Pak Sau Alternatives?

[imperialtaichi]

OK, this is one of those "one step at a time demos"; it's just to illustrate a few ideas, so don't look at it as some real fighting clips.

I know some of you guys can do a pretty good job with the Pak Sau; but personally, I am not a big with it. I rather use other methods. I like to really screw up the opponent's structure and balance and smash them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_IRHkUIp_4

Cheers,
John

[Vajramusti]

OK, this is one of those "one step at a time demos"; it's just to illustrate a few ideas, so don't look at it as some real fighting clips.

I know some of you guys can do a pretty good job with the Pak Sau; but personally, I am not a big with it. I rather use other methods. I like to really screw up the opponent's structure and balance and smash them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_IRHkUIp_4

Cheers,
John
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your views on pak sao and alternatives.
Pak sao can also mess up structure and balance and "smash". There are all sorts of combinations with elbows-provided the distance for the elbows is good.

joy chaudhuri

[YungChun]

Lots of options. PakDa was too far out--I would be moving into him...

That pak was weak.. Step in with it, move the horse in, move him and see what happens... FanSao..

Lots of other tools you can use... Try the punch first and move into his space, then pak...or another tool...AND attack below with your horse as you step in, BuiMa or whatever....

[k gledhill]

OK, this is one of those "one step at a time demos"; it's just to illustrate a few ideas, so don't look at it as some real fighting clips.

I know some of you guys can do a pretty good job with the Pak Sau; but personally, I am not a big with it. I rather use other methods. I like to really screw up the opponent's structure and balance and smash them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_IRHkUIp_4

Cheers,
John


Dont take this the wrong way, but its all wrong.
1st the punch cant even reach the jaw with any bend in the arm to deliver force to it. iow move in [your going to keep going ...] thats just the punch. Have the guy stand close enough that his arm can hit your jaw with force to move your head backwards, it will be bent.
then slap the arm but dont 'hold hands' let the impetus of the pak make a 1-2 " gap for the following striking arm, the arm striking takes over the lead line from pak, pak retracts to make another strike instantly....
2nd because you cant reach you are simply offering a fully extended 'lever', making it easy [one of our goals] to turn the opponent...

the leading centered elbow makes the pak sao staying on the arm to control it redundant, iow your wasting your pak hand by over-trapping , when the leading striking arm following SHOULD take over the leading attacking action and create a barrier with its forearm that makes another hand redundant...2 hands dont need to fight one.
The leading arm, through alignment drilling in chi-sao should form a solid line of force as it strikes, bent, and utilizing the body weight and stability in the 3 actions at once idea.

no momentum inwards.....

your doing pak / lan sao to compensate for inability to use your lead striking arm, iow you dont have the fixed elbow ideas of VT.

ill try to post something myself to explain....

[n.mitch]

The punch with the pak will.reach if the opponent is stepping in with the punch, another good idea is to punch of the pak hand , using the idle hand, its a bit faster and has.more reach, using a running pak or guiding hand

[KPM]

I know some of you guys can do a pretty good job with the Pak Sau; but personally, I am not a big with it. I rather use other methods. I like to really screw up the opponent's structure and balance and smash them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_IRHkUIp_4

Cheers,
John

Good clip! You are absolutely right about the Pak Da....the way you demonstrate it. But what you are showing is a pretty poor "classic" Pak Da! You are not closing with the opponent or collapsing his structure. So of course it leaves you vulnerable to his counter. Your alternative looks far more effective...because you are moving in and to his side and turning the opponent to break his structure. But one can "really screw up the opponent's structure and balance and smash them"....as you say....with the "classic" Pak Da....when done properly. :)

[sihing]

First John props for sharin your vid & your ideas and explainations, a moving picture is worth more than a million words, so good on you:)

Like the others have said, the way I would use pak da would be different from what was showed in your vid. All actions go towards that opponents spine to off balance him, so when a bridge is developed like in a pak sau, thru the contact point you attack the spine (center axis). Like Kevin G explain, the next attack would immediately come thru and take over that line with enough structure behind it to handle any interruption that opponent might give you, as I quote Kev ,"the leading striking arm following SHOULD take over the leading attacking action and create a barrier with its forearm that makes another hand redundant...2 hands dont need to fight one.
The leading arm, through alignment drilling in chi-sao should form a solid line of force as it strikes, bent, and utilizing the body weight and stability in the 3 actions at once idea." It sounds like fantasy, but when you learn the method it works, or allows you to pull this off.

One alternative that I have learned, as there are many, is to use what I call a "cutting" striking action. In your clip your partner throws a right jab, instead of pak'g with your left hand just strike over top with a bent arm, via fok sau training. We perfect this idea in our pak sau drill, learning the right angle, stepping and facing.

Now here's a clip that Ernie (my VT coach) made when I visited him in LA 09', http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shePFekjsC8 , in some of it there are 3 frames going at once. In the beginning of the clip, watch the middle frame, he's explaining (sorry no sound on the clip) how to do it to Craig, then at :06 he does it till :032. Notice first how he always finishes with a push, our way of projecting our structure into our partners, a training method which works our horse, then he gets me (I'm his partner in the drill) to followup attack from various angles, so as to learn what to do if it's a combo attack (which is likely what is going to happen). At :44 second in the clip, the right side frame is where we bring realizm to this idea, here I am feeding lead jabs to Craig and he's cutting the jab with his strike and entering in with follow up, a isolated sparring drill (take it easy on us, as we were just learning this that day:)). Again notice how Craig is staying in striking range and forcing me back, taking my structure out of play and putting me way on the defensive. The clips also shows some of our laap sau drill and chasing drills.

Regarding your alternative you put yourself out of your own "VT frame" as I like to put it, your facing his back and way inside, clinchin range. At this space it's take down time IMO, and from there you GNP which is good as well. I wouldn't stay and strike from a standing position much from that position/range with a VT type method. Of course one can stay and strike if they want, as the are some vulnerable areas, but the opponent, still being on his feet has the option to just run out of range as now his back is given.

Thanks again for sharin,

James

[Hendrik]

OK, this is one of those "one step at a time demos"; it's just to illustrate a few ideas, so don't look at it as some real fighting clips.

I know some of you guys can do a pretty good job with the Pak Sau; but personally, I am not a big with it. I rather use other methods. I like to really screw up the opponent's structure and balance and smash them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_IRHkUIp_4

Cheers,
John


John,

Thanks for sharing.

in my opinion, i think we need to clearly define what is static structure, dynamic structure, momentum, and force intensity. So that we are clear on what we are sharing.

static structure, dynamic structure, momentum, and force intensity are different things.



I think this is the time to introduce: ( in mandarin)

Destroy structure ( Hui Shing) Broken momentum ( Po Shih) and Cancel Force (Siau Jin).


For example,

pak, according to the old classical TCMA is target for canceling the force intensity. this is a fast and lite type of tool.

breaking the structure, static or dynamic needs a Handling tool which is heavier and slower type of tool then the pak type. IE: tok sau or up lifting hand, whichm "hold" and scoop up the elbow and totally offset the structure.

handling momentum needs a redirect type of adaptive tool which because it is dealing with something in motion. IE: bong which lead what is move in roll over/off.


and sure, beside a pure use of each individual tool above, one could combine them.

However, different tool has different purpose. and if the above is not clearly define we could easily confuse between breaking structure, handling momentum, or cancel force intensity.

[k gledhill]

That is jum sao strike, cutting across the arm ...
same 'energy' as pak sao.

[Hendrik]

That is jum sao strike, cutting across the arm ...
same 'energy' as pak sao.


IMHO,
nope, different types.

Pak is suppose to cancel the force intensity so even if one doesnt move a way the force intensity is reduce big time at the spot of execution.

Jum sao is like the ice breaking ship which drive and cut into the opponent's structure using his forward moving momentum.


So, in case one want to use a Pak + or Pak combination to break structure, one need another tool which team up with Pak to do the job. Putting entire body behind Pak doesnt increase the effectiveness of Pak much. Pak's characteristic doesnt do drive and cut into opponent's structure.

[YouKnowWho]

In a combat situation, your opponent's body will keep moving toward you even after you have redirect his punch. The distance will be much closer than the distance as shown in that clip. It will be a clinching range instead of a punching range.

Pak Sau is conservation approach. You just redirect your opponent's arm away but you have not taken advantage on it. In a real fight, it's not that easy for your arm is touching your opponent's arm (build an arm bridge), if you can control that arm after that and use that arm to jam your opponent's back arm, you can finish your fight much quicker.

[imperialtaichi]

Hello everyone,

Thanks for the comments, they are most instructive.

Yes, I should better change the title of the clip to "How NOT to do Pak Sau." Which I will do right now. ;)

Cheers,
John

[YouKnowWho]

I rather use other methods. I like to really screw up the opponent's structure and balance and smash them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_IRHkUIp_4

In this clip, you use your palm to deflect your opponent's punch with your "虎口(Hu Kou) - tiger mouth" face toward yourself. If you put your "虎口(Hu Kou) - tiger mouth" to face toward your opponent (like holding a baseball bat), you will have much better control on your opponent's elbow joint. A better arm control can help you to "really screw up your opponent's structure and balance and ...".

.

[Violent Designs]

Boxers use "pak sao" pretty much all day long.

Better than any other styles I've seen in comparison.

[imperialtaichi]

Hey Guys,

Have an idea, but only if you would like to participate.

Just post your favorite Pak Sau (or Pak Sau looking) youtube clips here, can be your own, can be someone else's, can be other styles; can also be totally crap ones (which would be fun).... and I will create a playlist on my channel called "KFMag Forum Paks Do's and Dont's" in a few days.

It will be a fun great discussion starter.

Cheers,
John

[imperialtaichi]

In this clip, you use your palm to deflect your opponent's punch with your "虎口(Hu Kou) - tiger mouth" face toward yourself. If you put your "虎口(Hu Kou) - tiger mouth" to face toward your opponent (like holding a baseball bat), you will have much better control on your opponent's elbow joint. A better arm control can help you to "really screw up your opponent's structure and balance and ...".

.

Hello YKW,

Yes, in KL22, move #20 "連環三掌（三板掌） － Three Palm Combo", the second palm is exactly that. It is called the "橫掌". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM 1min26sec.

Although I never thought of describing it as "baseball bat" grip, as you so elegantly put it.

Cheers,
John

[YouKnowWho]

Instead to just to use your back hand Pak Sau to delect your opponent's punch, it will be safer to use your leading arm to deflect your opponent's forearm. You then use your back hand to delect his elbow by using "橫掌". This may sound like 2 steps process and may not sound as fast as the Pak Sau, but since your leading hand can control your opponent's wrist and your back hand can control his elbow, a 2 points control instead of just 1 point control, the speed trade off will be worthwhile. Also since you can use both hand to pull your opponent's arm toward you, your opponent's resistence will pull your punch into his face. That will create a "head on colussion" that you are looking for.

[bennyvt]

I tend to think about a pak being a punch that has been stopped at the hand. Then the punch has to be thrown. I dont throw a pak da. It means that you really have had to have moved the strike before your punch has been thorwn or you just hit the hand. I throw the hand at the face and if I hit the arm at my hand I Try to slip it and continue the punch. If not, that is when the back hand is thrown. If not, you are throwing two arms togeather that can be easily blocked. If you aim more at the centre and not at the hand it will "break their structure" or the arm will fly across and the pak can be an attack.
In the demo using the knife stirke out of SLt to reface and strike would have fixed the stuff up anyway.

[k gledhill]

Your overlooking jut sao for a way to 'over-make' a pak :D...if after the leading strike is intercepted, making an X we jutsao and strike with the following strike.

We us pak sao if there is no contact and the way is filled with potential interception, iow an arm a punch is in the way of our striking....if our strike is intercepted after pak-sao we use jut if an 'x' is created...

pak sao > jut sao is a seamless continuity of attacking, and our punches naturally have ajutsao as the leading strike recycles back and down suddenly to make way for a following strike, iow once you establish a bridge with juts and they try to block, keep jutsaoing over their bridge.

pak sao drills starts by having a partner simply hold a leading arm outstretched 'meat' we then use minimal force to displace this arm with our pak hand, we 'should' be able to use one finger to do a pak sao to prove the 'timing' of the technique , rather than force and chasing across the centerline, bad. And the pak sao point being the end of the lever not the elbow [strongest point] .
we then add a punch as we pak so the punch and pak meet in the forward line taking over from each other at that point, using the 'tut' sao sweeping action of recovering the lead to replace with wu....
you will probably be too far away from the jaw of the partner so we add motion, dynamic momentum backing up the 'whole' but first we can breakdown and isolate any issues in the sequence alone....ie too much force can be shown by suddenly removing the arm to be pak'ed.
If too much pak sao force the hand will fly across the line , bad. If the hand stops ,controlled by the elbow position, good. Pak starts from the body [handle of the whip] and the elbow is the beginning of the whip, the hand the tip, we whip the point to the centerline aka pak sao contact or not we stay on the line to punch from....we can also practice pak-saoing to our own centerline in air and then throwing a straight punch...good training to establish line control .

pak in drilling can be 'allowed' ie the partner lets the leadin arm be displaced, or rigidly tries to maintain the arm to show bad timing or the need to follow up with jut sao...or turn with lop sao, iow if the arm is presented as a 'lever' we turn the partner on their axis line....


in the compilation clip below you can see pak used in a flowing exchange ...to turn the opponent or open a 'door', pole training too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScdR_VLuyww

you can see the guy in the red t shirt is using too much pak force and turning himself before philipp , who simply takes the openings and strikes, letting the opponent move and showing what to strike....

[YouKnowWho]

Your 拍手(Pak Sau) may help your opponent to change his straight punch into a hook punch.

[Sihing73]

Your 拍手(Pak Sau) may help your opponent to change his straight punch into a hook punch.

Interesting thought, if the Pak is applied properly why would it result in a hook?

IME, a Pak should be right around the elbow, if you can catch it right. If you apply the Pak beyond the elbow, further up the arm, you can disrupt the opponents structure and limit his options. IMHO, a Pak should never be applied close to the fist but either right before, on or beyond the elbow. Of course, this is often easier said than done. ;)

[YouKnowWho]

Interesting thought, if the Pak is applied properly why would it result in a hook?

IME, a Pak should be right around the elbow, if you can catch it right. If you apply the Pak beyond the elbow, further up the arm, you can disrupt the opponents structure and limit his options. IMHO, a Pak should never be applied close to the fist but either right before, on or beyond the elbow. Of course, this is often easier said than done. ;)
Sometime

- the distance may be too far, or
- your timing may be a bit off,

that your Pak Sau won't be able to reach to your opponent's elbow but only reach to his fore-arm instead.

Also your opponent's straight punch may be just a "set up" and the moment that you have "intention" to apply your Pak Sau (your Pak Sau may not even touch his arm yet), his arm already spin and changed into a hook punch (because his hook punch path is now "clear").

Since Pak Sau will give your opponent's arm too much freedom, a Fuk Sau that can "sticky" on his arm may be better. It will be even better if you can grab and hold on his arm at his elbow joint.

