Tounge Fu

[WildBill]

“There is no philosophy: it is not until you study Buddhism that you will know there is no philosophy, nothing. Because when you believe something you will then find someone will defend themselves against your beliefs. Once you have a point, then another will have their point and the conflict begins. It is better to have no point. That is what we try to do as Buddhists, have no point. “, Jet Li

When you focus on proving a point, you are neglecting other perspectives in favor of a position. Some do this due to immmaturity, adolescent males constantly perpetuate ‘one upsmanship’ (I got one over on you). Others are limited by feeling inadequate. Focusing on your attachments, only to prove a point, is the realm of the dunce cap, the higher point being the limited point.

Many on martial forums do not argue the merits of their position, and only attack the person, such as the ganging up on this site.

Rudyard Kipling set the standard in his poem IF:

IF

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you
But make allowance for their doubting too,
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream--and not make dreams your master,
If you can think--and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it all on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on!"

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings--nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much,
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And--which is more--you'll be a Man, my son!

[David Jamieson]

Jet Li is hardly a renowned student of Buddhism apparently. He doesn't seem to be capable of making it over the bridge from perceived nihilism. I would say he represents the ideas of cultural revolution China which was when he received his core beleif system himself.

There IS a philosophy to Buddhism, it is called the 4 noble truths and it is at the core of ALL Buddhist thought. Second to that is the 8 fold path. A system of discipline by which to live one's life in accordance to the philosophy of the 4 noble truths.

Thanks for the Kipling, but he wasn't a Buddhist and was writing about a man's character in that poem and what is admirable about men who have that kind of character in context to the times he lived in and mostly, the English way. :)

In Kipling's "KIM" we see that he was interested in Buddhism, but in his statements which were often outrageously racially charged, it is made clear that Kipling was not a Buddhist by virtue of his lack of egalitarian views towards his fellow humans.

this doesn't diminish some of the highly though provoking writings he has provided us with, especially the whole idea of west meets east.

[sanjuro_ronin]

While I appreciate what it takes to be a Buddhist, I don't find that it is the way for me.
It's basic denial of what makes US Human and it's "renounciation" of Love is not for me.

[David Jamieson]

While I appreciate what it takes to be a Buddhist, I don't find that it is the way for me.
It's basic denial of what makes US Human and it's "renounciation" of Love is not for me.

The pursuit of Buddhism is not for everyone. But then, all pursuits are this way.
I don't think it denies what makes us human and instead all too clearly points out exactly what we are as humans. Also, as a practice and philosophy, it is absolutely about unconditional love through compassion.

It perhaps doesn't use terminology that is familiar to many?

Here are some quotes though anyway just to clear up what appears to be a misconception.

Buddha said of love:

Life has a great need of the presence of love, but not the sort of love that is based on lust, passion, attachment, discrimination, and prejudice.


Because the nature of such love depends on the concepts of 'me' and 'mine', it remains entangled in attachment and discrimination.

Because they are caught in attachment, they worry about accidents that could befall their loves ones even before such things actually take place. When such accidents do occur, they suffer terribly. Love that is based on discrimination breeds prejudice. People become indifferent or even hostile to those outside their own circle of love. Attachment and discrimination are sources of suffering for ourselves and others.

Maitri is the love that has the capacity to bring happiness to another. Karuna is the love which has the capacity to remove anothers suffering. Maitri(loving-kindness) and karuna(universal compassion) do not demand anything in return.

They extend to all people and all beings. In maitri and karuna there is no discrimination no 'mine' or 'not mine.' And because there is no discrimination, there is no attachment. Maitri and karuna bring happiness and ease suffering. They do not cause suffering and despair.

In truth, the teachings of shakyamuni buddha are in concert with the teachings of Jesus Christ. Definitions and terminology can be a hurdle, but in essence the message is: Love your enemies as you would love yourself.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In truth, the teachings of shakyamuni buddha are in concert with the teachings of Jesus Christ. Definitions and terminology can be a hurdle, but in essence the message is: Love your enemies as you would love yourself.

Indeed, agree 100%, except that buddhisim at its core seeks to "abolish" love in the human sense ( attachment and love go hand-in-hand) and tries to have on "transcend" Love and while that is similar to "divine love" in some ways, it is not the same thing.
Christians love starts with "the golden rule", its intermediate stage is "love they enemy" but is complete stage is "love is All and ALL is love because God is love and love is the force of creation, hence the force of all".
It seems that in Buddhisim love is a thing ( or multiple things), while in Christianity it should be everything.

I want to make it clear that, while I am a Christian, this is NOT a "one is better than the other", but I am pointing out why FOR ME, it is not MY path.

[David Jamieson]

No worries, it's an excellent topic for discussion.

First: What is love?

Is it just that? a word? Or does it have definition?

One could say that love is an unconditional positive regard.

Is it lust? It is personal passion for another? Or is that something different.

The idea of loving compassion and universal compassion are the Buddhist definitions of real and undying love and I believe these are the same as what Christ has in mind when he speaks of love. Christ asks that we love everyone equally as we love ourselves.

This has almost nothing to do with the sexual imperative which can be overrun with desires that are not in keeping with the truth of it and instead are a failing of discipline within the self.

Now, we are just men and at times we fall prey to our own lack of discipline in context to any profound teaching from any master. But we can also find ourselves readily and easily adhering to these concepts too.

people who act selflessly to help another are exercising true universal love. there is no need to define who teh person is, only that we identify the need they have and to seek to end their suffering as best we can through our act of love and compassion.

To not act, when one can does not adhere to the 8 fold path or "middleway" of:

Right view
Right intention
Right speech
Right action
Right livelihood
Right effort
Right mindfulness
Right concentration

If we were each to attain these virtuous traits, then the world and all within is safe!

If we were each to actually love our neighbour as we love ourselves, then the world and all within is safe!

I believe that Buddha and Jesus taught the same truth of human existence. They started with different audiences and different cultural context, but nevertheless... :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

No worries, it's an excellent topic for discussion.

First: What is love?

Is it just that? a word? Or does it have definition?

One could say that love is an unconditional positive regard.

Is it lust? It is personal passion for another? Or is that something different.

The idea of loving compassion and universal compassion are the Buddhist definitions of real and undying love and I believe these are the same as what Christ has in mind when he speaks of love. Christ asks that we love everyone equally as we love ourselves.

This has almost nothing to do with the sexual imperative which can be overrun with desires that are not in keeping with the truth of it and instead are a failing of discipline within the self.

Now, we are just men and at times we fall prey to our own lack of discipline in context to any profound teaching from any master. But we can also find ourselves readily and easily adhering to these concepts too.

people who act selflessly to help another are exercising true universal love. there is no need to define who teh person is, only that we identify the need they have and to seek to end their suffering as best we can through our act of love and compassion.

To not act, when one can does not adhere to the 8 fold path or "middleway" of:

Right view
Right intention
Right speech
Right action
Right livelihood
Right effort
Right mindfulness
Right concentration

If we were each to attain these virtuous traits, then the world and all within is safe!

If we were each to actually love our neighbour as we love ourselves, then the world and all within is safe!

I believe that Buddha and Jesus taught the same truth of human existence. They started with different audiences and different cultural context, but nevertheless... :)

I firmly believe that God is Love and that God expresses himself through US and as such, different audiences get a different messenger, but the core message is the same, the TRUTH is the same.
So Yes, I agree with you.

[MasterKiller]

According to my wife (and DJ's mom), I have the best tongue fu.

[wenshu]

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jezebel/2010/10/suicideb.gif

[David Jamieson]

I firmly believe that God is Love and that God expresses himself through US and as such, different audiences get a different messenger, but the core message is the same, the TRUTH is the same.
So Yes, I agree with you.

Agreed. For me, God is in all things for it was god who created all things, including love and hate, good and evil.

In a Judeo Christian sense, it is clear that the God of the ancient Hebrews encompassed all these things. His wrathful commands made it clear. But, with the New testament we see an abrupt and sharp turn around as now, in this telling, God is a living man who has come among us to help us learn universal compassion and truth of ourselves.

He says: The Lord will help those who help themselves.

This is a very telling thing in regards to personal responsibility and accountability and in my view, in every respect is a call to walk along the path that is 8 fold in the Buddhist way.

Our free will has been given to us long before the arrival of any master. But we need the masters to help us temper ourselves and not get caught up in our desires (sinful nature).

Without the reference points given to us by god through the masters, I would think we would be no more than savages forever caught in a cycle of desire and death.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My Christian views aside :)
Religion and civilzation have come down the ages hand-in-hand, hard to say which one beget the other.

[David Jamieson]

My Christian views aside :)
Religion and civilzation have come down the ages hand-in-hand, hard to say which one beget the other.

Yes, if only we had a collective memory that could be accessed... Then we could know for sure. :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

If by collective you mean something that would lead to this, I am all for it !!
http://www.wolfmanart.net/downloads/Iphone%20seven%20of%20nine.jpg

[Syn7]

Many on martial forums do not argue the merits of their position, and only attack the person, such as the ganging up on this site.

yeah this isnt anything new or unique... just look at politics... its getting heated now and all these things are starting to spill over into eachother... we used to be alot better at compartmentalizing, but those days are over... they say that church and state should be seperate... yeah right, lets see a buddhist or a muslim get elected potus or PM of canada... the rapid globalization of our world is changing everything, quickly... as a species we just arent used to change at this pace and we are starting to really clash... even within our homes nowdays you will see multiple political beliefs and differing ideology... moms catholic, dad is jewish, son is buddhist, sis is still searching... it happens now, and not that long ago that wasnt even conceivable...

[Syn7]

Yes, if only we had a collective memory that could be accessed... Then we could know for sure. :D

make it happen captain... tap in... ;)

[David Jamieson]

This may be of interest to some of you.



Jesus: If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also.
Buddha: If anyone should give you a blow with his hand, with a stick, or with a knife, you should abandon any desires and utter no evil words.

Jesus: Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, “Friend, let me take the speck out of your eye,” when you yourself do not see the log in your own eye? You, hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s eye.
Buddha: The faults of others are easier to see than one’s own; the faults of others are easily seen, for they are sifted like chaff, but one’s own faults are hard to see. This is like the cheat who hides his dice and shows the dice of his opponent, calling attention to the other’s shortcomings, continually thinking of accusing him.

Jesus: Your father in heaven makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous.
Buddha: The great cloud rains down on all whether their nature is superior or inferior. The light of the sun and the moon illuminates the whole world, both him who does well and him who does ill, both him who stands high and him who stands low.

Jesus: He said to them, “When I sent you out without a purse, bag, or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “No, not a thing.”
Buddha: Then the Lord addressed the monks, saying: “I am freed from all snares. And you, monks, you are freed from all snares.”

Jesus: The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in a field, which someone found and hid; then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
Buddha: If by giving up limited pleasures one sees far-reaching happiness, the wise one leaves aside limited pleasures, looking to far-reaching happiness.

Jesus: Those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will save it.
Buddha: With the relinquishing of all thought and egotism, the enlightened one is liberated through not clinging.



There are more, but these are key to both of them.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Great Post David, there is a universal truth to almost all religions because they all, ta their core, stem from the same source, God.

[David Jamieson]

And this one is huge with one of the greatest messages:



Buddha:Hatred do not ever cease in this world by hating, but by love; this is an eternal truth... Overcome anger by love, Overcome evil by good. overcome the miser by giving, overcome the liar by truth.

Jesus: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. From anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again.

There are parallels throughout these two masters teachings. Fascinating how truth is truth despite eternity! :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

And this one is huge with one of the greatest messages:



There are parallels throughout these two masters teachings. Fascinating how truth is truth despite eternity! :)

Indeed, also fascinating how this thread has turned out, I don't think it was what WildBill had in mind, LMAO !

[David Jamieson]

Indeed, also fascinating how this thread has turned out, I don't think it was what WildBill had in mind, LMAO !

Surprise Wildbill!
You've spawned a highly positively charged thread! :)

[boxerbilly]

Jet Li knows more than any of you do !

[GeneChing]

Jet Li knows more than any of you do ! I'm sure he does know more than me. :rolleyes: