stand up for his own creation -' yik kam slt.'

both ching san and pin san are san sau wing chun, unlike snt/ck/bj. leung jan created two versions of gulo wck. (ching san and pin san), wong wah saam was a small guy and he couldn't use his gulo wck effectively against those big guys, therefore leung jan created another version of gulo pin san wck for wong wah saam.

[Hendrik]

you're convinced to buy into sergio's bs.

Sergio put his name with his work. right or wrong, agree or not agree, he is truly doing his job.

and how about you? hidden in your nick name and always posting your negative opinions on others.

Who are you? do you do WCK? what is your lineage? what is your agenda on posting all these negative attack posts? until you present yourself, dont critic Sergio.

[RB93SAAT]

hendrik, again you're talking nonsense! you like to hide behind sergio. your questions may be fueling your insecurities rather than contributing to a conversation. i don't care about if your name is hendrik or pikachu...who care? if you are not ready to give me your SSN or where do you live? and where do you work? don't ever ask me anymore personal questions again. next time if you want my # make sure you got a pretty sister...lol. ok, ron is my name, originally i came from foshan ching wu school. and i do wck and clf and that's all you have to know.

[LoneTiger108]

As a sensing and adapting type of art, not to mention a close body art...one must be able to sense and adapt with any part of the body. One must also be able to use any part of the body as needed...the Snake activates every inch of the body from the finger tips to the toes, which when fused with the Crane shape makes WCK WCK.

"Thus I have heard" it is also important in the power generation (i.e. momentum generation :D)

A good thread here Theo. Its nice to see some feedback from people who have visited or trained with someone else on the board. Hendrik can sometimes come across a bit wayward, so you may be helpful to those that are interested in his ideas.

I'm interested to hear from you why you think the omei snake is required within WCK? Is it something you believe Yik Kam 'added' from other learning or is it supposed to be in all families curriculums?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Out of curiosity, did you guys spar or fight at all?

[Frost]

Out of curiosity, did you guys spar or fight at all?

thanks for the laugh :)

[Hendrik]

Out of curiosity, did you guys spar or fight at all?

nope, no need to spar for what is obvious and can communicate easily.

I just instruct him on what my idea and let him experience what is the different between before and after the instruction.

It is my believe that for one to experience the advantage onself from the technology and make the judgement is better then anything.

[Hendrik]

hendrik, again you're talking nonsense!

you like to hide behind sergio.

your questions may be fueling your insecurities rather than contributing to a conversation.

ron is my name, originally i came from foshan ching wu school. and i do wck and clf and that's all you have to know.




As a fact, Sergio or me are not shy to present who are we where is the insecurities comes from?

as for you, Which Ron? Which Foshan ChingWu? with lineage of WCK? who is your sifu? that remain unsaid isnt it?

[RB93SAAT]

As a fact, Sergio or me are not shy to present who are we where is the insecurities comes from?

as for you, Which Ron? Which Foshan ChingWu? with lineage of WCK? who is your sifu? that remain unsaid isnt it?

which hendrik? which pikachu? are they the same person? no! yes! who cares? which o-mei? which crane? which question? over 10,000 posts...still singing the same old songs...o-mie, crane, o-mie, crane, who is your sifu? who is your sifu's sifu? which sifu? which lineage? do your sifu know hendrik? hendrik who? which hendrik wants to know...? that hendrik! hendrik who? that hendrik spend 24/7 on kfo...why?... why didn't he spend more time on wingchunkune.com forum instead of coming here...i guess hendrik wants more attentions from the public...over there, only one guy wants to talk to him and nobody else...oh, poor hendrik!!!

hey ron, would you trust this hendrik?
hell, no!
why not?
don't ask me, please ask Paperocksissorscrapper, he has been waiting for hendrik's reply since Jun 25, 2010, still nothing from hendrik.
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1274


hendrik, again you're talking nonsense! you like to hide behind sergio. your questions may be fueling your insecurities rather than contributing to a conversation. i don't care about if your name is hendrik or pikachu...who care? if you are not ready to give me your SSN or where do you live? and where do you work? don't ever ask me anymore personal questions again. next time if you want my # make sure you got a pretty sister...lol. ok, ron is my name, originally i came from foshan ching wu school. and i do wck and clf and that's all you have to know.

[Hendrik]

Since you are always posting the same type of negative posts, and unable to be rational, here on, your post will be ignored.

Please do not post in this thread and open your own thread.





which hendrik? which pikachu? are they the same person? no! yes! who cares? which o-mei? which crane? which question? over 10,000 posts...still singing the same old songs...o-mie, crane, o-mie, crane, who is your sifu? who is your sifu's sifu? which sifu? which lineage? do your sifu know hendrik? hendrik who? which hendrik wants to know...? that hendrik! hendrik who? that hendrik spend 24/7 on kfo...why?... why didn't he spend more time on wingchunkune.com forum instead of coming here...i guess hendrik wants more attentions from the public...over there, only one guy wants to talk to him and nobody else...oh, poor hendrik!!!.....

[kung fu fighter]

The details and body mechanics are just rearranging the incoming force vectors, 6 directional force stuff.

How do you rearrange the incoming force vectors without some king of a root?

and where do you rearrange the incoming force vectors to? is it away from your centerline/center of gravity?


Levitation is basically these three conditions at the same time:

1. the state where the body's every joints/muscles/tendons are loosened up,
2. breathing is natural and effortless,
3. and the mind has entered into silence

Is the body completely de-linked when doing this?

How do you maintain the body's every joints/muscles/tendons loosened up when receiving incoming force, there has to be some type of muscle tonus since human being use muscle and tendons to move our sketelital frame, but not necessarily tension to recieve force

[Hendrik]

The details and body mechanics are just rearranging the incoming force vectors, 6 directional force stuff.





KFF,

Your mind cant picture what you have not seen.

and to be real honest, one needs to have a refine body mechanics to handle these stuffs. not to mention, one needs to enter into the silence, loose, and nature constantly to cultivate them.

Thus, it is not what the general usual think. It could be done via transformation. and not via mind controlling the body without transformation of the body.

Transformation is the kung fu one gain from properly practice the internal set. That is another paradigm contradict to the general thinking of mimic the set.

Again, why do I mention the emei snake again and again? because it is the key to the transformation. without a proper way of doing it, the transformation cannot take place and thus one will not get the benifit.


Up to you to believe anything you like but the above is what it is in my view.
There is no magic but the transformation needs to take place to activate the engine.

Why I always ask people to go Baisi? because one needs someone who knows to get one into the transformation flow.

Theo, get to experience what is silence in a basic way within 15 mins follow the coaching instruction. how long do you think one needs to get into silence without a coaching?

[LoneTiger108]

Again, why do I mention the emei snake again and again? because it is the key to the transformation. without a proper way of doing it, the transformation cannot take place and thus one will not get the benifit.

... Theo, get to experience what is silence in a basic way within 15 mins follow the coaching instruction. how long do you think one needs to get into silence without a coaching?

Again I repeat my question:


I'm interested to hear from you why you think the omei snake is required within WCK? Is it something you believe Yik Kam 'added' from other learning or is it supposed to be in all families curriculums?

Although looking through some posts here gives me a pretty good idea I still would like to hear from Theo or Hendrik...

[Hendrik]

Again I repeat my question:



Although looking through some posts here gives me a pretty good idea I still would like to hear from Theo or Hendrik...


I let Theo reply you on his own view and his experience since now he knows what it is.




From my view, Snake of emei always in all the WCK as shown in Sergio's clip on BJ practice.

Emei snake enable the penetration of handling to finger tips and the sensitivity/adaptiveness of WCK. With it, there is another level of play, without it will shutdown this level of play and default into a White crane of fujian or even further default into Southern TCMA.

It is obvious up to everyone to decide which level of play they intended to have.


In a history and signature perspective, Emei snake is unavoidable when studying the past of WCK. When the Emei signature such as five finger tracing taiji shows in Fung Chun's practice, Fung is the olderst WCK practitioner at our time, it already is a connection fact which cannot be deny.


For past decade, I maintain what the WCK ancestors says Crane and Snake. today, after decade of resistance or even against, some those who oppose it has admit on Crane's connection from Fujian. It doesnt matter if it takes another decade for others to accept the snake from emei but eventually it has to go that way. Let wait and see. The world of WCK will transform because Truth cannot be covered up.

[taai gihk yahn]

Out of curiosity, did you guys spar or fight at all?


nope, no need to spar for what is obvious and can communicate easily.

I just instruct him on what my idea and let him experience what is the different between before and after the instruction.

It is my believe that for one to experience the advantage onself from the technology and make the judgement is better then anything.

lol - you contradict yourself in the same post; you talk about "experiencing for oneself" as the best marker by which one can make a judgment; yet for all of your talk of "experience" versus "speculation", explain how you can say or know anything about how the principles you espouse would function under the sort of conditions that exist during a relatively random exchange such sparing? no one doubts that it is possible to instruct someone to "feel" the six-direction principles you point out (and guess what Hendrick, this "six-directions" concept is in no way unique to what you teach, it's not even unique to Chinese martial arts, lol), but what about applying them in context of martial function?
so do tell Hendrick, how can one validly verify the usage of "six-principles" under combat conditions if one does not engage in that way? how can you look someone in the eye, teach them a martial practice and not "touch hands" in order that they may directly experience the application of the principles in a combat context?

[Wayfaring]

nope, no need to spar for what is obvious and can communicate easily.

I just instruct him on what my idea and let him experience what is the different between before and after the instruction.

It is my believe that for one to experience the advantage onself from the technology and make the judgement is better then anything.

So if when you get together for an exchange, there is no fighting, how is what your doing different than this?



and dont do this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDxYs6V71vQ

This is creative and good for Show in Las Vegas for entertainment.


You don't have music?

[Hendrik]

So if when you get together for an exchange, there is no fighting, how is what your doing different than this?



Who said it is an exchange meeting?

Does you mind capable of finding out and understand what is going on before posting ? based on the post, you are not capable right?


Your post will be ignored by me here on. So post in some other thread or make your own.

[Wayfaring]

Who said it is an exchange meeting?

Does you mind capable of finding out and understand what is going on before posting ? based on the post, you are not capable right?


Your post will be ignored by me here on. So post in some other thread or make your own.

Awesome!!!!

I ask a simple question about when 2 WCK people get together if there is no fighting how is it different than the dance link Hendrik posted.

And......

Hendrik gets all huffy, starts attacking my intellect, and puts me on ignore!!

More entertainment here than watching all sorts of daytime soaps, I tell you. :D

http://images.memegenerator.net/Spongebob-Face/ImageMacro/2317592/MediumThumbnail.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

You crazy wing chun guys !!
LMAO !!

[Hendrik]

I am always open for proper question and love to discuss.

However, I decide to not put up with nonsense some trouble makers are posting.
Thus, nonsense posts will be here on on my ignore list.

This is not MMA fighting forum, but WCK forum, and WCK has lots of elements could be discuss. so for those who likes to do fighting, please go some where else. this is not your mmA forum thread.

[horserider]

Confused over the attacks on Mr Hendrik. Even if his posts are confusing to you he is honest. No need to agree with him but no reason to attack him.

I agree with him. No need to fight when WC students get together. We can demonstrate our differences with out fighting each other. Many things are easy to demonstrate but hard to explain on a forum.

Also point out that the Hua jing Mr. Hendrick talks of is not rare or mysterious. It is found in many places. Have even met boxers that do a version. Is just something that one needs to feel and be taught. Since most cannot calm mind most will not understand.

[Wayfaring]

I am always open for proper question and love to discuss.

However, I decide to not put up with nonsense some trouble makers are posting.
Thus, nonsense posts will be here on on my ignore list.

This is not MMA fighting forum, but WCK forum, and WCK has lots of elements could be discuss. so for those who likes to do fighting, please go some where else. this is not your mmA forum thread.

And WCK is a fighting art primarily - a "martial" art, not a dancing art. So while there are other aspects such as health and philosophy to discuss in conjunction with WCK, if you are offended by discussing the martial aspects of a martial art, then not only would I say maybe it's you that needs to go somewhere else, but also that maybe you need to re-examine your involvement in it. Perhaps dancing would suit your needs more.

[Wayfaring]

Without fighting, what's the difference between a martial art and this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk2vR8w2sjc

[kung fu fighter]

It could be done via transformation. and not via mind controlling the body without transformation of the body.

How does one train SLT to transform the body in order to develop the proper engine?

[Hendrik]

Confused over the attacks on Mr Hendrik. Even if his posts are confusing to you he is honest. No need to agree with him but no reason to attack him.

I agree with him. No need to fight when WC students get together. We can demonstrate our differences with out fighting each other. Many things are easy to demonstrate but hard to explain on a forum.

Also point out that the Hua jing Mr. Hendrick talks of is not rare or mysterious. It is found in many places. Have even met boxers that do a version. Is just something that one needs to feel and be taught. Since most cannot calm mind most will not understand.


Thank you for your understanding.

Fighting is a part of WCK however it is one's choice to talk about it or not.
Not talk about fighting doesnt means one cant fight, and talk or keep sparing also doesnt mean one is a good fighter.

There is no room for one to force others to make fighting a must to reveal to public since in Chinese Martial art tradition, one needs to place Wu De in an important place then fighting; and this is WCK forum.


As for the Hua Jing and Fa Jing stuffs, if one cant handle the basic momentum then IMHO forget about fighting. What to fight? use what to fight?

And also, what does it prove to fight and sparing without basic of WCK technology? when sharing the basic and fundamental of WCK technology is the focus? keeping sparing or fighting is not going to get one those important fundamental and not neccessary could become a good figher either, so what to prove? sure keep fighting or sparring might earn one some fighting tricks but that is not in the context of this thread.

If one could think clearly one wont post those nonsense trouble finding posts. but then, there are those who purposely attack me since decade ago due to their political agenda or hate. and thus, I choose to ignore these people because their behavior is obvious.

[Eric_H]

This is not MMA fighting forum, but WCK forum, and WCK has lots of elements could be discuss. so for those who likes to do fighting, please go some where else. this is not your mmA forum thread.


Actually WCK is all about fighting. If your WCK is not about fighting, then it's not WCK: it's just dancing. You don't want to talk about it because you can't do it. This makes you the definition of a "theoretical nonfighter" (copyright T. Neihoff).

Good luck with your omei dance routines, perhaps Beyonce will use them one day.

[JPinAZ]

Also funny, when several of us ask direct questions about yik kam lineage, which hendrik talks as like expert on, he has no answers. He just cries and whines, and says everyone is making trouble and picking on him. Doesn't sound like anyone who practices a fighting art to me!

Hendrik, I'm still waiting for your answers regarding who is Yik Kam's teacher, why you feel your art has to be reconstructed because of all the distortions and missing info, or how they got there in the first place. All things you initially brought up but now refuse to talk about.

Won't talk application (fighting/sparring), won't talk history or lineage, what the heck are you talking about?? :confused:

[FongSung]

Cho family lineage has been posted a few times by Hendrik already. Below is the Lineage as I have be told in Singapore and Poon Yee, China:

Yim Wing Chun
Leung Bak Sao
Cheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam)
Cho Dak Sing (CDS)

Hendrik would include Cho Shun, CDS's father, but he did not learn from his father but directly from Cheng Dan Kam. But because his father also learnt from Cheng Dan Kam then as tradition dictates a son and father can not be at the same level. Therefore when including the father in a "full" family tree CDS would be a level lower so it was explained to me.

As you say you live and train in Fatsan etc why don't you ask your Sifu's if they heard about Cho Dak Sing 曹德胜. Then you may have a lot of answers and maybe a bit of respect for the Yik Kam (Cho Family) Lineage.

How you talk to Hendrik about his research and idea's is between you both.

[Hendrik]

Cho family lineage has been posted a few times by Hendrik already. Below is the Lineage as I have be told in Singapore and Poon Yee, China:

Yim Wing Chun
Leung Bak Sao
Cheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam)
Cho Dak Sing (CDS)

Hendrik would include Cho Shun, CDS's father, but he did not learn from his father but directly from Cheng Dan Kam. But because his father also learnt from Cheng Dan Kam then as tradition dictates a son and father can not be at the same level. Therefore when including the father in a "full" family tree CDS would be a level lower so it was explained to me.

As you say you live and train in Fatsan etc why don't you ask your Sifu's if they heard about Cho Dak Sing 曹德胜. Then you may have a lot of answers and maybe a bit of respect for the Yik Kam (Cho Family) Lineage.

How you talk to Hendrik about his research and idea's is between you both.



Fong,

Thanks for your post. If you read my previous post, there are those I declare ignore, so there is nothing between me and these people. Thus, there is no Between "You both" but there is no interest on nonsense.

Yik Kam and Cho lineage are clean and solid. Including the 108 SLT and kuen kuit well preserve and solid. There is no need to answer to these people because we have a solid background. Facts speak louder.

As for respect, dont ask for respect from those who has evil heart. and those who has evil heart always will pay for their own karma anyway. So, forgive them and their behavior is between them and God. We are free.


With Moduk, one doesnt behave the way how these people behave. so that also told the story of these people. And facing a No Moduk people, the best is to ignore them and report to law enforcement if they violate law. These public forum is great because anything and everything they posts will be cite if they are under investigation.


Everyone watch Ip Man the movie, too bad what these people practices are exactly like what those evil Japanese war criminal does. That is how they behave.

Hope that you rest this case now.

[Hendrik]

Actually WCK is all about fighting. If your WCK is not about fighting, then it's not WCK: it's just dancing. You don't want to talk about it because you can't do it. This makes you the definition of a "theoretical nonfighter" (copyright T. Neihoff).

Good luck with your omei dance routines, perhaps Beyonce will use them one day.




" I will praise the movie for portraying and capturing some of the spirit of the traditional Chinese martial arts. Ip Man extols in the prison scene, “Chinese martial arts is based on Confucianism – (you should treat others as you yourself would like to be treated) – that is why there is Wu De – martial virtue. Perfection of technique alone as in martial skill or power will just lead you to bully others.”

In my opinion, this is why today’s martial arts world suffers from infighting and petty rivalry. One is not complete… unless one can be complete in the art, in the mind, spirit and body,... " -- Sifu Robert Chu


Robert's view is exactly what I believe.


BTW. Omei 12 zhuang is not a dance, it is an advance martial art which the chinese gorvenment is preserving its documents in Beijing Museum, Beijing, China. Do you have an art which is up to that level and quality? if not you dont even know what the heck you are talking about.

[Hendrik]

How does one train SLT to transform the body in order to develop the proper engine?

KFF,

Good question, I leave this to Theo.

With the way how some one negative high jacking this thread. Theo might have to delete this thread because there in no point to share with all of these noise.

[Wayfaring]

Fighting is a part of WCK however it is one's choice to talk about it or not.
Not talk about fighting doesnt means one cant fight, and talk or keep sparing also doesnt mean one is a good fighter.

There is no room for one to force others to make fighting a must to reveal to public since in Chinese Martial art tradition, one needs to place Wu De in an important place then fighting; and this is WCK forum.


So WCK has fighting as a part, however your recommendation is not to talk about it, not to spar to prepare for it?

And something about Chinese Martial art tradition prevents being open about fighting?

Wow - I learn new things every day. Please explain more to me about this Chinese Martial art tradition that prevents you from talking about fighting and sparring to prepare for fighting. And to place everything else in the martial art above fighting.

Is there also a Chinese art tradition that prevents painters from talking about painting?

[Wayfaring]

As for the Hua Jing and Fa Jing stuffs, if one cant handle the basic momentum then IMHO forget about fighting. What to fight? use what to fight?
On the other hand, if Hua Jing and Fa Jing "stuffs" are focused on developing in an environment that is removed from fighting, and low to mediocre level fighters use blunter or more basic tools to develop their fighting skills beyond your ability, then of what value are they?

Like Cris Angel Mindfreak? You can do great party tricks with magic?



And also, what does it prove to fight and sparing without basic of WCK technology? when sharing the basic and fundamental of WCK technology is the focus? keeping sparing or fighting is not going to get one those important fundamental and not neccessary could become a good figher either, so what to prove? sure keep fighting or sparring might earn one some fighting tricks but that is not in the context of this thread.

If in a martial art, becoming a good fighter is not a goal, then one should replace the martial art with something that more directly applies to your goal. Become a good monk, become a dancer, become a philanthropist, become a philosopher, become a healer.


