Forms training is only good for performing Forms!!!

[MightyB]

And most TCMA forms people spend time trying to perfect the boring @ss forms! I say go for the grandiose. The bigger the better. After the basics of basic training forms - forms all become redundant anyway (only people with 10 or more years TCMA experience can make comments on redundancy).

So why all the secrecy, why all the waiting to give students the so called advanced sets? I say give 'em the good ones while they're young enough to still make 'em look good when they're performing them!


Now suck on that :mad: :) ;)

[ginosifu]

Forms are just another tool in the kung fu teacher's list of different ways to improve his students skill. There are many ways to teach MA and you do not have to have forms. However, most kung fu teachers use forms in their curriculum's. If you do not like forms.... this ok, just don't hate on them. I practiced forms for over 20 years and both myself and my students are competent fighters.

ginosifu

[David Jamieson]

And most TCMA forms people spend time trying to perfect the boring @ss forms! I say go for the grandiose. The bigger the better. After the basics of basic training forms - forms all become redundant anyway (only people with 10 or more years TCMA experience can make comments on redundancy).

So why all the secrecy, why all the waiting to give students the so called advanced sets? I say give 'em the good ones while they're young enough to still make 'em look good when they're performing them!


Now suck on that :mad: :) ;)

Forms are usually taught progressively.
Plainly speaking, beginners are often physically incapable of doing advanced sets and must therefore first be equipped with training that will develop the attributes and ability required to perform the advanced sets.

[MightyB]

Forms are usually taught progressively.
Plainly speaking, beginners are often physically incapable of doing advanced sets and must therefore first be equipped with training that will develop the attributes and ability required to perform the advanced sets.

Basics can be developed in line drills - watch the Chinese Wushu players.

Here's my take:

I often find that one of two things happen with the traditional model: A. The teacher isn't as good as he believes himself to be, or B. The teacher is underestimating himself and the abilities of the student.

Now take a student of average intelligence and physical ability. It's much better to introduce that person to advanced movement earlier in their career and earlier in their life. Why? So they have time and the physical capacity to develop those illusory traits that we're supposed to be after.

[MightyB]

Forms are just another tool in the kung fu teacher's list of different ways to improve his students skill. There are many ways to teach MA and you do not have to have forms. However, most kung fu teachers use forms in their curriculum's. If you do not like forms.... this ok, just don't hate on them. I practiced forms for over 20 years and both myself and my students are competent fighters.

ginosifu

I'm trolling a bit - but then I'm not - so don't take this thread too seriously ;)

What I'm hoping to do is challenge the traditional notion of progressing through forms. To me forms are an expression of movement, and taken to the extreme, they can be quite fun. Now I do agree that you do have to develop some basic attributes to be able to perform the higher level forms. These being primarily balance, coordination, flexibility, endurance, and leg strength. That is the primary role of the "beginner" forms and line drills. But, what happens is we require students to stay at these so called beginner and intermediate levels for far too long. I believe that once the primary attributes are developed to a minor level of competence - we should then teach that person at least one "high level" form.

Thoughts and discussion? (No MMA please)

[MasterKiller]

Now take a student of average intelligence and physical ability. It's much better to introduce that person to advanced movement earlier in their career and earlier in their life. Why? So they have time and the physical capacity to develop those illusory traits that we're supposed to be after.

I disagree. Basics need to be firmly grasped before you move on to more complicated techniques.

No point in showing rubber guard to someone who can't even do a triangle, afterall.

[lkfmdc]

Forms were developed within a certain context

No video cameras, most of the people involved with semi to down right illiterate, a teacher often had a small group he trained semi privately

Forms were ways to get students to do the same techniques over and over again.

Forms were a way to practice if you didn't have a lot of class mates to work with

Forms kept certain techniques and idea in "archive" because if you weren't literate you couldn't write this stuff down

Later on, forms were a great (easy) way to run a commercial school

The more forms, the longer you had to stay (and pay) to learn the "whole system", you could also hang the "advanced" set over them like a carrot

In even more recent times, the "performance" of forms took importance. Now people spend time "looking good" and the real point is often lost entirely

I don't hate forms, I just think they are outdated, I don't have strong feelings about outdated technology, I just understand there is newer and better ways to do things

[TenTigers]

"Now take a student of average intelligence and physical ability. It's much better to introduce that person to advanced movement earlier in their career and earlier in their life. Why? So they have time and the physical capacity to develop those illusory traits that we're supposed to be after."


not true. there is a certain quality of movement that only comes with understanding oneself-which only comes with time spent. Teaching someone a more complex, or rather a move with subtle complexities, requires this time/foundation.
Sure, you can start them early, but it will still take time to develop.
Watch beginners do Tai-Chi. Then watch them after ten years in.
Watch what happens when a teacher gives a beginner in Karate a more advanced form for competition. It's pathetic. The student has not "ripened," and the form is obviously more advanced than the student's skills.
Certain things require time, and continuoius effort, in order to develop.
Hense the term,"Gung-Fu."

