6 directional force vector

[kung fu fighter]

Here is an explaination of the 6 directional force vector http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sixj5sJyzhc

[t_niehoff]

And do you think that is helpful in some way?

BTW, when did the ancient Chinese invent "directional force vectors"? (And, isn't that term redundant?).

[Hendrik]

And do you think that is helpful in some way?

BTW, when did the ancient Chinese invent "directional force vectors"? (And, isn't that term redundant?).


The term Jing is Directional force vectors in Western language.

The ancient TCMA classic deal with Momentum ( Shi) and directional force vectors (Jing). One could read into these be it from the southern china Fujian's White Crane classic or the Northen internal martial art classic.


TCMA handling in momentum and force are much advance than most can imagine.

[Wayfaring]

BTW, when did the ancient Chinese invent "directional force vectors"? (And, isn't that term redundant?).

Yes.

Department of redundancy department redundant.

A vector is an entity with only two descriptive components - force and direction.

[t_niehoff]

The term Jing is Directional force vectors in Western language.


Ah, no. Ging (Cantonese) or jing (Mandarin) is not a "directional force vector" (and, as Dave rightly pointed out, a "vector" is direction and force). Moreover, the "force" element in a vector is a very specific entity, and it is not what you are proposing.

Ging essentially describes the quality of skillful action (as opposed to doing it with brute force or "lik").



The ancient TCMA classic deal with Momentum ( Shi) and directional force vectors (Jing). One could read into these be it from the southern china Fujian's White Crane classic or the Northen internal martial art classic.


Except that you are misinterpreting "ging". Ging cannot be separated from the action. For example, if you are a good swimmer, you don't use"lik" to power your strokes but you use the proper ging in your strokes which permit you to move with min effort and max performance. But you can't learn that ging by not swimming -- it comes with skill, not separately.



TCMA handling in momentum and force are much advance than most can imagine.

Ah, no. TCMA has lots of theory for handling momentum and force. ;) And most of it is bullocks. You can only truly learn to handle momentum and force by really handling momentum and force.

[Graham H]

6 directional force vectors????? You muppets!!!:D:D:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

You know what I love about the world we live in today?
In many ways, we are at the height of human physical achievement.
We run faster, longer than ever before.
We lift more.
We truly go further, faster and higher.

The norm for us now is far higher than the norm 100 years ago, even fifty years ago.

Awesome eh?
:D

[t_niehoff]

You know what I love about the world we live in today?
In many ways, we are at the height of human physical achievement.
We run faster, longer than ever before.
We lift more.
We truly go further, faster and higher.

The norm for us now is far higher than the norm 100 years ago, even fifty years ago.

Awesome eh?
:D

Stop talking sense, will you?

[Tom Kagan]

A vector is an entity with only two descriptive components - force and direction.

Uh ... no.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_%28mathematics_and_physics%29

[Wayfaring]

Uh ... no.

Uh .... yes .... in physics .....

Paul posted a link that actually contains a very broad range of definition of vectors.

Are you participating? Or just making cow noises?

[Tom Kagan]

Uh .... yes .... in physics .....

Paul posted a link that actually contains a very broad range of definition of vectors.

Are you participating? Or just making cow noises?

It's moot to the discussion, but Paul's link does not give validation. You made a mistake.

A vector is defined by MAGNITUDE and direction.

A force is a type of vector. "Force vector", while not redundant, typically has a more formal context.

A "directional force vector" is gibberish.

A "six directional force vector", while not redundant, is bombastic and incomplete. Also, it's technically gibberish, but it's close enough to some semblance of a form of reality to let it slide.



Here's the problem: What Hendrik is trying to say is a rather simple concept. It's called POWER. However, he doesn't like that word because he feels it doesn't express the full meaning of what he's talking about. Terrence's probably wouldn't like the use of the term "power" in this context, either, because he is alluding to the human expression of more power via muscular innervation and coordination.

But it's just power.



Are you participating? Or, do you just like eating the spoiled red herrings? Do your parents know you're using the computer this late on a school night?

[Wayfaring]

It's moot to the discussion, but Paul's link does not give validation. You made a mistake.

