Can Tiger/Crane Form Be a Separate System?

[cerebus]

Just wondering, for anyone who has trained extensively in Hung Gar Kuen, do you feel that the Tiger and Crane set could be trained as a method in and of itself? I've long been interested in Hung Gar and it's always seemed to me that the Tiger/Crane set had a wide enough variety of techniques and concepts to stand on its own. What are your thoughts?

[sanjuro_ronin]

It can be a stand alone form in Hung Kuen, yes,
In the sense that no other form is needed.
Not sure if it can be a separate system unto itself since it doesn't address all of what combat implies.

[ginosifu]

A form is not the whole system. However, some system's only use 1 form like Tiger / Crane. Forms are only tools to enhance training in the system.

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

IMHO, many of the techniques in Tiger Crane require a more solid foundation in Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen in order to "prepare" the body-meaning larger movements,skills, power generation, etc. Can they be taught without it? Sure. Wing Chun and other short bridging systems start there and incorperate power development into the system through supplementary training.
The beauty in Hung Kuen lies in the fact that it can be played on any level. You can learn Gung Ji Fook Fu and use the techniques within that set as a stand alone system.* The 'higher level' techniques, meaning smaller movements, coiling, deflecting/trapping, angling, where as my teacher says, "the gaps are smaller," are introduced and focused on, in FHSYK. Many never really develop this, as this also takes more time to develop, and is part of the 'ripening' in the Siu Lum Hung Kuen practitioner.
Learning the form itself will teach you nothing. It won't "bring you to a higher level," That comes from your Sifu, not from forms collecting.
That only happens in the movies, where the young hero learns th3 deadly Tiger Crane form and then defeats the evil Bak Mei Priest, yadda-yadda...

"Put the DVD down and step away from the television!"

*more of a stand alone "striking system" (nods to Sanjuro)

[lkfmdc]

IMHO, many of the techniques in Tiger Crane require a more solid foundation in Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen in order to "prepare" the body-meaning larger movements,skills, power generation, etc.



IMO, that is outdated thinking. Any technique or skill can be taught. It is not about "learn form X first, then form Y", it's about HOW you train someone

[TenTigers]

. Can they be taught without it? Sure. Wing Chun and other short bridging systems start there and incorperate power development into the system through supplementary training.

yep-hence the quote. It's just in my experience, especially in SPM,(FHSYK and SPM share alot of techniques and methods) people coming into the system without a solid foundation have a hard time "getting it."
When I say GJFFK, I really am referring to the core technique taught in the form, rather than the form itself.

[Laukarbo]

imo after u learned the basics well u can learn any set,no matter in what order! talking bout hung kuen hand sets...

there was a discussion on this board many,many years ago about the 3 treasure sets of hung kuen are each a style by itself..or could be... I completely agree with that actually...or just using sap ying kuen which is like a highlight reel of the 3 treasures and adds the 5 elements...

[lkfmdc]

Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen has

1) all the basic footwork

2) all the basic fist strikes

3) tiger and crane movements (like, duh!)

4) basic palm

5) some basic kicking (some implied)

[TenTigers]

hmmmm....
you've got a point there....
sh1t, pretty soon you'll be saying that you can learn Biu Jee without learning Chum Kiu and Siu Lim Tau.....
or..
The Yang long form without first learning the 8, 24, 36...um, 37..

[sanjuro_ronin]

This made me remember that I don't have ANY video of the Sap Ying Kuen for my library.
:(
Any suggestions?

[tungmojingjung]

Cerebus,

Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen to me is would be the one, it entails everything, I guess thats why Sigung Chiu Kau would say practice this set properly 1000 times, then we'll begin to see real Hung kuen. When looking closely it provides everything, internal aspect, animals, elements, footwork, bridge work, its all there, with the aide of a qualified sifu, that skill will open Hung kuen like a large japanese fan.

[TenTigers]

Cerebus,

Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen to me is would be the one, it entails everything, I guess thats why Sigung Chiu Kau would say practice this set properly 1000 times, then we'll begin to see real Hung kuen. When looking closely it provides everything, internal aspect, animals, elements, footwork, bridge work, its all there, with the aide of a qualified sifu, that skill will open Hung kuen like a large japanese fan.

or perhaps a large Chinese fan?

[TenTigers]

This made me remember that I don't have ANY video of the Sap Ying Kuen for my library.
:(
Any suggestions?

Kwong Wing-Lam's dvd is excellent. His structure and form is impeccable.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Kwong Wing-Lam's dvd is excellent. His structure and form is impeccable.

Wing Lam's DVD are quite excellent, thanks for the advice.
I love my collection, it is a library of MA !

[tungmojingjung]

TT,

You are right, I stand corrected, a large chinese fan...

[chusauli]

Gung Ji Fuk Fu would be the one set that defines Hung Ga, not Fu Hoc Cern Ying. Gung Ji Fuk Fu is all you need.

Wing Lam's Sup Ying Kuen is correct and traditional. He does exhibit some Northern Fist signatures, however.

[Golden Arms]

Gung Ji Fuk Fu would be the one set that defines Hung Ga, not Fu Hoc Cern Ying. Gung Ji Fuk Fu is all you need.

Wing Lam's Sup Ying Kuen is correct and traditional. He does exhibit some Northern Fist signatures, however.

I agree. Gung Ji Fuk Fu is more than enough for a standalone "system" if one wished to take a set from Hung Kuen for this purpose. I would not choose to do the same with Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen as I learned it.

[blackjesus]

Learning the form itself will teach you nothing. It won't "bring you to a higher level," That comes from your Sifu, not from forms collecting.
That only happens in the movies, where the young hero learns th3 deadly Tiger Crane form and then defeats the evil Bak Mei Priest, yadda-yadda...


OMG! I am going to pay someone to teach me th3 deadly Tiger Crane so I can defeats the evil Shogun Rua! Thanks for saving me money, si hang!




Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen to me is would be the one, it entails everything, I guess thats why Sigung Chiu Kau would say practice this set properly 1000 times, then we'll begin to see real Hung kuen.


Too true. Vince Lombardi said: Perfect Practice Makes Perfect !

[Violent Designs]

OMG! I am going to pay someone to teach me th3 deadly Tiger Crane so I can defeats the evil Shogun Rua! Thanks for saving me money, si hang!




Too true. Vince Lombardi said: Perfect Practice Makes Perfect !

Practice also makes permanent.

Practice without guidance can lead to permanently imbued bad habits, LOL.

[cerebus]

For those who think Gung Ji Fook Fu would be a better "stand-alone" form than Fu Hok Sern Ying, what does GJFF have that FHSY does not?

[Golden Arms]

For those who think Gung Ji Fook Fu would be a better "stand-alone" form than Fu Hok Sern Ying, what does GJFF have that FHSY does not?

Among other things, Gung Ji as I learned it could be compared to the "engine" of the system. Fu Hok could be compared to things the engine powers. Its a generalization of course but in my experience it applies.

[tungmojingjung]

Gung ji in my opinion is the life source of Fu Hok, it is the foundation and the house all rolled up in one, many of the old master in time past when they came across a hung kuen student would ask to see one set, "Gung Ji".

[TenTigers]

years ago, I met an old Chinese guy who had studied in China, at a Temple when he was a boy for five years. I asked him what he learned. He said,"Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen.":cool:

[cerebus]

But what specifically does Gung Jee contain that Fu Hok does not, so as to make it what you say?

[David Jamieson]

You decide. :)

Here is Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen: GGFFK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76eZDYMQOPc)

Here is Tiger/Crane double shape : FHSYK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwePnR9O_wI)

The first one shows pretty much the complete set, the second one shows around the middle of the set.

what do you think is different? :)

[cerebus]

You decide. :)

Here is Gung Gee Fook Fu Kuen: GGFFK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76eZDYMQOPc)

Here is Tiger/Crane double shape : FHSYK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwePnR9O_wI)

The first one shows pretty much the complete set, the second one shows around the middle of the set.

what do you think is different? :)

Well, I've seen both forms in their entirety a number of times. The second clip you list shows only the specific "Tiger" and "Crane" technique portions of the form. Other than that, the Tiger/Crane set seems to have most of the same (or similar) techniques and footwork methods which are seen in Taming the Tiger set...

[sanjuro_ronin]

It truly depends on what you want your "one and only" form to be for.
If it is to simple "show the flavour" of the system, then the 5 animals and 5 elements is the one.
If the form is suppose to "build a base" then Taming the kitty is the one ( ;) )
If the form is suppose to "catalogue" the core then Tiger and crane is the one.
If the form is suppose to make you into a manly man with uber sexiness then the Iron wire is the one.
:D

[Violent Designs]

I don't want to sound like a smartass but punching people a lot is probably the best way to build a base in fighting.

[cerebus]

I don't want to sound like a smartass but punching people a lot is probably the best way to build a base in fighting.

Done plenty of that (still do it from time to time). I've gotten pretty good at it over the past 3 decades that I've been training in the martial arts. But my interest was in the best FORM for building a solid foundation in HUNG GAR. As I see it, traditional Kung Fu is much more than just fighting... ;)

And many thanks for the responses, I like hearing the various points of view. :)

[chusauli]

You forgot the special Iron Whip (Tiet Bien Kuen) uber male ***** set of Hung Ga. That's the one for attracting chicks and lifting 500 lbs of iron plates with your iron rod. I guess you could lift chicks with the iron whip also. :)

Now you know why Hung Ga is so popular.

[sanjuro_ronin]

You forgot the special Iron Whip (Tiet Bien Kuen) uber male ***** set of Hung Ga. That's the one for attracting chicks and lifting 500 lbs of iron plates with your iron rod. I guess you could lift chicks with the iron whip also. :)

Now you know why Hung Ga is so popular.

Hung says it all !

[TenTigers]

There are aspects in FHSYK that are simply not found in GJFFK. FHSYK places greater emphasis on the softer aspects of the bridge, the coiling of the waist, angling of the body and combining of these.

[David Jamieson]

GGFFK = old shaolin and foundation for all Hung Gar based off of Shaolin Tiger.

FHSYK = a later addition and what has become a hallmark and pillar set of teh Hung Kuen system(s).

iron thread was brought in from outside the system and the principles of that set are not alone in belonging to Hung Kuen although, they cna certainly be credited with it,s preservation in many ways.

Given the choice, I would put more study into the first in order to enhance the second and I would use the third to enhance them both.

[chusauli]

Hung says it all !

That's right!!! :)

[Laukarbo]

iron thread was brought in from outside the system and the principles of that set are not alone in belonging to Hung Kuen although, they cna certainly be credited with it,s preservation in many ways.

.

actually,thats something that hasnt been discussed much..how was the set up of iron thread before Wong Fei Hung learned it from Lam Fook Sing ? Are there any written recordings ? because imho WFH must have modified the set a lot,if it really was a set..maybe just exercises... the beginning is very similar to gung gee fook fu kuen...

[blackjesus]

Practice also makes permanent.

Practice without guidance can lead to permanently imbued bad habits, LOL.

That's why the saying goes PERFECT partice makes perfect. :-)

[mooyingmantis]

Both GGFF and FHSYK are wonderful sets. However, if I were going to drop all the sets except one Sup Ying Kuen would be my choice. I just think it is indicative of what old schools shaolin was. Plus it has the "cool" factor. :D

[SteveLau]

This topic has been discussed somewhat before on the Web - can the Tiger and Crane set alone generates a formidable fighter? Well IMHO, the set comprises of the foundations of Hung Gar system, and is more on the side of combat application. So, my answer to both questions is yes. However, as a separate system, it is does not have sufficient material to bring the student to the advanced level.



KC
Hong Kong

[ginosifu]

One thing that I would like to point is that FORMS are not the system. Forms are just tools inside the system to help the student learn different aspects training. My Sifu told a long time ago that forms give FLAVOR to the system. Look at Lam Tsai Wing Hung Kuen VS Tang Fang Hung Kuen. The theory behind all the movements are the same, however they have diiferent looking forms. Neither are right or wrong, just a different taste if you will.

No form EVER gave birth to any technique... techniques all came first thru trial and error. Then eventually people started linking techniques togther forming combinations. Combinations became longer and longer evolving into forms. So with that said, the way I was taught was drill drill drill drill... We would drill techniques solo, partner, with sparring gear on etc etc. Drills were all different types some single meovement, 2 or 3 move combinations, some long chains of techniques, some were 2 person mini drill fights etc etc. Some came from forms most of them did not.

My personal opinion is it does not matter what form you use in your kwoon. Whatever form(s) the teacher has are fine. What your goals are may differ from school to school. Some schools focus on fighting, some on health and fitness, some on forms, whatever floats your boat. if you are going to pick a form to learn... investigate.... find some clips of different ones and see what suits you. Then choose

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

actually,thats something that hasnt been discussed much..how was the set up of iron thread before Wong Fei Hung learned it from Lam Fook Sing ? Are there any written recordings ? because imho WFH must have modified the set a lot,if it really was a set..maybe just exercises... the beginning is very similar to gung gee fook fu kuen...
I believe that is due to WFH's formatting of the sets, adding the elements of Tiet Sien Kuen to the beginning of the pillar forms.

[ginosifu]

Getting back to the original question: Can we use only 1 form for a system?

The answer is YES and NO.

If you are practicing kung fu only for Health and Fitness, Yes. However the Sifu would need to have internal training methods to give to the students besides the form.

If you are practicing kung fu just to learn a Form, Yes. However if you are learning form(s) for tournament competition, you probably will need a few more sets (weapon forms, 2 person forms etc etc).

If you are learning kung fu to Fight, Yes and No. besides a form the Sifu needs to have plenty of fighting drills (some from the form and most fight situationals). If you are going to add internal aspects to their fighting, again the Sifu needs to able to teach these aspects. Internal training starts with no relation to the forms, however you can add internal aspects to any form.

A side note:

Whether or not WFH modified any forms is irrellevant. The theorys of any system are the core and define it. How a forms looks is really just personal interpretation and flavor. Over the years all masters added their own personal flavor to their sets, however the theory always remains the same. As long as you use theory when applying the moves.... you are doing the system. We do not and will probably never know exactly what the forms were originally. Everyone over the ages added their own personality, modified what they thought was pertinent for their times, but still adhered to theory. This is what makes Chinese kung fu unique.

ginosifu

[SteveLau]

After I have read rginosifu's second post, I understand the reasoning behind his assertions. So let me explain a bit further of my answer to the topic question. The Tiger/Crane handset is a representative handset of Hung Gar because it has touched the system core materials. Though it does not cover the full width and depth of all, the student who is well versed of it should be able to take what he has acquired to form a separate system. Because the sifu who has taught his students everythings of the handset should include the theories, training methods, and application of the techniques. Thus, the sifu or the student himself can design other training tools out of the Tiger/Crane handset. So there is no need to take materials from other handsets like the other 3 pillars. And that is what I meant when I said the handset by itself has sufficient materials to form a separate system.




KC
Hong Kong

[V.O.R.]

If you are practicing kung fu only for Health and Fitness, Yes. However the Sifu would need to have internal training methods to give to the students besides the form.

Hmmm. Extremely interesting. Sir, can you explain why a sifu would the need to have internal training methods to give to his students?


If you are practicing kung fu just to learn a Form, Yes. However if you are learning form(s) for tournament competition, you probably will need a few more sets (weapon forms, 2 person forms etc etc).

Why would he need to learn a few extra forms to be able to perfect the first one he learned? I'm sorry, I'm only trying to grasp your comments.

Thank you Gino Sifu in advance.

[ginosifu]

(1) Hmmm. Extremely interesting. Sir, can you explain why a sifu would the need to have internal training methods to give to his students?

(2) Why would he need to learn a few extra forms to be able to perfect the first one he learned? I'm sorry, I'm only trying to grasp your comments.



(1) The way I was taught is that internal training is a high level aspect of any system. Taking ernegy (Qi / Chi) and learning how to strengthen it, manipulate it and being able to hit your opponent with internal power. For a lot of people this is not a conceavable thing. When people ask, what the heck I am talking about, normally I will ask If I can hit them (Lightly, not to hard). When I hit them, they usually tell me they felt something wierd bouncing / moving around inside there bodys. This energy transfer is just a small example of Qi / Chi.

There are some systems that do not use this type of power, but there are many that do.

Internal training is aslo a way to bring health to the students. Qi Gong / Chi Gung training is a good for any style, it helps with breathing / improving the immune system.

(2) Only reason people would need any more forms if they wish to compete in tournaments. When competeing, you may want to have a "Empty Hand Form" and a "Weapon Form" or a "2 Person Empty Hand Form" or a "2 Person Weapon Form"

[TenTigers]

in higher ranks, in the event of a tie, the competitor often must perform a second form.

[ginosifu]

in higher ranks, in the event of a tie, the competitor often must perform a second form.

Ahh yes TT I remember those competition days. I am glad that I never tied anyone while doing Kung Gee Fook Fu... I would might have had todo Tiger / Crane as a back up

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

yeah, you never had the "pleasure" of judging the Tiger/Crane division at the WFH Tournaments...

[ginosifu]

yeah, you never had the "pleasure" of judging the Tiger/Crane division at the WFH Tournaments...

I use to go that one years ago.... I should make it to that more often.

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

I use to go that one years ago.... I should make it to that more often.

ginosifu
alas, the moment is gone. It seems that they are no longer holding their tournaments.
Too bad, they were one of our favorite tournaments. Good competition, good friendship. Perhaps they will start them up again. We looked forward all year to them.