If one could think clearly one wont post those nonsense trouble finding posts. but then, there are those who purposely attack me since decade ago due to their political agenda or hate. and thus, I choose to ignore these people because their behavior is obvious.
If one finds that focusing more directly upon one's goal is a nonsense trouble finding post, then the conclusion must be that one's goal is to be a wanderer, never arriving anywhere. And that other goals are ethereal and lack grounding.

For those whose goal in a martial art is at least in part to develop martial skill, then fighting is simply a necessary element. Like a stopwatch is to one developing skill in running. It is simply a good test. Like climbing a mountain, running a 10K, disciplining one's self to healthier eating, or other worthwhile goals. A measurement only, and one that is casual at that. Not one that causes extreme emotional reaction. Such a reaction points to a dreamer.

[horserider]

I think Mr. Wayfaring you do not see Mr Hendrik point.

You may study wing chun but fight like a boxer . You may be a great fighter but you are not a wing chun fighter. Why spend time with wing chun if you do not use wing chun to fight?


To be a wing chun person that fights with wing chun you must first learn how to use wing chun the way it was inteneded. Learn the proper structure and it's uses learn the jing's Learn how to take the basics in SLT and then apply them . However you can not ever do this if you do not first learn the snake and crane sides of wing chun.

At least that is what I understand his point to be. leanr the wing chun then learn to use it. Use the joints ,shoulder width stance, calm mind etc etc. Then take these things and learn to apply them. The next step.

[Hendrik]

To be a wing chun person that fights with wing chun you must first learn how to use wing chun the way it was inteneded. Learn the proper structure and it's uses learn the jing's Learn how to take the basics in SLT and then apply them . However you can not ever do this if you do not first learn the snake and crane sides of wing chun.

At least that is what I understand his point to be. leanr the wing chun then learn to use it. Use the joints ,shoulder width stance, calm mind etc etc. Then take these things and learn to apply them. The next step.



That's right, the is no other way to be a Wing Chun person that fights with Wing Chun. One must know the basic elements, and only then one could take advantage of WCk uniqueness. No snake and crane will have no boomerang strike and short distance fast accelerate jing.


I show the short jin concept strike to Theo, body keep loose, make a fist from the open hand, when the hand become fist, that is the time of contact, and the force vector pentrate my other palm which I am contacting, go through one soft pillow, penetrate his holding arm, going through another pillow, and enter his body to knock his center of gravity off. it shoots out like releasing an arrow. not tensing muscle no strecthing....etc. the momentum is generate by a combination of a few types of momentum in my body. it is like parallel a few flying wheel together to generate the momentum so that the distance is much shorter compare with a linear momentum.. and accelerate much faster then linear momentum generation..etc and there are lots of other benifit.

speaking of Peng Jing and Hua Jing,
Peng needs root to sustain incoming force to produce a mirror force vectors, thus touching it feels like a wall.
Hua needs to do the oposite which is disolving one's own root so the incoming force doesnt have a reaction point to land on.

This type of jing is also nothing big deal, art like Yee Chuan of Wang Xiang Chia also has it. However, without knowing the six directional force vectors and the training of snake slide to activate the joints of the body, it will not get there. the body is not transform to be able to do it.


These are just basic TCMA power/momentum handling generation.
it is all about handling momentum in a 3 D space. nothing big deal. But if one cant get this from the set one does, then it is hopeless. Not to mention if one have not even heard and seen these stuffs. and making degrading claim on these stuffs like blind man claiming there is no sun.

Advance TCMA? the whole body is like a bag of mercury, the intention moves, the qi goes with it, and the body bounce. Those are real stuffs which the advance TCMA dont bother to argue about it.




Every part of the set is not waste action, every kuen kuit means something. body, mind, qi all are available for action. IMHO, only if one get up to this level one is consider enter the door of TCMA.

Certainly, as in the IP Man II movie there are people behave like the Twister. Well, that is ok with me, however, Twister is not my style be it in martial or behave as a human.

Thus, if one want to talk WCK then one needs to follow WCK's ancestors creation. It is nonsense trying to call what ever one did WCK where one is clueless on what WCK is. that in Chinese is called hanging the goat's head but selling the meat of dog.

One cant make claim like Ip Man but doing all what Twister did. Hope those who love WCK knows there are advance stuffs which we have almost totally lost. help yourself to get back these stuffs for your own lineage and dont let it died out, you need the snake otherwise the soul of WCK art will not be there. Why wasting your set practice?

This is a WCK thread, thus, off mark post are ignored to not waste energy.

[kung fu fighter]

Peng needs root to sustain incoming force to produce a mirror force vectors, thus touching it feels like a wall.
Hua needs to do the oposite which is disolving one's own root so the incoming force doesnt have a reaction point to land on.


How does one deal with the opponent's force vector if one disolve his own root which is used to ground the opponent's incoming force?

[t_niehoff]

I think Mr. Wayfaring you do not see Mr Hendrik point.


Hendrik can make it difficult to see his point. ;)



You may study wing chun but fight like a boxer . You may be a great fighter but you are not a wing chun fighter. Why spend time with wing chun if you do not use wing chun to fight?


That is an important question.



To be a wing chun person that fights with wing chun you must first learn how to use wing chun the way it was inteneded.


I prefer to look at it slightly differently -- it's not so much doing it "as intended" (which I think is a self-limiting POV) but rather learning the approach to fighting that our ancestors' developed. There is a distinction.



Learn the proper structure and it's uses learn the jing's Learn how to take the basics in SLT and then apply them . However you can not ever do this if you do not first learn the snake and crane sides of wing chun.

At least that is what I understand his point to be. leanr the wing chun then learn to use it. Use the joints ,shoulder width stance, calm mind etc etc. Then take these things and learn to apply them. The next step.

Yes, that is what I understand Hendrik to be saying as well.

My issue with that is that you can't really learn the structure, gings, etc. except through application -- by actually doing whatever it is under realistic conditions. The forms and unrealistic practices (drills/exercises) are superficial. You can't learn how to throw a ball except by and through actually throwing the ball. Mimicking the action, the ging, etc. won't really teach you how to DO it.

Moreover, those unrealistic practices more often than not lead us in the wrong direction.

BTW, good to see you posting.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The law of specificity is NOT just for strength training but is applicable to all methods of "body work", perhaps even more so Martial arts.
Even MORE so highly specialized MA.

[Hendrik]

The law of specificity is NOT just for strength training but is applicable to all methods of "body work", perhaps even more so Martial arts.
Even MORE so highly specialized MA.




The TCMA has the power/Momentum generation/handling fuse with the uniqueness of application strategy, implement via the conditioning of body - mind -breathing.

Using the six directional forces, physical elements such as joints and weight, mental state entering, and the 12 energy/qi medirians models holisitcally cover both the generation, application, and body-mind conditioning.

those are just the basic of internal TCMA.

The issue is not TCMA, the issue is incomplete TCMA; and then taking what is incomplete as TCMA and make all kind of conclusion.

The issue is not the set, the issue is not practicing the set according to the requirements needed.


The issue is some having not yet understant the TCMA, but using one's partial view to judge what TCMA is ;which is actually equavalent to flying blind.

and then when one's limitation was pointed out, keep argue without even knowing what the TCMA party describe for winning the arguement sake.

[Wayfaring]

I think Mr. Wayfaring you do not see Mr Hendrik point.

You may study wing chun but fight like a boxer . You may be a great fighter but you are not a wing chun fighter. Why spend time with wing chun if you do not use wing chun to fight?

Quite the opposite. Mr. Hendrik does not see my point, and by choice. He refuses to respond to my point and instead labels it "troublemaking post". This is what I call "preferred blindness". You don't want to address a major problem with your training so instead you ignore it when it comes up.

Don't infer from my posts that I fight like a boxer. I just train with some. And in doing that it points out areas where "boomerang strikes", "short distance accelerated jing", and other such cool sounding terms are not as important as other WCK concepts. I use what I have learned in WCK to fight. Or more precisely, to practice fighting.

For you and Hendrik the question is similar. If you don't fight or practice fighting, why spend time with wing chun? To show SLT as a beautiful dance? For meditation? That's OK, but not real.



To be a wing chun person that fights with wing chun you must first learn how to use wing chun the way it was inteneded. Learn the proper structure and it's uses learn the jing's Learn how to take the basics in SLT and then apply them . However you can not ever do this if you do not first learn the snake and crane sides of wing chun.

How would you know? You are not a person that fights with wing chun, so how can you teach someone else to?


At least that is what I understand his point to be. leanr the wing chun then learn to use it. Use the joints ,shoulder width stance, calm mind etc etc. Then take these things and learn to apply them. The next step.
If one gets to the point where they are the lineage holder for a branch of WCK and yet they never take the next step, what then?

Where is this next step? In your mind? Certainly not in your practice.

[Wayfaring]

The issue is not TCMA, the issue is incomplete TCMA; and then taking what is incomplete as TCMA and make all kind of conclusion.

No, IMO the issue is someone saying they have a complete TCMA but that it is not intended to be used as a MA, and never using it as a MA. Thus the end destination being only having the TC part because the MA part has atrophied like the muscles of a broken arm when you take a cast off.


The issue is not the set, the issue is not practicing the set according to the contents needed.

I agree with this statement. Practicing the set according to contents needed includes the originally intended context - MA.


The issue is some having not yet understant the TCMA using the one's partial view to judge what TCMA is which is actually equavalent to flying blind. and when pointed out, keep argue without even knowing what the TCMA party describe for winning the arguement sake.
My point is it is impossible to understand TCMA while removing the MA part of it.

[Wayfaring]

My issue with that is that you can't really learn the structure, gings, etc. except through application -- by actually doing whatever it is under realistic conditions. The forms and unrealistic practices (drills/exercises) are superficial. You can't learn how to throw a ball except by and through actually throwing the ball. Mimicking the action, the ging, etc. won't really teach you how to DO it.

Moreover, those unrealistic practices more often than not lead us in the wrong direction.


This is pretty much where I was going with the discussion, maybe with a slight distinction. I do feel the forms have an intended meditative and holistic side to them as well - the drills / exercises lead towards application, and consistent training in an alive environment fighting context is what leads in the right direction.

[Hendrik]

On the other hand, if Hua Jing and Fa Jing "stuffs" are focused on developing in an environment that is removed from fighting, and low to mediocre level fighters use blunter or more basic tools to develop their fighting skills beyond your ability, then of what value are they?

Like Cris Angel Mindfreak? You can do great party tricks with magic?



I accept what and how everyone think or their mind set, for it is not my issue on what one attract via one's thinking.

The following is I express my view because I exist ; not interested to convert anyone or agree by anyone but my view describe from my personal experience. Truth or not that is up to you.




is the above qouted statement on jing a truth?

1, look at the statement, it starts with "if" this big if means the person who make the statement doesnt know what he is talking about. Have never seen the things and have never know or experience what it is.


2, What is Hua Jing and Fa Jing. Those are as basic as " catching " and "throwing" a ball if it is analogy in playing base ball or basket ball. The basic one needs to know in order to play ball. in the TCMA, this is the basic of TCMA.


3, " Hua Jing and Fa Jing "stuffs" focused on developing in an environment that is removed from fighting," ?

Only those who has no idea with what is Hua and Fa in TCMA and the training of it will make this type of statement.

TCMA using six directional force vectors and different momentum types to cover the handling of the three dimensional space, the goal is to be able to handle any type of momentum within the 3 dimensional space. it is targeted toward UNCONDITIONAL development covered momentum within the three dimensional space, instead of development in an environment that is removed from fighting.



4, " low to mediocre level fighters use blunter or more basic tools to develop their fighting skills beyond your ability, then of what value are they?"

One makes this statement without knowing what it is and irrational thinking.


5, "Like Cris Angel Mindfreak? You can do great party tricks with magic?"


Start with If and concluded with magic. this type of thinking is no different then the Boxer Rebel's superiority and blind thinking pattern which claiming they can stop the western fire arm with their body while never know what is going on.



There are lots in TCMA one needs to know and certainly there are lots of partial TCMA in the world which needed to be admited as GM WXZ the founder of Yee Chuan put it.

[Wayfaring]

1, look at the statement, it starts with "if" this big if means the person who make the statement doesnt know what he is talking about. Have never seen the things and have never know or experience what it is.

The "if" was introduced by your position that fighting or training in fighting is not necessary. Thus it is you that doesn't know what he's talking about.


2, What is Hua Jing and Fa Jing. Those are as basic as " catching " and "throwing" a ball if it is analogy in playing base ball or basket ball. The basic one needs to know in order to play ball. in the TCMA, this is the basic of TCMA.

Power generation is basic in ANY MA.


3, " Hua Jing and Fa Jing "stuffs" focused on developing in an environment that is removed from fighting," ?

Only those who has no idea with what is Hua and Fa in TCMA and the training of it will make this type of statement.

From your statements that environment describes your training. No fighting. No sparring. It's not necessary.


4, " low to mediocre level fighters use blunter or more basic tools to develop their fighting skills beyond your ability, then of what value are they?"

One makes this statement without knowing what it is and irrational thinking.

OK. So it's "irrational thinking" to have the idea that a professional boxer would probably defeat your Hua and Fa TCMA level of development in TCMA with 6 directional forces? The fact that you can't put that together speaks for itself.


5, "Like Cris Angel Mindfreak? You can do great party tricks with magic?"


Start with If and concluded with party tricks. this type of thinking is no different then the Boxer Rebel's superiority and blind thinking pattern which claiming they can stop the western fire arm with their body while never know what is going on.

No, actually trying to talk about training Hua, Fa and six directional force vectors without using it consistently in training fighting is much more like the blind thinking pattern of thinking you can stop a firearm with your body. Just like it. You have an idea of power, but never test it consistently. When you arrive in a situation facing someone that does test consistently it is exactly like that.

[Hendrik]

The "if" was introduced by your position that fighting or training in fighting is not necessary. Thus it is you that doesn't know what he's talking about.

Power generation is basic in ANY MA.

From your statements that environment describes your training. No fighting. No sparring. It's not necessary



To win an arguement with all cost and twisting everything. This is a great example.

and your response show you dont know how to read too.


http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1066472&postcount=63


Your posts shows you dont know the traditional Chinese WCK and clueless on the Power/momentum I am describing. that is a fact.












No, actually trying to talk about training Hua, Fa and six directional force vectors without using it consistently in training fighting;

is much more like the blind thinking pattern of thinking you can stop a firearm with your body. Just like it.

You have an idea of power, but never test it consistently. When you arrive in a situation facing someone that does test consistently it is exactly like that



The above shows rediculus mind set and speculation; without knowing what it is and keep trying to play expect.


What idea of power but never test it consistently?

Anyone who knows the six directional force vectors knows it is subjected and adapted and fine tune to each applications activity at every instant.

anyone who knows Hua, and Fa jing knows it is subjected and adapted and fine tune to each applications activity at every instant.


The bottom line is you have never seen it, dont know what is it, and thus, make yourself a favor dont trying to play God and carry the big stick called "fighting" trying to rule the world. you might be a great fighter in other art, but in traditional chinese WCK, you dont know.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The TCMA has the power/Momentum generation/handling fuse with the uniqueness of application strategy, implement via the conditioning of body - mind -breathing.

Using the six directional forces, physical elements such as joints and weight, mental state entering, and the 12 energy/qi medirians models holisitcally cover both the generation, application, and body-mind conditioning.

those are just the basic of internal TCMA.

The issue is not TCMA, the issue is incomplete TCMA; and then taking what is incomplete as TCMA and make all kind of conclusion.

The issue is not the set, the issue is not practicing the set according to the requirements needed.


The issue is some having not yet understant the TCMA, but using one's partial view to judge what TCMA is ;which is actually equavalent to flying blind.

and then when one's limitation was pointed out, keep argue without even knowing what the TCMA party describe for winning the arguement sake.

You seem to have missed the point of my post.

[Hendrik]

You seem to have missed the point of my post.


I could be or I choose to not follow your points. and do you get my point?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I could be or I choose to not follow your points. and do you get my point?

Well, we all choose our own path, that's for sure.
I hope that eventually your path will involve the FIGHTING system of WC.
;)

[Hendrik]

Well, we all choose our own path, that's for sure.
I hope that eventually your path will involve the FIGHTING system of WC.
;)



you like to play GOD dont you?

[sanjuro_ronin]

you like to play GOD dont you?

I AM that I AM.
;)

[Frost]

I AM that I AM.
;)

god its like Dales back to haunt us!

[m1k3]

Or Popeye.
I yam what yam.

[Wayfaring]

To win an arguement with all cost and twisting everything. This is a great example.

and your response show you dont know how to read too.


http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1066472&postcount=63


Your posts shows you dont know the traditional Chinese WCK and clueless on the Power/momentum I am describing. that is a fact.


So the link above you included is not my post. And you are starting to talk nonsense and not even address any of the issues in the discussion. You are just repeating yourself about how your opinion is I don't know anything. And one of your tactics is to call someone names and then say things like "that is a fact".

I have not trained in YOUR family WCK. I don't know YOUR family WCK. I have trained in ANOTHER family WCK. My WCK family uses different terms for power generation. I do not know whether they are the same or different - I've never seen yours, and certainly never seen it in a fighting context. Mostly because you don't use it in a fighting context.

But if you want to start name-calling, keeping repeating the "you don't know anything" line is like a little child, whining when it doesn't get it's way. Hendrik is acting like a little child. That is a fact.

There - you like that type of discussion?



What idea of power but never test it consistently?

Anyone who knows the six directional force vectors knows it is subjected and adapted and fine tune to each applications activity at every instant.

anyone who knows Hua, and Fa jing knows it is subjected and adapted and fine tune to each applications activity at every instant.

Actually if you want to get into this, there is absolutely no way that using vectors in six directions can fine tune at every instant. 6 directions - north, south, east, west, up, down, cannot describe the fine tune adjustments on the bridge or at contact between two humans. Vectors change every instant and at different velocities. 6 doesn't begin to cover the possibilities.

The idea of power testing consistently involves fighting. Which you don't do or don't think is necessary. Right? Hua and Fa jing or whatever your other magic words are don't do ANYTHING. PEOPLE have to do something with the concepts or fundamentals of power generation. And they do it testing in a live fighting environment. Or not.



The bottom line is you have never seen it, dont know what is it, and thus, make yourself a favor dont trying to play God and carry the big stick called "fighting" trying to rule the world. you might be a great fighter in other art, but in traditional chinese WCK, you dont know.

Nobody is trying to use a big stick to rule the world. This discussion started because theo posted up a nice little flowery praise post of Hendrik where you got together, did SLT for each other, discussed power, and he "pushed on your arms". He said you have impressive power. Then somebody else asked if you guys sparred at all. You said no, that wasn't the purpose. So we started discussing "impressive power" in the context of fighting, and wondering if two WCK people get together, what exactly is the purpose. But you got all upset and emotional and started saying you were going to ignore posts and then started calling people names.

Now you and theo getting together isn't horrible or anything, even if you were not sparring. But your extreme reaction to that discussion makes people wonder why you're reacting that way. Do you train fighting consistently? Or are you just trying to piece together portions of your kuen kuit to reconstruct your family WCK art doing form movements and other stuff only? If so, then maybe you might want to consider training all this "impressive power" for fighting. Because there are far too many people running around this world thinking they are David Carradine's Kwai Chang Cain from Kung Fu in a deluded fashion with all their talk of power and vectors and original lineage and everything. That's just dumb.

Preserve your lineage by training like a fighter. Then maybe you won't be the last one in your family line to train WCK and the lineage might last beyond you. Otherwise, maybe not much hope.

[JPinAZ]

Great post Dave! Not sure Hendrik's going to be able to see your point through his blinders and tears, but your right on point!

[theo]

Again I repeat my question:



Although looking through some posts here gives me a pretty good idea I still would like to hear from Theo or Hendrik...


As was mentioned, there is the body of the art, and then the application. Both need the other to be complete. WIthout the body, one cannot do the application, to do the application, one needs the body.

As stated by many lineages, the WCK path is internal. Leung Jan, Yip Man, and YKS all have made references to this. As such, to develop in this path, one needs the right conditioning and body transformation to support the momentum handling and power generation.

[kung fu fighter]

As was mentioned, there is the body of the art, and then the application. Both need the other to be complete. WIthout the body, one cannot do the application, to do the application, one needs the body.

