Are the Hurdle Stretch and Seated Quad Stretch Killing People?

[HumbleWCGuy]

I have used them for years and always taught them with no problems. I have only seen beginners with low levels of flexibility as even representing a potential for injury.

However, a number of athletic trainers are recommending against both. However, I have seen no research concerning a direct relationship between the performance of these stretches and injuries.

Again, I see the risk in very inflexible and out of shape beginners, but generally speaking, is this an old wives tale?

[donjitsu2]

I'm not 100% if you an I are thinking about the same exercises. BUT if you are talking about the same hurdler's stretch and seated quad stretch I'm familiar with then I'd avoid them.

Both are weak stretches at best and dangerous at worse.

- The Hurdler's Stretch - places unnecessary rotational type forces on the knee - particularly the MCL.

Besides, what is the point of the drill?

Are you trying to stretch your hamstrings? If so, there are much better alternatives like a simple seated hamstring stretch.

Are you trying to stretch your quads? If so, the hurdler's stretch does a pretty ****ty job from a biomechanical standpoint. Do a standing Quad Stretch instead.

Is the drill supposed to stretch the hip? Again, if so, the hurdler's stretch is a pretty ****ty choice. The kneeling hip flexor stretch is a much better alternative.

The Seated Quad Stretch is equally bad for the knees. It places stresses on the MCL similar to the Hurdler's Stretch and places undue strain on the patellar tendon.

I'm assuming people started doing the drill because they wanted a "really good stretch for their quads". But seriously how much flexibility does a person need in their quads? If you can point your knee to the ground and touch your heel to your butt, then that is more than enough flexibility in the muscle.

Train Hard,
Josh Skinner

[HumbleWCGuy]

Can you do the splits? I am starting to think that the real issue is just an overall poor committment to flexibility. People who I know who stretch see no problem. People who dabble have trouble. I suppose that if you half-a$$ed to anything. That's how you end up.

The hurdle stretch is preferred a lot because it allows people to stretch better and it allows one to fall back into the seated quad stretch readily. Heavy squats, running, and about anything you care to name places necessary stress on the body.

[David Jamieson]

I'm 46. 47 in a few months. I can do the front splits no problem.
Also, not adverse to stretching, however, I don't do long extended stretches anymore at all and stick with ballistic stretching.

For range of motion, I go to that range of motion quite simply, and repeat!

Do what feels right on your body. Know your limits and don't push yourself beyond the stupid mark. Push yourself up to it. :)

[Kevin73]

The hurdler stretch/seat quad stretch can put undue stress on the knees and connective tissues.

I had reconstructive surgery on my right knee and can do a standing quad stretch with no problems and do full squats while lifting. If I try to do either of those stretches I immediately feel it in my knee, so I avoid using those stretches.

It's one of the things about a human body. Just because it CAN do something, doesn't mean that it SHOULD do something. There are many things that while a person can do them, will cause problems later in life. Look at how many TKDers need hip replacements later in life due to kicking in a manner the body is not designed to move effectively and safely in.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Look at how many TKDers need hip replacements later in life due to kicking in a manner the body is not designed to move effectively and safely in.

I have never heard of a single case. I suppose that it happens.


I don't think that stay mediocre because of the risk is a good argument. Don't bench heavy, don't stretch hard, don't whatever because it will hurt later.

[Kevin73]

I have never heard of a single case. I suppose that it happens.


I don't think that stay mediocre because of the risk is a good argument. Don't bench heavy, don't stretch hard, don't whatever because it will hurt later.

Huh?

Did anyone say that? Your body is designed to push, so proper heavy benching won't hurt you. Stretching hard won't hurt you, it's just when you do stretches that put your body in unnatural groves of motion.

Read medical research on how the hips are supposed to move, the body is not designed to move in a high lateral position. Talk to a lot of TKDer's that have done it for a really long time and you will find a very high rate of knee and hip problems.

No one has ever said to stay mediocre. In fact, it has nothing to do with that. If you want to excell long term instead of being a flash in a pan because you ruined your body in your younger days than go ahead, I'd rather train properly and keep pushing it well into my twilight years.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Huh?

Did anyone say that? Your body is designed to push, so proper heavy benching won't hurt you. Stretching hard won't hurt you, it's just when you do stretches that put your body in unnatural groves of motion.

Read medical research on how the hips are supposed to move, the body is not designed to move in a high lateral position. Talk to a lot of TKDer's that have done it for a really long time and you will find a very high rate of knee and hip problems.

No one has ever said to stay mediocre. In fact, it has nothing to do with that. If you want to excell long term instead of being a flash in a pan because you ruined your body in your younger days than go ahead, I'd rather train properly and keep pushing it well into my twilight years.

I don't think that these stretches are killing people. I haven't seen any dead bodies, just stories about it being dangerous. However, I have seen ribs cracked, shoulders blown, and throats crushed on the bench press. I have never seen or heard of a severe stretching accident.

[Kevin73]

I don't think that these stretches are killing people. I haven't seen any dead bodies, just stories about it being dangerous. However, I have seen ribs cracked, shoulders blown, and throats crushed on the bench press. I have never seen or heard of a severe stretching accident.

I agree, "dead bodies" is a bit of an overstatement. But, I don't think it's too far off to say that the stretches can be bad for your knees.

I agree, everything has a risk when done improperly. Some things just have more of an inherent immediate risk when done wrong.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Unless you are a hurdler, what is the point of doing a "hurdler stretch"?

Specificity is not just something for strength training, but for all training.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Unless you are a hurdler, what is the point of doing a "hurdler stretch"?

Specificity is not just something for strength training, but for all training.

There is a lot more to stretching than side splits and front splits. If someone is seriously having trouble with the hurdle stretch, then they have some serious flexibility issues.

It's interesting that you brought up strength training. A man is not strong unless he has all around strength. Is a guy strong if he has leg press built thighs, a big bench, and a weak back? No. The same is true for stretching, great side splits, front splits coupled with poor hip flexibility is a recipe for disaster. In real fights nothing goes to plan. You can't count on your leg traveling in a defined range of motion 100%. Small tweaks to a person who hasn't stretched in all possible directions results in the hip surgeries above, not the stretches.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The behind -the neck-press has been shown over and over to be not only biomechanically dangerous but not even as good a shoulder/trap developer as the military or overhead press, yet some people still do it and swear by it.
A case of "getting good IN SPIT of and not because of" and a case of "just because we can, doesn't mean we should".
But hey, to each their own.

[HumbleWCGuy]

The behind -the neck-press has been shown over and over to be not only biomechanically dangerous but not even as good a shoulder/trap developer as the military or overhead press, yet some people still do it and swear by it.
A case of "getting good IN SPIT of and not because of" and a case of "just because we can, doesn't mean we should".
But hey, to each their own.

As I said, show me the dead bodies with the hurdlers. In the Case of behind the neck press, there are actually peer reviewed articles on the matter. I would like to see something peer reviewed. Do you have anything? I just did a quick and dirty Ebsco host search.

From what I am gathering the information on the hurdlers stretch and seated quad stretch are possibly stemming from unfounded remarks made in a text book. Common sense would dictate that people wish special issues such as stupidity, knee problem history could be at risk but I am not seeing anything peer reviewed on the matter.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As I said, show me the dead bodies with the hurdlers. In the Case of behind the neck press, there are actually peer reviewed articles on the matter.

Not sure about your fetish with dead bodies but I think you missed my point:
EVEN WITH the peer reviewed studies people swear by them and do them and some people get results and never have any issues.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Not sure about your fetish with dead bodies but I think you missed my point:
EVEN WITH the peer reviewed studies people swear by them and do them and some people get results and never have any issues.

I understand. I am not swearing by the hurdler's. I do like it because it is nice for larger students who quite frankly need the leg out of the way to make room for their gut. Also, I like to stretch the quads after the hamstrings. A lot of people don't like that stretch but. I think that stretching that quad is a huge deal from a leg power perspective and from an injury prevention perspective. I have seen sever K.O. that probably resulted in torn knees that could have been avoided with the seated quad stretch.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that certain stretches are bad because they CAN but undue stress on joints and tendons COMPARED to other stretches that well stretch the same area with far less risk.
That said, if it works for someone, great, if it doesn't, there are better options.
I don't think any stretch is BAD per say, unless it is done in a "bad way".

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I used to do hurdle stretch, but I feel it puts too much strain on the knee. I usually do butterfly, sitting hamstring, torso, instep, and sumo, than follow up with about 10 stiff leg kicks on each leg. I feel you can never emphasize stretching enough.

[wenshu]

The knees are the most vulnerable when stretching the lower body.

Especially while working towards side splits.

Stretching the illobiltal band can help alleviate pressure on the knee.
http://yogaheals.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/pigeoncomposite.jpg

The hips and by extension the knees are also particularly vulnerable when working side stretches.

http://www.masteringwushu.com/images/ceyatui.jpg
http://www.masteringwushu.com/images/chaotiandeng.jpg

My stretching routine for the lower body includes front splits and over splits, side splits, seated straddle pike, seated pike, ceyatui, zhengyatui, chaotiandeng, pigeon pose, butterfly, downward facing dog (for the lower back).

[HumbleWCGuy]

The knees are the most vulnerable when stretching the lower body.

Especially while working towards side splits.

Stretching the illobiltal band can help alleviate pressure on the knee.


The hips and by extension the knees are also particularly vulnerable when working side stretches.


My stretching routine for the lower body includes front splits and over splits, side splits, seated straddle pike, seated pike, ceyatui, zhengyatui, chaotiandeng, pigeon pose, butterfly, downward facing dog (for the lower back).

That's my thinking. A lot of times the people who have a lot of trouble with this just aren't putting in the time stretching. Nothing is 100% true or false, but generally speaking, if one is feeling tremendous pain with any particular stretch it has more to do with overall flexibility.

Showing some hip stretches was a good idea. I feel that as I have gotten older it has been far more important that I stretch my hips.

[taai gihk yahn]

as far as doing the hurdlers stretch, it depends on how much flexability you have on the opposite side hip external rotators and adductors - while I don't think you can blow out your knee by doing it, at the same time, you may not be able to effectively isolate HS before you engage other hip / pelvic musculature, and therefore the tightness of those muscles might impede your ability to get a clean HS stretch;

IMPO, if u r going to do a seated unilateral hamstring stretch, the most efficient is with the opposite leg tucked in
http://body-like-bruce.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/hamstring-stretch.jpg
the reason for this is that the "secret" to doing a HS stretch is to use anterior pelvic rotation to lengthen the HS by moving the proximal insertion (the ischial tuberosity / IT) away from the distal insertions (knee joint) before doing any sort of forward bend at the hips; the best way to get this inisitally is to simply sit up straight and arch the lower back; once you can do this with ease, only then should you start to flex the hips forwards, but doing so while maintaining the lumbar spine in neutral or slight extension; the big mistake people make is to bend forward by flexing lumbar spine, which causes the IT to actually approximate towards the knee joint;

so, while I don't think the hurdler's stretch is uniformly "bad" across the board, I prefer the other way, as when using the hurdler's stretch, you can't get the same degree of pelvic mobility around a tranverse axis; but that's just me...

[donjitsu2]

I don't think that these stretches are killing people. I haven't seen any dead bodies, just stories about it being dangerous. However, I have seen ribs cracked, shoulders blown, and throats crushed on the bench press. I have never seen or heard of a severe stretching accident.


Even if the stretch weren't potentially damaging to the knees I think you're still missing that the Hurdler's stretch http://body-like-bruce.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/hurdler-stretch.gif and the Seated Quad Stretch http://media.specialolympics.org/soi/files/sports/Football/eugvgzrq/Double_Q.jpg both suck - from a biomechanical stand point.

[HumbleWCGuy]

Even if the stretch weren't potentially damaging to the knees I think you're still missing that the Hurdler's stretchboth suck - from a biomechanical stand point.

There is no evidence for either. That's what you are missing.