Reptilian Brain

[TenTigers]

I started a new thread, so as not to hijack EM's .
Diego asked, "What is the deal with the reptile brain posture thing?. I remember reading about it years ago but forgot lol."
__________________
My understanding is that it is a part of our brain, part of our survival mechanism that has by evolution, become smaller and almost nonexistant.
However, by using certain postures, breathing, etc we can activate it.
If you look at a dog when it is going to attack, contrary to popular belief, it does not raise up, bare his teeth and growl, he gets low, hunches his back protecting his internal organs, and ready to spring.
When we tuck our sacrum, and our chin, and concave our body,bring our hands forward, and focus, we activate the reptilian mind, which I believe is connected to our fight or flight instinct.
When you stand in this posture, you feel more aggressive, ready to attack, and alert.
A common thing when playing with a partner doing paired drills, is to drop your hands after each exchange. What you are doing is shutting off your attack mode.
Instead, if you maintain your fighting posture, and eye contact-in SPM, using the hut yee sao, you will find that it switches on this mindset and your alertness, reactions, aggression increases.
Just my experience.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Obviously your reptilian brain isn't working.

If I recall, we have the human brain, the mamal brain and reptilian brain, th most instinctive and primal of all brains.
Not different brains mind you but different parts of the brain.
The medula oblongata is the source of the instinctive "reptilian" brain.

Certain posture activate this part of the brain, the "C" back posture is one of them and the most effective for a MA.

The is the slightly concaved chest posture that we see in SPM and in boxing ( yes western boxing).

[sanjuro_ronin]

LOL, we posted at the same time !

[David Jamieson]

I don't know if aggression is the right word.

Willingness is probably better. :p

[TenTigers]

well, when coupled, I suppose with the 4am training...as my teacher says, "it changes you."
One of my students, whose uncle trained SPM, also said that the training affects one "spiritually" (psychologically) and must be monitored by the Sifu to prevent jow faw yup moor, etc.

[ShaolinDan]

What about the fish brain?
They need the fight or flight mechanism too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

well, when coupled, I suppose with the 4am training...as my teacher says, "it changes you."
One of my students, whose uncle trained SPM, also said that the training affects one "spiritually" (psychologically) and must be monitored by the Sifu to prevent jow faw yup moor, etc.

Sun Dar issues?
( don't know if I am using the right term)

[Syn7]

my reptillian brain can beat up your reptillian brain...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Too much reptile brain?
http://www.besttattoosite.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Snake-Tattoo-Designs-That-Look-Great.jpg

[Dale Dugas]

Uechi Ryu has a similar structure to South Mantis.

Very aggresive style that infights.

Interesting when you think about the reptilian brain, and see that it makes physical sense.

[wenshu]

I too, learned everything I know about neurophysiology from watching The Waterboy.

[chusauli]

3 am - 5 am is the time of the Lungs in Chinese Medicine. Many Qigong/Hei gung methods were deliberately practiced at that time to "double" the benefit to the lungs.

[SanHeChuan]

My understanding is that it is a part of our brain, part of our survival mechanism that has by evolution, become smaller and almost nonexistant.


Our Reptilian brain didn't shrink; our Mammalian brains just grew around it.

[Hardwork108]

I started a new thread, so as not to hijack EM's .
Diego asked, "What is the deal with the reptile brain posture thing?. I remember reading about it years ago but forgot lol."
__________________
My understanding is that it is a part of our brain, part of our survival mechanism that has by evolution, become smaller and almost nonexistant.
However, by using certain postures, breathing, etc we can activate it.
If you look at a dog when it is going to attack, contrary to popular belief, it does not raise up, bare his teeth and growl, he gets low, hunches his back protecting his internal organs, and ready to spring.
When we tuck our sacrum, and our chin, and concave our body,bring our hands forward, and focus, we activate the reptilian mind, which I believe is connected to our fight or flight instinct.
When you stand in this posture, you feel more aggressive, ready to attack, and alert.
A common thing when playing with a partner doing paired drills, is to drop your hands after each exchange. What you are doing is shutting off your attack mode.
Instead, if you maintain your fighting posture, and eye contact-in SPM, using the hut yee sao, you will find that it switches on this mindset and your alertness, reactions, aggression increases.
Just my experience.