As stated by many lineages, the WCK path is internal. Leung Jan, Yip Man, and YKS all have made references to this. As such, to develop in this path, one needs the right conditioning and body transformation to support the momentum handling and power generation.

What exactly is the wck body in your opinion?

[theo]

By body, I was not referring specifically to the physical body but the Body (Tee) of the art, which is covering the structure, power generation, etc...which is separate but not mutually exclusive to the application (Yoong).

so what is the body? all of the stuff on snake slide, body-mind conditioning , jing, qi, shen, YJKYM...

[YungChun]

How do you maintain the body's every joints/muscles/tendons loosened up when receiving incoming force, there has to be some type of muscle tonus since human being use muscle and tendons like a pully to move our sketelital frame, but not necessarily tension to recieve force

How does one train SLT to transform the body in order to develop the proper engine?

Forward Spring Energy...

[LoneTiger108]

As was mentioned, there is the body of the art, and then the application. Both need the other to be complete. WIthout the body, one cannot do the application, to do the application, one needs the body.

As stated by many lineages, the WCK path is internal. Leung Jan, Yip Man, and YKS all have made references to this. As such, to develop in this path, one needs the right conditioning and body transformation to support the momentum handling and power generation.

Okay I do agree with your points here, but I'm simply asking why you, and Hendrik, feel that Emei snake can teach you this but the forms and practises Wing Chun families have can not? This is only my impression from Hendriks posts. Without the Emei heigung you can't have the properly developed internal body?!

I have always been a strong advocate of the Snake & Crane and their connection to Wing Chun, as this is how I was trained. And fwiw I practise very similar heigung exercises Hendriks student does in his SLT discussion series on Youtube. What I know for sure is that these teachings I received did not originate from YKS, as I was under the impression that his heigung came from 'outside' the Wing Chun family?

Wing Chun heigung (Qigong) is what it is and it's very evident in our SLT and all other practises fme. So, why do we need Emei methods?

[Hendrik]

Theo can answer his way.

The following is my answer to you.




but I'm simply asking why you, and Hendrik, feel that Emei snake can teach you this but the forms and practises Wing Chun families have can not?


That is not what I mean.

What I mean is the art of WCK is using Emei snake technology as a based or "operating system" to create SLT, CK, BJ....etc.

and without identifying the snake technology to the details in WCK, that part of the art will be missing and not practice accordingly.



Without the Emei heigung you can't have the properly developed internal body?!


Emei 12 zhuang is not a heigung but an internal cultivation technology in today's word.

Since WCK is using Emei platform, without follow the way of the technology, one will not get the optimum result.




Wing Chun heigung (Qigong) is what it is and it's very evident in our SLT and all other practises fme. So, why do we need Emei methods?

Can one's practice lead one to enter into silence, activate Qi flow, penetrate force vectors to finger tips, activate every joints of the body, generating the famous WCK short jing....... if one can then one doesnt need to revisit the Emei technology ; if not one needs to re install the Emei "operating system" into one's set practice.

It is similar with a computer, if the operating system is not operating, one needs to re installed it. otherwise, the computer will not do what it means to do.

[Hendrik]

Forward Spring Energy...

Yes, one way to do it.

[LoneTiger108]

What I mean is the art of WCK is using Emei snake technology as a based or "operating system" to create SLT, CK, BJ....etc.

and without identifying the snake technology to the details in WCK, that part of the art will be missing and not practice accordingly.

Thanks for the reply Hendrik.


Emei 12 zhuang is not a heigung but an internal cultivation technology in today's word.

Since WCK is using Emei platform, without follow the way of the technology, one will not get the optimum result.

Sorry for my 'layman' terms but heigung is heigung! Internal cultivation technology just seems a more modern phrase to describe heigung to me. The Emei may help you get to the destination, but what I'm saying is that nobody would have this 12 palm technology unless they learn it from you? And some may have reached the same destination from their Wing Chun training, so what makes the Emei worth the time and attention? Especially when it's only half the Snake/Crane method?


Can one's practice lead one to enter into silence, activate Qi flow, penetrate force vectors to finger tips, activate every joints of the body, generating the famous WCK short jing....... if one can then one doesnt need to revisit the Emei technology ; if not one needs to re install the Emei "operating system" into one's set practice.

It is similar with a computer, if the operating system is not operating, one needs to re installed it. otherwise, the computer will not do what it means to do.

I totally understand the hard-drive concept as this is also how I was taught. We used to joke about things like that all the time! It's just that I was installed with the concept of 'seed' cultivation, which is the Wing Chun heigung signature fme and evidenced in everyones practise that I have ever seen (although maybe not in the same, or creative like cycles)

In answer to your questions, yes, I have felt, trained and experimented with everything you mention in small and large ways! And I was able to do this through my basic understanding of the seed and Lee Shings heigung methods trained alongside the forms, interactive, equipment, weaponry and literature based ideas I have mentioned before.

Snake methods, for me, were also heavily linked to the pole; crane to the knives, and the whole interactive process requires knowledge of these two animals natural behaviours too.

Something I am interested in immensely so thanks again for your replies...

[Hendrik]

Sorry for my 'layman' terms but heigung is heigung! Internal cultivation technology just seems a more modern phrase to describe heigung to me.


if one look deep into it, Heigung is a rather modern term and narrow after 1900.



the term Neigung is the ancient term, Neigung is internal cultivation technology.

Heigung is just a part of Neigung. Neigung Ultimately it is not Heigung but Shen gung.



Emei technology is one of those which cover physical, breathing, energy, to Shen and then to enlightement. It is a process which is very well define.


Also, what is Heigung? heigung today means different things to different people, from demonstration tricks to very indepth.


Thus, IMHO, it is not up to one to decide but one has to look at the content and describe it as it is. and the scope of 12 zhuang is much much boarder and details general public thinking.


The Emei 12 zhuang technology I am bringing up is not the daily general Heigung.





The Emei may help you get to the destination, but what I'm saying is that nobody would have this 12 palm technology unless they learn it from you?

it is 12 Zhuang meaning 12 ways of internal cultivation. it is not 12 palm.

Nope, any one can learn the 12 Zhuang technology from the 12 Zhuang gate keeper and any one could activate their WCK sets.


The reason I am posting for decades is not about learning it from me but I tell the world ---- if you have the technology in your lineage, great! preserve that. If you want to make sure you are in the proper path. Check out the 12 zhuang as reference.

I am just a messenger to reveal this things exist and needs to be look into for those who is serious about SLT.








And some may have reached the same destination from their Wing Chun training, so what makes the Emei worth the time and attention? Especially when it's only half the Snake/Crane method?

First one needs to know what is the snake technology, and then,
the question lay on one has to face oneself honestly, could one's cultivation in one's WCK set attain the quality or Kung fu as I post above? and how far or close it is?

From there one makes one own decision. as one likes it.

For me, art is not a business deal, if one is serious in an art and want to be good in an art it takes whatever it takes to research to learn to practice. But then everyone is different so it is up to everyone's own decision.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi theo!

Can you explain how hendrik adjusted his structure to rearrange and dissolve your incoming force so that it would not find a reaction path?

and where do you rearrange the incoming force vectors to? is it away from your centerline/center of gravity?

How do you maintain the body's every joints/muscles/tendons loosened up when receiving incoming force, there has to be some type of muscle tonus since human being use muscle and tendons like a pully to move our sketelital frame, but not necessarily tension to recieve force

How does one train SLT to transform the body in order to develop the proper engine?

[theo]

Hi theo!

Can you explain how hendrik adjusted his structure to rearrange and dissolve your incoming force so that it would not find a reaction path?

and where do you rearrange the incoming force vectors to? is it away from your centerline/center of gravity?

How do you maintain the body's every joints/muscles/tendons loosened up when receiving incoming force, there has to be some type of muscle tonus since human being use muscle and tendons like a pully to move our sketelital frame, but not necessarily tension to recieve force

How does one train SLT to transform the body in order to develop the proper engine?

hello KFF,

That's about as much detail that would be useful really. Putting it into words where they are dissolved to, away from this or that wouldn't be very helpful because it would end up causing more speculation as to how much here or there...how it's done can't really be seen after all, the body is adjusting as a whole.

How does one train SLT to transform the body in order to develop the proper engine? Refer to the conditions for levitation above...along with the right "operating system" this will bring the body into awareness and activate the joints, meridians, etc...so it's a body and mind conditioning process one has to go through to cultivate the engine. Without it, then one might only be doing what they think is natural or effortless. And knowing and thinking are entirely different...

[FongSung]

Originally Posted by kung fu fighter

How do you maintain the body's every joints/muscles/tendons loosened up when receiving incoming force, there has to be some type of muscle tonus since human being use muscle and tendons like a pully to move our sketelital frame, but not necessarily tension to recieve force

How does one train SLT to transform the body in order to develop the proper engine?

Fongsung “Let go and relax”

To explain something simple, which is hard to see and not always easy to obtain, is the difficultly.

Relaxed can be taken as being in a posture without actively tensing yourself to being totally limp. For me it means you have to be able to keep a posture whilst relaxing all the muscle / muscles not being used. I try to explain what “I” mean below. I am not an expert so be kind. :o

When standing your body takes care of the muscles, tendons & joints automatically you feel relaxed can move your arms, head waist etc but your body is using it's muscles but working on auto. You would not be tensing your legs or pushing up to keep from falling down intentionally, right?
Now what if some one was to stand behind you and to place there hands on your shoulders and pull directly down, would you freeze tense and lock up, tense and push up with your legs? Or relax and let the body act automatically to resist. Of course there is a loading and muscle is being used but not intentionally tensing which would lock you up. You can still turn have relaxed arms and waist etc. and even move your legs. If this person was suddenly to let go you wouldn't jump 2 feet in the air because you were tensing and pushing up with your legs would you? The body would just automatically stop resisting… and be more relaxed. So for me it's about being in different degree’s of relaxation keeping the mind clear, alert and focused.

Relax, let go, no mind, don’t worry be happy…..

[taai gihk yahn]

Fongsung “Let go and relax”

To explain something simple, which is hard to see and not always easy to obtain, is the difficultly.

Relaxed can be taken as being in a posture without actively tensing yourself to being totally limp. For me it means you have to be able to keep a posture whilst relaxing all the muscle / muscles not being used. I try to explain what “I” mean below. I am not an expert so be kind. :o

When standing your body takes care of the muscles, tendons & joints automatically you feel relaxed can move your arms, head waist etc but your body is using it's muscles but working on auto. You would not be tensing your legs or pushing up to keep from falling down intentionally, right?
Now what if some one was to stand behind you and to place there hands on your shoulders and pull directly down, would you freeze tense and lock up, tense and push up with your legs? Or relax and let the body act automatically to resist. Of course there is a loading and muscle is being used but not intentionally tensing which would lock you up. You can still turn have relaxed arms and waist etc. and even move your legs. If this person was suddenly to let go you wouldn't jump 2 feet in the air because you were tensing and pushing up with your legs would you? The body would just automatically stop resisting… and be more relaxed. So for me it's about being in different degree’s of relaxation keeping the mind clear, alert and focused.

Relax, let go, no mind, don’t worry be happy…..
well said, sir - a more than reasonable description of an experiential state of being that can be difficult to articulate
I know that "fang sung" has a specific translation, but I like to think of it as a state of "resiliency" or "reciprocity" in regards to how the system manages itself in relation to an external force; actually, we have the opportunity to practice it all the time: whenever you breathe, the respiratory diaphragm descends - this in turn creates a ground reaction force that travels up through the body; how we "respond" (versus "react") to that GRF can be informed by this (and of course, this can be done either when lying, sitting, standing or walking / running); and despite my noodling him, I don't disagree with Hendrick's "six-direction", at least as he articulates them, as this does occur in a multi-axial, multi-planar context (essentially according to tensegrity principles);

as far as "be happy" - try standing practice while frowning and while smiling (slightly) - see what it does to your spine, lol...

[LoneTiger108]

if one look deep into it, Heigung is a rather modern term and narrow after 1900.

the term Neigung is the ancient term, Neigung is internal cultivation technology.

Heigung is just a part of Neigung. Neigung Ultimately it is not Heigung but Shen gung.

Okay. Heres where I must learn mandarin terms. My teacher is Cantonese, so bear with me...

Neigung = Loigung
Shengung = ?
Chigung = Heigung


Also, what is Heigung? heigung today means different things to different people, from demonstration tricks to very indepth.

You answered this already yourself.


Heigung is just a part of Neigung.

If Heigung is a 'modern term' then so be it. From my understanding, and your concentration on Loigung (as Heigung is 'just a part' of it) I think I/we refer to the breathing and postural exercises as Heigung because this type of training must be both hard and soft, inside and outside.


The Emei 12 zhuang technology I am bringing up is not the daily general Heigung.

As far as I know, there is no 'general' heigung. Every family has it's method, as we do in the Wing Chun family. Just seems that some tend to favour certain ways. My Uncle, Austin Goh, as an example favours 5 Element Heigung training, whereas my Sifu was softer in his approach using more feminine methods. And in all honesty, there are also those who don't believe in it all too!


I am just a messenger to reveal this things exist and needs to be look into for those who is serious about SLT.

First one needs to know what is the snake technology, and then, the question lay on one has to face oneself honestly, could one's cultivation in one's WCK set attain the quality or Kung fu as I post above? and how far or close it is?

From there one makes one own decision. as one likes it.

This is where I find it hard to understand you as your tone seems condescending to those that have not experienced this 'snake technology' you talk of. Almost as if you're saying that all those guys that have been into Wing Chun for the past 30-50 years are not serious about their SLT!


For me, art is not a business deal, if one is serious in an art and want to be good in an art it takes whatever it takes to research to learn to practice.

Okay. If this is the case then you would be more open to meeting with families that you have no experience of, no? To see and feel other peoples experiences or versions of the snake/crane technologies? To actual go out and meet people rater than expect them to visit you?

I too am always criticized by my brothers for my hermit status! I have two kids, a wife and a pretty demanding job as my excuse, so what's yours?

[Hendrik]

Relax is a great basic key. everyone must learn relax.
However, it will not get to the transformation needed.

The chinese Internal cultivation is based on Relax but go much deeper the just Relax. Without the six directional force practice, one's body will not be able to transform to having awareness at every location. Without the Emei technology the characteristics of the body will not be the same.

There are dull relax and aware relax. There are relax which is just relax and there are relax which could turn the whole body as an elastic bouncing ball.

physical relax is the based of mental silence and Qi flow. However, physical relax doesnt guarentee mental silence, qi flow, and generation or handling of different Jing or potential or momentum.

In my opinion, from my observation, most people stop at relax without entering into the gate of the internal cultivation.

Without the six directional force and snake technology or equivalent, live which is multidimentional flow and dynamic balance are not present in a practicing a set. that is certain. Thus, relax cant get to what KFF is asking but needs much more technology.

[Hendrik]

Spencer,

At different cultivation one sees different things. Thank you for sharing your view.
What I am describing is something intrinsicly embeded in the WCK SLT set. it is not a different add on heigong or doing something different or harden the body or for demonstration or to make it " I have it too". As for different lineages, those with the level of art could analyze and see through the art, thus, it is obvious and cannot be pretended.


There is no ambiguity but clarity once one has the six directional force and emei snake key to see what is going on and after that the way how they practice their set will be heaven and earth different eventhough the others will still think they are doing same old thing. It is about a Xing Fa or Mind method one makes the set alive with the mind method. it is a mind seal which one spend life to find out for those who is serious.

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer,

At different cultivation one sees different things. Thank you for sharing your view.
What I am describing is something intrinsicly embeded in the WCK SLT set.

In the Yik Kam SLT set or everybodies? Please share where this is explored within YK SLT. I was under the impression that the 12 Zhuangs are a separate entity entirely?

FWIW My SLT has 6 sets/sections, each designed to implement various ideas and more specifically various breathing technologies (in your words!) and this IS where my understanding of Heigung was first concentrated. It was only after I grasped that that my Sifu took us further into the 'family heigung' stuffs. Even then, it was like a re-confirmation of what had already been felt. It didn't sit outside or separate from anything, in fact it complimented all I knew at the time.

It was like my Sifu said 'here's the door but go through it alone man!'

This precise Heigung practise helped me to further explore my Wing Chun, but it was the SLT itself that unlocked the door. As it should be fme.

[Hendrik]

In the Yik Kam SLT set or everybodies? Please share where this is explored within YK SLT. I was under the impression that the 12 Zhuangs are a separate entity entirely?

FWIW My SLT has 6 sets/sections, each designed to implement various ideas and more specifically various breathing technologies (in your words!) and this IS where my understanding of Heigung was first concentrated. It was only after I grasped that that my Sifu took us further into the 'family heigung' stuffs. Even then, it was like a re-confirmation of what had already been felt. It didn't sit outdide being separate from anything, in fact it complimented all I knew at the time.

It was like my Sifu said 'here's the door but go through it alone man!'

This precise Heigung practise helped me to further explore my Wing Chun, but it was the SLT itself that unlocked the door. As it should be fme.


The technology intrinsicly embeded in every move and every instant of the SLT practice of the set until one's every daily move is transform. It is transparent but there, there is not any kind of Family heigung stuffs. It is WCK the core and guts of WCK, only if one recognized it or not.

However , if one doesnt know the mind method the set is no different then any usual set. or default into physical exercise or drill or muscle programing...etc.

As 'here's the door but go through it alone man!' is not totally accurate. Those who go throught it is not alone because lots of people has go through that door and on the journey. also, is there really a door? does what one knows really transform one's world? or just some old chinese saying as in any movies where there is no substance or it is empty in reality.


BTW. breathing technology is not my word and I have never gone there. what you think is not what I am presenting. To be honest, those stuffs you mention is like a black and white flat screen movie what I present is like a 3 D hologram movie. one needs to see that 3 D hologram movie to recognize the world is a 3 D hologram and more, one knows that black and white practice is not adequate to represent the real world. Relax as mention above even sound great is still a black and white flat screen.

As I told Theo, six directional force... is a ticket to the movie. Ask Theo when he walks in that 3 D hologram cinema will his set be the same again or he has cross the line of no return. if he has cross the line of no return then he has gone through the door and started the journey.

When I mean not general Heigong, I mean it is something which will lead to the nature vibration or nature or God. It is about let go let God instead of something to manupulated body via mind. I mean a transformation/transcent of body and mind where one no longer as before.

That is the beauty of SLT , that is spring time.

[Wayfaring]

the term Neigung is the ancient term, Neigung is internal cultivation technology.

Heigung is just a part of Neigung. Neigung Ultimately it is not Heigung but Shen gung.

Emei technology is one of those which cover physical, breathing, energy, to Shen and then to enlightement. It is a process which is very well define.


So you have a set or sets from Emei that are Neigung development focused. And they help develop the adaptable power that you see coming to WCK from the snake side.

Actually, those are probably pretty cool.

I still practice a series of TCMA Neigung development sets that are from lohan. As well as some specific energy development exercises from my family's WCK.

So I can appreciate it.

[Hendrik]

So you have a set or sets from Emei that are Neigung development focused. And they help develop the adaptable power that you see coming to WCK from the snake side.

Actually, those are probably pretty cool.

I still practice a series of TCMA Neigung development sets that are from lohan. As well as some specific energy development exercises from my family's WCK.

So I can appreciate it.


Nope, no need extra set or add on.

WCK SLT set if not modified too far away from the red boat era, is an Emei 12 zhuang snake intrinsic embeded set. Developing Neigung in a transparent way if one knows how to turn on the engine.


Anyone who knows the technology knows the emei snake signature such as in the Biu Jee set 3.30.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eWIAYvf9Q

[FongSung]

=Hendrik;1067065]Relax is a great basic key. everyone must learn relax.
However, it will not get to the transformation needed.

The chinese Internal cultivation is based on Relax but go much deeper the just Relax. Without the six directional force practice, one's body will not be able to transform to having awareness at every location.

Yes agreed. My example was basic and free of terminology.
Again I try to put it simple my understanding.

Once you can apply my example to the six directions individually, your on the way?
When you can apply it to more than one direction at once, you are getting there?
When you can combine a awareness of all six directions at once ie floating the body your getting close, right?
Then you need practise (lots of) to handle force which can be from anywhere because a combination of the six vectors can create any other vector.

Of course you have to be alert, in a state of readiness able to adjust not just with the mind idle and day dreaming nor should you be concentrating on trying to do this (trying to hard). It should be natural, second nature.

