Questions for TCMA teachers.

[Lucas]

If forms are part of your curriculum, do you require everyone to learn the same forms? If a man (or woman I suppose :p ) comes in to your school and is interested in learning cma for defense and possibly fight competition but is turned off by the idea of forms, are you willing to make an exception from your normal curriculum for that individual, or do you turn them away? If they express at the introduction that they do not seek to carry on as a teacher to the masses, and are only there to learn the martial for themselves, are they viewed in a different light?

the main reason I ask is this:

Through our mariad of discussions we have had here as a community, its become KFMO common knowledge that;

1. forms are a relatively recent addition in the grand scheme of CMA.

2. forms are not needed to become a fighter.

3. forms are generally for a 'lineage bearer' or for someone to carry on the style. everything within the style can be transmitted through other fashions for a personal martial artist.

Could it be argued that to turn that individual away is non traditional based soley on the fact that they are not interested in form work?

Final question:

Does any teacher here that use forms as a tool for teaching have any students that fit this criteria and is learning your style through methods not generally standard of your school, and if so, is there any noticable lack or gain the general development in your experienced relating to prior/current students who have gone through the standard process.

Thanks

:D

[KC Elbows]

What, and lose all that revenue from my demo team of internal form players, The Molasses Tigers? They're like the harlem globetrotters of slow forms, but book in advance, this is the busy season at retirement homes.

Oddly, all the people I'm teaching now want to know the form, but I wouldn't be averse to teaching someone more based on techs and principles, most of the classes are more that, anyway.

[Lucas]

I'm really up and down with forms. In my experience some forms, once learned, can totally be dropped unless you personally like doing them. However thats rarely the case in many cma schools. Group forms are a great example.

I understand the reasoning behind doing forms as a group, as well as having people who can perform that set with ease, power, and grace being a good example for those less skilled at that set. Generally though its everyone every time for all group sets.

seriously i dont want to spend the next 20 minutes doing something im good at, and dont even want to do anymore, with people who suck at it. id rather be working pads, sparring, working a set i am actually developing, or some other aspect of training that i feel would put my time to better use.

its almost like you are pressured into being some aspect of instructional tool, which i do understand...to an extent. I live in the USA. in my country we worship money as god and dole out our life in portions of funds....should i be giving you my time and life to be your tool?

/tangent

[EarthDragon]

If forms are part of your curriculum, do you require everyone to learn the same forms? If a man (or woman I suppose ) comes in to your school and is interested in learning cma for defense and possibly fight competition but is turned off by the idea of forms, are you willing to make an exception from your normal curriculum for that individual, or do you turn them away? If they express at the introduction that they do not seek to carry on as a teacher to the masses, and are only there to learn the martial for themselves, are they viewed in a different light?

great question, we have 5 forms and they encompass the applications that are needed to use mantis and some of ts techniques.

I would not make an execption its the way I teach, if they want to fight only I put them in our MMA class, but I would never turn anyone who honstly wants to learn away ever. But forms are good for what they are nothing more. I dont hid behind them as some schools do, again we only have 5



Does any teacher here that use forms as a tool for teaching have any students that fit this criteria and is learning your style through methods not generally standard of your school, and if so, is there any noticable lack or gain the general development in your experienced relating to prior/current students who have gone through the standard process.

yes i do I currently teach 4 black belts from other styles 2 from TKD, karate and KF and they didnt want to learn our way, they just want to be better MA/fighters and use what they knew in a better way,
so i crossed hands with everyone of them the first class. This showed me thier weaknesses as well as the chance to drop them on their arsses and show them i was worthy of thier money and time.
All the moves and counters that I did was from our system except for one guy who went to the ground them i had to submit.

After that i could prety much tell them how to train and they listened. If you have a BB and walk into a school and get beat pretty quickly and easily chances are your going to train how ever that guy has....

[Lucas]

if they want to fight only i put them in our MMA class,




is your mma class comprised of mantis?

[ginosifu]

If they have no desire for forms I would direct to my Shuai Chiao / San Shou class. This is sorta irrelevant to me because most average (99%) people walking thru my door have no clue what a class structure is like. Very few know what they want. Of the few that know... SC / SS are for the peeps that strictly want sport or street fighting without the forms.

ginosifu

[Lucas]

If they have no desire for forms I would direct to my Shuai Chiao / San Shou class. This is sorta irrelevant to me because most average (99%) people walking thru my door have no clue what a class structure is like. Very few know what they want. Of the few that know... SC / SS are for the peeps that strictly want sport or street fighting without the forms.

ginosifu

That makes a lot of sense to me. I think its awesome that you have that outlet.