LOL!.....I just saw this thread, just after I asked you to expand on this concept. Great! :)

[TenTigers]

Sun Dar issues?
( don't know if I am using the right term)
you don't have to assume postures and chang san to be affected by certain training methods. In some systems, it is simply a result of the training.
When I was in my teens, I met a guy who took me through some very heavy visualizations designed to tap into this. At 145, I was able to kick through a 2x4 (against the grain) and in a situation where some guys were holding a girl against her will in their dorm room, I kicked open a steel door. I doubt I could do that now at 200 lbs. (ok, maybe..I hope) But the "training" was too weird, not to mention the guy himself was a bit...off.
RMCAT uses methods to create an adrenaline response. Perhaps a bit more down to earth.

[Jimbo]

Very interesting.
I have a friend who trained a type of martial qigong for a while many years ago. He said that he began to develop a lot of power in his hands, beyond what he would have normally been capable of. But he said that after awhile he began to "lose compassion" and that his personality began to change in a negative way. He quit the practice. Later, he mentioned this to another practitioner, and this person told him that this practice required very careful instruction and guidance over a long period of time; otherwise, some people might become 'psychotic'.

Anyway, that's what he told me. I tend to believe my friend, because he's very practical-minded and has a pretty good BS meter. Yet he maintains that the practice wasn't worth the potential risks.

[taaigihk]

I'm sure that this 腰圆-背弓-头顶天/yao yuan-bei gong-tou ding tian (round lower back, arched upper back, head presses against the sky) concept is quite common amongst northern styles (some at least). Not only SPM. It gives you more strength (whole body strength), this forward drive and a bit of animal-like attitude. :)

[mickey]

Greetings,

When you are training the reptile brain, you are also training the adrenal response. It is important for one to be aware of this.

mickey

[Gowgee]

3 am - 5 am is the time of the Lungs in Chinese Medicine. Many Qigong/Hei gung methods were deliberately practiced at that time to "double" the benefit to the lungs.

Robert, out of interest, what are these times based on: the person's biorhythm based on when he wakes up/sleeps/activity, the earth and heaven chi around one at that time of day? Would be very interested in any insights you wouldn't mind sharing.

[sanjuro_ronin]

you don't have to assume postures and chang san to be affected by certain training methods. In some systems, it is simply a result of the training.
When I was in my teens, I met a guy who took me through some very heavy visualizations designed to tap into this. At 145, I was able to kick through a 2x4 (against the grain) and in a situation where some guys were holding a girl against her will in their dorm room, I kicked open a steel door. I doubt I could do that now at 200 lbs. (ok, maybe..I hope) But the "training" was too weird, not to mention the guy himself was a bit...off.
RMCAT uses methods to create an adrenaline response. Perhaps a bit more down to earth.

Yeah, I know where you are coming from.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Very interesting.
I have a friend who trained a type of martial qigong for a while many years ago. He said that he began to develop a lot of power in his hands, beyond what he would have normally been capable of. But he said that after awhile he began to "lose compassion" and that his personality began to change in a negative way. He quit the practice. Later, he mentioned this to another practitioner, and this person told him that this practice required very careful instruction and guidance over a long period of time; otherwise, some people might become 'psychotic'.

Anyway, that's what he told me. I tend to believe my friend, because he's very practical-minded and has a pretty good BS meter. Yet he maintains that the practice wasn't worth the potential risks.

This "state" has been tested and analyised over the years, there is enough "evidence" that it exists and that certain people should not be trained in it or in it's methods.
I think that "loss of compassion" is a pretty good way to sum it up in the early stages, it goes way beyond that in the latter stages.
"Killer instinct" is a very basic way to put it.
To bring out our "inner reptile" is not something that the majority of people shoudl do, a very small percentage can walk that fine line between "both worlds" but most either drop it when they feel the "evil" or they get consumed by it.

[David Jamieson]

Ok Erle M (rip) is not a good source for this information as he was basically glomming the legitimate work of Dr.Paul D.MacLean who was the actual person who proposed the triune brain theory which was inclusive of the reptilian complex, the limbic system, and the neocortex.

credit where credit is due.

[TenTigers]

yes, but EM brought it to the forefront of western internal Martial Arts.
"Good writers borrow, great writers steal."
"If you take form one source, it's called plagerism.
If you take from several sources, it's called research."

[David Jamieson]

yes, but EM brought it to the forefront of western internal Martial Arts.
"Good writers borrow, great writers steal."
"If you take form one source, it's called plagerism.
If you take from several sources, it's called research."

I agree in the case of fiction. But as he had no background in neuroscience, where Dr.MacLean did, his musings at best were shot in the dark and had no actual foundational proof of concept because ....well, EM was musing and is not a neuroscientist.

I will take real science over any layman's musings almost 100% of the time.
Call me negative if you will, but I cannot accept much where the work cannot be shown.