[Vajramusti]

Interesting thought, if the Pak is applied properly why would it result in a hook?

(((A good pak sao should bot allow the turning into a hook. It's in the details..)))Joy

IME, a Pak should be right around the elbow, if you can catch it right. If you apply the Pak beyond the elbow, further up the arm, you can disrupt the opponents structure and limit his options. IMHO, a Pak should never be applied close to the fist but either right before, on or beyond the elbow. Of course, this is often easier said than done. ;)

((A different POV---that is one of the problems I saw in John's visual. .. pak saoing at the elbow...
by that time you can be hit))

Joy chaudhuri

[Sihing73]

((A different POV---that is one of the problems I saw in John's visual. .. pak saoing at the elbow...
by that time you can be hit))

Joy chaudhuri

Hi Joy,

I don't like getting hit, messes up my gorgeous looks :p

When applying a Pak I like to get off the line so even if I miss the Pak, there is also the chance that they will miss the punch. Of course, I also move in when doing the Pak and I have the rear hand up as a secondary line of defense as well. Again, much easier to write than to pull off in a real scenerio against someone skilled at boxing.

I kind of view the Pak as an obstruction, you put it out there on the line and do not reach for the incoming punch. If the punch crosses the line and makes contact, then the Pak may start closer to the wrist, but the opponents force will continue to drive forward and will be forced off the line, towards the opposite shoulder, by the Pak and your own elbow energy. As a result the Pak should end up at or beyond the opponents elbow. However, you do not press the Pak to the side, rather your energy should go forward, towards the opponent. I am not sure if I explained that properly but hope it makes a little bit of sense.

So, do you think the Pak should be done before the elbow? I agree that it is hard to apply on a fast moving arm. Also hard to apply against a jab or other type of punch which is trained to retract almost as fast as it goes out.

For the record, there are other things I prefer to a Pak, I like a Lan Sau and Wu Sau combination too. I once trained with a semi-pro boxer when attending the PA State Police Academy. This guy was one of our instructors and was huge. I honestly think he could have supported my entire body wieght on his outstretched arm. Needless to say, Pak did not work well against him and required some modification on my part. I got hit a few times training with him, but it helped me learn :o

[YouKnowWho]

When applying a Pak I like to get off the line so even if I miss the Pak, there is also the chance that they will miss the punch.
Your (general YOU) side step may just run into your opponent's hook punch that just changed from his straight punch.


So, do you think the Pak should be done before the elbow?

That will be even worse. You (again general YOU here) may eat your opponent's elbow. Your Pak just help your opponent to bend his arm. I think a Tan Sau (on the forearm) followed by a Fu Sau (on the elbow joint) will be much better.

A horizonal force vector such as Pak Sau can help your opponent to change the direction of his force vector (such as a straight punch into a hook punch). That's the problem we are discussing here. If you can't control your opponent's punching arm, your Pak Sau may just give yourself more problem than solution.

[k gledhill]

Interesting thought, if the Pak is applied properly why would it result in a hook?

IME, a Pak should be right around the elbow, if you can catch it right. If you apply the Pak beyond the elbow, further up the arm, you can disrupt the opponents structure and limit his options. IMHO, a Pak should never be applied close to the fist but either right before, on or beyond the elbow. Of course, this is often easier said than done. ;)

pak sao should be by the wrist as a lever becomes easier the further from the end to the axis....IF the elbow is offered after overturning or we turn you, then we can trap it to prevent re-facing.....the elbow is stronger than the weaker wrist . I can pak sao you with one finger at the wrist, i cant at the elbow.

[sihing]

pak sao should be by the wrist as a lever becomes easier the further from the end to the axis....IF the elbow is offered after overturning or we turn you, then we can trap it to prevent re-facing.....the elbow is stronger than the weaker wrist . I can pak sao you with one finger at the wrist, i cant at the elbow.

One thing I've experienced over the years, meeting people coming in to try a class, is when they punch, they stiffin up the whole arm (something we as VT practitioners try not to do), when this happens, when you pak close to their wrist it moves them offline and closes off their facing. People don't know how to ease their tension, and seperate the upper and lower arm, and when this is the case it is good for us. Even people trained in other MA have this problem, in a non stressed environment. It's one of the hardest bad habits they have to let go when learning VT IMO.

In a fight anything can happen, nothing is guarantee'd except that you will probably take a shot or two, but VT is very good at teaching us to eat up space and spring forward into our opponents Center Axis, which makes it hard for them to out hook us and flank us with attacks, unless you stay in boxing range and trade (like some advocate), you can avoid this counter to your pak.

In the end if comes down to your skills vs his skills, if his are better your in for a tough night:eek:


James

[Hendrik]

iMHO,


It goes back to what is a Pak Sau suppose to do? It seems that different people has different definition of Pak sau.

So, what is a Pak sau?

[GlennR]

iMHO,


It goes back to what is a Pak Sau suppose to do? It seems that different people has different definition of Pak sau.

So, what is a Pak sau?


Yep, il agree with you here Hendrick

Some view it as a slap away of a punch at the fist, right up to connecting at the upper arm compromising the opponents structure

To be honest, im thiniking its just a tool and that all the explanations on the thread so far have merit

Its a bit like saying there is only one type of jab.

Theres heavy jabs, lighter jabs and so on

I think its all about the opponent and what you have to deal with at the time

GlennR

[YouKnowWho]

what is a Pak sau?
The problem is the word 拍(Pak) that "after contact, your hand will no longer connect with your opponent's arm". You will have no control where your opponent's arm will go after that. It's like your opponent comes in to you, instead of give him a hug, you push him away. It violates the TCMA "粘(Nian) - sticky" principle.

Instead of using horizontal force vector to deflect your opponent's straight punch with a 90 degree contact, it will be better to use a 30 to 45 dgreee force vector to deflect your opponent's punch. There are 2 advantages by using this approach:

- you will have more time to connect your hand on your opponent's arm. This will provide you with more Tinjing.
- you give your opponent less chance to borrow your force to change his striking path.

In TCMA, it's called "挂(Gua) - comb the hair".

[KPM]

Yep, il agree with you here Hendrick

Some view it as a slap away of a punch at the fist, right up to connecting at the upper arm compromising the opponents structure

To be honest, im thiniking its just a tool and that all the explanations on the thread so far have merit

Its a bit like saying there is only one type of jab.

Theres heavy jabs, lighter jabs and so on

I think its all about the opponent and what you have to deal with at the time

GlennR


I agree with Glenn. A Pak Sau is just a "shape" and can be applied in several ways.

[sihing]

When I teach pak initially to new people, I teach them to slap the partners forearm into their centers, in this way the partner is feeling the pressure coming back into them. Part of this training is to teach the person aim, how do I aim my force back into the other person so it can effect them (this also trains the persons structure, as they have to accept the force coming back into them as well, expanding/compressing spring idea here..). That's one purpose and a basic one. It also teaches an outside bridge situation, a clearing action as well, and to do it with unity , as Kev G already explained here, "Pak starts from the body [handle of the whip] and the elbow is the beginning of the whip, the hand the tip, we whip the point to the centerline aka pak sao contact or not we stay on the line to punch from..." with minimal force as to not lose our facing and balance, so in other words over pak'g is taken out of the picture, we stay within our frame and inline with our target.

In the end pak can be use to just parry something away, a last effort backup, to not take a full hit and evade, as is it better to maintain a VT body and take a hit or lose that frame and avoid the hit??? Don't be a slave to the system, be it's master...


James

[k gledhill]

One thing I've experienced over the years, meeting people coming in to try a class, is when they punch, they stiffin up the whole arm (something we as VT practitioners try not to do), when this happens, when you pak close to their wrist it moves them offline and closes off their facing. People don't know how to ease their tension, and seperate the upper and lower arm, and when this is the case it is good for us. Even people trained in other MA have this problem, in a non stressed environment. It's one of the hardest bad habits they have to let go when learning VT IMO.

In a fight anything can happen, nothing is guarantee'd except that you will probably take a shot or two, but VT is very good at teaching us to eat up space and spring forward into our opponents Center Axis, which makes it hard for them to out hook us and flank us with attacks, unless you stay in boxing range and trade (like some advocate), you can avoid this counter to your pak.

In the end if comes down to your skills vs his skills, if his are better your in for a tough night:eek:


James

exactly....the dan chi-sao drill helps alleviate this early on by making the jum punch relax back to fok sao [neutral elbow] as the partners bong stays up to allow the retraction for a second , this also trains us not to make 'false' bridges and sense things , instead we retract and keep doing our thing....the tan also recoils back slightly after striking against the jum sao, as if retracting after hitting out. neither waiting to feel and roll with the other in a sequence that leads to chasing and waiting arms.
I try to show this rigidity by making my shoulder soft then rigid or simply removing my arm as they try to pak sao it, showing that we dont require any contact to make counteractions....and how the axis line is reached by simple parries to the wrist.
Or over use of force on the line , allowed to make the guy spin out of control enought to take advantage of openings ..

most will respond with a tensing up if you slap their arms. leading to the goal to turn them so they face 90 deg from you so their opposite arm is now totally isolated, lop is for this turning grab abd make them face left or right then shove etc...

[Vajramusti]

pak sao should be by the wrist as a lever becomes easier the further from the end to the axis....IF the elbow is offered after overturning or we turn you, then we can trap it to prevent re-facing.....the elbow is stronger than the weaker wrist . I can pak sao you with one finger at the wrist, i cant at the elbow.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes- a little past the wrist is the bridge- you can control many things from that bridge.
Takes practice.

joy chaudhuri

[k gledhill]

I agree with Glenn. A Pak Sau is just a "shape" and can be applied in several ways.

pak is an energy ;)....jum sao has pak energy, jum is a pak but with elbow energy to maintain the line as we strike iow a paking energy combined with a forward strike in 1 action, bong has pak energy, tan has pak energy striking and using the elbow to spread off the line to create the ging forceas it also strikes forwards, etc......:D ging force. the elbows contain this energy as they maneuver to and from our centerlines, bong uses the upper arm to 'slap' left or right opening up the same lines a pak is trying to.

we are discussing pak DA...of course there are variations of pak, to angle back at 45 deg and pak to regain a tactical line on entry of the opponent.
we x the line with pak sao in the rear pak so the pak sao is by our jaw if we strike under a jabbing arm or as most guys who raise elbows up. Dangerous, but hey, we are fighting :D

leading front pak sao doesnt x the leading centerline while doing angling or pak da, the rear pak x's the line to either ear/jaw . we can feed the front pak back to the rear x'ed pak position with a fixed elbow....as wu sao going back 3 times in SLT. Creating a triangulation of energy back and forth along the edges of the triangle, meeting at the point of the centerline.

[Hendrik]

The problem is the word 拍(Pak) that "after contact, your hand will no longer connect with your opponent's arm". You will have no control where your opponent's arm will go after that. It's like your opponent comes in to you, instead of give him a hug, you push him away. It violates the TCMA "粘(Nian) - sticky" principle.

Instead of using horizontal force vector to deflect your opponent's straight punch with a 90 degree contact, it will be better to use a 30 to 45 dgreee force vector to deflect your opponent's punch. There are 2 advantages by using this approach:

- you will have more time to connect your hand on your opponent's arm. This will provide you with more Tinjing.
- you give your opponent less chance to borrow your force to change his striking path.

In TCMA, it's called "挂(Gua) - comb the hair".



You know Chinese, so may be you could translate for every one here on what is a Pak.

take it as it is instead of making lots of different intepretation /drag into the confusion land and screw everyone up on what is it not.

For me things has evolve from a brush is a hammer and it is a long noise clamp too..



拍字诀 有单手拍与双手拍的区别，还可用单掌拍对方的头、背心、肘尖、腿等处。

拍字诀的作用，一是消劲，用单掌一拍即可消对方之劲。另一种作用是对方的力用出来了，，即可以 借力消劲。

[Violent Designs]

The problem is the word 拍(Pak) that "after contact, your hand will no longer connect with your opponent's arm". You will have no control where your opponent's arm will go after that. It's like your opponent comes in to you, instead of give him a hug, you push him away. It violates the TCMA "粘(Nian) - sticky" principle.

Instead of using horizontal force vector to deflect your opponent's straight punch with a 90 degree contact, it will be better to use a 30 to 45 dgreee force vector to deflect your opponent's punch. There are 2 advantages by using this approach:

- you will have more time to connect your hand on your opponent's arm. This will provide you with more Tinjing.
- you give your opponent less chance to borrow your force to change his striking path.

In TCMA, it's called "挂(Gua) - comb the hair".

In both Buk Sing and boxing/Muaythai, the "pak sao" is simply to deflect or parry your opponent's strikes.

Use it mostly against straight punches. Against hooks it is better to use chuen sao or just cover (flower behind hair in MT) or elbow spike.

My 2 cents.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Violent Designs;1074184]In both Buk Sing and boxing/Muaythai, the "pak sao" is simply to deflect or parry your opponent's strikes.

Use it mostly against straight punches. Against hooks it is better to use chuen sao or just cover (flower behind hair in MT) or elbow spike.
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Threads have a way of going off in different directions. I like to stick as close as possible to the original thrust of the thread based on John's kind sharing. I like dealing with operational meanings not just language
(a note to Hendrik). Operationally pak is not just a technique-the energy for pak sao runs through the middle of the hand, controlled of course by the elbow. There are many applications of pak sao- it can defend, attack, break among other things.
For development- practicing the pak at the bridge can teach a person to control the others fist, elbow
or balance depending on wing chun skill development.
John's usage was against a straight punch-the pak controlling the bridge-sleeve area- would have been better. Against a hook- a kau sau could be more relevant. I am approaching from a wing chun POV on balance and lines of attack and defense.. not buk sing or mt.
In John's video- a double pak sao was also one of the possibilities.
I wish I had John's video capacity but I don't. Not much of a techie.(except in wing chun)
Cheers-

joy chaudhuri

[YouKnowWho]

You know Chinese, so may be you could translate for every one here on what is a Pak.

"拍(Pak) - slap" has no intention to "粘(Nian) - sticky" and "随(Sui) - follow". This will make "screw up your opponent's structure and balance" a little bit hard to achieve. Again, when you opponent comes to you, you should hug him instead of push him away.

[Hendrik]

"拍(Pak) - slap" has no intention to "粘(Nian) - sticky" and "随(Sui) - follow". This will make you hard to "screw up your opponent's structure and balance " a little bit hard to achieve.

It said clearly it is for Cancelling force so why cant we accept it is as it is?


Also, see my other thread on What the heck is these stuffs. if the structure, momentum...etc is not clearly understood, what is one doing?

How is Pak which is using to slap cancel the force vector screw up your opponent's structure? similar to can one slap at a door and screw up the building?

Speak about balance, balance means the balance of momentum, so as an example one can side slap or tap litely on the front wheel of a in coming bicycle and cause the bicycle out of control and fall. by using its own momentum to screw up itself.