Do you have any suggestions for a school that does not offer that same alternative?

[mooyingmantis]

I only offer four forms a student can learn. In my school learning one form is mandatory. If you don't have the discipline to learn one form, you aren't worth my time. The key is discipline. Besides, every fighting principle I will teach you is contained in the one form.

Only about ten to fifteen minutes of class time is spent on form work. All the other time is spent on drilling (wooden man, focus mitts, two man), theory and sparring.

In my school it is my way, or the highway. If you think you know how I should teach you, you should be teaching rather than asking me to teach you. Since your knowledge must be superior to mine (at least in your fantasy world).

[David Jamieson]

You make a good point Richard. The discipline aspect of having to physically and mentally memorize structures and forces is not to be belittled. Learning a form actually changes how you think about physical discipline.

Thumbs up on that clear point.

[Lucas]

I only offer four forms a student can learn. In my school learning one form is mandatory. If you don't have the discipline to learn one form, you aren't worth my time. The key is discipline. Besides, every fighting principle I will teach you is contained in the one form.

Only about ten to fifteen minutes of class time is spent on form work. All the other time is spent on drilling (wooden man, focus mitts, two man), theory and sparring.

In my school it is my way, or the highway. If you think you know how I should teach you, you should be teaching rather than asking me to teach you. Since your knowledge must be superior to mine (at least in your fantasy world).

do you give the student a form based on your assessment of them, or does each person start with one form in particular? also if someone thinks their sh!t dont stink, but in reality it stinks very badly, do you say 'hey your sh!t really stinks, you arent done with form buddy'

it seems to me there is a lot of common ground between teachers, but there is also a pretty wide variance on methods of instruction.

one of the reasons i started this thread is to kind of see what some of the professional teachers generally think in regards to new students and the required development of their school

[TenTigers]

Sifu David Rogers of Rising Crane has a similar approach as Gino Sifu has, if I'm not mistaken.
Perhaps when my grappling, SC and Sanda curriculum is wired tighter, I will go a similar route. For now, I take the approach as Richard. My way or the highway.

[Lucas]

The 'my way or the highway' is the most common method ive encountered.

To a large extent i do agree. To a smaller extent I wonder if some gems in the rough are turned away along with the filth.

Some of the 'my way highway' are very extreme.

We have all met people burned by form factories. A lot of times those people develop a distinct dislike of forms based on their experience.

If a prospective student with a bad experience shares that with you, how do you differentiate your school from their previous one in terms of form use. And how do you drive home to them that 'your form way or high way' is any different than that last doche that took them for a ride on their highway??

This is part of why it seems MMA is so attractive to people new to MA. It seems like a mma program like earth dragon or a sc/ss program like gino sifu may be a way to combat this ignorance in the masses, yet at the same time show through doing what cma actually represents.

Gino sifu, do you ever see any cross over from people deciding to become more traditional later on in their training after doing sc/ss only for a while? likewise, earthdragon, do you notice this from your mma program at all?

[YouKnowWho]

I won't even teach forms if people pay me good money for it. I had spent a good part of my life time in forms. I just don't feel like to spend any more of my life time in it. The integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, and ground game will be what I'm interesting for the rest of my life.

[Lucas]

I won't even teach forms if people pay me good money for it.

You made me choke on my water with that one. :D

[bawang]

forms have a lot of important concepts and techniques of ur style. if stuff from ur form doesnt work it shows complete failure of ur style. doing good at sanda proves nothing. it shows u r good at sanda.

its better to have chiense martial arts go extinct than force itself to be something its not.

oldest diagram of northern kung fu postures date over 500 years old. in chinese martial arts 1000 year old history is not a myth but a possibility. a lot of people dont know what theyre throwing away.


european society is fluid and transient. there is no connection with the past. anglo saxons and middle ages is foreign and far awar to an average westerner. in chinese culture there is root and continuity. its easy for outsider to watch some kung fu movies, get bored and do mma. for me ill stay true to my race and culture and preserve this ancient way of life.

[TenTigers]

It's funny, but I really never get people who want to do only sparring, or grappling, etc. I am a few blocks from Matt Serra's dojo, and a Gracie Barra one town over in the other direction. If they want that, they know where to go.
Most of the people who come in say,"I've always wanted to learn Kung-Fu."
There are a few who I've trained on the side in other things, such as LEOs, but that is in addition to the regular curriculum.

