Instrucitonal Videos--scams, worthwhile, not effective, helpful? Which is the case..

[MantisKungFu]

I was thinking of possibly purchasing a couple Kung Fu instructional videos, such as in Wing Chun, or even possibly Jeet Kune Do. Here are my hesitations though:

Are the tapes actually worthwhile and helpful? After watching the tapes several times and practicing the techniques, would I actually get good at them? Are they worth $40 (like I saw in the Century Magazine) or are their cheaper ones?

And lastly I would like to know if anyone here has any personal experience with instructional videos, either training from them or even if you've just watched one. I'd like to know your opinions and experiences from them. Thanks a lot

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"It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

[Budokan]

I think you can find them a little cheaper than $40. That sounds kinda high. There's a whole slew from Panther that is less expensive.

Tapes can supplement your training (the key word being supplement) if you get your mits on a good one. Do some comparison shopping and take your time to find a good value.

My two yen.

K. Mark Hoover

[Kung Lek]

if you are just learning anew, they are good reference provided they are part of a codified system.

If you are intermediate, they are also good reference.

If your foundation has been laid in properly via direct transmission, then by all means you can learn a lot from videos and books.

If the monks had videos 300 years ago, they would certainly be learning from them, seeing as many learned much from just semi crude drawings andpoetic descriptions from books.

You need the foundational understanding though and that is generally directly transmitted by someone who has experience and knowledge.

There is on the other hand quite a lot of garbage information out there. Do some homework and find out who the more responsible and reliable instructors are. A good fighter is not necessarily a good teacher after all.

There are some really exceptional offerings out there such as the 'Chinas hidden treasures" series, and teh Wing Lam series featuring Wing Lam sifu himself also Lung Shums eagle claw vids are good and a few others. accompanying books, even in Chinese are good to have also for further reference and comparison within a codified system.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[shinwa]

I agree with Kung Lek. If you're fairly intelligent and already somewhat skilled you can learn loads. Traditionally people often learned from manuals anyway didn't they :p At least with videos the performance of the techniques is clearer. It really comes down to the individual. Give it a shot. Maybe you shoulfd just get one to start with though.

[Shaolindynasty]

If you can watch a bug fight and create a system you can learn from a video, if you can imagin the way a dragon would move if it exsisted and create a system you can learn from video. Assume of course you had a good foundation :D

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Shaolin36]

Excellent question MantisKF,
I just re3cently went through this same contemplation.

I bought a empty hand fist form tape(one that the monks put out). It was shot very thouroughly. Easy to learn. In slow motion the whole bit. Well, I got about a third into the form and I have a pretty strong foundation of Shaolin Kung Fu-So I felt I was getting it. Then I decided to share my info on a couple forums just as you are to feel out the situation. Well, I got handed my a$$ basically telling me that there is no way that I could learn this on my own and that I would learn the tactics wrong and have to unlearn them later on in my training. Even though I felt the application was evident, the footwork was there and everything seemed right- I was still shot down about the idea. I was told to use them for inspiration and entertainment.
Thats my story, just thought I would share.

Thanks,

Shaolin.

[Kung Lek]

Shaolin 36, there are a lot of stogy people out there isn't there.

Basically, I used to buy into that too until one of my former Kung fu brothers demonstrated a set he had learned from a blurry video tape of one of our other brothers and a book he had purchased.

he did the form better than I could and I learned it directly! His foundation was layed in strongly by the same teacher I had.

It really opened my eyes.

Also, if learning from a video is so useless, why do so many very good to excellent teachers bother to produce them?

whoever is telling you this stuff isn't at a level of understanding that is necessary and tactics only have relevance when used.

A theoretical tactic is not a practical tactic.
If it is developed and explained in theory and it doesn't work for you, tehn you need to study more or discard that particular tactic, would you agree?

Not to mention the fact that so many people are "lineage collectors" as opposed to martial artists. they tend to have this line of thinking that "if you didn't learn everything you know through direct transmission and only from this person then you don't know anything, and even after you drop them easily in a sparring match the refuse to see.

It's kinda funny really :D
Oh well, we're only human, don't let the churls get ya down and learn as much as you want to or need to learn.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Shaolin36]

Thanks Kung,
I know exactly what your talking about. My feeling is that if I can apply it in a real life situation then it should be included, If it is too "flowery" I get rid of it.
I was going to stop learning it, but I think I will keep going.

Thanks,

Shaolin36

[phoenix-eye]

Will someone please tell me the difference...
(and before anyone spouts off please read the whole post)

1) I pay my fee for a class with say 15 other people. The sifu shows us part of the form - he breaks down the moves and repeats them from different angles so the people at the back of the class can see and so that we can all grasp the subtelty of what he is doing.

2) I watch a video on my own of a form which shows sections and moves repeated from different angles so that I can grasp the subtelty of what is being shown.

In essence there is very little difference other than the demonstrator is in the room in one and on a screen in another.

If you know your basics then you can learn a lot from videos. Their main downside is the part where your sifu comes round and individually corrects your posture or some other aspect of your technique. This is a vitally important element but so is grasping the basic movements - otherwise what would there be to correct?

Some people here have the luxury of excellent sifus (as I do) but others do not. If you can lay the foundations using videos maybe someone will come along in the future and build a palace on top.

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

[Printer]

<SNIP>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Are the tapes actually worthwhile and helpful?[/quote]

First let me say that there is no real replacement for a GOOD sifu and school. I am very new to Wing Chun and am enjoying it.

