How do you teach/correct your student

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgi4bX6BQ0I&feature=share

1. the student's arm is too straight, the elbow shoulde be bent more.

2. whole body power, such as stomping feet to the ground, not just local arm power.

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may be correct posture first or more standing in posture first

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how do you teach in general

comment away.

:)

[SPJ]

since there is a thread about why or hwat made you teach

may as well discuss how you teach.

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LG3MAfTIcQ&feature=related

at first we have to do every thing correctly

speed is gained with proficiency or doing everything right over and over again.

I know that some ppl in the forum do not believe in slow training first.

the thing is that you may do every thing fast in the beginning

but what if you are doing the wrong way?

--

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc6YIKCZgeg&NR=1

some padwork, yes always.

:)

[YouKnowWho]

I know that some ppl in the forum do not believe in slow training first.

the thing is that you may do every thing fast in the beginning

but what if you are doing the wrong way?

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"Slow" by itself is the wrong way. Sometime it's better to be fast and wrong than slow and correct. When you get old, you will have the rest of your life to train slow. You don't need to train slow when you are still young.

When someone punches at your face with lighting speed, you can move back gracefully with perfect body alignment but still being knock out, or you can move back in lighting speed clumsily and get away safely. Which one do you prefer?

People in performance perfer in slow motion to prove that they understand the "perfect body method". People in combat art love to perform in lighting speed to prove that they understand "lighting combat speed".

A slow powerful punch will not hurt anybody. A fast not so powerful punch may hurt someone.

[curenado]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LG3MAfTIcQ&feature=related

at first we have to do every thing correctly

speed is gained with proficiency or doing everything right over and over again.

I know that some ppl in the forum do not believe in slow training first.

the thing is that you may do every thing fast in the beginning

but what if you are doing the wrong way?

--

They need to learn to walk and control their body first. Then maybe they are ready to attempt more.
If they are an over boiled rusher it is more dangerous for them to handle weapons and that is one of the purposes of preliminary training. Control and power so that when speed is applied it will mean something.

[mooyingmantis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LG3MAfTIcQ&feature=related

at first we have to do every thing correctly

speed is gained with proficiency or doing everything right over and over again.

I know that some ppl in the forum do not believe in slow training first.

the thing is that you may do every thing fast in the beginning

but what if you are doing the wrong way?

--

SPJ,

I think the above statement is absolutely correct!

We start slow and precise. Precision is so much harder to develop than speed. I see no reason to emphasize speed and develop bad habits which will have to be corrected.

I also emphasize practicing in front of a mirror as much as possible to observe one's movement's to ensure accuracy.

I know that it is a human tendency for students to forsake proper form for speed. So, in their private practice they will want to practice much faster than I prefer. They will naturally go for speed, so I will continue to emphasize precision.

I have students practice every combination in the following way:
1. In the air slowly for accuracy.
2. On the wooden dummy to strengthen the anatomical striking weapons.
3. On focus mitts to develop striking power.
4. On a non-resisting partner to develop speed.
5. Moving forward and back, side-ward and circling to be able to perform the combo from various angles and as attacks and/or reactionary defenses.
6. In a moving, sparring setting against a resisting partner to learn how to set the combination up.

I typically correct a student's errors by demonstrating the technique for the student. Then as they perform the movement I may adjust their stance or arms through hands on contact. So, I try to instruct/correct by visual, verbal and physical prompting.

Not saying this is the best or only way to do it, but it is my way of teaching.

[YouKnowWho]

My experience may be different from others. One day I was training my Longfist form in slow speed, my Longfist teacher told me, "It's better not to train at all than to train in slow speed". I asked him why and he told me that the moment that my body start to feel comfortable with slow speed, it's very difficult to remove that bad habit after that (slow is bad habit).

The difference between "文(wen) - literary" and "武(Wu) - combat" is in 文(wen), when you answer a 10 queations exam. You start from question 1 and go down. If you have problem with question 3, you can skip it. After you have finished question 10, you can come back to question 3. In combat, when your opponent stabs his dagger at your heart, you will have 1/10 second to react. If you fail, you will be dead no matter how perfect your Shenfa may be.

My SC teacher expected me to learn one move today and then used it tomorrow. I didn't have time to make everything perfect. When my teacher was coaching me in wrestling, one time he told me,

- "Tiao", my body did a perfect Tiao but I was too slow and my opponent alreadly got away. He was so mad at me that night and he won't talk to me.
- "Bon", my body moved in lighting speed with not so perfect body alignment, but succeeded. That night he was so happy and told me that I finally understand what lighting speed was.

I have always believed that I will have the rest of my life to make everything "perfect". It's OK to be not so perfect when I was young. When I was young, I prefect speed and not perfect. When I'm old, I have no choice but to accept my slow speed but I can still make my skill perfect.

Our life is so funny. When we were young, we had all the energy on earth but we don't have time and money to travel. When we get old, we have all the money and time but we don't have energy left so we still can't travel.

[Lucas]

when i do technique break down and work a specific technique i will do both. when i am very beginning learning something, i dont know fast yet but i am learning the movements, i will move slow at the very beginning, first so many repetitions, once i understand the technique i start with speed. perfection can come with speed as well in my experience.

you can teach a student a new technique and after they learn the technique, for 1 technique you should not take very long to learn it, you should be able to learn a basic to 'intermediate' technique in a short session.

you can watch someone with a new technique develop the perfection of that technique over time even with fast speed being trained on a regular basis. because speed is the emphasis doesnt always mean slow will never enter the equation. 9 fast 1 slow, is a simple example. 9 fast times 1 slow time for refine. the technique will become refined even if speed is emphasised. however on the same note, i can see 9 slow and 1 fast as well.

i believe in many methods personally, these both methods i have seen work.

what i think is VERY important, as always, is the student. we all know some people can use speed almost from the beginning and their coordination and accuracy are just naturally part of their physical talent. while some people will NEVER be able to move quickly with accuracy and power. both extreme yes, most of us are in the middle ground.

my sifu always show/execute the technique at first 1 maybe 2 times af full speed and power. you have to learn from that sometimes. when training technique or form the sound behind you was always 'more faster, more faster!!!!'

i think some teachers have the method of how many students you have 1 or 2 will take less hand holding and have speed and power very early. the rest of the people will need to slow down and break it all down to understand it better.

again though, most of us are in the middle. it will depend on the teacher, and what method of teaching they know how to make work.

i personally believe you can use either way, but may need to cater to the student if it is not working for them.

here is an example. when i first learn longfist uppercut i do it slow to learn the movement, then the drills come and its more faster, more power, more faster more power, etc. and I am sloppy. but i am learning the pressure of speed and power. both are cut off because my form is no good. but at the pace of my learning my form catches my speed through repetition, as long as you continue to strive for correct technique you can refine in speed or slow imo. the pace is different and i think your power and fluidity will also develop at different paces depending on how you are learning.

ironic, slow can refine faster than fast...

i am a firm believer that most of us use both fast and slow in the learning process, just in differing quantity.

[EarthDragon]

I am somewhat of a perfectionist. Therefore my students get critiqued constantly.

Proper movement must be learned in a slow maticulous fashion. Once the student has the correct, then and only then do we add speed and power.

all my students have the same look to them when perfroming thier forms, applications and staic postures no matter of body type, background, cordination etc etc.. after a several years then they are allowed to add thier own flavor .

I have students who have been with me for 10+ years and they are exceptional, but this came from teaching the old school traditional way, there is no easy path in our school. I dont give anythign to anyone, they gotta really earn it.
I feel my students are far better than any other students and some teachers in any of the kung fu schools in up state NY.

this is an example of what i am dealing with up here.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhC7Relcq9Q&feature=player_embedded

We have been to the other schools here and there...and i feel they lack the time put in to become really good. i see 5 year red sashes and I just shake my head

[YouKnowWho]

Here are 2 short clips that show how a new student would learn his technique the 1st time. It was rushed on purpose. When you are rushed, you don't have time to think and you just do it and allow your "body" to learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgdvdlBqHWw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgTzSKRtu1M

[Lebaufist]

"With an iron hand in a velvet glove."

"The student will learn as fast as he can."

"Students learn, despite themselves."

"I was right, black pants with red stripes do look cool." :D

[ginosifu]

YouKnowWho:

I know GM Chang was hard you guys but there is a big difference in teaching a new person who has no skills what so ever and teaching to a student who has some idea of how Kung Fu works. Let me explain.

I tried to to teach the way you say, make them go fast and try and force the technique onto them. But for an American adult who has no idea at all of what to do, all this does is confuse them and cause injury. I had students doing basic throws and tearing ligaments / sprains and even broken bones. The idea of training the movement fast is only for a student who has the basics and can do the movement somewhat correctly.

That's why a lot of TCM guys go slow at first teaching basics. Years ago we trained 5-7 days a week 2-3 hours a day. To train someone they way you want with this schedule is possible in a couple of months. However this new world has everyone training 2 times a week, 1-2 hours a day. So to take a person slower at first is smarter nowadays and also safer.

Too many of my old school students lost their MA careers due to to pushing too fast, trying to get them to be great fighters right away. I know this was my own fault because I wanted everyone to have the Martial outlook that I had. Another reason to go slow at first is that because a student makes mistakes and remembers stuff wrong. New students go home and forget what they have learned or forget part of a move and then... try to use their own thinking to fill in the missing technique. Now you have them doing a wrong technique fast.... not good at all.

If you are only talking about hardcore students that practice a lot and have some athletic ability, then yes I believe you can take them a bit fatser.

ginosifu

[YouKnowWho]

teaching a new person who has no skills what so ever
IMO, it has nothing to do with skill but has to do with courage. When a student's body is flying upside down, and if his face turns pale, you know that he does not belong to your class. Teacher always said that a wrestler's body should be like a "bouncing ball", the moment that body lands, the moment that body will get back up without the feeling of pain and fear.


hardcore students

You are right. That kind of training was not designed for every students. That was a special selected group.

I was teaching the University of Texas at Austin informal class. Those students paid by semester. If they quited, they won't get their money back. Since every sememter I always had the maximum number of students (50). Sometime it would be better to let go those who were not too serious so there would be more room for those who were serious. If I was teaching a commercial school, my teaching method could be different.

One semester I had a test. I started very easy for everybody. After 2/3 of the semester was over, one day I asked them to drill "outer bowing". More that 1/3 quited after that. The semester after that, I would asked them to drill "outer bowing" in the 1st months. Since people who could not take serious training would drop out anyway, I prefer them to drop out sooner than later.

[KC Elbows]

I require students to do their one form slow and with every detail, and I remind them of every detail every class until they absorb it.

At the same time, I require them to shadowbox, incorporating techniques from the form, but not performing for, at fighting speed, accepting that they will not always do everything perfect.

Doing it fast in shadow boxing shows them the momentums involved in the actual move, which, when done poorly, will always be difficult to deal with.

Doing the slow form with an eye for detail and the experience of being discombobulated doing it fast gives them an awareness of why forces are managed the way they are in the details of the slow form.

Doing it exact in the slow form and trying to do it fast and right in shadow boxing makes them get it fast and right faster, imo, than not doing it fast and right until they can do it fast and right.

Bad habits are ruthlessly reminded of by me, no exceptions, can't develop a bad habit for years if you develop the right habit.