[YouKnowWho]

When I gave "combat SC" workshop in Taiji Legacy, I had 4 to 6 students. The lady who taught "fan form" next to me had more than 30 students. I have more than 50 forms that may be as pretty as that fan form but to me I had BTDT.

I have nothing against form. It's just not my high priority at this point of my life.

[bawang]

man 5 to 6 students is normal number traditionally. wit 30 students its cold and distant revolving door class.

think in the big picture mang. in 100 years the bich dead and gone and no one remembers her made up fan form. in 100 years shuai jiao remains and endures.

[David Jamieson]

forms have a lot of important concepts and techniques of ur style. if stuff from ur form doesnt work it shows complete failure of ur style. doing good at sanda proves nothing. it shows u r good at sanda.

its better to have chiense martial arts go extinct than force itself to be something its not.

oldest diagram of northern kung fu postures date over 500 years old. in chinese martial arts 1000 year old history is not a myth but a possibility. a lot of people dont know what theyre throwing away.


european society is fluid and transient. there is no connection with the past. anglo saxons and middle ages is foreign and far awar to an average westerner. in chinese culture there is root and continuity. its easy for outsider to watch some kung fu movies, get bored and do mma. for me ill stay true to my race and culture and preserve this ancient way of life.

This is a psychology students nightmare. lol

European culture has been continuous, it's just vindictive rivalries that cause it to seem broken, but it pretty much has grown to become what it is now. mostly what unified the european mind was the industrial revolution and when England implemented a fully industrialized state in about 1901, france, germany and the rest fo teh world followed with many to this day not even started.

Still From the most ancient Greeks forward there have been many schisms, but it's all there. The cool stuff is the Roman times as far as how Europeans are today. Pretty much all higher institutions in western society are still based on their greek and roman roots.

In most western languages, the root words are greek or roman as well, again expressing continuity. Anyway, european culture and civilization are nothing new. :p

[bawang]

In most western languages, the root words are greek or roman as well, again expressing continuity. Anyway, european culture and civilization are nothing new. :p
so ur proud to be an italian and german? u feel some kind of special connection to them? or slavs? welsh?

dont bulsh1t me man theres no connections to the past. and latin words arent root words theyre loanwords. ur as roman as much as the japanese are chinese.
when u think of ancient people u coldly and distantly form a image of bearded men in strange foreign clothes. u cant identify with them.

[Lucas]

I am proud to be of Germanic decent.

[David Jamieson]

so ur proud to be an italian and german? u feel some kind of special connection to them? or slavs? welsh?

dont bulsh1t me man theres no connections to the past. and latin words arent root words theyre loanwords. ur as roman as much as the japanese are chinese.
when u think of ancient people u coldly and distantly form a image of bearded men in strange foreign clothes. u cant identify with them.

I can if they're wearing kilts. lol

[bawang]

I am proud to be of Germanic decent.

which tribe?

exactly

[David Jamieson]

which tribe?

exactly

gunn / alban

http://www.scotchcorner.com/clan-crest/gunn-crest.jpg

(notice the latin) It's says "In peace, or in war"

here's a little history:
Gunn Clan (http://gunnclan.net/clan-gunn-history/)

Here's my clan tartan and surname with it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/kunglek/yhst-99013670137463_2112_1868166560.jpg

I feel completely connected to this. :)

[Lucas]

Doesnt matter. I'm mixed with 1/4 choctaw anyway...

[Lucas]

gunn / alban

http://www.scotchcorner.com/clan-crest/gunn-crest.jpg

(notice the latin) It's says "In peace, or in war"

here's a little history:
Gunn Clan (http://gunnclan.net/clan-gunn-history/)

put a gun in that hand

[bawang]

gunn / alban

http://www.scotchcorner.com/clan-crest/gunn-crest.jpg

(notice the latin) It's says "In peace, or in war"

so how is there continuity between ur celtic ancestors and the anglo who slaughtered them?
why use latin when its symbol of conquest and assimiliation of ur people and culture by the romanized english?

pan european pride is very vague and contradicting

[Lucas]

are people from very far north china exactly like people from very far south china?

[bawang]

for me i can struggle to understand cantonese 1 thousand miles south of my hometown. no matter how much u try schnitzelwaffler isnt gonna make sense to u.
i met people from russian borders and chinlese peoples from viet border. we all can relate to each otehr and feel like countryman and brothers. a spanish isnt gonna feel the same way with a irish. hell a spanish isnt even gonna relate to a portugese.

