Foot Position and Distance

[YouKnowWho]

Old CMA saying said, "If you can hide your preparation, you will be able to achieve your maximum speed". One important preparation is your foot position in relate to your opponent's foot position.

Assume both you and your opponent have right leg forward. There are 7 different ways that you and your opponent's foot can land. Your opponent's right front foot can be on the:

1. north
2. northwest
3. west
4. southwest
5. northeast
6. east
7. southeast

of your right front foot as shown in the following picture.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9274/footposition.jpg

Which foot position do you prefer and why? Hope this can be an interested discussion since it has nothing to do with style.

[PhallicWarlord]

I like "1" because we're probably still talking, and then "5" because we're walking away from each other. :D

Assuming we're not walking away, I still have always liked "5"...I'm pretty decent at getting behind people, and that position is pretty conducive to it.

Btw, hello all, long-time lurker first time poster. Intro done.

[SPJ]

I like to yield a few times first before engaging.

so it does not matter which direction of the lead leg is facing.

I am ready to move back half a step or move to the side.

I move when the opponent moves.

alternatively, I like to engage the opponent's side or back and not his front.

:)

[-N-]

There are 7 different ways that you and your opponent's foot can land. Your opponent's right front foot can be on the:

1. north
2. northwest
3. west
4. southwest
5. northeast
6. east
7. southeast


If by "land" you mean you have attacked and are setting the foot down, 7 is very typical for Mantis.

Take the outside line, go deep, take him out. Start from 5, finish at 7.

[YouKnowWho]

I agree that the "side door" approach (5 - 6 - 7) is much safer. You only have to deal with one of your opponent's arms and legs instead of both. If you can use your opponent's leading leg to jam his back leg, or his leading arm to jam his back arm then you are safe.

The "front door" approach (2 - 3 - 4) is a little bit risky but there are good reward that may go along with it. What's your strategy if you decide to choose the (2 -3 - 4) approach?

[EarthDragon]

I would always perfer # 7 for obvious reasons, attacking the side door to the upper or lower gate and covering and limiting his counter attack, while stepping at an agle to defend.
but more importantly being past my opponents center, thus allowing me to stomp into the back of his knee collasping his stance, or ba duan using my knee to slam into the side of his leg causing his knee to fold inward aganst his ACL. or countless other takedowns form this advantage position.

once I get past or under thier center the fight is basically over.

If I used # 4 I would attack high, then low, step into a crossing leg (while checking his left arm and touch knee or attack high again quickly with a ccircular clothesline around thier neck brigning them to the mat as in SoBei.

I you find yourself stepping into the same spot or equal spots as in 2, 3, 5 or 6 the odds are equal and you have no advatage perse, assuming bother of you are same skill level.

8 step has some of the most supeirior footwork of any style except of course for Bagua which hs fantasitc feet and ultimate placement.

[MightyB]

I agree that the "side door" approach (5 - 6 - 7) is much safer. You only have to deal with one of your opponent's arms and legs instead of both. If you can use your opponent's leading leg to jam his back leg, or his leading arm to jam his back arm then you are safe.

The "front door" approach (2 - 3 - 4) is a little bit risky but there are good reward that may go along with it. What's your strategy if you decide to choose the (2 -3 - 4) approach?

My master used to say (5-6-7) "Life Gate" while you're still learning, (2-3-4) "Death Gate" when you're a master.

[MightyB]

Fight Compass Vol 1 Chapter 1 Preview has a great explanation of Life Gate / Death Gate Theory: http://crazymonkeydefense.com/cmd/?page_id=89

It starts at approximately 5:30 in the video.

[Lucas]

2, 3 and 4 are pretty common, in your average life altercation.

a lot of times it starts at 1 or 2 and then moves into 3 and 4 pretty quickly. when talking about your average real life altercation. sport i think is different as you start the fight from across a room basically and get to work for position with forwarned knowledge that you are indeed fighting.

in self defense, you often have to maneuver out of those positions if you favor something else. or be comfortable working inside

[PhallicWarlord]

I agree that the "side door" approach (5 - 6 - 7) is much safer. You only have to deal with one of your opponent's arms and legs instead of both. If you can use your opponent's leading leg to jam his back leg, or his leading arm to jam his back arm then you are safe.

The "front door" approach (2 - 3 - 4) is a little bit risky but there are good reward that may go along with it. What's your strategy if you decide to choose the (2 -3 - 4) approach?

Can't say it so much for 7, but 5 and 6 are also good positions to set up a tempting opening for your opponent to attack, allowing you to set a trap.

For 2, assuming I'm on the offensive, my first move is probably going to be targeting his lead leg...most likely, it'll be a feint and, depending on his reaction, I'll try to close the gap. At 3 and especially 4, I'm going to be moving in to try and take his center...with 3 I may try to disrupt his lead leg by sweeping the instep before moving in, with 4 I'm probably going to try to step straight into him. Accompanied handwork will depend on the opponent's game and hand positioning.

[ShaolinDan]

Lol. Sorry YKW, I don't think many of the KF people here hunt for the throw the way you do. ... ... ... :)

[PhallicWarlord]

Lol. Sorry YKW, I don't think many of the KF people here hunt for the throw the way you do. ... ... ... :)

Actually, in the cases of 3 and 4 I am probably going for a takedown. In the case of 4 it's almost a certainty. But again, the opponent's game is a factor.

[-N-]

The "front door" approach (2 - 3 - 4) is a little bit risky but there are good reward that may go along with it. What's your strategy if you decide to choose the (2 -3 - 4) approach?

Piercing through very streamlined, open up the centerline, high low or low high, then finishing move. Go in decisively for the kill.

[-N-]

In taking either line, just attack. Don't bother maneuvering, setting traps, or anything protracted. Just take him out.

[YouKnowWho]

Your body angle and foot position may be more important in the throwing art than in the striking art. In the striking art, as long as your fist can hit your opponent's face and knock him down, where you land your foot may not be that important. In the throwing art, your front foot position determine whether your legs can reach to your opponent's legs or not. Also your body angle relative to your opponent may be easily for you to apply certain leg movements.

For example, if your right foot is at the 2 position, it will give you the best angle for you to sweep your opponent's right front leg with your back left leg.

[-N-]

Even for striking, we don't settle for just the fist to reach the face. We don't try to knock down with just that.

We want the footwork deep enough so that it is contacting and controlling the other person while we are striking. So the positioning is critical here as well.

We want to be deep enough to continue into throw, or strike body to body.

Classic Mantis is to blitz in then finish with a power move or throw.

[EarthDragon]

-N-


We want the footwork deep enough so that it is contacting and controlling the other person while we are striking. So the positioning is critical here as well.
We want to be deep enough to continue into throw, or strike body to body.
Classic Mantis is to blitz in then finish with a power move or throw.


In taking either line, 2-3-4 just attack. Don't bother maneuvering, setting traps, or anything protracted. Just take him out

I agree with you however in the case of 2 and 5, your foot postition is equal to your opp. no advantage here if you advance he can retreat adn thus end result is the same. I feel you must be in positions 4 or 7 to get pas his center and use infighting to over come. unless I m reading your statement incorrectly.

PS Shaolin Dan,
you should always hunt for the throw..:D

[mickey]

Greetings,

For me there is no "side door" to my opponent. Whether left or right, the "door" is the same, only the opportunities change. And I have to be ready to take full advantage of every opportunity.

mickey

[-N-]

ED,

In answering YKW's question, I focus on "preference"(statistically within the system) for where the foot lands. In getting to that position we rely on footwork to overtake the other person.

The second quote has a typo. Originally, I had wrote:


In taking either line, just attack. Don't bother maneuvering, setting traps, or anything protracted. Just take him out.

This relates to the mobility of the footwork and the attacking intent.

4 and 7 are where we want to end up. As far as the other person retreating to escape, it will come down to ability to escape vs. ability to overtake. But that's what all the training is about.

In looking solely at the different positions, and not at initiative or setup, each person has an equal advantage. And again it comes down to training.

[YouKnowWho]

in the case of 2 and 5, your foot postition is equal to your opp.

Actually among all 1 to 7 foot positions, your foot position is equal to your oppponent. Whatever that you can do to your opponent, your opponent can also do to you too. The difference may be who will have better arm control and forward body momentum.


For me there is no "side door" to my opponent. Whether left or right, the "door" is the same, only the opportunities change. And I have to be ready to take full advantage of every opportunity.
What do you mean by that? The terms "side door - outside of both arms" and "front door - between both arms" are commonly used in the striking art. The terms "4 sides - outside right leg, inside right leg, inside left leg, outside left leg" and "2 doors - front door, back door" are commonly used in the throwing art.

When you enter your opponent's

- "side door", you are also offering your "side door" to your opponent.
- "front door", you are not offering your "front door" to your opponent.

Since in CMA, "It's better to be on top than at the bottom, it's better to be inside than outside", the "front door" entry is also a good idea. You can break that "equality" between you and your opponent.


4 and 7 are where we want to end up.
Agree that most of the time, 4 and 7 are ending position and not starting position. Since both you and your opponent's front legs can reach to the other's back leg, the distance is even more closer than the normal clinching range.

[ShaolinDan]

PS Shaolin Dan,
you should always hunt for the throw..:D

:)
Yeah, so far I'm not so good at throws...take-downs no problem, but I've never managed to pull off a true throw in a 'live' situation. Trouble getting position under fire... one of a thousand things I'm working on.

[mickey]

Hi YouKnowWho,

How one fully deals with a situation, for me, is more important than the door. One can train in attack strategies and totally freeze up when it comes time to use it. I am looking more at the psychological factors more than the technical ones.

For Example:

I had a situation where I had to learn something and then, later that day, demonstrate it. At first, I was struggling with it. Then I decided to throw it all away and just do what I had to do. Was was interesting was that, once I did that, it all came back to me and I began to use it well.

mickey

[EarthDragon]

-N-, ahh gottcha, that makes sense now.

shaolin dan, thats where pratice comes in right? they say each throw a thousand times to begin understand. repitition makes it second nature

[mickey]

Greetings,

By going back to this thread and looking at the responses, I am beginning to understand what is being asked. My response really does not have much to do with it. My apologies.

mickey

[KC Elbows]

Old CMA saying said, "If you can hide your preparation, you will be able to achieve your maximum speed". One important preparation is your foot position in relate to your opponent's foot position.

Assume both you and your opponent have right leg forward. There are 7 different ways that you and your opponent's foot can land. Your opponent's right front foot can be on the:

1. north
2. northwest
3. west
4. southwest
5. northeast
6. east
7. southeast

of your right front foot as shown in the following picture.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9274/footposition.jpg

Which foot position do you prefer and why? Hope this can be an interested discussion since it has nothing to do with style.

If I understand the question, my answer would seem to depend on the situation. Assuming an equal opponent as far as technical skill, if my reach is longer, which is statistically likely, I might choose to strike as long as possible, thus facing a likelihood of 1, 2, and 5 being what I'm dealing with as long as the striking can continue, but, when that ends, 4 and 7 open some good possibilities for throwing for me, but 2, riskier though it seems, is probably the scenario I enjoy most in that case, as I feel that dealing with the seeming equality of it requires the most fluidity.

That said, the others all have their tools and goals, imo, but 2 seems to have a lot of opportunity to transition to most of the others.

What about if one fighter is southpaw, the other orthodox?

[Yum Cha]

would anybody agree that gate theory is related more to bridge fighting, than more conventional boxing/striking?

I say this, because it is the bridge, trap or whatever sticky technique that you use that gives you advantage as you move to engage a gate.

Boxers and strikers who are very mobile will keep turning on you as you move laterally without any problem, as KC and Micky seem to be pointing out, they have a different perspective. Thinking orthodox and southpaw...

You have to wait for them is my experience.

I've seen another centerline technique that is interesting defense to side movement attacks, that being to pivot on the front foot, and tracking your opponent as they move like that.

I think the gate theory introduces a good strategic concept for any fighter. Find an advantage, build the advantage, then cash it in. Don't cash in every little advantage the second you get it. Its good to have savings.

Like -N- said, Pak Mei is the same. Thin end of the wedge. Get a little advantage, build it a bit then finish hard and relentless. Of course, its not that simple, but that's the idea.

In the perfect fight, you don't get hit, and he doesn't get up. Right?

[YouKnowWho]

What about if one fighter is southpaw, the other orthodox?

If you have right leg forward when your opponent has left leg forward (mirror stance), since your centerline and your opponent's centerline have intersection, this stance may cut your attacking time in half (same for your opponent).

Since in

- unform stance (both you and your opponent has right leg forward), your right leading leg can attack the "instep" of your opponent's right leading leg, and
- mirror stance, your right leading leg can attack the "ankle" of your opponent's left leading leg,

your initial attack will be complete different.


would anybody agree that gate theory is related more to bridge fighting, than more conventional boxing/striking?
Agree that in striking art, the foot position will not be as important as in the throwing art. Since in throwing art, the foot position decide what throwing moves that you will be able to apply, it matters a lot. The throwing art use 4 sides and 2 doors concept. Assume you have right leg forward. Whether it will be easier for your right leading leg to reach the

- outside of your opponent's left leaging leg (1st side), or
- inside of your opponent's left leaging leg (2nd side), or
- inside of your opponent's right leaging leg (3rd side), or
- outside of your opponent's right leaging leg (4th side),

You will have a complete different set of moves to use. Since it's very difficult for anybody to be good at all moves, everybody will have a set of their favor moves, this make the foot position extream important in the throwing art.