[brothernumber9]

No disrespect, but except for the last post, most comments have been about how to learn, not how to teach/correct. I'm only an assistant instructor for the regular classes where I train, but i've been doing it long enough to realize that there is no ubiquitous way to teach everyone. ginosifu touched on it. There are multiple reasons now why people take CMA. Some people don't care about fighting, some primarily care about fighting, others are somewhere in between. Depending on what the person's pupose is for training CMA, is what I use to gauge how to approach teaching and/or correcting them. I try to approach a lesson or correction with an emphasis toward the person's own motivation for training. I won't labor on violent applications, for someone who is adverse to it, and vice versa.
In correcting, I will try not to say something in the vein of " No, that's wrong " or " No good, do it agian harder!" I will try to compliment them first on something they did well and then ease into a correction, something like " Good, you show some good speed (or power or whatever principle/aspect), you can also try "this" or add "this" to see if it gives even better speed/power/ etc, let's try."

[bawang]

brutally beat them and yell at them to turn them into MEN

[KC Elbows]

There are multiple reasons now why people take CMA. Some people don't care about fighting, some primarily care about fighting, others are somewhere in between.

If the people who are interested in entraining the martial aspects have to share class structures based around people who are into not entraining the martial aspects, they are not getting their fair share. This is not a juddgement on interest in the martial art for the fun of it, I'm all for that, it's just a clear fact that a mixed class does not allow the people into the technical aspects of fighting to train properly.

They should be separate classes, with the idea that someone who wants to attend the class that is based around conditioning and form, does so just for the workout and the chance to hone the form based on the actual usage they have developed in the class focused on the fighting method.

Just my opinion.

[Lucas]

"If you can dodge a car..."

[KC Elbows]

"There's nothing funny about an asp."

[SenseiShellie]

brutally beat them and yell at them to turn them into MEN

even the female students?

[KC Elbows]

even the female students?

If they're Bawang's students, they may only appear female.

[SenseiShellie]

If they're Bawang's students, they may only appear female.

LOL! glad Bawang isn't my instructor then!

[sanjuro_ronin]

brutally beat them and yell at them to turn them into MEN

Best answer of this whole thread !

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have learned that some can be correct by being supportive and others by being more authoritive and others by being a "drill instructor" but ALL can be correct by contact sparring !

[TaichiMantis]

Best answer of this whole thread !

In fact, we have four women that take the iron shirt class..."Beatings R Us";)

...but hey, they've refused to become men.:rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

how to teach/correct.

If you don't want your students to learn, you teach them 10 new moves ever class and never review those moves. If you want your students to learn, you force them only to use 1 move for the next 6 months.

[SPJ]

If you don't want your students to learn, you teach them 10 new moves ever class and never review those moves. If you want your students to learn, you force them only to use 1 move for the next 6 months.

agreed.

:cool:

[SenseiShellie]

If you don't want your students to learn, you teach them 10 new moves ever class and never review those moves. If you want your students to learn, you force them only to use 1 move for the next 6 months.


agreed.

:cool:

I totally agree with this. However, this is great advice if you don't want them to make mistakes in the first place. If they were making mistakes before you got them, you want to put a positive spin on it. Then the student feels good about it. For example, you could say "You're doing a great job with that! Now, let's work on refining it and making it even better." No hurt feelings...they feel good because they are doing good as a student and you feel good because you get to correct them and make it right. win/win situation if you ask me!

[KC Elbows]

I tend to point out every flaw and point out every talent. I don't reserve advice until later, since the footwork is based on a narrow number of very consistent principles, anytime I see someone forgetting, I point it out, remind them of why, and let them continue in as short a time as possible. Anytime someone really gets some thing, no matter how small, I also point that out, and get them back to training as quickly as possible. I explain that I'm going to always bury them in material, and that they shouldn't feel bad about not doing perfectly at that material. There is simply a point at which one must accept that language study requires immersion, and fighting is merely another language, and the more immersion you endure, the more you'll be able to use what you're shown.

[YouKnowWho]

The day that you tell your students to run their opponents down, the day that your student will have better success in their fight. They will learn

- courage
- confdence
- how to use momentum
- aggressive attitude

The day that you let your opponent to worry about getting hit, the day your opponent will have less chance to hit you. One of my guys always turn his head when his opponent punches at his face. I told him, "If you will be killed, at least you know who kills you." That suggestion seems work pretty good for that student.