For me, one needs to know what one is doing.

Wants to break a structure, you need a hammer. ...
Want to cancel the force in a certain way, use pak sau.
want to totally screw up an incoming bicycle's momentum pak sau works too.


one just needs to know what one intended todo and use the proper tool.

and often, we dont want to break the structure when things already in motion, we just screw up the momentum in the most easi way. why bother to use the big hammer with the entire body behind it then using his own momentum to screw himself up? can pak da do that?

Sure, just pak away the incoming sharp high intensity momentum vectors so that one doesnt take the hit, and let the whole opponent structure crush into your punch which is waiting to make use of his momentum to break its own structure. just make sure you have a solid body structure to drive into his structure using his own momentum.

The Xing Yi called this Half step Peng Chuan beat the world. it is about using the incoming momentum to destroy its own structure.

[YouKnowWho]

It said clearly it is for Cancelling force so why cant we accept it is as it is?

I believe this thread is for Pak Sau "Alternatives". John did say, "I rather use other methods". That's why we are discussing what other alternatives are available here.

[Hendrik]

I believe this thread is for Pak Sau "Alternatives". John did say, "I rather use other methods". That's why we are discussing what other alternatives are available here.


sure, and how is one suppose to know what is the Pak Sau alternative without one is clear on what is a Pak sau and what is it do?

[YouKnowWho]

sure, and how is one suppose to know what is the Pak Sau alternative without one is clear on what is a Pak sau and what is it do?

Here is my definition of 拍(Pak),

"By using a slapping motion, your hand push your opponent's arm away. Your hand and your opponent's arm are no longer connected after that".

What will be yours?

[YungChun]

Here is my definition of 拍(Pak),

"By using a slapping motion, your hand push your opponent's arm away. Your hand and your opponent's arm are no longer connected after that".

What will be yours?

Does your pak take anything away from the opponent?

What might your hand do after pak?

What might the other hand do while you pak and after?

Is pak most reliably used with pre-contact or to make contact?

[YouKnowWho]

Does your pak take anything away from the opponent?

What might your hand do after pak?

What might the other hand do while you pak and after?
Here are 3 A's for your 3 Q's:

- I will use Pak to connect my hand on my opponent's elbow joint (build an arm bridge). I then push his leading arm across his body to jam his back arm (this will disable his back arm). Since my opponent's arms are no long a threaten to me at that moment, I can attack.
- If my opponent resists my arm pushing, I'll borrow his force and pull his arm toward me, and
- Use my other arm and legs to do whatever that I plan to do (with that "leading arm control", there will be endless moves that I can do).


Is pak most reliably used with pre-contact or to make contact?
I will use Tan Sau for pre-contact on my opponent's fore-arm, and Pak Sau to make contact on his elbow joint. The elbow joint control (made by my Pak Sau) is what I'm truly looking for. The fore-arm contact point (made by my Tan Sau) will have less value to me. If I can control my opponent's elbow joint, I have controled his whole arm.

[GlennR]

It said clearly it is for Cancelling force so why cant we accept it is as it is?


Also, see my other thread on What the heck is these stuffs. if the structure, momentum...etc is not clearly understood, what is one doing?

How is Pak which is using to slap cancel the force vector screw up your opponent's structure? similar to can one slap at a door and screw up the building?

Speak about balance, balance means the balance of momentum, so as an example one can side slap or tap litely on the front wheel of a in coming bicycle and cause the bicycle out of control and fall. by using its own momentum to screw up itself.

For me, one needs to know what one is doing.

Wants to break a structure, you need a hammer. ...
Want to cancel the force in a certain way, use pak sau.
want to totally screw up an incoming bicycle's momentum pak sau works too.


one just needs to know what one intended todo and use the proper tool.

and often, we dont want to break the structure when things already in motion, we just screw up the momentum in the most easi way. why bother to use the big hammer with the entire body behind it then using his own momentum to screw himself up? can pak da do that?

Sure, just pak away the incoming sharp high intensity momentum vectors so that one doesnt take the hit, and let the whole opponent structure crush into your punch which is waiting to make use of his momentum to break its own structure. just make sure you have a solid body structure to drive into his structure using his own momentum.

The Xing Yi called this Half step Peng Chuan beat the world. it is about using the incoming momentum to destroy its own structure.

And what if he doesnt have this "momuntum " coming in???
Or what if he is on the retreat and you want to take the fight to him, and he's firing of punches as he's moving backwards??

Are you saying pak is not applicable?

[Violent Designs]

Does your pak take anything away from the opponent?

What might your hand do after pak?

What might the other hand do while you pak and after?

Is pak most reliably used with pre-contact or to make contact?

Are we only discussing WC perspective, or WC version of "pak sao?"

If so then I will not derail the thread.

[YouKnowWho]

Are we only discussing WC perspective, or WC version of "pak sao?"

If so then I will not derail the thread.
The pak sao is a general TCMA move. It exists in many TCMA styles such as:

- Taiji (step out, deflect, grab, and punch),
- Mantis (Beng Bu 1st move),
- Longfist (Tantui open move),
- Baji (groin protection posture),
- White Ape (Wu Song Yuan Yan Tui),
- SC (form #1 single Gou Gua),
- ...

