THE BOOK OF FIVE RINGS By Miyamoto Musashi [Archive]

GeneChing

12-10-2010, 11:57 AM

We have several threads that mention Musashi, but none dedicated to The Book of Five Rings. Our new sweepstakes is for a gorgeous new edition of The Book of Five Rings By Miyamoto Musashi, translated by Thomas Cleary, with 2 audio CDS read by Lloyd James (ends 6:00 p.m. PST on 12/22/2010) (http://www.kungfumagazine.net/index.html) so I'm using that as an excuse to start one.

On the way to work today, I was toying with the idea of starting a subforum dedicated to books. I know I'm always resistant to launching new forums because it's a hassle to shuffle old threads about and it would require more maintenance. But as a publisher, I'm considering it mostly for the statement it would make.

Back to Musashi, I wrote my Provost D'Arms thesis on The Book of Five Rings. That was back in '85 I think. I'm eager to hear of anyone else who has engaged The Book of Five Rings here.

Some miscellaneous Musashi threads:
Ni-Ten Ichi Ryu (musashi) (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54809)
Musashi Miyamoto Trilogy (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53761)

Lucas

12-10-2010, 12:07 PM

http://pong.digitale-heimat.de/block/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/gorin-no-sho-titel.gif

Thomas Cleary's translation is the one I have also. I really like all of Cleary's translation work and tend to grab his versions when ever available. I'll need to pull that bad boy out and dust it off, its been a while....I stumbled upon the book of five rings about 11 years ago after reading the hagakure for my first time.

Do not harbor sinister designs.
Diligently pursue the Path of Two-Swords-as-One.
Cultivate a wide range of interests in the arts.
Be knowledgeable in a variety of occupations.
Be discreet regarding one’s commercial dealings.
Nurture the ability to perceive the truth in all matters.
Perceive that which cannot be seen with the eye.
Do not be negligent, even in trifling matters.
Do not engage in useless activity.

http://xmusashi.com/useless/musashi.gif

Lucas

12-10-2010, 02:10 PM

reading a bit through, in the book of the void, there is a quote very relevant to all martial artists in regards to becoming a good fighter/warrior;

"To attain the Way of strategy as a warrior you must study fully other martial arts and not deviate even a little from the Way of the warrior. With your spirit settled, accumulate practice day by day, and hour by hour. Polish the twofold spirit heart and mind, and sharpen the twofold gaze perception and sight. When your spirit is not in the least clouded, when the clouds of bewilderment clear away, there is the true void."

KC Elbows

12-10-2010, 02:21 PM

A forum on books would be fantastic!

Do it, Gene, you know you want to. It's what all the cool kids do.

ShaolinDan

12-10-2010, 02:39 PM

I think a book forum would be nice too.

I like the Book of Five Rings, not sure which translations I've read--a few--none of them so different from each other (nothing like the variation in some of the Chinese classics at least), good stuff. A lot of Sun Tzu in there, reminds me of bruce Lee :p

Lucas

12-10-2010, 04:40 PM

It could be a great place for people to share any studies, articles or papers they find interesting, or have written themselves.

Jimbo

12-11-2010, 01:07 AM

Gene, a book sub-forum would be great.
It's been a while since I've read in The Book of Five Rings. Never read the whole thing straight through, though. There is a lot in there to be applied today.

There are other good books along similar lines, as well. One I like a lot is The Unfettered Mind by Takuan Soho, translated by William Scott Wilson.

Regarding Bruce Lee, a great deal (most?) of his philosophy was adopted from old texts or accounts, just reworded a little bit. BL was a huge reader. I heard or read a famous old account of a samurai challenging another (I don't remember if the challenge was to Musashi, but I think it was to another well-known samurai) on a boat, and it was matched exactly by the boat scene in Enter the Dragon where BL tricks the Australian guy off the boat with "The art of fighting without fighting." BL adopted a lot of stuff from old Japanese and Chinese books. That was a good thing, but a lot of BL fans think those ideas were thought up by BL, when in fact they were written down hundreds of years ago.