[MightyB]

I disagree. Basics need to be firmly grasped before you move on to more complicated techniques.


I can see your point, but why? Meaning - if I can get someone flexible enough to kick high and they have good energy and can jump and land safely - shouldn't it be easier to get them to do barrel rolls, hand/head springs, kip ups, butterfly kicks etc while they're young? So shouldn't the pressure be on me to get them the competence needed to perform the advanced set?

[MightyB]

there is a certain quality of movement that only comes with understanding oneself-which only comes with time spent. Teaching someone a more complex, or rather a move with subtle complexities, requires this time/foundation.
Sure, you can start them early, but it will still take time to develop.


I agree, but - to start someone on these "complex" movements after 5, 6, 7 (arbitrary number) of years of training is doing that person a disservice IMO. It would be far better to teach them those complex movements after about 6 months to a year so that they have more years to perfect those movements. It would be interesting to compare a 7 year student who's worked on a complex movement for 6 years against a 7 year student who's worked on a complex movement for 6 months.


A fine wine develops with time but first you have to bottle the grape juice.

[MightyB]

Later on, forms were a great (easy) way to run a commercial school

The more forms, the longer you had to stay (and pay) to learn the "whole system", you could also hang the "advanced" set over them like a carrot

In even more recent times, the "performance" of forms took importance. Now people spend time "looking good" and the real point is often lost entirely


I think this is most often the case.

[Lucas]

if you teach someone the applications, starting a newer student on an advanced form isnt that big of a stretch.

they will 'grow into it'. at first they wont peform it as well as someone who learned all the forms in the cirriculum, but they can probably be up to speed on the advanced set, time line wise, before they would had they learned every single form before it.

it does really depends on the person though, if they are physically coordinated and possess adequate attributes then there shouldnt be a problem. they also cant be stupid.

'combat' forms arent that special. beginner sets can certainly bring you along progressively to the more advanced material, but it isnt entirely necessary in most cases. especially if the student has prior MA experience.

example, if fedor all of a sudden decided to learn kungfu and decided to go with...lets say hung gar. do you think he would not be capable of learning an advanced set right away? of course he could.

[bawang]

theres no such thing as an advanced set. its just to make money from white people.

[ginosifu]

Your kinda thinking the wrong way. Anyone (beginner and advanced) can do jumping or flying kicks or "Advanced" moves right away. However, to give a beginner this material is a mistake I made years ago. Beginners do not have the basic concepts perfected, which lead to improper execution and or Injury. I wanted all my students to have everything as quickly they could. It ends up, if they don't have the basics perfected it leads to problems with every other form or technique they do afterward. What happens next is that all there stuff is junk and it is hard to fix later on.

ginosifu

[David Jamieson]

Your kinda thinking the wrong way. Anyone (beginner and advanced) can do jumping or flying kicks or "Advanced" moves right away. However, to give a beginner this material is a mistake I made years ago. Beginners do not have the basic concepts perfected, which lead to improper execution and or Injury. I wanted all my students to have everything as quickly they could. It ends up, if they don't have the basics perfected it leads to problems with every other form or technique they do afterward. What happens next is that all there stuff is junk and it is hard to fix later on.

ginosifu

I agree with this 100%...again. lol

Also, it's worthy of note that some people do not learn the sets of a system until after they have basics, line drills , structure development as well as strength and endurance training underway.

Some systems have very few sets, some as few as 2 really with weapons sets on top of that. I only really practice a few sets from the many I have learned. Quite frankly, the reiterative quality of sets is not lost on me and I at this stage have moved on to that which is beyond set training.

I still enjoy practicing a set or two now and then. Feels good, provides exercise and well, the body is better for it afterwards.

[ginosifu]

theres no such thing as an advanced set. its just to make money from white people.

I disagree !

To perform a set like Hung Gar's Iron Wire takes a couple of years of training of the basics before you will be able to "Do It Right". You will not be able to achieve the benefits of the form, because you lack the skills to do it properly.

ginosifu

[Lucas]

beginner in MA or just beginner in style

if you take a new student who has 15 year experience, is he looked at as incompetent as a 15 year old new to MA in general? how do you decide to progress someone who has prior experience, maybe in something like muay thai or judo?

[MightyB]

Beginners do not have the basic concepts perfected, which lead to improper execution and or Injury.

ginosifu

I can agree - but I don't think there's a good way to define when a person is not a "beginner" based on an arbitrary number of forms. Some people display the needed attributes very early. I think there's a failure on the part of the teacher if he/she doesn't recognize when that happens based on a false notion of tradition. One way of looking at it is in systems where there are a lot of forms, you often see some difference in how schools define what sets are "advanced".

