Power Point Exploding

[Hendrik]

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1072874&postcount=524

What is Power Point Exploding?

Is that put one's entire body behind the punch or not?

Does your WCK training make you ready for Power Point Exploding?

Contracdict to some's believe ----> should the fighter miss the target, he won’t be off balance is a consideration in traditional WCK. what do you think?

[t_niehoff]

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1072874&postcount=524

What is Power Point Exploding?

Is that put one's entire body behind the punch or not?

Does your WCK training make you ready for Power Point Exploding?

Contracdict to some's believe ----> should the fighter miss the target, he won’t be off balance is a consideration in traditional WCK. what do you think?

You don't put your body BEHIND the punch, instead you hit WITH your body structure. There is a difference.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In fighting, there are three types of motion used to explode one’s power. First, there’s the “Body Mechanics Exploding” motion. This type of motion uses body mechanics to move and explode one’s power. These movements involve moving the body first before punching. The second type of motion is “Distance and Speed Exploding Power.” Here, speed times the distance a strike must travel equals the power generated through the strike. The third type of motion is, "Power Point Exploding.”. This involves using a technique such as the Straight Punch to hit a target. Here, the hand moves first, followed by the body.

Wing Chun favors “Power Point Exploding” techniques like the Straight Punch for three reasons. One, a straight line is the fastest way to hit a target. Two, the reaction time with this technique is very short because unlike western style punches, the Straight Punch is never chambered; i.e. the punching arm does not have to be fully bent to generate the power needed to strike effectively. Three, should the fighter miss the target, he won’t be off balance.

I like Gary, I like his stuff, but his comment on Western Boxing is just silly.
Boxing punches COME chambered because that is how they are trained, from a "guard position".
I've personally seen boxers KO guys from the following hand positions:
Relaxed at the sides
Cross armed
Pointing their finger
From holding the other guys shirt/collar

[Hendrik]

I like Gary, I like his stuff, but his comment on Western Boxing is just silly.
Boxing punches COME chambered because that is how they are trained, from a "guard position".
I've personally seen boxers KO guys from the following hand positions:
Relaxed at the sides
Cross armed
Pointing their finger
From holding the other guys shirt/collar


This thread is about not about his comment on western boxing isnt it?

[Hendrik]

You don't put your body BEHIND the punch, instead you hit WITH your body structure. There is a difference.

That still doesnt say anything but words.

Hit with your body structure is nonsense and BS. Structure is not a momentum. I cant believe this is from a person who claim to do fighting.

The bottom line is can you do Power point exploding? if yes how?

[YouKnowWho]

Contracdict to some's believe ----> should the fighter miss the target, he won’t be off balance is a consideration in traditional WCK. what do you think?

If your whole body function as one unit, when you miss the target, you may be off balance. If you attack with "disconnected" body, if you miss the target, you will not be off balance.

A good example is the "foot sweep". If you use your whole body rotation for your sweep, you may generate a lot of power but if you miss the target, you may throw yourself to the ground. If you don't use your whole body but only use your leg to sweep while your upper body remain static, if you miss the target, you will not unbalance yourself.

"connected" body movement -> generate the maximum power -> may unbalance if miss the target

"dis-connected" body movement -> generate less power -> may not unbalance if miss the target

It's a trade off issue and not a right or wrong issue IMO.

This is the difference between to apply a "solo" move vs. to apply a "combo". When you attack with "solo", you will give everything you got. If it doesn't work, you will use your "solo" move to set up your next move (combo). When you do that, you try to "dis-connect" your body parts and only use 30% of your commitment. This way it will be easier for you to borrow your opponent's resistence force and reverse you attacking direction.

[GlennR]

This thread is about not about his comment on western boxing isnt it?

Well dont refer to his article to begin with, and then choose what parts you feel should be commented on

Are you being selective again????

[shawchemical]

You don't put your body BEHIND the punch, instead you hit WITH your body structure. There is a difference.

only if you're a pedantic halfwit. IN fact, as your body structure doesn't actually come into contact with the target, you DON'T actually hit with it, but use the mass behind it to drive you punch into the man like a hammer hitting a nail.

[GlennR]

only if you're a pedantic halfwit. IN fact, as your body structure doesn't actually come into contact with the target, you DON'T actually hit with it, but use the mass behind it to drive you punch into the man like a hammer hitting a nail.

Actually id agree with T here.

If you throwing a WC punch (which will be at close range) theres the chance you'll collide with something on the way to the target (more than likely his arm). If you dont have structure all the way through the punch, and then collide with his arm, you risk the chance of him collapsing you structure and the arms collide.
And the flip side of that is, if you do have that collision (with structure) you then are in the position to control him
GlennR

[k gledhill]

http://kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1072874&postcount=524

What is Power Point Exploding?

Is that put one's entire body behind the punch or not?

Does your WCK training make you ready for Power Point Exploding?

Contracdict to some's believe ----> should the fighter miss the target, he won’t be off balance is a consideration in traditional WCK. what do you think?

Does your WCK training make you ready for Power Point Exploding? yes

infact one could say that the timing of 3 actions are to coincide and be this focus point of attacking entry, to us anyway. Dynamic body momentum, timed with the execution from chi-sao timing of ,for example pak da, and alignment/distances to make it all work....WITH body weight in motion and not leaning, swaying the axis line...not easy.:D

[Hendrik]

There are three types of power/momentum in the article.
We all might like to think we are doing Power Point Explosion but in the reality we might doing the first or second type.


So, how to know if one is doing type 1, 2, or 3?

[k gledhill]

the differences are that momentum is used in the first 2, the 3rd if you need to generate force from loss of momentum, ie inch ging, po-pai, to recover back to 1 & 2...if the body is in motion and the leading elbow is centered we harness the mass of the body behind it, open the elbows and we lose all the er, heavenly glory.;) we can always harness the body by centering the leading elbow behind the fist, ergo SLT....or why we spend so much time putting our elbows near to the center we use to define our spatial awareness of the system.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Again, it's about distance. What Gary talks about with power point exploding (moving the fist first and then the body) - is one way to strike at close range - the wing chun way. Not the only way to generate power at close range - but it's the wing chun way and it works.

FROM THAT RANGE.

Try that from a longer distance and you have nothing.

[Hendrik]

For me, it is all boils down to

P= momentum = mass * speed


So, since one's body weight is assume constant there are three cases

1, one speed up the body to get the momentum, and then thrust out via the arm/hand. Similar to Hung Gar or CLF or ect.... case in general.

2, One speed up and built up the momentum simultaneously while in the path toward the target. Similar to boxing case...etc

3, One do fast acceleration to generate the momentum and transfer to the point of contact at the request of the hand/contact point at the instant of need. similar to TCMA IMA or Yee Chuan...


So, actually the 3 or the power point explosion is extremely dependent on acceleration to reach the speed needed from 0 to X meter /s^2 or speed up with a very short distance. The key is the acceleration not the mass. Thus, it is not the solid structure or not the body weight or the body behind or the elbow.



Thus, if you look at the WCk's kuen kuit, it says Kuen Choong Sum Fatt or punch issue from heart. it uses issue not hit or crush or thrust or throw out like Hung Gar or ClF....etc


Thus, for me, if anyone is not aware of how one accelerate, then it says one is doing 1 or 2 and not 3. because 3 needs fast acceleration.

and this fast acceleration actually is accord to the name of WCK keng or jin or power. as it called Chuk Keng or Fast power or Fast Jin or high speed power. accelerate, speed up with a very short distance power.



Thus, I never buy those claim of putting entire body behind the strike or elbow behind....etc. those are nice but other art such as Hung Gar did that too. Hung GAr even have better horse power since Hung Gar's speciality is the waist and stance or yiu ma. WCK doesnt do that, because wCK is a fast accelerate art. and fast accelerate art needs a dynamic structure different then the Hung gar or CLF structure....

What i am interested in is How do you do fast acceleration?



So, my bottom line is if you cant tell me how you accelerate, you dont have it. and if you tell me it is your hip as in Shotokan karate or Hung Gar, then I said that is not acceleration that is a push to move the body then crash out via the hand. it is not at contact one suddently send out a pulse to the hand as the hand's request.


So, does this matter? yes, because with 1 and 2 one can be easily high jack or intercept, as for 3, intercept is difficult because it is already contact. and 3 is not limited to hand, practically any point of contact can use to issue the pulse. only then we talk real 1850 WCK. and look at today's world, just sorry to say that art is lost or has been greatly distorted.

Check it out and see what I say fit what is going on.


and due to the way high speed acceleration is needed Dynamic flow structure which is implemented by the six directional force vectors and snake engine is needed. Take a look, in Taiji they use the Taiji sphere and the string of pears concept to implement the 6 D F V and snake engine, The Yee Chuan using the six direction force and the micro body awareness...... the list can goes on, that just tell us how TCMA IMA has evolved in handling the momentum.

In conclusion, i have not said punch like Hung gar or CLF or Boxing cannot blow the heck out of one, I am said, they are different and using different type of momentum. and different art has a different power/momentum signature which fit their art.

Nothing good or bad but one needs to know what the world one is doing.


So, to make us all feel great, guess what, that wrist snap is the fast acceleration. and ofcouse this also lead to we are the decendent of the Fujian White Crane because that is the White Crane power generation type in the past 400 years of China which is call Inch power from the Joints or Chun Jin Chier Lik in mandarin --- it is the game of high speed acceleration. So to destroy solid structure one doesnt need the entire body behind it. in WCK, one needs only that fast acceleration which is WCK's speciality or uniqueness.

[Hendrik]

only if you're a pedantic halfwit. IN fact, as your body structure doesn't actually come into contact with the target, you DON'T actually hit with it, but use the mass behind it to drive you punch into the man like a hammer hitting a nail.


refer to my previous post, hammer and nail analogy is great however one still have to solve how could one accelerated the hammer issue. otherwise it becomes a Hammer pushing nail not hit the nail case.

So, how do one accelerate?

[YouKnowWho]

3, One do fast acceleration to generate the momentum and transfer to the point of contact at the request of the hand/contact point at the instant of need. similar to TCMA IMA or Yee Chuan...
Without "Peng Jin" which require full body structure/alignment, your "fast acceleration hand leads body" initial move can be easily interrupted.

Assuming your hand can touch your opponent's body without interruption is not realistic. The more realistic assumption is that your opponent will interrupt your initial attack and you will need to response to your opponent's interruption after that.

[Hendrik]

Actually id agree with T here.

If you throwing a WC punch (which will be at close range) theres the chance you'll collide with something on the way to the target (more than likely his arm). If you dont have structure all the way through the punch, and then collide with his arm, you risk the chance of him collapsing you structure and the arms collide.
And the flip side of that is, if you do have that collision (with structure) you then are in the position to control him
GlennR



this is more like case 1 and case 2, it takes long distance to get the momentum and if one is smaller or start after the opponents' action, tough luck one will never get up to that momentum but get crash away. This is refer as the external force way in the Chinese martial art terminology.

[Hendrik]

Without Peng Jin which require body structure, your "fast acceleration hand leads body" initial move can be easily interrupted.


instead of Peng Jin and body structure,

you need the ------- levitate or float with 6DFV and snake engine adaptive dynamic handling to do the job.


I dont even need Peng Jin to neutralize you, that is a waste of time, I love you to interrupted me because I will use your interrupt contact point to me as the path to issue jin into you.

As it says, Come accept , goes return, let go and thrust forward.

and the above Kuen kuit continuous on to this kuen kuit.

我常自在静，雷发丹田气，大开诱来攻，利我居主位， I am always in silence, waiting for you with my stored Qi in the Dan dien/ center, open up to seduce you to attack my opening, I am at the leading position ( always even I do nothing.)

[but without the fast accelerate jin, all the above kuen kuit became fantasy because one is not fast enough to get the power need to do the job.]


It is about fast acceleration.

Thus it says

静如秋月，动若飙风，彬彬克敌，分寸之中。 quiet as the autum's moon, move like a cyclone, gently subdue the enemy, within inches.

轻若鸿毛，重逾泰山，用中无形，体用一焉。 light as feather, heavy as the mountain, the application has not form, the Body and application is one. ( why? because it is all momentum and force balancing game. no form nothing static but flow)


1840, you grap me that is the point I use for power point explosion. That was WCK which we no longer see today. So dont tell me your WCK is the true WCK and need to go your way. By the ancestors standard where do we stand? FAR FAR away. sorry to say.




And thus a paradigm shift needs to take place when one practice one' SLT. the rooting or grounding way doesnt work and have never worked in real life.


PS. I better STFU now. hahaha

[YouKnowWho]

It is about fast acceleration.

- 会打快(Hui Da Kuai) skill defeat fast.
- 快打慢(Kuai Da Man) fast defeat slow.
- 慢打不会(Man Da Bu Hui) slow defeat no skill.

Skill is more important than fast acceleration. The problem is when we are talking about "skill", we have to talk about "opponent" and the discussion is no longer "solo".

[Hendrik]

- 会打快(Hui Da Kuai) skill defeat fast.
- 快打慢(Kuai Da Man) fast defeat slow.
- 慢打不会(Man Da Bu Hui) slow defeat no skill.

Skill is more important than fast acceleration. The problem is when we are talking about "skill", we have to talk about "opponent" and the discussion is no longer "solo".


you dont get it because you always think there is a physical, there is a move....etc. trap within the form.

What move?
意动神到 intention move the spirit is there, every point of the body is a power point waiting for explosion.

disregards how skilfull you are if you cant have the momentum handling, nothing works. and momentum handling can be from various source including borrow your enemy's. momentum is a reality of physical word and Momentum always equal to speed multiply mass.

you cant handle momentum you cant handle changes. and to handle momentum you always needs speed.

[GlennR]

this is more like case 1 and case 2, it takes long distance to get the momentum and if one is smaller or start after the opponents' action, tough luck one will never get up to that momentum but get crash away. This is refer as the external force way in the Chinese martial art terminology.

Wrong.
I can do that standing still, with no retraction of the arm, with guys much bigger than me.
If that outcome is to you "external"..... then im happy to be external

[YouKnowWho]

you dont get it because you always think there is a physical, there is a move....etc. trap within the form.

What move?
意动神到 intention move the spirit is there, every point of the body is a power point waiting for explosion.

You dont get my point because you always think about "solo" (yourself and not your opponent). When you do something, your opponent will react. You have to take your opponent's reaction into your consideration.

CMA skill is:

- 時間 good timing,
- 机会 recognize opportunity,
- 角度 correct angle,
- 力的使用 use force, and
- 平横 good balance,

The TCMA can not be discussed without referencing the word "opponet".

[Hendrik]

Wrong.
I can do that standing still, with no retraction of the arm, with guys much bigger than me.
If that outcome is to you "external"..... then im happy to be external


Prove to the law of Physics on how do you deal with momentum.

[Hendrik]

You dont get it either because you always think about "solo" (yourself and not your opponent). When you do something, your opponent will react. You have to take your opponent's reaction into your consideration.

CMA skill is:

- good timing,
- recognize opportunity,
- correct angle,
- use force, and
- good balance,

The TCMA can not be discussed without referencing the word "opponet".


Tell me why do I spend so much time analyze the momentum ?

[t_niehoff]

That still doesnt say anything but words.

Hit with your body structure is nonsense and BS. Structure is not a momentum. I cant believe this is from a person who claim to do fighting.

The bottom line is can you do Power point exploding? if yes how?

You do not "understand" because you can't do it.

I hit WITH my body using WCK body mechanics (or body structure -- dynamic structure is mechanics)

"Power point exploding" is meaningless. Whether "hand before body" or "body before hand," it doesn't matter. What matters is that they arrive as one.

[t_niehoff]

Tell me why do I spend so much time analyze the momentum ?

Because you are not doing it and so are lost in fantasy, in theory.

[GlennR]

Prove that to the law of Physics on how do you deal with momentum.

So are you saying you cant overcome size and momentum in your approach to WC?

[YouKnowWho]

Tell me why do I spend so much time analyze the momentum ?

I truly don't know. I think you should spend more time to analyze your opponent's response instead.

[Hendrik]

Because you are not doing it and so are lost in fantasy, in theory.



hahaha. I deal with momentum not theory.
how do you generate your momentum? you cant even answer it.
that's all your so called fighting expertise and body structure.

[Hendrik]

So are you saying you cant overcome size and momentum in your approach to WC?

Nope, I say one needs to know the way how to generate the momentum needed at the time needed. instead of fantasy.

Speed or mass what can you control?

[YouKnowWho]

Hit with your body structure is nonsense and BS.
Here is a clip to demonstrate how to use your body structure to hit your opponent. It's not nonsense and it's definitely not BS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSN6ifzbbUA

[Hendrik]

I truly don't know. I think you should spend more time to analyze your opponent's response instead.


Because momentum is the core of the opponents and my own response.

be able to predict and handling both my and my opponents momentum or the resultant momentum is the name of the game deep under all skill.

But Momentum is dependent on mass and speed so how do one control those?

[Hendrik]

Here is a clip to demonstrate how to use your body structure to hit your opponent. It's not nonsense and it's definitely not BS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSN6ifzbbUA



That is excellent!

the discussion here is which type of power generation and what is their characteristics describe via momentum.

[GlennR]

Nope, I say one needs to know the way how to generate the momentum needed at the time needed. instead of fantasy.

Speed or mass what can you control?

So youre saying you can do it but i cant?

[YouKnowWho]

But Momentum is dependent on mass and speed so how do one control those?

How to use your "momentum" to "run your opponent down" is by trainng and not by talking. Everything that I'm talking about here, I can back it up with a clip. I hope you can do the same for me as well.

In the following clip, after you have taken your opponent down, your body is still moving until you are far away from the crime scene. That's what I will call "how to control your momentum".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUbApmbM8Sk

[Hendrik]

How to use your "momentum" to "run your opponent down" is by trainng and not by talking. Everything that I'm talking about here, I can back it up with a clip. I hope you can do the same for me as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUbApmbM8Sk



The following is what I always have in mind on fighting since I was a young Kyokushin decades ago, that type of momentum is what I am talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ytHK1hLgb8

[GlennR]

The following is what I always have in mind on fighting since I was a young Kyokushin decades ago, that type of momentum is what I am talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ytHK1hLgb8

Hilarious.... you "have it in mind"

But can YOU do it??

[Hendrik]

You don't deal with anything but fantasy and theory.

You don't learn a skill by TRYING to analyze how you "generate your momentum"? That way of looking at things leads nowhere. But that is your problem -- you try to intellectualize what is essentially a non-intellectual process, and it can't be done. You are what we call a martial art nerd. You are like the guys who think that by using F=Ma you can figure out how to punch harder! LOL!



hahaha, you dont even know momentum control.

[t_niehoff]

Hilarious.... you "have it in mind"

But can YOU do it??

Of course he can't.

[YouKnowWho]

You don't learn a skill by TRYING to analyze how you "generate your momentum"?

Agree with you 100% there. To be able to "run your opponent down" is the highest level of the MA skill.

If your opponent:

- punches at you, you run him down.
- kicks at you, you run him down.
- does nothing, you still run him down.

This skill is not that easy to develop. First you should have no fear to close the distance. In order to do that, you will need to have good "grappling skill" to begin with.

[Hendrik]

Hilarious.... you "have it in mind"

But can YOU do it??


What do you think Kyokushin is train to do, stand there in sanchin stance and resist other to push?

[t_niehoff]

hahaha, you dont even know momentum control.

I don't know lots of nonsense. "Momentum control"! LOL! You and your silly ideas.

Hendrik, you are focused on the wrong things. You are focused on the wrong things because you do not know what the right things are. You can only learn those right things through doing it. By doing it, you see what you NEED. You have an image of what you believe WCK should be, but that image is fantasy, not reality.

[Hendrik]

I don't know lots of nonsense. "Momentum control"! LOL! You and your silly ideas.

Hendrik, you are focused on the wrong things. You are focused on the wrong things because you do not know what the right things are.

You can only learn those right things through doing it. By doing it, you see what you NEED.

You have an image of what you believe WCK should be, but that image is fantasy, not reality.



hahaha,

You dont know momentum, you dont know them, you cant control them, you cant predict them, you cant break them, you can borrow them, you cant make use of them.


Doesnt know Momentum handling is analogy to clueless on pick up speed, breaking distance, max connering angle, and neutral gear for a racer.

[Hendrik]

Of course he can't.

I know when to run based on the momentum others could produce,
and that is good enough.

Yes, I only know when to run.

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik,
this thread probably have the most informative info about your perspective than any other since I joined this forum, thanks for sharing!
But others on here will not appreciate it unless they have experienced directly. I see now that's it's not something mysterious, anyone can do it if they understand what's going on.

[GlennR]

What do you think Kyokushin is train to do, stand there in sanchin stance and resist other to push?

I actually know a couple of BB Kyokushin (that train hard and realistically unlike you) and im sure they do more than your childish sarcastic remark.

And so you are still "Kyokushin" are you??
You train daily do you like they do??
You spar regularly like they do??
What still makes you Kyokushin?


Basically you insult anyone that trains hard, puts in the work and does the sparring (regardles of style) with your mightier than thou "i know best" rantings

Kyokushin..... i think not

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,
this thread probably have the most informative info about your perspective than any other since I joined this forum, thanks for sharing!

But others on here will not appreciate it unless they have experienced directly. I see now that's it's not something mysterious, anyone can do it if they understand what's going on.

You are welcome.

It is all about momentum handling, there is nothing mysterious. however, one cannot using the mind to think what one has no experience.



See, Gary and I has no contact. When I post the hand followed by body question to YKW weeks ago YKW put up all kind of doubt. Well, I told him point blank he doesnt know IMA, which might sound rude, but it is telling the truth.

Also, some here alway BS about fighting and fighting,

Take a look, Gary is from WSL line, Dont tell me Gary doesnt fight and WSL doesnt fight to come up with the " hand followed by body" and "if one missed one doesnt lost balance" way.


I dont do sport fighting and I dont like to preach fighting fighting. That is because make believe fighting will lead one and attract one into fighting, and fighting is not a way out for most of us daily life ; but will screw us up in our life.

so why put all those make believe fighting in one's mind? will one win fight with one's boss? peer? spouse? neigbour? people in the street?
No, never, but add lots of stress. so why promote those negative stuffs and live a miserable life in the name of make believe warrior?

I sure dont fight, but similar to any responsible car driver, I test out the road handling, the gear, acceleration, breaking distance....etc. and share with others if one cant accelerate and doesnt have a clue on breaking distance dont race or dont even drive. That is because you will not be able to merge into high way with short ramp and avoid problem when the car cut in infront of you closely.

I am not Mohamat Ali or Mas Oyama or and top fighter out there. but, I know the basic, when I need to run like chicken, and when I can handle what is coming my way. It is always interested to learn more on road handling from anyone who knows more and experience and can tell one clearly what is what, but not those "My religion is the only religion" " the 5000 years culture of Chinese produce no result" type of people.

[LoneTiger108]

For me, it is all boils down to

P= momentum = mass * speed

Scientifically speaking this works.


Thus, if you look at the WCk's kuen kuit, it says Kuen Choong Sum Fatt or punch issue from heart. it uses issue not hit or crush or thrust or throw out like Hung Gar or ClF....etc

Actually, I would take the term as the old saying about 'having learnt something by heart'. Basically meaning your fistwork should be natural and ingrained in your mind and body.[/QUOTE]

And FWIW that relates directly to Hung Gar and CLF too.


and this fast acceleration actually is accord to the name of WCK keng or jin or power. as it called Chuk Keng or Fast power or Fast Jin or high speed power. accelerate, speed up with a very short distance power.

Agreed, chookging/chukkeng is a specific characteristic of WCK. Again, is that a Cantonese term because I write like it sounds (chookging)


Thus, I never buy those claim of putting entire body behind the strike or elbow behind....etc. those are nice but other art such as Hung Gar did that too. Hung GAr even have better horse power since Hung Gar's speciality is the waist and stance or yiu ma. WCK doesnt do that, because wCK is a fast accelerate art. and fast accelerate art needs a dynamic structure different then the Hung gar or CLF structure....

Sorry but that's just wrong to say WCK has no yiuma. Are you joking? Ask anyone who has experienced decent CK training or any Kulo teachings. Yiuma is everywhere in WCK. Its actually one of the saapyeesik isn't it?


What i am interested in is How do you do fast acceleration?

I think I mentioned on your other thread about choonging (inch power), and in some ways that is helped by an understanding of chookging too. What will really affect your mind is if you understand all this you will know that the 'natural' reflex reaction to being shocked is called gengging and if you can harness this energy, then all the gings are at your disposal imho.

All of this is present in good looksau training and it's why we use sand bags and the wooden man to prep the postures we require to launch thsi sort of short range explosive power. But I would argue that this isn't the only power I learnt or use.

[Hendrik]

Thus, I never buy those claim of putting entire body behind the strike or elbow behind....etc. those are nice but other art such as Hung Gar did that too. Hung GAr even have better horse power since Hung Gar's speciality is the waist and stance or yiu ma. WCK doesnt do that, because wCK is a fast accelerate art. and fast accelerate art needs a dynamic structure different then the Hung gar or CLF structure....--- HS



Sorry but that's just wrong to say WCK has no yiuma. Are you joking? Ask anyone who has experienced decent CK training or any Kulo teachings. Yiuma is everywhere in WCK.



Will I insult you if I ask you to re read my post understand what i said before posting the above?

[sanjuro_ronin]

This thread is about not about his comment on western boxing isnt it?

You sure about that?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Prove to the law of Physics on how do you deal with momentum.

The laws of physics have to be applied to biomechanics.

[Hendrik]

The laws of physics have to be applied to biomechanics.

nothing wrong with that

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lets look at the momentum equation on physics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum

In classical mechanics, momentum (pl. momenta; SI unit kg·m/s, or, equivalently, N·s) is the product of the mass and velocity of an object (p = mv). In relativistic mechanics, this quantity is multiplied by the Lorentz factor. Momentum is sometimes referred to as linear momentum to distinguish it from the related subject of angular momentum. Linear momentum is a vector quantity, since it has a direction as well as a magnitude. Angular momentum is a pseudovector quantity because it gains an additional sign flip under an improper rotation. The total momentum of any group of objects remains the same unless outside forces act on the objects (law of conservation of momentum).

Momentum is a conserved quantity, meaning that the total momentum of any closed system (one not affected by external forces) cannot change. Although originally expressed in Newton's Second Law, it also holds in special relativity, and with appropriate definitions a (generalized) momentum conservation law holds in electrodynamics, quantum mechanics, quantum field theory, and general relativity.



That is all well and dandy, but i t gives as only a part of the picture.

See momentum when talking about a bullet out of a gun is one thing, when talking about a sledge hammer striking your chest, another, when talking about 20lbs of feathers, another and when talking about 20lbs of bricks, yet another.

Any physical law or property must be applied within the context of what is being done, in the case of ANY MA, we need to apply it on HOW and WHY the body works and WHAT is being done.

Speaking of impulse, momentum, force and all that is great and pretty much irrelevant unless it is within the context of MA.

[Hendrik]

part of the picture is better then no picture, and that small part of the picture is edequate to tell the different between is it or is it not the type or power point explosion type.

so,
can you do type 3 or power point explosion type of power or momentum generation with your body?

if you can then describe how you do it and how you related to momentun.

if not then there are WCners such as Gary Lam who knows how to do it and that is the reality.


I have described mine in the previous posts so it is your turn if you have something to tell on the power point explosion; instead of take a post like a judge who knows everything in fact you dont but just want to always give your five cents.


Similar to that Terence who claim he is the invincible fighter but cant even differentiate between A Body structure and a Momentum. Hey Terence, P = mass * speed. NO matter how you twist you words, hahaha, Body structure, got no speed. Thus, NOT a momentum. :D






Lets look at the momentum equation on physics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum

In classical mechanics, momentum (pl. momenta; SI unit kg·m/s, or, equivalently, N·s) is the product of the mass and velocity of an object (p = mv). In relativistic mechanics, this quantity is multiplied by the Lorentz factor. Momentum is sometimes referred to as linear momentum to distinguish it from the related subject of angular momentum. Linear momentum is a vector quantity, since it has a direction as well as a magnitude. Angular momentum is a pseudovector quantity because it gains an additional sign flip under an improper rotation. The total momentum of any group of objects remains the same unless outside forces act on the objects (law of conservation of momentum).

Momentum is a conserved quantity, meaning that the total momentum of any closed system (one not affected by external forces) cannot change. Although originally expressed in Newton's Second Law, it also holds in special relativity, and with appropriate definitions a (generalized) momentum conservation law holds in electrodynamics, quantum mechanics, quantum field theory, and general relativity.



That is all well and dandy, but i t gives as only a part of the picture.

See momentum when talking about a bullet out of a gun is one thing, when talking about a sledge hammer striking your chest, another, when talking about 20lbs of feathers, another and when talking about 20lbs of bricks, yet another.

Any physical law or property must be applied within the context of what is being done, in the case of ANY MA, we need to apply it on HOW and WHY the body works and WHAT is being done.

Speaking of impulse, momentum, force and all that is great and pretty much irrelevant unless it is within the context of MA.

[CFT]

Not in fighting but just in wallbag practice I have tried:

1) Body before hand
Sink into stance (spring compression) before palm/punching wallbag.

2) Hand before body
Just palm or punch without prior sinking in stance and feel the reaction force in the heel/ball/foot (whatever).

Just some personal observations. Not talking about application. Might even be doing it "wrong".

[sanjuro_ronin]

The article:
In fighting, there are three types of motion used to explode one’s power. First, there’s the “Body Mechanics Exploding” motion. This type of motion uses body mechanics to move and explode one’s power. These movements involve moving the body first before punching. The second type of motion is “Distance and Speed Exploding Power.” Here, speed times the distance a strike must travel equals the power generated through the strike. The third type of motion is, "Power Point Exploding.”. This involves using a technique such as the Straight Punch to hit a target. Here, the hand moves first, followed by the body.

My view:

First, there’s the “Body Mechanics Exploding” motion. This type of motion uses body mechanics to move and explode one’s power. These movements involve moving the body first before punching.
EVERYTHING we do is biomechanical, whether the body moves first, last at the same time, the moment the body is involved in moving, the movement is biomechanical.


The second type of motion is “Distance and Speed Exploding Power.” Here, speed times the distance a strike must travel equals the power generated through the strike.

This is consistent in ANY type of strike because "distance, and speed" are factors that are pertinent to every strike.


The third type of motion is, "Power Point Exploding.”. This involves using a technique such as the Straight Punch to hit a target. Here, the hand moves first, followed by the body.

In all honestly, the hand being far less "heavy" will always move first in any strike, even when one is trying their best to move the body first, in a practical example you will ( more often than not) see the hand move first.
The exception being for a kick since the body MUST mover first to shift weight so that the foot CAN move from A to B.

Now, you ask me which method I prefer personally?
My answer is that ALL are interconnected.

[Hendrik]

Not in fighting but just in wallbag practice I have tried:

1) Body before hand
Sink into stance (spring compression) before palm/punching wallbag.

2) Hand before body
Just palm or punch without prior sinking in stance and feel the reaction force in the heel/ball/foot (whatever).

Just some personal observations. Not talking about application. Might even be doing it "wrong".


Excellent.

IMHO, we all need to go through all these experiment.


For me, Body before hand ---> spearing where one push out the spear , hand before body ----> shot out an arrow from the cross bow where hand is the triggle.

[YungChun]

In all honestly, the hand being far less "heavy" will always move first in any strike, even when one is trying their best to move the body first, in a practical example you will ( more often than not) see the hand move first.
The exception being for a kick since the body MUST mover first to shift weight so that the foot CAN move from A to B.

Now, you ask me which method I prefer personally?
My answer is that ALL are interconnected.

The hand may begin some motion but the body should be moving substantially by the time the punch is fired, enough to overcome inertia...

I am not sure based on biomechanics what the advantage or logic would be in moving the hand first, meaning actually beginning the fire before body power is applied.. The VT punch Kuit tells us the body is the hammer.. To me in practice the timing of both is very close and the momentum of both may well cease very close together in time but the body IMO must overcome inertia before the punch should fire, as the power starts from the horse and moves upward through the joints/bones to the arm..

[sanjuro_ronin]

The hand may begin some motion but the body should be moving substantially by the time the punch is fired, enough to overcome inertia...

I am not sure based on biomechanics what the advantage or logic would be in moving the hand first, meaning actually beginning the fire before body power is applied.. The VT punch Kuit tells us the body is the hammer.. To me in practice the timing of both is very close and the momentum of both may well cease very close together in time but the body IMO must overcome inertia before the punch should fire, as the power starts from the horse and moves upward through the joints/bones to the arm..

Good observations.
It has been my experience that, when the body moves first, you telegraph more.
It has also been my experience that HOW a strike lands is far more crucial than how it starts, know what I mean?

[CFT]

Excellent.

IMHO, we all need to go through all these experiment.


For me, Body before hand ---> spearing where one push out the spear , hand before body ----> shot out an arrow from the cross bow where hand is the triggle.Then I don't see where the power is coming from in hand before body. What is equivalent to the bow? I think you only have acceleration of the fist via the arm muscles.

EDIT: actually that's not quite right. Legs flex/extend as hand fires. Just no overt "pre-compression" of the legs. Which may be OK if you are already "sitting" in your stance.

[YungChun]

Good observations.
It has been my experience that, when the body moves first, you telegraph more.
It has also been my experience that HOW a strike lands is far more crucial than how it starts, know what I mean?

Well for the VT mechanics the time of fire or time of power generation is very short, because it is a short strike, assuming we are using the short power..

So, in this case the timing differential between body begin fire to punch landing is extremely small... Some other differences in that we are in contact, making the opening not reacting to them, etc..and so we have the body activation in time with other offensive tools that are opening a line in timing with the body, etc..

How it lands you said.. Well not 100% sure what you mean but in order to have full power release, the body power must be manifested not almost, but being manifested by the time the punch is firing..

But even in the case of long power as in the Reverse Punch the body must move first to take up the distance....

The only exception might be in the case of a whipping type punch where body twisting more at after the punch is going, might be correct.

[LoneTiger108]

Will I insult you if I ask you to re read my post understand what i said before posting the above?

Will I insult you if I say 'read what you wrote again?' Because you clearly stated, in reference to yiuma that WCK "doesn't do that".


Hung GAr even have better horse power since Hung Gar's speciality is the waist and stance or yiu ma. WCK doesnt do that because wCK is a fast accelerate art.

[Hendrik]

Then I don't see where the power is coming from in hand before body. What is equivalent to the bow? I think you only have acceleration of the fist via the arm muscles.

EDIT: actually that's not quite right. Legs flex/extend as hand fires. Just no overt "pre-compression" of the legs. Which may be OK if you are already "sitting" in your stance.


many ways to do it, thus in TCMA IMA there are different types of jin and their process.

IMHO, the key is in how to get the acceleration. thus it is a parallel turbo rather then the ordinary simple linear momentum generation of streching and punch out with entire body.

This Hino Akira clips of comparision the two punches are a good one, the typical karate punch is type 1, 2 the Hino punch is definite type 3 power otherwise he cant do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZMQWGPJwM4&feature=player_embedded

[Hendrik]

Will I insult you if I say 'read what you wrote again?' Because you clearly stated, in reference to yiuma that WCK "doesn't do that".



read the whole thing



Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
Thus, I never buy those claim of putting entire body behind the strike or elbow behind....etc. those are nice but other art such as Hung Gar did that too. Hung GAr even have better horse power since Hung Gar's speciality is the waist and stance or yiu ma. WCK doesnt do that, because wCK is a fast accelerate art. and fast accelerate art needs a dynamic structure different then the Hung gar or CLF structure....

[YungChun]

many ways to do it, thus in TCMA IMA there are different types of jin and their process.

IMHO, the key is in how to get the acceleration. thus it is a parallel turbo rather then the ordinary simple linear momentum generation of streching and punch out with entire body.

This Hino Akira clips of comparision the two punches are a good one, the typical karate punch is type 1, 2 the Hino punch is definite type 3 power otherwise he cant do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZMQWGPJwM4&feature=player_embedded

You're kidding right?

This is a case of break "the bottom brick"?

IMO the guy jumping backward and nearly killed with Chi is playing along.. No visible (special) biomechanics in play here, this guy might as well be demoing no touch chi knock outs..

[Hendrik]

You're kidding right?

This is a case of break "the bottom brick"?

IMO the guy jumping backward and nearly killed with Chi is playing along.. No visible (special) biomechanics in play here, this guy might as well be demoing no touch chi knock outs..



No I am not kidding. I am 100000% serious.


IMHO,

So, When seeing a demo or a real deal or a fake deal....doesnt matter. those are one's bias. it is like "oh, you are kidding there is no way for you to take me down, I have the strongest YJKYM in the world." Cut those stuffs but



one ask oneself.

1st question is can we do what he do?

2nd question is how does he generate the momentum?

3rd question is what is the process and how much power/momentum can he generate out of it? ....






Now, for Hino case, I dont want to take a well target punch from him even if I have protection gear on.
Those people in boxer rebellion has also said the western bullets is BS. Well, too bad.
one wants to fight? one dont take chance. one sees it is as what it is. and one dont want surprise. That is the reason I go with momentum analysis.

BTW. Qi got nothing wrong. and IMA got nothing wrong. now I pull the IMA into the realm of momentum. so can one do it? generate or handle those type of momentum? that is the reality.

[YungChun]

No I am not kidding. I am 100000% serious.


IMHO,

So, When seeing a demo or a real deal or a fake deal....doesnt matter. those are one's bias. it is like "oh, you are kidding there is no way for you to take me down, I have the strongest YJKYM in the world." Cut those stuffs but


So you are comparing your last guy goes flying from chi example with a grappler's take-down or the reality of bullets? :eek:

Sorry, but I don't accept this "example" as real.. Therefore the discussion of this example or of Santa Clause's flying sled mechanics are not relevant to any serious reality based discussion.. IMHO.. :)

[Hendrik]

So you are comparing your last guy goes flying example with a take-down? Sorry but I don't accept this "example" as real.. Therefore the discussion of this example or an example of Santa Clause's flying sled mechanics are relevant to any serious discussion.. IMHO.. :)

I dont even care.

I just want to see if my body can simulate what he is doing.
If I cant I shut up. if I can then I know.

Who care if I accept this or that. it is even better one's opponent dont accept everything such as weeks ago YKW doesnt accept my hand followed by body facts. that give one a sure shot way to take him down.

The issue is can we do it? be it demo or fake whatever. it is real because Gary said it and it is BS and nonsense when I said it weeks ago? honestly, I dont care. can one emulate it with one's own body and have the handle of all momentum? that is the key.

[YungChun]

I dont even care.

I just want to see if my body can simulate what he is doing.
If I cant I shut up. if I can then I know.

Who care if I accept this or that. it is even better one's opponent dont accept everything such as weeks ago YKW doesnt accept my hand followed by body facts. that give one a sure shot way to take him down.

The issue is can we do it? be it demo or fake whatever. it the reality real because Gary said it and it is BS and nonsense when I said it weeks ago?

You could try to replicate Superman's ability to fly off a tall building.. If you think you can then you know your crazy, if you can't then you become modern art work on the ground below..:cool::rolleyes::eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

You could try to replicate Superman's ability to fly off a tall building.. If you think you can then you know your crazy, if you can't then you become modern art work on the ground below..

The fact that a clearly fake video was posted as evidence, should say something.

[Hendrik]

You could try to replicate Superman's ability to fly off a tall building.. If you think you can then you know your crazy, if you can't then you become modern art work on the ground below..


Sure, no one said everything work out.
but if one doesnt test it one will never know.

it is always easy for us to trash others similar to how those people trashing Ipad but what is the reality? and can those people do it?


Back to Hino, what he did is not that far off. and the momentum transfer is reasonable. his power might not be able to penetrate 2 feet of protection gear, but 4 inch of guard will not be able to protect from the momentum.

[Hendrik]

The fact that a clearly fake video was posted as evidence, should say something.



you are an interesting guy. you like to doubt everything even including the momentum analysis. but you cant even postulate what happen to the type 1, 2, 3 of action with a physics momentum model. that said lots of things isnt it?


so is momentum analysis important?

Sure,

one use it to fine tune one's reverse turning kick to know when to extend the leg and when to keep the leg close to the body for to accelerate spin and generate momentum.

Not to mention, one can use the type 3 on round horse kick ....etc.

[YungChun]

you are an interesting guy. you like to doubt everything even including the momentum analysis. but you cant even postulate what happen to the type 1, 2, 3 of action with a momentum model. that said lots of things.


so is momentum analysis important?

Sure,

one use it to fine tune one's reverse turning kick to know when to extend the leg and when to keep the leg close to the body for to accelerate spin and generate momentum.

Not to mention, one can use the type 3 on round horse kick ....etc.

Many can barely understand what you're talking about..

Now... Here's the real deal... ;-)

Discuss..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPWh24YQ1go

[Hendrik]

Many can barely understand what you're talking about..

Now... Here's the real deal... ;-)

Discuss..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPWh24YQ1go



hahaha, go off topic again, can one focus on momentum?

that is physics or momentum, the wisdom of the west which always use to putting down TCMA IMA, and now one doesnt even dare to find out the truth ?



Back to the topic, have you exprience type 3 or power point explosion? can you do it? how? and how do you get the momentum?

[GlennR]

Back to the topic, have you exprience type 3 or power point explosion? can you do it? how? and how do you get the momentum?[/QUOTE]

Youre only really waiting for 2 answers.....
a) One you like and will applaud
b) One you dont like and will ridicule with sarcasm and condasceding tones

[YouKnowWho]

Can you apply "leg moves first, followed by the body" in roundhouse kick?

I believe "hand moves first, followed by the body" is a none commited move. Since it's a none commited move, it can be anything. Trying to compare a none commited move to a commited "body push/pull limbs" Fajin may be just like to compare orange and apple.

[Hendrik]

Can you apply "leg moves first, followed by the body" in roundhouse kick?


Sure.




I believe "hand moves first, followed by the body" is a none commited move.

Since it's a none commited move, it can be anything.

Trying to compare a none commited move to a commited "body push/pull limbs" Fajin may be just like to compare orange and apple.


yes, those are different stuffs. type 1 and 2 are commited for sure.

[YouKnowWho]

Sure.

The "leg leads body" may only apply to the Karate roundhouse kick.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.physical-arts.com/training/techniques/images/im_roundhouse_kick_right.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.physical-arts.com/training/techniques/mn_roundhouse_kick_right.html&h=200&w=610&sz=16&tbnid=LwqyeHH-3jUzuM:&tbnh=45&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3Droundhouse%2Bkick&zoom=1&q=roundhouse+kick&usg=__jYAXvDo49mluvBWxjoCidGDUDjw=&sa=X&ei=KYU3TdTfAYqRgQesmfShCA&ved=0CC4Q9QEwAQ

It won't apply to the MT roundhouse kick. The MT roundhose kick is clearly "body leads leg".

http://www.flashmavi.com/muaythai_spinning_roundhouse_kick.shtml

There is big difference between these 2 different power generation methods.

[Hendrik]

The "leg leads body" may only apply to the Karate roundhouse kick.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.physical-arts.com/training/techniques/images/im_roundhouse_kick_right.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.physical-arts.com/training/techniques/mn_roundhouse_kick_right.html&h=200&w=610&sz=16&tbnid=LwqyeHH-3jUzuM:&tbnh=45&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3Droundhouse%2Bkick&zoom=1&q=roundhouse+kick&usg=__jYAXvDo49mluvBWxjoCidGDUDjw=&sa=X&ei=KYU3TdTfAYqRgQesmfShCA&ved=0CC4Q9QEwAQ

It won't apply to the MT roundhouse kick. The MT roundhose kick is clearly "body leads leg".

http://www.flashmavi.com/muaythai_spinning_roundhouse_kick.shtml

There is big difference between these 2 different power generation methods.


1, there is a different between round horse kick and spinning round horse kick

2, in real life kick are dynamic one doesnt need to follow rules to 100%

3, applying leg followed by body is just a small adjustment for different purpose, most people dont even be able to see that if it is not tell. it will look like ordinary roundhorse kick at the execution point.

4, unless one is a kicker. speculation just confuse one.

[Yoshiyahu]

You don't put your body BEHIND the punch, instead you hit WITH your body structure. There is a difference.

Can you define the distinction between the two?

[Yoshiyahu]

This video is for you - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHnL7wqtQLs

Here is perfect video dealing with putting your body behind a punch.

Now take into account WC body mechanics are different and shorter. They are made to fight closer and use more speed than power of a boxer.

But if your interested in training to add this sorta of power to your WC you have to mix it up with boxing body mechanics. In other words you have to switch from one form of fighting to another.

But its cool to understand the philopshy behind why this techniques works. I don't think the guy who is doing the punches has the knowledge you have. But he has the experience from fighting and the conditioning from building up the power from

-push ups
-weight lifting
-hitting a punching bag

An what ever else I didnt mention.

Instead of telling us about this theory and that theory why not talk about how one develops it. Dont go mystical. Simply speak about the training that it takes phyiscal training that is to develop power like...

In your Mythical Chi video of the japanese guy making his energy pass through three guys. Whats the purpose of that skill? Why would you use that in a fight? Also how do you train to develop it? Dont say its chi. Because chi has to be trained by chi kung,strechting, hitting objects hard. To be able to manifest chi you must do both Soft or Yin exercises as well as Hard or Yang exercises. If you simply practice forms in the air with no Yang your chi wont be strong. If all you is stretch an never punch or kick anything than you will be flexible but will lack power(chi) to actually allow the chi to flow through your meridans to distrupt your opponents meridens and damage his chi flow.

A guy who can punch a 200lbs and make it move has more chi in punching that a guy who only does SIL LIM TAO

Oh by the way the guys doing Muay Thai delievering the knock outs. I betcha your long winded discussion on momemtum would go way over his head. He would have no idea what you mean! nor do i...reason being because it doesn't tell me how to develop it. I dont really care about how chi has the ability to knock someone out. Show me how to develop it properply and teach me how to apply against someone fighting me back.

[t_niehoff]

Can you define the distinction between the two?

No -- that is my point, you can't verbally explain these things or how to do them. But you can FEEL the difference. And you can be taught how to do it (if your instructor has the skill himself).

[Hendrik]

No -- that is my point, you can't verbally explain these things or how to do them. But you can FEEL the difference. And you can be taught how to do it (if your instructor has the skill himself).


That is totally NONSENSE and BS. I cant believe this come from a person who claim to know fighting and Qi is not scientific....etc. Now, looking at it. That is just totally double standard and NONSENSE.


Yes, one can verbally explain these things including giving a PROCESS to develop the skill.

One simply cant develop something one's mind is not clear.

And one cannot become a master of the field if one doesnt know different type of momentum generation and be able to do it, such as the type 1, 2, and 3.


Again, body and body structure is NOT momentum. Momentum has to have a Speed or accelation comes with it. So that show how Terence's level of scientific is ; it is far from the standard / level of TCMA IMA or Internal art; even though Terence keep pushing Internal art is NONSENSE and nonscientific. He just simply doesnt know.


NO matter how is the body or body structure. if one cant tell you how the heck s/he get the speed or acceleration. He is BSing and doesnt know what he is doing. if one cant control this speed or acceleration of the momentum generation, then one cant fight well.

So the question is will Mike Tyson or any very rare nature figther have to know about momentum as in Physics? they doesnt have to know.

But, Look at their clips, they knows how to handle the speed and acceleration naturally. and Momentum analysis is very good to see what they NATURALLY can do and we could learn from them on their way of doing it.

However, Terence is not a Nature and not Mike Tyson class? Why because he is doing WCK which means it is not a Nature Skill, but a learning Skill. and it is a problem if one who claim to have the skill but cannot clearly know what is the core elements and the process clearly.

So, dont tell me those BS fighting fighting when one cant even have a precise handling on momentum generation.


hahaha, see, I can acting to put on a hat and behave like Terence using Critical thinking too. hahaha. :D

[t_niehoff]

That is totally NONSENSE and BS. I cant believe this come from a person who claim to know fighting and Qi is not scientific....etc. Now, looking at it. That is just totally double standard and NONSENSE.


No double standard and it is not nonsense.



Yes, one can verbally explain these things including giving a PROCESS to develop the skill.

One simply cant develop something one's mind is not clear.


No, you can't. THAT is what you want to believe -- you want to believe that you intellectually "understand" it and so can tell others how to do it. But you don't.

You can give someone instructions for practice, but it is through their own practice that they learn -- find out how to do it themselves. The instruction is only a finger pointing to the moon.



And one cannot become a master of the field if one doesnt know different type of momentum generation and be able to do it, such as the type 1, 2, and 3.


How do you know what it takes to be a "master"? LOL! All that is nonsense.



Again, body and body structure is NOT momentum. Momentum has to have a Speed or accelation comes with it. So that show how Terence's level of scientific is ; it is far from the standard / level of TCMA IMA or Internal art; even though Terence keep pushing Internal art is NONSENSE and nonscientific. He just simply doesnt know.


The "standard" for TCMA IMA is bullsh1t. That is why there are not TCMA IMA people who can fight their way out of a wet paper bag. That is why you can't name ONE -- ONE mind you -- person who has any significant fighting skills using IMA. IMA was created by the nonfighting gentry who, like you, were trying to explain what they did not and could not do.



NO matter how is the body or body structure. if one cant tell you how the heck s/he get the speed or acceleration. He is BSing and doesnt know what he is doing. if one cant control this speed or acceleration of the momentum generation, then one cant fight well.

So the question is will Mike Tyson or any very rare nature figther have to know about momentum as in Physics? they doesnt have to know.

But, Look at their clips, they knows how to handle the speed and acceleration naturally. and Momentum analysis is very good to see what they NATURALLY can do and we could learn from them on their way of doing it.

However, Terence is not a Nature and not Mike Tyson class? Why because he is doing WCK which means it is not a Nature Skill, but a learning Skill. and it is a problem if one who claim to have the skill but cannot clearly know what is the core elements and the process clearly.

So, dont tell me those BS fighting fighting when one cant even have a precise handling on momentum generation.

hahaha, see, I can acting to put on a hat and behave like Terence using Critical thinking too. hahaha. :D

You wouldn't know what critical thinking was if it bit you in the ass. All you are describing is Hendrik's magical fantasy fu.

Take your magical fantasy fu into a MMA gym, and after they spank you, tell them about your three different types of momentum.;)

[Hendrik]

1, disregard of how you words it since you are the expert of wording and wording only. you still doesnt have the speed part of the momentum. Thus, lips service doesnt do any good to against law of physics.


2, all these using MMA gym as your seal BS nonsense.

hey a gym is gym. that is not even good enough compare with going to the Zoo. and Zoo is not even good enough to go to the jungle to test out with the survival animal or in the street of un law region. That is real fighting, get it?



So,
a, you cant do it by the law of physics.
b, even Gym is far far away with Amazon survival. not to mention mma gym got nothing to do to you and are you discussing WCK here ?


Those are how much your words worth in the reality.



BTW.

dont give me the following Zen type of finger pointing to the moon BS for your convernient. you dont even know what is a moon and a finger.

and it the reality is a technology as in Internal martial art technology is like driving a car, everyone can drive a car without need to think and doesnt have to find out how to do it themselves. with the technology it is only a matter on some can drive better then others but EVERY CAN DRIVE without need to find out HOW.






You can give someone instructions for practice, but it is through their own practice that they learn -- find out how to do it themselves. The instruction is only a finger pointing to the moon.

[Hendrik]

Ok, Today is my egoistic and love to have fun day.


How many of you would seriously like me to guide and lead you to experience the key points the momentum of type 1, 2, 3? so you know what is what when it comes to momentum generation. I would NOT show you how to fight or applied to hurt others because that is against my vow of compassionate as a buddhist.

But I can lead you to physically know and experience what it is. after that you will be clear as you are driving a car. it is pure TCMA IMA stuffs no magic but all common sense.


My only request is please dont use the car to hurt others. if you give me your promise, I do it today.

[Hendrik]

Thanks for your Tyson clip, like a few Nature, he is a nature. and all the explanation on momentum is for the people like myself who is NOT a nature to learn how a Nature does things which I cant and dont know how to do it naturally.

Notice I dont talk Qi in this thread, I bring up momentum.

Also, I dont talk fighting or how to use it in fighting because I dont like fighting,
but I love to discuss the phenomenon of momentum.

it is like we can discuss what is the power of neuclear but dont have to link it to war.




[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1073559]This video is for you - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHnL7wqtQLs

Here is perfect video dealing with putting your body behind a punch.

Now take into account WC body mechanics are different and shorter. They are made to fight closer and use more speed than power of a boxer.

[GlennR]

Also, I dont talk fighting or how to use it in fighting because I dont like fighting,
but I love to discuss the phenomenon of momentum.

it is like we can discuss what is the power of neuclear but dont have to link it to war.


Im sure youll find some friends.... http://www.physicsforums.com/

[GlennR]

Thanks for your Tyson clip, like a few Nature, he is a nature. and all the explanation on momentum is for the people like myself who is NOT a nature to learn how a Nature does things which I cant and dont know how to do it naturally.

If your mean "natural", no, you are wrong

Yes, Tyson had physical attributes that certainly helped get him to where he got, but it was his technique, discipline and training that put it all together

I guess you think he hard hard because he is strong?

[QUOTE]

If your mean "natural", no, you are wrong

Yes, Tyson had physical attributes that certainly helped get him to where he got, but it was his technique, discipline and training that put it all together

I guess you think he hard hard because he is strong?

[sanjuro_ronin]

This video is for you - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHnL7wqtQLs

Here is perfect video dealing with putting your body behind a punch.

Now take into account WC body mechanics are different and shorter. They are made to fight closer and use more speed than power of a boxer.

But if your interested in training to add this sorta of power to your WC you have to mix it up with boxing body mechanics. In other words you have to switch from one form of fighting to another.

But its cool to understand the philopshy behind why this techniques works. I don't think the guy who is doing the punches has the knowledge you have. But he has the experience from fighting and the conditioning from building up the power from

-push ups
-weight lifting
-hitting a punching bag

An what ever else I didnt mention.

Instead of telling us about this theory and that theory why not talk about how one develops it. Dont go mystical. Simply speak about the training that it takes phyiscal training that is to develop power like...

In your Mythical Chi video of the japanese guy making his energy pass through three guys. Whats the purpose of that skill? Why would you use that in a fight? Also how do you train to develop it? Dont say its chi. Because chi has to be trained by chi kung,strechting, hitting objects hard. To be able to manifest chi you must do both Soft or Yin exercises as well as Hard or Yang exercises. If you simply practice forms in the air with no Yang your chi wont be strong. If all you is stretch an never punch or kick anything than you will be flexible but will lack power(chi) to actually allow the chi to flow through your meridans to distrupt your opponents meridens and damage his chi flow.

A guy who can punch a 200lbs and make it move has more chi in punching that a guy who only does SIL LIM TAO

Oh by the way the guys doing Muay Thai delievering the knock outs. I betcha your long winded discussion on momemtum would go way over his head. He would have no idea what you mean! nor do i...reason being because it doesn't tell me how to develop it. I dont really care about how chi has the ability to knock someone out. Show me how to develop it properply and teach me how to apply against someone fighting me back.

Tyson was a freak, that is a given also a by-product of hard work and excellent training.
Funny that number 2 KO is a carbon copy of how HE got Ko'd by Lewis.

[Hendrik]

I guess you think he hard hard because he is strong?

If your mean "natural", no, you are wrong

Yes, Tyson had physical attributes that certainly helped get him to where he got, but it was his technique, discipline and training that put it all together

I guess you think he hard hard because he is strong?


yes, natural.

I have never said natural doesnt have to work.

natural is much more then just a physical attributes.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1073735][QUOTE=Hendrik;1073692]Thanks for your Tyson clip, like a few Nature, he is a nature. and all the explanation on momentum is for the people like myself who is NOT a nature to learn how a Nature does things which I cant and dont know how to do it naturally.

If your mean "natural", no, you are wrong

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A guess based on patterns- he probably means that Tyson seemed to flow naturally. Naturally does not mean - without traing or guidance- you need those to know natures path.

BTW- Tyson at one point lived and worked out here in the Phoenix metro.Ali lived here for a while too. One of Tyson's children died here in a hideous accident. Tyson also had some local issues because of his pigeons.

Intriguing to me any way- was the built in Cus DAmato system- the peek aboo-which he unfortunately got awy from before the Douglas fight protected the centerline. He was fairly square bodied allowing rapid use of either hand and he had balanced steps rather than hopping all over the place. His uppercuts paralleled chum kiu upper cuts.
Such talent and training got dissipated- a tragic figure. In my books- he is one of the greats.,,just because of his early work....prior to firing his trainer Rooney.

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Joy,

sorry for the missed word.

Yes, by Natural I mean a person is just geniously good at a certain thing and have those "sense" in them, from art to sport to music....etc.







-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A guess based on patterns- he probably means that Tyson seemed to flow naturally. Naturally does not mean - without traing or guidance- you need those to know natures path.

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1073735][QUOTE=Hendrik;1073692]Thanks for your Tyson clip, like a few Nature, he is a nature. and all the explanation on momentum is for the people like myself who is NOT a nature to learn how a Nature does things which I cant and dont know how to do it naturally.

If your mean "natural", no, you are wrong

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A guess based on patterns- he probably means that Tyson seemed to flow naturally. Naturally does not mean - without traing or guidance- you need those to know natures path.

BTW- Tyson at one point lived and worked out here in the Phoenix metro.Ali lived here for a while too. One of Tyson's children died here in a hideous accident. Tyson also had some local issues because of his pigeons.

Intriguing to me any way- was the built in Cus DAmato system- the peek aboo-which he unfortunately got awy from before the Douglas fight protected the centerline. He was fairly square bodied allowing rapid use of either hand and he had balanced steps rather than hopping all over the place. His uppercuts paralleled chum kiu upper cuts.
Such talent and training got dissipated- a tragic figure. In my books- he is one of the greats.,,just because of his early work....prior to firing his trainer Rooney.

joy chaudhuri

Yes Tyson did flow naturally, from appearance.
Yeh, the DAmato style was effective in the hands of the right guy (in this case Tyson) but i cant help thinking that its a physiclally demanding style of boxing.
I think by the time he got to Douglas his level of fitness just wasnt what it was a few years earlier, and he just found style harder to do
GlennR

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1073745][QUOTE=GlennR;1073735]

Yes Tyson did flow naturally, from appearance.
Yeh, the DAmato style was effective in the hands of the right guy (in this case Tyson) but i cant help thinking that its a physiclally demanding style of boxing.
I think by the time he got to Douglas his level of fitness just wasnt what it was a few years earlier, and he just found style harder to do
GlennR
_________________________________
All good boxing is demanding. You have to start young and for most -with some glaring exceptions
you start going downhill around 30 -- evn if your brain is still in place.

He had a terrible corner man in the Douglas fight- he was not in too bad a shape- not his best but still good- look at the number of those intense 3 minute rounds involved and one of his famed uppercuts knocked Douglas down.
But spirit/determination counts--- Douglas trained hard and he was actually fired up by the death of his mother not too long before the fight. he lost the motivation after that fight- balooned in weight and lost his intensity. Douglas also had a whopper of an uppercut but his jabs kept Tyson at bay and opened him up for power shots. There is that tragic picture of Tyson crawling on the floor of the ring trying to put his mouth piece back.

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1073747][QUOTE=Vajramusti;1073745]
_________________________________
All good boxing is demanding. You have to start young and for most -with some glaring exceptions
you start going downhill around 30 -- evn if your brain is still in place.

He had a terrible corner man in the Douglas fight- he was not in too bad a shape- not his best but still good- look at the number of those intense 3 minute rounds involved and one of his famed uppercuts knocked Douglas down.
But spirit/determination counts--- Douglas trained hard and he was actually fired up by the death of his mother not too long before the fight. he lost the motivation after that fight- balooned in weight and lost his intensity. Douglas also had a whopper of an uppercut but his jabs kept Tyson at bay and opened him up for power shots. There is that tragic picture of Tyson crawling on the floor of the ring trying to put his mouth piece back.

joy chaudhuri

Ofcourse all boxing is demanding.... i just think the DAmato style is more physically demanding. Just look at the deep leg work that Tyson does compared to a more stand up fighter like a Lewis. I know which of the 2 styles are easier to maintain over 12 rounds

And yep, his crews was not what it was, but by his own admision he hardly trained for that fight

Anyway... lets not start a Tyson thread... more than enough already i think ;)

[Violent Designs]

this thread seems to be showing a lot of peoples' true colors.

[Vajramusti]

this thread seems to be showing a lot of peoples' true colors.
----------------------------------------
No intention of a boxing or Tyson thread here. Nuff

True colors- color me wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[Niersun]

The following is what I always have in mind on fighting since I was a young Kyokushin decades ago, that type of momentum is what I am talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ytHK1hLgb8

So you after details on transferring your weight from the back foot to the front and twisting your hip when you strike??????

[IRONMONK]

I know this isn't wing chun but what do think of this short power generation in escrima?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOlmOzDiMaQ

[Hendrik]

So you after details on transferring your weight from the back foot to the front and twisting your hip when you strike??????

sure, That is one of many ways.

There are various way to handle/generate momentum for different purpose.

in my experience, certainly the details is very important because the Speed or acceleration element directly influence the Timing and the distance.

and often one speed up the hit via different changes in the trajectory to take the opponent off guard, IE the strike arrive faster then the opponent expect it might arrive.....etc by non linear timing control....

on the other hand, sometimes others' strike landed faster then what we expect, so we need to get t momentum to counter it...

so everything is full of surprise and expected to be like that. and if one doesnt have a clear and solid momentum handling. that is problem.

Thus, if one doesnt know the details , one cant use the tool well. cant use the tool well means will not be a good player.




This is why I pointed out some one here is full of BS even thought he keep bring up mmA gym.... fighting.... ect. since he is clueless on these details.

how the hell could one handle the timing in an operation, if one doesnt even know speed or acceleration which directly influence the timing which is the key of an operation? and how the hell is one go for real ko fight such as the Kyokushin or MT or Lou Toi (Chinese open Tournoment in South east asia) if one doesnt know how to handle timing?

I am not a fighter, and no mean to be a good one either, but still please dont BS me with the obvious of missing the basic.

one of the most beautiful thing i love in martial art is the surprise momentum generation like a curve ball where it is too late when one sees it. often in those spinning strike it is so beautiful that one thought is takes longer time to land but it goes faster or vice versal so KO at one strike is possible.

For a close body art like WCK, without the type 3, one will get jam or intercept or take down easy but with the type 3 there is where the fun start because timing is no longer linear, In my humble opinion.

[Hendrik]

I know this isn't wing chun but what do think of this short power generation in escrima?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOlmOzDiMaQ



For me, momentum is momentum, WC or Escrima or Karate or BJJ.....ect those are just label, so it doesnt matter.

For the power generation in this clip, I agree with the person mention about the need of short power generation so that not to lost opportunity.

Imo
His short power generation type is hand, arm , shoulder type and limited by the shoulder. This is a type 1 , 2 .