so what the heck is all these stuffs ?

[Hendrik]

OK,

So the following are the definition for your questions. so I answer here once for everyone.


1, momentum generation/handling

Momentum has 3 phases, like it or not.

phase A, the "kick off", phase B, the "speed up/down", phase C, the transfer.


To make things easy for you to understand,

Make believe you sit on a barber rotation chair. with both of your hand holding a bar bell.

Phase A means some one or some how you need to "kick off" or give a push to the barber chair for it to spin.

Phase B means if you extended out your arm or you pull in your arm, your spinning speed is going to change. spin faster if you pull in your arm. Spin slower if you extended out your arm.

Phase C means at some point you need to stop and how you would like to stop. one could decide it is a collision, transfer, or dissipate. as for the Hino Akira case, the usual karate punch is a collision, the Hino punch is a transfer in general. penetration strike is mostly a transfer with shock. IMHO.



So, there are different ways to do a kick off. and there are different ways to speed up or slow down. and there are different way you can transfer your momentum. no matter what you do, you need all the three phases.






2, Now, so what is a body structure?

Static Body structure is use to focus or de focus the intensity of the momentum or force vectors. for example a triangle shape or a round shape strucute.

So, at the Phase 1 or the kick off phase of the momentum generation with a triangle shape you will have a momentum which has a high intensity at a certain direction or sharp area.


Dynamic body structure is a structure which do not remain the same as the begining static body structure for different reason : IE: as in the barber chair, one start with both arm extended outward, and after the kick off, one pull both arms in. that speed up the turn. That ability to change of structure from extended arms to pull in arms is a dynamic structure. Snake engine training is needed to do these sort of things.


But notice, body structure IS not momentum. it can influence momentum but not momentum.

Momentum is always gornvent by mass and speed. you always need that "kick off" and know how you want to "transfer" and how to " speed up or down" the Body structure static or dynamic is helping you but not the master of the momentum generation.





Gary Lam's 3 type can be view as, Type 1 is a phase A centric type. Type 2 is a phase B centric type. Type 3 is the phase C centric type. Centric meaning focus more in the particular phase but still need to takes care of all three phases.

what I can tell you is that the WCK fast jin is a" transfer centric' with kick off and speed up almost in the same time in parallel. instead of the type 1 and type 2 which are operating in a sequence of phase A, phase B, and phase C.


When I ask on momentum generation on speed up. What I am asking them is so tell me how do you do the kick off? how do you speed up? those are the keys in the first two phases. just dont tell me the body structure can move without the kick off ...etc. without moving there is no momentum.

So, why is the six directional force vectors is important? because it give one a way to handle the momentum in all the three phases.



all of the above is a big part of TCMA IMA in our today's language in physics. So in the ancient time, Dong Jin or Knowing the force vectors as one can read in the Taiji classical and other IMA classics are in a big part what is describe above.


There is nothing magic however one needs to know the details and know how to handle them.


Again, I always encourage everyone to ATTAIN the state and then describe them instead of keep translate or inteplating this or that Kuen kuit and making things even more fuzzy. like the Pak sau case. it is like inteprating a Brush as a hammer. that is ridiculus.



Also, one needs to be clear, what do one want?

break the structure ? handling the momentum? cancel the force vectors? those are different stuffs.

[shawchemical]

You don't make things clearer with poor terms and definitions like this. You are trying to describe simple Newtonian physics with backwards and confused descriptions.

The principle of inertia, that a body at rest will stay at rest until some force acts upon it, is all that needs to be dealt with. Like it or not, this principle means that your description of momentum is not only wrong, but painfully inadequate.

It would help you if you had a simple understanding of the real science behind the things you talk about, not some ethereal nonsense about Qi and six directional force vectors.

"Momentum is always gornvent by mass and speed. you always need that "kick off" and know how you want to "transfer" and how to " speed up or down" the Body structure static or dynamic is helping you but not the master of the momentum generation."

This one is the WORST. Momentum IS speed, it is governed by inertia, (a function of the mass of the body) and acceleration (the force acting upon the body) with a token mention to friction.