[ginosifu]

beginner in MA or just beginner in style

if you take a new student who has 15 year experience, is he looked at as incompetent as a 15 year old new to MA in general?

Yes and no:

Different styles of MA have different theories. 15 years of Kenpo gives you a big problem in kung fu. How you move, how you strike is way different.

Example:

Some styles pivot on the balls of their foot. Some styles pivot on their heels. If you have been pivoting on the ball of your foot for 15 years and your new style pivots on the heel, you probably need to start over and get the basics of the new system.

ginosifu

[sanjuro_ronin]

Forms, by their typical definition, are a set of pre-arranged moves done in a predetermined fashion.
They serve a purpose and historically that purpose was, like Ross mentioned, to catalogue techniuues, principles the core of the system.

You will find forms in every MA to one degree or another, but Asian MA tend to "*****" the notion of continuing to do prearranged forms even with the basic concept is grasped and progression is better accomplished in a "free style manner" as in the case of Most sport combat systems or armed combat systems.

Let us using boxing as an example:
From early one Boxing had prearranged forms, these form became more like prearragned drills like the ones we have today, once the boxer has grasped the basics he moves on to "freestyle" form called shadowboxing.

Western and many eastern forms of armed and unarmed combat follow this mode.

[bawang]

I disagree !

To perform a set like Hung Gar's Iron Wire takes a couple of years of training of the basics before you will be able to "Do It Right". You will not be able to achieve the benefits of the form, because you lack the skills to do it properly.

ginosifu

i dont know anything about iron wire so ill take ur word. but other than that theres nothing special about any other advanced form. its all the same.

[SPJ]

I ususally do single move drills or dan cao shou.

or combo of a few moves strung together.


longer forms have special focus or theme.

forms = single move, combo move strung together.

you may take forms apart and practice each move or posture over and over.

:)

[MightyB]

Yes and no:

Different styles of MA have different theories. 15 years of Kenpo gives you a big problem in kung fu. How you move, how you strike is way different.

Example:

Some styles pivot on the balls of their foot. Some styles pivot on their heels. If you have been pivoting on the ball of your foot for 15 years and your new style pivots on the heel, you probably need to start over and get the basics of the new system.

ginosifu

Food for thought...

[Lucas]

gotcha. i remember one time we were practicing flying sidekick on the heavy bag, i watched someone tear their acl doing that....i suppose they werent ready for it. they had 5+ years on top of me and I fly like batman. so i suppose that the principles can sometimes be more important than the physical qualifications.

[David Jamieson]

i dont know anything about iron wire so ill take ur word. but other than that theres nothing special about any other advanced form. its all the same.

In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.

are you saying that a beginner can just pick this up without the progression towards it whereby he / she develops the required strength, flexibility and plain old ability to do techs like this?

Cause, I"m loling until I am sighing about that... :p

as for the iron thread set of hung kuen, it contains a lot of so called "internal" work that demands guidance and the shape of it alone is not enough to benefit from the set in the intended manner.

[ginosifu]

I can agree - but I don't think there's a good way to define when a person is not a "beginner" based on an arbitrary number of forms. Some people display the needed attributes very early. I think there's a failure on the part of the teacher if he/she doesn't recognize when that happens based on a false notion of tradition. One way of looking at it is in systems where there are a lot of forms, you often see some difference in how schools define what sets are "advanced".

I have given students with exceptional skills, "Higher Level" forms for tournaments. If they do not compete, why do they need this material? To show off that they can do it? If the argument is for tournament competitions.... yes to an extent we can give higher level forms, but only to those with exceptional skills.

ginosifu

[goju]

In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.
.

and what combat use does this move serve?

[MightyB]

In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.

are you saying that a beginner can just pick this up without the progression towards it whereby he / she develops the required strength, flexibility and plain old ability to do techs like this?

Cause, I"m loling until I am sighing about that... :p

Yes - if you take a person with moderate to high athletic ability... yes. But first you'd need to train the splits until they can do them comfortably, and then you need to train the cartwheel. You can take a varsity high school cheer leader and train her this technique tomorrow if you'd like and you'd see that Yes, she can indeed be taught this movement and have no prior MA training.

This begs a different question: Why is there a need to do the splits after doing a one-handed cartwheel?

[bawang]

In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.

are you saying that a beginner can just pick this up without the progression towards it whereby he / she develops the required strength, flexibility and plain old ability to do techs like this?

Cause, I"m loling until I am sighing about that... :p

as for the iron thread set of hung kuen, it contains a lot of so called "internal" work that demands guidance and the shape of it alone is not enough to benefit from the set in the intended manner.

that depends on what u think is "advanced". i think acrobatic movements doesnt equal advanced fighting concepts. flippin and spinnin is hard to do, but has nothing to do with fighting.

[Lucas]

In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.

are you saying that a beginner can just pick this up without the progression towards it whereby he / she develops the required strength, flexibility and plain old ability to do techs like this?

Cause, I"m loling until I am sighing about that... :p

as for the iron thread set of hung kuen, it contains a lot of so called "internal" work that demands guidance and the shape of it alone is not enough to benefit from the set in the intended manner.

i agree with what you are saying about advanced physical techniques. but that in itself can be another can of worms. there are those that would say, you never need 1 hand cartwheel to splits.

however i recently saw a judo turney where an escape was made via 1 arm cartwheel :D

[goju]

This begs a different question: Why is there a need to do the splits after doing a one-handed cartwheel?


dodge the shuriken with the cartwheel drop down to splits to duck the sword strike to head:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that only forms that can be classified as advanced are those that require more physical skill than those classified as basic.
That doesn't make them "advanced" in an esoteric way, just advanced in a physical way.
of course some people can do advanced forms in months and others need years to do a basic one.
It's all relevant.
TKD has advanced forms that require mulitple high kicks from the same leg with no lowering and then a jumping spinning kick from the base leg without lowering the raised one.
Advanced obviously, but nothing that anyone with a decent skill level can't do.
We had a guy that was a gymnast that did advanced forms better than guys that had been doing TKD for decades and he was only in it for a couple of years.

[sanjuro_ronin]

dodge the shuriken with the cartwheel drop down to splits to duck the sword strike to head:D

And teabagging the guy after you cartwheeled kick'd him !

[MightyB]

why do they need this material? To show off that they can do it? If the argument is for tournament competitions.... yes to an extent we can give higher level forms, but only to those with exceptional skills.

ginosifu

I have no way of proving this, but I believe that once you get passed the "carrot" that Ross was talking about...

...that "Showing Off" is the true purpose of the high-level forms of historical TCMA.

[David Jamieson]

i agree with what you are saying about advanced physical techniques. but that in itself can be another can of worms. there are those that would say, you never need 1 hand cartwheel to splits.

however i recently saw a judo turney where an escape was made via 1 arm cartwheel :D

there is attacks in the cartwheel to splits move.

a cartwheel into splits is an advanced cheerleading move really, but when you include attacks into it, it is a whole different enchilada.

I've seen cartwheel kicks used in mma with good results!Cartwheel kick KO for the win! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3QPaQgTr1o)Imagine if you could include the splits and a strike to the cajones following the reverse axe kick across the face? Now that's some advanced sh1t man!

[Iron_Eagle_76]

In BSL, the 9th set (Lin Wan) is considered advanced and contains a one handed cartwheel technique that lands into splits.

are you saying that a beginner can just pick this up without the progression towards it whereby he / she develops the required strength, flexibility and plain old ability to do techs like this?

Cause, I"m loling until I am sighing about that... :p

as for the iron thread set of hung kuen, it contains a lot of so called "internal" work that demands guidance and the shape of it alone is not enough to benefit from the set in the intended manner.

David, let me ask you this, when is the last time in a fight or even sparring, that you did a one handed cartwheel and landed in a split, and if you did, what purpose did it serve?

My major problem with forms is that many of the techniques are just not practical and simply there for show. Maybe it does give them a Kung Fu "flavor" so to speak but aside from breaking a sweat, what is the point? To be honest, it doesn't take a skilled martial artist to do that, it takes a skilled gymnast, because that is basically what that is.

****, I guess everyone else beat me to that!

[goju]

And teabagging the guy after you cartwheeled kick'd him !

you a merciless man sanjuro, a merciless man

[bawang]

I have no way of proving this, but I believe that once you get passed the "carrot" that Ross was talking about...

...that "Showing Off" is the true purpose of the high-level forms of historical TCMA.


its for street performance for money not showing off. its also the lowest position in old chinese martial arts hierarchy.

[David Jamieson]

David, let me ask you this, when is the last time in a fight or even sparring, that you did a one handed cartwheel and landed in a split, and if you did, what purpose did it serve?

My major problem with forms is that many of the techniques are just not practical and simply there for show. Maybe it does give them a Kung Fu "flavor" so to speak but aside from breaking a sweat, what is the point? To be honest, it doesn't take a skilled martial artist to do that, it takes a skilled gymnast, because that is basically what that is.

I never said it was practical and I was speaking to it in context to what is in forms, what is advanced and why advanced sets are not taught to beginners.

there's plenty of material that I cannot effectively or have not had opportunity to try. I think that's less important than pondering whether or not I need it or can count on it.

I just posted a video of a guy in an mma fight who cartwheeled a KO to illustrate my point. If the only validity you will give my point is based on what I do, then when is the last time you landed on the moon and took pictures of your fellow astronaut?

It takes body balance to be good at any athletics whatsoever. there are many "gymnastic" moves in martial arts from all cultures.

Anyway, I'm just pointing out that it is there.

[lkfmdc]

Forms are also a mixture of

1) actual combat techniques

2) conditioning , flexibility, balance, and yogic like exercises

3) performance including street performance

Again, with time, people have forgotten that some of the things in sets are not/were never designed to be fighting applicable

[bawang]

flowery performance forms were low level and for making money. today theyre called advanced forms. ESPECIALLY weapon forms. in "advanced" weapon forms its normal to have up to 50 or 70% of the moves flower twirling.

for example most of the tiger fork forms in southern kung fu have only 5 to 6 real techniques in the entire form.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I never said it was practical and I was speaking to it in context to what is in forms, what is advanced and why advanced sets are not taught to beginners.

there's plenty of material that I cannot effectively or have not had opportunity to try. I think that's less important than pondering whether or not I need it or can count on it.

I just posted a video of a guy in an mma fight who cartwheeled a KO to illustrate my point. If the only validity you will give my point is based on what I do, then when is the last time you landed on the moon and took pictures of your fellow astronaut?

It takes body balance to be good at any athletics whatsoever. there are many "gymnastic" moves in martial arts from all cultures.

Anyway, I'm just pointing out that it is there.

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1570/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1570R-133481.jpg

[ginosifu]

I have no way of proving this, but I believe that once you get passed the "carrot" that Ross was talking about...

...that "Showing Off" is the true purpose of the high-level forms of historical TCMA.

yes this maybe true??? However, I do not portray them as such nor do do I teach them as such. They are just training tools to me. If someone wants strictly to compete or they want only forms to show off, I usually point them in the direction of one of those McDojos.

ginosifu

[MightyB]

yes this maybe true??? However, I do not portray them as such nor do do I teach them as such. They are just training tools to me. If someone wants strictly to compete or they want only forms to show off, I usually point them in the direction of one of those McDojos.

ginosifu

Why on earth would you do that?

[MightyB]

That's misplaced Wude - why chase away over achievers? Type A personalities with a penchance for flair. Winners, Jocks, Athletes. These are the people you should want. Take their enthusiasm and use it...

[Lucas]

and then shape them into an army of un killable cybornetic kungfu assassins....

[David Jamieson]

http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1570/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1570R-133481.jpg

clearly a hoax!

[MightyB]

and then shape them into an army of un killable cybornetic kungfu assassins....

F**K Yeah! http://www.kennypowers.com/

[ginosifu]

That's misplaced Wude - why chase away over achievers? Type A personalities with a penchance for flair. Winners, Jocks, Athletes. These are the people you should want. Take their enthusiasm and use it...

Don't get wrong ... I have competed and some of my students like to compete. However, this a once in a while thing. Our main focus is self defense and health. There is nothing wrong with it, just not my gig.

To compete or not compete does not change my martial code.

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

when I first started learning Hung-Ga, we learned all the pillar sets (Gung Ji Fook Fu, Fu Hok Seurng Ying, Ng Ying, Tiet Sien) for Black Sash. For many years, I taught the same way. I now "reserve" Ng Ying Kuen and for second Black.
Not because I'm dangling a carrott, but I found that I was following and creating the "forms collector's" mentality. The reality is, none of those people really had a firm grasp on the forms they did. There are techniques and movements in FHSYK (the softer, short bridging and spiraling )that really require more time and drilling to "get."
I would rather my students focused on getting the forms and the associated technique more solid before heaping more forms on them.

[Lucas]

when I first started learning Hung-Ga, we learned all the pillar sets (Gung Ji Fook Fu, Fu Hok Seurng Ying, Ng Ying, Tiet Sien) for Black Sash. For many years, I taught the same way. I now "reserve" Ng Ying Kuen and for second Black.
Not because I'm dangling a carrott, but I found that I was following and creating the "forms collector's" mentality. The reality is, none of those people really had a firm grasp on the forms they did. There are techniques and movements in FHSYK (the softer, short bridging and spiraling )that really require more time and drilling to "get."
I would rather my students focused on getting the forms and the associated technique more solid before heaping more forms on them.

would you be able to get someone ready for the second sash sets with solo and partner drills, sparring, and application work? not saying that should be done, im just curious. if yes what do you feel the difference in time frame it would take to be 'ready'?

[sanjuro_ronin]

when I first started learning Hung-Ga, we learned all the pillar sets (Gung Ji Fook Fu, Fu Hok Seurng Ying, Ng Ying, Tiet Sien) for Black Sash. For many years, I taught the same way. I now "reserve" Ng Ying Kuen and for second Black.
Not because I'm dangling a carrott, but I found that I was following and creating the "forms collector's" mentality. The reality is, none of those people really had a firm grasp on the forms they did. There are techniques and movements in FHSYK (the softer, short bridging and spiraling )that really require more time and drilling to "get."
I would rather my students focused on getting the forms and the associated technique more solid before heaping more forms on them.

FHSYK is a system unto itself.

[taai gihk yahn]

FHSYK is a system unto itself.

what would a glorified, kickboxing knucklehead who never even stu...

...

oh never mind; it's nowhere nearly as fun as it used to be...:mad:

[sanjuro_ronin]

what would a glorified, kickboxing knucklehead who never even stu...

...

oh never mind; it's nowhere nearly as fun as it used to be...:mad:

BWWAHHHH !!!
*****.

Fact is, I teach 3 forms ( yes for those that want to learn I still do teach them).
A beginner form, intermediate and advanced.
Not because the move are so hard or complicate or special or hidden, but because it takes some experience and self-knowledge to get the most of of them.

[TenTigers]

would you be able to get someone ready for the second sash sets with solo and partner drills, sparring, and application work? not saying that should be done, im just curious. if yes what do you feel the difference in time frame it would take to be 'ready'?
absolutely.
That's the beauty of styles like Hung-Ga. On it's most basic level, punching, smashing grabbing and breaking, it is an effective fighting art. You can take just that stuff and go on your way. In fact, many never went beyond that level, and that's fine. But, it also has more refined movement and techniques that one can develop, if one wanted to invest the time. It's not like it takes ten years to learn how to fight.
I happen to teach textbook sets because I intend to pass the system on. Each person I teach is a potential teacher, perhaps not in my schools, maybe just through their own family, or whatever. The forms allow the system to be passed down from one generation to the next, intact.
oh yeah, and I enjoy forms!

[teetsao]

"the sword polisher's record" pg.90-104.

[sanjuro_ronin]

oh yeah, and I enjoy forms!

I enjoy form too



http://smokingifs.com/uploads/Sexy-girl-rubs-her-ass.gif

[MightyB]

I enjoy form too



http://smokingifs.com/uploads/Sexy-girl-rubs-her-ass.gif

I could watch that all day.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://media.picfor.me/001CBB7/881_5-%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%B2%D1%83%D1%88%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BA%D0%B0-butt-ass-girl-sexy-wallpaper-wallpapers-widescreen-Desktop-free-wallpaper-1600x1200-nice-sexy-wallpaper-popo-girl-ass-babes-culo-tanga-Thong-hot-woman-Photography-girls-lingerie-KOON-erotica-ASSSSSSS-1-popki-non-nude-panties-eroticas-BEST-X-karna-keiths-pics-artluckart-upskirt-36598-booty-deano1-beauty-underwear-nils-Sexy-bums-Bilder-Gs-pic-awesome-xxx-hot-sexy-Sexy-3-pic-Exciting-erotic-Sensuel-Women-Bums-girlz-melek-kad%C4%B1n-legs-MASKAL-Bubble-Butts-httpwwwpicformeensaveimg6578-back-nice-bottoms-butts-VARIETY-Sexy-Pictures-m-A%C5%9Fk%C4%B1m-ED%C4%B0T-razno-Pics-for-use-my-album-Love-Soft-Sexy-Linduras-PMac11-Private-album-popos-DUPY-Misc-lace-ona-lust-MORENNA-slipped-halos-benjen2-hut-nice-ass-Mounds_large.jpg

[Frost]

lkfmdc 12-09-2010 06:21 PM

Forms are also a mixture of

1) actual combat techniques

2) conditioning , flexibility, balance, and yogic like exercises

3) performance including street performance

Again, with time, people have forgotten that some of the things in sets are not/were never designed to be fighting applicable

This is part of the problem I have with forms, the techniques in them might be valid, they might very well work, but as they have been passed on how do we know what the original intent was for the movement? if you train with 2 different sifu chances are you will see 2 different examples of what the movement was for, its not a great way to pass on a style especially in this day and age

And on the other extreme you get the form Nazis who say the hand must be this shape, at this angle and move in this path and then don’t actually use the movement in sparring anyway

If forms were a good way in the past to catalogue techniques, and introduce strength and conditioning work, are they still useful with all the advances we have made in the realm of strength and conditioning and technological advances made that allow us to capture movement ?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

This is part of the problem I have with forms, the techniques in them might be valid, they might very well work, but as they have been passed on how do we know what the original intent was for the movement? if you train with 2 different sifu chances are you will see 2 different examples of what the movement was for, its not a great way to pass on a style especially in this day and age

And on the other extreme you get the form Nazis who say the hand must be this shape, at this angle and move in this path and then don’t actually use the movement in sparring anyway

If forms were a good way in the past to catalogue techniques, and introduce strength and conditioning work, are they still useful with all the advances we have made in the realm of strength and conditioning and technological advances made that allow us to capture movement ?

I can attest to this. In Pai Lum, there are so many different forms and versions of the forms there is really no way to tell who has the right one. It seems Pai would teach pretty much everyone differently, one black belt would learn a form one way while someone else learned it a different way. Considering how Pai Lum is a newer system and has so many discrepancies I can see how older systems can get mixed up as well. On a side note, many of Pai Lum's forms are Hung Gar forms, very *******ized as some Hung Gar guys have told me.:D

[ginosifu]

This is part of the problem I have with forms, the techniques in them might be valid, they might very well work, but as they have been passed on how do we know what the original intent was for the movement? if you train with 2 different sifu chances are you will see 2 different examples of what the movement was for, its not a great way to pass on a style especially in this day and age

Frost:

This is one of those yes and no kind of answers. Yes you are right that different teachers have different visions on what the applications should be.

However it was done that way on purpose. Every Form has a Theory behind it. The theory can not be defined by a single application. The form gives you a dictionary of techniques and a desgnated way to flow for the style. It is up to each person to devise applications according to personal flavor. Each application should follow principles and theories of the system but gives each person freedom to devise applications that suit the needs of the situation or individual.

ginosifu

[MightyB]

5 pages of discussion about TCMA methodology that for the most part stayed on-topic. Holy cr@p - that's got to be a new record!

[MightyB]

5 pages of discussion about TCMA methodology that for the most part stayed on-topic. Holy cr@p - that's got to be a new record!

The discussion has actually led me to this conclusion which I may be off base. But the answer seems to be "it depends on the student". For my own approach for when I decide to teach approximately 9 years from now (figure 45 would be a good time to stop being selfish with the MA training) I'll probably show 4 to 5 "basic" level forms to a newbie. I figure that would be enough to evaluate their strengths and then I could determine an "advanced" form that they could learn for competition. I'm still up in the air about how much the forms training effects the development of the illusory traits. While I do believe in some aspects of internal development, I don't believe forms accumulation is the answer and I definitely still feel that fight training is done outside of the realm of forms.

[KC Elbows]

In response to Frost's comment about the same form an two or more teachers seeing it as different techs.

I've got tons of footage of the one empty hand form in our system. I've actually tracked alterations in our line, plus, since there aren't a ton of people doing the style, I know the main variations. Some techs I was taught, I don't believe are correct, some are, but on the whole, there are a lot more similarities than differences.

The way I work the problem is not by reverting to "this is how our camp does it" but by testing in usage(pressure a must) over a long time the different techs, and deferring to the ones that work most reliably in the framework of the system, while still examining others. Many apps that teachers decide are what the tech is about are really things that another tech in the form does much better: in such a case, I don't use such a thing.

I think one thing that has muddied the water is the idea of form as movements vs. form as techniques. People try to find lots of uses for one move, on the idea that this aids spontaneity and is the style. It poses a problem. Response time being important, choosing from one hundred movements that each have 4 apps seems less efficient than choosing from one hundred that have specific apps, and, in all honesty, pretty much all the old training manuals I've seen relate systems that have moves that are specific applications. I can't think of one exception.

I think a style's principles are personified by its techniques, that the principles are there to give the framework for using the techniques, and that one best personifies the principles by entraining the techniques under pressure, then using those notes to adjust the form and understand the form. I posit that understanding the form this way, one tends to find that they will not often be altering the form from a tradition, and more often seeing what the tradition is, and seeing certain practitioners who know move X's core as in line with that tradition on that tech, and those who practice less applicable versions as not strong on that, but perhaps strong on other techniques and closer to the tradition.

To use a bjj example, if bjj people only trained principles such as position before submission, etc, and eschewed specific apps, they'd be far less effective on the ground. If they did the techs but did not see the framework that the principles give, they'd be the krav maga of the ground, and again, less effective. Techniques need principles as a framework for engagement, principles need techniques for decisive and effective execution, alone they are half the equation, imo.

[ginosifu]

I don't believe forms accumulation is the answer and I definitely still feel that fight training is done outside of the realm of forms.

MightyB:

There are many Maxums or statements in Kung Fu. I have my own personal statement that I follow:

If you want to be good at Running, then Run! If you want to be good at Weight Lifting, Then Lift! If you want to be good at Fighting, then Fight!

When thinking about fighting and self defense put some common sense into your training. Let's look at a Proffessional Boxer's training regime, 60%-70% of their training consists of fighting drills, sparring, ring time etc etc. the other 30%-40% is supplemental training such as; Running, jumping rope, shadow boxing etc etc.

The same is true for Kung Fu training. If you want fighting as your focus then you need to fight. Forms alone will not make you a good fighter. So look at your goals and if fighting is the most important, then make 60%-70% of your training Fighting drills, sparring, ring time etc etc. The rest should be supplemental training such as forms / solo drills / etc etc.

However, don't make the mistake of training so hard in fighting that you become a shooting star. Too much fighting all the time leads to injury and you will shorten your Martial Arts career with nagging injuries that will not let you do anything at all. Use common sense in your training and you will be able to take your Kung Fu into your golden years.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

This is part of the problem I have with forms, the techniques in them might be valid, they might very well work, but as they have been passed on how do we know what the original intent was for the movement?

That's a good question. Form can give you some "principle". It's up to you to map that "abstract principle" into many "concrete techniques". A teacher can help his students on this. But students still need to have chance to test their IQ levels.

For example, the 1st solo form in SC is "斜打(Xie Dai) - diagonal strike" as shown in this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nIOI7DRs44

There is nothing fancy about it. It's just like a boxing cross except it's used as a vertical palm strike (SC form #1 can be used as a cross, SC form #2 can be used as a hook, and SC form #3 can be used as an upper cut). Here are the first 5 applications that can come out of that simple form (there are more concrete techniques than those 5).

1. To break a clinch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgtGzYbOgwQ

2. To set up a throw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERcj4KyV4Zk

3. Inner hook.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ptr3sLWXVY

4. Front cut.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dutqbmf3xKU

5. Knee seize (single leg shooting).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzEnT5pKvik

If a simple move such as "斜打(Xie Dai) - diagonal strike" can record so much valuable information in it, you can image that a 108 moves long form can record at least 500 useful techniques. Without forms, how will you be able to help your students to remember all those moves?

Technique 1, technique 2, technique 3, ... technique 499, technique 500, ... ?

[lkfmdc]

If a man tells you he is thirsty do you

1. Give him a drink
2. shoot a hose at him
3. Hold his head under the water in the bath
4. Throw him in the middle of a large lake

A lot of TCMA practice does not break down and isolate skills, it just throws stuff at people and many drown

[Lucas]

I teach him how to urinate into a cup, so that he may never have to be thirsty again!

[YouKnowWho]

If a man tells you he is thirsty do you

1. Give him a drink
2. shoot a hose at him
3. Hold his head under the water in the bath
4. Throw him in the middle of a large lake

A lot of TCMA practice does not break down and isolate skills, it just throws stuff at people and many drown

That's one extream. The other extream is a teacher explains everything in detail and not give his students any chance to use their brains. That won't be good either. No matter how detail that your math teacher help you to go through a math problem in the class, it's not the same as you solve you math homework all by yourself. The follow move that after a kick and puch, you bring your leg back behind you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W81ccS0i4cY

I asked my Longfist teacher about the application for that. My Longfist teacher told me it can be used to kick someone's leg when he is behind. My question was:

- How do I know if I can hit my opponent's leg if I don't look back?
- Why the original form designer didn't add a head turn there?

That question had bothered me for many years. When I started to train the Chinese throwing art, I suddently realized if I have a "head lock" on my opponent, I don't have to look back and I'll know exactly where my opponent's legs are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyKObGWz6dU

Somertime it may be good to put a "question mark" in your students head and force them to figure out no matter how long that may take.

[Lucas]

do you have any active student right now YKW?

[YouKnowWho]

I only have 2 students that I teach at home. One guy also trains in MMA gym for BJJ, MT, Sambo, boxing, ... which is prefect OK with me.

[Lucas]

Oh, are they your kids? Are you open to taking new students at all?

[YouKnowWho]

Ther are not my kids. Both are adults. One guy had been with me for over 30 years. The other guy had been with me for 8 years. I had others students. They just come and go so I won't count on them. Yes, I do take new students.

[Lucas]

how long do you think you will live there? :D

[YouKnowWho]

I'll live in Texas for 6 months (winter) and I'll live in California for 6 months (summer).

[Lucas]

I see. I ask because I plan to move in the next year or two to somewhere more warm, i am in the nw now, and want to have teachers accepting students in mind before I choose where to move. If I decide to move to cali you may get a PM from me in the future to request a meeting.

Thanks for letting me know.

[Lee Chiang Po]

And most TCMA forms people spend time trying to perfect the boring @ss forms! I say go for the grandiose. The bigger the better. After the basics of basic training forms - forms all become redundant anyway (only people with 10 or more years TCMA experience can make comments on redundancy).

So why all the secrecy, why all the waiting to give students the so called advanced sets? I say give 'em the good ones while they're young enough to still make 'em look good when they're performing them!


Now suck on that :mad: :) ;)

How else would you practice or train your gung fu? That is all forms are, just one man sets where you can train your body to do things that are somewhat otherwise difficult. Without doing that you must have another method of training this, otherwise you would look silly while falling and stumbling around trying to do it. You can watch someone do a thing, and you might even be able to do it too, but the reality is that you probably will not be able to do it without a great deal or at least some physical training. Unless of course you don't do gung fu, and in this case it would be silly for you to be doing forms. It is like anything else. The more you do it, the better you get at it. Forms are just one simple way of doing it so you can get better at doing it.

[bawang]

My Longfist teacher told me it can be used to kick someone's leg when he is behind.
he is wrong