KO's and MORE KO's !!

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is what they have done, proven and recorded:
(Sugar) Ray Robinson 179 wins, 19 losses, 6 draws, 2 no contests, 109 KO
Julio Cesar Chavez - Won 104 Lost 5, 2 draws, 80 KO
Archie Moore - 181 wins, 24 losses, 9 draws and 1 no contest, 145 KO
(Big) George Foreman - Won 76 lost 5, 68 KO
Rocky Marciano - Won 49 Lost 0, 43 KO
Roberto Duran - 103 Wins, 16 Loss, 69 Knockouts
Buck Smith- he has a record of 179-20-2, 120 KOs.

Just a same list of fighters with over 40 ko's, from different eras.

All these KO's are recorded and have been verified so nothing is anecdotal or heresay or legend.

So I ask you, what have the fighters in your system of H2H done?

:p

[sanjuro_ronin]

MT perhaps:

Apidej Sit Hirun: 340 wins 1 draws 10 losses, known as 'The Champion of Seven Titles', the most fearful kicker that Muay Thai may ever have seen, he once broke his opponent's arm with his kick strike. His kick aresenal made him famous as he set a record by holding, at one time, seven welterweight titles of both Muay Thai and International boxing, a historic record that still stands. He is also known as The Man of 7 Titles and The Legendary Best Muaythai Kicker of the Century and The Best Muaythai Fighter of the Century, titles were awarded by the Authority King of Thailand.

Deiselnoi Chor Thanasukarn(Sky-Piercing Knee Kicker): The most feared fighter ever, His hand to hand combat skills remain unequalled. At the age of 19 Deisel Noi gained Light Weight title at Lumphini. Defending it for four years and abondioning it only for lack of adversaries.
Hardly anyone dared to challenge the champion Deisel Noi fearing severe and painful defeat. He enjoyed 50 (16 KOs in a row using his knees) consecutive wins and finished his career early as the result of his exceptional force.

Samart Payakaroon(The best of all): 170 Muay Thai wins, Muay thai world champion and two time world featherweight boxing champion

Ramon Dekker(Diamond): 175 wins (90 KOs) 26 losses, The best known European Muay thai fighter of all time

Coban Lookchaomaesaithong(Cruncher): 270 Fights Fought Dekkers a total of four times, Winning 2 and Lossing 2

[David Jamieson]

Neither, myself, my teacher or any of my classmates have ever used the style to sport fight.

What can I say? It was never advertised as a boxing club...

If sugar ray did traditional kung fu instead of boxing, I wonder what his KO count would be. lol

When there were comps available, if you KO'd someone, YOU would get disqualified.

That's the nature of traditional martial arts competitions. :p

However, I do have a juvenile boxing record.


Are you as interested in turning Kung Fu into a mere sport as well? lol :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Neither, myself, my teacher or any of my classmates have ever used the style to sport fight.

What can I say? It was never advertised as a boxing club...

If sugar ray did traditional kung fu instead of boxing, I wonder what his KO count would be. lol

When there were comps available, if you KO'd someone, YOU would get disqualified.

That's the nature of traditional martial arts competitions. :p

However, I do have a juvenile boxing record.


Are you as interested in turning Kung Fu into a mere sport as well? lol :p

I don't think that Kung fu can evolve to being a sport, it's just not good enough right now.
:p

I mean, boxing and MT has produced ALL these fighters with superb KO ability, some of them KO'ing over 100 people, and these are verifiable and recorded KO's not just heresay and anecodotes !!!

I don't know but I have a sneaky suspicion that these coaches and fighters may be on to something...

[David Jamieson]

I don't think that Kung fu can evolve to being a sport, it's just not good enough right now.
:p

I mean, boxing and MT has produced ALL these fighters with superb KO ability, some of them KO'ing over 100 people, and these are verifiable and recorded KO's not just heresay and anecodotes !!!

I don't know but I have a sneaky suspicion that these coaches and fighters may be on to something...

lol.

Boxing has no legs, no weapons and is sport with very refined rules.
Muay Thai has lost huge components of itself as a culturally definitive martial art and has become a sport.

I'm not in the "if it's a sport it's better" camp when it comes to martial arts.

I'm in the "why hasn't it evolved into firearms use" camp.

I could care less about carded fights and ufc or mt fighter of the week. It just doesn't hold my interest anymore.

Fighters and fighting is boring and all too forgettable these days.
I'm getting rid of that part more and more and getting more into the health and transformation aspect of martial arts.

Just not into fighting really. Can't find the point of it. Especially in context to sport. I mean...what is the point of sport fighting anyway?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Boxing has no legs, no weapons and is sport with very refined rules.
Muay Thai has lost huge components of itself as a culturally definitive martial art and has become a sport.

And yet, even with all those restrictions and a level playing field, you get all those KO's !
That must mean in a free for all like Kung fu there most be KO's all over the place !!
heck, there must be more KO's than used rubbers after the prom !

[David Jamieson]

And yet, even with all those restrictions and a level playing field, you get all those KO's !
That must mean in a free for all like Kung fu there most be KO's all over the place !!
heck, there must be more KO's than used rubbers after the prom !

KO's are fine. I mean, if you want to score one, there's a few ways to get one:

1) hit hard enough that the brain hits to skull inside

2) hit a sweet spot which will cause a nerve overload and then, KO.

3) stop the air to the brain

4) stop the blood to the brain

I don't think you need to be a specific type of martial artist to make a KO.
Boxing has been around for a long time. In the rule set, you are simply going to have a lot of KO's because it counts as a win and so, people go for them by head hunting and hitting at the head until the 2 things above get realized.

There's many KO's with these because they've been organized sports for a long time.

there is no such thing for Chinese martial arts except for old time Lei Tai and now the advent of sanda/san shou which, I'm pretty sure there are lot's of KO's happening in.

But, I doubt san shou will get any association with the greater body of Kung Fu styles in the wider world of ufc fans. People will see it as the one that doesn't have ground fighting in it...lol

Kung Fu is a big cluster hump for a lot of reasons.

Frankly, I"m ok with it. It is what it is. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think you may be missing the point of the thread David.
These are actual, recorded, verifiable KO's.
Archie Moore KO'd more than 140 people, no scratch that, 140 FIGHTERS.
And he was just ONE guy, look at that very small sample list.
Where is WC Moore? or White Crane's? or Northern Mantis?

Get where I am going with this?

[David Jamieson]

I think you may be missing the point of the thread David.
These are actual, recorded, verifiable KO's.
Archie Moore KO'd more than 140 people, no scratch that, 140 FIGHTERS.
And he was just ONE guy, look at that very small sample list.
Where is WC Moore? or White Crane's? or Northern Mantis?

Get where I am going with this?

Yeah, and it will go no more because there are a bajillion wing chun/crane/mantis/et al clubs that don't agree with each other or compete or have varying history or legends and like most traditional clubs have zero sanctioned venues for fighting.

However, how many did Archie Moore kill with a spear?
I'll bet there were a lot of soldiers of yore who trained daily with a spear, killed many and never knocked anyone out.

Kung Fu doesn't have a single rule set like boxing does.

Chinese martial arts are so far and apart from each other, they do not enjoy the unity of Muay Thai style which has slowly morphed into a single style due to the rule set it uses with slight variation depending on the populace that enjoys it.

for instance, in US and Canada, Muay Thai isn't actually like the Muay Thai used in Thailand because it negates some of the more devastating stuff such as elbow strikes.

then again, I though that burmese boxers looked and fought a lot harder and tougher than any thais and despite that you types "most feared fighter..." I'd never even heard of that guy.

But then, I've never heard of lots of guys who have knocked out lots of other guys in sport fights.

I'm still in the kung fu would be properly evolved with gun use in it camp. :)

[crashhelmet]

I think you may be missing the point of the thread David.
These are actual, recorded, verifiable KO's.
Archie Moore KO'd more than 140 people, no scratch that, 140 FIGHTERS.
And he was just ONE guy, look at that very small sample list.
Where is WC Moore? or White Crane's? or Northern Mantis?

Get where I am going with this?

Where are the Kung Fu tournaments that would promote and track these KOs? Thats' the biggest difference and what David was pointing out. Kung Fu is not a sport. If it was elevated to a sport, you just might see those knockouts.

[lkfmdc]

never trust Muay Thai records, they are estimates at best....

[EarthDragon]

kinda confused about the intent of this thread... sanjuro was your point to show boxing or MT has better /tougher fighters then TCMA?

Or trying to put the "art" of kung fu into a sport catagory to be measured?

[goju]

And yet, even with all those restrictions and a level playing field, you get all those KO's !
!


and even in mixed competitions boxers or guys who have more advanced boxing than their opponent often win

[IronWeasel]

kinda confused about the intent of this thread... sanjuro was your point to show boxing or MT has better /tougher fighters then TCMA?





I think his intent was to point out the weakness inherent in Muay Thai and Boxing.

Both sports show hundreds of matches and the worst thing that happened was a K.O.

Had those all been Kung Fu matches, there would have been 247 confirmed kills and 78 Dim Mak related deaths over the next few days.

[David Jamieson]

lol @iw.

If records were even kept and a consistent tournament system were in place and the rule set involved stated clearly that a knockout was the most singular way to decisively win the fight, then I'm pretty sure there will be a high count of knockouts no matter what you apply that too, style wise.

Comparably speaking, the whole KO being the measure would mete out as judo is for sissies!

just kidding judokas! :D

[mooyingmantis]

I think his intent was to point out the weakness inherent in Muay Thai and Boxing.

Both sports show hundreds of matches and the worst thing that happened was a K.O.

Had those all been Kung Fu matches, there would have been 247 confirmed kills and 78 Dim Mak related deaths over the next few days.

LOL! Love that answer!

Sanjuro,
Let's get real. The majority of martial artists in the US are KIDS. Tournaments for the most part draw KIDS. There has traditionally been NO MONEY to gain in martial arts tournaments. Even a small purse in boxing equals more money than I had before. In martial arts, winning a competition meant a plastic trophy or pocket change at the very most.

Offer me $5,000 to $20,000 for each tournament I win a year and I might risk getting cauliflower ears, broken bones and permanent brain damage. But for a plastic trophy and chump change? Pass!

The idea of martial artists training to fight in tournaments as a means to making a living is VERY NEW. I mean new in the sense that I have been doing this over 40 years and remember when martial arts tournaments forbid ANY contact whatsoever.

Anyone who risks serious injury with little reward is a fool. I would venture to say that most of the members on this board earn a living through a vocation, some are fortunate enough to teach martial arts for a living. Who wants to risk not being able to support a family because you are injured doing your hobby? What instructor wants to teach from crutches? How many here could afford to miss a few weeks work because of a sport injury?

I think even the most hardcore of us will admit that what we do is a pastime. We do not train to be "professional fighters". I am content in the knowledge that I can defend myself and my family. Either with my fists, or as Jamieson pointed out, my gun. I have few illusions about who I am or what I do.

[David Jamieson]

LOL! Love that answer!

Sanjuro,
Let's get real. The majority of martial artists in the US are KIDS. Tournaments for the most part draw KIDS. There has traditionally been NO MONEY to gain in martial arts tournaments. Even a small purse in boxing equals more money than I had before. In martial arts, winning a competition meant a plastic trophy or pocket change at the very most.

Offer me $5,000 to $20,000 for each tournament I win a year and I might risk getting cauliflower ears, broken bones and permanent brain damage. But for a plastic trophy and chump change? Pass!

The idea of martial artists training to fight in tournaments as a means to making a living is VERY NEW. I mean new in the sense that I have been doing this over 40 years and remember when martial arts tournaments forbid ANY contact whatsoever.

Anyone who risks serious injury with little reward is a fool. I would venture to say that most of the members on this board earn a living through a vocation, some are fortunate enough to teach martial arts for a living. Who wants to risk not being able to support a family because you are injured doing your hobby? What instructor wants to teach from crutches? How many here could afford to miss a few weeks work because of a sport injury?

I think even the most hardcore of us will admit that what we do is a pastime. We do not train to be "professional fighters". I am content in the knowledge that I can defend myself and my family. Either with my fists, or as Jamieson pointed out, my gun. I have few illusions about who I am or what I do.

Oh yeah, material wealth is the reason!

Darn mortgage...portfolio...utilities.....taxes...food. ..car...entertainment.... :p

[Scott R. Brown]

I have killed 143 people....that I am able to admit to on a public BB!

If I posted the REAL number I would have to kill you all.

32 were with my bare hands, 26 of those with an open hand!

27 with just one finger!

11 with my teeth!

64 with merely an evil stare, we used to call it "The Evil Eye"!

19 with butter knives!

5 with spoons!

79 with my thoughts!

3 with wet noodles....this one takes way too long to do, that is why it such a small number!

The moral here is.....Don't make me angry! You wouldn't like me when I'm angry!:mad:

[sihing]

You can't deny the effectiveness of boxing and MT, and other combat sports. They definetly bring a realizm aspect to it, they know how to KO you for sure.

Martial Arts, which is mostly about Marketing today, is the same, but different people participate with it. Yup, I can make one a KO machine if they want that in my class, but quite frankly none of them are looking for that, none of them are looking to get bloody and bruised every class, and neither was I when I was starting out and today as well, to old now to deal with regular injuries.

The guys you mentioned, the were fighters, plain and simple, they liked to fight, they found the boxing and did it, not all have that personality or attitude toward it, and there in lies the difference IMO. As long as one is honest with what they want out of it and their abilities, it's fine in my book.

James

[Yum Cha]

There is something resolutely practical about knocking someone out. Kinda like, all roads lead to Rome. Proof of the pudding, all that.

What if we chalked it up, as knockouts per year? Would boxing still dominate MMA?


And I agree with the obvious logical break, being that the format is different, and the objectives are broader in some of the TMA.

[David Jamieson]

I have killed 143 people....that I am able to admit to on a public BB!

If I posted the REAL number I would have to kill you all.

32 were with my bare hands, 26 of those with an open hand!

27 with just one finger!

11 with my teeth!

64 with merely an evil stare, we used to call it "The Evil Eye"!

19 with butter knives!

5 with spoons!

79 with my thoughts!

3 with wet noodles....this one takes way too long to do, that is why it such a small number!

The moral here is.....Don't make me angry! You wouldn't like me when I'm angry!:mad:

Your anger is seriously affecting your math skills. And not in a good way!

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can't deny the effectiveness of boxing and MT, and other combat sports. They definetly bring a realizm aspect to it, they know how to KO you for sure.

Martial Arts, which is mostly about Marketing today, is the same, but different people participate with it. Yup, I can make one a KO machine if they want that in my class, but quite frankly none of them are looking for that, none of them are looking to get bloody and bruised every class, and neither was I when I was starting out and today as well, to old now to deal with regular injuries.

The guys you mentioned, the were fighters, plain and simple, they liked to fight, they found the boxing and did it, not all have that personality or attitude toward it, and there in lies the difference IMO. As long as one is honest with what they want out of it and their abilities, it's fine in my book.

James

It pains me that it was a WC guy that got most of the point !
LOL !
No offense James :)


My point was that every MA has anecodotes and stories about how Master Dim Sum destroyed 5 people, 3 dog, 1 cat and 13 grasshoppers with one clinching of his mighty buttock !
Yet the vast majority are NOT verifiable in any shape or form.
We have threads about how Master A can do this and that and knock down a person with the twitching of his pinky, yet NONE of it verifiable.
And then we have Boxing and MT ( feel free to add any combat system that DOES fight and that DOES keep records, that systems aren't the point) with verifiable acts of "mass mayhem" ( and KOing over 100 people does qualify as such).

My point?

If you haven't got it by now, I don't know what more to say but allow me to say this:

Instead of theorizing about what type of "strike" or which way way to hold your left toe so as to make your punch the most powerful, why not view the concrete evidence we DO HAVE and take it from there.

In other words, Boxers routinely KO people when they fight, some boxer far more than others, this means they probably have a pretty good punch so maybe, just maybe, one would do well to see what THEY are doing right ( since they ARE KO'ing people on a regular basis) and take THAT into advisment.

Or we can debate the correct way to hit based on people that are NOT knocking anyone out.

[David Jamieson]

It pains me that it was a WC guy that got most of the point !
LOL !
No offense James :)


My point was that every MA has anecodotes and stories about how Master Dim Sum destroyed 5 people, 3 dog, 1 cat and 13 grasshoppers with one clinching of his mighty buttock !
Yet the vast majority are NOT verifiable in any shape or form.
We have threads about how Master A can do this and that and knock down a person with the twitching of his pinky, yet NONE of it verifiable.
And then we have Boxing and MT ( feel free to add any combat system that DOES fight and that DOES keep records, that systems aren't the point) with verifiable acts of "mass mayhem" ( and KOing over 100 people does qualify as such).

My point?

If you haven't got it by now, I don't know what more to say but allow me to say this:

Instead of theorizing about what type of "strike" or which way way to hold your left toe so as to make your punch the most powerful, why not view the concrete evidence we DO HAVE and take it from there.

In other words, Boxers routinely KO people when they fight, some boxer far more than others, this means they probably have a pretty good punch so maybe, just maybe, one would do well to see what THEY are doing right ( since they ARE KO'ing people on a regular basis) and take THAT into advisment.

Or we can debate the correct way to hit based on people that are NOT knocking anyone out.

Dunno about that.

For one thing, the KO's are recorded as part and parcel of the event. So, if you run a venue and have fight events and someone keeps records, then you will at the end of it have a list of who made what KO.

Because it's a recorded sport it's better some how?

I don't think so. Sport is sport is sport. Realism? Of course it's realism, you are hitting someone and they are hitting you.

But, there are still a lot of buts regarding sport etc.

I personally won't wrestle a wrestler or box a boxer. I'd hit both of them with an axe if they pulled any crap on me or my fam though. :)

Just saying that you can't apply ruled sports to everything as some measure of value. That measure ONLY applies to those sports.

There are almost 7 billion people on this planet. 10 guys or even a 1000 guys making a hundred knockouts in a career is so irellevant and so insignificant when measured against that.

I don't practice to mix it up and haven't for ages. Fighting is for the young (and foolish).

Here's a thought. How many fighters are there who actually have made a living at it? Compare that to how many people study and practice martial arts.

Yeah...that's an eye opener. :p

Kung Fu is integrated to my life and brings me enjoyment and peace.
I don't care about fighting.

[Scott R. Brown]

Your anger is seriously affecting your math skills. And not in a good way!

Anger is unprofessional.....and my math skills are impecable!

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are almost 7 billion people on this planet. 10 guys or even a 1000 guys making a hundred knockouts in a career is so irellevant and so insignificant when measured against that.

I quote this part because THIS part is actually quite relevant, why?
Because THOSE are the guys you want to study and see what THEY are doing right.

[David Jamieson]

.

I quote this part because THIS part is actually quite relevant, why?
Because THOSE are the guys you want to study and see what THEY are doing right.

Why do you want to study them? They are participating in their sport. They aren't doing anything different except for being who they are.

I don't think they need to be studied. There's not a lot to be taken away from that.
If you are training to fight competitively, it's likely you may score some knockouts too!.

I'm still not seeing a connection between boxers and muay thai guys making recorded knockouts being indicative of those being better martial arts. They aren't. They are sports, that record who fights and how they won.

Betcha can't name 10 guys who have scored knockouts and yet never got to the Ali or Leonard level of things.

see?

Name 10 MT guys without looking?

10 BJJ guys?

see what I mean? sport is only as valuable as the investment you put into it. The buy in you give it.

If nobody gave buy in to football, nobody would care about it and it wouldn't be the huge draw and attraction that it is.

Nobody gives buy in to organized cross-style chinese martial arts except in san shou venues. That's trained to yet another rule set that in effect makes san shou a sport like any other kick boxing thing.

name 10 san shou fighters! no looking!

see what I mean? It really is meaningless in the grand scheme of things, however, if you practice chinese martial arts to improve your quality of living and it's working, does that have more value than scoring knockouts?

Martial Arts being only about fighting and efficiently knocking someone out is a bit of an Abilene paradox.

lol as in, is that really what you want to get out of your kung fu training?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think this needs to be re-quoted it seems:

Instead of theorizing about what type of "strike" or which way way to hold your left toe so as to make your punch the most powerful, why not view the concrete evidence we DO HAVE and take it from there.

[goju]

name 10 san shou fighters! no looking!

see what I mean? It really is meaningless in the grand scheme of things, however, if you practice chinese martial arts to improve your quality of living and it's working, does that have more value than scoring knockouts??


why not do both?

i like your whole passive take on this puts a whole new spin to the ridiculous sport vs art never ending marry go around of stupidty :rolleyes:

[goju]

I think this needs to be re-quoted it seems:

Instead of theorizing about what type of "strike" or which way way to hold your left toe so as to make your punch the most powerful, why not view the concrete evidence we DO HAVE and take it from there.

that doesnt matter though apparently punching and kicking really has nothing to do with punching and kicking:D

of course thats if youre enlightened and achieved nirvana:p

[David Jamieson]

OK, maybe I should reword this.

KO's are recorded as part of the sports record.
Because boxing is overseen by a few sanctioning bodies (wba, ibf et al) they keep records of the stuff that goes on.

As a person who has boxing experience and kung fu experience, I can honestly say, there is not a lot of difference in how power is expressed through punches or kicks.

Boxing focuses on a very limited amount of things and allows one to develop enough power in a given punch or two because that is all they are working as far as the punches go.

Strength and conditioning is whole and apart from that.

I don't buy into the idea for one second that Kung Fu styles cannot generate power enough to knock someone out with a strike.

It can and it does. But Kung Fu has no tournament venues for sport fighting except for san shou.

Kung Fu isn't boxing and boxing isn't Kung Fu, Muay Thai isn't boxing either and it's not Kung Fu (in the sense of the word where kung fu is the blanket term for chinese martial arts)

So, plenty fo knock outs come from the fists and feet of kung fu men, but it simply isn't in sanctioned fights that are recorded etc and so, it doesn't matter.

You don't actually think boxing has something to teach Kung Fu do you? If so what? To get organized and have sport fights in order to acquire records for fighters?

[sanjuro_ronin]

You don't actually think boxing has something to teach Kung Fu do you? If so what?

Yes, I do.
Well for one thing how to develop consistent knockout power even with pillow on your hands, LOL !
All kidding aside, yes I think that kung fu has much to learn about this and the proff is those threads about momentum, force, inch power and six directional force and the somali anal knuckle twist.

[mig]

My point was that every MA has anecodotes and stories about how Master Dim Sum destroyed 5 people, 3 dog, 1 cat and 13 grasshoppers with one clinching of his mighty buttock !
Yet the vast majority are NOT verifiable in any shape or form.
We have threads about how Master A can do this and that and knock down a person with the twitching of his pinky, yet NONE of it verifiable.
And then we have Boxing and MT ( feel free to add any combat system that DOES fight and that DOES keep records, that systems aren't the point) with verifiable acts of "mass mayhem" ( and KOing over 100 people does qualify as such).

My point?

Who told you to believe that? Is that in a fairy tale or a disney movie? If you are about the same age as I am we were duped with that nonsense and you can see that not even in China they would believe that in real life. It is just like today with professional wrestling, look at the audience and they believe what they are seeing as real look at people watching TV and been captivated by reality shows.

The numbers you are showing is part of the marketing hype to show what people want to be entertained about it. Back in the old day, you had boxers who never made it to the top because was not marketable and it was not acceptable by the intelligentsia. Those numbers are good for the past 20 yrs. or so and validate what's acceptable today.

[Lucas]

And what, Sir, is your issue with the somali anal kuckle twist?

[David Jamieson]

Yes, I do.
Well for one thing how to develop consistent knockout power even with pillow on your hands, LOL !
All kidding aside, yes I think that kung fu has much to learn about this and the proff is those threads about momentum, force, inch power and six directional force and the somali anal knuckle twist.

like i said, I've boxed and I do kung fu.

boxing training doesn't offer any training that is superior to kung fu when it comes to power generation. It really doesn't.

the threads that delve into minutia tend to be coming from the same place as they are in boxing forums. :)

[Lucas]

heres 2 random guys i got from google fighting out of china using cma influenced sanshou. although like most fighters they take what works, boxing, bjj, mma, cma, thai, japanese, etc. most guys are crossing over to mma now days so you have to mix it up to keep that competative edge. could these be more impressive, sure i guess. did i try hard to find these? nope about 1 minute on google...

Liu Hailong - 54 fights , 50 wins, (sry no ko count)

Bao Li Gao / known as: "Son of the Grassland" and "Muay Thai Killer"
MMA record (total): 48-6-0 (KO wins:21- Sub wins:16- Dec wins:11- KO losses:1- Sub losses:4- Dec Losses:1)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sweet, so obviously we are all in agreement and we won't be seeing anymore threads about stuff that isn't verifiable.

[Lucas]

Sweet, so obviously we are all in agreement and we won't be seeing anymore threads about stuff that isn't verifiable.

hahahahahhahahahahahahhaha....




hahahahahahahahahahahahhaha

[David Jamieson]

hahahahahhahahahahahahhaha....




hahahahahahahahahahahahhaha

...cont

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

:p

[bawang]

i dont see any kung fu guys doing marching drills and formations training. martial arts is art of war. guns have been part of chinese martial arts for 500 years wheres the firearmtraining.

i dont think kung fu can be called martial art because today it compromises its integrity. lots parts of chinese martial arts but people dont train it because its not fun. you dont see that in japanese kobudo they take that sh1t seriously.

[David Jamieson]

i dont see any kung fu guys doing marching drills and formations training. martial arts is art of war. guns have been part of chinese martial arts for 500 years wheres the firearmtraining.

it is supplemental these days.

It's safe to say that virtually NO martial arts schools offer firearms handling, retention and use and you would think that would be some realistic martial training these days...but nope.

weird.

[sanjuro_ronin]

it is supplemental these days.

It's safe to say that virtually NO martial arts schools offer firearms handling, retention and use and you would think that would be some realistic martial training these days...but nope.

weird.

I know a few that do, but to be honest, outside the DBMA affiliates, they tend to be more RBSD type and not very good.

[bawang]

guns are seriously busness theres no play factor. its littled talked about in chinese martial arts because they were viewed as sacred. if i lived in us and had opportunity i definitely would train firearms then i would be a real martial artist. because of that i dont see myself as a martial artist, im just a hobbyist.

i think the us military has the essence of martial arts . they put wu de and wei in real practice.

[crashhelmet]

It pains me that it was a WC guy that got most of the point !
LOL !
No offense James :)


My point was that every MA has anecodotes and stories about how Master Dim Sum destroyed 5 people, 3 dog, 1 cat and 13 grasshoppers with one clinching of his mighty buttock !
Yet the vast majority are NOT verifiable in any shape or form.
We have threads about how Master A can do this and that and knock down a person with the twitching of his pinky, yet NONE of it verifiable.
And then we have Boxing and MT ( feel free to add any combat system that DOES fight and that DOES keep records, that systems aren't the point) with verifiable acts of "mass mayhem" ( and KOing over 100 people does qualify as such).

My point?

If you haven't got it by now, I don't know what more to say but allow me to say this:

Instead of theorizing about what type of "strike" or which way way to hold your left toe so as to make your punch the most powerful, why not view the concrete evidence we DO HAVE and take it from there.

In other words, Boxers routinely KO people when they fight, some boxer far more than others, this means they probably have a pretty good punch so maybe, just maybe, one would do well to see what THEY are doing right ( since they ARE KO'ing people on a regular basis) and take THAT into advisment.

Or we can debate the correct way to hit based on people that are NOT knocking anyone out.

So you're saying we need someone to go around and knock out a bunch of people to promote the arts and give it the same prestige as Boxing or MT?

http://knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/4457/original/challenge.jpg
Challenge Accepted :p











I may need someone to post my bail though.

[David Jamieson]

guns are seriously busness theres no play factor. its littled talked about in chinese martial arts because they were viewed as sacred. if i lived in us and had opportunity i definitely would train firearms then i would be a real martial artist. because of that i dont see myself as a martial artist, im just a hobbyist.

i think the us military has the essence of martial arts . they put wu de and wei in real practice.

:)

go here: http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/weblinks.html

supplement what you are being denied by the "sacred" lol.

P.S your IPSC black badge is more "real" than any black belt you can get. :D

because it means that you can:
-consistently shoot a handgun into a 6" group from 20 yards.
-operate the safety and clip release of your gun with only your shooting hand.

[bawang]

thx for link bro. does that mean you can carry handgun with licence in canada? or only on shooting ranges?

i never seen anyone in canada carry a gun, it would be normal in us but it would look pretty weird here i dont know. and i dont live in the country side. i would get a licence and carry a gun if i lived in america but i dont know aobut canada. people dont have the same attitude

[David Jamieson]

thx for link bro. does that mean you can carry handgun with licence in canada? or only on shooting ranges?

i never seen anyone in canada carry a gun, it would be normal in us but it would look pretty weird here i dont know. and i dont live in the country side. i would get a licence and carry a gun if i lived in america but i dont know aobut canada. people dont have the same attitude

You can carry a gun around on your own property as much as you like.

If you take employment as a special constable or constable or some levels of security guard, then it's likely you'll be carrying a gun on you a lot.

If you own a farm, you should have firearms and whilst checking your fences, you should be armed.

In the city, you are restricted of course. Horse sense and all that.

[Lucas]

in usa we all wear revolvers on our hips

[Northwind]

in usa we all wear revolvers on our hips

Speak for yourself! I know about reality-based training and as a TCMA-er, I carry multiple SAMs in my socks of course.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So you're saying we need someone to go around and knock out a bunch of people to promote the arts and give it the same prestige as Boxing or MT?

Nope, what I am saying is that, using Boxing and MT as examples because they have verifiable results, if you are looking to improve your striking ability, ie: more knockout power/ability, then you should go where the evidence leads, no?
We can debate and theorize over "jing" and " directional force vectors" and momentum" and "impulse" and how they relate to the "one legged chicken stance", or we can go where the evidence for effective knockout ability leads us.

[David Jamieson]

Nope, what I am saying is that, using Boxing and MT as examples because they have verifiable results, if you are looking to improve your striking ability, ie: more knockout power/ability, then you should go where the evidence leads, no?
We can debate and theorize over "jing" and " directional force vectors" and momentum" and "impulse" and how they relate to the "one legged chicken stance", or we can go where the evidence for effective knockout ability leads us.

no.

simply recording the fights is no indication that there is better training there or better methods of power generation or anything.

I can use a chinese martial arts punch to knock someone out just as readily as using a boxing punch.

keeping a record indicates nothing more than a record kept. plenty of kf men have ktfo'd plenty of other dudes.

hitting someone in the head hard will yield knockouts. It doesn't matter what you do.

[Sardinkahnikov]

If one wants to show results similar to those of the listed fighters, then he must train like they do, which is pretty much impossible for those of us who can barely squeeze 2 hours 3 times a week to practice. We have to accept that we are hobbyist, not warriors of old or professional fighters.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If one wants to show results similar to those of the listed fighters, then he must train like they do, which is pretty much impossible for those of us who can barely squeeze 2 hours 3 times a week to practice. We have to accept that we are hobbyist, not warriors of old or professional fighters.

It's not about showing similar results.
If you wanted to learn to run the 100 meters as fast as you could, who would you look to?
Some guy giving advice about what some one may have done 100 years ago or the current training methods of the trainer of those actually running the 100 as fast as they can and breaking personal records?

If you wanted to learn how to swim, would you seek advice from guys that you have never seen even in the pool, or those that train competitive swimmers?

Just saying...

[Lucas]

but what about those of us who just got thrown in the water and were told "swim or die boy"?

:p

[David Jamieson]

If one wants to show results similar to those of the listed fighters, then he must train like they do, which is pretty much impossible for those of us who can barely squeeze 2 hours 3 times a week to practice. We have to accept that we are hobbyist, not warriors of old or professional fighters.

I disagree.

I one wants the results of a boxer, then they should go box and get into ranked competition. Period.

A boxer isn't better at KO's he simply has the opportunity through his sport and it's venues to land them in a setting where it is recorded.

You don't honestly think that people who train kung fu for years and years can't knock someone out do you?

and if it is about the training method, then why do so many boxers not win by knockout? what of them? What about that guy who wins 20 fights without ever scoring a knockout?

did he train improperly? what is wrong with that guys power generation.

In short, my opinion is that the entire premise of this thread is off.

A boxer will not train you to generate power any more or any better than you can with a given style of kung fu and discussion of the minutia is just that.

there's plenty of minutia discussed in boxing forums as well. about angles of attack, overhands vs straight jabs, force development through correct structure and so on.

for gawd's sake this is a kung fu forum! lol of course we will speak of kung fu topics and screw those sport fighters that try to convince us that what they do is better. It's not, it simply is what it is.

[Sardinkahnikov]

It's not about showing similar results.
If you wanted to learn to run the 100 meters as fast as you could, who would you look to?
Some guy giving advice about what some one may have done 100 years ago or the current training methods of the trainer of those actually running the 100 as fast as they can and breaking personal records?

If you wanted to learn how to swim, would you seek advice from guys that you have never seen even in the pool, or those that train competitive swimmers?

Just saying...

Well, it depends, I guess. For example, there's the medieval martial arts groups that use old treatises interpretated via live practice. A while ago it didn't look very promising, but some rather decent (or cool looking at least, lol) videos are surfacing, like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ea5-nMpJL0

But I think I get your point. It's just that I fear one might throw the baby out with the bath water, you know?

[Sardinkahnikov]

I disagree.

I one wants the results of a boxer, then they should go box and get into ranked competition. Period.

A boxer isn't better at KO's he simply has the opportunity through his sport and it's venues to land them in a setting where it is recorded.

You don't honestly think that people who train kung fu for years and years can't knock someone out do you?

and if it is about the training method, then why do so many boxers not win by knockout? what of them? What about that guy who wins 20 fights without ever scoring a knockout?

did he train improperly? what is wrong with that guys power generation.

In short, my opinion is that the entire premise of this thread is off.

A boxer will not train you to generate power any more or any better than you can with a given style of kung fu and discussion of the minutia is just that.

there's plenty of minutia discussed in boxing forums as well. about angles of attack, overhands vs straight jabs, force development through correct structure and so on.

for gawd's sake this is a kung fu forum! lol of course we will speak of kung fu topics and screw those sport fighters that try to convince us that what they do is better. It's not, it simply is what it is.

Let's not make this about kung fu vs boxing or whatever, because it's a silly discussion. Also, the original post wasn't pointing out "boxing KO's" but the KOs of specific fighters who, more often than not, knocked their opponents out. If one is concerned with fighting prowess - the ability to take his opponent down - then maybe it's worth to look at how these fighters do it; it's not an attack at kung fu.

Not that we should obsess over the UFC fight card, but martial skill is (or should be, IMO) an integral part of any style, since it is through it that the practitioner may develop martial virtues (courage, physical and mental toughness, etc)

[David Jamieson]

Let's not make this about kung fu vs boxing or whatever, because it's a silly discussion. Also, the original post wasn't pointing out "boxing KO's" but the KOs of specific fighters who, more often than not, knocked their opponents out. If one is concerned with fighting prowess - the ability to take his opponent down - then maybe it's worth to look at how these fighters do it; it's not an attack at kung fu.

Not that we should obsess over the UFC fight card, but martial skill is (or should be, IMO) an integral part of any style, since it is through it that the practitioner may develop martial virtues (courage, physical and mental toughness, etc)

I think the very idea of promoting one style of sport over another style because of recorded knockouts is a flawed premise.

The original post was about how there are so many knockouts in boxing and MT that maybe we should be looking at those to find same in kung fu.

I disagree with this and I don't think there is any more power or knockout power in those sports than there is in Kung Fu training.

If Kung Fu is to have more recorded knock outs then it simply has to be put in a format where that opportunity arises.

That current format is called san shou.
google san shou knockouts and you'll find that hey, kung fu guys are getting knockouts with san shou training which is by default the sport version of kung fu.

therefore, the premise is flawed.

[sanjuro_ronin]

That current format is called san shou.
google san shou knockouts and you'll find that hey, kung fu guys are getting knockouts with san shou training which is by default the sport version of kung fu.

therefore, the premise is flawed.

Considering where sanshou got their striking methods, you just made the premise of this thread.
They incorporated western boxing and MT.

Now this is NOT a thread about styles, bout about methodology and I guess that was lost somewhere.
My bad.
I would have loved to have posted the KO records of top kung fu fighters, but there aren't any.
:P

[David Jamieson]

.

Considering where sanshou got their striking methods, you just made the premise of this thread.
They incorporated western boxing and MT.

Now this is NOT a thread about styles, bout about methodology and I guess that was lost somewhere.
My bad.
I would have loved to have posted the KO records of top kung fu fighters, but there aren't any.
:P

Where did sanshou get their striking methods?
They train for sport fighting and come from all sorts of backgrounds.

so, you can punch, kick and throw in san shou.

some guys train MT style and other guys train chinese kick boxing style.

When I was formally studying Kung Fu, it was very clear that the training methods for competitive fighting were very different and that if we chose to pursue that, we would not be training forms, or lion dance or qigong. lol.
We would train for that venue.

That's just how it is.

It is kind of unreasonable to ask a cow to be a goat or a cat to be a dog.

Yoga has a terrible record of knockouts. Yet, it's hard to deny that it's good for a body and excellent supplemental training for any fighter out there.

Judo sucks at knock outs, same with karate apparently...lol

It's the venue. Train to it.

If you are a hobbyist who is training for the health of it and you don't compete, why on earth would you bother using the competitive training method? It would be more effective to train something that will work towards your goal instead of pursuing something that isn't going to happen.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yoga has a terrible record of knockouts. Yet, it's hard to deny that it's good for a body and excellent supplemental training for any fighter out there.
Don't see many yogi giving people advice on how to improve their striking power do you?


Judo sucks at knock outs, same with karate apparently...lol
Don't see many judoka giving the advice that true striking power comes from "six directional force" do you?

As for Karate sucking at KO's, well, we do at least have evidence of some Karateka KO'ing people on a regular basis.

Dude, you need to spend more time in the WC forums.

[wenshu]

Dude, you need to spend more time in the WC forums.

Or you could spend less. . .

I was kind of confused as to what the hell you were referring to with all that ridiculous over analytical terminology. . .

Oh Yeah, The Chun.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Or you could spend less. . .

I was kind of confused as to what the hell you were referring to with all that ridiculous over analytical terminology. . .

Oh Yeah, The Chun.

LOL !
Yeah, I think you may be right !
Less time in WC forum = more sanity and pics of scantly clad women !


But I have to be honest, I didn't think I would have to explain my point that much...

[David Jamieson]

Don't see many yogi giving people advice on how to improve their striking power do you?


Don't see many judoka giving the advice that true striking power comes from "six directional force" do you?

As for Karate sucking at KO's, well, we do at least have evidence of some Karateka KO'ing people on a regular basis.

Dude, you need to spend more time in the WC forums.

lol, NO! I'm not going in there anymore.
I accidentally wound up in there recently and was disoriented somewhat.

yes, they gargle the garbage a lot with their chit chat on the chun.

But, wc garbage garglers cannot be regarded as the source on martial information. If anything they have a very small amount and a tendency to drive that into a mountain of argument. lol.

I think this is prevalent in that style because the actual information that can be gotten from such a compact and small style dries up pretty quickly and leave people wanting for more.

so they over analyze the crap out of what little they have.

You don't see this with styles that are huge and robust as far as the info within goes and that is likely because there is enough there to keep feeding the knowledge for quite sometime where as it runs out quickly in small styles like wing chun.

many wing chun folks fail to realize the true beauty of their style in that it is a highly distilled version of shaolin kung fu that has cut loose from all the other aspects and gongs and favours developing a fighter quickly.

The trap that wing chun people fall into is in trying to fill out the style when really that will impede it, bloat it, make it confusing and essentially turn it into the convoluted dogs breakfast that we see today with many names, different pronunciations, people who call themselves the real and those who claim orthodoxy and those who make other claims about this or that and it all amounts to nonsense.

wing chun is a dead simple format. I think this is what gets the teachers of it ticked a little maybe? They want it to be more complex, but it simply isn't. They want it to contain a bunch of the obscure stuff found in other styles, but it doesn't.

people have gone so far as to throw tornado kicks into it and call those wing chun!

real wing chun practitioners known and understand the beauty of having a small, compact and easy to learn system.

guys with little weenies and huge egos cannot accept this.

Nothing new there. lol
:p

flame on I guess. I can take it because I know I'm right about this. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

It sucks that David has actually done one of the best evaluations of WC I've read on this forum.
******* !!

[Frost]

Yes, I do.
Well for one thing how to develop consistent knockout power even with pillow on your hands, LOL !
All kidding aside, yes I think that kung fu has much to learn about this and the proff is those threads about momentum, force, inch power and six directional force and the somali anal knuckle twist.

give it up its pointless and you know it!

[David Jamieson]

give it up its pointless and you know it!

...and your style of kung fu that you've invested in and still can't figure out why you can't punch powerfully is?

lol

I can hit hard with 16 oz gloves on no problem. Using only kung fu stance, power generation and hand forms. no problem.

I can do the same with orthodox western boxing.

This is a terrific argument. One of the better one's on here.

[wenshu]

The Chun is like Crossfit.

Women look %#$ing smokin' doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Svvp2GOCKnU

But it makes a man look like a limp wristed candy ass.



Gong Fu can teach you how to hit. (Certain, previously mentioned exceptions notwithstanding)

Boxing (MT, SD) teach you how to hit while being hit.

I happen to think they compliment each other nicely. Don't really understand why people are dead set on mutual exclusivity.

For Gong Fu it must be reiterated that effectiveness in one to one hand combat is not the measure of all worth. This is not to say it is ineffective, or more precisely that elements of it are ineffective.

[mooyingmantis]

it is supplemental these days.

It's safe to say that virtually NO martial arts schools offer firearms handling, retention and use and you would think that would be some realistic martial training these days...but nope.

weird.

Geez, leave it to a Canadian! :rolleyes:

Just kidding David.

Actually besides teaching martial arts, I am also an NRA certified pistol instructor. I teach concealed carry courses here in Ohio.

My beginning firearms course teaches safety, handling, retention and the five principles of proper pistol shooting technique. My advanced course teaches building clearing (doorways, corners, stairs, etc.) and outdoor live fire techniques.

I also teach an AR-15 course that covers all the above.

Ah the joys of living in the good old US of A!!!!:D

[Dale Dugas]

My teacher, Dr. John Painter teacher tactical firearms training with pistols as well as long guns.

I also practice as well.

[David Jamieson]

There ya go!

That's the evolution and the revolution of true martial arts.

Not switching to mma or sport fighting, but incorporating understanding of ways to effectively make violence.

scoring hits in a ring ain't it.
adding gun play into your regimen is!

Anyway, that's my view. I'd like to see more Kung Fu schools put some effort into firearms training because it makes the most sense. Crikey, if they taught about how to use a sword, then a gun totally makes sense doesn't it?

[Frost]

...and your style of kung fu that you've invested in and still can't figure out why you can't punch powerfully is?

lol

I can hit hard with 16 oz gloves on no problem. Using only kung fu stance, power generation and hand forms. no problem.

I can do the same with orthodox western boxing.

This is a terrific argument. One of the better one's on here.

so please show us you doing that in sparring, because thats what boxing does, shows it in a practical moving enviroment, where as kung fu just talks about it (hell the shan shau goes went to boxing to learn how to hit harD)

i can demo 1 inch and no inch breaks (hand resting on the wood no distance) can i do this in a fight hell no and i have never seen anyoNe use that power in a fight

can i ko someone in thai boxing, hell yes can you because as i seem to remember you got your backside handed to you when you sparred an MMA guy a while ago

[David Jamieson]

so please show us you doing that in sparring, because thats what boxing does, shows it in a practical moving enviroment, where as kung fu just talks about it (hell the shan shau goes went to boxing to learn how to hit harD)

i can demo 1 inch and no inch breaks (hand resting on the wood no distance) can i do this in a fight hell no and i have never seen anyoNe use that power in a fight

can i ko someone in thai boxing, hell yes can you because as i seem to remember you got your backside handed to you when you sparred an MMA guy a while ago

show you? lol. your talk is ridiculous and childish. If you think people don't train to strike properly in kung fu then you sir are ill educated about martial arts period.

Like I said, I did boxing, I understand it. It's not kung fu. You still haven't stated what Kung Fu style you've done and how it has denied you the skill of power generation in your punches. Please elaborate.

also, you seem to be a bit mixed up about who I am and whoever it was you think it was that fought some mma guy.

[goju]

heres the closet ive seen to an inch power punch

amusingly its not from a kung fu guy :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH13kYFzfFk

[goju]

Like I said, I did boxing, I understand it. It's not kung fu. You still haven't stated what Kung Fu style you've done and how it has denied you the skill of power generation in your punches. Please elaborate.
.

hes said what kung fu hes done before i believe he even mentioned working on some of the techniques into his mma sparring in his log as well

[Lucas]

idk maybe i only ever met scrubs (i dont believe that though) but ive been ko and i have ko a couple people and all i know is kungfu really. do i have a record? no. but ive sparred many times where you actually spar for real. you go for the fight. i got ko my first ever spar session i ever had.

i dont know where this idea comes from that kungfu guys never spar for real :confused:

maybe thats how some people practice kungfu but not everyone. i get tired of the same old steriotypes. white guys cant dance, black guys got big d!cks, asians cant drive,, latinos got the mad sex appeal and kungfu never spars for real.

its all the same BS some white guys can dance, some black guys are tiny, ive seen asian race car drivers, latins with no mojo and kungfu guys bleeding out their faces.

now dont get me wrong, im not saying kungfu has nothing to learn from another style. because it certainly does. i believe all styles have something to learn from other styles. whether its required to cross train to become competent with your chosen art is another matter entirely though. just like a boxer could learn a thing or two about realistic self defense on the street from a realistic kungfu exponent, that kungfu guy could likely glean some extra KO juice from the boxer.

[David Jamieson]

I don't think I specifically said nobody couldn't learn something from studying boxing. It's a beautiful simple thing. But the mechanics aren't a huge bridge from what you can get in kung fu.

You can score ko's with training only ko. You just have to fight. :-)

[David Jamieson]

hes said what kung fu hes done before i believe he even mentioned working on some of the techniques into his mma sparring in his log as well

nice. so, you tell me then. :p

[Syn7]

I don't think I specifically said nobody couldn't learn something from studying boxing.

thats golden

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys keep making this about kung fu VS boxing and it isn't about that at all.
It's about stuff like this:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59571

[David Jamieson]

You guys keep making this about kung fu VS boxing and it isn't about that at all.
It's about stuff like this:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59571

No one can solve the ass hattery that is the wing chun forum man. Don't even try, you'll be in a rubber taxi in the short term if you do! :p

Seriously, loose screws all over the place in there, get out while you can SR, just run! :D

[IRONMONK]

Paulie Maglianaggi :D

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I often say this but training methods are where the difference lies, nothing more. Boxers have a regiment which is pretty universal, lots of roadwork and physical conditioning, hitting heavy bags, hitting mitts, sparring with heavy equipment with litttle to no resistance, ect. It's easy to say Kung Fu does not do that, and many probably don't.

But considering how many styles and systems of Kung Fu there are, there are systems that get it right. You could even say individual schools rather than styles, because I have seen one school from the same system that is good and another that is total sh**it! I understand in many ways why a vast majority don't believe in the training methods of Kung Fu as opposed to say boxing or Muay Thai because it is obvious what good training or what the standard training for those styles can do for someone.

So in the end I defend my style of Kung Fu and how I teach it, and considering I have boxed at the amateur level and trained in Muay Thai, I won't deceive and say there are not elements of those styles I implented in my Kung Fu style and teaching method. But there are still many methods and the core of my style that I teach how I was taught, and they do work.

I could careless about defending ALL styles of Kung Fu, I know there is some sh**it out there, but I defend mine and what I practice and teach. I guess I'm one of "those" guys who has "teh realz" Kung Fu.:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

No one can solve the ass hattery that is the wing chun forum man. Don't even try, you'll be in a rubber taxi in the short term if you do! :p

Seriously, loose screws all over the place in there, get out while you can SR, just run! :D

LMAO !!!
I can find no fault in your argument !!

[IRONMONK]

what is Dempsey's KO record?

The wing chun punching mechanics that I was taught are very similar to Dempsey's!

[IRONMONK]

how many featherfisted pro boxers are there compared to pro boxers with impressive KO records?

[sanjuro_ronin]

what is Dempsey's KO record?

The wing chun punching mechanics that I was taught are very similar to Dempsey's!

http://www.cmgww.com/sports/dempsey/stats.htm

PROFESSIONAL BOXING RECORD
WINS: 60
LOSSES: 7
KO's: 51
DRAWS: 8
NO DECISION: 5

[GeneChing]

There are more pix if you follow the link (but this is the money shot).

That's going to hurt in the morning: Brutal knockout blow turns boxer's face to jelly (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2137260/Tony-Pietrantonios-face-turned-mush-brutal-knockout-blow.html?ICO=most_read_module)
By Daily Mail Reporter
PUBLISHED: 04:39 EST, 30 April 2012 | UPDATED: 07:15 EST, 30 April 2012

This brutal knockout blow turned a boxer's face to mush - making him look more like jelly than a prized jouster.

Tony Pietrantonio came crashing to the canvas in the 31st second of the third round following the devastating right-hander from fellow U.S. light heavyweight Lavarn Harvell.

Harvell, 23 - dubbed Baby Bowe because of his resemblance to former heavyweight champ Rid**** Bowe - said: 'I felt that punch all the way up my shoulder and back, so I knew he wasn’t getting up.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/04/30/article-0-12D2C31C000005DC-678_634x720.jpg
Knockout blow: Boxer Lavarn Harvell (right) smashes a mashed up Tony Pietrantonio (left) to end their light heavyweight bout

'I was so excited that I did a little dance for the fans, but that was before I saw how badly he was hurt.'

Pietrantonio, who only agreed to Saturday's fight three days previously, was unconscious as he hit the Atlantic City, New Jersey floor.

Referee David Fields stopped the bout and ushered in doctors, but the bruised boxer soon sat up, climbed onto a stool and left the ring under his own steam.

Harvell added to pressofatlanticcity.com: 'I’ve fought at the Hall before, but it was in the ballroom upstairs. It was a pretty special feeling to fight in the main room in front of all those people.'

[Pork Chop]

http://www.cmgww.com/sports/dempsey/stats.htm

PROFESSIONAL BOXING RECORD
WINS: 60
LOSSES: 7
KO's: 51
DRAWS: 8
NO DECISION: 5

Interesting, boxrec shows a discrepancy: 61(50)-6-9.

You forgot to mention Dieselnoi was 6'2 fighting at 125lbs and was strong as an ox. Muay Thai's original version of Jon Jones.

Met Samart Payakaroon this weekend. I'd be surprised if he was 5'8".

[Shaolin]

53 year old vs 21 year

http://youtu.be/saetQnDoEvM

Sloppy but awesome fight.