[Hendrik]

Once you can apply my example to the six directions you are on the way.

When you can apply it to more than one direction you are getting there?

When you can combine a awareness of all six directions at once ie floating the body your getting close, right?

Then you need practise (lots of) to handle force which can be from anywhere because a combination of the six vectors can create any other vector.

Of course you have to be alert, in a state of readiness able to adjust not just with the mind idle and day dreaming nor should you be concentrating on trying to do this (trying to hard). It should be natural, second nature.


Are you describing what you are doing or you are asking questions?


Theo,
the above sound like what I am presenting but is it what I am presenting? Care to share your view?






today is my sentimental day

This is for those who knows the six directional force and the snake to open up the channels

like a condor one levitate within the strong wind.
like a loaded arrow waiting to discharge
like a horse it firmly rush out
like a human one has a boundless heart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUFl_MeTz1Q&feature=related


This is my view for those who knows chinese

千秋霸业,百战成功
边声四起唱大风
一马奔腾,射雕引弓
天地都在我心中
狂沙路万里，关山月朦胧
寂寞高手一时俱无踪
真情谁与共，生死可相从
大事临头向前冲，恩义重

[kung fu fighter]

[I] When standing your body takes care of the muscles, tendons & joints automatically you feel relaxed can move your arms, head waist etc but your body is using it's muscles but working on auto. You would not be tensing your legs or pushing up to keep from falling down intentionally, right?
Now what if some one was to stand behind you and to place there hands on your shoulders and pull directly down, would you freeze tense and lock up, tense and push up with your legs? Or relax and let the body act automatically to resist. Of course there is a loading and muscle is being used but not intentionally tensing which would lock you up. You can still turn have relaxed arms and waist etc. and even move your legs. If this person was suddenly to let go you wouldn't jump 2 feet in the air because you were tensing and pushing up with your legs would you? The body would just automatically stop resisting… and be more relaxed. So for me it's about being in different degree’s of relaxation keeping the mind clear, alert and focused.

Relax, let go, no mind, don’t worry be happy…..

Hi,

I don't think this is what Hendrik is referring to as 6 directional force vector or the snake engine. What you discribed above seems to be more in line with Peng Jin and correct ground reaction force/rooting.


hello KFF,

That's about as much detail that would be useful really. Putting it into words where they are dissolved to, away from this or that wouldn't be very helpful because it would end up causing more speculation as to how much here or there...how it's done can't really be seen after all, the body is adjusting as a whole.

What are you adjusting inside your body as a whole to deal with incoming external force?



Hendrik,

Is this a good example of the excercises needed to loosen up the body in order to develop the snake engine and see hua?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI_1qSBNxBc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJA29UtmSw0&feature=related

[Hendrik]

I don't think this is what Hendrik is referring to as 6 directional force vector or the snake engine. What you discribed above seems to be more in line with Peng Jin and correct ground reaction force/rooting.

yup. you are correct.




What are you adjusting inside your body as a whole to deal with incoming external force?


What is not constantly adapting all the time?







Is this a good example of the excercises needed to loosen up the body in order to develop the snake engine and see hua?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI_1qSBNxBc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJA29UtmSw0&feature=related

Sure if one knows what one is doing.

This one is too even thought it is his own version of emei 12 zhuang type
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HFXIPyKrqs&feature=related


much much much much more important is will one willing to go Bai Si and learn otherwise, none of these will get one anywhere far by mimic-ing them.



Or you just need
3.30.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eWIAYvf9Q

if you know what to do.

Why make it so difficult? all of those snake this snake that snake ( do I care what snake? I dont) that is just keep telling you you got your credit card in your pocket and it is from the emai bank. use your credit card because it is from a legitimate bank and yours.

And then some start to argue with me and attack me.....etc because I told them they have credit from the legitimate bank. years in and years out they keep deny their own credit and enjoy that even I told them you dont have to be living in poverty, you have credit card in your pocket.

and finally some will ask me " I am really has the credit card" Sure, why not. that is yours got nothing todo with me. I know it because my ancestor Yik Kam told me. So I told you.

A simple world. human makes is sooooo difficult for themself.

[kung fu fighter]

What is not constantly adapting all the time?

what exactly do you adapt constantly to deal with incoming force, is it your physical body (your bones, joints, internal organs) or your internal energy?

[Hendrik]

what exactly do you adapt constantly to deal with incoming force, is it your physical body (your bones, joints, internal organs) or your internal energy?

all of the above if I am alive. :D


Six directional force vectors is just tool to tell the story of what happen with a force or motion or momentum in every transient. it is just a snap short of how things are at transient.

Snake technology is just a sensory and driving/ handling system which make the the whole aware-able and drive able/handle able.


With these Six and snake pair above, one is equip to handle the high speed transient, with holistic awareness, and swift handling. That's all. that is the meaning of Siu Lien Tau. The essense of details training.


The rest, who cares it is called six directional force or one piece of cake or snake technology or Ipad. Those are not important. you mind doesnt have control on your body as much as one think. and as for energy those are just ambiguity word and the mind not aware of most of the time. Thus, it is very dangerous to think to know, but in fact the mind doesnt know even the body.


if you want to sum up what I have post here for the past ten years. just read this post.

[Hendrik]

KFF,

Read these

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39985&highlight=xlm


All what you need to know is infront of your eyes. when things are before its time it is diffcult to understand at that time.

Compare with years ago when I wrote this Theo has ride through all four layers and more details tour in two hours the seconday we meet. I guess what use to take years or decades to undertand can be compressed into hours now.

Theo, you ask me if I still used the XML model at my home, well, I guess I become a living it. What do you think?


It seems that WCner's transformation is snow falling.

[theo]

Nope, no need extra set or add on.

WCK SLT set if not modified too far away from the red boat era, is an Emei 12 zhuang snake intrinsic embeded set. Developing Neigung in a transparent way if one knows how to turn on the engine.


Anyone who knows the technology knows the emei snake signature such as in the Biu Jee set 3.30.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eWIAYvf9Q

yup, further evidence by signature that this is in the set, whether one is aware or not

[theo]

KFF,

Read these

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39985&highlight=xlm


All what you need to know is infront of your eyes. when things are before its time it is diffcult to understand at that time.

Compare with years ago when I wrote this Theo has ride through all four layers and more details tour in two hours the seconday we meet. I guess what use to take years or decades to undertand can be compressed into hours now.

Theo, you ask me if I still used the XML model at my home, well, I guess I become a living it. What do you think?


It seems that WCner's transformation is snow falling.

i wonder how many years it has been since you thought of the XLM? as any good student does, u go back and read the classics haha. well the model is a great tool. it separates the foundation into different layers and one can then see how they are related and do deeper investigation on each layer. but all are one and one is all in the end. to take that and separate it into distinct layers was helpful to me, just like taking apart the engine to see how it works.

its true, before one's time then it's hard to understand. it seems like when one is ready the teacher appears, doesn't it? even though we are all capable of it, it's harder for some and easier for others to see. there was a time when i would have read it and put it aside, but you know, things happen and one is always changing. i guess when i asked you about the XLM, i was asking the XLM itself!

[theo]

The technology intrinsicly embeded in every move and every instant of the SLT practice of the set until one's every daily move is transform. It is transparent but there, there is not any kind of Family heigung stuffs. It is WCK the core and guts of WCK, only if one recognized it or not.

However , if one doesnt know the mind method the set is no different then any usual set. or default into physical exercise or drill or muscle programing...etc.

As 'here's the door but go through it alone man!' is not totally accurate. Those who go throught it is not alone because lots of people has go through that door and on the journey. also, is there really a door? does what one knows really transform one's world? or just some old chinese saying as in any movies where there is no substance or it is empty in reality.


BTW. breathing technology is not my word and I have never gone there. what you think is not what I am presenting. To be honest, those stuffs you mention is like a black and white flat screen movie what I present is like a 3 D hologram movie. one needs to see that 3 D hologram movie to recognize the world is a 3 D hologram and more, one knows that black and white practice is not adequate to represent the real world. Relax as mention above even sound great is still a black and white flat screen.

As I told Theo, six directional force... is a ticket to the movie. Ask Theo when he walks in that 3 D hologram cinema will his set be the same again or he has cross the line of no return. if he has cross the line of no return then he has gone through the door and started the journey.

When I mean not general Heigong, I mean it is something which will lead to the nature vibration or nature or God. It is about let go let God instead of something to manupulated body via mind. I mean a transformation/transcent of body and mind where one no longer as before.

That is the beauty of SLT , that is spring time.

with the six directional force and the snake technology, the difference in one's sets is heaven and earth. but the transformation will not occur without the xing fa. for me, that is the true beauty of the SLT, about bringing one back to Nature, to experience Let Go Let God. It is a body and mind transformation that is setting one free.

[theo]

Are you describing what you are doing or you are asking questions?


Theo,
the above sound like what I am presenting but is it what I am presenting? Care to share your view?






today is my sentimental day

This is for those who knows the six directional force and the snake to open up the channels

like a condor one levitate within the strong wind.
like a loaded arrow waiting to discharge
like a horse it firmly rush out
like a human one has a boundless heart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUFl_MeTz1Q&feature=related


This is my view for those who knows chinese

千秋霸业,百战成功
边声四起唱大风
一马奔腾,射雕引弓
天地都在我心中
狂沙路万里，关山月朦胧
寂寞高手一时俱无踪
真情谁与共，生死可相从
大事临头向前冲，恩义重

Hendrik,

It sounds like it, but not quite. being aware of the 6 directions is great but it is about being aware and handling them at any instant. the body can be in two states, static or dynamic. in either state, the 6 directional force is present. what we are presenting here is a way to allow the body to be in neutral in any action with no over-compensating force in any direction be it static or dynamic state.

furthermore, the whole body awareness that we are discussing requires the activation of the joints, sinews, tendons, meridians etc which is what the emei technology brings

[Hendrik]

yup, further evidence by signature that this is in the set, whether one is aware or not



传一曲天荒地老
共一生水远山高
会盟天下英豪
无招胜有招

心还在,人去了
回首一片风雨飘摇

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-2rXQbVN6o&feature=related

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

It sounds like it, but not quite. being aware of the 6 directions is great but it is about being aware and handling them at any instant. the body can be in two states, static or dynamic. in either state, the 6 directional force is present. what we are presenting here is a way to allow the body to be in neutral in any action with no over-compensating force in any direction be it static or dynamic state.

furthermore, the whole body awareness that we are discussing requires the activation of the joints, sinews, tendons, meridians etc which is what the emei technology brings


You are correct. eventhough it sounds like it, it is thousand miles off...

and also it is still in the realm of "thinking" where we are trap thinking we could do this or that or get alert....etc but in the reality the mind cant handle these....

ya, the awareness opening has to occur to replace the above thinking.


Thus, the Xing Fa also is a Kung Fa where one know and be able to follow in order to practice with it instead of a different perspective thoughts.

[FongSung]

Hendrik,

It sounds like it, but not quite. being aware of the 6 directions is great but it is about being aware and handling them at any instant. the body can be in two states, static or dynamic. in either state, the 6 directional force is present. what we are presenting here is a way to allow the body to be in neutral in any action with no over-compensating force in any direction be it static or dynamic state.

furthermore, the whole body awareness that we are discussing requires the activation of the joints, sinews, tendons, meridians etc which is what the emei technology brings

:)

Didn't i say that whilst being very layman-ish. It was idle talk off the top of my head after reading a post by someone on the 6 vectors thread.

Quote:
Of course you have to be alert, in a state of readiness able to adjust not just with the mind idle and day dreaming nor should you be concentrating on trying to do this (trying to hard). It should be natural, second nature. Was me indicating that you don't even think of all thses stuff.

Alert, constant state of readiness = " it is about being aware and handling them at any instant". :)
and being in a state of "neutrality" is what we are talking about of course:cool:

Do I need to mention the meridian's etc do you stand or move thinking about opening them or your joints, sinews etc etc.

All this is part of the training of SLT whether you understand it or have the terminology or not.

Another thread was asking about ehy we have Forms and are they practical for this day and age, or something? Maybe this is the answer and whether you want this quote "engine" or not.


Like others have said this is nothing new, spectacular, advanced it's something you attain over time given the right direction. Many others have this (Noteably YiQuan and Koichi Tohei Aikido) and your way of explaining detail is only required when trying to explain in places like this or in books. I just join the conversation due to boredom at work ;) and yes actually I am a more than a 1,000 miles away :D

[LoneTiger108]

Nope, no need extra set or add on.

WCK SLT set if not modified too far away from the red boat era, is an Emei 12 zhuang snake intrinsic embeded set. Developing Neigung in a transparent way if one knows how to turn on the engine.


Anyone who knows the technology knows the emei snake signature such as in the Biu Jee set 3.30.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4eWIAYvf9Q

I'm still finding it hard to see what you're saying. The 12 Zhuang isn't an 'extra' set that you have used to compliment the SLT, or awake the engine of your forms? In all the clips posted, except for Sifu Sergios, the practitioners are not doing anything from the WCK forms.

I understand that you may have experienced something very unique and can now see this snake technology within SLT, but what I am saying is that I think I feel the same WITHOUT the additional 12 Zhuang ideas. And it was within SLT, not BJ, that I experienced this first.

Sergios clip, though interesting, does not tell me anything 'new'.

[Hendrik]

I'm still finding it hard to see what you're saying.
Sergios clip, though interesting, does not tell me anything 'new'.


You will see it somedays when you take out your "sun glasses" expect to see what is and what is not WCK and return to see the nature just as it is.



It is very valueable because it tells the story of how all WCK does something.

Secret is always hidden within the obvious thus most never see them.

[FongSung]

Some believe that originally there was just SLT :), A long set that was broken up into SLT/SNT, CK, BJ. (As you already know;))

So where you say you felt it first doesn't matter:) I would be surprised if you didn't feel it first in the form you practised the longest.

You don't need to practise Ermei.
Hasn't Hendrik already point out other Wing Chun sifu's who he say's have what he is explaining? (As you already know;))

[Hendrik]

:)

Didn't i say that whilst being very layman-ish. It was idle talk off the top of my head after reading a post by someone on the 6 vectors thread.

Quote:
Of course you have to be alert, in a state of readiness able to adjust not just with the mind idle and day dreaming nor should you be concentrating on trying to do this (trying to hard). It should be natural, second nature. Was me indicating that you don't even think of all thses stuff.

Alert, constant state of readiness = " it is about being aware and handling them at any instant". :)
and being in a state of "neutrality" is what we are talking about of course:cool:

Do I need to mention the meridian's etc do you stand or move thinking about opening them or your joints, sinews etc etc.

All this is part of the training of SLT whether you understand it or have the terminology or not.

Another thread was asking about ehy we have Forms and are they practical for this day and age, or something? Maybe this is the answer and whether you want this quote "engine" or not.


Like others have said this is nothing new, spectacular, advanced it's something you attain over time given the right direction. Many others have this (Noteably YiQuan and Koichi Tohei Aikido) and your way of explaining detail is only required when trying to explain in places like this or in books. I just join the conversation due to boredom at work ;) and yes actually I am a more than a 1,000 miles away :D



KFF,

What do you think on the above? Since you are a great fan of mine. hahaha

[LoneTiger108]

You will see it somedays when you take out your "sun glasses" WCK and return to see the nature as it is.

Careful there Hendrik, I don't want you to strain your shen with your slight-handed insults! Of course my WCK is the 'sunglasses' kind because I've been kept in the shade eh? Or am I misreading you again?


It is very valueable because it tells the story of how all WCK does something.

Secret is always hidden within the obvious thus most never see them.

I'm not a fan of secrets, and this is what I was trying to see from you Hendrik. How honest are you exactly?


Some believe that originally there was just SLT , A long set that was broken up into SLT/SNT, CK, BJ. (As you already know)

So where you say you felt it first doesn't matter I would be surprised if you didn't feel it first in the form you practised the longest.

You don't need to practise Ermei.
Hasn't Hendrik already point out other Wing Chun sifu's who he say's have what he is explaining? (As you already know)

Was this aimed at me FongSung?? Because it sure felt like it was ;)

[FongSung]

Ha ha :)

I'm just follow ur advise a little, testing the water.

[Hendrik]

Careful there Hendrik, I don't want you to strain your shen with your slight-handed insults! Of course my WCK is the 'sunglasses' kind because I've been kept in the shade eh? Or am I misreading you again?


I am telling you in a polite way that you dont see what it is with the sunglasses analogy.

if I am going to be blunt and direct, I will tell you your training has mold you rigid. but then that will start a holy war of you defend yourself right?

and as a human, we all have in sometimes being modl rigid or wearing those sunglasses, and somedays when we decide to take it off, that's it. it is just a part of human nature.




I'm not a fan of secrets, and this is what I was trying to see from you Hendrik. How honest are you exactly?

How honest I am depend on how clear could you read my description as it is.

For those who knows there is no secret, for those who dont they always think there must be some very special secret....etc.


I have just pulled out an old post since 2006 for KFF yesterday, What I talk I walk. be it with KFF or Theo or others....

No changes of story for past decades, 2000 or 2010, it is as it is. Check it out.

[LoneTiger108]

Ha ha :)

I'm just follow ur advise a little, testing the water.

Well, that's good to know.


I am telling you in a polite way that you dont see what it is with the sunglasses analogy.

And I've been trying to share with you that I do 'feel' like I am familiar with what you write, although I have not been exposed to the Emei 12 Zhuang as you have. But of course, I CAN'T know or feel that way if I've only ever learnt Wing Chun can I? Well, and a little Shotokan lol!

[Hendrik]

Six directional force vectors, Snake engine, Levitate, Silence, Loose, Nature flow....


:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhOAeXetIPI&NR=1

風中柳絲舒懶腰　幾點絮飛飄也飄
willow relax in the wind a few cotton floating

誰能力抗勁風　為何梁木折腰 柳絮卻可輕卸掉
how could strong wind be resist, even strong tree break, but willow and cotton dissolve it with ease

風驚雨急自巍立 扁舟也可度狂潮　　
Within the thunder storm stood tall, single little boat could cross the wild tide

以柔力撥千斤 淡然隨遇變招　
Using the Soft power to lift thousand of pounds, with ease adapt in any circumstances.

[theo]

Six directional force vectors, Snake engine, Levitate, Silence, Loose, Nature flow....


:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhOAeXetIPI&NR=1

風中柳絲舒懶腰　幾點絮飛飄也飄
willow relax in the wind a few cotton floating

誰能力抗勁風　為何梁木折腰 柳絮卻可輕卸掉
how could strong wind be resist, even strong tree break, but willow and cotton dissolve it with ease

風驚雨急自巍立 扁舟也可度狂潮　　
Within the thunder storm stood tall, single little boat could cross the wild tide

以柔力撥千斤 淡然隨遇變招　
Using the Soft power to lift thousand of pounds, with ease adapt in any circumstances.

we should say this stuff when doing the SLT with the whoosh whoosh sound effects in every motion

[LoneTiger108]

we should say this stuff when doing the SLT with the whoosh whoosh sound effects in every motion

That would be an interesting sight. I think.

[theo]

for those wondering about the six directional forces and the snake engine...

the six directional force vectors are present in every instant.

As a result, they describe motion and by extension, momentum at any instant.

Put together with the time component, then we are describing the trajectory of that momentum. As trajectory is the motion over time, from the trajectory then, we know the past momentum and thus it is included as well. When one is training the 6D force, when practiced with loose, silence, and nature, one will begin to be aware of those 6 forces (or combination thereof). With the awareness then comes the handling.

when balanced, then one is in levitation state. In levitation, one will begin to move naturally and experience true neutral. This is different than what some may call Relax or Loose. Being Relaxed and Loose are nice, but that alone is not enough to get one into Awareness. And often, one will think they are Relaxed and Loose except they are not.

thus if one is capable of handling the 6D in motion (dynamic), one should be able to take care of static as well. in Awareness one will become aware of the 6D force naturally as the body naturally expands in the six directions. when one part of the body moves, the whole body moves. Thus in the SLT, there is no such thing as only the arm moving during the punch or any other motion as the entire body is moving. The momentum generated in each motion then is also recycled and reused so that one does not have to start and stop or get stuck at some instant.

now in order to feel the Awareness over the entire body, one needs to be able to open or activate the physical body to allow the sensing and awareness ability to extend throughout the body. just being physically loose and relaxed will not cause one to be aware of the 6D because you also need the silence. so the snake engine gives one the ability to handle the 6D at a very fine granularity, from the fingertip to the toes. one needs both 6D and the snake engine in order to handle momentum dynamically at any instant at any kind of contact. without the snake engine, one cannot handle all the detail down to the smallest level. without the 6D, one cannot know how to handle the momentum.

so the 6D gives one the knowledge of how to handle the momentum and the snake engine gives one the tools to handle it down to the small details. thus when the sets are performed this way, one becomes aware of the details of the momentum in each motion and how the entire body is involved. this will cause movement or momentum in the body thus making it alive. as one becomes aware of the momentum, then one can start to see how via the momentum generators the momentum can be amplified or how the generators can be combined...which gets into fajin and hua jin...