The great thing about books like The Book of Five Rings, The Unfettered Mind, and others is you can revisit them countless times and glean new things from them.

GeneChing

12-13-2010, 04:15 PM

Takuan Soho has often been credited as Musashi's master, but that legend has been discredited for the most part. Kenji Tokitsu's Miyamoto Musashi: His Life and Writings (also from Shambhala coincidentally) offers some serious criticisms of that legend - it's a must-read for any Musashi scholar. I even reference this in my book, Shaolin Trips (http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Trips-Gene-Ching/dp/1424308976/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276188031&sr=1-1) on page 79. Nevertheless, I concur with you, Jimbo. Unfettered Mind is a tremendous read.

As for Lee's works, anyone who has even a passing knowledge of philosophy knows that Lee poached a lot of his ideas from his studies. I mentioned this in Shaolin Trips: Flashback (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=937), my most recent e-zine installment. Sadly, when his posthumous works were being compiled, Lee's notes were pillaged and many of the ideas were credited to Lee. I'm not sure if the compilers were trying to make look wiser than he was or if they were just ignorant of the body of philosophy Lee was exposed to in his studies. I don't think Lee would have wanted that. It's a strange legacy.

Lucas

12-14-2010, 12:04 PM

One I like a lot is The Unfettered Mind by Takuan Soho

One of the best books I have ever read. For anyone who has not read this, go read it now!!

sanjuro_ronin

12-14-2010, 12:47 PM

Lucas

12-14-2010, 12:55 PM

sanjuro_ronin

12-14-2010, 01:01 PM

did munenori and musashi actually have a rivalry or was that only in fiction? the time line seems to fit.

kojiro fought musashi with a nodachi! :D

I think it was one of those "if two tigers fight one dies and the other is crippled for life" type of thing and they probably avoided each other out of mutual admiration.

Musashi was a fine strategist and his philosophy carries over very well, his problem was that he was obessive compulsive and had no balance when he wrote the GO rin No sho.
It is far to one dimensional in regards to life, which makes sense since he was obsessed with combat.

Lucas

12-14-2010, 02:37 PM

his views were definately to the far end of the extreme. i can understand from a point of perspective, it must have been a hard life. A reputation like his wouldn't leave much room for slack in discipline.

i always wondered how much truth there is to the whole carved ore thing. i just looked up on wikipedia...it says he carved the bokken to be bigger than a nodachi!!! man thats FREAKING HUGE. almost a rediculous claim lol, it doesnt say on wiki that he did but didnt he deliver the death blow with his wakizashi? maybe im just remembering that from that old musashi movie or something...

Jimbo

12-14-2010, 09:43 PM

I have 3 translations of the Book of five rings.
The unfettered mind.
The sword and the mind by Yagyu Muneori
The sword polisher by Adam Hus
Sheesh, I have SO MANY books on MA its ridiculous.
I Have the Hand is my sword by Robert Trias.
Dynamic Judo: Grappling by Kudo
The Kawashi m ethod of Judo by Kawasashi (old school judo).
I even have some books with Gene talking about Hung ga, the article he wrote for Inside Kung fu centuries ago.
LOL !
I have some old stuff, real old stuff.

Wow, I thought I was the only one who still has a copy of The Hand is My Sword. I also have a library of MA books, many now out of print. A room is set aside that houses this 'library'. :) Some other notable books in my MA collection include:

The Sword Polisher's Record by Adam Hsu.
Lone Sword Against a Cold Cold Sky by Adam Hsu.
Budo Secrets by John Stevens.
The Demon's Sermon on the Martial Arts by Issai Chozanshi, translated by William Scott Wilson.
Combat Techniques of Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua by Lu Shengli.
Karate: The Art of Empty-Hand Fighting by Nishiyama and Brown.
The Way of Karate by Mattson.
The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu by Hanc0ck and Higashi.
Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods by R.W. Smith.
Martial Musings by R.W. Smith.
Western Boxing and World Wrestling by John F. Gilbey (actually, a pen name for R.W. Smith).
Several interesting books by Marc "Animal" MacYoung.
And of course, Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals by Kennedy and Guo.

I don't buy very many books on MA anymore, but there's still some really good stuff that comes out now and then. I must get Gene's book Shaolin Trips!

sanjuro_ronin

12-15-2010, 06:44 AM

sanjuro_ronin

12-15-2010, 06:48 AM

Wow, I thought I was the only one who still has a copy of The Hand is My Sword. I also have a library of MA books, many now out of print. A room is set aside that houses this 'library'. :) Some other notable books in my MA collection include:

The Sword Polisher's Record by Adam Hsu.
Lone Sword Against a Cold Cold Sky by Adam Hsu.
Budo Secrets by John Stevens.
The Demon's Sermon on the Martial Arts by Issai Chozanshi, translated by William Scott Wilson.
Combat Techniques of Taiji, Xingyi, and Bagua by Lu Shengli.
Karate: The Art of Empty-Hand Fighting by Nishiyama and Brown.
The Way of Karate by Mattson.
The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu by Hanc0ck and Higashi.
Chinese Boxing: Masters and Methods by R.W. Smith.
Martial Musings by R.W. Smith.
Western Boxing and World Wrestling by John F. Gilbey (actually, a pen name for R.W. Smith).
Several interesting books by Marc "Animal" MacYoung.
And of course, Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals by Kennedy and Guo.

I don't buy very many books on MA anymore, but there's still some really good stuff that comes out now and then. I must get Gene's book Shaolin Trips!

Excellent collection my friend and I do suggest Gene's book, it is quite good.
I don't by MA books about MA per say anymore, unless it is a MA I don't have a book on.
I have old books and some new ones.
I have Dynamic Karate by Nakayama
The Uechi-ryu book by Mattason.
Quite a few Aikido books by O-sensei ( His Budo one is excellent).
I have books by Steve Sanders ( Championship Kenpo) and Parker's series "Infinite insights into kenpo".
I also have a huge DVD collection too.
I have old taiji and bagua books.
I really need to catalogue my collection it seems, LOL !!

GeneChing

12-15-2010, 10:31 AM

My book, Shaolin Trips, makes a great holiday gift! (http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Trips-Gene-Ching/dp/1424308976/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276188031&sr=1-1) ;)

My book collection needs some culling. I have two wall height bookcases at home and another behind me here at work. I used to have a massive collection of different versions of Sun Tzu's Art of War - over two dozen editions. I only have a few translations of Book of Five Rings (I think). When I did my fencing thesis in 84-85, there were only two available, Cleary's and another that I can't quite remember...

sanjuro_ronin

12-15-2010, 10:41 AM

have a few books on fencing, Nadi's of course and books on medivel and rennassiance fencing, rapier and dagger fencing, saber fencing and a few others.
I have a few on kenjustu too of course, the Katorti shinto ryu ones ( Vol 1,2 and 3 and the latest one) and a few on the Yagyu shinkage ryu as well.

Jimbo

12-15-2010, 10:52 AM

Hi, SR.
I've always thought the photography in Dynamic Karate was some of, or maybe the best, in any technical MA book. Esp. unique are the single photos showing the travel route of the limb, the muscle groups used, etc. The lighting is also excellent. I have often wished someone would create a technical Chinese MA book with that same level of quality and detail as shown in Masatoshi Nakayama's books. I'd really like to see a good CLF book like that. Unfortunately, to this day, the best CLF book that I know of is still Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu by Lee Koon-Hung.