[GlennR]

The pak sao is a general TCMA move. It exists in many TCMA styles such as:

- Taiji (step out, deflect, grab, and punch).
- Mantis (Beng Bu 1st move).
- Longfist (Tantui open move).
- SC (1st form single Gou Gua).
- ...

Id say the Pak is a general move in all styles.... western or eastern

[Violent Designs]

Id say the Pak is a general move in all styles.... western or eastern

Agreed .

[YouKnowWho]

Agreed .
+1

We can also see Pak is used at the following MT clip (blocking techniques at 45.50).

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjEzMDg0NjA0.html

IMO, it' more fun to look at this "principle" at the global view instead of just the local view.

[LoneTiger108]

Here is my definition of 拍(Pak),

"By using a slapping motion, your hand push your opponent's arm away. Your hand and your opponent's arm are no longer connected after that".

What will be yours?

I could roll with that explanation, although I wouldn't use the word "push" because that imho is not what paksau is doing. Normally, daapsau follows paksau, maintaining that stickiness we all love about Wing Chun, but its not always needed imo.

Paksau is delivering a "short sharp shock" to anything it meets.

The follow-up is down to you and your intention, but basically the force of the slap should be directed to cause body misalignment, not just slapping attacks away. Once drilled correctly the paksau will cause clotting/bruising (especially on the inside/softer parts of the body) and the shock is normally enough for you to continue how you please.

I think many schools teach this at the very beginning as an interaction between forearm and palm, fistwork against paksau. A good start point and exercise to gently condition the forearm for the puncher and the palm for the pak-er!

[Vajramusti]

The pak sao is a general TCMA move. It exists in many TCMA styles such as:

- Taiji (step out, deflect, grab, and punch),
- Mantis (Beng Bu 1st move),
- Longfist (Tantui open move),
- Baji (groin protection posture),
- White Ape (Wu Song Yuan Yan Tui),
- SC (form #1 single Gou Gua),
- ...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What's the point--- everyone has palms. The devil is in the details.
The details of wing chun's structural development and dynamics is different from
taiji, mantis etc.

Generalizing about TCMA is not enough to understand wing chun IMO.

Joy Chaudhuri

[CFT]

Instead of using horizontal force vector to deflect your opponent's straight punch with a 90 degree contact, it will be better to use a 30 to 45 dgreee force vector to deflect your opponent's punch. There are 2 advantages by using this approach:

- you will have more time to connect your hand on your opponent's arm. This will provide you with more Tinjing.
- you give your opponent less chance to borrow your force to change his striking path.I'm pretty sure no-one is proposing that the pak comes in at 90-degrees to the opponent - i.e. coming across the body. If the pak is fired towards the opponent's centre I would think that it would comfortably be 30-45 degrees to the line "connecting" both bodies.


I will use Tan Sau for pre-contact on my opponent's fore-arm, and Pak Sau to make contact on his elbow joint. The elbow joint control (made by my Pak Sau) is what I'm truly looking for. The fore-arm contact point (made by my Tan Sau) will have less value to me. If I can control my opponent's elbow joint, I have controled his whole arm.Sounds a lot like what Alan Orr demonstrates on his youtube pak sau video. Though he doesn't use tan sau for pre-contact.

[YouKnowWho]

Generalizing about TCMA is not enough to understand wing chun IMO.

Generalizing can help us to understand MA (Chinese or foreign) in general. The day that christian respect other religions (or the other way around), the day that our world will be a much more peaceful place to live. That's why I prefer to see the similiarity than the difference.

If our interest is "combat", style should not be our boundary IMO. :)

[Vajramusti]

If our interest is "combat", style should not be our boundary IMO. :)

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Combat style?????? You bring yourself to combat.

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

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Combat style?????? You bring yourself to combat.

joy chaudhuri

I believe he said "...combat, style.."

[Vajramusti]

I believe he said "...combat, style.."
-----------------------------------------------------------
GlennR-Sorry,you are right-there is a comma after combat.

Revised- there is not just one style for combat. My preference is wing chun and this is a wing chun forum.There are many ways to engage in combat. You pick your poison.

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

-----------------------------------------------------------
GlennR-Sorry,you are right-there is a comma after combat.

Revised- there is not just one style for combat. My preference is wing chun and this is a wing chun forum.There are many ways to engage in combat. You pick your poison.

joy chaudhuri

No problem Joy.

But il disagree with you to a degree with "There are many ways to engage in combat. You pick your poison."
Your opponent doesnt always let this be the case.
GlennR

[Vajramusti]

No problem Joy.

But il disagree with you to a degree with "There are many ways to engage in combat. You pick your poison."
Your opponent doesnt always let this be the case.
GlennR
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok to disagree.

Your opponent may show you how to fight- that is also part of wing chun agenda. IMO

joy chaudhuri

[YouKnowWho]

wing chun agenda.

Just to be clear that WC is one of my "cross training" styles. Sometime I may look at thing from different angle than just from the WC angle. Still I prefer to compare the "similiarity" than the "difference".