[Hendrik]

KFF,

Isnt what Theo post is what you want?

Enjoy, complement of Yik Kam for Xmas 2010. Let the cat out...

[LoneTiger108]

one needs both 6D and the snake engine in order to handle momentum dynamically at any instant at any kind of contact. without the snake engine, one cannot handle all the detail down to the smallest level. without the 6D, one cannot know how to handle the momentum.

No disrespect here, but don't you think/know that some families do exactly what you're describing without the esoteric terms of 'snake engine' and '6D'? Actually I would say 'most' families of Wing Chun will have this, especially among their seniors.

And they didn't need either snake or 6D to get it...

[Hendrik]

No disrespect here, but don't you think/know that some families do exactly what you're describing without the esoteric terms of 'snake engine' and '6D'?

Actually I would say 'most' families of Wing Chun will have this, especially among their seniors.

And they didn't need either snake or 6D to get it...


1, term such as snake engine and 6D are just term for communication, one can call it anything.

2, This is a sharing to promote open sharing, no one said other family doesnt have it. In fact, I keep telling every family has it isnt it? check my previous posts.

3, why is all the fuzz on the label term which is not important at all?
instead of ask yourself can you do what others do such as Hua Jin....etc?
or share on how your family cultivate the snake or 6 D even if not name it that way?

[LoneTiger108]

3, why is all the fuzz on the label term which is not important at all?
instead of ask yourself can you do what others do such as Hua Jin....etc?
or share on how your family cultivate the snake or 6 D even if not name it that way?

Have I not tried to do this already?? Share?? I only get negative responses to my terms too, so you're not alone Hendrik!

And FWIW the term is MOST IMPORTANT!! I'll give you an example. You obviously speak mandarin as your terms suggest that. But maybe 90-100% of westerners would have initially learnt Wing Chun in Cantonese, so already our romanizations need balancing. Our langauges are confusing to eachother and without having simple terms like this universal, where exactly do you think you are leading this forum? This thread, and others, does seem to be a marketing push on your behalf, but I might be wrong about that. And you. I'm just attempting to share and be more civil!

Then you talk of methods such as Hua Jin? What's that? In cantonese?? Or translated to English? Where is it mentioned in WCK? In what context?

And finally, I cultivate the snake in a number of ways and especially my SLT is very snake/crane like in nature, as are my pole plays (as is everbody elses too fme!) But how you describe the snake engine seems to only explore the heiging/qigong/chigung internal stuffs so tell me, where is your Yi/Xi when you practice the saam bai fut/1st set/section? When do you inhale exhale? What sounds do you make? What organ are you nurturing? What is 'your' definition of silent mind?

Can you teach all this to everyone here on the forum? Do you use any of these methods to teach people who visit you? Or are you just a trickster?

Personally, I think the snake thing is there as the yum/yin to the cranes yeurng/yang which is a speciality in itself and in desparate need of clarification for everbodies benefit. The snake & crane have deep rooted history in Chinese Culture that goes beyond the Red Boats too imho, kinda like masonic symbols in the West. So to even promote them as something unique to yourself or Yik Kam is a bit condescending to many of us humble Wing Chun practitioners imho.

[kung fu fighter]

now in order to feel the Awareness over the entire body, one needs to be able to open or activate the physical body to allow the sensing and awareness ability to extend throughout the body. just being physically loose and relaxed will not cause one to be aware of the 6D because you also need the silence. so the snake engine gives one the ability to handle the 6D at a very fine granularity, from the fingertip to the toes. one needs both 6D and the snake engine in order to handle momentum dynamically at any instant at any kind of contact. without the snake engine, one cannot handle all the detail down to the smallest level. without the 6D, one cannot know how to handle the momentum.


How does one open or activate the physical body?

[Hendrik]

How does one open or activate the physical body?

use the snake engine within the WCK sets.

[kung fu fighter]

use the snake engine within the WCK sets.

Where exactly is the snake engine in each wck sets?

[Hendrik]

Where exactly is the snake engine in each wck sets?

Every move at every instant has it.
it is a technology or a way to transform how the body move or body handling instead of some type of motion which look like snake.

[Hendrik]

Understood, please read the previous posts of this thread for your questions.




Have I not tried to do this already?? Share?? I only get negative responses to my terms too, so you're not alone Hendrik!

And FWIW the term is MOST IMPORTANT!! I'll give you an example. You obviously speak mandarin as your terms suggest that. But maybe 90-100% of westerners would have initially learnt Wing Chun in Cantonese, so already our romanizations need balancing. Our langauges are confusing to eachother and without having simple terms like this universal, where exactly do you think you are leading this forum? This thread, and others, does seem to be a marketing push on your behalf, but I might be wrong about that. And you. I'm just attempting to share and be more civil!

Then you talk of methods such as Hua Jin? What's that? In cantonese?? Or translated to English? Where is it mentioned in WCK? In what context?

And finally, I cultivate the snake in a number of ways and especially my SLT is very snake/crane like in nature, as are my pole plays (as is everbody elses too fme!) But how you describe the snake engine seems to only explore the heiging/qigong/chigung internal stuffs so tell me, where is your Yi/Xi when you practice the saam bai fut/1st set/section? When do you inhale exhale? What sounds do you make? What organ are you nurturing? What is 'your' definition of silent mind?

Can you teach all this to everyone here on the forum? Do you use any of these methods to teach people who visit you? Or are you just a trickster?

Personally, I think the snake thing is there as the yum/yin to the cranes yeurng/yang which is a speciality in itself and in desparate need of clarification for everbodies benefit. The snake & crane have deep rooted history in Chinese Culture that goes beyond the Red Boats too imho, kinda like masonic symbols in the West. So to even promote them as something unique to yourself or Yik Kam is a bit condescending to many of us humble Wing Chun practitioners imho.

[theo]

Where exactly is the snake engine in each wck sets?

KFF,


IMHO, the snake engine isn't a "move" or something that is in the sets, it's a "engine" a way of "powering" the sets. similar to a car, you get different results with different engines. just depends on whether one is using it or not.

[LoneTiger108]

IMHO, the snake engine isn't a "move" or something that is in the sets, it's a "engine" a way of "powering" the sets. similar to a car, you get different results with different engines. just depends on whether one is using it or not.

I would call this 'will' Theo. An intention of will to be precise.

I agree that the natural movement of SLT should nurture this 'engine', but I also know that the SLT goes deeper than that if performed correctly. And this is the problem from what I have experienced compared to what I generally see.

When I first learnt SLT there were no jerking motions, no stopping within each set/section and definitely no explanation of 'this is for that' etc. It was just about your self. Keeping a steady flow (and to music Hendrik!) and this started the development of what I understand to be what you call the 'snake engine'. Very feminine actually. With excentuated small circles. FME The huensau is the key to SLT and the power behind the engine you talk of. But I may just be clutching at straws?!

It's not the best example of what I'm talking about but check this out and let me know what you think

http://www.youtube.com/user/bongtanfuc#p/a/u/1/rDz9uJXySaQ

[Hendrik]

It's not the best example of what I'm talking about but check this out and let me know what you think

http://www.youtube.com/user/bongtanfuc#p/a/u/1/rDz9uJXySaQ


Every one can answer this by themself.

Take a look at 1.25 to 3.4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig&feature=related


Pay attention to my biu Jee example. 2.15 to 2.23 from my finger tips to my shoulder and the jin express .




look at your clip pay attention to all the joints (from the tips of the fingers to the body) moment and see what is it close to?



Doing things softly is not the key of focus.

Is the joints moments : acute angle, sometimes totally straight, and jerk with edge, and straight strech push out or continuous flow with rotation spiral out..... tell me what you see in your clip?


KFF, the snake engine is right infront of your eyes and you run past it for past so many years.

[kung fu fighter]

KFF, the snake engine is right infront of your eyes and you run past it for past so many years.

Can you give a few more clues, does it have to do with chi gung?

How does one develop or become aware of it?

[Hendrik]

Can you give a few more clues, does it have to do with chi gung?

How does one develop or become aware of it?




Take a look of how much write up in the past two weeks on these topic was post in this forum.


Face it, everything is in front of your eyes and ear. but if you cant making sense out of it then it is the time to go Baisi and learn it.
As the Zen teaching said, after read all the Koan if one still not getting it, it is time to go visiting other Zen masters.

That is the reality we all dont like but it is a fact. Do you think I have not travel your path? I did and I change path.



take a look at how other WCK lineage do it at last part of the clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E&playnext=1&list=PL74C628B90CA68960&index=11

[Scott R. Brown]

Yes KFF,

Can't you see Hendrik graciously took nothing and made it look like something mysterious, convincing everyone it was something special?

Now everyone wants to know what it REALLY is? It came from nothing and it will go back to nothing. Because it was nothing from the start, in the end all you will have is nothing that someone "convinced you" was something!

For reference material I suggest viewing "Monty Python's The Life of Brian" in order to see how dimwits may be easily fooled into thinking nothing is really worth something!;)

[Hendrik]

Yes KFF,

Can't you see Hendrik graciously took nothing and made it look like something mysterious, convincing everyone it was something special?

Now everyone wants to know what it REALLY is? It came from nothing and it will go back to nothing. Because it was nothing from the start, in the end all you will have is nothing that someone "convinced you" was something!

For reference material I suggest viewing "Monty Python's The Life of Brian" in order to see how dimwits may be easily fooled into thinking nothing is really worth something!;)


Scott,

Keep posting, I like to be entertain.

See, if KFF will agree with you.

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott,

Keep posting, I like to be entertain.

See, if KFF will agree with you.

You can bullsh!t the kids, but not the adults!

I like to be entertained too! You are a fraud, but you have convinced these kids you know something mysterious! You should be ashamed of yourself for allowing allowing these kids to stroke your ego!

[Hendrik]

You can bullsh!t the kids, but not the adults!

I like to be entertained too!

You are a fraud, but you have convinced these kids you know something mysterious!

You should be ashamed of yourself for allowing allowing these kids to stroke your ego!



hahaha,

Great entertainment !


Kids? adults? KFF are you a Kid?

Mysterious? sorry nothing is mysterious here.

Stroke ego? WCK technical discussion here for Wcner?
Scott do you practice WCK? or you got so bored in the Xmas day and wanting some attention? hahahe. Keep up with your posting I let the moderator delete them.

[Scott R. Brown]

hahaha,

Great entertainment !


Kids? adults? KFF are you a Kid?

Mysterious? sorry nothing is mysterious here.

Stroke ego? WCK technical discussion here for Wcner?
Scott do you practice WCK? or you got so bored in the Xmas day and wanting some attention? hahahe. Keep up with your posting I let the moderator delete them.

When someone asks you for an explanation because your explanations are too obtuse to understand and you tell them to go look elsewhere, you are demonstrating your own lack of technical understanding. If you cannot explain it simply you either don't understand yourself or are intentionally being obtuse/mysterious. Either one provides nothing profitable to a learner.

My "technical" advice as a former elite athlete with 35 years of training in many athletic disciplines is: The body knows what to do if you let it respond spontaneously. Practice your skills in various environments, including actual unstructured fighting, and it will respond according to what is necessary on its own, without any of this "technical" mumbo jumbo confusing the issue!

Intellectual pursuits for the enjoyment of it all is fine, If your goal is to learn to fight, forget it all. Stop worrying about it. Understanding all this "technical" bull and anything Hendrik or anyone else says concerning it is useless in a real fight. Which is why people like Henrik get their butts beat by basics trained streetfighters.

Why chase a made-up mystery when meat and potatoes will take you where you want to go with a lot less time, expense and aggravation?

[LoneTiger108]

Every one can answer this by themself.

Well, obviously not as again you fail to see what I'm getting at.

I'm just so glad I've had my feast and can look forward to a great new year of training in the way I know and the way that feels natural to me. I thought I found similarities in what you and Theo have shared on this thread, but I haven't.

Good luck on your journey in 2011!

[Hendrik]

Just say you dont do WCK, dont know internal training, and you hate me for some reason.
I am ok with it.

As for the Ego part, I didnt go to your thread and post as a "police" forcing others to post thing my way and commenting on things I am clueless. So by evidence isnt it you are driven by that big self-righteousness ego of yours to post all of these? You dont come with peace and trying to understand isnt it?




When someone asks you for an explanation because your explanations are too obtuse to understand and you tell them to go look elsewhere, you are demonstrating your own lack of technical understanding. If you cannot explain it simply you either don't understand yourself or are intentionally being obtuse/mysterious. Either one provides nothing profitable to a learner.

My "technical" advice as a former elite athlete with 35 years of training in many athletic disciplines is: The body knows what to do if you let it respond spontaneously. Practice your skills in various environments, including actual unstructured fighting, and it will respond according to what is necessary on its own, without any of this "technical" mumbo jumbo confusing the issue!

Intellectual pursuits for the enjoyment of it all is fine, If your goal is to learn to fight, forget it all. Stop worrying about it. Understanding all this "technical" bull and anything Hendrik or anyone else says concerning it is useless in a real fight. Which is why people like Henrik get their butts beat by basics trained streetfighters.

Why chase a made-up mystery when meat and potatoes will take you where you want to go with a lot less time, expense and aggravation?

[Hendrik]

Well, obviously not as again you fail to see what I'm getting at.

I'm just so glad I've had my feast and can look forward to a great new year of training in the way I know and the way that feels natural to me.

I thought I found similarities in what you and Theo have shared on this thread, but I haven't.

Good luck on your journey in 2011!

I actually have make a post to comment on your clip. but then I delete it. It is better to let everyone see things for themselve. IMHO.

Thanks and have a Happy prosper 2011!

[LoneTiger108]

I actually have make a post to comment on your clip. but then I delete it.

You can always tell me what you think by emailing me directly if you wish.

[Hendrik]

You can always tell me what you think by emailing me directly if you wish.

With me getting older, I am adopting, everything is OK attitude these days, it is better to let us all find our own answer...

[Scott R. Brown]

Just say you dont do WCK, dont know internal training, and you hate me for some reason.
I am ok with it.

Just because I disagree with just about everything you ever post doesn't mean I hate you Hendrik. And I am unconcerned with what you are okay with or not. It is immaterial what I train in. I know more about and practice more about internal that you do anyway. I just prefer not to use jargon and mysterious sounding bunk to make it sound mysterious and special, because it is actually everyday and common.

I am merely taking time to correct you. Think of it as being generous to a wayward soul! I do nothing you don't presume to do for others. I am just more specific that you. I don't dance around the issue with obtuse Chinese quotes. I come straight to the point. If it offends you that is your problem. If you don't like it then perhaps correct yourself before you correct others!;)


As for the Ego part, I didnt go to your thread and post as a "police" forcing others to post thing my way and commenting on things I am clueless. So by evidence isnt it you are driven by that big self-righteousness ego of yours to post all of these? You dont come with peace and trying to understand isnt it?

No, and don't pretend you post in peace because you don't. I made a substantive comment/criticism concerning the manner in which you treat people who have come to you for information.

You say you want substantive conversations, yet you never address the issue I bring up. It is immaterial what I train. Information is information. I think you were unfair to KFF and dismissive of his request and somewhat belittling too. If you are going to set yourself up to be an authority, I think you should be a bit more straight-forward and less dismissive. When you behave with dismissiveness you come across as thinking you are superior to others. This is a flaw in your teaching style, if you are truly as sincere in your intent as you claim.

If my participation upsets you, just consider all the other things you have said on various threads I could have commented upon, but did not. I have been very gracious to you. If you wish to engage me on any thread I participate in, please feel free. If I do not want to play with you, I will just ignore you!;)

[Hendrik]

Great post, I let others to read and decide for themselve what are you practicing. For me it is a great entertainment.



Just because I disagree with just about everything you ever post doesn't mean I hate you Hendrik. And I am unconcerned with what you are okay with or not. It is immaterial what I train in. I know more about and practice more about internal that you do anyway. I just prefer not to use jargon and mysterious sounding bunk to make it sound mysterious and special, because it is actually everyday and common.

I am merely taking time to correct you. Think of it as being generous to a wayward soul! I do nothing you don't presume to do for others. I am just more specific that you. I don't dance around the issue with obtuse Chinese quotes. I come straight to the point. If it offends you that is your problem. If you don't like it then perhaps correct yourself before you correct others!;)



No, and don't pretend you post in peace because you don't. I made a substantive comment/criticism concerning the manner in which you treat people who have come to you for information.

You say you want substantive conversations, yet you never address the issue I bring up. It is immaterial what I train. Information is information. I think you were unfair to KFF and dismissive of his request and somewhat belittling too. If you are going to set yourself up to be an authority, I think you should be a bit more straight-forward and less dismissive. When you behave with dismissiveness you come across as thinking you are superior to others. This is a flaw in your teaching style, if you are truly as sincere in your intent as you claim.

If my participation upsets you, just consider all the other things you have said on various threads I could have commented upon, but did not. I have been very gracious to you. If you wish to engage me on any thread I participate in, please feel free. If I do not want to play with you, I will just ignore you!;)

[taai gihk yahn]

Just say you dont do WCK, dont know internal training,
why do u assume that? because he takes issue with ur perspective? this is a common response on ur part, to declare that the person disagreeing w u "doesn't know" internal training; why is that?


and you hate me for some reason.
u r equating disagreement and criticism with hatred (something u hav done at other times) - u seem to like to cast urself as some sort of victimized individual who is "hated" for his beliefs - that's a bit of a projection, to speculate that Scott "hates" u, it wud suggest an emotional attachment to you that really wudn't b possible, since this is all discussion on an internet forum; at best, he cud hate his own projection of who he thinks u r; seems like u hav a bit of a persecution complex, to jump from disagreement to hatred; why is that?


As for the Ego part, I didnt go to your thread and post as a "police" forcing others to post thing my way
a) this is not "your" thread; it is a public thread on a public forum;
b) Scott can no more "force" anyone to post "his" way than anyone one else can;
again, u ascribe characteristics to a person / situation that r not true and do nothing but over-dramatize things; why is that?

[Scott R. Brown]

Great post, I let others to read and decide for themselve what are you practicing. For me it is a great entertainment.

Good idea! I can see there are many who find what you have to say of value. You will note I don't make a habit of trying to dissuade anyone from asking you anything nor do I follow you around looking for something to criticize.

The best thing for you to do, if I irritate you, is to ignore me when I have something to say. I will comment as I am inclined from time to time regardless, however without your participation, there is no conversation. On the other hand, the fact you respond to me appears to indicate you get something out of our interactions. I know I do, or I wouldn't take the time to do it!:)

[Hendrik]

Good idea! I can see there are many who find what you have to say of value. You will note I don't make a habit of trying to dissuade anyone from asking you anything nor do I follow you around looking for something to criticize.

The best thing for you to do, if I irritate you, is to ignore me when I have something to say. I will comment as I am inclined from time to time regardless, however without your participation, there is no conversation. On the other hand, the fact you respond to me appears to indicate you get something out of our interactions. I know I do, or I wouldn't take the time to do it!:)


You are like a movie or mirror for me. entertainment when it is a movie, mirror when I always could improve.

[Scott R. Brown]

You are like a movie or mirror for me. entertainment when it is a movie, mirror when I always could improve.

As every phenomena we interact with should be!

All life is, is a mirror reflecting us back upon ourselves. It is meant to be both entertaining and a learning experience!:);)

See, even irritating gadflies serve a purpose!:D

[kung fu fighter]

I think you were unfair to KFF and dismissive of his request and somewhat belittling too. If you are going to set yourself up to be an authority, I think you should be a bit more straight-forward and less dismissive. When you behave with dismissiveness you come across as thinking you are superior to others. When someone asks you for an explanation because your explanations are too obtuse to understand and you tell them to go look elsewhere

Scott I agree! I do believe Hendrik have sommething of value to share, I just wish he would be more straight-forward and less dismissive. Just when i thought we were making some progress he defaulted back to bai si therefore shutting me down instead of discussing the details involved with his snake engine.