A vector is defined by MAGNITUDE and direction.

A force is a type of vector. "Force vector", while not redundant, typically has a more formal context.

A "directional force vector" is gibberish.

A "six directional force vector", while not redundant, is bombastic and incomplete. Also, it's technically gibberish, but it's close enough to some semblance of a form of reality to let it slide.


All right - better than cow noises. Yes I was assuming a physics context and a force vector as it is a reasonable assumption when speaking in a bodies in motion context.



Here's the problem: What Hendrik is trying to say is a rather simple concept. It's called POWER. However, he doesn't like that word because he feels it doesn't express the full meaning of what he's talking about. Terrence's probably wouldn't like the use of the term "power" in this context, either, because he is alluding to the human expression of more power via muscular innervation and coordination.

But it's just power.

It seems simple. I wouldn't give Hendrik enough credit for command over the English language to say his definition is that thought through. But yes the gist of it is training a foundation of movement in which you can generate punching force. I just don't like all the implications of exact science like the physics examples, and also don't like the Yellow Bamboo similarity of developing the no touch knockout magical power. On the physics side, once you get into changing velocities and differential equations it becomes a more accurate model, but then is beyond the comprehension of this board. On the TCMA side, the secrecy and lack of testing are red flags as well as ongoing systemic problems.



Are you participating? Or, do you just like eating the spoiled red herrings? Do your parents know you're using the computer this late on a school night?
Mmmm. I do like herrings. But then again I eat kim chee too.

And no, my parents don't know. You aren't going to tell them are you? :D

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[shawchemical]

The term Jing is Directional force vectors in Western language.

The ancient TCMA classic deal with Momentum ( Shi) and directional force vectors (Jing). One could read into these be it from the southern china Fujian's White Crane classic or the Northen internal martial art classic.


TCMA handling in momentum and force are much advance than most can imagine.

a vector is a directional force. thus your term is nonsense. And it is 3 dimensional, as each axis contains two, antiparallel directions of travel. You're not moving through time, which is the 4th dimension, so you're definitely not using 6.

[theo]

a vector is a directional force. thus your term is nonsense. And it is 3 dimensional, as each axis contains two, antiparallel directions of travel. You're not moving through time, which is the 4th dimension, so you're definitely not using 6.

6 directions, 3 pairs. this describes 3D does it not? XYZ coordinates.

forward/backward
up/down
left/right

notice it was not mentioned there are 6 dimensions.

[anerlich]

6 directions, 3 pairs. this describes 3D does it not? XYZ coordinates.


Which IIRC came from Descartes, who was not on the Red Boats as far as I know. The fact that we move in three dimensions isn't exactly a major revelation.


TCMA handling in momentum and force are much advance than most can imagine.

I personally can imagine a lot more than was demonstrated in that vid.

[shawchemical]

6 directions, 3 pairs. this describes 3D does it not? XYZ coordinates.

forward/backward
up/down
left/right

notice it was not mentioned there are 6 dimensions.

pathetic, needlessly confusing and ultimately incorrect descriptions of thing from a guy who believes in qi.

[k gledhill]

pathetic, needlessly confusing and ultimately incorrect descriptions of thing from a guy who believes in qi.


ya think ? ;) agree :D

[LoneTiger108]

FWIW, and fme I am familiar with 6 'joints' or 'links' which is unseparable from the older classic 6 Harmonies of traditional chinese medicine. It's just that within martial arts we overlay these ideas to our physical and bodies.

Six joints or links of the human body are the hip, knee, ankle, shoulder, elbow and wrist. Pair them up and add the spine gives you 13 specific areas to develop and loosen with stretching and breathing exercises. All part of the skin, tendon and bone nurturing that is present in most Wing Chun I have seen.

And all this bashing continues because of peoples disbelief in Hei (Chi/Qi) and I would ask anyone who doesn't think it exists to go and receive an accupuncture treatment from a decent practitioner! Either that, or stand out in the cold and tell me how you get your hands warm??!!

I can only presume all you guys who think Hei is rubbish also don't think you can build and nurture your muscles by lifting weights? Strange guys you lot...

[anerlich]

FWIW, and fme I am familiar with 6 'joints' or 'links' which is unseparable from the older classic 6 Harmonies of traditional chinese medicine. It's just that within martial arts we overlay these ideas to our physical and bodies.

Six joints or links of the human body are the hip, knee, ankle, shoulder, elbow and wrist. Pair them up and add the spine gives you 13 specific areas to develop and loosen with stretching and breathing exercises. All part of the skin, tendon and bone nurturing that is present in most Wing Chun I have seen.

6? 13? How does this fit into the five element theory you promote?


I can only presume all you guys who think Hei is rubbish also don't think you can build and nurture your muscles by lifting weights?

I don't why you think scepticism about Qi implies one must also be sceptical about anything else. To reach that conclusion imples that you have at least as poor a grasp of logic as those you see fit to criticise.

[LoneTiger108]

6? 13? How does this fit into the five element theory you promote?

Dude. As I've always said, the 5 elements is only a part of what 'I promote'. FWIW This 6 harmonies discussed here is practised within ALL the areas. It's a main point of study that actually follows on from the 5 elements. The next stage if you will!


I don't why you think scepticism about Qi implies one must also be sceptical about anything else. To reach that conclusion imples that you have at least as poor a grasp of logic as those you see fit to criticise.

Listen, what I said wasn't being critical because if I was I would be a bit more harsh! I am trying to make a connection to people who may be sceptical because there is a direct link to hei/chi/qi and body building.

If you have experienced any heigung training you will understand this. I have met singers and musicians with better understanding of heigung than some martial artists!

[shawchemical]

Dude. As I've always said, the 5 elements is only a part of what 'I promote'. FWIW This 6 harmonies discussed here is practised within ALL the areas. It's a main point of study that actually follows on from the 5 elements. The next stage if you will!



Listen, what I said wasn't being critical because if I was I would be a bit more harsh! I am trying to make a connection to people who may be sceptical because there is a direct link to hei/chi/qi and body building.

If you have experienced any heigung training you will understand this. I have met singers and musicians with better understanding of heigung than some martial artists!

I call SHenanigans. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS QI. Unless you can document it in unbiased experiments, saying qi exists is like saying there is a great flying spaghetti monster in the sky.

ITs complete bullsh.ite

[anerlich]

Dude. As I've always said, the 5 elements is only a part of what 'I promote'. FWIW This 6 harmonies discussed here is practised within ALL the areas. It's a main point of study that actually follows on from the 5 elements. The next stage if you will!!

From our last discussion of the five elements, I think you need to learn more about that before considering any next stage. Dude.


Listen, what I said wasn't being critical because if I was I would be a bit more harsh! I am trying to make a connection to people who may be sceptical because there is a direct link to hei/chi/qi and body building.

You were implying that people who didn't agree with you had logic difficulties. Sounds critical to me. And if I have to choose between harsh and patronising, Give me harsh. Please.


If you have experienced any heigung training you will understand this.

Patronising. I did five years of IMA before I took up WC. I've got heigung training up the wazoo, more than you, I expect.

[LoneTiger108]

Unless you can document it in unbiased experiments, saying qi exists is like saying there is a great flying spaghetti monster in the sky.

LOOK! There's a flying spaghetti monster! ;)


From our last discussion of the five elements, I think you need to learn more about that before considering any next stage. Dude.

Yes. I posted the 5 element thread to try to exchange with people who understood what I was saying. Unfortunately, not many could understand me so I have to go back into myself to see where I went wrong. And I do that all the time. I am quite young dude, and have plenty of time to improve my writing.


You were implying that people who didn't agree with you had logic difficulties. Sounds critical to me. And if I have to choose between harsh and patronising, Give me harsh. Please.

Okay, here's a little bit of harsh.

Most people I have met that don't agree with me end up doing so after a chat coz I'm like a dog with a bone man! I will always be critical of people who question the existence of our purest natural essence. And it sounds like you HAVE the experience, so why take offense????


I did five years of IMA before I took up WC. I've got heigung training up the wazoo, more than you, I expect.

So SHARE something useful for Wing Chun people here then! What are your thoughts on all this 6 directional force vector stuffs? Is that heiging or just physics 101?

I've tried to share what I know about similar expressions, so please share your own experience with such things...

[bennyvt]

the chi people are like most religions. The how ease you not believe in this thing that has no proof other then a book written by people that were lucky to count. Considering our muscles work by chemical reactions and not just put energy in it like a toy the whole chi moving your muscles is a bit stupid.

[Graham H]

Chi = rubbish!!

[anerlich]

Okay, here's a little bit of harsh.

Most people I have met that don't agree with me end up doing so after a chat coz I'm like a dog with a bone man!

THAT was harsh? Let's just say I'm confident I'll remain amongst the allegedly few disagreers. Man.


And it sounds like you HAVE the experience, so why take offense????

I have the experience, yes. It was ultimately unfulfilling, unlike the more supposedly more unsophisticated and mundane types of training.

Debunking waffle != taking offense.


What are your thoughts on all this 6 directional force vector stuffs? Is that heiging or just physics 101?


If it isn't physics, then it isn't real. Leverage, biomechanics, all that stuff. Use it properly and the results can be inspirational.

The world is already a wonderful place without having to take this pseudomystical stuff on board. There are scientifically based and demonstrable explanations for most phenomena, but that doesn't stop some from assuming that the fantastic or arcane-sounding explanation is better, because it sounds cooler or something or because it come from an exotic historical background, or because the voices in their head tell them so.

IMO this highlights the usual TCMA tendency to take a fairly pedestrian set of facts and pretend it is some incredible, arcane, revelation only visible to a select few, similar to the Emperor's new clothes. Taking not even a molehil, maybe an anthill, and making it into Mt Everest.

It's like a finger pointing to the moon, except in this case because you're so fixated on the moon, you haven't noticed that the finger doing the pointing is reality's raised middle one, and it's aimed at you.

[LoneTiger108]

IMO this highlights the usual TCMA tendency to take a fairly pedestrian set of facts and pretend it is some incredible, arcane, revelation only visible to a select few, similar to the Emperor's new clothes. Taking not even a molehil, maybe an anthill, and making it into Mt Everest.

And you have heard ME talk about Chi on this forum? In this way you describe? No. Because I haven't.


the chi people are like most religions. The how ease you not believe in this thing that has no proof other then a book written by people that were lucky to count. Considering our muscles work by chemical reactions and not just put energy in it like a toy the whole chi moving your muscles is a bit stupid.

Wow! Now people who believe in Chi are Religious? How nice! :D

Maybe you can explain to me these chemical reactions you mention, because that's how a muscle moves is it? It's not just simple mechanics and that wonderful layman phrase 'mind over matter'? Who/what 'creates' these chemical reactions?

If you have never felt the intention of your will controlling your body from silence, then you may not even know what your looking for on this quest for truth! I know we all use the term Chi/Qi/Hei because it's linked to our art and ancestors, but I'm all for finding the actual scientific terms that are similar, if not exactly the same. I see similarities in practises like Yoga, Pilates and Chiropractice. And of course, I am a Star Wars fan! ;)

Even Wikiedia has an okay summary on Qi imho...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi

And this interpretation from the japanese is probably the closest to what I understand:

"In the Japanese language, the Chinese character corresponding to "qi" (氣) is pronounced 'ki'. The Japanese language contains over 11,442 known usages of "ki" as a compound. As a compound, it tends to represent syllables associated with the mind, the heart, feeling, the atmosphere, and flavor"

[anerlich]

And you have heard ME talk about Chi on this forum? In this way you describe? No. Because I haven't.


I wasn't referring to you or ch'i. I was referring to the subject of the thread, which is what you asked me about.


but I'm all for finding the actual scientific terms that are similar, if not exactly the same. I see similarities in practises like Yoga, Pilates and Chiropractice. And of course, I am a Star Wars fan!

Yoga, Pilates, Chiropractic and Star Wars aren't sciences. IMO the Alien series was better - Alien Resurrection was awful, but then so was the Phantom Menace.

Here's Darth in one of his better moments:

http://johnmichaelboling.com/artforgeorgelucas/wp-content/original/2009_09/political-pictures-darth-vader-blasphemy-style.jpg