Having said that...I have purchased two tapes since starting classes.
1. Wing Chun Kung Fu Vol. 1 by William M. Cheung
2. Wing Chun The Science of In-fighting by Master Wong Shun Leung

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>After watching the tapes several times and practicing the techniques, would I actually get good at them?[/quote]

Short Answer: NO.
If you watched both of these one after another you would see two totally differnet ways to perform the first and basic form: Sil Lim Tao. Albiet I do feel that Master Wong Shun Leung
tape does cover the basics much better. It gives you a breif history of Wing Chun and shows you some of the real basics. Example: how to punch correctly. I found both tapes grossly lacking any real footwork or stance training.

If I had to choose one of the two videos for a newcomer to watch it would be:
Wing Chun The Science of In-fighting by Master Wong Shun Leung. And my school is based on Grand Master William Cheung style Wing Chun.

Hope that helps.

PS. I plan on purchasing a Randy Williams Wing Chun tape soon.

[Hiram]

http://www.yipwingchun.com

You can check out my Sifu's Home Study course, or you can purchase the individual tapes only. I recommend the ones with picture-in-picture.

[Ky-Fi]

A couple of personal anecdotes:

When I was about 12 or 13, I bought the book "****o Ryu Karate", by Fumio Demura (ordered from the back of Black Belt magazine :)) I practiced the basic punches and kicks like crazy, and when I actually did sign up for Karate at age 15, I was really far ahead of other beginners, and within a couple months I could hold my own sparring against the brown and even a couple of the black belts.

I got out of the martial arts after I got out of college in my 20's, but at age 29 I was looking to get back into them to keep in shape. I bought a book on Taiji, learned some of the form from it, and then went to the school of the teacher who wrote the book (he happened to teach close to me) for a seminar. I was so far off, it was pathetic. I was actually worse than Taiji beginners who had never studied a martial art before, because I THOUGHT I knew what I was doing. Through the last few years, I've learned a lot of things from the books first, and then go to the school for personal instruction, and there's a huge difference. With personal instruction, if you're in a stance and the teacher gives you a small shove and you lose your balance, you quickly understand that your stance was too wide or too narrow. Especially with the Taiji concept of wardoff----you understand the difference between just holding your arm out as opposed to having "peng" when somebody shoves against you. Also, when your arm position is not accurate in a form posture, and you're not completely protecting a vital area, the teacher can easily show you how he can strike you there---when your teacher understands the combat side, he can show you not just how to do things, but WHY you do it like that. That's something you can't get too easily from books and videos.

I think books and videos are great, and you can always learn from a lot of sources, but IMO there's a lot of subtleties that can only be shown (and felt) in person.

[MantisKungFu]

I'm looking through a catalog right now and I see several Panther Wing Chun videos. I was thinking of purchasing the Wing Chun Fundamentals and the Wing Chun Sparring videos. Does anyone here have any experience with these videos? They are with Master Augustine Fong.

I also see a few Hung Gar Kung Fu videos, what type of style is Hung Gar? Has anyone here ever seen a Hung Gar video, if so how was it?

Just want to get some more opinions and suggestions, thanks everyone.

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"It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

[Wongsifu]

the panther hung gar videos really suck on one of them the guy performs the form 50 times from 67490720-7 different angle !!! and you pay 40$ for it ... 4get it.

I would advise getting books instead books are much better , they always contain more info you can erad the basics and absorb the pictures one by one and the amount of info is phenomenal about the style internal external. Looking at avideo tape is very very empty.

I have too many tapes in my collecion and they range from crapola to hmm okay, i have 100 odd books in my collection and each of them is a gem, plus you can buy 4 books for th eprice of 1 video.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[Shaolin36]

Hung Gar is a Southern style. It is rooted to the Southern Shaolin Temple.

[Buby]

I feel what you are going through, cause I too went through the same thing a few months ago. I wanted to learn Yau Kung Mun(YKM) or Bak Mei(BM), but there was no YKM sifu by me and I didn't want to train under the BM sifu here in NY.

Firecest Tiger is a YKM sifu in Australia and after speaking with him he agreed to take me on as a student of his. Now I train in YKM via video correspondence and I have no regrets.

I really can't speak for regular instructional tapes, because the ones I've seen lack lots of info. I would say try learning via video correspondence rather than instructional videos.

I've seen a BM insructional vid. and you really couldn't learn anything from it other than empty hand techniques. Now the power and proper body alignment(ex. luk ging, sinking, Ha Hum Batt Boy, etc...) that brings those hand techniques to life was not discussed. I guess it's safe to say that it all depends on the way the material is presented on these instructional tapes.

Sifu's tapes are made for students and not the general public, so they are very detailed. That's what you need to look for, an instructional tape thats very detailed.

In the end it's all good, as long as your happy.
Good luck!

Take care,
Buby "The YKM Gangsta

Yo Dogs ya bes chill
Cause I flip like sifu Gary and his Yau Kung Mun click, wit two kicks and three pheonix fists
Trust dukes
your gonna split from the ging running through the wrist

[MantisKungFu]

Thanks everyone for your opinions so far. I think I will try purchasing one or two videos. My question is, do you feel that are some chinese martial arts that just CAN'T be taught by video or some that might be easier? I'd be looking at possibly Wing Chun or Praying Mantis videos. Just looking for some more opinions, thanks again.

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"It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"

[Budokan]

Yeah, let us know how it turns out, and whether or not the videos are any good.

Jeez, just off the top of my head I'd say Praying Mantis and TCC would be extrememly difficult to learn exclusively from videos.

K. Mark Hoover

[Wongsifu]

the sad fact is you cant learn any kung fu from a video unless you are super human !!

my best advice is , if you want to get good , from the video learn the basics, then when you find a teacher he can correct you , for example if the tape has a form in it , learn the for in 1 -2 -3 years dont try 15 moves in one day or you will get sick and tired of it and say its rubbish, learning from a video you must pace yourself as you dont have an instructor to tell you do these 15 movements for 5 months then you learn the next 15

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo