Wing Chun Power training

[Yoshiyahu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUCqkOnyqOQ

Does any Wing Chun Kwoons do this type of training?

If so whats the benefit?

[LoneTiger108]

Yes. I have done this before, but it is something that was more influenced by a specific movie than a drill I was taught.

Specific pole drills I have experienced are a little more smooth than this, and definitely more accurate. This one particularly increases you grip strength using the cross arm posture we all do at the beginning of our forms. It can be done at the side too and the transitions don't need to be so muscle focussed either.

Any pole drills will increase your whole body strength in a way that 'should' still be connected to your Wing Chun, especially your grabbing hand and manipulation methods. Otherwise the ancestors wouldn't have bothered integrating the pole into the curricullum!

[chusauli]

That's 6.5 point pole 101. Everyone should do that with a balanced long pole.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chen Taiji uses the pole to help develop their "silk reeling" jing, good stuff.

[imperialtaichi]

In IYTC, we use a 12foot long spear with a 1kg head.

The aim is not just to develop strength, but more importantly fine motor control under heavy load.

[Wayfaring]

In IYTC, we use a 12foot long spear with a 1kg head.

Ah yes, I also work with these dimensions.

My aim is not only strength and fine motor control, but also to maintain some form of modesty. ;):D:D:D

[bennyvt]

yeh i do this. I use a metal pole, got the idea when I went to sifu Cliff Auyeung's school. You just have to make sure you build up on the weight of the pole. Too heavy and you can do real damage to your back. Except the obvious grip training it works as a good stance tester to. to keep your back straight and not bend forward takes some practice. I do these at the end of the other pole excercises to completely waste my grip. As this is the last thing you want to go in a fight.

[Graham H]

Yes. I have done this before, but it is something that was more influenced by a specific movie than a drill I was taught.

Specific pole drills I have experienced are a little more smooth than this, and definitely more accurate. This one particularly increases you grip strength using the cross arm posture we all do at the beginning of our forms. It can be done at the side too and the transitions don't need to be so muscle focussed either.

Any pole drills will increase your whole body strength in a way that 'should' still be connected to your Wing Chun, especially your grabbing hand and manipulation methods. Otherwise the ancestors wouldn't have bothered integrating the pole into the curricullum!

More influenced by a movie??? This is a pole drill that you are meant to do when beginning with the pole. It develops the attributes you need for controlling the pole. It is one of several drills that you should make.

Spencer you really think that is the reason why "our ancestors" introduced the pole. Maybe you think that Ng Mui witnessed a fight between two animals and gave birth to Ving Tsun as well??? rolleyes:

GH

[LoneTiger108]

More influenced by a movie??? This is a pole drill that you are meant to do when beginning with the pole. It develops the attributes you need for controlling the pole. It is one of several drills that you should make.

Listen, the guy in the clip looks like he hasn't been taught that drill as his body and concentration was not really of any benefit to his body other than muscle tension. Henbce, I was suggesting that he may have learnt this from a movie!

And if you practise this specific drill in the same manner, I would also suggest you approach it again with a 'softer' mind.


Spencer you really think that is the reason why "our ancestors" introduced the pole. Maybe you think that Ng Mui witnessed a fight between two animals and gave birth to Ving Tsun as well??? rolleyes:

I said:


Any pole drills will increase your whole body strength in a way that 'should' still be connected to your Wing Chun, especially your grabbing hand and manipulation methods. Otherwise the ancestors wouldn't have bothered integrating the pole into the curricullum!

And yes, this is the reason the pole was intergrated into Wing Chun. A very masculine influence for a style that was, at the time on the Red Boats, very feminine. Larger stances, longer arms, wider circles. All matching the core of WCK methods imho. Why do you think the pole was intergrated??

[LoneTiger108]

In IYTC, we use a 12foot long spear with a 1kg head.

The aim is not just to develop strength, but more importantly fine motor control under heavy load.

And IYTC is WCK how exactly? Do you use the same pole in your 6.5 form too?? Do the 2 methods match well?

[Graham H]

Listen, the guy in the clip looks like he hasn't been taught that drill as his body and concentration was not really of any benefit to his body other than muscle tension. Henbce, I was suggesting that he may have learnt this from a movie!

Without being too over analytical of video footage that drill doesn't look much different to the one I practice and teach. I definately didnt learn it from no movie either bro!!



And if you practise this specific drill in the same manner, I would also suggest you approach it again with a 'softer' mind.

With a softer mind eh??? This drill is difficult for beginners. Its meant to be. Soft minds get beat!! Soft Ving Tsun does not work. Fighting is dirty and by no means soft!!! Many WCK systems work on the idea that you have to be soft and yeilding, manipulating and reidirecting of forces made through contact with "arm bridges". Its utter rubbish!!! I have seen people try and fight with this kind of WCK nonsense and I have seen them get beat. In fact they resort back to what we can do already with no WCK. Grab, flailing punches and kicks and no balance. Its the reason why I left other systems of WCK.

Long pole training and sparring is hard work. If its not then you are not doing it right.



And yes, this is the reason the pole was intergrated into Wing Chun. A very masculine influence for a style that was, at the time on the Red Boats, very feminine. Larger stances, longer arms, wider circles. All matching the core of WCK methods imho. Why do you think the pole was intergrated??

If you think for one minute that Ving Tsun was invented by a woman and is feminine then you are living in the clouds with the rest of the fairies and Terence. ;)

The pole is as much part of Ving Tsun as Siu Lim Tau. The way of using and the strategic thinking behind the pole is the same as the open hand forms in my system. The pole develops many attributes needed for open hand fighting. So my answer is I don't think the pole was intergrated at a later time. It was there from the start IMO.

GH

[Sihing73]

The pole is as much part of Ving Tsun as Siu Lim Tau. The way of using and the strategic thinking behind the pole is the same as the open hand forms in my system. The pole develops many attributes needed for open hand fighting. So my answer is I don't think the pole was intergrated at a later time. It was there from the start IMO.GH

If they pole was there from the start, why such a radical change in stances and power generation? The knives look like WC but the Pole is distinctly different, ime.

[Graham H]

If they pole was there from the start, why such a radical change in stances and power generation? The knives look like WC but the Pole is distinctly different, ime.

Its simple. Try and find a structurally better way to hold it and fight with it. The people who help evolve this system were not and are not stupid. Its all about finding the best way in which we can use the body for fighting. The pole may look distinctively different but there are ideas inside from the open hand forms. At least that's how it is in my lineage and it makes perfect sense!!!

For those that think the long pole is more for tradition, think that its uses are different and was added in the system in exchange for hand techniques (or whatever the story is) simply do not know any better and haven't been taught properly.

The problem is with certain Sifu that have reputations to uphold fool their students into beleiving them and its all down to the fact that they don't know it and can't answer the questions.

There is a certain Ving Tsun teacher here in the UK who claims to have been taught the whole system by Ip Man and yet will only teach the wooden dummy form after 12 years and behind a big red curtain. He also charges big bucks for the pleasure but I know that he knows as much about the Jong as I know about alien life!!!

There is also another well known Teacher here in the UK that claims to have been taught the whole system and yet his knowledge of the long pole makes as much sense as a chocolate saucepan.

W***ers the lot of um!!! :D

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Without being too over analytical of video footage that drill doesn't look much different to the one I practice and teach. I definately didnt learn it from no movie either bro!!

So who did you learn it from then?


With a softer mind eh??? This drill is difficult for beginners. Its meant to be. Soft minds get beat!! Soft Ving Tsun does not work.

I can see you misinterpreting what I mean here, but your view is clear. Good luck with the drill and future heart problems :eek:


If you think for one minute that Ving Tsun was invented by a woman and is feminine then you are living in the clouds with the rest of the fairies and Terence. ;)

I only hold on to the folklore stories out of respect. And FWIW Wing Chun is a hard & soft style which has been propogated by far too many men in the past 400 years or so who rely on their bulk and muscles rather than their heart and mind.


The pole is as much part of Ving Tsun as Siu Lim Tau. The way of using and the strategic thinking behind the pole is the same as the open hand forms in my system. The pole develops many attributes needed for open hand fighting.

I agree 100% with you about the matching methods, centre & straight lines are distinctly linked to the pole training for one.


So my answer is I don't think the pole was intergrated at a later time.It was there from the start IMO.

Its documented that Leurng Yee Tai exchanged the pole while on the Red Boats by Ip Man himself, and I have also tried to highlight where the Lee Shing pole originates in previous threads as our form is much longer than Ip Mans. This is all I need to know, so if you feel its always been there please provide some more evidence because I am interested in the pole history.

[Graham H]

So who did you learn it from then?

......from Philipp Bayer and to date I haven't witnessed anything else or anybody who comes close to the understanding and using of it.


I can see you misinterpreting what I mean here, but your view is clear. Good luck with the drill and future heart problems :eek:


Thank you for caring about me so much! I love you xx



I only hold on to the folklore stories out of respect. And FWIW Wing Chun is a hard & soft style which has been propogated by far too many men in the past 400 years or so who rely on their bulk and muscles rather than their heart and mind.

Respect for who. There is very little proof and next to no evidence about the history of Ving Tsun.


I agree 100% with you about the matching methods, centre & straight lines are distinctly linked to the pole training for one.

;)


Its documented that Leurng Yee Tai exchanged the pole while on the Red Boats by Ip Man himself, and I have also tried to highlight where the Lee Shing pole originates in previous threads as our form is much longer than Ip Mans. This is all I need to know, so if you feel its always been there please provide some more evidence because I am interested in the pole history.

Ip Man said many things. Were they true??? Ive heard otherwise. It doesn't matter to me anyway. I'd rather look at what we have today than rely on ghosts! If Ip Man were alive today I would imagine that things would be very different. Many Ip Man stories are myths. Even some of the Wong Shun Leung stories have been blown out of proportion and exaggerated. Thats life. Its like it everywhere.

I have no evidence for you Spencer, nobody has evidence. What we can do is look at things logically and come to some possible conclusions but nothing should be set in stone.

GH

[imperialtaichi]

And IYTC is WCK how exactly? Do you use the same pole in your 6.5 form too?? Do the 2 methods match well?

IYTC is NOT WCK and NOT KL22.

But

Northern Chinese are anatomically similar to Southern Chinese and similar to Europeans.

There are only so many ways we can train our body. Sooner or later methods overlap.

[LoneTiger108]

......from Philipp Bayer and to date I haven't witnessed anything else or anybody who comes close to the understanding and using of it.

I guess that almost everybody that has been close to their Sifu would say the same. I would!


I have no evidence for you Spencer, nobody has evidence. What we can do is look at things logically and come to some possible conclusions but nothing should be set in stone.

Graham, this is exactly my point. If you have none, I have none, this whole forum population has none then why be so negative to others opinions and description of what they do or what they have been told?? Logic is one thing, but simply desregarding a story, practise or method just because it is different than your own influences is silly.

I've had to learn that as I was one of those frogs in a well for a very long time. Totally immersed by my Sifus teachings for years. Thing is, when I went out and met others I knew what I had was very special but I am having to learn how to communicate what's what and how to exchange without anyone losing confidence in what they already do. That is a challenge for me personally, but it has started and can only continue with people who are willing.

Who here is willing to train their 6.5 pole with a Flag, for example? Who has learnt that from their Sifu or experimented on their own? Who can already do that?

6.5 Pole and Flag turning is very good for power training, but who wants to know about it?

[LoneTiger108]

There are only so many ways we can train our body. Sooner or later methods overlap.

Yes this is true, but the mechanics of my 6.5 pole form are very specific because they directly link to the Wing Chun seed and yum yeurng palm methods, especially gaansau.

Can the same be said for IYTC? Does your WCK still dominate the way you use it, or are IYTC methods more prominent in your application?

[chusauli]

IYTC is NOT WCK and NOT KL22.

But

Northern Chinese are anatomically similar to Southern Chinese and similar to Europeans.

There are only so many ways we can train our body. Sooner or later methods overlap.


LOL! Ya' think?!

[RedJunkRebel]

Yes this is true, but the mechanics of my 6.5 pole form are very specific because they directly link to the Wing Chun seed and yum yeurng palm methods, especially gaansau.

Good to hear, Spencer. Our pole training mechanics are almost exactly like the gaun sau as well as our pulling/grabbing hand. We train the pole to develop the shocking power and structure for both.

[LoneTiger108]

Good to hear, Spencer. Our pole training mechanics are almost exactly like the gaun sau as well as our pulling/grabbing hand. We train the pole to develop the shocking power and structure for both.

Ah! I like the sound of that.

Out of interest, what material are your poles?? Generally I see the hard rose wood tapered poles that aren't as good as the white wax for training good shock power...