Motion Research on Martial Arts

[RickMatz]

A link to an article (http://cookdingskitchen.blogspot.com/2008/06/motion-research-on-martial-arts.html) regarding a taijiquan master getting wired up at a motion research lab along with an accompanying video.

[taai gihk yahn]

the blog in question:


Stanford researchers record 'optimalforce' of tai chi master
By S.L. Wykes
Mercury NewsArticle Launched: 05/03/2007 01:33:41 AM PDT

Tai chi master Chen Xiang performs tai chi movements while a motion analysis test is beingconducted at the Motion and Gait Analysis Laboratory in Palo Alto on April 30, 2007.(Joanne Ho-Young Lee/Mercury News.Jessica Rose, an orthopedic surgery professor at Stanford, could not believeher eyes. Tai chi master Chen Xiang, sensor balls taped to key body joints, wasdemonstrating palm, elbow and fist strikes so fast - and with such force - thatthe sensors kept flying off his body. And then she glanced at her computerscreen, where Chen's movements were mirrored by an animated stick figure.Like a light-footed dancing skeleton, the figure's grace was undeniable. Andfrightening. The explosive power of the strikes was stunning - 400 pounds offorce generated by Chen's body accelerating from 0 mph to 60 mph in 2.8seconds - faster than any Lamborghini out on the street. This level of powerwas a first for her lab. It's also just plain unusual.

why they have to write these things in such a love-struck-cow manner: "couldn't believe her eyes", etc.; the intent is clearly to portray taiji as something extraordinary, as if it were something that so-called"western" science had no concept of, as if it were something that defies the laws of physics; ridiculous - get in some other people to demo stuff - like a pro boxer to punch for them and record speed, force, etc. - u wud get pretty much similar results (e.g. - http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/printthread.php?Board=5&main=15952153&type=post); it's at best disingenuous, at worst, deliberately misleading to qualify things in this manner

[PalmStriker]

EXCELLENT ! (Less is more) POWER.

[mooyingmantis]

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing this!

[taai gihk yahn]

I see people are more interested in sensationalism than in appropriate presentation and critical evaluation of research...

[Scott R. Brown]

It would be nice to see a comparison study with other fighting arts experts in order to more effectively evaluate the "stunning" nature of the findings!

[gilbride100]

As I understand it, the same thing was done with pro boxer Ricky Hatton and he was generating almost twice the power of the Tai Chi master.

[YouKnowWho]

How could a research not be able to know that was Baji and not Taiji.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihQuF4P687k

[taai gihk yahn]

It would be nice to see a comparison study with other fighting arts experts in order to more effectively evaluate the "stunning" nature of the findings!
THANK you...


As I understand it, the same thing was done with pro boxer Ricky Hatton and he was generating almost twice the power of the Tai Chi master.
THANK you...


How could a research not be able to know that was Baji and not Taiji.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihQuF4P687k
actually it states on the link that it is a taiji / baji guy; also, it's not that surprising since most people in the US know taiji but very few know about baji;

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, not to toot my own horn, but the study I was involved in at York university ( along with about 15 other guys from various MA) showed that those numbers are "average" at best.
400lbs pound of force if NOT the big a deal, a boxer's JAB have been measured at between 300-500 lbs of force.
I am assuming that based their reading on peak or median lbs of impact force and not something silly like PSI.
From the study I was involved in, the average strike was in the 800-900 median with peaks going over 1000 in some cases ( mine being one of them and I wasn't even the highest).
Fight science did something similar with Bas and a few other MA guys too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As I understand it, the same thing was done with pro boxer Ricky Hatton and he was generating almost twice the power of the Tai Chi master.

Ricky was in the 800 + range, yes.

[taai gihk yahn]

I also looked at the bio of the lead researcher, Jessica Rose, PhD

seems that the focus of her research is on kids w CP, meaning that she is probably a ot less familiar with motion analysis of athletes;
http://med.stanford.edu/profiles/Jessica_Rose/

as such, stating that "this evel of power was a first for her lab" is misleading - it suggests that she regularly looks at this sort of thing and that it was "unusual" in context of similar studies; in fact, it is a "first" for her lab bec her lab looks at kids w CP walking! so the fact that she didn't expect the sensors to come loose means only that she is used to putting them onto kids w CP, who certainly don't generate the same force that this guy would when they move; and she "couldn't believe her eyes" is probably an extrapolation on her response of seeing something she usually doesn't see in much the same way anyone might react

so, yes, we can all safely say that a taiji master generates more power than a child with global neurological dysfunction...:rolleyes:

she is also, BTW, not an orthopedic surgeon, even though her job title is Asst Prof of Ortho Surg - this is probably more a departmental contrivance in terms of how they classify profs - it suggests that she is working with pediatric orthos in context of the pre-/post-surg analysis of gait as well as the rehab aspects;

it also doesn't say anything about her experience w taij or martial arts, so hard to tell about her knowledge in that area

I think we can consider this topic as "de-spun"...

[sanjuro_ronin]

The use of a force plate and physics calculations is NOT the best or most correct way to gauge or meaurse force impact.
There was a study done a few years ago that did a similar thing but the measurments were then verified on an actual target.
The force that was measured on the force plate on the floor did NOT translate in reality to the target as per the researchers calculations.
It was actually about 20-30% less and the reason was not just that some of the force is ALWAYS lost in the transference ( has to do with force vectors) but the greater issues was impact dissipitation and lack of follow-through.
IN a nutshell, the main factor in increase of impact force was how much force is transfered THROUGH the target.
This is inline wiht what has been shown in impact test wiht crash dummies.
A compression or 3-4 inches is what transfers the most amount of impact force.
The tricky part is keeping the contact time to a minimal ( avoid making a punch a push).
They other tricky point is when the contact time is too little and not enough energy is transfered and not enough force is applied to the target ( the "flick" syndrome as one guy called it").