[Hendrik]

You opinion is great.
So, you could describe or explain things as you like.
I am not giving a physics lecture
here but to expose others to mechanics in martial art as simple as possible.






It would help you if you had a simple understanding of the real science behind the things you talk about, not some ethereal nonsense about Qi and six directional force vectors....

This one is the WORST.



1, What is real or worst.....etc is your opinion, as for Qi and six directional force vectors, you dont know what are them so it is more wise to not comment on what you dont know.



2, P= mv, either you like it or not.

momentum (pl. momenta; SI unit kg·m/s, or, equivalently, N·s) is the product of the mass and velocity of an object (p = mv). is the definition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Momentum

you could add the intertia condition term to make it a complete solution but P =mV still govern.




if You like to make it more formal which consist of the inertial term, steady state term, and the after transfer term that is fine with me.

However, The three phase or three terms which describe the basic phenomenon are completely covered in my post above.



so, there is no point to trying to pick things a part just because you like to present it in a different way. not to mention, one needs to follow the definition of momentum.







Momentum IS speed,
it is governed by inertia,
(a function of the mass of the body) and acceleration (the force acting upon the body) with a token mention to friction.


Momentum is NOT only Speed as you put it above; P= mv = mass * speed,

And you are wrong by definition as in the above.



What you are trying to describe is the phase A + B in my previous post.

and,
Instead of getting into math and getting into all the arguement which is wasting time;

the phenomenon is all describe in the three phase of barber chair example.



The true questions is:

so how do one apply the understanding of momentum into the 3 Type of Gary's article?

and how do one handle the 3 phases in real action?




Finally, I have never said I am perfect , and I always welcome and appreciate to make things better where I can always learn more for anything which is valid.

[Niersun]

so how do you do Type 3 of Gary's article?

Are you referring to that article by Gary Lam, where he attempts to make you think that the Wing Chun punch is superior to all other punches??? Didnt you already create a thread for that???

Dont get lost chasing secrets.

A punch is just that, a punch mate.

Anyhow LAM Sifu stated that the number 3, you move your fist and then your body second right? Yeah, try that on a heavy bag and you will see that it just doesnt work. I mean, where is that power.

Power in striking comes from the ground. Its in your stance. Push off the ground and generate the power.

Go hit the heavy bag and do some pad work.

[Hendrik]

Are you referring to that article by Gary Lam, where he attempts to make you think that the Wing Chun punch is superior to all other punches???

I dont think he attempts to make you think that the Wing Chun punch is superior. but he is describing different ways of momentum generation and what is Wing Chun is using.




Didnt you already create a thread for that???


This thread is to clear up what is momentum and body structure questions which are posted to me.

and what is the details in momentum handling. as present in the most simple layman way as in the three phase of the barber chair example. however one do it, one has to do the 3 phases.





Dont get lost chasing secrets.

A punch is just that, a punch mate.

Anyhow LAM Sifu stated that the number 3, you move your fist and then your body second right? Yeah, try that on a heavy bag and you will see that it just doesnt work. I mean, where is that power.

Power in striking comes from the ground. Its in your stance. Push off the ground and generate the power.

Go hit the heavy bag and do some pad work.



that is your opinion based on your experience. and it is certainly valid. however, there are more stuffs which go beyond your experience above.

also, just because you cannot make what Gary describe work doesnt mean you are right. Again, the reason why I bring up the momentum issue here. one needs to satisfied the 3 phases to make things work. and how is a clever way to do it if possible?

hit the heavy bag and do pad work is great, however, the different between a good and a bad striker is much more then hit heavy bag and do pad work. that is forsure. There are lots of room for investigation.

[Niersun]

that is your opinion based on your experience. and it is certainly valid. however, there are more stuffs which go beyond your experience above.

also, just because you cannot make what Gary describe work doesnt mean you are right. Again, the reason why I bring up the momentum issue here. one needs to satisfied the 3 phases to make things work. and how is a clever way to do it if possible?

True that is just based on my opinion.

But if you look closer, you will that the elbow moves first, not the fist (tricep muscles). Secondly, in a fight your moving, your constantly transfering your weight before striking, so unless your opponent is a wooden dummy, it is basically irrelavant.