[taai gihk yahn]

Scott I agree! I wish Hendrik would be more straight-forward and less dismissive, just when i thought we were making some progress he defaulted back to bai si therefore shutting me down instead of discussing the details involved with his snake engine.
Hendrick has a particular style; if you are attracted to his particular methods, then that will serve you; if you find it instructive and useful, go with it; however, if it does not, then best to move on; what's more, to wish he would be otherwise (more straight-forward, less dissmisive), or try to change the way he is, is fruitless - he will remain as he is because this serves his needs, whatever those may be; and please do not be confused: when I (or Scott, if I may SPECULATE) engage him critically, it is not because we want him to change or, even think that he might - in fact, I have absolutely no hope that he will! ;)

[taai gihk yahn]

You are like a movie or mirror for me. entertainment when it is a movie, mirror when I always could improve.

well said!

[Scott R. Brown]

There is a long Asian tradition of "demonstrating for a student" and then letting him figure it out for himself. This method is outdated. It is inefficient and frustrating for students in the modern world. It does not make a student a better fighter or a better instructor, neither does it bestow any special insight on the student. All it does is allow them to remain an incompetent fighter for a longer period of time and frustrates them when a simple instruction of 5 or so minutes can save them years of wandering aimlessly trying to figure something out on their own.

Fighting and fighting principles are simple and basic, NOT complicated and profound. Anyone who makes them complicated and profound is doing an injustice to those wishing to learn and demonstrating their own lack of depth of understanding.

So, on occasion, I feel motivated to comment on the subject. Hendrik just happens to be a glittering example of what NOT to do! That is not to say he doesn't have sommething of value to share from time to time. He just tends to make it seem too mysterious and complicated to understand much of the time. Since I disagree with his method, I say so!

It's nothing personal! Although I can see how it may appear personal since I tend to be direct and blunt with my comments towards him! I do this because he is generally stubborn and thinks he is a know-it-all, or at least comes across that way; people like that require a straight forward and blunt style.

[YouKnowWho]

too mysterious and complicated to understand .

Agree 100% there. The striking art is just a punch to the head or a kick to the groin. The throwing art is just to push the head down and kick the legs up. We truly don't need to use any fancy terms but just to use plain English that everybody can understand.

Who care if you knock me down by your Min Jin, An Jin, or Hua Jin? As long as I'm down, that should be good enough for you.

When someone cuts my head off with his sword, whether he was using "internal" power or "external" power won't matter to me at that particular moment.

[Hendrik]

Scott I agree! I do believe Hendrik have sommething of value to share, I just wish he would be more straight-forward and less dismissive. Just when i thought we were making some progress he defaulted back to bai si therefore shutting me down instead of discussing the details involved with his snake engine.




What to complain?

Whatever need to say, said. Whatever need to show shows in the Youtube. If you dont get it then you need to get help from a sifu. That is a reality.


Theo fly around the world to verify what his view is. I have to called Mainland China for my sifu's help in internal art with QQ conference even after I train for years everyday . Sifu Robert Chu Baisi to the old age Pole expert sifu to learn pole. That is how art was learn. Others or me no different. Even if one is super smart and has very indepth kung fu, still, one always learn from some others who is better then one, when one dont get it. That is a reality.

For me,
Life is always fair, how much one get depend on how much one dedicate and pour one's blood and sweat in. There is no short cut or Chinese slow way or Western fast way when it comes to Kung Fu cultivation.


Since you agree to Scot; then why dont you ask him to teach you in details all the Hua Jin stuffs here. and I would like to see how Scot can do it better then me. Go a head Scot.

[Hendrik]

Agree 100% there. The striking art is just a punch to the head or a kick to the groin. The throwing art is just to push the head down and kick the legs up. We truly don't need to use any fancy terms but just to use plain English that everybody can understand.

Who care if you knock me down by your Min Jin, An Jin, or Hua Jin? As long as I'm down, that should be good enough for you.

When someone cuts my head off with his sword, whether he was using "internal" power or "external" power won't matter to me at that particular moment.



So this is the out burst from some one always presenting the idea of talk sweet to make other happy instead of talk straight?

IMHO, with this type of attitude you might as well go and buy a Neuclear Bomb and flip a switch to blow everything up. There is no point to practice an art.

Also, I am talking the art of WCK here not fighting. So, please not off track the subject.

[theo]

There is a long Asian tradition of "demonstrating for a student" and then letting him figure it out for himself. This method is outdated. It is inefficient and frustrating for students in the modern world. It does not make a student a better fighter or a better instructor, neither does it bestow any special insight on the student. All it does is allow them to remain an incompetent fighter for a longer period of time and frustrates them when a simple instruction of 5 or so minutes can save them years of wandering aimlessly trying to figure something out on their own.

Fighting and fighting principles are simple and basic, NOT complicated and profound. Anyone who makes them complicated and profound is doing an injustice to those wishing to learn and demonstrating their own lack of depth of understanding.

So, on occasion, I feel motivated to comment on the subject. Hendrik just happens to be a glittering example of what NOT to do! That is not to say he doesn't have sommething of value to share from time to time. He just tends to make it seem too mysterious and complicated to understand much of the time. Since I disagree with his method, I say so!

It's nothing personal! Although I can see how it may appear personal since I tend to be direct and blunt with my comments towards him! I do this because he is generally stubborn and thinks he is a know-it-all, or at least comes across that way; people like that require a straight forward and blunt style.

Scott, IMO the teacher can only show the door to the student and and it's up to the student to enter and develop the kung fu. and actually, things are quite simple to know, but mastering them is what takes effort and where the "deep end" is. one needs a sifu to show them the way, but after that it's up to the student. it's true simple instruction of 5 minutes or so can save years, and that's the sifu's job. the masters of the old days trained in this way as well, students trained and if the sifu notices something, he might point it out. there's nothing mysterious or complicated here, just levels and levels of training so it all depends on what you're looking for. also, hendrik was discussing the WCK technology and not about fighting.

[theo]

Agree 100% there. The striking art is just a punch to the head or a kick to the groin. The throwing art is just to push the head down and kick the legs up. We truly don't need to use any fancy terms but just to use plain English that everybody can understand.

Who care if you knock me down by your Min Jin, An Jin, or Hua Jin? As long as I'm down, that should be good enough for you.

When someone cuts my head off with his sword, whether he was using "internal" power or "external" power won't matter to me at that particular moment.

you might be oversimplifying here. it's analogous to playing an instrument, there's different techniques, etc one has to know to "master" it. can't just say playing a guitar is plucking a string or a piano is just pressing a key

[Scott R. Brown]

Scott, IMO the teacher can only show the door to the student and and it's up to the student to enter and develop the kung fu. and actually, things are quite simple to know, but mastering them is what takes effort and where the "deep end" is. one needs a sifu to show them the way, but after that it's up to the student. it's true simple instruction of 5 minutes or so can save years, and that's the sifu's job. the masters of the old days trained in this way as well, students trained and if the sifu notices something, he might point it out. there's nothing mysterious or complicated here, just levels and levels of training so it all depends on what you're looking for. also, hendrik was discussing the WCK technology and not about fighting.

Hi theo,

I agree with most of your post,some I disagree with. WCK is a martial art first and foremost, the philosophy is merely an afterthought or attachment, so to speak.

It is a basic principle of all arts. The art develops through desire, need and practical application/use over time. THEN, practitioners go back and investigate WHY what they do works. Technical understanding FOLLOWS the development of an art. That means an art, not just a martial art, but any art, is found to be efficient and effective FIRST and then the reason why it works is investigated afterwards. This technical investigation may indeed improve ones understanding and ability with any specific art, however as with all things in life, it is also a double edged sword. When the study of any art becomes over technical, it kills the art. It is immaterial that I understand the physics of a somersault, when performing one. A scientist who studies the technical aspects of a somersault cannot necessarily perform a good one, much less an excellent one. The one who can perform an excellent one is the one who practices the somersault over and over again for year after year. THAT is why these practices are called ARTS. Knowing the technical aspects may indeed help one perform a better somersault, but an over preoccupation with the technical aspects will also hinder ones progress. This is because one must develop an "inner sense" about it. You basically, FEEL the correct way to do it. No amount of instruction or technical discourse or technical knowledge will teach you the feeling. You must develop it yourself over time.

WCK and all martial arts were developed for fighting. However, over time many have developed, refined, and created out of thin air concepts that have over complicate simple principles. This is not just a characteristic of WCK, it is very common for many arts, not just martial arts either, but other arts too. When something simple is over-complicated the heart and soul are squeezed out it.

[Scott R. Brown]

Since you agree to Scot; then why dont you ask him to teach you in details all the Hua Jin stuffs here. and I would like to see how Scot can do it better then me. Go a head Scot.

Thank you for your permission Hendrik, what would I do without your permission?:rolleyes:

I would first do two things. One is get rid of the Chinese terms and use English. This is America after all and there is no reason to use Chinese terms unless one wishes to perpetuate the idea of special/secret/mysterious knowledge. Secondly, I would stop using parlor tricks in order to demonstrate the generation of force, redirection of force, dissolving of force, etc. principles!

While standing with someone pushing on your chest may be good for beginning a conversation and impressing the naïve and impressionable, it does nothing to prepare one for a “real world” fight. After all the study of technical aspects of any art are of no value if they do not make you a better fighter. Parlor tricks will not help one apply the principles in a fight. In fact, if one does not practice in a dynamic and unpredictable environment, all their special parlor tricks will have no value or meaning, because you will be laid up in the hospital wondering what went wrong with your application of the fancy principles when you should have been punching and kicking your opponent from the start.

Anything can look mysterious and special under a controlled circumstance. Anything can look awe inspiring when you load the system with a prearranged pattern of behavior. When an instructor has you stand there and push on him here while he does this in return he is controlling the environment of the interaction and therefore the outcome. It is a set up from the get go. If it isn’t demonstrated in a dynamic and unpredictable situation, it is meaningless in terms of “real life” self-defense. So, with theo, you should have started with your prearranged stance in order to demonstrate the principles, then allowed him to challenge you in sparring with no holds barred in order to establish your principles’ real world application. However, within a class students are loathe to embarrass their instructor by moving outside the prescribed, prearranged and allowed movements, so it is doubtful he would have truly challenged you in order to demonstrate the flaws in your principles. So, if an instructor can only demonstrate his principles within a controlled environment and cannot respond spontaneously to the unpredictable, what he is teaching is merely a parlor trick for the impressionable and naïve.

At first I considered going through this whole thread to correct your errors of communication, but it became clear that it would be very tedious and boring, not only for me to do, but for anyone wishing to read it. Also, a number of other posters have responded to you effectively while you have merely ignored their salient points in order to perpetuate your own delusion. So, instead I will do the same thing you have done when addressing many of the questions you have been asked, I will refer you to the 10 years or so of postings I have made on the subject on this BB. Go and find them yourself!

For those interested in learning your legendary skills that have no real world application, I would recommend avoiding it like the plague until after you have learned to effectively defend yourself in various environments against various types of opponents.

Suffice it to say, all one need do is to practice the basics repeatedly over time and the body will respond naturally on its own. Physical force is generated from the rear foot and moves up through the body like a wave. The power is increased by the twisting movement of the hips, and shoulders. DO NOT punch with the arms. The straightening of the arm is the least power generating movement of the body when punching.

For internal power, forget it! It is a myth; it is just a different application of physical power. Avoid becoming preoccupied with it. That is not to say the mind is not involved in ones ability to generate power. The easiest way to describe it is to let intellectualization go. Don’t think about it and the body will respond naturally to your intent. This is after one has learned to apply the basics effectively however. One must start out thinking about the movements in order to establish a correct basis of each movement, but after the body has internalized/habituated the movements, empty the mind of preconceived ideas and thoughts and allow the body to respond naturally to the attacks. Hit real things like various kinds of bags under varying circumstances as well as hitting real people in real unpredictable sparring situations.

The rest will come on its own over time! And in the end you won't be all that impressed with it all because there is no mystery or secret involved. it is simply the body learning to move in the most efficient manner through practice.:);)

If there are any questions, I will be happy to be more specific according to the question asked!:)

[t_niehoff]

It is a basic principle of all arts. The art develops through desire, need and practical application/use over time. THEN, practitioners go back and investigate WHY what they do works. Technical understanding FOLLOWS the development of an art. That means an art, not just a martial art, but any art, is found to be efficient and effective FIRST and then the reason why it works is investigated afterwards. This technical investigation may indeed improve ones understanding and ability with any specific art, however as with all things in life, it is also a double edged sword. When the study of any art becomes over technical, it kills the art.


Very good insight.

"Understanding" follows skill. And your level of "understanding" mirrors your skill level (the better skilled understand what they are DOING better than the lesser skilled).



It is immaterial that I understand the physics of a somersault, when performing one. A scientist who studies the technical aspects of a somersault cannot necessarily perform a good one, much less an excellent one. The one who can perform an excellent one is the one who practices the somersault over and over again for year after year. THAT is why these practices are called ARTS. Knowing the technical aspects may indeed help one perform a better somersault, but an over preoccupation with the technical aspects will also hinder ones progress. This is because one must develop an "inner sense" about it. You basically, FEEL the correct way to do it. No amount of instruction or technical discourse or technical knowledge will teach you the feeling. You must develop it yourself over time.


And how do you develop the ability to do a somersault? By practicing doing a somersault. Not by not practicing a somersault. From that you -- as you correctly point out -- develop a FEEL FOR DOING IT.



WCK and all martial arts were developed for fighting. However, over time many have developed, refined, and created out of thin air concepts that have over complicate simple principles. This is not just a characteristic of WCK, it is very common for many arts, not just martial arts either, but other arts too. When something simple is over-complicated the heart and soul are squeezed out it.

In the MAs, when you stop doing realistic training, you can't help but go "off course". It is realistic training (sparring/fighting) that keeps you on course.

Very good post.

[YouKnowWho]

I am talking the art of WCK here not fighting. So, please not off track the subject.

The art of WCK is not fighting? :confused:


ask him to teach you in details all the Hua Jin stuffs here.
I don't believe you can teach anybody how to reach to the level of Hua Jin. When you are there, you are there. When you are not there, there is no use to talk about it.

[taai gihk yahn]

I am talking the art of WCK here not fighting. So, please not off track the subject.

when did the world turn upside down? I must have missed that...

[Hendrik]

1, Who cares about Permission? The term permission has never come in my mind until I read it here.

2, After all this long post and you still didnt tell us anything about Hua Jin.





Thank you for your permission Hendrik, what would I do without your permission?:rolleyes:

I would first do two things. One is get rid of the Chinese terms and use English. This is America after all and there is no reason to use Chinese terms unless one wishes to perpetuate the idea of special/secret/mysterious knowledge. Secondly, I would stop using parlor tricks in order to demonstrate the generation of force, redirection of force, dissolving of force, etc. principles!

While standing with someone pushing on your chest may be good for beginning a conversation and impressing the naïve and impressionable, it does nothing to prepare one for a “real world” fight. After all the study of technical aspects of any art are of no value if they do not make you a better fighter. Parlor tricks will not help one apply the principles in a fight. In fact, if one does not practice in a dynamic and unpredictable environment, all their special parlor tricks will have no value or meaning, because you will be laid up in the hospital wondering what went wrong with your application of the fancy principles when you should have been punching and kicking your opponent from the start.

Anything can look mysterious and special under a controlled circumstance. Anything can look awe inspiring when you load the system with a prearranged pattern of behavior. When an instructor has you stand there and push on him here while he does this in return he is controlling the environment of the interaction and therefore the outcome. It is a set up from the get go. If it isn’t demonstrated in a dynamic and unpredictable situation, it is meaningless in terms of “real life” self-defense. So, with theo, you should have started with your prearranged stance in order to demonstrate the principles, then allowed him to challenge you in sparring with no holds barred in order to establish your principles’ real world application. However, within a class students are loathe to embarrass their instructor by moving outside the prescribed, prearranged and allowed movements, so it is doubtful he would have truly challenged you in order to demonstrate the flaws in your principles. So, if an instructor can only demonstrate his principles within a controlled environment and cannot respond spontaneously to the unpredictable, what he is teaching is merely a parlor trick for the impressionable and naïve.

At first I considered going through this whole thread to correct your errors of communication, but it became clear that it would be very tedious and boring, not only for me to do, but for anyone wishing to read it. Also, a number of other posters have responded to you effectively while you have merely ignored their salient points in order to perpetuate your own delusion. So, instead I will do the same thing you have done when addressing many of the questions you have been asked, I will refer you to the 10 years or so of postings I have made on the subject on this BB. Go and find them yourself!

For those interested in learning your legendary skills that have no real world application, I would recommend avoiding it like the plague until after you have learned to effectively defend yourself in various environments against various types of opponents.

Suffice it to say, all one need do is to practice the basics repeatedly over time and the body will respond naturally on its own. Physical force is generated from the rear foot and moves up through the body like a wave. The power is increased by the twisting movement of the hips, and shoulders. DO NOT punch with the arms. The straightening of the arm is the least power generating movement of the body when punching.

For internal power, forget it! It is a myth; it is just a different application of physical power. Avoid becoming preoccupied with it. That is not to say the mind is not involved in ones ability to generate power. The easiest way to describe it is to let intellectualization go. Don’t think about it and the body will respond naturally to your intent. This is after one has learned to apply the basics effectively however. One must start out thinking about the movements in order to establish a correct basis of each movement, but after the body has internalized/habituated the movements, empty the mind of preconceived ideas and thoughts and allow the body to respond naturally to the attacks. Hit real things like various kinds of bags under varying circumstances as well as hitting real people in real unpredictable sparring situations.

The rest will come on its own over time! And in the end you won't be all that impressed with it all because there is no mystery or secret involved. it is simply the body learning to move in the most efficient manner through practice.:);)

If there are any questions, I will be happy to be more specific according to the question asked!:)

[Scott R. Brown]

I also told you to look for my posts over the past 10 years if you want to know what I have to say about it. Can't you read? Or are you reading without comprehending?

I have written copiously upon the topic in the past. I have made my opinion very clear over the years what I think about these types of demonstrations and have described and explained what is occurring during them in detailed, simple terms. I have explained what is occurring during demonstrations like the one you performed with theo. I have described what occurs, how it occurs, why it occurs and and how to disrupt the process using simple movements. That is, neutralize and counter your little display.

While it is simple to explain and demonstrate how it works, it takes a little practice for one to learn to neutralize it without having someone help by pointing out what to do.

The reason you are unable to explain the process in simple and clear terms is because you are still a novice after all your years of training. You have yet to fully grasp the underlying principles. You may be able to do it, but you do not understand the physical process that occurs. This you made clear when KFF asked you simple questions you were not able to answer. You do not even understand the details of what you are doing well enough to explain them to another person. Your explanations are obtuse and general because you do not fully understand the process yourself. If you fully understood what you were doing you would be able to explain what is occurring in a simple manner.

I can train a relative beginner to overcome and completely neutralize your little charade in an afternoon! A more experienced practitioner can learn to do it in 5 minutes or less.

[Hendrik]

I am asking for GOD and you keep answering ABOUT GOD but NOT GOD.

Just tell the world you dont know GOD disregard of 100000 years you could have your opinions about GOD.





I also told you to look for my posts over the past 10 years if you want to know what I have to say about it. Can't you read? Or are you reading without comprehending?

I have written copiously upon the topic in the past. I have made my opinion very clear over the years what I think about these types of demonstrations and have described and explained what is occurring during them in detailed, simple terms. I have explained what is occurring during demonstrations like the one you performed with theo. I have described what occurs, how it occurs, why it occurs and and how to disrupt the process using simple movements. That is, neutralize and counter your little display.

While it is simple to explain and demonstrate how it works, it takes a little practice for one to learn to neutralize it without having someone help by pointing out what to do.

The reason you are unable to explain the process in simple and clear terms is because you are still a novice after all your years of training. You have yet to fully grasp the underlying principles. You may be able to do it, but you do not understand the physical process that occurs. This you made clear when KFF asked you simple questions you were not able to answer. You do not even understand the details of what you are doing well enough to explain them to another person. Your explanations are obtuse and general because you do not fully understand the process yourself. If you fully understood what you were doing you would be able to explain what is occurring in a simple manner.

I can train a relative beginner to overcome and completely neutralize your little charade in an afternoon! A more experienced practitioner can learn to do it in 5 minutes or less.

[Hendrik]

when did the world turn upside down? I must have missed that...


How can you missed anything you have no idea ?
The world of Chinese always as it is for thousand of years, only it is not what you think you think.


Go a head translate it.

善用兵者，修道而保法，故能為勝敗之政。
是故勝兵先勝而後求戰 -----《孫子兵法》形篇第四

[taai gihk yahn]

How can you missed anything you have no idea ?
The world of Chinese always as it is for thousand of years, only it is not what you think you think.


Go a head translate it.

善用兵者，修道而保法，故能為勝敗之政。
是故勝兵先勝而後求戰 -----《孫子兵法》形篇第四

back to being ur old passive-aggressive self I see; that's reassuring :)

[taai gihk yahn]

I am asking for GOD and you keep answering ABOUT GOD but NOT GOD.

Just tell the world you dont know GOD disregard of 100000 years you could have your opinions about GOD.

looks like someone spiked the egg-nog a bit too much...

[Scott R. Brown]

Whoa!!!:eek: Slow down there cowboy! Are you slipping back into psychosis now? Please take your meds before you decompensate more! Do we need to call 911 for you?

No one said anything here about God! That is your delusion.

I thought we were speaking about your little charade of a demonstration for theo, and how it may be easily neutralized by understanding some simple underlying principles of the scam you are perpetrating!

I do want to be perfectly clear here however, I am not accusing you of INTENTIONALLY perpetrating a hoax. So far, it appears to me that you simply do not fully understand what you are doing or why it works the way it does.

So try not to completely fall apart! I am always happy to help others, however you may need to empty your cup a bit first, to borrow a trite colloquialism. :)

[Hendrik]

The art of WCK is not fighting? :confused:

WCK is an art.
Fighting is an act of human.

Again, I am talking the art of WCK.





I don't believe you can teach anybody how to reach to the level of Hua Jin. When you are there, you are there. When you are not there, there is no use to talk about it.

You dont believe because your have never seen it. and dont know what it is.

There is no such thing as when you are there you are there. There is a process to make it happen. If one have the process to follow then it has to happen because this is a causal world.



When you are not there, there is no use to talk about it. is true only for those who dont know anything about it and has no process to get there.

[Scott R. Brown]

How can you missed anything you have no idea ?
The world of Chinese always as it is for thousand of years, only it is not what you think you think.


Go a head translate it.

善用兵者，修道而保法，故能為勝敗之政。
是故勝兵先勝而後求戰 -----《孫子兵法》形篇第四

Do we see a bit of racial superiority raising its ugly head here?

[Hendrik]

As usual, another post trying to boost your ego.. Cant you post something different, beside all those "you you and me me" and you are this ...you are that.... old tune? hahaha





Whoa!!!:eek: Slow down there cowboy! Are you slipping back into psychosis now? Please take your meds before you decompensate more! Do we need to call 911 for you?

No one said anything here about God! That is your delusion.

I thought we were speaking about your little charade of a demonstration for theo, and how it may be easily neutralized by understanding some simple underlying principles of the scam you are perpetrating!

I do want to be perfectly clear here however, I am not accusing you of INTENTIONALLY perpetrating a hoax. So far, it appears to me that you simply do not fully understand what you are doing or why it works the way it does.

So try not to completely fall apart! I am always happy to help others, however you may need to empty your cup a bit first, to borrow a trite colloquialism. :)

[Hendrik]

Do we see a bit of racial superiority raising its ugly head here?


Sure, strange is it how come you always sees those EGO, RACIAL SUPERIORITY when others doenst? isnt it indicate something obvious?

[Scott R. Brown]

As usual, another post trying to boost your ego.. Cant you post something different, beside all those "you you and me me" and you are this ...you are that.... old tune? hahaha

You, you , you are the one going psycho partner. You, you, you are the one who brought GOD into the conversation, not me, me, me! :eek:

[Scott R. Brown]

Sure, strange is it how come you always sees those EGO, RACIAL SUPERIORITY when others doenst? isnt it indicate something obvious?

You mean no one BUT YOU, YOU, YOU????

Aren't you the one who implied that only you can understand because it is Chinese and hasn't changed for 10,000,000 years or so and therefore can't be wong.....er....wrong?

[Scott R. Brown]

WCK is an art.
Fighting is an act of human.

WCK is an art SPECIFICALLY designed for FIGHTING, NOT theorizing!!!!

[kung fu fighter]

There is no such thing as when you are there you are there. There is a process to make it happen. If one have the process to follow then it has to happen because this is a causal world.

Hendrik, what is the process?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, what is the process?

Dont ask me.

ask Scot and taai gihk yahn those are the expert butt in here to correct me and you agree with it, isnt it?


Seriously, one needs to know different type of Relax or Loose up before anything serious could starts.

[Hendrik]

WCK is an art SPECIFICALLY designed for FIGHTING, NOT theorizing!!!!

So? do you know WCK? Do you practice WCK? Can you do Wing Chun Inch Jin?

[YouKnowWho]

You dont believe because your have never seen it. and dont know what it is.
You are not me, how can you assume that I have never seen it and don't know about it? What will you feel when others said that you have never seen it and don't know about it? You won't feel good about it and that's for sure. If you don't like others to treat you in certain way, first, you should not treat others that way to start with.

Some people just don't like to talk about it and it doesn't mean that they don't know it.

形意拳有三种练劲的方法,"一是明劲,二是暗劲,三是化劲."

The XingYi system has 3 level of Jin development, the Ming Jin, An Jin, and Hua Jin. Do you train XingYi?

明劲,就是拳中之刚劲

Ming Jin is the hard force.

暗劲,就是拳中之柔劲

An Jin is the soft force.

化劲,就是暗劲练到至柔至顺之极处,也就暗劲之终,化劲之始

Hua Jin is the end of An Jin, The end of An Jin is the beignning of the Hua Jin.

You have to start from Ming Jin, reach to An Jin (this may take 4 to 5 years), and finally reach to Hua Jin. You can't just jump into Hua Jin without following the process.

[Wayfaring]

How can you missed anything you have no idea ?
The world of Chinese always as it is for thousand of years, only it is not what you think you think.


Go a head translate it.

善用兵者，修道而保法，故能為勝敗之政。
是故勝兵先勝而後求戰 -----《孫子兵法》形篇第四

Loose translation:

"Use of soldiers who cultivate and Protection Law, it is for victory or defeat of the government.

Victorious soldiers first victory and then Qiuzhan -----" Art of War "from the fourth chapter"

End translation.

China is not as it is for thousands of years. Now the Communist's kids wear Guess jeans and drink Starbucks.

Oh, and translate.google.com gets you into a close enough neighborhood to keep people from getting too big of a head. :)

[Wayfaring]

You are like a movie or mirror for me. entertainment when it is a movie, mirror when I always could improve.

I remember we used to say things like that back in the third grade too.

"I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you".

Hendrick, thanks. You always bring back the memories.

[Scott R. Brown]

Can you do Wing Chun Inch Jin?

Yes! I can! I can even do 1/2" Jin, and 1/4" Jin and 0 Jin!

AND I can teach others to do it too!

Its not magic, just a simple trick!

[YouKnowWho]

Its not magic, just a simple trick!
You are right. I can also teach my students to do this within 1 minute.

If you are good at An Jin, you don't even need that 1 inch. You can do with 0 inch. The Ming Jin power come from distance (you can see). the An Jin power come from body rotation (you can't see). When your right hand touch your opponent's body (0 inch), if you just pull your left shoulder back, and step forward at the same time, your An Jin will transfer from your left arm, your left shoulder, your back, your right shoulder, and then reach to your right arm. It's just a simply physic and there is no magic in it.

If we can just use simple plain English, our TCMA will be able to earn more respect and not less.

[Scott R. Brown]

You are right. I can also teach my students to do this within 1 minute.

If you are good at An Jin, you don't even need that 1 inch. You can do with 0 inch. The Ming Jin power come from distance (you can see). the An Jin power come from body rotation (you can't see). When your right hand touch your opponent's body (0 inch), if you just pull your left shoulder back, and step forward at the same time, your An Jin will transfer from your left arm, your left shoulder, your back, your right shoulder, and then reach to your right arm. It's just a simply physic and there is no magic in it.

If we can just use simple plain English, our TCMA will be able to earn more respect and not less.

Very nicely put!:)

[Hendrik]

Yes! I can! I can even do 1/2" Jin, and 1/4" Jin and 0 Jin!

AND I can teach others to do it too!

Its not magic, just a simple trick!


is that WCK's Inch Jin or your creation?

[Scott R. Brown]

is that WCK's Inch Jin or your creation?

do you breathe, or is it your own invention?

[Hendrik]

You are right. I can also teach my students to do this within 1 minute.

If you are good at An Jin, you don't even need that 1 inch. You can do with 0 inch. The Ming Jin power come from distance (you can see). the An Jin power come from body rotation (you can't see). When your right hand touch your opponent's body (0 inch), if you just pull your left shoulder back, and step forward at the same time, your An Jin will transfer from your left arm, your left shoulder, your back, your right shoulder, and then reach to your right arm. It's just a simply physic and there is no magic in it.

If we can just use simple plain English, our TCMA will be able to earn more respect and not less.


is that WCK's inch jin or Some Baji hard jin?

how is an An JIn claim to be 0 inch needs to pull shoulder and step forward?

You could train your student to do it within 1 minute, however, that is not what a WCK inch Jin isnt it?

[Hendrik]

Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
is that WCK's Inch Jin or your creation?



do you breathe, or is it your own invention?


Beside playing word game what do you know?

Get real, you are not a WCner, dont practice WCK, and know nothing on WCK inch jin. hahaha

[YouKnowWho]

is that WCK's inch jin or Some Baji hard jin?

how is an An JIn claim to be 0 inch needs to pull shoulder and step forward?

You could train your student to do it within 1 minute, however, that is not what a WCK inch Jin isnt it?
You don't have to step forward. It depends on how you want to define "0 inch". You can define "0 inch" as the striking hand starting from contact. You can also define "0 inch" as your body don't move at all, which I don't think it's even possible. If you watch Bruce Lee demonstrated his inch punch in Long Beach Karate tournament, you can clear see that his body moved forward in that punch.

The An Jin concept is emphasized more in the XingYi system (I also train XingYi) than the Baji system.

[Hendrik]

You don't have to step forward. It depends on how you want to define "0 inch". You can define "0 inch" as the striking hand starting from contact.

You can also define "0 inch" as your body don't move at all, which I don't think it's even possible.

The An Jin concept is emphasized more in the XingYi system (I also train XingYi) than the Baji system.



The conversation is WCK inch jin , very specific and well define in WCK, let's getting not off track.

[YouKnowWho]

The conversation is WCK inch jin , very specific and well define in WCK, let's getting not off track.

The "寸勁(Cun Jin) - inch Jin" is a general TCMA concept. It doesn't belong to any TCMA system. I don't think we should have "style boundary" in mind when we discuss TCMA in general.

The moment that you start to talk about "Hua Jin", you already talk about something more than just the Win Chun style.

I thought you are the person who brought the Er Mei principle into Win Chun system. IMO, it's a good thing and I respect you for that. Cross training and evolution is always a good thing. I assume you will be the last person on earth who may still have "style boundary" in mind. :)

[Scott R. Brown]

Beside playing word game what do you know?

Get real, you are not a WCner, dont practice WCK, and know nothing on WCK inch jin. hahaha


The conversation is WCK inch jin , very specific and well define in WCK, let's getting not off track.

Right Hendrik, everyone plays word games, but you!!!

All you do is play word games. WCK is special in your eyes, there is nothing like it and no one knows anything about it but you and the special chosen few. Your special one inch WCK jin is nothing special. It is simple and anyone can learn it and it won't make you invincible. It is a simple trick of body control. Get over your grandiose concepts of your special WCK. It is not special and you are not special. It is as ordinary and you are as ordinary as everyone else.

I know it is hard to accept, but it is the truth and the truth will set you free! Right now you are trapped within your false image of yourself and WCK, once you accept your ordinariness and the ordinariness of your WCK you can get back to a normal life.

[Hendrik]

The "寸勁(Cun Jin) - inch Jin" is a general TCMA concept. It doesn't belong to any TCMA system. I don't think we should have "style boundary" in mind when we discuss TCMA in general.



One needs to be very specific. Inch Jin in different style of TCMA means different thing.




The moment that you start to talk about "Hua Jin", you already talk about something more than just the Win Chun style.

Nope. Wing Chun has Hua Jin technology. Hua Jin exist in different styles.





I thought you are the person who brought the Er Mei principle into Win Chun.

Nope, not my job. Wing Chun was created with Er Mei technology by the creator.





IMO, it's a good thing. I assume you will be the last person on earth who may have "style boundary" in mind. :)

I have no style boundary, I myself practice a variety of TCMA internal art, however I am very specific in different style's technics/signature. Those doesnt mix, it got to be clear.

[YouKnowWho]

Those doesnt mix, it got to be clear.

How can we not mix our salad, potato, fish, dessert in our stomach? It's our knowledge and skill, we should have freedom to mix it anyway that we like. We should be the master and not the slave of our styles.

[horserider]

Just fast glance at this thread . I do not know about others but stepping and pulling one side to launch other side is not how we do what is being called inch jin

Hand flat on target no stepping no rotation or pulling one shoulder to propel other type of momentum. Ours is demonstrated while standing YGKM Hand flat on target. Then either send target of if serious drop target to ground stance never leaves no twisting of waist or shoulders. No rotation or momentum usage. You can do those things of course but that is something else.

[Hendrik]

All kind of words but not answering the question.

Just say you dont know WCK and WCK's inch jin. is that difficult?
I guess perhaps it is difficult for the person who likes to pretend know it all to tell the truth.




Right Hendrik, everyone plays word games, but you!!!

All you do is play word games. WCK is special in your eyes, there is nothing like it and no one knows anything about it but you and the special chosen few. Your special one inch WCK jin is nothing special. It is simple and anyone can learn it and it won't make you invincible. It is a simple trick of body control. Get over your grandiose concepts of your special WCK. It is not special and you are not special. It is as ordinary and you are as ordinary as everyone else.

I know it is hard to accept, but it is the truth and the truth will set you free! Right now you are trapped within your false image of yourself and WCK, once you accept your ordinariness and the ordinariness of your WCK you can get back to a normal life.

[Vajramusti]

Another thread gone south.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

How can we not mix our salad, potato, fish, dessert in our stomach? It's our knowledge and skill, we should have freedom to mix it anyway that we like. We should be the master and not the slave of our styles.


Honest word, the problem is if one doesnt even be able to handle the very basic, what to mix?

[Hendrik]

Just fast glance at this thread . I do not know about others but stepping and pulling one side to launch other side is not how we do what is being called inch jin

Hand flat on target no stepping no rotation or pulling one shoulder to propel other type of momentum.

Ours is demonstrated while standing YGKM Hand flat on target. Then either send target of if serious drop target to ground stance never leaves no twisting of waist or shoulders. No rotation or momentum usage.

You can do those things of course but that is something else.



Yes, indeed that is WCK's Inch Jin.

[Hendrik]

Some likes to talk big here. Some likes to critics of the Chinese way of training. Some doesnt like to hear Baisi. .......


For me, these people must have never seen the top quality Advance TCMA player.
If things are so simple, then there will be tons of advance TCMA players.

Started from the very basic,
even relax or Loose up has various type, if one is not carefull, one get into a wrong state and will not attained what is suppose to. Not to mention when things get more and more advance. There is no room for fuzzy or confusion....

Even with a good sifu or lots of good sifus' support, one still has to spend lots of time testing and fine tuning one's practice....

That easy? No. like a musician lots of practice, fine tune, before one could have good handling.


Without a sifu to coach one, a good process. Training is almost impossible and hopeless. or cant progress too far. that is a reality.

The other day some ask me SLT stuffs and expect me to tell him the short cut. I told him I did Zhang Zhong for almost two hours a days these days, do you think I will do that if there is short cut?

It is naive to think relax or loose up will do everything. Six directional force vectors concept in the ancient Taiji is called Supporting eight direction and a single feather cannot land. Those are advance level stuffs after one can do proper loose up. layer and layers of details and handling... not that simple at all. But then when one has master it, it is just nature.
Similar to an excellent singer singing is nature, but then how much one has to go through before one reach that nature?


Speak about the most basic Wing Chun YJKYM. everyone think one needs to tilt the tail bone...etc. but does one really know the significant and the result target? Just to be direct, most done it wrong and violating the human body nature, thus end up pulling a reverse gear and get one stuck. See, every part of the body from the chest, back, head, waist, hip.... has a guide line to proper alignment and handling. without get into those stuffs. one is just standing there like a piece of dead wood. perhaps that could give a good training to tense up the muscle, however, travelling internal is certainly not possible. to have the YJKYM to produce the full potential, the reference of silence, breathing, qi flow, physical handling needs to be known. and only then, one could keep track of one's state with those references points.


I post this post because I do feel there is too many "talking experts", that is going to contribute to only confusion.


finally,
Emei Snake engine, very simple, said it in one sentence is " every joints in the body must move in circular path and supporting/echoing each others all together." What secret? NONE.

but even one knows this can one do it? Nope, without all those basic conditioning and training, one still will not be able to even picture it not to mention do it.


I always open up and share to the public, that is because I am concern the art will be gone if not practice. However, I dont like that figthing fighting stuffs. Those are just bad karma generation and cause one even more trouble. I gone through it and I know. Fighting is a macho term but how much the price one needs to pay for that useless macho term? Too much. So, get the advance kung fu under one's belt but dont need those extra macho term and bad karma.

[GlennR]

Some likes to talk big here. Some likes to critics of the Chinese way of training. Some doesnt like to hear Baisi. .......


For me, these people must have never seen the top quality Advance TCMA player.
If things are so simple, then there will be tons of advance TCMA players.

Started from the very basic,
even relax or Loose up has various type, if one is not carefull, one get into a wrong state and will not attained what is suppose to. Not to mention when things get more and more advance. There is no room for fuzzy or confusion....

Even with a good sifu or lots of good sifus' support, one still has to spend lots of time testing and fine tuning one's practice....

That easy? No. like a musician lots of practice, fine tune, before one could have good handling.


Without a sifu to coach one, a good process. Training is almost impossible and hopeless. or cant progress too far. that is a reality.

The other day some ask me SLT stuffs and expect me to tell him the short cut. I told him I did Zhang Zhong for almost two hours a days these days, do you think I will do that if there is short cut?

It is naive to think relax or loose up will do everything. Six directional force vectors concept in the ancient Taiji is called Supporting eight direction and a single feather cannot land. Those are advance level stuffs after one can do proper loose up. layer and layers of details and handling... not that simple at all. But then when one has master it, it is just nature.
Similar to an excellent singer singing is nature, but then how much one has to go through before one reach that nature?


Speak about the most basic Wing Chun YJKYM. everyone think one needs to tilt the tail bone...etc. but does one really know the significant and the result target? Just to be direct, most done it wrong and violating the human body nature, thus end up pulling a reverse gear and get one stuck. See, every part of the body from the chest, back, head, waist, hip.... has a guide line to proper alignment and handling. without get into those stuffs. one is just standing there like a piece of dead wood. perhaps that could give a good training to tense up the muscle, however, travelling internal is certainly not possible. to have the YJKYM to produce the full potential, the reference of silence, breathing, qi flow, physical handling needs to be known. and only then, one could keep track of one's state with those references points.


I post this post because I do feel there is too many "talking experts", that is going to contribute to only confusion.


finally,
Emei Snake engine, very simple, said it in one sentence is " every joints in the body must move in circular path and supporting/echoing each others all together." What secret? NONE.

but even one knows this can one do it? Nope, without all those basic conditioning and training, one still will not be able to even picture it not to mention do it.


I always open up and share to the public, that is because I am concern the art will be gone if not practice. However, I dont like that figthing fighting stuffs. Those are just bad karma generation and cause one even more trouble. I gone through it and I know. Fighting is a macho term but how much the price one needs to pay for that useless macho term? Too much. So, get the advance kung fu under one's belt but dont need those extra macho term and bad karma.



