Help with my horse stance

[Rydis]

yeah, ive searched and seen this topic discussed to death lol. But I can't really seem to find out what I might be doing wrong.

I can't help but lean forward when I go down into the stance. If I try to correct my back to be straight..I just fall backwards. Just bending my knees a little makes my back go forward to compensate (and I dont have any kind of medical or back problems.)

I have tried using the wall trick, but I dont think it really helps. As the only pain I get this way is in my ankles. If I point my toes out about 20º then I can feel it in the legs, but feet straight forward..I only feel it in my ankles. My knees are a left of my feed a bit (not all the way I can see my first 2 toes if I look down) and my knees are not forward past my toes.

If I go down just say about 40% of a full parallel stance, I can hold this position with my back almost straight..but as I try to make it compeltely straight and have my head and pull my arms to my waist, I can feel myself falling backwards to the balls of my feet and its hard to keep balance.

I have looked at pretty much every discussion and video and article about it, but can't really find why I would find myself falling backwards. Trying to roll my hips under/forward just makes me lean forward more. I have only taken 2 classes so far in Mi Zhong and Wu Shu, but I wanted to practice to strength as much as I could.

I can use the wall and hold myself for about 2 minutes before my legs shake uncontrollably. I also notice that when I lean agaisnt the wall, I have to push my knees out alot more then usual to keep them from going in front of the feet, which I think is because of the stance against the wall vs just sitting. Ive spent all weekend trying and I just can't seem to figure it out.

[wenshu]

I had the same problem. Our mabu is relatively narrow; feet 2&1/2- 3 steps apart. Almost impossible to point the feet forward without leaning forward.

At first I thought it was a lack of flexibility that forced me to lean forwards, but I found that it is actually a strength issue. Leaning forward during horse stance recruits different muscles.

When doing static practice allow the feet to point outwards at first until you develop the strength and flexibility to maintain proper posture with the feet pointing forwards.
http://shaolin.org.cn/upload/fckeditor/2010-05-26_161739.jpg

Even if your feet look like this at first, I think it is better to stress a straight back.
http://shaolin.org.cn/upload/fckeditor/2010-05-26_161847.jpg

Also, try not to let the hips fall below the knees, it is kind of cheating. You won't be able to maintain the same amount of work at first but you will see faster progress if you stress a strictly parallel stance with the back completely straight.

Just remember to point the feet forwards during taolu.

You can also try practicing mabu on the balls of your feet, maybe elevated on posts.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

go to youtube and do some searches for hip mobility and ankle mobility drills. im drunk now, but if i remember tomorrow, ill link you to some by diesel crew that i highly recommend.

i began using these to correct lower back rounding in the bottom of the squat, but what you are describing seem like different symptoms for the same problem.

[RenDaHai]

Ma bu takes years!

For one start with the buttocks 'up', which results in the hips tilted up and back slightly.

For two, do this technique in front of an incline bench or say, your bed. So you are facing away from the bed. Then hold ma bu and fall back onto the bed, then sit up again. Repeat and gradually slow it down. This can develop holding the back straight.... every time you fall over you just do a sit up.

For three in order to hold this with the back straight, really straight, everything needs to be perfect. You need your toes to grip the floor really strong. (A very typical northern ma bu is small and the feet point inwards slightly, while the knees push out. Also the feet tilt inwards a little facilitating grip. Requires great hip flexibility so the stress is not on the knees). To make the toes strong enough to hold this stance I suggest getting the chinese 'worry balls' (those jade balls that people whirl in their hands). Take your shoes and socks off, then while say watching tv, pick the balls up with your feet and rotate ankles.

COmbine these elements and you could improve ma bu.... but its still takes a long time.

[Rydis]

ill try these, thanks for the input!

[bawang]

it sounds like you physically cannot put your feet forward in horse stance. thats perfectly normal i cant do it either. its a awkward position. dont force yourself

[Rydis]

I can, it just strains the ankles. It feels like all the wait is pushed on the ankles, and as I grip the ground, you can feel the pressure of wanting to be pushed outwards. However, not sure if its related or not to trying to keep back straight or not. Ill keep at it and see if strengthing a little going about it the improper way will help get to the proper way..or so it seems? Right now I am just trying to get as far as I can downwards while keeping back straight and not falling backwards.

[bawang]

i have the same feeling. if it doesnt feel confortable dont do it. the degrees of the feet dont matter at all bro.

about ur trying to balance, r u strong? do u excercise?

[Rydis]

I would consider myself above average for my weight. However, I never worked too much on my legs..mainly upper boddy and abs. I do stand and walk alot at work..however thats about the extent. So yeah..it strains my legs alot for a bit.

[bawang]

i recommend u do some barbel squats. it makes horse stance easier.

[mickey]

Hello Rydis,

You situation reads like you have tight psoas muscles. Here is some info on it:

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Psoas-Muscles-and-Abdominal-Exercises-For-Back-Pain&id=102447

http://stronglifts.com/the-psoas-is-it-killing-your-back/


Here are some youtube search results for psoas stretching methods:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=psoas+stretch&aq=1

I hope you find this info useful.

To your improvement,

mickey

[Rydis]

Hello Rydis,

You situation reads like you have tight psoas muscles. Here is some info on it:

http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Psoas-Muscles-and-Abdominal-Exercises-For-Back-Pain&id=102447

http://stronglifts.com/the-psoas-is-it-killing-your-back/


Here are some youtube search results for psoas stretching methods:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=psoas+stretch&aq=1

I hope you find this info useful.

To your improvement,

mickey

so if I understand this correctly, it could be related to say..to many ab routines (sit ups, crunches, ect) and neglecting other parts? so that the now regular muscles overpower the less worked out ones and put into a unnatural position? Guess that makes since, thought I have no back pain what so ever.

[mickey]

Hi Rydis,

The funny thing about sit ups is that they can either help and hinder the psoas muscle's flexibility. Doing too many sit ups and leg raises can create the problem you have; yet, if the tightening is the result of too much sitting, sit ups, combined with stretching, can be used to relax the psoas muscle. I have experienced both extremes. There was a time when I was doing 200-400 sit ups a day during younger times. I have to level off because I developed this esophageal reflex action that would cause me to suddenly puke, like a gusher, in mid conversation. I had similar difficulty with the horse stance like you have. The only difference was that I was in a horse stance with my booty sticking out. I could give mandrills competition with my posture. The other extreme came as a result of excessive sitting in a job situation. The sit ups and psoas stretching pulled me back together.

I can only suggest that you try the exercises suggested and feel what is going on. If you notice tightness, then you should work on it. If not, try to explore other methods for relief. Even better, get professional assistance.



mickey

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i recommend u do some barbel squats. it makes horse stance easier.

i recommend squatting as a solution to every problem in life.

[wenshu]

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51C77C7AM2L.jpg

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

i have that book, and ive done that program a few times. i ended it last time at 225x20, but i believe im good for a little more than that now (though im fatter than i was then).

[IronFist]

i have that book, and ive done that program a few times. i ended it last time at 225x20, but i believe im good for a little more than that now (though im fatter than i was then).

225 x 20.

Geez.

How much did you weigh at the time? That's a huge squat. Any idea what your 1RM was?

Wait, aren't you training with Westside guys now?

[Lucas]

are you flexible enough to do the stance you are doing? sometimes people will practice right away with as low of a stance as their body can reach (sometimes they have to based on instruction) ive noticed sometimes that makes people so tense and taught that they can have problem keeping their balance. you can work through that by just trucking along until your body adapts to the practice. also if this is the case you may want to try doing a higher stance with the same stance form. find a point where you can keep your body somewhat relaxed. see if you still have balance issues when you are in a more comfortable and natural position.

so maybe that is not the case. how is your balance standing on one leg? how is your balance on one leg when you lower and raise yourself, doesnt have to be much, just a bit. how is your over all balance? when you stand regular and close your eyes do you fall over?

also, what happens when you have your instructor manually adjust your stance?