My opinion is its just a myth and that this myth is busted.

[YouKnowWho]

how do you do the kick off?

Just borrow your opponent's force. You pull your opponent, when he resists, you borrow his resistence force and then "move in". When you pull your opponent, there will be 2 outcomes. If you are stronger than your opponent, you will pull him into you. If your opponent is stronger than you, you will pull yourself into him. In either cases, the end result will be the same, the distance between you and your opponent will be reduced. You can borrow the "counter force" to "kick off" your "momentum".

[Niersun]

Just borrow your opponent's force. You pull your opponent, when he resists, you borrow his resistence force and then "move in". When you pull your opponent, there will be 2 outcomes. If you are stronger than your opponent, you will pull him into you. If your opponent is stronger than you, you will pull yourself into him. In either cases, the end result will be the same, the distance between you and your opponent will be reduced. You can borrow the "counter force" to "kick off" your "momentum".

In my opinion, if i ever get the opportunity, i would never pull my opponent into me as you are still attached.

In TWC we pull our opponent through their own centreline to take their balance and there is no need for this category 3 type of exploding punch that Lam Sifu describes as you could take your opponents feet from under him.

[sihing]

In my opinion, if i ever get the opportunity, i would never pull my opponent into me as you are still attached.

In TWC we pull our opponent through their own centreline to take their balance and there is no need for this category 3 type of exploding punch that Lam Sifu describes as you could take your opponents feet from under him.

You do TWC (William Cheung version?), so it's no wonder you don't know what Gary Lam is talking about or regard it as not needed. Sorry I couldn't help myself:eek:

After practicing/teaching TWC for almost 2 decades, my eyes were opened when I met Gary in person, just sayin:)

Good luck in your training.

James

[sanjuro_ronin]

Archie Moore knocked out over 130 people, verifiable and recorded.
Something tells me he probably had a pretty good punch.

[Hendrik]

True that is just based on my opinion.

But if you look closer, you will that the elbow moves first, not the fist (tricep muscles). Secondly, in a fight your moving, your constantly transfering your weight before striking, so unless your opponent is a wooden dummy, it is basically irrelavant.

My opinion is its just a myth and that this myth is busted.

1, dont get me wrong, as I post in the previous post that it is valid.

2, what you describe above is perfect. and for me that is where the fun start. What is the possibilities there and how is it possible under the law of physics.

[Hendrik]

Just borrow your opponent's force. You pull your opponent, when he resists, you borrow his resistence force and then "move in". When you pull your opponent, there will be 2 outcomes. If you are stronger than your opponent, you will pull him into you. If your opponent is stronger than you, you will pull yourself into him. In either cases, the end result will be the same, the distance between you and your opponent will be reduced. You can borrow the "counter force" to "kick off" your "momentum".



Good. Keep the ideas flowing.... there are many ways to do things.

[Hendrik]

You do TWC (William Cheung version?), so it's no wonder you don't know what Gary Lam is talking about or regard it as not needed. Sorry I couldn't help myself:eek:

After practicing/teaching TWC for almost 2 decades, my eyes were opened when I met Gary in person, just sayin:)

Good luck in your training.

James


Amazing isnt it?


In my understanding, Hawkin has lots of indepth understanding of the stuffs above, and thus, Gary and Robert who are closed to Hawkin must have also expose to lots of indepth/ internal WCK stuffs which not many has seen. accompany with a great master magic happening.

A punch indeed is not just a punch.


I brought up the momentum and body structure here in brief is just to hope WCner can catagorized things in details clearer so that indepth stuff could be synthesis.
So we know, what is a body structure, what is momentum, and what is the key elements needed to be aware of in momentum handling.
This is just a begining, and we cant get stuck only on what we know now and thinking that's all.

[Niersun]

You do TWC (William Cheung version?), so it's no wonder you don't know what Gary Lam is talking about or regard it as not needed. Sorry I couldn't help myself:eek:

After practicing/teaching TWC for almost 2 decades, my eyes were opened when I met Gary in person, just sayin:)

Good luck in your training.

James

Im assuming, you prefer to fight centreline to centreline and keep on the pressure.

You know, they used to say that this method was so that the smaller person could dissipate the bigger persons force and match their force with our short range strikes. But i found against a much larger opponent that knew Wing Chun, i couldnt defeat them. Not using that particular method.

Im guessing your not that small frame of a person and that you got some size/weight behind you.

The methods taught at Non TWC schools are universal (contained in TWC too), unfortunately they are not regularly emphasized in TWC schools, instead methods that are uniquely different are emphasized to distiguish our differences which in turn seperates us instead, which is a shame.

[sihing]

Im assuming, you prefer to fight centreline to centreline and keep on the pressure.
Actually allot of the method I practice now is about taking the facing away from your opponent (my centerline on his, his away from mine), which is the same as TWC's blindside theory, except I don't have to "run" around the person to acheive this.

You know, they used to say that this method was so that the smaller person could dissipate the bigger persons force and match their force with our short range strikes. But i found against a much larger opponent that knew Wing Chun, i couldnt defeat them. Not using that particular method.
Of course, if a small person is dealing with a bigger person with the same skills, the small guy is in for some trouble. It's always about your skills vs your opponents, if his are better your in trouble. I'd give you the secret to how smaller person can use VT against a larger person, but since I was never
"given" anything but rather had to learn it thru experience, I won't:)
Im guessing your not that small frame of a person and that you got some size/weight behind you.
I'm 6'1", around 190lbs.
The methods taught at Non TWC schools are universal (contained in TWC too), unfortunately they are not regularly emphasized in TWC schools, instead methods that are uniquely different are emphasized to distiguish our differences which in turn seperates us instead, which is a shame.
lol...sorry for laughing, but I sometimes can't control myself...My experience in TWC is different, my old instructor claimed to have learned WSL method, but after actually learning it, I found that was not so. Glad to hear that TWC contains the "entire" curriculum that some of us are lacking, that's news to me. Maybe William will release a new series of DVD's explaining this "universality", I would be curious to see his take on this "modified" stuff":):eek:


Peace,

James

[anerlich]

CSP, interesting stuff.

James, are you trying to become the new Terence?

[GlennR]

CSP, interesting stuff.

James, are you trying to become the new Terence?

Yeh, cool post CSP

And if James is the new T i want to be the new Vic.

I demand a video James!!!!!! ;)

[Vajramusti]

Archie Moore knocked out over 130 people, verifiable and recorded.
Something tells me he probably had a pretty good punch.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul- Archie Moore in his time was simply amazing. And the number of fights that he had- he went through hell in his early years in order to get recognized.
He was a light heavy for the second part of his career as he moved up through the ranks. Nowadays there are champs with only 30 fights!!

Marciano was a heavy weight on the light side but he really had thunder in both hands.
Even though Archie was nearing the twilight of his career he still knocked Marciano down before
getting knocked out himself.

One quote of his that I always liked- a wing chun bias on my part- was when speaking of boxing hands- he once said- there is geometry in those hands. His moving hand formations always had dynamic geometry. For cutting weight among other things he chewed on steaks without eating them
in one stage of his training.

George Plimpton was a very good writer- he put on football pads with the Detroit Lions in order to write Paper Lions.. and he put on gloves (with Archie Moore and others) to write Shadow Box.
When Archie just jabbed and brought blood out of his nose and tears in his eyes- he called it the sympathetic response.His sketch of Max Baer another heavy hitter is also superb.

When Plimpton asked Baer- why and how he turned so ferocious in the ring while outside he wasa gentle guy- Baer;s response was--- the other fella is hitting me ain't he?

But Max- he asked- why do you go over and hug your opponent at the end and even help them up- Baer's answer- the other fella quit hitting me didn't he?

joy chaudhuri

[Hendrik]

Hi Hendrik, Hope you're well.


Long time didnt see you. I am ok thanks and happy new year.

Thanks and appreciate for your contribution, so others have a second view on what their training might lead them into. that is a big deal for me because body well being is more then anything.

dual-level gait mechanics is my type of training too.

[Niersun]

lol...sorry for laughing, but I sometimes can't control myself...My experience in TWC is different, my old instructor claimed to have learned WSL method, but after actually learning it, I found that was not so. Glad to hear that TWC contains the "entire" curriculum that some of us are lacking, that's news to me. Maybe William will release a new series of DVD's explaining this "universality", I would be curious to see his take on this "modified" stuff

Sorry James, i think im turning into Terence and over marketing.

What i was trying to say is that fighting strategies in all WCK can be used by any lineage and isnt limited to a particular lineage as we are pretty much the same elsewhere.

E.g. Rarely is face to face strategy taught in TWC but i have a tendancy to do this when facing smaller opponents than myself, because i know i tend to be good at this when facing a smaller opponent.

[sanjuro_ronin]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul- Archie Moore in his time was simply amazing. And the number of fights that he had- he went through hell in his early years in order to get recognized.
He was a light heavy for the second part of his career as he moved up through the ranks. Nowadays there are champs with only 30 fights!!

Marciano was a heavy weight on the light side but he really had thunder in both hands.
Even though Archie was nearing the twilight of his career he still knocked Marciano down before
getting knocked out himself.

One quote of his that I always liked- a wing chun bias on my part- was when speaking of boxing hands- he once said- there is geometry in those hands. His moving hand formations always had dynamic geometry. For cutting weight among other things he chewed on steaks without eating them
in one stage of his training.

George Plimpton was a very good writer- he put on football pads with the Detroit Lions in order to write Paper Lions.. and he put on gloves (with Archie Moore and others) to write Shadow Box.
When Archie just jabbed and brought blood out of his nose and tears in his eyes- he called it the sympathetic response.His sketch of Max Baer another heavy hitter is also superb.

When Plimpton asked Baer- why and how he turned so ferocious in the ring while outside he wasa gentle guy- Baer;s response was--- the other fella is hitting me ain't he?

But Max- he asked- why do you go over and hug your opponent at the end and even help them up- Baer's answer- the other fella quit hitting me didn't he?

joy chaudhuri

Great Post Joy !

[anerlich]

These two methods of movement are known as the "stabilized gait" and the "dual-level gait." Both types are found in adult populations around the world.


While you can always take practical application of any of these sort of ideas to MA too far, it seems to me on consideration that SLT (except for the final, "hand-wiping" section) is working stabilized gait mechanics, CK predominantly has dual level mechanics (though far from exclusively) and BJ has a mixture.

Also (somewhat simplistically), Xingyi is predominantly stabilized and BaGua dual level.

Thoughts?

[chusauli]

Nice! A modern way of talking about "structure" and "no structure" or "Hands leads body" or "Body leads hands"!

[kung fu fighter]

The first 2 sections of my SLT are stabilized, the 3rd section is dual-level.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA&feature=related

Hi,
what exactly do you mean by stabilized and dual-level motion?

and which one is the old 94 year old guy doing in the clip above?


Nice! A modern way of talking about "structure" and "no structure" or "Hands leads body" or "Body leads hands"!

Hi Robert,
Can you give some examples of the way how you apply no structure (Hands lead the Body) as well as the mechanics involved?

[chusauli]

Hi Robert,
Can you give some examples of the way how you apply no structure (Hands lead the Body) as well as the mechanics involved?

Sure, you've heard it all along:

"Stand like this. Punch like this. Don't move your body, just extend your arm like this!"

There are no mechanics to discuss. Stand like a statue, punch like a robot.

Applying it is like this:

"If you're lucky, someone will run into your punch like this, and you will knock them out! But usually you do them in three's!"

"just shift like this! Extend your Tan Da like this! Then do 3 punches in succession!"

"Run to his blindside when he jabs, then throw ruffle punches."

Or:

"In order to punch harder, you should do hundreds of push ups and bench presses!"

LOL!

Can you tell me what you think is different?

[Hendrik]

Thanks for the comments, guys. Hendrik, just to make sure we're on the same page, a stabilized gait does not create back problems either. Rather, it is adopted by people with back pain as a way to manage the pain and let their back heal. With good physio, they should be able to perform dual level movements again.

I agree that careless weightlifting is just asking for trouble! :eek:





Excellent! Keep the ideas to continuous flow.