Surprisingly, I don't have a lot of technical or instructional DVDs on MA. Besides many of the DVDs produced by my own CLF teacher for his students, I only have three by Adam Hsu, one each by Bucksam Kong and Doc-Fai Wong, and some free DVDs that came with some MA mags.

I have some old VHS tapes, though. One is 4 Kung Fu Masters, featuring Adam Hsu, Doc-Fai Wong, Brendan Lai, and Chan Pui. I have another tape that is a compilation of very old, super-8 footage of sport karate and kickboxing matches from the 1960s and early 70s showing guys like Joe Lewis, Bill Wallace, Arnold Urquidez, Byong Yu, etc., with some commentary by Joe Lewis and Jay T. Will put onto it. There's one tape with only a couple of minutes transferred from super-8 footage of Mantis in Taiwan from the late '50s or early '60s that I got from Robert W. Smith himself, on the promise that I would not copy it for anyone else. And a couple of NYC kung fu demo tapes. I really need to get these transferred onto DVD, esp. the 4 Masters and sport karate tapes, as 4 Masters is long out of print, the Smith footage is priceless, and the sport karate compilation was from another person's private collection. Hopefully the VHS tapes are still workable to get them copied onto DVD.

Yes indeed, some cataloging is definitely needed! :)

Lucas

12-15-2010, 10:52 AM

My book collection needs some culling.

Just be awesome and go get an old duey decimal file cabinet from a library!!

Jimbo

12-15-2010, 10:57 AM

BTW, another great sword book is The Secret History of the Sword; Adventures in Ancient Martial Arts by J. Christoph Amberger. It's a great book on Western MA, one of the finest.

sanjuro_ronin

12-15-2010, 11:04 AM

BTW, another great sword book is The Secret History of the Sword; Adventures in Ancient Martial Arts by J. Christoph Amberger. It's a great book on Western MA, one of the finest.

Agreed, I have that one and it is an excellent book.

ghostexorcist

12-15-2010, 11:43 AM

I just entered the contest. My fingers are crossed. I believe I had a copy of it while serving in the military years ago, but I can't seem to find it now. I do, however, still have William Scott Wilson's wonderful treatment of Musashi's life entitled The Lone Samurai (2004). I highly recommend it.

I think starting a sub-forum for books is a good idea too. If you choose to initiate it, you can move my older thread there:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56452&highlight=scholarly+books

[...]

I stumbled upon the book of five rings about 11 years ago after reading the hagakure for my first time.

I have noticed that a lot of English translations leave out a chapter appearing in the original. It instructs young Samurai on how to seek out an older male lover. The publishers obviously leave it out because it doesn't fit the modern view of the Samurai culture (which was historically pederastic in nature) and because ****sexuality is generally frowned upon in society at large.

Lucas

12-15-2010, 12:22 PM

I just entered the contest. My fingers are crossed. I believe I had a copy of it while serving in the military years ago, but I can't seem to find it now. I do, however, still have William Scott Wilson's wonderful treatment of Musashi's life entitled The Lone Samurai (2004). I highly recommend it.

I think starting a sub-forum for books is a good idea too. If you choose to initiate it, you can move my older thread there:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56452&highlight=scholarly+books

I have noticed that a lot of English translations leave out a chapter appearing in the original. It instructs young Samurai on how to seek out an older male lover. The publishers obviously leave it out because it doesn't fit the modern view of the Samurai culture (which was historically pederastic in nature) and because ****sexuality is generally frowned upon in society at large.

I wasnt aware of that, but i dont doubt it for a second. The copy I have ( i'll have to look when I'm home ) does include that. I dont know if its complete or not though. I cant remember who but the translator of the version I have is Japanese.

on that note its interesting how much our own culture does influence the available information on historical or modern aspects of another culture.

Lucas

12-15-2010, 01:04 PM

Hagakure: online pdf

not sure of who translation or what ever, nothing listed. but still a online version is always nice.

Hagakure (http://rosenoire.org/archives/Hagakure.pdf)

sanjuro_ronin

12-15-2010, 01:10 PM

Hagakure: online pdf

not sure of who translation or what ever, nothing listed. but still a online version is always nice.

Hagakure (http://rosenoire.org/archives/Hagakure.pdf)

The hagakure is nice but it should be noted that it was NOT typical of the warrior class samurai.
It was a by-product of a time where the samurai were, basically, warriors without a war.

Lucas

12-15-2010, 02:44 PM

wasnt it essentially meant to be a 'manual' or a 'reference' of sorts to hold on to traditions of the samurai caste because of peaceful times?

i remember there is a lot of advice in it about how to retain and remain a warrior through times of peace to prepare for the coming wars.

Lucas

12-15-2010, 02:51 PM

Book of Five Rings PDF: for anyone who would like to check it out some.

Go Rin No Sho (http://www.seishinkan.be/download/Gorinosho%20-%20The%20book%20of%205%20rings.pdf)

Translation: Victor Harris

Lucas

12-15-2010, 02:59 PM

Unfettered Mind (http://www.daikonforge.com/downloads/TheUnfetteredMind.pdf)

Translation: William Scott Wilson

I think i'll post these awesome pdf versions as i find them. handy stuff

Lucas

12-15-2010, 03:59 PM

Fudoshin (http://www.yamakawadojo.com/Fudoshin.pdf)

Stephan M. Fabian

this one is interesting, it uses several published sources to express fudoshin

GeneChing

12-15-2010, 06:58 PM

That was the other translation. Thanks for jogging my memory, Lucas.

The Hagakure is amusing historically in the same way that Qi Jiguang's Record of Military Training is amusing. The most frequently cited portions of the Hagakure by martial artists only comprises a fraction of the work. The bulk of it is court etiquette, not bushido. There's stuff about how to wear makeup (to cover up hangovers) and even allusions to proctoring young samurai the Greek way, if you get my meaning. Qi Jiguang is cited as the oldest extant reference to martial styles, but that section is minor and was deleted from a later edition of the work by Qi's request.

I'm delighted to see this thread take off. It is inspiring me to create that book forum, but it won't happen until next year as I'm pretty swamped right now.

Jimbo

12-15-2010, 06:59 PM

I just entered the contest. My fingers are crossed. I believe I had a copy of it while serving in the military years ago, but I can't seem to find it now. I do, however, still have William Scott Wilson's wonderful treatment of Musashi's life entitled The Lone Samurai (2004). I highly recommend it.

I think starting a sub-forum for books is a good idea too. If you choose to initiate it, you can move my older thread there:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56452&highlight=scholarly+books

I have noticed that a lot of English translations leave out a chapter appearing in the original. It instructs young Samurai on how to seek out an older male lover. The publishers obviously leave it out because it doesn't fit the modern view of the Samurai culture (which was historically pederastic in nature) and because ****sexuality is generally frowned upon in society at large.]

I'd heard of that before. I thought it sounded a lot like some practices of the warrior culture of ancient Greece.

Jimbo

12-15-2010, 07:06 PM

I never could get into the Hagakure. I read a bit of it years ago, and found it boring and some of it weird (the makeup bits, the body scenting bit, etc.). A lot of it seemed full of samurai self-indulgence because, as SR mentioned, they were, at the time of its writing, warriors without a war. They wanted the image of importance.

Lucas

12-16-2010, 10:26 AM

Art of War: Lionel Giles translation

Art of War (http://www.artofwarsuntzu.com/Art%20of%20War%20PDF.pdf)

GeneChing

12-30-2010, 12:01 PM

This has been a great thread. And it all started from our sweepstakes. See the winners here. (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1069858)

I must give thanks to Shambhalla once again, for providing the prizes *and* for publishing so many great martial arts books, translations and philosophy books. I probably have more Shambhalla books on my bookshelf than any other publisher.