[David Jamieson]

so how is there continuity between ur celtic ancestors and the anglo who slaughtered them?
why use latin when its symbol of conquest and assimiliation of ur people and culture by the romanized english?

pan european pride is very vague and contradicting

Obviously, they didn't slaughter them or I would not be here.
Continuity of life is all about intermingling. The gunn clan can trace to the picts who then were intermingled with the norse and can connect to historical figures.

This Clan and all clans of scotland went through trials and tribulations until restoration and revitalization occured. The Latin is used because english in the common form as we speak it now is quite a recent invention. Prior to the Elizibethan era, english language was "olde" or in other wods, mostly German. :p

Scot's however, as well as The Welsh and Irish all had similar roots in a past further back in time than the incursion of Rome. But written language that was "common" came about in the present sense with Rome and what followed after 600 ce approx, when it fell. The Angles and the Saxons are what are the stock of english that are native to the region. Scot's, Welsh and Irish natives are still retaining their language and culture as well. The english do it too. It was the norse who most changed the Island though, but written history is rare and most of it comes from roman times and archaeological history. When writing became particularly english, it was already well into the first millenium.

So, in context to Chinese culture, it's quite similar in many aspects.
stone age >bronze age>iron age>industrialization>???>profit?

:)

[bawang]

bro, the english slaughtered the welsh. there was no gradual mixing they were driven out. the welsh are genetically distinct from the rest of the country.

romans slaughtered "barbarian" tribes and your ancestors pillaged rome. then u guys repopulated rome when most of romans died from the plague. theres no pan european roots or unity. its always one people displaceing another.

[David Jamieson]

bro, the english slaughtered the welsh. there was no mixing. the welsh are genetically distinct from the rest of the country.

No they did not. I am half welsh on my mother's side. :)
In fact Welsh history is quite different in that they did not have war with the English and instead welcomed them into their lands and to this day it is the Welsh who have retained their aincient tongue the most fully.

Anyway, here's our crest from that side of the family:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v202/kunglek/iles.gif

Here's some history on Cymru and it's relationship with England

from wiki: (i could get it from britannica if you like)The English may have had small incursions but no major wars happened between these two.

The Roman occupation of Britain was the first period in which the area of present-day England and Wales was administered as a single unit (with the exception of the land to the north of Hadrian's Wall). At the time, Wales and England were not separate countries: all the native inhabitants of Roman Britain spoke Brythonic languages and were all regarded as Britons divided into numerous tribes. After the conquest, the Romans administered this region as a single unit, the province of Britannia.

Welsh law developed from this base. It was first codified by Hywel Dda (Hywel the Good; reigned 942 – 950) when he was king of most of Wales. The Statute of Rhuddlan in 1284 replaced Welsh criminal law with English law. Welsh law continued to be used for civil cases until the annexation of Wales to England in the 16th century.

[hskwarrior]

Questions for TCMA teachers.
If forms are part of your curriculum, do you require everyone to learn the same forms? If a man (or woman I suppose ) comes in to your school and is interested in learning cma for defense and possibly fight competition but is turned off by the idea of forms, are you willing to make an exception from your normal curriculum for that individual, or do you turn them away? If they express at the introduction that they do not seek to carry on as a teacher to the masses, and are only there to learn the martial for themselves, are they viewed in a different light?


One of the first questions i ask of new potential student is what you goal would be? Fighting? learning a system? joining a group? Self defense, etc.

IF someone tells me that they are just looking to fight then forms are out of the question. we will start focusing on everything he will need on fighting.

Great thing is, not everyone wants to become a fighter.

[bawang]

No they did not. I am half welsh on my mother's side. :)
In fact Welsh history is quite different in that they did not have war with the English and instead welcomed them into their lands and to this day it is the Welsh who have retained their aincient tongue the most fully.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j617mImHVvk

my point is identity. how much can u really relate to ur ancestors.
how much culture is from creativity and beauty of your own people and not forced upon u from a foreign invader.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_polytheism
do those "pagan" things resonate in ur heart? do they make u feel any emotions? any pride? no. u see them as primitive alien practices. abstract and far away. theres a disconnection between past and present.

