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V.O.R.
01-04-2011, 01:14 PM
Howdy Cowboy's...i came across this article and thought it'd be a great one to strike up a conversation about this style.

have fun....

Choy Li Fut’s Secret Weapon

Written by Brian Kuttel

The little-known half fist is one of choy li fut’s most-powerful strikes.
Often called the leopard fist, the half fist is one of the most-potent tools in choy li fut’s arsenal. It is a sharp, cutting fist that can strike a variety of vital areas, including tight ones such as the throat, eyes and solar plexus.

Unfortunately, its effectiveness is often underestimated or overlooked altogether. Modern combat sports teach strikes using the full fist, because they can deliver more power without risking a collapse of the fist’s structure. Because it is seen so rarely, the half fist has been labeled “archaic” and “obsolete.”

However, contrary to popular belief, the half fist is indeed useful in martial application. As with any arsenal, there is a time and place when each weapon can be used to its full potential. The half fist’s potency is directly proportional to the conditioning of the stylist. Following a proper conditioning program can help you reach your half fist potential in a matter of months.

Advanced Kung-Fu
The half fist is taught as an advanced fist in the choy li fut system; the general practitioner can use a full fist or palm strike without risking injury. While considered an advanced fist, the half fist is introduced early in the curriculum so the student can begin developing and conditioning needed for making the fist combat ready. Years of training will not only condition the fist, wrist and forearm for the impact of the strike, but also refine accuracy and coordination.

Conditioning the fist should never be rushed or compromised. Results are cumulative; you get what you give and much like the term kung-fu, attaining the half fist is “hard work.” The accompanying training regimen can be applied by any student of any martial arts style.

Stage 1
Forming the Fist
The first stage of developing the half fist is learning how to form the fist. The common misconception is that the fist should appear flat. Though it looks more attractive, it lacks structure and that will cause the fist to collapse upon impact. The result is injury to the wrist and forearm. The half fist should be formed by pressing the fingertips to the upper pad of the palm. Make sure to leave no gaps. The thumb presses the distal phalange of the index finger, while the pinky finger must press inward. This causes the hand to curve slightly and extend the knuckles. This compression engages the muscles and tendons in the forearm. The striking point of the half fist is the ridge of the secondary knuckles.

Proper structure is conducive to proper conditioning. Once the fist can be held tightly, it must be conditioned for impact by holding a static push-up position, with the flat of the index and middle fingers in contact with the ground, palms facing outward so wrist flexion can be monitored. The practitioner should assume this push-up position on his knees to keep from forcing too much weight over the knuckles and wrists. Hold the fist tightly without letting gaps between the fingers; the fingertips press the upper pad of the palm. The wrist must also be straight and the thumbs must maintain pressure to the index fingers.

Hold the static push-up position for one minute, making sure the hand position remains steady and the wrist is aligned with the forearm. Then relax and massage the knuckles toward the fingertips. Dit da jow may also be applied to expedite recovery. As this becomes easier, shift your weight forward and bend the elbows to concentrate more weight over the half fists. Do two-to-four sets measuring one-to-two minutes. You should soon be able perform 20 push-ups on the half fist.

ImageStage 2
Stabilizing the Fist
The next stage is building the instantaneous impact stability of the fist. Sandbag training is used, because the practitioner can practice the punch and condition the fist without risk of injury. Much like iron palm training, the practitioner must be patient and work lightly during the outset of training. Smart training lessens the chance of damaging the nerves and joints, or disrupting circulation. Even a bruise is a sign of overdoing it. Sandbag training must be done with 100-percent concentration and intention.

When punching the bag, do not let the fist bounce off the training device. Instead, hold it with the intention of pressing through the bag. Start by punching the sandbag, alternating hands every five minutes. Increasing by five minutes each week until punches can be delivered at full speed and power for 20 minutes.

Stage 3
Form Fitting
Another facet of training is forms practice involving the half fist. This helps the practitioner develop speed and connection, as well as an understanding of the various target points. Shadowboxing serves as an excellent approach, because it develops spontaneity in combinations and builds reaction speed for practical application.

The half fist must be used selectively, because it cannot sustain the substantial impact of striking hard targets like the skull or chest. Palm strikes and full fist strikes can be delivered to hard areas of the body with little risk of injury to the hand, wrist or forearm.

The practitioner must use the right tool at the right time. This is never more apparent than in the ring. You won’t find half fists in today’s combat sports, because the strike cannot be properly formed, held or delivered with gloves. Plus, the striking force of the half fist is diminished by the glove.

Reach Advantage
The half fist gives the practitioner as much as a two-inch extension, which is vital in application. As choy li fut grandmaster Doc-Fai Wong says, “Inch long, inch strong.” But imagine the difference two inches can make when delivering a devastating strike. The half fist not only increases reach, but because it is flatter than a full fist it can squeeze into tighter spaces. It also concentrates the amount of force into a smaller striking point, making it perfect for pressure point strikes and vital area attacks.

Choy li fut half fist strikes target the eyes and nose with the cheong-ngan-chui or “snatching the eyes” strike; the throat, sternum, floating ribs and solar plexus with the jin-chui or “arrow fist” strike; and the stomach, groin and kidneys with the loi-yum-chui or “groin punch.”

In self-defense, the half fist can be used in conjunction with many martial concepts. A bridging technique can be used with the cheong-ngan-chui to redirect an oncoming punch and strike the eyes at the same time. The corkscrew motion of the yum-tsop delivers a devastating strike to the groin with not only a sharp striking surface, but also a twisting tearing action that can be used to break free from a grab.

Its potential is based on the amount of conditioning and work the practitioner puts into it. If the training regimen from this article is taken on seriously and consistently practiced, the half fist will be come one of the most important tool in your martial arts arsenal.

hskwarrior
01-04-2011, 01:24 PM
The half fist gives the practitioner as much as a two-inch extension, which is vital in application. As choy li fut grandmaster Doc-Fai Wong says, “Inch long, inch strong.”

Oh wow, I could've sworn Tam Sam created the concept of Extra Inch, Extra Power.

David Jamieson
01-04-2011, 02:08 PM
Outside of a few sifu, I can't think of anyone who actually conditions some of the more obscure handforms to a point of actual usability and I have not seen much in the way of these handforms outside of highly stylized form performance or ritual combat (choreographed).

Also, "secret weapons" do not exist in empty hand. There is no upper hand in hitting someone with a leopard fist over smashing them with a solid hook.

Just being critical. :)

hskwarrior
01-04-2011, 02:25 PM
Also, "secret weapons" do not exist in empty hand. There is no upper hand in hitting someone with a leopard fist over smashing them with a solid hook.

I agree. however, while the solid hook will do its job it connected, it will not mortally wound you. on the other hand, a chop choy (panther fist) to the neck can crush your throat or even kill you. Nothing always hits it mark. But we still train for the possibility that it will.

Still, the functionality of the panther fist is different to that of the solid fist.

There's one HUGE thing missing in this article IMHO. it's what the Chop Choy is all about. I'm not going to fill in the gaps here, but the chop choy isn't your typical strike. there's more BEHIND it than meets the eye. (has nothing to do with the shape of the fists either).

chusauli
01-04-2011, 04:21 PM
Oh wow, I could've sworn Tam Sam created the concept of Extra Inch, Extra Power.

Hey, that's what she said....!

Violent Designs
01-04-2011, 10:38 PM
Tarm Sarm sijo also had like 16 kids or something.

Go figure.

darkie1973
01-04-2011, 11:17 PM
There's one HUGE thing missing in this article IMHO. it's what the Chop Choy is all about. I'm not going to fill in the gaps here, but the chop choy isn't your typical strike. there's more BEHIND it than meets the eye. (has nothing to do with the shape of the fists either).

Is it the stabbing energy/motion?

hskwarrior
01-05-2011, 09:14 AM
and there it is! LOL

chusauli
01-05-2011, 10:34 AM
Tarm Sarm sijo also had like 16 kids or something.

Go figure.

Its not always length, but the skillful use of it. :)

hskwarrior
01-05-2011, 10:52 AM
Hom Sup Chusauli! :D

That sounds like a gung fu technique....lol

Yes, the Chop Choy is like a pen1s...it penetrates, thrusts and retracts over and over again

Jimbo
01-05-2011, 11:01 AM
Outside of a few sifu, I can't think of anyone who actually conditions some of the more obscure handforms to a point of actual usability and I have not seen much in the way of these handforms outside of highly stylized form performance or ritual combat (choreographed).

