levitate

[Hendrik]

many has pm me asking what do I mean by levitate and the different between levitate with grounding.


So, here I open a thread to reply to all at one.

Think about Levitate as a boat floating on the sea. the boat is floating or in neutral gear so it is free to go to any direction without have to undo anything. it could move up and down, forward and backward, and left and right as needed. the left/right, up/down, and forward/backward is the six directional of forces the boat is facing.


Think about Grounding as a boat which has drop the anchor. So if the boat is going to move, it has to remove the anchor. In this way, the boat is "nail" to a position, and that "nailing" or anchor is going to resist the left/right, up/down, and forward/backward. unless one removes the anchor the boat can get tip over if the force it is resisting is bigger then what its anchor be able to deal with.


Now, it doesnt mean Anchor or Grounding is no good, grounding is a temperaly or transient activity, one applied it when needed and right away return to neutral when it is done. instead of make that Grounding a default. That default become a problem as a boat which is anchor and expect to go to every direction and resist all type of force. It doesnt work that way the ship will fall a part.



Now, take a look at the YJKYM, that is a neutral stance for dynamic changes. if it is anchor then as the boat, it will fall a part if it is expected to sail.


For example, if one is doing a YJKYM on top of a Wrestling mat which is some what springy. Now, in order to ground and having a forward pressure and some WCner does. What happen is it is like a boat anchor in a rough sea, person needs to balance itself from the changes of the mat every instant just to keep the YJKYM stable and having that forward pressure. That means without doing anything, one already has an over head. This Grounding and forward action cause and over head or extra effort to keep.

Now, even worse while facing some one who is intending to take you down. his idea is to go down to ground, and he has no over head to keep. but you have to keep your balance on top of you need to face him. So, that grounding and forward action actually working against yourself.


Some then will argue, that grounding keep one strong....etc, well, in reality that is false security. that type of grounding is just a burden. as I mention above grounding is a transient action. IE, when one fajin with falling step one uses the fall drop at that small instant only and then back to neutral. and the fajin can be used for attack or defense as recieving the incoming force..ect.


So, if one train the YJKYM in other mode beside the levitate, it is like learn how to drive with the break on thinking that will give a better control.


All of these are common sense for those who play with Fajin or momentum handling. instead of blindly take others word on certain practice. even it doesnt make sense and cause problem in the long run. Fajin or momentum handling is a dynamic things that cant be solved via static structure effectively.


So, in the case of YJKYM on the top of the springy mat, if it is levitating, it doesnt have to keep that grounding but adapting to the condition meaning make use of/borrow the springy mat's motion to generate momentum for the application such as to power the move or bounce ....at that time etc, instead of an over head of generate a momentum to stablelized the YJKYM while facing an opponent.


IMHO, the whole SLT is practice under the condition of levitate that way it is like practicing how to driving in the real high way; instead of put the car on stop and break and twisting the driving wheel in the parking lot thinking that is practicing driving; which lots of WCners do today.

So, as a summary,

Static structure training is about how to hold on one's body.

Dynamic structure training is about not to hold on one's body in one static structure but making use of every changes adaptively to generate/handle the momentum.
and in order to flow, dynamic structure training is un avoid able.

Dynamic structure is based on levitate state which is the neutral or floating state. If the SLT is a training for the dynamic structure then the YJKYM it is using has to be Levitate instead of standing like other Nam Kuen or Hung Gar's Iron wire type.

and to be in Levitate, six directional force vectors understanding and handling is un avoidable.

Think about that boat float on the sea, it has to face the six directional force vectors at any instant and yet, it doesnt have to use mind to control. it float with it naturally with ease and that is what silence means.



hope this will help you to know what i am talking.

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik-
That is a pretty clear essay, on an important distinction.

joy chaudhuri

[shawchemical]

many has pm me asking what do I mean by levitate and the different between levitate with grounding.


So, here I open a thread to reply to all at one.

Think about Levitate as a boat floating on the sea. the boat is floating or in neutral gear so it is free to go to any direction without have to undo anything. it could move up and down, forward and backward, and left and right as needed. the left/right, up/down, and forward/backward is the six directional of forces the boat is facing.


Think about Grounding as a boat which has drop the anchor. So if the boat is going to move, it has to remove the anchor. In this way, the boat is "nail" to a position, and that "nailing" or anchor is going to resist the left/right, up/down, and forward/backward. unless one removes the anchor the boat can get tip over if the force it is resisting is bigger then what its anchor be able to deal with.


Now, it doesnt mean Anchor or Grounding is no good, grounding is a temperaly or transient activity, one applied it when needed and right away return to neutral when it is done. instead of make that Grounding a default. That default become a problem as a boat which is anchor and expect to go to every direction and resist all type of force. It doesnt work that way the ship will fall a part.



Now, take a look at the YJKYM, that is a neutral stance for dynamic changes. if it is anchor then as the boat, it will fall a part if it is expected to sail.


For example, if one is doing a YJKYM on top of a Wrestling mat which is some what springy. Now, in order to ground and having a forward pressure and some WCner does. What happen is it is like a boat anchor in a rough sea, person needs to balance itself from the changes of the mat every instant just to keep the YJKYM stable and having that forward pressure. That means without doing anything, one already has an over head. This Grounding and forward action cause and over head or extra effort to keep.

Now, even worse while facing some one who is intending to take you down. his idea is to go down to ground, and he has no over head to keep. but you have to keep your balance on top of you need to face him. So, that grounding and forward action actually working against yourself.


Some then will argue, that grounding keep one strong....etc, well, in reality that is false security. that type of grounding is just a burden. as I mention above grounding is a transient action. IE, when one fajin with falling step one uses the fall drop at that small instant only and then back to neutral. and the fajin can be used for attack or defense as recieving the incoming force..ect.


So, if one train the YJKYM in other mode beside the levitate, it is like learn how to drive with the break on thinking that will give a better control.


All of these are common sense for those who play with Fajin or momentum handling. instead of blindly take others word on certain practice. even it doesnt make sense and cause problem in the long run. Fajin or momentum handling is a dynamic things that cant be solved via static structure effectively.


So, in the case of YJKYM on the top of the springy mat, if it is levitating, it doesnt have to keep that grounding but adapting to the condition meaning make use of/borrow the springy mat's motion to generate momentum for the application such as to power the move or bounce ....at that time etc, instead of an over head of generate a momentum to stablelized the YJKYM while facing an opponent.


IMHO, the whole SLT is practice under the condition of levitate that way it is like practicing how to driving in the real high way; instead of put the car on stop and break and twisting the driving wheel in the parking lot thinking that is practicing driving; which lots of WCners do today.

So, as a summary,

Static structure training is about how to hold on one's body.

Dynamic structure training is about not to hold on one's body in one static structure but making use of every changes adaptively to generate/handle the momentum.
and in order to flow, dynamic structure training is un avoid able.

Dynamic structure is based on levitate state which is the neutral or floating state. If the SLT is a training for the dynamic structure then the YJKYM it is using has to be Levitate instead of standing like other Nam Kuen or Hung Gar's Iron wire type.

and to be in Levitate, six directional force vectors understanding and handling is un avoidable.

Think about that boat float on the sea, it has to face the six directional force vectors at any instant and yet, it doesnt have to use mind to control. it float with it naturally with ease and that is what silence means.



hope this will help you to know what i am talking.

Levitation?? really?? Someone clearly dosed your coffee this morning.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik-
That is a pretty clear essay, on an important distinction.

joy chaudhuri

Joy,

Hope that we all share our view and have a good discussion on the subject.

We cant just import Taiji or CLF or Hung gar, WCK is a different type of animal.

[KPM]

Hey Hendrik!

Thanks for the descriptions!

It sounds to me that what you are referring to as "levitate", is what I refer to as "having a floating kwa." Standing in YGKYM with a "floating kwa" means that you have not "locked in" the kwa by rolling the hips forward and flattening the lower back....like a lot of WCK people do. Letting the kwa "float" avoids the slumped/humped over posture you see so often in WCK as well. By letting the kwa "float" I feel I am ready to move in any direction and respond as needed.....moving with the "six directional forces." Not "locking" the kwa also allows one to use waist action in producing Fa Jing...kind of like snapping a whip. I can put both hands flat on my dummy with arms extended and "hit" the dummy without drawing my hands back or losing contact with the surface of the dummy. Am I close to what you are talking about? :)

[Hendrik]

Hey Hendrik!

Thanks for the descriptions!

It sounds to me that what you are referring to as "levitate", is what I refer to as "having a floating kwa." Standing in YGKYM with a "floating kwa" means that you have not "locked in" the kwa by rolling the hips forward and flattening the lower back....like a lot of WCK people do. Letting the kwa "float" avoids the slumped/humped over posture you see so often in WCK as well. By letting the kwa "float" I feel I am ready to move in any direction and respond as needed.....moving with the "six directional forces." Not "locking" the kwa also allows one to use waist action in producing Fa Jing...kind of like snapping a whip. I can put both hands flat on my dummy with arms extended and "hit" the dummy without drawing my hands back or losing contact with the surface of the dummy. Am I close to what you are talking about? :)



exploring toward that direction is good since Kwa is a part of the body.

Further investigation is needed because Kwa and other parts of the body such as tail bone...etc are inter-related. and loosing the Kwa could be done even with the flattening the lower back...etc. also it is related to which breathing phase one is in. and flattening the lower back ect are not a hinderance to levitate. one can have a flattening of the lower back and still loose because the whole body has aligned up.


I called it levitate because it feels like levitate when every joints are not hold on to something or lock up.

and only at this state that the "snake engine" activate because every joints sync with other joints and make up of the whole body without and break down in between --- ideally from the toes to the finger tip.


also, Qi flow will come into the picture once the joins are loosing up.




As for fajing, what you done is using the waist torque to generate the momentum. CLF do that Chen Taiji do that, that is one way of use human body.

different style of TCMA has different momentum generation also complex momentum generation as I have mention in other of my post on Hino Akira. WCk's inch jin is more complex then that thus it is capable of smaller visible motion then the waist torque type which has to deal with the innertial and also pick up speed which require bigger movement before the waist whip.


So, levitate is a very basic but critical basic to enter into dynamic structure or make the art alive. or turn on the engine of the SLT.

[YouKnowWho]

Is there any way that we can see some clips about this?

Someone said that clips are only good to demo external skill, internal skill cannot be seen which I'm still not convincing yet. We can see sticky, yield, follow, borrow force, ... clearly in many clips. Even "a feather cannot land" is not that hard to demo.

[t_niehoff]

I think the gist of what Hendrik wrote to be a fairly good description of the core WCK body mechanic.

Part of Hendrik's problem is that in describing/explaining it he is all over the place. He often use very poor word choice IMO. Terms like "levitation", "6 directional force vectors", etc. don't help explain to describe things -- they only obfuscate. This could be a language barrier (English is his 4th or 5th language) or simply confused thinking.

A different part of Hendrik's problem is that with all his talk about why this or that mechanic is "bad" only misses the point. There are no bad mechanics. Mechanics are paired with a task -- you use your body a certain way to do a certain task. If you use inappropriate mechanics for the task, you won't be able to perform the task for perform it well. He should instead focus on what you want to do in WCK and why you NEED these specific WCK mechanics to do that. Then you immediately grasp why other mechanics will not be appropriate.

[Hendrik]

Part of Hendrik's problem is that in describing/explaining it he is all over the place. He often use very poor word choice IMO. Terms like "levitation", "6 directional force vectors", etc. don't help explain to describe things -- they only obfuscate.



perhaps you are right.

Perhaps due to you have not attain these state that you dont know what it is.

Why is it called Levitate is clearly describe in my previous post. It is a name for something it is not intending for explain anything. Such as Apple is apple unless one has tasted apple; no matter how explain it one simply cant get it ;because it is an experience not a mind simulation.



A different part of Hendrik's problem is that with all his talk about why this or that mechanic is "bad" only misses the point. There are no bad mechanics.

Mechanics are paired with a task -- you use your body a certain way to do a certain task.

If you use inappropriate mechanics for the task, you won't be able to perform the task for perform it well.

.

you are contradicting yourself.

There are certainly bad mechanics like bend over from the front sit to the back sit to pick up something in the back sit.

sure, it does the job of picking up something but it is in effective and problematic.




He should instead focus on what you want to do in WCK and why you NEED these specific WCK mechanics to do that.

Then you immediately grasp why other mechanics will not be appropriate

My be you need to re read my previous posts.

[t_niehoff]

perhaps you are right.

Perhaps due to you have not attain these state that you dont know what it is.

Why is it called Levitate is clearly describe in my previous post. It is a name for something it is not intending for explain anything. Such as Apple is apple unless one has tasted apple; no matter how explain it one simply cant get it ;because it is an experience not a mind simulation.


But you are not "levitating" -- levitate means "to rise or float in or as if in the air especially in seeming defiance of gravitation." http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/levitate

So, is that what is REALLY happening? Is anyone floating in the air in defiance of gravity? No.

I KNOW -- and have experienced -- what you are trying to describe. But, "levitate" is a very poor way to describe it.

And it is disingenuous to argue that "if you haven't tasted it, then no one can explain it." If it can't be explained, then don't try! To try to explain it when it can't be explained is pointless. And, if it is difficult to explain or describe, using inappropriate words like "levitate" won't help you get your point across -- it will only make it more difficult to get your point across.



you are contradicting yourself.

There are certainly bad mechanics like bend over from the front sit to the back sit to pick up something in the back sit.

sure, it does the job of picking up something but it is in effective and problematic.


There is no contradiction. You are describing inappropriate mechanics for a particular task -- but those mechanics may be fine for some other task. That is my point: mechanics and task go hand-in-hand. So, if you want to talk about using mechanics, you also need to talk about the task.



My be you need to re read my previous posts.

I have. That is why I pointed out that you keep separating mechanics from task.

[Wayfaring]

Here is the standard definition of the word "levitate" from dictionary.com

lev·i·tate   /ˈlɛvɪˌteɪt/ Show Spelled
[lev-i-teyt] Show IPA
verb, -tat·ed, -tat·ing.
–verb (used without object)
1. to rise or float in the air, esp. as a result of a supernatural power that overcomes gravity.
–verb (used with object)
2. to cause to rise or float in the air.

My main issue with the claims of the OP is that there is no "technique", "fa jing", "power generation", or any other method of training WCK that will legitimately cause someone to rise or float in the air.

However, we can see this type of thing in many Hollywood movies where this type of thing is performed by stunt wires.

But nowhere in the realm of reality is anything like this even something to be considered in conjunction with training a realistic martial art.

So refute this logically if you want, Hendrick.

And Sihing73, if you're going to delete this post then leave up here your logic so anybody who wants to participate in this forum will see up front the type of thinking involved with the moderation of this forum.

Thanks.

[Wayfaring]

Why is it called Levitate is clearly describe in my previous post. It is a name for something it is not intending for explain anything. Such as Apple is apple unless one has tasted apple; no matter how explain it one simply cant get it ;because it is an experience not a mind simulation.


If you can't understand the English language enough to pick the correct word in your description of things, and you are too stubborn to receive feedback from others who do understand the English language, then my suggestion would be that posting on internet forums is not something you should be doing.

Or I guess the other option is that we could find a place where this is acceptable and delete all the other postings from people who don't agree.

[Vajramusti]

Words can be assigned meanings in quite different ways- connotation, denotation, implication, explication etc—in addition to epistemological differences in perspectives.

Thus nibbhana or nirvana is a state that is to be achieved or purely subjective perceptions to be dropped.

Snake can be a particular kind of a reptile (biology), it can be symbolic (evil), descriptive- a toy, functional-snake like.. a motion-non linear or energy distribution etc.

Dictionary definitions are ok for denotation.. they have their shortcomings in connotation. Yet words have to be used in chat lists- so if interested in serious conversation- one has to try and understand the perspective of the word user. despite the differences..

Levitation in the sense that Hendrik is using it- is something according to him that is experienced if the guidelines that he provides are used. Then it becomes an empirical issue for that person- it can be pointed to but not denoted. You feel it or you don’t.

When you are in ygkym and the skeletal structure is well coordinated and the joints opened up- the claim is in part that it is equivalent but not the same as the standing stake postures of taiji, I chuan etc.

Hendrik no longer fights and what he talks about is not enough for fighting- one still needs to be clear on mechanics, structure, timing, physical and mental training, clearing one’s head etc.

Joy Chaudhuri

[chusauli]

Perhaps "riding" is a better word than "levitating".

[Hendrik]

shoot, that's all it is, here I was thinking it was something much more, when it's just relaxing and allowing your weight to sink to the ground naturally making adjustment in body structure to make this optimum. Same stuff that zan zhuang develops over time:)


The biggest problem IMHO is people keep thinking the general Southern TCMA Standing in horse stance, weight sink to ground = Zan Zhuang.

In the reality those two are 1000000000000 miles away.

BTW Zan Zhuang the proper type which is well train doesnt sink weight to the ground. and also the so called naturally making adjustment or just do it if there is an application just mean one does it randomly.

[kung fu fighter]

The biggest problem IMHO is people keep thinking the general Southern TCMA Standing in horse stance, weight sink to ground = Zan Zhuang.

In the reality those two are 1000000000000 miles away.

BTW Zan Zhuang the proper type which is well train doesnt sink weight to the ground. and also the so called naturally making adjustment or just do it if there is an application just mean one does it randomly.

here is something that might interest you

"Hellebrandt (1940) was one of the first to demonstrate that even the erect standing posture is not literally static. “Standing,” she concluded, “is, in reality, movement upon a stationary base.” Her experiments using scales and a reaction board revealed that the center of gravity did not remain motionless above the base of support, no matter how still the subject attempted to stand, but moved forward, backward, and sideward. This motion indicated that the subjects were constantly swaying. When the swaying was prevented by artificial means, there was a tendency to faint. Thus the involuntary swaying was seen to serve the purpose of a pump, aiding the venous return and ensuring the brain of adequate circulation for retaining consciousness.
--Nancy Hamilton, et al., Kinesiology: Scientific Basis of Human Motion, 8e, (2008, McGraw-Hill), p. 394

In the same book, the author reviews analysis of muscular activity in “erect standing” or “normal standing,” which resembles the beginning taiji posture (legs shoulder-width apart, arms at sides). Beginning with the muscles of the foot: “None of the intrinsic musculature is active during normal standing but become active in the push-off for walking or rising on the toes.” The legs: “The posterior calf muscles are more active than the anterior ones. Any swaying forward or backward produces compensatory muscle action to bring the body back to the vertical balance position.” The thigh and hip: “Very little activity occurs in the thigh muscles during relaxed standing. Swaying produces alternating burst of activity in the gluteus medius and tensor fasciae latae. . . .The iliopsoas is constantly active, apparently to prevent hyperextension at the hip joint.” The spine: “There is very slight activity in the sacrospinalis or abdominal muscles, depending on the relation of the line of gravity to the spinal column. Activity is exhibited in one or the other of the two sets of muscles. Slight to moderate back muscle activity is more likely than abdominal muscle activity.” And upper extremities: “The integrity of the joints in the passively hanging extremity is assisted by low-grade activity in a number of muscles. The serratus anterior and the fibers of the trapezius support the shoulder girdle, and the supraspinatus resists the downward dislocation of the humerus. There appears to be no activity in the muscles crossing the elbow or wrist joints when the arm hangs passively.” (ibid., p. 393)"

[YouKnowWho]

So, if you want to talk about using mechanics, you also need to talk about the task.

Agree 100% there. Without understanding what problem Hendrik tried to solve, it's very difficult to understand what he was trying to say.

Simple question, "How to kill your opponent by using levitation"?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik no longer fights and what he talks about is not enough for fighting- one still needs to be clear on mechanics, structure, timing, physical and mental training, clearing one’s head etc.





Joy,

You are right I dont fight anymore. Working toward to become an Arhat .. hahaha



as for mechanics, structure, timing, physical, and mental, IMHO, from my understanding of the ancient, as soon as one handle the six direction force vectors and having awareness at every instant, the mechanics....etc issue is solved in the root level.

six directional force vectors concep always comes with a trajectory path which means it consist of the past, present, and future trend.

IE one doesnt have to know how the car moves and if it is even a car or a bus, as soon as one solve the momentum/force vectors issue at the particular contact instant one solve the contact point issue without has to deal with lots of mechanics...issue. bottom line, it is that particular contact point one is interested in.

so, the snake engine is to make sure one has all the handle or knob for the handling.

and levitation means one needs to be in neutral state to be able to response in the instant, otherwise one is always having a lag time which is too late to solve the present issue due to one always has to undo something before one can do something.


so,
What happen is the technology chop up the mechanics, structure.....etc to frame by frame, similar to a movie is consisted of frame by frame and if one solve the issue frame by frame then one deal with the whole movie right there at each frame.


Thus, the above type of paradigm is a different type of paradigm which the internal artists such as WXZ and other ancient artists into if describe in our modern term. That is when they said, K1 is not the root, waist is not the master.... formless..... etc everything turn into a flow in this paradigm and only awareness, force vectors balancing, and a mind-body which is capable to handle the awareness, force vectors balancing matter. it is beyond shape or form because everything is dynamics.


And once one get into this paradigm one no longer will ask if the weight is place in K1 or heel...... in YJKYM...etc

why? take a look at human body, in the inhale phase the spine curve one way and the other way in the exhale phase. so, that spine curving will cause the weight to shift from K1 to heel or back....etc that is nature. unless one is dead otherwise the weight has to move. not to mention when the hand moves then other momentum issues involve.

and if one trying to fix into one point then one needs other force vectors to compensate for the fixing. and this is extra effort also it great problem of lag time because one always has to undo this compensation in response to what one face.

[Hendrik]

Thanks for sharing. It is a good one to read.

The title Levitate could be any words, it is what the idea points to that is the key. it is the time to enter the era of dynamic flow structure.

I was coaching another WCner a few days ago on YJKYM in south east asia via video conference. and at one point he told me it seems that the body never still but everything is moving....

my answer to him is dont you know your body is alive? and only when you use a live body to practice the SLT you have an alive SLT. otherwise it is dead --- just mimic-ing something where you dont even know your own body. SLT means pay attention to all those details which is alive instead of fixing your weight in your heel....etc and practicing as a mechanical dead robot but expecting to be a living tiger.





here is something that might interest you

"Hellebrandt (1940) was one of the first to demonstrate that even the erect standing posture is not literally static. ............

[Hendrik]

Perhaps "riding" is a better word than "levitating".



Robert,

As you know, words are just words, those are just a symbol it can be called anything.

For me, riding is not accurate because when the person is at the state, one is actually "floating".

as it describe here in other IMA classic
http://www.taichicentral.com/tai-chi-central-news-journal/files/1de5f0941f950372a01eac473515b02d-20.php

Thus, as I told others in this forum, go get the process, attain it and tell the world what it is. Everyone can experiment with it and know what it is.

[Hendrik]

Agree 100% there. Without understanding what problem Hendrik tried to solve, it's very difficult to understand what he was trying to say.

Simple question, "How to kill your opponent by using levitation"?



Do you know why is it a need of neutral gear in a car? it doesnt do anything right?


I am not trying to solve anything I am presenting what the ancient TCMA IMA practice which is not known to the general public in the west with a western language.

Namely, Levitate = float = virtue ground = the point where the force vectors from the six direction in the 3 D axis cancel and balance each others.


The bottom line is if one doesnt get close to this state Qi layer will not surface and thus one will not experience Qi's flow.

[YouKnowWho]

I am not trying to solve anything I am presenting what the ancient TCMA IMA practice which is not known to the general public in the west with a western language.

My question is:

- Why do I need to know levitation?
- If I don't know levitation then what problem that I'll have?
- Can levitation enhance my combat skill?

[taai gihk yahn]

Perhaps "riding" is a better word than "levitating".

i would suggest "buoyancy"...

[Hendrik]

i would suggest "buoyancy"...


Sure, why not? in that direction...

just not using the old term like.... Grounding, loose up... words anymore.. those are misleading IMHO.

The paradigm got to be shifted or else stuck.

more people needs to get into these and tell the world what the heck is it. Interpetation doesnt do any good but misleading.

[Hendrik]

My question is:

- Why do I need to know levitation?
- If I don't know levitation then what problem that I'll have?
- Can levitation enhance my combat skill?

you certainly have not read my posts.

[Hendrik]

So, this levitate stuff are a part of the first SLT kuen kuit which is passed down by Yik Kam.



1, 集意会神平肩襠
Collect the Intention/Attention union with the awareness in the Equal Shoulder stance

http://wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1273


These stuffs are what one is coach into experimenting and experiencing in that equal shoulder stance. in this stanza, in one part one is lead or coach into the silence to know what is Awareness and one's mind/intention and the other part is to know one's body.


It is not even anything deep. but the first step to begin the SLT training.


In my understanding, this is a pre 1840 deal when training TCMA, so why is it 1840 is a big deal? because 1840 is the era of the opium war. the chinese lost, and China become a partial colonist where traditional culture good of bad become the target of western judgement vedict in the name of NOT SCIENTIFIC. Yes, that is the same term used since then. and a pre meditative culture or civilization put down and destruction begun. The second of this type of incident is 1965 when Mao using the Russian way to destroy the chinese civilization for his own political agenda.


I never say everything in the old Chinese tradition is great ;but there are some thing which is even the west doesnt have it be it in today's high tech era; due to the tranditional Chinese is living in a different paradigm ;and thus will have different solution looking from different angle, where some not as good but some much superior solution then the west. That is a reality. if one look at the writing of post 1840 and 1965 one would not see these type of content.


So, here we took a something the WCK ancestor practice in pre 1840 and examine it with the modern high tech era's eyes. To see what is it they know pre 1840 and got almost wipe out. This is just the first baby step of ---- Knowing your own mind and body before begining the SLT.

It is very possible that the following is how the ancestors in the red boat every coach by YWC herself. it goes directly to the human way.





The following are the description of the six directional force vectors via forward/backward pair, left/right pair/ up/down (discending) pair. each pair being introduce one at a time and then merge all of them together to start SLT. the falling step type of momentum is introduce within the up/down pair. the left/right pair introduce a spiral /torqe type of momentum......



2, 双手前起分陰阳
Both hands raise forward duality is form.


3, 左脚跘出有善惡, 右跟曲勁紧收藏
Left Leg trips out there is a aiding and counter effect. Right heel with spiral force tightly stored.


4, 气聚丹田督脉降
Qi activity in Dan Dien and the Du Medirian while the spine is loosely discending.



Thus, one is prepared on the mind/body force vectors before begining the SLT. And when one is practicing the SLT one already has experienced with the mind, body, six directional force vectors which cover the 3 D. The SLT is then used as a vehicle to further experiments. handling, and testing one's skill " buoyancy" in the 3 D force/momentum field.


So the first four stanzas cover the basic of the basic and if this is missing then the basic or operating manual is lost.

[Wayfaring]

Dictionary definitions are ok for denotation.. they have their shortcomings in connotation. Yet words have to be used in chat lists- so if interested in serious conversation- one has to try and understand the perspective of the word user. despite the differences..


I completely disagree.

If a poster is trying to get across an idea in a forum, then the responsibility to communicate that idea lies with the person communicating. It is not the case where someone can spew out of their mouth the first thing that comes into their head regardless of accuracy and everyone else hearing it or reading it has the burden of translating. There is a responsibility in comminicating ideas that involves a diligent effort to communicate to an audience.

If someone offers a better word, the proper response would be to look up that word if one doesn't understand it, and say "thank you" if it is better suited, or to explain more fully if it is not. Here, instead, we see a stubborn and egotistical reponse saying "my meaning of levitate was perfect as stated".

If someone is not willing to do that, then why should I invest any time in trying to understand what they are saying?

[Sihing73]

I completely disagree.

If a poster is trying to get across an idea in a forum, then the responsibility to communicate that idea lies with the person communicating. It is not the case where someone can spew out of their mouth the first thing that comes into their head regardless of accuracy and everyone else hearing it or reading it has the burden of translating. There is a responsibility in comminicating ideas that involves a diligent effort to communicate to an audience.

If someone offers a better word, the proper response would be to look up that word if one doesn't understand it, and say "thank you" if it is better suited, or to explain more fully if it is not. Here, instead, we see a stubborn and egotistical reponse saying "my meaning of levitate was perfect as stated".

If someone is not willing to do that, then why should I invest any time in trying to understand what they are saying?

If that is truly how you feel, that your time is wasted, then why bother posting at all? Others here are getting something from what is posted, if you are unable or unwilling to do so then that is your choice. However, others apparently do not feel the same way.

Terms are always open to interpretation, particularily in WC as words and terms do not translate directly into English or whatever your mother tongue may be.

[YouKnowWho]

others apparently do not feel the same way.
Unfortunately I feel the same way as Wayfaring does. The levitation is not WC term. It's not Taiji term either. It's not even IMA term. It was a term that only used by Hendrik. Without futher clearfication, Wayfaring and I won't be able to know what Hendrik was talking about (does it matter?). The word "飄(Piao) - float" and "涮(Shun) - raisin" are both used in TCMA but that doen't seem to be what Hendrik was talking about.

[Hendrik]

Unfortunately I feel the same way as Wayfaring does. The levitation is not WC term. It's not Taiji term either.

It's not even IMA term. It was a term that only used by Hendrik. Without futher clearfication, Wayfaring and I won't be able to know what Hendrik was talking about (does it matter?).

The word "飄(Piao) - float" and "涮(Shun) - raisin" are both used in TCMA but that doen't seem to be what Hendrik was talking about.


if you read my previous post such

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1072790&postcount=21

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1072791&postcount=22

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1072796&postcount=25


how difficult is it to find out?

But if you like to think you know and expect I am to present what you think you know, then that is your view issue not mine.



Levitate in chinese is 浮置. Float in chinese is 漂浮 both with 浮 . they both are describing what it is in that state.

taai gihk yahn who knows taiji is nice enough to propose "buoyancy" based on his experience which I am ok with it. and buoyancy in chinese is 浮力. and notice 浮 is there.


So what is the problem when I said anyone in that state feel like "floating" in my above post to Robert?


So, why is it so important to complain all about words and words? Use any words one likes I care least of that. I am sharing what exist and it is absolutely not Grounding. and the rest how one wants to name it I careless.


Finally, it sure is not a translate IMA term but anyone who get close or get to that state will recognize it and if there is no such term in English yet. well, make one now. But if one is doesnt get to that state yet. then one doesnt know and time to go experiment on it.

Read the following and it is there
http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1072724&postcount=1



So if you really really really want to dig into TCMA IMA, if one implement the following in one single instant,

------------------
一舉動周身俱要輕靈 尤須貫串 氣宜鼓盪 神宜內斂
無使有缺陷處 無使有凹凸處 無使有斷續處


or


As soon as there is movement, the whole body should be fluid, agile, and light
having all parts connected like a string of pearls. The energy is arousing, pure, and full.
The spirit is gathered and refined. No place for gaps or deficiencies. No place for unevenness.
No place for disconnection.


---------------------

At that instant, one will experience Levitate or "floating". So do you want me to

post

As soon as there is movement, the whole body should be fluid, agile, and light
having all parts connected like a string of pearls. The energy is arousing, pure, and full.
The spirit is gathered and refined. No place for gaps or deficiencies. No place for unevenness.
No place for disconnection.

where your mind could read and lost in words or just simply tell you at that state one is feeling " levitate"? I am fine with both.



KFF,
the whole body should be fluid, agile, and light + string of pearls is the snake engine.

No place for gaps or deficiencies no place for unevenness no place for disconnection is the 6D force vectors balancing.

The energy is arousing, pure, and full. The spirit is gathered and refined. is Awareness and Qi...

[YouKnowWho]

Why don't you just call it "dynamic rooting" instead?

[Hendrik]

Why don't you just call it "dynamic rooting" instead?



What root?

where in the world the IMA said it is a Root?

-------------------------------------
一舉動周身俱要輕靈 尤須貫串 氣宜鼓盪 神宜內斂
無使有缺陷處 無使有凹凸處 無使有斷續處


or


As soon as there is movement, the whole body should be fluid, agile, and light
having all parts connected like a string of pearls. The energy is arousing, pure, and full.
The spirit is gathered and refined. No place for gaps or deficiencies. No place for unevenness. No place for disconnection.

------------------------------------

You see, let's not trying to use our mind to guess what it is not.

as I says again and again, attain the state then describe it with you own words and any words. this is not the realm for guessing. one needs to attain the state to play there.

otherwise it is doing a dis-service and mislead the heck out of others.


I am trying to expand the horizon into the dynamic structure realm instead of falling back to the static structure and rooting...etc.

A car doesnt root it moves, a plane doesnt root it takes off and fly. so it is time to move on.

[GlennR]

Unfortunately I feel the same way as Wayfaring does. The levitation is not WC term. It's not Taiji term either. It's not even IMA term. It was a term that only used by Hendrik. Without futher clearfication, Wayfaring and I won't be able to know what Hendrik was talking about (does it matter?). The word "飄(Piao) - float" and "涮(Shun) - raisin" are both used in TCMA but that doen't seem to be what Hendrik was talking about.

I agree as well.... but it doesnt really matter what anyone thinks.

Hendrick tells all how he wants to present his case/theories/agendas, call them what you like, to help all understand WC.... but ultimately when asked a simple question such as "will this help my combat skills and how?" he patronsingly responds "read my past posts" as if the questioner is an idiot.

Yet when someone, for example Theo (just as a case) asks a question the response is something like "thanks for the input into this discussion" or something similar.

He's selective on who/how he answers posts to push his agenda... simple as that

And the really sad thing is, there might be some young person who wants to learn real WC, buys his nonsense, and then wastes maybe 10 years to find out he has nothing to offer in a practical sense.

That, is thetrue tragedy of his ramblings

GlennR

[YouKnowWho]

What root?

where in the world the IMA said it is a Root?
You will need "rooting" for everythig. When you lie down, sit, or stand, you have "static rooting". When you walk, run, and jump, you have "dynamic rooting". No MA can exist without either "static rooting" or "dynamic rooting".

[Hendrik]

you are sure to give you opinion.


The following is an example of the answer for your
"will this help my combat skills and how?"
in a classical TCMA IMA way

http://www.taichicentral.com/tai-chi-central-news-journal/files/1de5f0941f950372a01eac473515b02d-20.php


-----------------------------------------------------------
原註云
Addendum (attributed to Yang Lu-Chan (1799-1872)

此係武當山張三丰祖師遺論
This treatise was left to us by the founder, Zhang Sanfeng.

欲天下豪傑延年益壽
offering the promise of longevity to the whole world,

不徒作技藝之末也
It is not just for trivial martial skill which is consider to be the the least important.



----------------------------------------------------------



I agree as well.... but it doesnt really matter what anyone thinks.

Hendrick tells all how he wants to present his case/theories/agendas, call them what you like, to help all understand WC.... but ultimately when asked a simple question such as "will this help my combat skills and how?" he patronsingly responds "read my past posts" as if the questioner is an idiot.

Yet when someone, for example Theo (just as a case) asks a question the response is something like "thanks for the input into this discussion" or something similar.

He's selective on who/how he answers posts to push his agenda... simple as that

And the really sad thing is, there might be some young person who wants to learn real WC, buys his nonsense, and then wastes maybe 10 years to find out he has nothing to offer in a practical sense.

That, is thetrue tragedy of his ramblings

GlennR

[GlennR]

This is an example of the answer for your

"will this help my combat skills and how?"

in a classical TCMA IMA way

http://www.taichicentral.com/tai-chi-central-news-journal/files/1de5f0941f950372a01eac473515b02d-20.php


-----------------------------------------------------------
原註云
Addendum (attributed to Yang Lu-Chan (1799-1872)

此係武當山張三丰祖師遺論
This treatise was left to us by the founder, Zhang Sanfeng.

欲天下豪傑延年益壽
offering the promise of longevity to the whole world,

不徒作技藝之末也
It is not just for trivial martial skill which is consider to be the the least important.



----------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for that example, which proves my point.

Could you highlight where it mentions improving his combat skills there??

[imperialtaichi]

My Tai Chi teacher (Wei Shu Ren, Beijing) described as "feeling like sitting on a swing."

I don't recall my KLWC teacher (Leung Wun Zi, Guangzhou) mentioning anything similar tho.

[GlennR]

My Tai Chi teacher (Wei Shu Ren, Beijing) described as "feeling like sitting on a swing."

I don't recall my KLWC teacher (Leung Wun Zi, Guangzhou) mentioning anything similar tho.

Hi John

Id be interested on your take on the idea of comparing WC to Tai Chi..... similar or vastly different?
Or somewhere in between
Regards
GlennR

[YouKnowWho]

原註云
Addendum (attributed to Yang Lu-Chan (1799-1872)

此係武當山張三丰祖師遺論
This treatise was left to us by the founder, Zhang Sanfeng.

欲天下豪傑延年益壽
offering the promise of longevity to the whole world,

不徒作技藝之末也
It is not just for trivial martial skill which is consider to be the the least important.

- May I ask why you are promoting "longevity" in a TCMA forum?
- Do we really need TCMA for "longevity"?
- Do you think that "trivial martial skill which is consider to be the the least important" is the right attitude?

It's very sad that TCMA guys have to face the challenge from the MMA world to prove that TCMA has great value in it. It's even more sad to face the challenge from his own TCMA brother who tries to lead TCMA futher away from "combat reality".

[Hendrik]

Thanks for that example, which proves my point.

Could you highlight where it mentions improving his combat skills there??

Isnt the answer is obvious?

[GlennR]

Isnt the answer is obvious?

No its not

[Hendrik]

My Tai Chi teacher (Wei Shu Ren, Beijing) described as "feeling like sitting on a swing."

I don't recall my KLWC teacher (Leung Wun Zi, Guangzhou) mentioning anything similar tho.



John,

Could you please elaborate what is "feeling like sitting on a swing" means? Thanks!


As for who mention what, my take is it is all about the state of attainment.


However, if the art itself is not par or match up to the level then the depth of the art is obvious.

[Hendrik]

- May I ask why you are promoting "longevity" in a TCMA forum?
- Do we really need TCMA for "longevity"?
- Do you think that "trivial martial skill which is consider to be the the least important" is the right attitude?

It's very sad that TCMA guys have to face the challenge from the MMA world to prove that TCMA has great value in it. It's even more sad to face the challenge from his own TCMA brother who tries to lead TCMA futher away from 'combat reality".



How is my Kung fu compare with Yang Lu-Chan (1799-1872)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Lu-ch%27an
How is your Kung fu compare with him? May be you are better then him?

However,
For me, I am 10000 miles away lower then him. so I dont talk anything he doesnt mention.

[GlennR]

How is my Kung fu compare with Yang Lu-Chan (1799-1872)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Lu-ch%27an
How is your Kung fu compare with him? May be you are better then him?

However,
For me, I am 10000 miles away lower then him. so I dont talk anything he doesnt mention.

Here we go again.... name dropping to push your agenda and avoid the question

[YouKnowWho]

Hi John

Id be interested on your take on the idea of comparing WC to Tai Chi..... similar or vastly different?
Or somewhere in between
Regards
GlennR
Question was not for me, post deleted.

[Hendrik]

Here we go again.... name dropping to push your agenda and avoid the question

hahaha, as a chinese martial artists towards YKW who is a chinese, I have answered the question clearly and also there is no name dropping. you just posting against for against sake.

[YouKnowWho]

How is my Kung fu compare with Yang Lu-Chan (1799-1872)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Lu-ch%27an
How is your Kung fu compare with him? May be you are better then him?

However,
For me, I am 10000 miles away lower then him. so I dont talk anything he doesnt mention.

Yang Lu Chan didn't have to deal with MMA guys, MT guys, BJJ guys, and boxer but we do in our generation. There is bloody battle field out there brother!

[GlennR]

hahaha, as a chinese martial artists towards YKW who is a chinese, I have answered the question clearly and also there is no name dropping. you just posting against for against sake.

So the translations below the chinese characters are wrong?

[YouKnowWho]

Yang Lu-Chen was a fighter and not a person who only care about longevity.

[Hendrik]

Yang Lu Chan didn't have to deal with MMA guys, MT guys, BJJ guys, and boxer but we do in our generation. There is bloody battle field out there brother!

So you still think you are better then Yang Lu Chan, that is fine with me.

and also, you think MMA or BJJ guys are much better fighter then Qing's imperial Mongolian wresters fighters guards who were train to kill?

http://kaleidoscope.cultural-china.com/en/186K4882K10982.html

[Hendrik]

Yang Lu-Chen was a fighter and not a person who only care about longevity.

His nick name is the Invincible Yang and still not boasting how good a fighter he was.

[Hendrik]

Anyone actually go and test out this levitate ideas in your class this week end?
Try it and see what you get.

[YouKnowWho]

So you still think you are better then Yang Lu Chan, that is fine with me.

and also, you think MMA or BJJ guys are much better fighter then Qing's imperial Mongolian wresters fighters guards who were train to kill?

http://kaleidoscope.cultural-china.com/en/186K4882K10982.html
I didn't say that I'm better than Yang Lu-Chen. 不可藐視前人(Bu Ke Miao Shi Qian Ren) - One should not dis-respect ancient CMA masters. It's just part of the Wude.

- Those 撲虎(Pu Hu) in 清(Qing)'s imperial 善撲营(Shan Pu Yin) were not Mongolian wrestlers but Chinese wrestlers. Most of them came from Beijing, Tinjing, and Baoding in the Hopei province.

- There was no official record to indicate that Yang Lu-Chen had ever defeated any Chinese wrestler in his life time. There were some tough guys in that 善撲营(Shan Pu Yin).

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8093/sanpuyin.jpg

[Hendrik]

I didn't say that I'm better than Yang Lu-Chen. 不可藐視前人(Bu Ke Miao Shi Qian Ren) - One should not dis-respect ancient CMA masters. It's just part of the Wude.

- Those 撲虎(Pu Hu) in 清(Qing)'s imperial 善撲营(Shan Pu Yin) were not Mongolian wrestlers but Chinese wrestlers. Most of them came from Beijing, Tinjing, and Baoding in the Hopei province.

- There was no official record to indicate that Yang Lu-Chen had ever defeated any Chinese wrestler in his life time. There were some tough guys in that 善撲营(Shan Pu Yin).

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8093/sanpuyin.jpg



Good,

Do you know why I reveal these Levitate stuffs? What is my agenda?

[YouKnowWho]

That was my question?

- Why do I need to know levitation?
- If I don't know levitation then what problem that I'll have?
- Can levitation enhance my combat skill?

I don't know levitation so far and I haven't found anything missing yet. Can levitation enhance my "hip throw" or my "roundhouse kick"?

If you are talking about dynamic rooting then I'll agree with you that dynamic rooting is more useful than static rooting. But apparently you are not talking about "dynamic rooting" and I truly don't understand your "agenda".

[imperialtaichi]

Hi John

Id be interested on your take on the idea of comparing WC to Tai Chi..... similar or vastly different?
Or somewhere in between
Regards
GlennR

Hello Glenn,

Can't speak for other people, just my own experience.

If I equate Martial Arts to cook books, I will say the IYTC is a book on "the science of cooking", while the KLWC is the "Master Recipe" book.

There was one time Master Wei countered my punches with something that looked like a Bong Sau and threw me across the room; and then when Master Leung asked me the show him some applications of IYTC, I did a "White Snake" and he said "but that's our Stack Palms, and I haven't taught you that yet!"

KLWC focuses on breaking structures, striking and attacking; IYTC focuses on defending, throwing and NOT to hurt anyone. So there are similarities and differences. But there are only so many ways a body can be used. Once the BS is peeled off I find a lot of arts merging into the same pot, as long as the art is combat orientated.

Cheers,
John

[GlennR]

That was my question?

- Why do I need to know levitation?
- If I don't know levitation then what problem that I'll have?
- Can levitation enhance my combat skill?

I don't know levitation so far and I haven't found anything missing yet. Can levitation enhance my "hip throw" or my "roundhouse kick"?

If you are talking about dynamic rooting then I'll agree with you that dynamic rooting is more useful than static rooting. But apparently you are not talking about "dynamic rooting" and I truly don't understand your "agenda".

Trust me, he'll keep talking in circles, drop a name here and there but never actually answer your question, as it may expose his lack of applicable combat knowledge

GlennR

[GlennR]

Hello Glenn,

Can't speak for other people, just my own experience.

If I equate Martial Arts to cook books, I will say the IYTC is a book on "the science of cooking", while the KLWC is the "Master Recipe" book.

There was one time Master Wei countered my punches with something that looked like a Bong Sau and threw me across the room; and then when Master Leung asked me the show him some applications of IYTC, I did a "White Snake" and he said "but that's our Stack Palms, and I haven't taught you that yet!"

KLWC focuses on breaking structures, striking and attacking; IYTC focuses on defending, throwing and NOT to hurt anyone. So there are similarities and differences. But there are only so many ways a body can be used. Once the BS is peeled off I find a lot of arts merging into the same pot, as long as the art is combat orientated.

Cheers,
John

Thanks for that John

GlennR

[imperialtaichi]

John,

Could you please elaborate what is "feeling like sitting on a swing" means? Thanks!


As for who mention what, my take is it is all about the state of attainment.


However, if the art itself is not par or match up to the level then the depth of the art is obvious.

Hello Hendrik,

I don't think it was just different states of attainment; but different focuses, methods and goals.

Anyway, this is from a PURELY THEORETICAL IYTC point of view:

Stability is not attained through strong roots; but rather so unstable that the opponent cannot apply any force onto you. You can also move freely in any directions with the minimal of force, but always return the central equilibrium while releasing the "borrowed" energy. Hence solid rooting is a hinderance and it is not required; it becomes rather like, "sitting on a swing."

不怕人比我強，只怕人變的比我快，比我靈，比我準。
"I am not concerned with my opponent being stronger than me; but rather if he changes faster than me, more agile than me and more accurate than me."

Since this is not a Tai Chi forum, it is not appropriate to discuss these methodology further.

Cheers,
John

[chusauli]

Hendrik is completely clear here speaking of a neutral state. If you have this already, you have a basis for ting jing, dong jing, and hua jing where you can react to the 6 direction vectors. You are in "neutral". So will this apply to fighting? Completely so.

Demanding answers or wanting combat application or complaining doesn't get it for you - go into the space between silence and movement, static and dynamic, and you change in accord to your opponent's intention. This is also why wck is a neijia or should I say nei xiu (internal cultivation) and why Yang Luchan was "wu di" (without peer) - his skill makes no mistakes.

One of the better threads I have read in a long time and Hendrik was completely obvious, but the noise in some heads came out, :-) lol!

John, I have to say we both have tai ji and gu lao, so your comments are appreciated. And HS, our descendants will see a big clue of wck's past... practice with noise or silence? Lol!

[LoneTiger108]

-------------------------------------
一舉動周身俱要輕靈 尤須貫串 氣宜鼓盪 神宜內斂
無使有缺陷處 無使有凹凸處 無使有斷續處


or


As soon as there is movement, the whole body should be fluid, agile, and light
having all parts connected like a string of pearls. The energy is arousing, pure, and full.
The spirit is gathered and refined. No place for gaps or deficiencies. No place for unevenness. No place for disconnection.

------------------------------------

Thanks for sharing this insight Hendrik, and again I can sort of see why others get frustrated at your ideas. From what I understand here, you are explaining an internal feeling of a specific type of hei/chi/qi manipulation which causes the sensation of levitation?

Others feel that you have to be rooted, but if you think in terms of your hei/chi/qi then it is more understandable. We all know your feet will still have a connection to the ground, but if your hei/chi/qi is in constant motion or alive then you shouldn't feel this rooting, you will feel a sort of levitation. Personally, I have also felt the same thing after a visit to a good chiropractor or after looking into the Alexander Technique so for me the ancient and modern are already around us outside of the Martial Arts. And that needs to be considered here.

As for it's connection to Wing Chun and SLT it does make sense. If SLT is a neutral form, CK a sinking form and BJ a floating form, these are all different heigung methods. In fact, again, this type of energy is presented all around us in Martial Arts from BJJ to TKD. But the 'neutrality' isn't so common imho which makes our SLT even more special.

And FWIW I do think 'buoancy' is a pretty good word to describe this effect. Although 9 times out of ten a buoy is anchored so it may not be as accurate as levitate. I like the term 'arisen'.

[CFT]

To continue Hendrik's ship/wave/anchor analogy and Robert's rather telling "riding" alternative. If you surf you ride the wave. If you anchor the surfboard don't expect to be still standing on the board when its all over.

[t_niehoff]

Hendrik is completely clear here speaking of a neutral state. If you have this already, you have a basis for ting jing, dong jing, and hua jing where you can react to the 6 direction vectors. You are in "neutral". So will this apply to fighting? Completely so.


I disagree. Hendrik is not "completely clear" -- he is maddeningly unclear. Even though I know what he is talking about, he only succeeds in making it confusing! He is using comic book language, poor reasoning, pseudo-science, etc. Quite frankly, if I didn't already know Hendrik I would assume he was a complete idiot and a fraud, just like many people here.

And none of that (ting jing, dong jing, hua jing) will apply to fighting. Those things are not "real". They don't describe what is really going on with either your body or with your interaction (chi sao or fighting) with your opponent. There are no various "energies".

Looking at martial arts this way is not in any way helpful -- it is counter-productive. It will only make you worse. You will be going in the wrong direction in your training, your thinking, in everything you do. Looking at the world, your body, fighting, etc. through fantasy terms, using a fantasy model, etc. only takes you off course.



Demanding answers or wanting combat application or complaining doesn't get it for you -


No, it won't.



go into the space between silence and movement, static and dynamic, and you change in accord to your opponent's intention.


I think that is all nonsense too. WTF does that mean? Have you ever noticed that boxing, wrestling, BJJ, etc. doesn't talk about the opponent's "intention"? Let alone being "in accord with it." Or about "silence"? Etc. They are concerned with reality, what really matters, etc. Not nonsense.

WCK is very simple. Not easy to do mind you, but very simple and straight forward: control the opponent (by breaking his structure and keeping it broken) while striking him. Focus on THAT. Focus on DOING THAT. Not all the bullsh1t.



This is also why wck is a neijia or should I say nei xiu (internal cultivation) and why Yang Luchan was "wu di" (without peer) - his skill makes no mistakes.


Neijia is more nonsense. WCK has it's OWN mechanics for doing what it does. If someone wants to develop those mechanics, the ONLY way is by and through doing what it does.



One of the better threads I have read in a long time and Hendrik was completely obvious, but the noise in some heads came out, :-) lol!


And I think it was, like so many of Hendrik's threads -- which could be useful -- to be a complete waste of time.



John, I have to say we both have tai ji and gu lao, so your comments are appreciated. And HS, our descendants will see a big clue of wck's past... practice with noise or silence? Lol!

I agree that John provided good insight into the difference between WCK and tai ji's METHOD.

With regard to "noise or silence" -- all that Hendrik is providing is more fantasy fu for the fire.

[Hendrik]

Hello Hendrik,

I don't think it was just different states of attainment; but different focuses, methods and goals.

Anyway, this is from a PURELY THEORETICAL IYTC point of view:

Stability is not attained through strong roots; but rather so unstable that the opponent cannot apply any force onto you. You can also move freely in any directions with the minimal of force, but always return the central equilibrium while releasing the "borrowed" energy. Hence solid rooting is a hinderance and it is not required; it becomes rather like, "sitting on a swing."

不怕人比我強，只怕人變的比我快，比我靈，比我準。
"I am not concerned with my opponent being stronger than me; but rather if he changes faster than me, more agile than me and more accurate than me."

Since this is not a Tai Chi forum, it is not appropriate to discuss these methodology further.

Cheers,
John


John,

Thanks for your description.

For me, there is no different as if it is Tai Chi forum or Wing Chun forum when it comes to Advance TCMA, human body is human body. also examine different method and compare them will lead to more understanding.

As in Wing Chun kuen kuit says " Comes accept, goes return.... lead action with silence" it has implied this is not an art of Rooting but following or 随.

Thus the IYTC principle is in the similar direction otherwise the art cannot achieve using less to defeat more.

[Hendrik]

John, I have to say we both have tai ji and gu lao, so your comments are appreciated. And HS, our descendants will see a big clue of wck's past... practice with noise or silence? Lol!


Robert, yup. we leave the trace to the coming WCners.



Like a pupa turn into the butterfly, it must first get into and stay in the cocoon, then, it must leave the Cocoon to fly. Sure, it is extremely not comfortable to leave that cocoon of rooting or body structure, but in order to fly there is only one choice ---- get rid of the cocoon.


Ten years ago you raise the issue of body structure so that those who cant integrate their body/root to focus on the integration.

Now, Ten years later, we go a head and tear a part the body structure, the entire body behind the move, rooting with Riding, Floating, surfing......etc to get to flow.

[Hendrik]

Others feel that you have to be rooted, ...........
And FWIW I do think 'bouancy' is a pretty good word to describe this effect. Although 9 times out of ten a bouy is anchored so it may not be as accurate as levitate. I like the term 'arisen'.

Yup, rooting some how becomes the truth for some, thus it is not easy to see beyond it.

When the physical body open up joints by joints, the Qi is flow lively, when Qi flow lively the body is open up. So be it from any angle it is " float" or whatever one wants to call it. Chen Man Ching the Taiji master call it Swimming in the air.

[Hendrik]

To continue Hendrik's ship/wave/anchor analogy and Robert's rather telling "riding" alternative. If you surf you ride the wave. If you anchor the surfboard don't expect to be still standing on the board when its all over.


Surf board is a great analogy.

As you know by now, that "term" is no longer important since we get the concept a cross.

and doing SLT is like surfing with micro moves of the whole body. instead of become a Woodern Dummy rooting there and just move the arm.

[Hendrik]

That was my question?

- Why do I need to know levitation?
- If I don't know levitation then what problem that I'll have?
- Can levitation enhance my combat skill?

I don't know levitation so far and I haven't found anything missing yet. Can levitation enhance my "hip throw" or my "roundhouse kick"?

If you are talking about dynamic rooting then I'll agree with you that dynamic rooting is more useful than static rooting. But apparently you are not talking about "dynamic rooting" and I truly don't understand your "agenda".


You dont need to know because you are not practicing WCK but other external art.





for WCner the only way to truly activate SLT is via " Levitation, Floating, Surfing, Swimming...."


The following is a must to follow:

全身不可着力量。 一任自然顺气脉，细味小字妙诀方。

The whole body must not use one more gram of excessive effort, spontaneously handling the physical accord to the nature qi medirians flow, sipping/tasting the fine details is the wonderful theme of the practice.


Otherwise, the practice is dead, It will not produce the result SLT is designed for to support---- Comes accept goes return.....etc. WCK is an Agile based art not a power root based art. As now the Contact point power and the body follow hand concept surface as in the other thread. Doesnt it proves that you are not expose to the Internal of WCK?

We have a good idea on what is a pre 1840 WCK extreme likely to be. and I believe all WCners deserve to know ----- Levitate, Contact point power.....etc will surface.


Some might object the release of those type of pre 1840 signatures because it shows a strong evident to how WCK core and history doesnt likely to be what they believe in.

IE:
the HKB WCK power generation, that is not a Contact point power type. Thus it cant be WCK's power generation type for inch power.

Shao lin WCK rooting stance as in Nam Kuen or Hung gar, rooting is a hinderance for practicing SLT. Thus, those type of art doesnt fit well into SLT.

Thus, the above two type of WCK can be considered as an evolution of WCK but it cant be the original form of WCK, Why? because these practice cannot make the core of WCK -- SLT alive well.

However, saying the above, respect must be given to every evolution branch of WCK because every evolution is some one's creative ideas and effort.

[Wayfaring]

If that is truly how you feel, that your time is wasted, then why bother posting at all? Others here are getting something from what is posted, if you are unable or unwilling to do so then that is your choice. However, others apparently do not feel the same way.

Terms are always open to interpretation, particularily in WC as words and terms do not translate directly into English or whatever your mother tongue may be.

The post directly below yours seems to indicate that others do feel the same way. It also doesn't help that you are deleting posts that describe the term "levitation" as ridiculous.

That is a little hypocritical - to delete dissenting posts and then to portray public opinion as concurring, don't you think? There is a little bit of a conflict of interest in moderating a thread and posting with an opinion on the thread. You need to keep that in mind.

As far as terms being open to interpretation, my position on that is until someone directly calls out Hendrick on being stubborn with respect to saying "my description stands", he does not do anything with respect to trying to communicate in terms that better describe his concept. I quoted the portion of his post that displayed this attitude.

Since I called him out on that, we have several synonyms that have emerged that all are more appropriate - "floating", "buoyancy", etc. Most of them have come from others trying to be Hendrik apologists. I still say to all of them - make him do his own work - he can use the same dictionary.com site to use a Thesaurus to come up with similar words where he can check the meanings against his understanding of the original Mandarin. My position on that still holds. I do try to understand the concepts in their original language, but to those who do not speak that language, it is of zero help to try and discuss these concepts without someone who takes effort and responsibility in translation and communication. And it's the attitude of that I am confronting. Laziness.

We are now getting closer to where you can actually have a conversation about this. Do these concepts exist in Western fighting understanding? Absolutely. A key concept in grappling is to be tight enough to your opponent to control their movement, but loose enough to "float" to handle responding quickly to and countering their movements. If you lack that quality you are easily swept or reversed. In striking, good boxers / MT practitioners know how to flow with an opponent's energy and make them miss. This could be described as "floating" to a certain extent.

Many of the clips we have seen, like the recent "WC vs. Boxer" clip you see the boxer having a greater ability to "float" than the WC guy. Many lower to mid level WC guys you see static upright head in one position moving back and forward on one straight line attacking centerline. That is absolutely lacking in any "floating" characteristic.

[Wayfaring]

The whole body must not use one more gram of excessive effort, spontaneously handling the physical accord to the nature qi medirians flow, sipping/tasting the fine details is the wonderful theme of the practice.


What I agree with in this statement is that in any art the greater the technical ability the more efficient the energy is that you use. The goal in progression in arts is to become technically proficient enough that you control your opponent while utilizing less effort than your opponent.

[Wayfaring]

Surf board is a great analogy.

As you know by now, that "term" is no longer important since we get the concept a cross.

and doing SLT is like surfing with micro moves of the whole body. instead of become a Woodern Dummy rooting there and just move the arm.

Surfing or "riding waves" is a good analogy.

But quite the opposite, "terms" are absolutely important as they are the minute detail or "mechanics" of getting a concept across.

[Vajramusti]

Actually, IMO Hendrik has been quite clear.

Levitate, float, buoyancy & other equivalencies.


In a way he is descibing a very natural path that has been forgotten in some systems.

IMO- 1. one does not need taiji or gulao or Yik Kam to get to that point... good Ip Man wing chun will do it too.

2. it's not about east or west- it's perspective on natural motion present in east and west but more consistently emphasized in some TCMA-s.

3. But understanding and fusing the so called external elements are important too- of one doesn't get out of the way- a Mack truck can run over Chuck Norris and Chen Man Ching.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

When the physical body open up joints by joints, the Qi is flow lively, when Qi flow lively the body is open up. So be it from any angle it is " float" or whatever one wants to call it. Chen Man Ching the Taiji master call it Swimming in the air.

It's interesting that this thread is littered with more open connections to Taiji Hendrik, but my question to you is "if I have felt something identical to what we are discussing without ever having been trained by a Taiji Master or 12 Zhuang Gatekeeper, how is this possible?"

I ask this because, as you all know, my Sifu learnt from Lee Shing for over 25 years, and he is pretty certain that all he was taught was Wing Chun. Yes, the flavour of Wing Chun may be slightly different than most but it was all still Wing Chun to him and that is what and how I learnt.

Do you have any Yik Kam stanzas that relate to exactly what you are discussing here, or have you got varied Taiji stanzas that have helped you integrate the knowledge into your WCK? Or are they one and the same?

Like I said, very interesting and also very revelaving thread imho. Thanks for sharing.

[Wayfaring]

2. it's not about east or west- it's perspective on natural motion present in east and west but more consistently emphasized in some TCMA-s.


So, not about east or west, but east emphasizes it more consistently?

LOL.

Good instruction regardless of origin will help develop the skills to float.

Oh, and happy "levitation" to you in your WCK. That was such a clear concept.

[CFT]

Do you have any Yik Kam stanzas that relate to exactly what you are discussing here, or have you got varied Taiji stanzas that have helped you integrate the knowledge into your WCK? Or are they one and the same?Hendrik has already posted some earlier in the thread: http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1072800&postcount=27

[LoneTiger108]

IMO- 1. one does not need taiji or gulao or Yik Kam to get to that point... good Ip Man wing chun will do it too.


Good instruction regardless of origin will help develop the skills to float.

This is also what I am getting at. But I would say that 'excellent' Ip Man Wing Chun will do it too imho

[LoneTiger108]

Hendrik has already posted some earlier in the thread: http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1072800&postcount=27

You mean these four lines?

1, 集意会神平肩襠
Collect the Intention/Attention union with the awareness in the Equal Shoulder stance


2, 双手前起分陰阳
Both hands raise forward duality is form.


3, 左脚跘出有善惡, 右跟曲勁紧收藏
Left Leg trips out there is a aiding and counter effect. Right heel with spiral force tightly stored.


4, 气聚丹田督脉降
Qi activity in Dan Dien and the Du Medirian while the spine is loosely discending.

FME This is organised and sounds like Taiji stanza or kuit. If Yik Kam had this to support his SLT then that is great, as it has sure helped Hendrik understand his SLT.

BUT imhhho fme this is not original SLT Kuit.

This is more like SLT Kuit I have witnessed. From wingchunpedia.org but again, there are no Chinese characters online there and I thought this particular set was from Sifu Augustine Fong.

1.Siu Lien Tau comes first; Do not force progress in training.
2.A weak body must start with strength improvement.
3.Do not keep any bad habit.
4.Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.
5.To maintain good balance of strength, grip the ground with the toes.
6.To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.
7.Sink the elbow and drop the shoulders; Guarding the centerline to protect both flanks.
8.There are one hundred and eight moves, all practical and real; Thousands of variations can be used, aiming for practical use and not beauty.
9.Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.
10.Taun Sau, Bong Sau, Fok Sau, Wu Sau, and Huen Sau; their wonder grows with practice.
11.Each movement must be clear and crisp. Timing must be observed.
12.Practice once a day, more will cause no harm.

FWIW What Hendrik has is either an extension of ONE of these lines, or simply something inherited by Yik Kam from another source. Again, my opinion only as I can't make any claims to know anything more.

[Hendrik]

FWIW What Hendrik has is either an extension of ONE of these lines, or simply something inherited by Yik Kam from another source. Again, my opinion only as I can't make any claims to know anything more.


Nope. it is not extension...etc.

it is a small part of the original "operating manual" of the SLT; comes hand on hand with the 108 points SLT long form passed down by Yik Kam from the Red Boat.
The kuen kuit explain the details of the sets.

Such as the above four stanzas. it is describing how one starts from standing naturally to complete the YJKYM, the details needs to pay attention and handle interm of body mind Qi and momentum.....etc.


This type of writing is accord with classical Chinese Kuen kuit if one study history of Classical Chinese kuen kuit;

in fact, as I have shared many times, within this "operating manual" one can find the trace of White crane's fujian and Emei 12 zhuang's terminology and signature clearly.



This is the type of writing one expect when it comes to kuen kuit, a full description not up for intepretation or fuzzy saying such as


Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.

So, in the old time, for IN- DOOR STUDENT, when one train in SLT, one's sifu goes through each movements with line by line of the kuen kuit to make sure everything is handle properly.

For your information, my late Sifu CHC went throught it with me. and I even have the writing letter between him and me to prove the discussion of Kuen kuit and movement exist.


Think about Kuen kuit as an "operating manual" and Spec. instead of some wisdom saying which everyone can interplate as one likes.


and also, in the evolution different branch comes up with different Saying such as " hand never return" those are not a complete kuen kuit, those are tips/ saying /instruction for a particular situation and for a particular person.

Again, Kuen kuit is a full description one must not mistaken.

Also, all these stuffs are writting in a particular way or structure so if one look at the taiji or Emei or wu dang or shao lin kuen kuit/po they follow classical chinese model and also it comes with big picture and small details. It is absolutely not those fragmented saying or wise words. it is fully technical and details. and that is the reason I could trace the white crane and Emei from Yik Kam's kuen kuit. because we could find the signatures and match it. There is no ambiguety.

Again, I am not here to sell you Yik Kam this or Yik Kam that. I am just sharing with you this type of things exist in reality and for me, with the evident I have seen and experimenting with, the WCK history case is closed and the ancestors were telling the truth --- the crane and the snake. the crane from fujian and the snake from emei.


Speaking as a WCner position, we are lucky that the Cho family preserved the long form SLT kuen kuit because that is a part of our identity where we could trace. if we lost that writing we lost the traceablity. as I mention before we could trace WCk up to pre 1840 and then tap into White Crane and Emei kuen kuit to go even further.

[YouKnowWho]

Thanks for that John

GlennR

Just realize that the last question that you asked, "compare WC and Taiji" was not for me. It's just so happen that my first name is John too.

[Graham H]

1.Siu Lien Tau comes first; Do not force progress in training.
2.A weak body must start with strength improvement.
3.Do not keep any bad habit.
4.Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.
5.To maintain good balance of strength, grip the ground with the toes.
6.To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.
7.Sink the elbow and drop the shoulders; Guarding the centerline to protect both flanks.
8.There are one hundred and eight moves, all practical and real; Thousands of variations can be used, aiming for practical use and not beauty.
9.Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.
10.Taun Sau, Bong Sau, Fok Sau, Wu Sau, and Huen Sau; their wonder grows with practice.
11.Each movement must be clear and crisp. Timing must be observed.
12.Practice once a day, more will cause no harm.



.............here is some more nonsense with equal amounts of importance...;)

The Creation Kuit

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters............................................ ....

GoD

(wonder how long this will stay on here. Less time than my last one me thinks!!!)

[Vajramusti]

A question for Henrik regarding Yik Kam Kuen Kuit.
I understand 3 of the 4.
Could you comment on this one:


3, 左脚跘出有善惡, 右跟曲勁紧收藏
Left Leg trips out there is a aiding and counter effect. Right heel with spiral force tightly stored.

Is that in YGKYM or when you step into a forward stance?

joy chaudhuri

[chusauli]

I disagree. Hendrik is not "completely clear" -- he is maddeningly unclear. Even though I know what he is talking about, he only succeeds in making it confusing! He is using comic book language, poor reasoning, pseudo-science, etc. Quite frankly, if I didn't already know Hendrik I would assume he was a complete idiot and a fraud, just like many people here.

And none of that (ting jing, dong jing, hua jing) will apply to fighting. Those things are not "real". They don't describe what is really going on with either your body or with your interaction (chi sao or fighting) with your opponent. There are no various "energies".

TN, Whether you like it or not, this is the paradigm which I studied and extrapolated much of my method from - it comes from TCMA, language and culture. Whether it is "real" or "false", it matters not - it is a paradigm which exists from the ancients. Just as the Greeks had a paradigm of Zeus, Hades, etc. if we are to understand, we need to shift to a new pair of lenses. If I were to "translate" the paradigm, I would say, Hendrik is doing "martial arts based on feeling" and "knowing the opponent's intention". This is not different than BJJ's feeling out the opponent and completing their moves as they move, then position and submission.



Looking at martial arts this way is not in any way helpful -- it is counter-productive. It will only make you worse. You will be going in the wrong direction in your training, your thinking, in everything you do. Looking at the world, your body, fighting, etc. through fantasy terms, using a fantasy model, etc. only takes you off course.

You are overly doing it in one direction. Treat it as if you were a socio-anthropologist and understand that the language of TCMA existed by the people of that time. It is very different than contemporary Chinese, for example if you look at Spencer's posting of Augustine Fong's Kuen Kuit, it has a modern flavor, as opposed to the classical Chinese writing of Yik Kam writing (remember in Yik Kam's time perhaps 10% of the population could read and write). Yik Kam's choice of characters reflected a highly educated standard as opposed to contemporary Chinese writing. You don't see stuff like that anymore.



I think that is all nonsense too. WTF does that mean? Have you ever noticed that boxing, wrestling, BJJ, etc. doesn't talk about the opponent's "intention"? Let alone being "in accord with it." Or about "silence"? Etc. They are concerned with reality, what really matters, etc. Not nonsense.

Since I am from the Chan school like Hendrik, the study of "silence" means to let the "ego get out of the way" and "silence the thoughts in your head" so that the "Buddha Nature" which is akin to "God shines through" or your "original nature" of "calm, reflecting and in the moment" allow you to feel and sense your opponent's intentions. From there you use your mechanics, position and ground and pound, control, etc. We use the paradigms of the ancients like a Rosetta Stone, to glean the insights of generations before. There was a good episode of "Star Trek, the Next Generation", which Picard was trying to communicate with an alien race who used only metaphors and paradigms derived from their history and did not speak a straightforward language based on subject, noun, verb, etc. I can understand your frustration, but dismissing Chinese culture with an ethnocentric POV is limiting.


WCK is very simple. Not easy to do mind you, but very simple and straight forward: control the opponent (by breaking his structure and keeping it broken) while striking him. Focus on THAT. Focus on DOING THAT. Not all the bullsh1t.

Yes, that is a socio-political product of the modernization of China. The TCMA began to take a turn of modernization with "bourgeois non-intellectual" language. But the demands of a peasant ruler doesn't invalidate 5000 years of culture and history. Maybe you'd be one of the "Red Guard" zealots towards modernization. LOL! :) To dismiss as BS is irresponsible and ethnocentric.



Neijia is more nonsense. WCK has it's OWN mechanics for doing what it does. If someone wants to develop those mechanics, the ONLY way is by and through doing what it does.

You are misunderstanding my classification of "Nei Jia" and "Nei Xiu". In here, I am saying "Nei Jia" as a classification of study of inner workings, mechanics, alignment, form, etc., not just a preference of "external" use or function. It is a Nei Xiu (Inner cultivation) as it allows one to understand the dynamic of thought (or perhaps 'non-thought") that the ancients were describing. Again, look at it from a "socio-anthropological" context, as opposed to your dislike of "Tai Ji wimps who can't fight outta a paper bag".

And I think it was, like so many of Hendrik's threads -- which could be useful -- to be a complete waste of time.[/QUOTE]

Yes, if you cannot understand what is beyond it at face value.



I agree that John provided good insight into the difference between WCK and tai ji's METHOD.

With regard to "noise or silence" -- all that Hendrik is providing is more fantasy fu for the fire.

I will say "silence" is basically "STFU and lissen up". :)

[Hendrik]

A question for Henrik regarding Yik Kam Kuen Kuit.
I understand 3 of the 4.
Could you comment on this one:


3, 左脚跘出有善惡, 右跟曲勁紧收藏
Left Leg trips out there is a aiding and counter effect. Right heel with spiral force tightly stored.

Is that in YGKYM or when you step into a forward stance?

joy chaudhuri



Joy,

That is when one open the stance wider to left and right.

first one stand in the equal shoulder stance,

these stanza pair above is when one open wider the stance to make YJKYM wider stance, and the last stanza is when one descent down into the YJKYM at that point one also sink the Qi into Dan dien... with spine handling....etc

So at the end of the 4th stanza one is in the YJKYM position. However, all what was instruct and learn from all the few stanzas applied in the YJKYM position and there on.

hope this help.

[Vajramusti]

Joy,

That is when one open the stance wider to left and right.

first one stand in the equal shoulder stance,

these stanza pair above is when one open wider the stance to make YJKYM wider stance, and the last stanza is when one descent down into the YJKYM at that point one also sink the Qi into Dan dien... with spine handling....etc

So at the end of the 4th stanza one is in the YJKYM position. However, all what was instruct and learn from all the few stanzas applied in the YJKYM position and there on.

hope this help.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok- so it's a Yik Kam way of for widening the stance. No problem.Thx.
Joy Chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

"for example if you look at Spencer's posting of Augustine Fong's Kuen Kuit, it has a modern flavor, as opposed to the classical Chinese writing of Yik Kam writing" RC
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure- but quite understandable. Let's enjoy Hendrik's explanation rather than getting into
comparisons.

Joy Chaudhuri

[chusauli]

"for example if you look at Spencer's posting of Augustine Fong's Kuen Kuit, it has a modern flavor, as opposed to the classical Chinese writing of Yik Kam writing" RC
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sure- but quite understandable. Let's enjoy Hendrik's explanation rather than getting into
comparisons.

Joy Chaudhuri

Joy,

I'm simply pointing out the language difference between classical and contemporary Chinese.

Augustine's work and genius should be given the credit it is due. Too many people have plagiarized him without giving proper credit and citation.

And his complete writings shows he is wide read in Chinese martial literature.

[Vajramusti]

Joy,

I'm simply pointing out the language difference between classical and contemporary Chinese.

Augustine's work and genius should be given the credit it is due. Too many people have plagiarized him without giving proper credit and citation.

And his complete writings shows he is wide read in Chinese martial literature.


-----------------------------------------------------
Robert- Understood.

Joy Chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ok, maybe it's me but do we really need archaic terms and POV's?
The studies done on sports performance, genetics, biomechanics, nutrition, perforhance enhancers and things of that nature that have been done over the last 20 years have given us some serious insight in to human athletic performance.

[Yoshiyahu]

The reason why some people say sink the weight or root the weight in Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma is because you are double weighted. The Side stance or forward bracing stance is estimated to be 70/30. Which gives you more mobility and quicker movement. YGKYM is for when your at your opponents flank or when you have his doors open, structure controlled and your in elbow striking range. Forward Bracing stance is use to intitate attack or bridge with your opponent. None of the movements should be stactic in fighting. You practice them stactic so you wont be shaky and not able to hold the stance. But you should be forever moving from one horse to another.

As for Root or Ground...YGKYM does temporarily root or ground it self for striking or uprooting with certain moves. The Root is not as extreme as the hung gar Horse which is wider and less mobile. The YGKYM Root is like that of Crane or White Crane Horse. It should be held relaxed. An the root should be natural. One should not sink to low or be to high. Standing on the bricks facing up the narrow way will teach you how to be light and grounded at the same time. One should be inbetween Light and Heavy. If your too heavy the bricks will fall. If your too light you will fall off the bricks. Too much weight on the bricks causes them to topple. Too little weight on bricks causes your feet.legs and body to shake and wont allow you to get firm grasp or firm footing. Its somewhere in between. When In motion their is a temporary root or sinking of weight. Or maybe i should say distribution of weight is changed by the motion...

for me when I hear root, ground or sink I think center. Now instead of levitation I do think of Floating, moving horse, Riding Horse, Lightness, Light skills, etc. I usually distinuguied the two from Center and lightness. One should be centered and one should be light. Dont always be light because you wont have power behind your attacks. But dont always be centered because you want be able to move out of the way.


Root = Center,Grounded,Sink, Heavy

Levitation = Float,Light skill,Movement, Lightness, Mobile, riding

I like everyones take on the subject of levitation...

But boxers also levitate...You got inside boxers and swarmers. You got boxers who swarm their opponent with a barage of attacks which he uses a root or grounds himself to deliver power. An you have a boxer who floats who uses his body momentum to deliver power while moving in and out of range. It depends on the fighter...

Float like a butterfly sting like a be!

[Vajramusti]

Ok, maybe it's me but do we really need archaic terms and POV's?
The studies done on sports performance, genetics, biomechanics, nutrition, perforhance enhancers and things of that nature that have been done over the last 20 years have given us some serious insight in to human athletic performance.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No question on the development of sports related literature. But classical literature helps illuminate other things besides sporting activity.

BTW-among other works - for those with pointy head inclinations---

Needham's classic multi volume work :Science and Civilization in China can help understanding
the foundations and history of Chinese science...

one need not throw the baby out with the bathwater in understanding comparative history.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Dont always be light because you wont have power behind your attacks. But dont always be centered because you want be able to move out of the way.





is the flying helicopter's blade light or heavy, it is center or de center? or all the above?

[sanjuro_ronin]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No question on the development of sports related literature. But classical literature helps illuminate other things besides sporting activity.

BTW-among other works - for those with pointy head inclinations---

Needham's classic multi volume work :Science and Civilization in China can help understanding
the foundations and history of Chinese science...

one need not throw the baby out with the bathwater in understanding comparative history.

joy chaudhuri

Very true Joy but what if the archaic terms and VP become the source of the problems?

EX: The study of genetics has shown as that some people are, in a nutshell, freaks.
genetic marvels that move faster, are stronger, jump higher (etc) than the vast majority of people, we see them at the elite levels of sports and the even more rarer uber-elite levels.
Nowadays we are not under any dilusions, or at least we shouldn't be, that these freaks are that because they were born that way ( neither one of us is breaking the 9 second mark in the 100 but someone will eventually and they will do it because they were born to do it).
But not too long ago those feats could have easily been, and many were, chalked up to "special training" or "chi" or "secret potions".

[Yoshiyahu]

"Lower the stance downward, sinking through the knees. Lok ma is where the "rootedness" is developed. It trains the legs to effectively support the body, and helps the practitioner to, later on, develop the advancing steps of Wing Chun. "

"This occurs naturally as the knees are bent as the body weight relaxes and sinks down. The all too familiar admonishment of the traditional old sifu's to “sink” refers to allowing the body to relax properly in order for the weight to drop and push the knees forward and down."

"The knees are not forced in, but forward. The knees are not stiff, but relaxedly sink as you relax more and more forwards and downward. Kim sut is sometimes too much effort for. It depends on strengthening your thighs, knees and ankles. Imagine being rooted to the floor, as though you are part of the ground. Imagine the ideas of “sinking” and “rooting” and your stances and steps will be far stronger."

[QUOTEhttp://www.yunhoiwingchun.com/Articles/Structure/PrinciplesofWingChunbodystructure/tabid/126/Default.aspx[/QUOTE]

Kuit Kuen says:

"- Sink the elbows, the shoulders, and the waist. "

Question: What does sink the waist mean and why do that?

[Hendrik]

I like everyones take on the subject of levitation...




That is how is suppose to be and grow together.

[Hendrik]

Thanks for sharing.


Is the following a question for me?



Kuit Kuen says:

"- Sink the elbows, the shoulders, and the waist. "

Question: What does sink the waist mean and why do that?





[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1072961]"Lower the stance downward, sinking through the knees. Lok ma is where the "rootedness" is developed. It trains the legs to effectively support the body, and helps the practitioner to, later on, develop the advancing steps of Wing Chun. "

"This occurs naturally as the knees are bent as the body weight relaxes and sinks down. The all too familiar admonishment of the traditional old sifu's to “sink” refers to allowing the body to relax properly in order for the weight to drop and push the knees forward and down."......

Kuit Kuen says:

"- Sink the elbows, the shoulders, and the waist. "

Question: What does sink the waist mean and why do that?

[YungChun]

Very true Joy but what if the archaic terms and VP become the source of the problems?

EX: The study of genetics has shown as that some people are, in a nutshell, freaks.
genetic marvels that move faster, are stronger, jump higher (etc) than the vast majority of people, we see them at the elite levels of sports and the even more rarer uber-elite levels.
Nowadays we are not under any dilusions, or at least we shouldn't be, that these freaks are that because they were born that way ( neither one of us is breaking the 9 second mark in the 100 but someone will eventually and they will do it because they were born to do it).
But not too long ago those feats could have easily been, and many were, chalked up to "special training" or "chi" or "secret potions".

With an excellent understanding of bio-mechanics and so on seen in CMA it would be a severe underestimation IMO of even ancient TCMA to assume they had no idea that some people simply had more potential than others.. The idea in the arts then and now is to simply maximize performance of the individual. That can often mean getting less gifted folks doing (more of) what the "freaks" do naturally..

[Hendrik]

you people cant escape old song from me. hahaha

YKW all the question you ask me is answered in this song.

Well, people like Robert or John who knows Cantonese and mandarin, this is a good song worthed to sing along with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGjolchJ9tU&feature=related


射雕英雄传之华山论剑 ( episode of discuss martial art in the top of Mount Wa)

問世間　是否此山最高 ( Ask the world, is this the highest mountain?)
或者另有高處比天高 ( or there are other mountain higher then this one?)

在世間　自有山比此山更高 ( in this world, there always mountain higher then this one)
但愛心找不到比你好 ( however, there is no better loving heart then yours loving heart)

論武功　俗世中不知邊個高 ( discussing martial art, which is the highest in this world?)
或者絕招同途異路 ( or perhaps all the top art having the same destination but only different path to get there)

但我知　論愛心找不到更好 (however, I know, one can find a better loving heart)
待我心　世間始終你好 ( the loving heart you threat me, that is the best in the world.)

[Yoshiyahu]

Yes the question is for you....



Thanks for sharing.


Is the following a question for me?









Kuit Kuen says:

"- Sink the elbows, the shoulders, and the waist. "

Question: What does sink the waist mean and why do that?[/QUOTE]



As for Helicopter it flies. But we do not fly when we are moving in our horse. We do not fly.

As for the mechnical Blade of Helicopter it spins or spirals. It is heavy to pick up. But it is neighter rooted or light. It is fixed in place. Since it can not center, root, or uproot itself because it is inaminate one can not compare the too. Perphaps you do better comparing A cheetah and tiger. The cheetah is light when it runs. But when it hits or attacks its prey it begins to root or ground it self sinking its weight so the animal can fall. Same with lions and tigers. They have to be light to run and chase. But they sink their weight upon a deers back in order to cause it to go down as they bite its neck. Even in nature we have rooting and uprooting.

The boxer who is swarmer or inclose fighter is grounded or rooted to maximize speed and power of his punches. While the light footed boxer moves alot freely and instead of engaging the center he flanks or out manuveners his opponent. In WC you learn to have a little of both!

[Yoshiyahu]

I just loved how Robert Chu told Terrence Niehoff to shut the F up and then told him he was wrong for his peasant minded thinking! Educated people should be respected just because common folks dont understand dont mean its wrong?


TN, Whether you like it or not, this is the paradigm which I studied and extrapolated much of my method from - it comes from TCMA, language and culture. Whether it is "real" or "false", it matters not - it is a paradigm which exists from the ancients. Just as the Greeks had a paradigm of Zeus, Hades, etc. if we are to understand, we need to shift to a new pair of lenses. If I were to "translate" the paradigm, I would say, Hendrik is doing "martial arts based on feeling" and "knowing the opponent's intention". This is not different than BJJ's feeling out the opponent and completing their moves as they move, then position and submission.




You are overly doing it in one direction. Treat it as if you were a socio-anthropologist and understand that the language of TCMA existed by the people of that time. It is very different than contemporary Chinese, for example if you look at Spencer's posting of Augustine Fong's Kuen Kuit, it has a modern flavor, as opposed to the classical Chinese writing of Yik Kam writing (remember in Yik Kam's time perhaps 10% of the population could read and write). Yik Kam's choice of characters reflected a highly educated standard as opposed to contemporary Chinese writing. You don't see stuff like that anymore.




Since I am from the Chan school like Hendrik, the study of "silence" means to let the "ego get out of the way" and "silence the thoughts in your head" so that the "Buddha Nature" which is akin to "God shines through" or your "original nature" of "calm, reflecting and in the moment" allow you to feel and sense your opponent's intentions. From there you use your mechanics, position and ground and pound, control, etc. We use the paradigms of the ancients like a Rosetta Stone, to glean the insights of generations before. There was a good episode of "Star Trek, the Next Generation", which Picard was trying to communicate with an alien race who used only metaphors and paradigms derived from their history and did not speak a straightforward language based on subject, noun, verb, etc. I can understand your frustration, but dismissing Chinese culture with an ethnocentric POV is limiting.



Yes, that is a socio-political product of the modernization of China. The TCMA began to take a turn of modernization with "bourgeois non-intellectual" language. But the demands of a peasant ruler doesn't invalidate 5000 years of culture and history. Maybe you'd be one of the "Red Guard" zealots towards modernization. LOL! :) To dismiss as BS is irresponsible and ethnocentric.




You are misunderstanding my classification of "Nei Jia" and "Nei Xiu". In here, I am saying "Nei Jia" as a classification of study of inner workings, mechanics, alignment, form, etc., not just a preference of "external" use or function. It is a Nei Xiu (Inner cultivation) as it allows one to understand the dynamic of thought (or perhaps 'non-thought") that the ancients were describing. Again, look at it from a "socio-anthropological" context, as opposed to your dislike of "Tai Ji wimps who can't fight outta a paper bag".

And I think it was, like so many of Hendrik's threads -- which could be useful -- to be a complete waste of time.

Yes, if you cannot understand what is beyond it at face value.




I will say "silence" is basically "STFU and lissen up". :)[/QUOTE]

[Hendrik]

Yes the question is for you....

Kuit Kuen says:

"- Sink the elbows, the shoulders, and the waist. "

Question: What does sink the waist mean and why do that?




OK,

This saying is not nature to human body.

Elbows can be sink,
however, if one sink shoulders the breathing will be compremised.
Also sinking waist is compremised the spine.



What one actually want to do is Sink elbow, loose up the shoulder, hang up the upper back, loose the waist, and slightly tug in the butt. That way the spine, the breathing, the qi, could loose up naturally.

[chusauli]

Ok, maybe it's me but do we really need archaic terms and POV's?
The studies done on sports performance, genetics, biomechanics, nutrition, perforhance enhancers and things of that nature that have been done over the last 20 years have given us some serious insight in to human athletic performance.

Yes, agreed, but do we at least see where it came from and the language used then?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, agreed, but do we at least see where it came from and the language used then?

Sure, but why keep using them when there are more clear and more correct terms?

[chusauli]

I just loved how Robert Chu told Terrence Niehoff to shut the F up and then told him he was wrong for his peasant minded thinking! Educated people should be respected just because common folks dont understand dont mean its wrong?

Yes, if you cannot understand what is beyond it at face value.

I will say "silence" is basically "STFU and lissen up". :)[/QUOTE]

No, I didn't tell T to STFU, I told him that is what silence means. It goes for all of us, and you, too.

And I am not referring to T having a peasant mindedness, but rather Mao Tse Tung and the Cultural Revolution.

It shows when you read, you infer the wrong things. Maybe you need some silence.

[chusauli]

Sure, but why keep using them when there are more clear and more correct terms?

As I said, look at it from a socio-anthropologist's or even an archeaologist's mind frame.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As I said, look at it from a socio-anthropologist's or even an archeaologist's mind frame.

Within the cultural context, sure, but outside of it, what is the point of using a term and using it in the wrong way, or using it when you know it was give the wrong idea?

[Hendrik]

Within the cultural context, sure, but outside of it, what is the point of using a term and using it in the wrong way, or using it when you know it was give the wrong idea?


what is a wrong idea? Qi?

[kung fu fighter]

Elbows can be sink,
however, if one sink shoulders the breathing will be compremised.
Also sinking waist is compremised the spine.



What one actually want to do is Sink elbow, loose up the shoulder, hang up the upper back, loose the waist, and slightly tug in the butt. That way the spine, the breathing, the qi, could loose up naturally.

how does handling or seating the wrist/hand fit into the picture?

[sanjuro_ronin]

what is a wrong idea? Qi?

If the only way you can express "an idea" is by using the term "qi", a term that is NOT uniform or to which there is no uniform definition then yes, it is the "wrong idea".

[kung fu fighter]

KFF,
the whole body should be fluid, agile, and light + string of pearls is the snake engine.

No place for gaps or deficiencies no place for unevenness no place for disconnection is the 6D force vectors balancing.

The energy is arousing, pure, and full. The spirit is gathered and refined. is Awareness and Qi...



When powering your movements using the snake engine, do you "express absorb/project energy" on either side of the curves (sticking to, and drawing the opponent into your sphere)

while absorbing can occur separately from the projecting energy (e.g. one arm absorbing while the other arm projects), when done simultaneously it sets up the absorb/project potential (and "spin force") at a single point of contact.

you can use your intent to switch/alternate which side is absorbing and which side is projecting

[Yoshiyahu]

I will be silent and keep thinking what i am thinking. I am happy with that statement. Yes Terrence need to be silent like me. lets all stop talking about stuff we know nothing about lol i agree.


Yoshiyahu stfu....and keeps believing what he infers robert to have said!






No, I didn't tell T to STFU, I told him that is what silence means. It goes for all of us, and you, too.

And I am not referring to T having a peasant mindedness, but rather Mao Tse Tung and the Cultural Revolution.

It shows when you read, you infer the wrong things. Maybe you need some silence.[/QUOTE]

[GlennR]

Hendrik is completely clear here speaking of a neutral state. If you have this already, you have a basis for ting jing, dong jing, and hua jing where you can react to the 6 direction vectors. You are in "neutral". So will this apply to fighting? Completely so.

Demanding answers or wanting combat application or complaining doesn't get it for you - go into the space between silence and movement, static and dynamic, and you change in accord to your opponent's intention. This is also why wck is a neijia or should I say nei xiu (internal cultivation) and why Yang Luchan was "wu di" (without peer) - his skill makes no mistakes.

One of the better threads I have read in a long time and Hendrik was completely obvious, but the noise in some heads came out, :-) lol!

John, I have to say we both have tai ji and gu lao, so your comments are appreciated. And HS, our descendants will see a big clue of wck's past... practice with noise or silence? Lol!

Well excuse me for not having the comprehension skills to understand what you find so obvious
I'll just move onto another thread where
a) A simple answer to a simple question is not too much to ask
b) I dont have to understand chinese characters
c) Where application is placed before pseudo academic waffling

[shawchemical]

what is a wrong idea? Qi?

Yes, in addition to levitate.

[Hendrik]

how does handling or seating the wrist/hand fit into the picture?

add loosing the wrist with fingers relax.

[Hendrik]

When powering your movements using the snake engine, do you "express absorb/project energy" on either side of the curves (sticking to, and drawing the opponent into your sphere)

while absorbing can occur separately from the projecting energy (e.g. one arm absorbing while the other arm projects), when done simultaneously it sets up the absorb/project potential (and "spin force") at a single point of contact.

you can use your intent to switch/alternate which side is absorbing and which side is projecting



dont understand what you are you asking or sharing.

[kung fu fighter]

dont understand what you are you asking or sharing.

When applying snake engine technology, is it done by sticking to, and draw the opponent into your sphere by applying absorb/project energy" on either side of the curves (e.g. one arm absorbing while the other arm projects) to simultaneously set up the absorb/project potential (and "spin force") at a single point of contact?

How do you physically express the snake engine?

[Hendrik]

When applying snake engine technology, is it done by sticking to, and draw the opponent into your sphere by applying absorb/project energy" on either side of the curves (e.g. one arm absorbing while the other arm projects) to simultaneously set up the absorb/project potential (and "spin force") at a single point of contact?

How do you physically express the snake engine?



Snake engine is an engine.

it is independent of sticking to, and draw....etc a type of application. what curves? sphere means?

An engine is like a BMW engine, it power the car. That's all.

[kung fu fighter]

Snake engine is an engine.

it is independent of sticking to, and draw....etc a type of application. what curves? sphere means?

An engine is like a BMW engine, it power the car. That's all.

ok, but What i am getting at is how do you expressed techniques usng this engine?

[Hendrik]

ok, but What i am getting at is how do you expressed techniques usng this engine?

It is like driving a car, different people will express in different way based on one's style and how proficient one is on the handling of the 6DFV and the different type of momentum generation/handling.

[t_niehoff]

TN, Whether you like it or not, this is the paradigm which I studied and extrapolated much of my method from - it comes from TCMA, language and culture. Whether it is "real" or "false", it matters not - it is a paradigm which exists from the ancients. Just as the Greeks had a paradigm of Zeus, Hades, etc. if we are to understand, we need to shift to a new pair of lenses. If I were to "translate" the paradigm, I would say, Hendrik is doing "martial arts based on feeling" and "knowing the opponent's intention". This is not different than BJJ's feeling out the opponent and completing their moves as they move, then position and submission.


Why do we need to understand it? How does understanding nonsense help us in any way?

You did not extrapolate your method from "TCMA, language, and culture." WCK is a skill. You learned that skill and then developed it by and through practice. That skill is independent of any paradigm. That is why all theory -- including paradigms -- is bullsh1t. Theory doesn't tell you how to ride a bike or surf or do any skill. Do you need a paradigm to learn to ride a bike? LOL! Theory only gets in the way. And the more theory, the more detailed the theory, the more greater the bullsh1t.

And Hendrik is NOT doing any martial art. THAT is a huge part of the problem. He is not doing it, yet thinking he can tell us how it should be done. Anyone's "understanding" of a skill is limited to their individual level of skill -- a white belt doesn't have a black belt's or even a blue belt's level of understanding. Can someone who can't ride a bike tell us how we should be using our body to ride? Well, Hendrik does.



You are overly doing it in one direction. Treat it as if you were a socio-anthropologist and understand that the language of TCMA existed by the people of that time. It is very different than contemporary Chinese, for example if you look at Spencer's posting of Augustine Fong's Kuen Kuit, it has a modern flavor, as opposed to the classical Chinese writing of Yik Kam writing (remember in Yik Kam's time perhaps 10% of the population could read and write). Yik Kam's choice of characters reflected a highly educated standard as opposed to contemporary Chinese writing. You don't see stuff like that anymore.


If Hendrik wants to preserve that lineage, that's great. But the curriculum isn't the subject matter.



Since I am from the Chan school like Hendrik, the study of "silence" means to let the "ego get out of the way" and "silence the thoughts in your head" so that the "Buddha Nature" which is akin to "God shines through" or your "original nature" of "calm, reflecting and in the moment" allow you to feel and sense your opponent's intentions.


That is all self-delusion. Hendrik wants to think that he can attain this "state" by studying it or doing some practice to get it. He's wrong. The people who do attain that ability are the people who train to fight, as THIS IS A NATURAL BY-PRODUCT OF TRAINING TO FIGHT. And that is why he can't do it -- nor can any TCMAists -- but all good fighters can.



From there you use your mechanics, position and ground and pound, control, etc. We use the paradigms of the ancients like a Rosetta Stone, to glean the insights of generations before.


Our ancestors provided us with an approach to fighting and a method (like the kuit itself says), not a paradigm.



There was a good episode of "Star Trek, the Next Generation", which Picard was trying to communicate with an alien race who used only metaphors and paradigms derived from their history and did not speak a straightforward language based on subject, noun, verb, etc. I can understand your frustration, but dismissing Chinese culture with an ethnocentric POV is limiting.


Yes, all communication is based on common references. Our level of skill -- and the process we go through to get there -- is what provides these common references.



Yes, that is a socio-political product of the modernization of China. The TCMA began to take a turn of modernization with "bourgeois non-intellectual" language. But the demands of a peasant ruler doesn't invalidate 5000 years of culture and history. Maybe you'd be one of the "Red Guard" zealots towards modernization. LOL! :) To dismiss as BS is irresponsible and ethnocentric.


It is bullsh1t because all theory is bullsh1t. What invalidates 5000 years of culture and history is that it doesn't produce results. And never did produce good results.



You are misunderstanding my classification of "Nei Jia" and "Nei Xiu". In here, I am saying "Nei Jia" as a classification of study of inner workings, mechanics, alignment, form, etc., not just a preference of "external" use or function. It is a Nei Xiu (Inner cultivation) as it allows one to understand the dynamic of thought (or perhaps 'non-thought") that the ancients were describing. Again, look at it from a "socio-anthropological" context, as opposed to your dislike of "Tai Ji wimps who can't fight outta a paper bag".


Again, all nonsense. This "paradigm" does not accurately reflect how things really are, how they really work, etc. And that is NOT how the ancients used to think about things -- that whole paradigm, along with many others, like the Shaolin "history", wasn't developed until fairly recently.



Yes, if you cannot understand what is beyond it at face value.


Hendrik isn't offering anything deeper.

PS -

The point of this article could apply here:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/2011/01/12/death-to-obfuscation/

[Liddel]

Gotta laugh at people splitting hairs over the use of the word levitate. I know its not the best word for the point he was trying to make but anyone who's fought should have a clue about what hes getting at. Being mobile / grounded and how to avoid being stiff and or rigid is common through all styles of standup... most are familiar with Ali's float like a butterfly...

And i mean hey if the OP's the type of guy who tells ladies at a bar hes a petroleum transfer engineer and they think hes a big cheese...more power to him. The smart individual knows he just pumps gas :cool:

Cmon people.

[YungChun]

Mirab with sails unfurled..

[imperialtaichi]

If I could use the "cooking" example again....

There are scientists who study the science of cooking; like the boiling point of oil, polymerization of protein etc but had never cooked.

There are chefs who cooks; through experience develop the practical knowledge of when to use the oil and how to tell if the steak is done, without ever needing to use a thermometer.

Some of us are scientists. Some of us are chefs. Some of us are neither. Very few of us are both.

Cheers,
John

[Hendrik]

Gotta laugh at people splitting hairs over the use of the word levitate. I know its not the best word for the point he was trying to make but anyone who's fought should have a clue about what hes getting at. Being mobile / grounded and how to avoid being stiff and or rigid is common through all styles of standup... most are familiar with Ali's float like a butterfly...



You are right, anyone who fought should have some clue.



However, the levitate goes more then just that

because when link with the 6DFV and snake engine it leads to a particular type of signature or momentum handling/generation. So, WCK is different then Boxing or Karate or Shao Lin.....etc... The bottom line is how to activate the SLT training,

which lead to power point exploding type of momentum.

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1072874&postcount=524

otherwise the SLT practice become very in effective or time wasting.





I expect those who fought to post a post like you to have a real discussion or exchange.


however,

it seems that some put themselve up in the heaven by the name of " fighting" but actually only have very partial or limited view.

similar to those religious fanatic who believe their God is the only God but clueless about spiritual practice. In their mind only what they do it right and others are inferior, not seeing they themself is the one who is blind and naive.

[Hendrik]

If I could use the "cooking" example again....

There are scientists who study the science of cooking; like the boiling point of oil, polymerization of protein etc but had never cooked.

There are chefs who cooks; through experience develop the practical knowledge of when to use the oil and how to tell if the steak is done, without ever needing to use a thermometer.

Some of us are scientists. Some of us are chefs. Some of us are neither. Very few of us are both.

Cheers,
John


John,

If some one said Wei Shu Ren just do taiji chinese qi nonsense; he doesnt do fighting like mma or bjj ;so he doesnt know how to fight, will you buy that? and is what those said is a reality?

[LoneTiger108]

Again, a thread so simple seems to be booming, which I find very interesting. Also good to see everyone saying their piece, so I thought I'd try to add to my last post here which Robert referred to in his response to T...


Treat it (the language used in kuit) as if you were a socio-anthropologist and understand that the language of TCMA existed by the people of that time. It is very different than contemporary Chinese, for example if you look at Spencer's posting of Augustine Fong's Kuen Kuit, it has a modern flavor, as opposed to the classical Chinese writing of Yik Kam writing (remember in Yik Kam's time perhaps 10% of the population could read and write). Yik Kam's choice of characters reflected a highly educated standard as opposed to contemporary Chinese writing. You don't see stuff like that anymore.

I would disagree here. I do see stuff like this. I learnt that way! The only reason I posted the terms from wingchunpedia.org was to illustrate something I think we are all missing. An understanding that 'study' must be considered by the future generations of Sifus imho.

Maybe only Joy could answer this, but I was under the impression that Ip Man penned this original literature on the forms, which would be directly connected to Leung Jans writings (he didn't just write a medical journal y'know!) and Sifu Fong gained access to them through his learning. So, for you to suggest that ip Man was not a 'learned scholar' I find a bit disrepectful. Also considering the lines Moy Yat presented in his kuit too, which were commissioned by Ip Man, they are snapshots in time and the language is all pretty similar throughout the ages. More modern than the classics I agree, but more precise in many ways.

Also, if you look at classical literature, which was possibly the norm in Yik Kams day like you suggest, the texts describing training regimes and especially Taiji instruction were very vague. And this is very similar to what I have learnt too, except that there is an order to the chaos. It has specifics that lead to the next challenge and almost like it's using coded descriptions to be more 'hidden'. In fact, if it relates to a specific movement you just wouldn't know unless you had been shown, and I believe this style of writing is connected to Leung Jan.

Personally I don't find that type of writing 'basic' or 'modern' at all. And if you look at a whole piece as a 'manual' the terms present and the way it is written leans more towards poetic 4 by 4, 4 by 3 lines (which also has a different 'meaning') I'm pretty sure that the writings presented by Sifu Fong on SLT have this flavour too, but I may be mistaken.

[Hendrik]

Personally I don't find that type of writing 'basic' or 'modern' at all. And if you look at a whole piece as a 'manual' the terms present and the way it is written leans more towards poetic 4 by 4, 4 by 3 lines (which also has a different 'meaning')

poetic 4 by 4.... is just a format. it says nothing more then that.


The use of words in a certain classical way and signature with will tell one what it is, so for those who knows classical chinese could tell the modern, the classical, the lower level saying....etc type.

unless one is deep into those stuffs, there is no point to argue the obvious similar to I would not argue shakespear with those who's mother tounge is English and doing shakespear researh in Cambridge university UK.

[CFT]

Spencer, do you read Chinese or are you using character by character translation?

There is a real qualitative difference IMO between those 4 Yik Kam SLT stanzas and the regular "loi lau hoi sung" type of kuen kuit. You'd be losing a lot of the "feel" in translation.

The YK stanzas read more as an instruction set for self cultivation whereas the other kuit are just more generic. Just because they are arranged in 4-character couplets doesn't make them "classical Chinese".

[Vajramusti]

Without some hands on guidance ina good teaching tradition and some devloped "tacit knowledge" of the subject- the kuen kuit-s are subject to
subjective and often wrong interpretations.
Scholarship is good but operational meanings gleaned from texts can be problematic.IMO, FWIW.

joy chaudhuri

[CFT]

^^
I agree. Kuen kuit are just snappy one-liners, like chapter titles. There should be a whole body of knowledge behind them.

[Hendrik]

Spencer, do you read Chinese or are you using character by character translation?

There is a real qualitative difference IMO between those 4 Yik Kam SLT stanzas and the regular "loi lau hoi sung" type of kuen kuit. You'd be losing a lot of the "feel" in translation.

The YK stanzas read more as an instruction set for self cultivation whereas the other kuit are just more generic. Just because they are arranged in 4-character couplets doesn't make them "classical Chinese".


Emei kuit is even more details compare with the Yik Kam SLT kuit.
For those who read chinese, the following is the first few Emei 12 Zhuang kuit.



Emei

气平正立平肩裆，
两掌前起半阴阳。
后臂平肩等胸阔，
前肘微屈对鼻梁。
大指翘立齐眉际，
四指轻联并雁行。
再将左右任分腿，
平肩扩大一字裆。.......
换合丹田督脉降。


Also take a look and compare with the Yik Kam SLT kuit and see what do you see on the itelics. This is just a small part but it starts my curiosity journey decades ago when I found out the first stanza of the emei and the first stanza of the Yik Kam SLT is actually instruct to arive at the same state. and look at the use of the words where there is to much coincident...


Well somedays I will post a complete finding of these stuffs out to show the world what the heck is going on. it is like playing detective . practically who ever create the SLT got catch by evidence. s/he might not expect we could catch her/him after 200 years.

My late sifu told me the Yik Kam kuit is absolutely private reserve since 1840, the emei gate keeper said the Emei kuit only hand down to one person since some 800 years ago to 1950 when it was public released, well, then why the heck it appear in the Red Boat 1840? hahaha

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, do you read Chinese or are you using character by character translation?

I used the translations provided by wingchunpedia.org so that was not my work. The only Chinese I 'read' is from the curriculums I have inherited. I'm totally amateur too and my Sifu claims no 'formal' training as he was taught to read and write by Lee Shing in Londons Chinatown! I try to write as much as I can too, but sadly not as much as I'd like to. Again, having a Cantonese Sifu has also affected me because I don't like the idea of learning Mandarin and that's all you can formally study here in London. Very hard to find a Cantonese GCSE or A level, and that is the language I understand (in the Wing Chun terms and curriculum sence!!)


The YK stanzas read more as an instruction set for self cultivation whereas the other kuit are just more generic. Just because they are arranged in 4-character couplets doesn't make them "classical Chinese".

Okay I understand that. But I have been exposed to far more lines than the kuit that I have seen online, and these texts do tend to have the classical flavour imho. Which is why I think they're linked to Leung Jan himself.

[chusauli]

Again, a thread so simple seems to be booming, which I find very interesting. Also good to see everyone saying their piece, so I thought I'd try to add to my last post here which Robert referred to in his response to T...



I would disagree here. I do see stuff like this. I learnt that way! The only reason I posted the terms from wingchunpedia.org was to illustrate something I think we are all missing. An understanding that 'study' must be considered by the future generations of Sifus imho.

Maybe only Joy could answer this, but I was under the impression that Ip Man penned this original literature on the forms, which would be directly connected to Leung Jans writings (he didn't just write a medical journal y'know!) and Sifu Fong gained access to them through his learning. So, for you to suggest that ip Man was not a 'learned scholar' I find a bit disrepectful. Also considering the lines Moy Yat presented in his kuit too, which were commissioned by Ip Man, they are snapshots in time and the language is all pretty similar throughout the ages. More modern than the classics I agree, but more precise in many ways.

Also, if you look at classical literature, which was possibly the norm in Yik Kams day like you suggest, the texts describing training regimes and especially Taiji instruction were very vague. And this is very similar to what I have learnt too, except that there is an order to the chaos. It has specifics that lead to the next challenge and almost like it's using coded descriptions to be more 'hidden'. In fact, if it relates to a specific movement you just wouldn't know unless you had been shown, and I believe this style of writing is connected to Leung Jan.

Personally I don't find that type of writing 'basic' or 'modern' at all. And if you look at a whole piece as a 'manual' the terms present and the way it is written leans more towards poetic 4 by 4, 4 by 3 lines (which also has a different 'meaning') I'm pretty sure that the writings presented by Sifu Fong on SLT have this flavour too, but I may be mistaken.

Spencer,

Ip Man was my Sigung, so when you say you find it a bit disrespectful, I have to say you are mistaken, and this again comes from your own inference.

Ip Man was more of a modern scholar, not a classical scholar as evidenced by his writings. China was already changing in Ip Man's childhood towards modernization.

When you compare his sayings to the Yik Kam writings, you can see a world of difference in a classical sense. Terms and jargon are different than common WCK sayings. Only a scholar of high calibur, versed in medicine, Buddhism and culture of a different era would produce these.

An example is trying to read old editions of Huang Di Nei Jing without modern commentary. Although I am versed in Traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture and other methods, its a lot to digest and comprehend. The style of writing is completely different from modern Chinese medical texts. Perhaps you should speak with learned scholars and compare them.

I am tempted to roll my eyes with your ignorance, but it is better to be kind to ignorant people.

[Hendrik]

Some more from Emei for those who think Emei is not a martial art...

Just some brief translation here


擒拿化封闭 Capture, hold, dissolve, seal off, close up

粑粘联钩搭 Craw, stick, align, hook, join

套托随绷挤 wrap, lift, follow, tightent, press


粑刁手腕断，craw and hook breaking the wrist,

绷挤骨胁碎。tightent up and press breaking the ribs,

大开拿阴肘，open up to capture the yin side of the elbow,

掉身背挤敌， turn the body using the back to press the opponent.

粑粘寻掌腕, Craw and stick to search for palm wrist

揉套审彼力, push and trap to test its power.....




For those of you who is from YKS lineage take a look all these Kam Na, Tap,.....etc.


I believe these technics is a based of SLT creation.



　　　　　　　

[LoneTiger108]

poetic 4 by 4.... is just a format. it says nothing more then that.

The use of words in a certain classical way and signature with will tell one what it is, so for those who knows classical chinese could tell the modern, the classical, the lower level saying....etc type.

So what would you say is Wing Chuns background?? It definitely wasn't for the higher ends of society imho, so the original language and terms would be more 'folk like' and common than anything else no?


unless one is deep into those stuffs, there is no point to argue the obvious similar to I would not argue shakespear with those who's mother tounge is English and doing shakespear researh in Cambridge university UK.

Dude, I aint arguing about anything. Just trying to make sense of what you're putting out here to the general 'Wing Chun' community. If what you recommend is that we all become Degree holders in Mandarin to understand what you're saying I think you'll have a battle on your hands.

How about sharing some detail on what these types of language will sound like, or look like on paper in comparison to the 'village yokel' stuff you say is inherent in Wing Chun? Just a thought...

[Hendrik]

An example is trying to read old editions of Huang Di Nei Jing without modern commentary. Although I am versed in Traditional Chinese medicine and acupuncture and other methods, its a lot to digest and comprehend. The style of writing is completely different from modern Chinese medical texts. Perhaps you should speak with learned scholars and compare them.



Robert is correct.

[LoneTiger108]

I am tempted to roll my eyes with your ignorance, but it is better to be kind to ignorant people.

Roll away Robert! :rolleyes: You know you want to...

Just from reading this you make me question exactly what you have 'seen' or been 'taught' that was 'Ip Mans writings' on Wing Chun? Magazine articles? Curricullums? Kuen Kuit??

Very intersting that you too think that I am being ignorant.

I am only searching for people who have been exposed to learning through literature, as you already know. So why try to be a smarta$$ about it? Wasn't it you who described my Sifu as a 'village yokel' when I attempted to discuss this type of thing before??

Structured curriculum maybe considered more modern, if you like, but imho curricullae are not defined by time or 'class'.

Is this language of a village yokel??
http://www.theyumyeurngacademy.co.uk/Curriculum/foundation/foundation.html

If its so common, please tell me what it is exactly. Maybe Hendrik can help.

[chusauli]

I used the translations provided by wingchunpedia.org so that was not my work. The only Chinese I 'read' is from the curriculums I have inherited. I'm totally amateur too and my Sifu claims no 'formal' training as he was taught to read and write by Lee Shing in Londons Chinatown! I try to write as much as I can too, but sadly not as much as I'd like to. Again, having a Cantonese Sifu has also affected me because I don't like the idea of learning Mandarin and that's all you can formally study here in London. Very hard to find a Cantonese GCSE or A level, and that is the language I understand (in the Wing Chun terms and curriculum sence!!)

Okay I understand that. But I have been exposed to far more lines than the kuit that I have seen online, and these texts do tend to have the classical flavour imho. Which is why I think they're linked to Leung Jan himself.

You don't like Mandarin? What have you against it? Is this some local London Cantonese Chinese prejudice you reek of? Mandarin is the Standardized Chinese used since the Qing Dynasty... it has standardized romanization, too. Granted, Cantonese is the current tongue of WCK (but perhaps it was Fujian at one time.) Most modern day educated people are learned in Mandarin in China, Taiwan, Singapore, SE Asia. Even most educated HK Chinese speak Mandarin. In NYC in the old days everyone spoke Toishan, but nowadays people in NYC are speaking Mandarin to communicate amongst the Chiuchow, Hmong, Fujianese, Cantonese, and Mainland Chinese.

WSL VT teacher David Peterson is completely fluent in Mandarin and even teaches it in Australia, and Mandarin allows a Shanghai/Jiangsu boy like me to speak to Fujian Indonesian Hendrik with clarity. I also have to speak Mandarin locally in L.A. to speak to people from Vietnam, HK, China and Taiwan and SE Asia.

Mandarin is akin to the Queens English, and although educated Cantonese can also be. Most street Cantonese is equivalent to your ****ney English....

Spencer, 1.2 billion Chinese can't be Wong (or should I say Huang)? :) Go do some Mandarin classes and then reread the classics and you may learn something. Sir, again you reek of ignorance.

[Hendrik]

Maybe Hendrik can help.

I wont comment because these days I rather be nice then be right.


However, what I can offer to you is that, what you and majority of WCners have not seen what it is yet. So, keep digging somedays you will get there.

As Garry Lam presenting the Contact point power signature of WCK power generation, it is obvious the way of doing SLT will no longer be the same soon.

[LoneTiger108]

You don't like Mandarin? What have you against it? Is this some local London Cantonese Chinese prejudice you reek of?

:D Maybe. But no. I just identify more with Cantonese than I do Mandarin. Grew up with it here in London and appreciate that the language is a fading cultural dialect that will forever be linked with Wing Chun imho, or this would already be a Yong Chun forum.


Mandarin is akin to the Queens English, and although educated Cantonese can also be. Most street Cantonese is equivalent to your ****ney English....

And you have something against common people? Do I sense some sort of hierarchy led tones here Robert? Like being posh or sumfin? And FWIW I am very proud to be a 4th generation Londoner with a twang! Doesn't make me prejudice or ingnorant imo.

I would love to learn Mandarin, for business. But my Wing Chun will always be Cantonese lead as that is how I was taught and it's what I'm comfortable with.

[LoneTiger108]

However, what I can offer to you is that, what you and majority of WCners have not seen what it is yet. So, keep digging somedays you will get there.

Now if I come off as ignorant, what does this say about you Hendrik? Condescending tones from a pair of forum bullies who need to gang up together to try to avoid answering my questions. Funny how things work out eh?

Believe me, I'm always digging. Always learning and evolving within my Wing Chun but thanks for the advice.


As Garry Lam presenting the Contact point power signature of WCK power generation, it is obvious the way of doing SLT will no longer be the same soon.

Sorry, but what Gary Lam says and does with his Wing Chun has no bearing whatsoever on the development of the Lee Shing Family, or how I personally view SLT. I find his teachings very good, and again, coming from WSL he has a very unique approach to training which I will always have respect for.

That's basically how I am towards other Martial Artists who have spent their lives promoting Wing Chun. There's many decent schools in London and the UK too who have done this. Many families and many ways all within a City that has welcomed them all.

Man, it's great being a Londoner! :)

[CFT]

So what would you say is Wing Chuns background?? It definitely wasn't for the higher ends of society imho, so the original language and terms would be more 'folk like' and common than anything else no?Seems a bit of a mix to be honest. Take YIp Man and Yuen Kay San. Both sons of moneyed families. YM paid xx-pieces of silver to Chan Wah Shun to be accepted as a student. Yuen family paid for Fung Siu Ching and Fok Bo Chuen to personally train their sons in residence. In one of the DVD releases of "The Prodigal Son", Guy Lai the WCK consultant on the film relates how you had to have money to learn WCK in the old days because it was a one-on-one teaching method rather than the "bodies in a row" type of training like Hung Gar.

Of course things must have changed because Sum Nung started teaching to various worker unions, similarly with Yip Man in HK.

[chusauli]

:D Maybe. But no. I just identify more with Cantonese than I do Mandarin. Grew up with it here in London and appreciate that the language is a fading cultural dialect that will forever be linked with Wing Chun imho, or this would already be a Yong Chun forum.



And you have something against common people? Do I sense some sort of hierarchy led tones here Robert? Like being posh or sumfin? And FWIW I am very proud to be a 4th generation Londoner with a twang! Doesn't make me prejudice or ingnorant imo.

I would love to learn Mandarin, for business. But my Wing Chun will always be Cantonese lead as that is how I was taught and it's what I'm comfortable with.

Nothing wrong with common, I am a common person. As I said, educated Cantonese is almost the same as Mandarin, akin to the Queen's English. Street Cantonese is akin to your more common English.

My Sifu, Lui Yon Sang was an educated scholar in the traditional sense and spoke Cantonese. His commentary on Fei Lung Fu Gwun was educated and poetic.

Finding educated Chinese in the martial arts world is quite rare.

[Hendrik]

Now if I come off as ignorant, what does this say about you Hendrik? Condescending tones from a pair of forum bullies who need to gang up together to try to avoid answering my questions. Funny how things work out eh?


Did I say you ignorant? I didnt right?

I just tell you my choice.

Answer, oh, we all love answer, but when the original face is reveal how many of us can take it? 0.1%?





Sorry, but what Gary Lam says and does with his Wing Chun has no bearing whatsoever on the development of the Lee Shing Family, or how I personally view SLT. I find his teachings very good, and again, coming from WSL he has a very unique approach to training which I will always have respect for.

Your view certainly is respectable.

However, if you look at reality such as compare Austin Goh's art with Gary's Art you will see Austin's art has evolved toward Southern TCMA. However, Gary' art even is evolve, has preserved certain characteristics such as the letting go and power point explosion which are very WCK which is different then Austin's art. To evolve further, Gary's art has a trace of WCK while Austin's might do some WCK sets but the trace is fading. That is the reality.




That's basically how I am towards other Martial Artists who have spent their lives promoting Wing Chun. There's many decent schools in London and the UK too who have done this. Many families and many ways all within a City that has welcomed them all.


We always need to respect people who has spent their lives promoting and art. However, we also need to be clear that what is the quality or the subject of the art they promote. Those are two different subjects.

and sometimes, both to tell the truth and to listen to the truth are both painful.
So again, I rather not to tell because that way no one is in pain. and truth sometimes doesnt matter anyway because we all will passed and the world keep spin.

[imperialtaichi]

John,

If some one said Wei Shu Ren just do taiji chinese qi nonsense; he doesnt do fighting like mma or bjj ;so he doesnt know how to fight, will you buy that? and is what those said is a reality?

Hello Hendrik,

I get that all the time. I don't argue my points with anyone. I just invite people to cross hands with me and see it for themselves.

To be honest, Master Wei is not interested, nor his teaching focused on fighting. His focus is on the manipulation of Shen Yi Qi. His teaching is invaluable in helping anyone understand the mind body interaction, in your own body and the opponents'; which can be applied in fighting and benefitted my KLWC training tremendously.

Master Leung, my KL teacher, on the other hand is totally fighting orientated. His gang is always involved in gang fights; my favorite training brother spent years in a Chinese prison after killing 3 people in a fight; just his experience alone in fighting in jail is priceless. For them, fighting is a matter of survival. Master Leung, while holding a lot of pride in his art and the ability of his students, also has a lot of respect for Master Wei.

Basically, one becomes good at what one has to do all the time, and the environment surrounding him. If one wants to be a fighter, one needs to be trained around fighters. If one wants to develop theoretic skills, one needs to be surrounded by skilled theorists. If we live by the sword, we also die by the sword. We choose our path and be happy with it.

Cheers,
John

[GlennR]

Hello Hendrik,

I get that all the time. I don't argue my points with anyone. I just invite people to cross hands with me and see it for themselves.

To be honest, Master Wei is not interested, nor his teaching focused on fighting. His focus is on the manipulation of Shen Yi Qi. His teaching is invaluable in helping anyone understand the mind body interaction, in your own body and the opponents'; which can be applied in fighting and benefitted my KLWC training tremendously.

Master Leung, my KL teacher, on the other hand is totally fighting orientated. His gang is always involved in gang fights; my favorite training brother spent years in a Chinese prison after killing 3 people in a fight; just his experience alone in fighting in jail is priceless. For them, fighting is a matter of survival. Master Leung, while holding a lot of pride in his art and the ability of his students, also has a lot of respect for Master Wei.

Basically, one becomes good at what one has to do all the time, and the environment surrounding him. If one wants to be a fighter, one needs to be trained around fighters. If one wants to develop theoretic skills, one needs to be surrounded by skilled theorists. If we live by the sword, we also die by the sword. We choose our path and be happy with it.

Cheers,
John

Hi John
So at the end of the day do you have a favourite?

The WC or the TC?

Regards
GlennR

[chusauli]

Roll away Robert! :rolleyes: You know you want to...

LOL! That's your drama (closet?) queen trademark! I don't want to steal your thunder! LOL!

Spencer, all in fun!

[Hendrik]

Hello Hendrik,

I get that all the time. I don't argue my points with anyone. I just invite people to cross hands with me and see it for themselves.

To be honest, Master Wei is not interested, nor his teaching focused on fighting. His focus is on the manipulation of Shen Yi Qi. His teaching is invaluable in helping anyone understand the mind body interaction, in your own body and the opponents'; which can be applied in fighting and benefitted my KLWC training tremendously.

Master Leung, my KL teacher, on the other hand is totally fighting orientated. His gang is always involved in gang fights; my favorite training brother spent years in a Chinese prison after killing 3 people in a fight; just his experience alone in fighting in jail is priceless. For them, fighting is a matter of survival. Master Leung, while holding a lot of pride in his art and the ability of his students, also has a lot of respect for Master Wei.

Basically, one becomes good at what one has to do all the time, and the environment surrounding him. If one wants to be a fighter, one needs to be trained around fighters. If one wants to develop theoretic skills, one needs to be surrounded by skilled theorists. If we live by the sword, we also die by the sword. We choose our path and be happy with it.

Cheers,
John

John,

Thank you for you to taking your time to share these above with us.
I agree with your view totally.

For me reality is not like a religion of my God is the only God. there are many ways as in that old song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGjolchJ9tU&feature=related

[imperialtaichi]

Hi John
So at the end of the day do you have a favourite?

The WC or the TC?

Regards
GlennR

Hello Glenn,

I've done a number of stuff but it boils down to the IYTC and KL22 I like most. There is one more I like, the "Tian Style Yin Yang Bagua Zhang" but I force myself not to learn it because it is too vicious. I am naturally a very bad tampered person (although I do my very best to control my tamper) so if I do the YYBGZ I will just end up in a dark place. Another one I like is Wang Kam Leung's Practical Wing Chun. He had given me a lot of very practical advice, I thank him immensely but I just do not have the time or resources to start anything new at the moment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM_KgCSMtMM

The IYTC, I have semi-given up on teaching it out. It is just way too complex, and most people drift off before they can get anything much out of it. Which is bit of a shame.

KL22 on the other hand, is so practical that in today's world, where everyone wants result by popping a pill, everyone love KL22.

Plus, I do like to kick ass ;)

Cheers,
John

[chusauli]

Seems a bit of a mix to be honest. Take YIp Man and Yuen Kay San. Both sons of moneyed families. YM paid xx-pieces of silver to Chan Wah Shun to be accepted as a student. Yuen family paid for Fung Siu Ching and Fok Bo Chuen to personally train their sons in residence. In one of the DVD releases of "The Prodigal Son", Guy Lai the WCK consultant on the film relates how you had to have money to learn WCK in the old days because it was a one-on-one teaching method rather than the "bodies in a row" type of training like Hung Gar.

Of course things must have changed because Sum Nung started teaching to various worker unions, similarly with Yip Man in HK.


In the Futshan period of WCK, after WCK left the Opera, WCK was a martial art of the bourgeois merchants, whereas CLF and Hung Ga was the martial art of the working class consisting of farmers and workers.

Had Ip Man stayed in Communist China, he might have become a victim of "re-education".

[GlennR]

Hello Glenn,

I've done a number of stuff but it boils down to the IYTC and KL22 I like most. There is one more I like, the "Tian Style Yin Yang Bagua Zhang" but I force myself not to learn it because it is too vicious. I am naturally a very bad tampered person (although I do my very best to control my tamper) so if I do the YYBGZ I will just end up in a dark place. Another one I like is Wang Kam Leung's Practical Wing Chun. He had given me a lot of very practical advice, I thank him immensely but I just do not have the time or resources to start anything new at the moment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM_KgCSMtMM

The IYTC, I have semi-given up on teaching it out. It is just way too complex, and most people drift off before they can get anything much out of it. Which is bit of a shame.

KL22 on the other hand, is so practical that in today's world, where everyone wants result by popping a pill, everyone love KL22.

Plus, I do like to kick ass ;)

Cheers,
John

Thanks again John
Looking forward to catching up soon and comparing experiences
Regards
GlennR

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer, all in fun!

Please remember that if any of my future posts seem to be bad tempered. I'm really not that bad once you get to know me, but in all fairness both yourself and Hendrik have still avoided some of my more simple questions and sometimes sound like you haven't read my posts either...


However, if you look at reality such as compare Austin Goh's art with Gary's Art you will see Austin's art has evolved toward Southern TCMA. However, Gary' art even is evolve, has preserved certain characteristics such as the letting go and power point explosion which are very WCK which is different then Austin's art. To evolve further, Gary's art has a trace of WCK while Austin's might do some WCK sets but the trace is fading. That is the reality.

Sorry to pick on you this time Hendrik, but again you use an example of 'what LSWC is' here with no real experience of learning from anyone in the family and possibly using a single youtube form clip to present a point (which is still valid by the way!) Yes, the hard heigung clip may be highlighting more of a Southern TCMA approach but that isn't the only way Austin teaches his SLT. But if you're interested in his hard heigung stuffs I suggest you read up on them http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Power-Wing-Chun-Austin/dp/0901764647/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295441107&sr=1-1

Again, I know I'm jumping and being all defensive but it's because you seem to get hold of a little bit of info and hang on to it like a rotweiller! When will you let it go??

[Hendrik]

Sorry to pick on you this time Hendrik, but again you use an example of 'what LSWC is' here with no real experience of learning from anyone in the family and possibly using a single youtube form clip to present a point (which is still valid by the way!) Yes, the hard heigung clip may be highlighting more of a Southern TCMA approach but that isn't the only way Austin teaches his SLT. But if you're interested in his hard heigung stuffs I suggest you read up on them http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Power-Wing-Chun-Austin/dp/0901764647/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295441107&sr=1-1

Again, I know I'm jumping and being all defensive but it's because you seem to get hold of a little bit of info and hang on to it like a rotweiller! When will you let it go??


You know, if you read my post on the power point explosion.

One's physical body is an accumulation of a long term conditioning, so one could take a look at the physical body signature and know what kind of momentum that particular physical body could handle.

In the Austin Goh type, he probably is good on what he is doing. however his body also show the signature of what his momentum handling path is.


One cant condition the body one way and expect it to perform in a different way of momentum handling.

So, again, what is the LSWC signature? if it is not Austin, not your's, not others' signature? One can keep saying dont label me this, dont lable me that..... so tell us what type of label is LSWC?

[LoneTiger108]

So, again, what is the LSWC signature? if it is not Austin, not your's, not others' signature? One can keep saying dont label me this, dont lable me that..... so tell us what type of label is LSWC?

I have already shared this information with you Hendrik (?!) You must be posting so much these days they have all become one ;)

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik,
Would you say that Gary lam has also cultivated the snake engine and hua jing or does he have a different type of engine/power generation?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,
Would you say that Gary lam has also cultivated the snake engine and hua jing or does he have a different type of engine/power generation?


Every WCner has those only a matter of more or less. some can use it some cant.

[kung fu fighter]

Every WCner has those only a matter of more or less. some can use it some cant.

do you see them in Gary's movements, does he use them fully?

[Hendrik]

do you see them in Gary's movements, does he use them fully?

What do you expect when he had post an article on power point explosion?

Can a general Joe A or Steve B even other Sifu class of Wcner describe the same thing as Gary? if not what does it tell you?

[kung fu fighter]

What do you expect when he had post an article on power point explosion?

Can a general Joe A or Steve B even other Sifu class of Wcner describe the same thing as Gary? if not what does it tell you?

so you are confirming that he does fully utilize both the snake engine and hua jing in his movements?

[Hendrik]

so you are confirming that he does fully utilize both the snake engine and hua jing in his movements?

Why dont you go meet Gary and find out? I dont know Gary beside read his article.

Similar to I dont know TST beside seeing the clip you post.

[kung fu fighter]

Why dont you go meet Gary and find out? I dont know Gary beside read his article.

Similar to I dont know TST beside seeing the clip you post.

I met Gary about 2 years ago, but I don't have the snake engine and hua jing reference that you have, so i wasn't able to judge.

Would you say Gary demonstrated the snake engine and hua jing in this clip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz5M-jBHyxE&feature=related

[Hendrik]

I met Gary about 2 years ago, but I don't have the snake engine and hua jing reference that you have, so i wasn't able to judge.

Would you say Gary demonstrated the snake engine and hua jing in this clip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz5M-jBHyxE&feature=related


now with you know more I suggest you go visit him again. if one doesnt meet the person one cant really tell much.

[kung fu fighter]

now with you know more I suggest you go visit him again. if one doesnt meet the person one cant really tell much.

I find it interesting that you can tell that Gary Lam has momentum handling control and Power Point Exploding, but when I ask you a simple question as to weather he demonstrated the snake engine or hua jing, you suggest I go visit him instead of a simple yes or no answer:)

[GlennR]

Why dont you go meet Gary and find out? I dont know Gary beside read his article.

Similar to I dont know TST beside seeing the clip you post.

Then if you dont "know" either , why use them as reference points?

[Hendrik]

Then if you dont "know" either , why use them as reference points?

Knowing a specific of their work and commenting everything on them is a different matter.

[GlennR]

Knowing a specific of their work and commenting everything on them is a different matter.

But arent you a "snake engine" expert?

Why cant you answer KFF's question from looking at a video?

[Hendrik]

But arent you a "snake engine" expert?

Why cant you answer KFF's question from looking at a video?



I dont read mind, sorry.

[GlennR]

I dont read mind, sorry.

So "snake engine" is all in the mind?

[Hendrik]

So "snake engine" is all in the mind?

one can hide one's art at will.
and it is very benificial to hide one's art and caught others in suprise.

[GlennR]

one can hide one's art at will.
and it is very benificial to hide one's art and caught others in suprise.

So Gary Lam is hiding his art in his clips?
Or isnt he?
Or are you making all this up?

[imperialtaichi]

Thanks again John
Looking forward to catching up soon and comparing experiences
Regards
GlennR

Hey Glenn,

Looking forward to it. My arms are itching ;)

Cheers,
John

[Hendrik]

So Gary Lam is hiding his art in his clips?
Or isnt he?
Or are you making all this up?


Who knows? I dont know, if you want to find out sifu Gary's art go visit him. Dont ask me.
and stop twisting subject asking nonsense question.

[GlennR]

Who knows? I dont know, if you want to find out sifu Gary's art go visit him. Dont ask me.
and stop twisting subject asking nonsense question.

Hey.... im just wondering why you are asked about wether a WC exponent uses "snake engine" yet you wont whilst you are happy to post this in your initial post...

"I called it levitate because it feels like levitate when every joints are not hold on to something or lock up.

and only at this state that the "snake engine" activate because every joints sync with other joints and make up of the whole body without and break down in between --- ideally from the toes to the finger tip."


KFF's question was a simple one put forward to yourself who,as you infer in the above post, is knowledgable in the area, yet you cant or wont answer it????

So are you saying you cant identify "snake engine" by visual means?

If thats the case how do you identify it??

[LoneTiger108]

I met Gary about 2 years ago, but I don't have the snake engine and hua jing reference that you have, so i wasn't able to judge.

Would you say Gary demonstrated the snake engine and hua jing in this clip?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz5M-jBHyxE&feature=related

I really couldn't comment about "snake engine" but from what I see in this particular clip, Gary is using more hard gung lik type methods, but that's generally what everyone in Ip Family do with the 108. Very casual and very cool imo!

[Vajramusti]

I really couldn't comment about "snake engine" but from what I see in this particular clip, Gary is using more hard gung lik type methods, but that's generally what everyone in Ip Family do with the 108. Very casual and very cool imo!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An over generalization.

joy

[Hendrik]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An over generalization.

joy



Joy, I agree. thus, I wont comment.

[LoneTiger108]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An over generalization.

joy

So generally Ip Family (including Lee Shing) don't teach the 108 in this manner? Please explain why you think it's an over generalization Joy. And perhaps even give advice on what Gary is doing in his clip.

Is he using the "snake engine" or not?

[chusauli]

Within the cultural context, sure, but outside of it, what is the point of using a term and using it in the wrong way, or using it when you know it was give the wrong idea?

Paul,

This got sidetracked big time. I'm sorry I didn't answer sooner.

I will say that you look at it as "this is what they knew then, their language, their technology, their customs", and "this is our paradigm now, and how we look at it, how we translate it, using our knowledge, customs, and technology today".

In this way, we understand the traditions and see where we came from and how we evolved.

You look at Japanese Jiujitsu compared to BJJ. JJJ was when armored and last minute disarmed, and then used to break necks or limbs of armored opponents. Nobody wears the armor today except in shows. BJJ today is a great sport and martial art of ground fighting, but the useful elements came from wrestling, JJJ/Judo, and perhaps Sambo.

Is JJJ no good? Or is it, this is what they knew then, their language, their technology, their customs"?

And then BJJ, is it superior? Or is it more, "this is our paradigm now, and how we look at it, how we translate it, using our knowledge, customs, and technology today"?

Its what you do with it and what you like.

[Vajramusti]

So generally Ip Family (including Lee Shing) don't teach the 108 in this manner? Please explain why you think it's an over generalization Joy. And perhaps even give advice on what Gary is doing in his clip.

Is he using the "snake engine" or not?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMO, note again- IMO- Ip Man did not teach very many people the details of the motions on the jong. You recall the wll known fact that Bruce Lee did NOT know Ip Man's dummy work.
BTW I recall Joseph Cheng;s book on the jong, Moy Yat's and others. I have seen jong books and videos.I did not learn from any of them.

But I avoid opening a can of worms as far as possible by commenting on other wing chun sifus in this often out of control chat forum. I learnt by hands on teaching by sifu, some corrections by sigung and practice and experience.

One has to see wing chun at close quarters- and FEEL as much as possible the particular kind of power that is being used.

With careful observation of the Ip Man clip doing thigs on the dummy just before his death when he was ill and weak and really didn't have "muscles" to speak of you can sense the ********y(v-i-br-a-t-ory) power not just gung lik. ********y power that does not bounce back.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

I will say that you look at it as "this is what they knew then, their language, their technology, their customs", and "this is our paradigm now, and how we look at it, how we translate it, using our knowledge, customs, and technology today".

In this way, we understand the traditions and see where we came from and how we evolved.
.



Robert,

I totally totally agree with your view.

[GlennR]

Ok cool.... so you cant identify "snake engine" fro a clip.

Im happy with that ;)

[YouKnowWho]

Ok cool.... so you cant identify "snake engine" fro a clip.

Im happy with that ;)

The "snake engine" and "eel engine" are similiar. It's very hard to tell the difference.

Onetime I asked a guy, "Are you training white ape style?" He responsed, "No! I'm training monkey style. My style of monkey has longer arms"

No matter how long that I have trained, I will never be able to tell whether a guy who trains "black dragon" style or "green dragon" style.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The "snake engine" and "eel engine" are similiar. It's very hard to tell the difference.

Onetime I asked a guy, "Are you training white ape style?" He responsed, "No! I'm training monkey style. My style of monkey has longer arms"

No matter how long that I have trained, I will never be able to tell whether a guy who trains "black dragon" style or "green dragon" style.

That's probably because MAN is MAN and not anything else, LOL !!

[YiQuanOne]

I just dug up this long discussion on advanced training.

I agree with all Hendrik's posts, they are very clear if you have reached that level.

But if you have not taken the steps to reach that level you will not have a clue what he is trying to tell you.

I do have to say thou that he was very patient in breaking things down into pretty good detail, but a lot of stuff is at an advanced level that cannot be even comprehended until you acquire the basic internal core relationship.

[anerlich]

but a lot of stuff is at an advanced level that cannot be even comprehended until you acquire the basic internal core relationship

Yeah, like only smart people can see the Emperor's new clothes.:p

[YiQuanOne]

Yeah, like only smart people can see the Emperor's new clothes.:p


You need to put your time in for sure. I can't just say do this do that, you will need to build your own house so to speak.

You can't steal my house, have to build your own. No emperors cloths metaphor, does not apply.

[anerlich]

You need to put your time in for sure.

I spent quite a few years in IMA. Enough.


I can't just say do this do that

I'd prefer you kept quiet. Especially while you're on that condescending pedestal.


You can't steal my house, have to build your own. No emperors cloths metaphor, does not apply

I don't want your f***ing house. Jeez, and you lecture me on inappropriate metaphors.:rolleyes:

[YiQuanOne]

I spent quite a few years in IMA. Enough.



I'd prefer you kept quiet. Especially while you're on that condescending pedestal..

I don't want your f***ing house. Jeez, and you lecture me on inappropriate metaphors.:rolleyes:


Well I guess you must have done it wrong.


If you don't undwerstand the discussion, I suggest you be quiet, maybe you will learn something.




Good, you can't have my house, you need to build your own.

Here is a saying " If I find myself, they will appear" does that make sense to anyone?

[WC1277]

Well I guess you must have done it wrong.


If you don't undwerstand the discussion, I suggest you be quiet, maybe you will learn something.




Good, you can't have my house, you need to build your own.

Here is a saying " If I find myself, they will appear" does that make sense to anyone?

I've heard "if you build it, they will come" but that's about a baseball field with ghosts for players...;) to me all of this sounds like different names for the same thing, finding meaning in a fortune cookie, or making up a story about a divine being nailed to wood. It will be as mystic as you want it to be, doesn't make you see the truth anymore than the atheist...

[anerlich]

If you don't undwerstand the discussion, I suggest you be quiet, maybe you will learn something.

It's not a discussion, it's you lecturing and patronising.

What WC1277 said

[YiQuanOne]

It's not a discussion, it's you lecturing and patronising.

What WC1277 said

So a discussion is just sharing back and forth about nothing, like....I have a big gym, ...I have a weight set, Ya...me too, Ha... I practiced all day today , Ya ....me too, bla..bla...bla...

I would not say that having those kind of talks is much benifit, sounds like trying to confirm that other people do what you do, just do that on facebook.

If you don't like the subject and have been able to have the experence of the person talking, just say I never experenced that!.

Maybe I was doing something different than you!

Why don't you say ,HA, maybe their is something I don't know!, and then try to find out why?, instead of just attacking people that you fail to comprehend.

If I make you feel, dumb!...SORRY...I am just getting info out, I don't try to make you feel like I am talking down to you.

Try not to take these threads personally.

[anerlich]

If I make you feel, dumb!

Pretty much the opposite, actually.

[Eric_H]

So a discussion is just sharing back and forth about nothing, like....I have a big gym, ...I have a weight set, Ya...me too, Ha... I practiced all day today , Ya ....me too, bla..bla...bla...



Actually YOU were the one who dug up this discussion with:



But if you have not taken the steps to reach that level you will not have a clue what he is trying to tell you.

I do have to say thou that he was very patient in breaking things down into pretty good detail, but a lot of stuff is at an advanced level that cannot be even comprehended until you acquire the basic internal core relationship.


You want to walk in here like a pompous a$$hat, by all means do so. But don't be surprised that you're getting flipped some sh!t.

Maybe instead of your "internal core relationship" you should try building ones with human beings instead. I'm sure your core is chafing by this point...

[YiQuanOne]

Actually YOU were the one who dug up this discussion with:



You want to walk in here like a pompous a$$hat, by all means do so. But don't be surprised that you're getting flipped some sh!t.

Maybe instead of your "internal core relationship" you should try building ones with human beings instead. I'm sure your core is chafing by this point...

I guess you can handle the truth, sorry ****hat.

[Eric_H]

I guess you can handle the truth, sorry ****hat.

The only truth evident here is you added nothing to the discussion and are a DBag. Good luck with that.