So question for you here...... if i dont learn any of the above are you saying i cant reach a high level of WC???
Looking forawrd to your reply
GlennR

[GlennR]

And one more question..... are you saying i have to "baisai" to an asian WC instructor??

Regards
GlennR

[Scott R. Brown]

All kind of words but not answering the question.

Just say you dont know WCK and WCK's inch jin. is that difficult?
I guess perhaps it is difficult for the person who likes to pretend know it all to tell the truth.

Your version of inch jin is a parlor trick. It cannot be used in a dynamic situation. It has no benefit in the real world other than to mesmerize the naïve and make people like you feel important. Any real fighter, such as a Muay Thai fighter, a boxer, or a MMA with less than a year of training will make mince meat out of you TODAY, RIGHT NOW, even with all your years of internal training.

If you want to make the argument that it is not for fighting, but demonstrates internal/personal development, you just shot that one down today, as you have done many times in past conversations, by demonstrating how fragile your equanimity is when you are challenged by someone willing to address your ignorance.

You throw temper-tantrums, act like a two year old and become demeaning to others when you are repeatedly challenged. This behavior does NOT demonstrate equanimity and maturity, something internal training is presumably meant to develop. It is, however, a demonstration of how all your efforts have taught you nothing, and reveals to others your true character.

You cannot defend your teachings, your art, or your behavior with any meaningful argument. You are a fraud, and what you teach is useless as a martial art and as a form of internal cultivation, at least as demonstrated by you.

Your magic one inch jin, can be performed by any charlatan with practice and I can teach anyone how to defeat it in a very short period of time and not just me, but anyone in on the trick of it can teach someone else to do it. I wouldn't be surprised it Penn and Teller already have demonstrated the fraud behind your little inch jin! Even non-martial artists can learn how to defeat it with ease.

If it is not based upon bio-mechanics then it must work under any condition if it is truly internal power, but it cannot. That means it should be immaterial when, where and how it is used on another person’s body. It should be immaterial how they are standing and how you are standing. It should be immaterial how the hand is held and even how far away you are from the opponent. It should be just as effective against a 350# person as a 100# person. You cannot demonstrate its effectiveness under any of these circumstances.

If you do not realize any of this you are an idiot, if you do realize all of this you are charlatan and a fraud.

I understand you have years of emotional investment in your practice. It is unfortunate someone with a real brain hadn’t taught you the foolishness of your path when you were younger. You wouldn’t have had to waste all these years training for nothing.

If at least if you had learned some equanimity from all your efforts it might have been worth the mistake. But you appear to have even less maturity than even some of the youngest members here.

I truly feel sorry for you!:o

[Scott R. Brown]

Just fast glance at this thread . I do not know about others but stepping and pulling one side to launch other side is not how we do what is being called inch jin

Hand flat on target no stepping no rotation or pulling one shoulder to propel other type of momentum. Ours is demonstrated while standing YGKM Hand flat on target. Then either send target of if serious drop target to ground stance never leaves no twisting of waist or shoulders. No rotation or momentum usage. You can do those things of course but that is something else.

Right! You can make someone fall down without moving in anyway. In your dreams! Good luck with that!

Read everything I just wrote to Hendrik and it goes for you too! Except for the equanimity part, that has yet to be tested appropriately!:rolleyes:

[Scott R. Brown]

Another thread gone south.

joy chaudhuri

It was south to start with!

[theo]

So question for you here...... if i dont learn any of the above are you saying i cant reach a high level of WC???
Looking forawrd to your reply
GlennR

Glenn, you can certainly reach a high level without the above, if you have a process and technology to do it. it's simple, the sifu is there to coach and guide the student in the process to achieve the end result. that's the transmission that takes place, it follows a process, step by step, building on top of each layer. can't do inch jin if your body is not conditioned to do so for example. also, even if one knows the above, they may not reach a high level either. as I have heard, a student who has been shown the door is a million miles away from mastery, and one who doesn't know the door is even further.

[Violent Designs]

popcorn man

[theo]

And one more question..... are you saying i have to "baisai" to an asian WC instructor??

Regards
GlennR

nobody's said anything about that. the fact is, there is a difference in cultural view. we know WCK is a chinese martial art, so that cultural perspective and ideas are what drove its design and development through the years. can't just take all that and brute force it into what we all think is right based on our individual experiences growing up in the modern age. the ancestors had very specific definitions and meanings back then, so what's the point of trying to twist it into something we think is more correct? why not just follow what they said instead?

[GlennR]

Glenn, you can certainly reach a high level without the above, if you have a process and technology to do it. it's simple, the sifu is there to coach and guide the student in the process to achieve the end result. that's the transmission that takes place, it follows a process, step by step, building on top of each layer. can't do inch jin if your body is not conditioned to do so for example. also, even if one knows the above, they may not reach a high level either. as I have heard, a student who has been shown the door is a million miles away from mastery, and one who doesn't know the door is even further.

No offense Theo.. but your going down the same path here as Hendrick. Slightly patronising with a "so i have heard" from another source at the end to give it some meat.
Simple question.... will Hendricks "path of enlightenment" make me a better WC (notice i said WC) fighter

Glenn

[Scott R. Brown]

nobody's said anything about that. the fact is, there is a difference in cultural view. we know WCK is a chinese martial art, so that cultural perspective and ideas are what drove its design and development through the years. can't just take all that and brute force it into what we all think is right based on our individual experiences growing up in the modern age. the ancestors had very specific definitions and meanings back then, so what's the point of trying to twist it into something we think is more correct? why not just follow what they said instead?

theo,

The problem with that kind of thinking is that it presumes that the "ancients" knew better than we do today. That has not been established. In fact history has taught us that the ancients, didn't know much about anything we know today. If you recall your Chinese history, the ancient Taoists used to give The Yellow Emperor mercury pills that were designed to prolong his life and perhaps give him eternal life. All they did was hasten his death and probably make it very painful.

The error in your thinking is the "presumption" that they knew more than we do today. They didn't!

There is an old Japanese anecdote:

Once upon a time two young Samurai decided to set out to travel around testing their skills and seeking knowledgeable teachers. They agreed to meet at a certain spot in 10 years time to compare their adventures and share with each other what they had learned.

When the time came, the two met and began conversing about their adventures and the things they had learned. One of the Samurai talked about how he had met a teacher whom he had spent the past 10 years with, and through diligent study over that time, he had acquired the ability to jump across the canal they were strolling beside. He then proceeded to demonstrate his ability to his friend.

Not impressed, his friend approached a nearby ferryman and for a few pennies was taken across the canal.

The point being that for a few pennies the one Samurai could accomplish the same feat his friend has spent 10 years of study to accomplish, that is, cross a canal.

There are better things to spend your time on in life than learning impractical and useless skills. Aside from the fact it may simply just be enjoyable, if you think you are going to learn something special, mysterious and rare and gain special abilities, you will be sadly mistaken.

[GlennR]

nobody's said anything about that. the fact is, there is a difference in cultural view. we know WCK is a chinese martial art, so that cultural perspective and ideas are what drove its design and development through the years. can't just take all that and brute force it into what we all think is right based on our individual experiences growing up in the modern age. the ancestors had very specific definitions and meanings back then, so what's the point of trying to twist it into something we think is more correct? why not just follow what they said instead?

Actually they (he) did Theo.
Hendricks constant inference that one needs to "baisai" to fuly understand WC is ever present
I have no problem with the chinese cultural influence in regards to WC, in fact i embrace and celebrate it, but i cant stand the "my way is the only way" from a self promoting master of false humility who in my my own opinion basically gets racist to get his point across
Regards
GlennR

[Hendrik]

So question for you here...... if i dont learn any of the above are you saying i cant reach a high level of WC???
Looking forawrd to your reply
GlennR


Without that one might still be a good fighter at young age.

however, the body and fighting power will not sustain at older age; and one will not reach the advance state of using Jin and flow of WCK. Due to lack of mind-body transformation that is a reality.

[Hendrik]

And one more question..... are you saying i have to "baisai" to an asian WC instructor??

Regards
GlennR



Nope. Baisi to any WC who has true mastering of the art.

[Hendrik]

No offense Theo.. but your going down the same path here as Hendrick. Slightly patronising with a "so i have heard" from another source at the end to give it some meat.
Simple question.... will Hendricks "path of enlightenment" make me a better WC (notice i said WC) fighter

Glenn



1, the path I show is the path of advance internal TCMA, it is what it is.

2, the path is for attaining one's advance potential beyond general fighter concept of today.

[Hendrik]

Actually they (he) did Theo.
Hendricks constant inference that one needs to "baisai" to fuly understand WC is ever present
I have no problem with the chinese cultural influence in regards to WC, in fact i embrace and celebrate it,

but i cant stand the "my way is the only way" from a self promoting master of false humility who in my my own opinion basically gets racist to get his point across
Regards
GlennR


Read all of my previous posts.

Baisi is not a cultural stuffs.
Baisi means to go learn from some one who has mastered the art. Baisi means admit one needs help and get the help.

Simple and clear stuffs as I said it again and again, if one doesnt know then go and learn from one who knows. How is one suppose to learn an art or mastering an art without a teacher?





why get into my way is the only way....
Why get into all the racist ...etc? why makes learning from others soooo difficult?
Why all those off mark thought filling one's mind when What I said is "if you dont know and need to learn, then you need a teacher?" Perhaps one needs to check what kind of mind set is within one to have all those unconscious emotion to resist and against getting help.

Perhaps it is one who think those ----my way is the only way, racist.... ---is the one who has those mind set in their mind; similar to a person who just finished watching horror movie will think of all kind of ghost at night.

[t_niehoff]

theo,

The problem with that kind of thinking is that it presumes that the "ancients" knew better than we do today. That has not been established. In fact history has taught us that the ancients, didn't know much about anything we know today. If you recall your Chinese history, the ancient Taoists used to give The Yellow Emperor mercury pills that were designed to prolong his life and perhaps give him eternal life. All they did was hasten his death and probably make it very painful.

The error in your thinking is the "presumption" that they knew more than we do today. They didn't!


Quite right!

And significantly, today we know, from both science and from sport, what sort of training methods work best for developing skill, how to best condition yourself, etc.



There are better things to spend your time on in life than learning impractical and useless skills. Aside from the fact it may simply just be enjoyable, if you think you are going to learn something special, mysterious and rare and gain special abilities, you will be sadly mistaken.

Some people enjoy Dungeons and Dragons.

[t_niehoff]

1, the path I show is the path of advance internal TCMA, it is what it is.


That path is bullsh1t. Name one -- ONE -- decent fighter that "advance internal TCMA" has produced. Exactly. Zero.

[Hendrik]

The problem with that kind of thinking is that it presumes that the "ancients" knew better than we do today. That has not been established. In fact history has taught us that the ancients, didn't know much about anything we know today.


The error in your thinking is the "presumption" that they knew more than we do today. They didn't!





you seem not be able to comprehend what I post and react with all kind of thought according to your own thinking, as it is always off topic.


I talk technology and its process and examine the process and technology, no pre assumption.

[t_niehoff]

Some likes to talk big here. Some likes to critics of the Chinese way of training.


Because that sort of training doesn't produce good results. This is why there are no decent fighters in the world today that use it.



Some doesnt like to hear Baisi. .......

For me, these people must have never seen the top quality Advance TCMA player.
If things are so simple, then there will be tons of advance TCMA players.


The problem is there are NO "advance TCMA players." There are only pretenders. An "advanced martial artist", regardless of their style, should have high level fighting skill -- after all, that is what they are training for, right? So, Hendrik, who has these "advanced fighting skills"? No one.

What YOU mean by "advance TCMA players" are people who can do parlor tricks, who can do things when they are not under the stress of fighting and mistakenly believe, as you do, that this means they can do that same sh1t when they fight.



Started from the very basic,
even relax or Loose up has various type, if one is not carefull, one get into a wrong state and will not attained what is suppose to. Not to mention when things get more and more advance. There is no room for fuzzy or confusion....

Even with a good sifu or lots of good sifus' support, one still has to spend lots of time testing and fine tuning one's practice....

That easy? No. like a musician lots of practice, fine tune, before one could have good handling.

Without a sifu to coach one, a good process. Training is almost impossible and hopeless. or cant progress too far. that is a reality.

The other day some ask me SLT stuffs and expect me to tell him the short cut. I told him I did Zhang Zhong for almost two hours a days these days, do you think I will do that if there is short cut?

It is naive to think relax or loose up will do everything. Six directional force vectors concept in the ancient Taiji is called Supporting eight direction and a single feather cannot land. Those are advance level stuffs after one can do proper loose up. layer and layers of details and handling... not that simple at all. But then when one has master it, it is just nature.
Similar to an excellent singer singing is nature, but then how much one has to go through before one reach that nature?


All complete bullsh1t.



Speak about the most basic Wing Chun YJKYM. everyone think one needs to tilt the tail bone...etc. but does one really know the significant and the result target? Just to be direct, most done it wrong and violating the human body nature, thus end up pulling a reverse gear and get one stuck. See, every part of the body from the chest, back, head, waist, hip.... has a guide line to proper alignment and handling. without get into those stuffs. one is just standing there like a piece of dead wood. perhaps that could give a good training to tense up the muscle, however, travelling internal is certainly not possible. to have the YJKYM to produce the full potential, the reference of silence, breathing, qi flow, physical handling needs to be known. and only then, one could keep track of one's state with those references points.


Fantasy.



I post this post because I do feel there is too many "talking experts", that is going to contribute to only confusion.


The only confusion comes from believing this nonsense is real.



finally,
Emei Snake engine, very simple, said it in one sentence is " every joints in the body must move in circular path and supporting/echoing each others all together." What secret? NONE.

but even one knows this can one do it? Nope, without all those basic conditioning and training, one still will not be able to even picture it not to mention do it.


And where is ANYONE who can use this marvelous stuff successfully in fighting? Exactly. No one can.



I always open up and share to the public, that is because I am concern the art will be gone if not practice. However, I dont like that figthing fighting stuffs.


WCK is a fighting method. Everything in WCK is validated ONLY by and through fighting. Otherwise, it is fantasy fu. If you don't like fighting, then don't fight. No one is forcing you to practice a martial art.

And your whole karma-thing is complete bullsh1t. It is your lame excuse for not training. People go to gyms and spar/fight all the time, every day. They do it voluntarily, and as a sport -- for fun. They fight, compete for fun. There is no bad karma in doing that. No more than there is bad karma in playing a game of basketball.

[Hendrik]

Right! You can make someone fall down without moving in anyway. In your dreams! Good luck with that!

Read everything I just wrote to Hendrik and it goes for you too! Except for the equanimity part, that has yet to be tested appropriately!:rolleyes:



How intelligent is a person who keeps commenting anything that person have never seen and know?

[t_niehoff]

I talk technology and its process and examine the process and technology, no pre assumption.

The only way to judge these things is by the results of the training. And since WCK and your "advance internaql MA" are fighting methods, the results can only be seen/determined by fighting/sparring. So, please point me to anyone with good results in fighting that uses this "advance internal martial art" training.

[t_niehoff]

How intelligent is a person who keeps commenting anything that person have never seen and know?

I haven't seen Bigfoot but I know it doesn't exist!

[Hendrik]

That path is bullsh1t. Name one -- ONE -- decent fighter that "advance internal TCMA" has produced. Exactly. Zero.


Your fighter idea is not much then movie star idolism.

[Hendrik]

The only way to judge these things is by the results of the training. And since WCK and your "advance internaql MA" are fighting methods, the results can only be seen/determined by fighting/sparring.

So, please point me to anyone with good results in fighting that uses this "advance internal martial art" training.


any one practice the technology get a better health and better application body/mind/momentum handling ability. That is forsue, any one will get that result be it in the past, present, or future.

[taai gihk yahn]

any one practice the technology get a better health

how do you substantiate that claim?

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1069347]Because that sort of training doesn't produce good results. This is why there are no decent fighters in the world today that use it.


Because you dont know what it is.





The problem is there are NO "advance TCMA players." There are only pretenders. An "advanced martial artist", regardless of their style, should have high level fighting skill -- after all, that is what they are training for, right? So, Hendrik, who has these "advanced fighting skills"? No one.


That is your irrational generalization assumption and accusation.





WCK is a fighting method. Everything in WCK is validated ONLY by and through fighting. Otherwise, it is fantasy fu. If you don't like fighting, then don't fight. No one is forcing you to practice a martial art.


You always like to think you are the spoke man of WCK isnt it?





And your whole karma-thing is complete bullsh1t. It is your lame excuse for not training. People go to gyms and spar/fight all the time, every day. They do it voluntarily, and as a sport -- for fun. They fight, compete for fun. There is no bad karma in doing that. No more than there is bad karma in playing a game of basketball.


Karma means cause/effect and attraction.

Those who keep thinking fighting will get into fight neccesary or not. you like to have a fighting life that is your decision.

[Hendrik]

how do you substantiate that claim?


Why do you called yourself Taai gihk yahn?

[taai gihk yahn]

Why do you called yourself Taai gihk yahn?
that is irrelevant to the question I asked, which I thought was a reasonable one; how does one substantiate claims of improved health? it's not an unreasonable inquiry;

why can't you answer the question? do you not wish to? or are you unable to?

[Hendrik]

that is irrelevant to the question I asked, which I thought was a reasonable one; how does one substantiate claims of improved health? it's not an unreasonable inquiry;

why can't you answer the question? do you not wish to? or are you unable to?


or I expect the person who pick a nick name as Taai gihk Yahn to be able to answer the question for himself?

[taai gihk yahn]

or I expect the person who pick a nick name as Taai gihk Yahn to be able to answer the question for himself?

I can answer "the question" for myself; I am curious as to your perspective on it, since you are making the claim;

[Hendrik]

I can answer "the question" for myself; I am curious as to your perspective on it, since you are making the claim;

I dont making the claim, i am just describe the experience for many people in the past and present.

[Scott R. Brown]

you seem not be able to comprehend what I post and react with all kind of thought according to your own thinking, as it is always off topic.


I talk technology and its process and examine the process and technology, no pre assumption.

No, you talk fantasy. I am talking technology. Technology that can and has demonstratated YOUR technology to be fantasy.


How intelligent is a person who keeps commenting anything that person have never seen and know?

Look in the mirror and let me know!


any one practice the technology get a better health and better application body/mind/momentum handling ability. That is forsue, any one will get that result be it in the past, present, or future.

Anyone practice walking, weight training, dancing, boxing, fencing, etc. Get better health and better applicayion body/mind/momentum handling ability too, so what?

That too is for sure past, present, future!!


Why do you called yourself Taai gihk yahn?

I expect anyone asked a question to answer the question asked of them first and not to change the subject in order to cover their own ignorance!


or I expect the person who pick a nick name as Taai gihk Yahn to be able to answer the question for himself?

Quit changing the subject!


I dont making the claim, i am just describe the experience for many people in the past and present.

Yes you have made claims. You also haven't answered any questions asked of yoy, just like you never do!

You are a charlatan and a fraud!

[Hendrik]

[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1069364]No, you talk fantasy. I am talking technology.

Sure, check all of your posts in this thread, beside words there is no technology?

[t_niehoff]

Because you dont know what it is.


So, you can't name anyone. Why is it that if I ask the same question of any sport fighting art, boxing, wrestling, judo, MT, etc. -- provide me the name of some fighter that this training has produced -- they can do it easily? And in large numbers. Yet, you can't name ONE "advanced internal martial artist" that can fight.

The results don't lie. The evidence is in.



That is your irrational generalization assumption and accusation.


So, refute it -- provide the names of ANY "advanced internal martial artists" that have proven fighting skills. If that training produces good results, then where are they? Hmmm?



You always like to think you are the spoke man of WCK isnt it?


No, I am the anti-bullsh1t spokesman! LOL! Although I think Scott is giving me a run for the money. :)



Karma means cause/effect and attraction.

Those who keep thinking fighting will get into fight neccesary or not. you like to have a fighting life that is your decision.

If you don't want to get in the pool, why "practice" a swimming art? To just play-pretend that you "understand" swimming? Do you feel better about yourself because you believe that you are doing "advanced internal traditional chinese swimming"? LOL! By never getting wet?

And then trying to use karma -- if I get in the pool and swim, I will attract swimming to me!!! ROFLOL! No, all you will see is that all your fantasies will sink. ;)