Also, "secret weapons" do not exist in empty hand. There is no upper hand in hitting someone with a leopard fist over smashing them with a solid hook.

Just being critical. :)

In addition to what hskwarrior said, I will say that if you develop the leopard fist to a level of usability, you have another tool in your arsenal. It adds another option/options; nothing more, nothing less. Like the old saying goes: "To the man who only has a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

hskwarrior
01-05-2011, 11:13 AM
In addition to what hskwarrior said, I will say that if you develop the leopard fist to a level of usability, you have another tool in your arsenal. It adds another option/options; nothing more, nothing less. Like the old saying goes: "To the man who only has a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

exactly. there are all types of ways to develop your panther fist, but its about how dedicated you are to do it. But like i mentioned, the shape of the fist does not make the chop choy *IMHO.

History will tell you it was TAM SAM who took the Chop Choy to new levels for the newer generations. but i feel that too much of Choy Lee Fut has been neglected over the MASS MIGRATION to form practice, forms competition, forms demonstrations. just too much emphasis on the prettiness of forms.

darkie1973
01-05-2011, 11:33 AM
Yes, the Chop Choy is like a pen1s...it penetrates, thrusts and retracts over and over again

Frank,.... you's a funny mutha-f u c k a! :eek: LOL!

hskwarrior
01-05-2011, 11:43 AM
Frank,.... you's a funny mutha-f u c k a! LOL!

LMAO...for real? hahahahaha

darkie1973
01-05-2011, 12:11 PM
Frank,.... gonna make it my mission to get down there and kick it wit you guys this year. White Crane and Choi has a lot in common,... I like to train with 'like-minded' and down-to-earth peoples.

hskwarrior
01-05-2011, 12:27 PM
You're welcome to come through braddah.....i look forward to it.

lkfmdc
01-05-2011, 01:07 PM
only Chinese argue over one inch

hskwarrior
01-05-2011, 02:08 PM
only Chinese argue over one inch

Yeah...you gotta have at least two inches. hahaha

but, seriously, from first knuckle to striking surface or second knuckle is two inches.

Violent Designs
01-05-2011, 04:43 PM
charp chui is beyond a punch, a fist shape.

it carries with it a principle that extends all throughout CLF.

chusauli
01-05-2011, 05:37 PM
Don't forget why there are over 1 billion Chinese. Its all about strong kidneys.

Violent Designs
01-05-2011, 06:04 PM
or they are just *****? all the time.

LSWCTN1
01-06-2011, 04:04 AM
whilst I dont practise charp choi perse, I would like to add to the discussion and explain how it is a legitimate technique...

The late, great Bartley Gorman (the man who neither Mohammed Ali nor Roy Shaw would fight) wrote in his book 'King of the Gypsies' that this fist shape is particularly useful when striking the area just between the mouth and the nose.

If a man with such a proud, true, tradition can verify it then its good enough for me!

In terms of 'lineage', both his grandfather and uncle were known as The King of the Gypsies too...

LoneTiger108
01-06-2011, 08:01 AM
charp chui is beyond a punch, a fist shape.

it carries with it a principle that extends all throughout CLF.

That's interesting, as is this thread to me.

In Lee Shing Family Wing Chun we use a Chaap Jeurng and Gwar Choi/Kuen. It is said to be Lee Shings own logo or salutation he added to all our forms so the fact that it extends throughout CLF is intriguing.

I know he studied many martial arts as a child and was well known and respected by other styles masters, even when he had dedicated himself to the promotion of Wing Chun and Ip Man. A CLF connection makes sense to me.

David Jamieson
01-06-2011, 09:34 AM
whilst I dont practise charp choi perse, I would like to add to the discussion and explain how it is a legitimate technique...

The late, great Bartley Gorman (the man who neither Mohammed Ali nor Roy Shaw would fight) wrote in his book 'King of the Gypsies' that this fist shape is particularly useful when striking the area just between the mouth and the nose.

If a man with such a proud, true, tradition can verify it then its good enough for me!

In terms of 'lineage', both his grandfather and uncle were known as The King of the Gypsies too...

Gorman was a pikey. Of course pro boxers aren't going to fight him. lol :rolleyes:

not taking away from his skills, but I think it's silly to imply Ali or Shaw were afraid to cross hands with the dude, they simply knew that he wasn't ranked and there was no way that he would get to fight either of them without making his way up through the legit ranks first.

just sayin...

CLFNole
01-06-2011, 09:36 AM
I'll bet he would have fought them for a caravan. Perrywinkle blue to be exact. ;)

V.O.R.
01-06-2011, 10:30 AM
alright!

thanks guys. I have a question if you don't mind. How different is the Chaap Choi to that of a boxers jab if any? Also, it is a power strike?

Thanx :)

sean_stonehart
01-06-2011, 11:31 AM
I'll bet he would have fought them for a caravan. Perrywinkle blue to be exact. ;)

Only if it was for his mum... :cool:

sanjuro_ronin
01-06-2011, 12:46 PM
The leopard fist was never one that I trained that much, prefered the PE fist myself, BUT I was taught a formation that I have used a few times.
As opposed to the "standard" fist wit the "knuckles extended"
http://mayoacademy.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Chop-Chop-2-250x300.jpg

I use a regular fist and make contact with the middle knuckle joints in the same fashion, the only difference being they are not "extended" as in the pic above.

The formation lends itself to more circular strikes than linear ones.

CLFNole
01-06-2011, 01:07 PM
Only if it was for his mum... :cool:

Glad someone else likes that movie.

Violent Designs
01-06-2011, 03:35 PM
alright!

thanks guys. I have a question if you don't mind. How different is the Chaap Choi to that of a boxers jab if any? Also, it is a power strike?

Thanx :)

Jab is defined as a lead hand punch, the charp chui is not. That is just one difference...

hskwarrior
01-06-2011, 04:27 PM
In my book, the Chop Choy can be any hand be it lead or reverse. I don't believe its just a reverse hand strike.

Like mr darkie mentioned there's the stabbing motion of the strike. so, IMHO, the chop can be used in the same manner as the jab it should just be mixed with something else as well.

LSWCTN1
01-06-2011, 05:26 PM
Gorman was a pikey. Of course pro boxers aren't going to fight him. lol :rolleyes:

not taking away from his skills, but I think it's silly to imply Ali or Shaw were afraid to cross hands with the dude, they simply knew that he wasn't ranked and there was no way that he would get to fight either of them without making his way up through the legit ranks first.

just sayin...

By definition he was a tinker, but meh!

Ali met with him, but refused him a sparring session or a fight in the lanes (that one I can understand)

Shaw was never ranked either - he never held a boxing licence as far as I am aware. always propogated unlicensed boxing. And cobbles matches too. refused to face Gorman in a knuckles match as the story goes.

Incidently, to be known as the best bare knuckle fighter in the country it would have been Shaw rising through the ranks (as he did) to fight Gorman. Not the other way round

darkie1973
01-07-2011, 08:29 PM
I use a regular fist and make contact with the middle knuckle joints in the same fashion, the only difference being they are not "extended" as in the pic above.

Sounds almost like your talking about a Lama fist and a Kahp choi!?

Violent Designs
01-07-2011, 11:06 PM
Sounds almost like your talking about a Lama fist and a Kahp choi!?

Also could be Baji style stamping fist.

They call it a "bear fist" right?

Vajramusti
01-09-2011, 12:21 PM
gu(r)ng gee kuen-
wing chun's equivalent using wing chun structure, motion and skills- not so secret- key is knowing how to use it. when and how.

joy chaudhuri

Buck Sing Gwoon
01-09-2011, 05:59 PM
In my book, the Chop Choy can be any hand be it lead or reverse. I don't believe its just a reverse hand strike.

Like mr darkie mentioned there's the stabbing motion of the strike. so, IMHO, the chop can be used in the same manner as the jab it should just be mixed with something else as well.

In Buck Sing we favor the charp chui.

I was surprised to read that some people may only use it as a reverse punch... As Frank pointed out the Charp Chui has many uses both lead and rear hand.

Obviously there is a time and place for this technique as with all others but most of our drills and techniques revolve around the use of the Charp Chui and it's vast array of combinations.

hskwarrior
01-09-2011, 11:49 PM
In Buck Sing we favor the charp chui.

personally i favor the chop choy myself. it's similar to what i've always used growing up in the streets prior to learning Hung Sing Kuen. there are like 5 types of Chop Choy...some school's may have more...but on a general scale there are like five. They can be executed from both the front and reverse hands.

I've come to the realization that the original chop choy's used the clenched fist and the panther fist chop choy was found around the form but it was not the primary fist shape for ALL the choy choys like Yum and Yeung chops. others who are currently researching this are coming to the agreement the clenched fist was most likely the original way and that Tam Sam was responsible for evolving it into the panther fist.

My lineage has always used the clenched fist in the Yum and Yeung Chop Choy's but use the panther in things like the Ping Chop.

Dr.Rob
01-10-2011, 07:21 AM
In Buk Sing, I believe we count 8. Think of your fist as the centre humb of an 8 spoked rim. As you release, you have an option of 8 directions. Upon commitment, you change angle to avoid your opponents block. Or attempt of a block.

Front, lead, reverse, back hand? is a starting point, a reference and not important. I believe, to think like this restricts spontaneous reaction.

As for the focal point of the fist. It is no different then a phoneix eye. Twisting and boring. "Extra inch" also refers to your stance not your hand. " Lee Man Chop Choy" is an excellent example of that.

Within all martial arts exist Universal Structure and Fixed Action Patterns. We all have 2 arms and 2 legs. To look at the tricks or special attacks of one sytems is limiting. Talking about it, is even more.

These are my opinions. I care not if you feel your skills are more "street" than me.
Remember the traditonal martial art salute for CMA and you have my opinion.

HSKwarrior...great job on your website.

sanjuro_ronin
01-10-2011, 09:38 AM
Sounds almost like your talking about a Lama fist and a Kahp choi!?

Yep.



Also could be Baji style stamping fist.

They call it a "bear fist" right?

And double yep.

hskwarrior
01-10-2011, 10:24 AM
Lee Man Chop Choy

is that supposed to be Lien Wan Chop Choy?

Thanks Dr Rob

Dr.Rob
01-10-2011, 11:23 AM
Sure...in romanizations I guess. I always pronounced it " Lee Man" I guess. I can't seem to write it in chinese. Since I speak only basic Hong Kongeess.

hskwarrior
01-10-2011, 11:51 AM
rob,


These are my opinions. I care not if you feel your skills are more "street" than me.

uhhhh did i miss something? i didn't see ANYONE telling you anything about the streets and what you specifically can do. did someone erase something? what happened to it?


I always pronounced it " Lee Man" I guess. I can't seem to write it in chinese. Since I speak only basic Hong Kongeess.

yeah, i guess. you are the FIRST buk sing guy i've known to refer to it as LEE MAN. everyone i've ever known calls it Lien Wan. but hey, whatever floats yer boat

CLFNole
01-10-2011, 12:06 PM
"Leen Waan" would be how you would say it in cantonese (Hong Kong) maybe not how you would spell it. Means - "Continuous".

Peace out.

Dr.Rob
01-10-2011, 04:18 PM
No No HSK , I usually add the "street" on any forum the first time I write. Not directed at anything particularly here.

A few times, in the past. When I noticed a new comer post. It seemed to degrade to " an internet challenge". Sort of like a hazing, forum style. So...if I head it off by saying these are my opinions and I haven't carved any stone on it. It seems to leave the trolls out.

Since I have done that over the last few years. Never seen an Internet challenge:D

Thanks CLF Nole...for clearing me up.

HSK when are you to release this book? greatly intrested...Really haven't seen anything since Lee Koon Hung's

hskwarrior
01-10-2011, 06:29 PM
HSK when are you to release this book? greatly intrested...Really haven't seen anything since Lee Koon Hung's

well, i'm still working on it. I will be the first to admit that i am a bad writer. I have passion for it though and i'm doing what i can to improve my writing skills. So i've been going over my chapters to make sure it's all kosher. I should be taking pictures with my sifu soon then arrange the book.

I'm working on it though. however, all the new info i learned i've had to insert it into what i've previously written.

thanks for asking.


No No HSK , I usually add the "street" on any forum the first time I write. Not directed at anything particularly here.

i figured. but i had to reread what I wrote cause i was like where'd he get that from? LOL

Dr.Rob
01-10-2011, 06:52 PM
Can't wait. Have you tried breaking it into a lecture format or a journal perhaps? Then assemble it from there? helps keep your current information fresh.

There is a lot of criticism about disorganized information and poor flow. I have edited a few texts and 1 published book. Happy to help a CLF bro if I can...?

Dr.Rob
01-10-2011, 07:00 PM
Crap no wait...nothing with romanization please

Violent Designs
01-10-2011, 07:08 PM
I want to make a clarification since Frank asked me personally and I didn't explain.

I did NOT imply charp chui is only back hand punch.

I said the jab, found in boxing, is limited to being a pure lead hand punch. A reverse punch is not a jab. Etc, etc.

I was saying the charp chui is not limited to being a lead hand punch, although most of the times it seems to be thrown off the lead hand.

hskwarrior
01-10-2011, 08:09 PM
oh i figured that

TenTigers
01-11-2011, 09:04 AM
I think the beauty of the charp choy is in its extension, and in its non-linear trajectory, which makes it very deceptive. The fact that it does not have to hit hard to inflict damage and pain allows it to be quicker, change direction, come in repeatly, again adding to its deceptive qualities.
In Siu-Lum Kuen, the leopard's mindset is one of craftiness. Quick, sneaky, deceptive, and explosive. And its main weapon is the charp choy.
If one has an understanding of this usage, then replacing the charp choy with a blade, and you have formidible knifefighting technique.

hskwarrior
01-11-2011, 09:28 AM
If one has an understanding of this usage, then replacing the charp choy with a blade, and you have formidible knifefighting technique.

well...Stabbing is usually done in a linear fashion isn't it? Hence the name Stab Punch (Chop Choy). it's not about the fist shape but indeed about the idea of stabbing.

It is a sneaky strike. its a must to completely understand the essence of the strike then work on applying it based on your comprehension of the technique.

nospam
01-19-2011, 12:17 PM
As I use tsap choi, the application is similar to that of a rope dart. It is interchangeable and may be played off either hand. It stabs with speed and when thrown properly it impacts with penetrating force.

My general application isn't to lead with tsap choi; rather, to set it up in 1-2 movements. Bak Hsing uses tsap choi in combination with certain fighting concepts <-- plural. By itself or as a stand alone fist shape, it is not a Bak Hsing tsap choi. This is the primary difference in its use. Tsap choi is a weapon used in a specific manner within a greater context. This context involves the entire body of the practitioner to that of one's opponent.

People fail to appreciate the extent of the difference of the Bak Hsing practitioner. Even the way a pracitioner uses tsap choi is different than a disciple in my lineage. The practitioner may use it well and enjoy success (because of our over-all fighting philosophy), but without the entire picture the value is diminished. So bend them knuckles and strengthen your hands and strike the heavy bag..you do yours and I'll do mine.

nospam
:cool:

hskwarrior
01-19-2011, 02:58 PM
People fail to appreciate the extent of the difference of the Bak Hsing practitioner.

I feel the same exact about fut san hung sing kuen

Satori Science
01-25-2011, 01:24 PM
Tarm Sarm sijo also had like 16 kids or something.

Go figure.

I heard 24 actually :eek:

Satori Science
01-25-2011, 01:27 PM
Chop Choi means "Peircing Jab", not leapard fist. the shape of the fist aids the strike and the penetration, but the chop choi is a result of body mechanics and momentum of delivery. The peirce is qualitatively differnt from a hook, in delivery and effect. All punches are excellent but the effect/damage they cause is differnt.

Violent Designs
01-25-2011, 02:11 PM
I heard 24 actually :eek:

"The longer the extension, the shorter then pull back." :eek: :cool:


Chop Choi means "Peircing Jab", not leapard fist. the shape of the fist aids the strike and the penetration, but the chop choi is a result of body mechanics and momentum of delivery. The peirce is qualitatively differnt from a hook, in delivery and effect. All punches are excellent but the effect/damage they cause is differnt.

Welcome back .... haha

hskwarrior
01-25-2011, 02:55 PM
yeah! its nice to see your back here bro....