[mooyingmantis]

do you give the student a form based on your assessment of them, or does each person start with one form in particular? also if someone thinks their sh!t dont stink, but in reality it stinks very badly, do you say 'hey your sh!t really stinks, you arent done with form buddy'

it seems to me there is a lot of common ground between teachers, but there is also a pretty wide variance on methods of instruction.

one of the reasons i started this thread is to kind of see what some of the professional teachers generally think in regards to new students and the required development of their school

Lucas,
Each student learns the same form. It only has thirty-six movements, so it can be learned fairly quickly.

By watching beginners "learn" the form, their strengths and weaknesses are revealed:
1. Are they visual based learners or hands on learners?
2. How is their balance, flexibility, hand/eye coordination?
3. How do they respond under pressure based on my demand for perfection in performance of a set routine?

After the student learns the first form, they can choose whether they want to learn the other three forms, emphasize sport training, or emphasize self-defense. The first form serves as the doorway to each path. Go through it, then choose your path.

Recently the husband of a coworker came to me wanting to learn to fight. He made it clear he didn't want any forms training and wanted to train for sport fighting. He believed he already knew how to street fight and was fairly certain he was already a bad a s s, since he was a large and muscular guy.

The first class, I started him on the first drill I teach. We did it very slowly together. Then I let him spar me. He was allowed to punch, kick, grapple - anything he chose to do against me. I only used the combo I taught him. He quickly realized he didn't stand a chance against me no matter what he tried, even though I only used the same combo on him over and over.

By the end of the second class he was very excited about learning our style. Then I told him one form was required as a part of the curriculum. It was the last I saw of him.

To me that revealed his greatest weakness. Though he saw something I had that he wanted, he still believed he knew what was best rather than trust my forty plus years of experience. Its hard to break through that kind of arrogance. So I am glad that I didn't have to waste more than two classes on him.

[David Jamieson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j617mImHVvk

my point is identity. how much can u really relate to ur ancestors.
how much culture is from creativity and beauty of your own people and not forced upon u from a foreign invader.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxon_polytheism
do those "pagan" things resonate in ur heart? do they make u feel any emotions? any pride? no. u see them as primitive alien practices. abstract and far away. theres a disconnection between past and present.

I really can relate with my ancestors and I can live in this world I am in as well. It's attitude and perspective. There is much art of the ancients in the peoples I come from and I am fond of it by my personal nature. Foreign invaders are a constant in human history. We are all intermingled, or long dead as far as that goes. :)

I don't see paganism as a primitive and alien practice, there are many today who practice it as their religion or study. The allegory contains a lot of knowledge. The continuity flows in anyone who is aware of it and even in people who aren't aware of it. there does come times when you are in a place, or hear something, or smell something and it connects you to the past in a deep and meaningful way. It's almost always a transpersonal experience and non transmittable except in some superficial way, but the thread is there.

You'd be surprised at how much pride there is in anyone who is aware of where they came from. It's a cosmic thing man.

[Lucas]

Lucas,
Each student learns the same form. It only has thirty-six movements, so it can be learned fairly quickly.

By watching beginners "learn" the form, their strengths and weaknesses are revealed:
1. Are they visual based learners or hands on learners?
2. How is their balance, flexibility, hand/eye coordination?
3. How do they respond under pressure based on my demand for perfection in performance of a set routine?

After the student learns the first form, they can choose whether they want to learn the other three forms, emphasize sport training, or emphasize self-defense. The first form serves as the doorway to each path. Go through it, then choose your path.

Recently the husband of a coworker came to me wanting to learn to fight. He made it clear he didn't want any forms training and wanted to train for sport fighting. He believed he already knew how to street fight and was fairly certain he was already a bad a s s, since he was a large and muscular guy.

The first class, I started him on the first drill I teach. We did it very slowly together. Then I let him spar me. He was allowed to punch, kick, grapple - anything he chose to do against me. I only used the combo I taught him. He quickly realized he didn't stand a chance against me no matter what he tried, even though I only used the same combo on him over and over.

By the end of the second class he was very excited about learning our style. Then I told him one form was required as a part of the curriculum. It was the last I saw of him.

To me that revealed his greatest weakness. Though he saw something I had that he wanted, he still believed he knew what was best rather than trust my forty plus years of experience. Its hard to break through that kind of arrogance. So I am glad that I didn't have to waste more than two classes on him.

That seems like a really great structure to me. 1 form isnt much to ask at all. In fact thats very little to request of someone. Especially as you use it largely in part as an evaluational tool to better serve the student.

Kind of stupid of that guy to turn away seeing as how you handle him with 1 combo... :rolleyes:

[Lucas]

It's a cosmic thing man.

Uki, what did you do with DJ?