:)

[bawang]

This "state" has been tested and analyised over the years, there is enough "evidence" that it exists and that certain people should not be trained in it or in it's methods.
I think that "loss of compassion" is a pretty good way to sum it up in the early stages, it goes way beyond that in the latter stages.
"Killer instinct" is a very basic way to put it.
To bring out our "inner reptile" is not something that the majority of people shoudl do, a very small percentage can walk that fine line between "both worlds" but most either drop it when they feel the "evil" or they get consumed by it.

can u tell me more about super reptilian evil qigong pls
i wana b evil reptilian IMAGINE THE POWER

[Lucas]

can u tell me more about super reptilian evil qigong pls
i wana b evil reptilian imagine the power

you cant handle the power man, its just toooo much!

[wenshu]

The Triune Brain hypothesis was disproved years ago.

The qi gong discussed above sounds more like a conditioned endocrine response.

[MasterKiller]

I will take real science over any layman's musings almost 100% of the time.
Call me negative if you will, but I cannot accept much where the work cannot be shown.

*points finger at DJ being Christian and laughs*

[sanjuro_ronin]

can u tell me more about super reptilian evil qigong pls
i wana b evil reptilian IMAGINE THE POWER

Of all the people here, you would be the last, why?
Because you'd be the best candidate to venture to the dark side and open up a chain of KFC's over there !!

[bawang]

isnt being cold calculating and devoid of compassion normal everday life for chilese people? why u need evil qigong to train the evilness? my mom does that and she made me the man i am today.

*gives distant cho seung hui look


home video of me and mom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUsixfMLMUM&feature=related
it was magical moment i wil treasure forever

[Lucas]

I thought DJ was one of those athiest things.

[David Jamieson]

I thought DJ was one of those athiest things.

Not at all. lol.

[Lucas]

Oh thats right, I forgot. You're a Scientologist right?

[Syn7]

Oh thats right, I forgot. You're a Scientologist right?

oh gawd i hope not...

on a side note... i love that bbc doc on scientology where the bbc reporter just loses it on one of the heads of the church... he was foaming at the mouth and making inhuman noises, it was crazy... they got to him for a minute... im sure the effect surpassed their expectations... not that the scientologists didnt have their own lil blow up moments... but not like this one...

[Syn7]

home video of me and mom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUsixfMLMUM&feature=related
it was magical moment i wil treasure forever

translation:
did you leave dishes in the sink

no mamma, it wasnt me i swear


bullsh1t, SLAP, where those your dishes


yes momma im so sorry

LIAR SLAP SLAP SLAP NOW KICK THE BAG TILL YOUR LEGS BLEED


yes momma im sorry momma







she make you trong!


and clean.............

[David Jamieson]

lol, scientologists aren't Christian.

Their god is a galactic overlord named Xenu.

[Syn7]

lol, scientologists aren't Christian.

Their god is a galactic overlord named Xenu.

apparently they take offence to that now... lol... odd bunch...


are you a christian david? catholic maybe??? im a baptized catholoic but non practicing for many many moons... im a bit of an agnostic i think, with a bit of room for small leaps of faith on very rare occasions... but thats just today, who knows about tomorrow... i mean, i hope i'll evolve till im dead... in the right directions tho... wouldnt wanna end up being some evolutionary cul de sac...

[David Jamieson]

Hmmn.

Why are you so interested in my personal belief system. lol
It's not as if my beliefs have any weight on yours.
I have no new insights into spirituality and no methods for spiritual attainment that are not already available.

But, yes, I'm a christian. Yes I believe in God.
Good enough? :p

[kristcaldwell]

it's important to know so that all of the open-minded people who talk about "coexisting" can belittle and make fun of you.

[Yum Cha]

I've never come across this before, but I know the phenomenon from the Pak Mei training.

We obviously use the curved back posture, but we have another range of aggression training as well, through the wind-sprint training of the forms, and visualisation. This gives me a bit of insight to work on. Thanks lads.

I see it happen as you train a fighter to drift away from the bouncy of side-on posture, or a lead hand, and train them to fight square, the aggression goes up, actually, half aggression-half confidence...

And dead set, that posture is good for fighting, covering the chest meridians, elbows can drop to protect, or raise to guard, chest is at an angle to deflect strikes and shots... There's definitely something to it. Iron body on top....

And the question about 4am training....
To my understanding, there are times of day in the cycle when certain meridians, (associated with the 5 elements) are at their height of cycles, or bottom (hotter or colder?). That early morning part is the lungs, for example.
This is part of dim mak training as well, knowing which element is in its prime, or at its weakest, given a time of day....

BTW, I start at 5am, and don't feel like I'm missing the sweet spot.

There is another sweet spot after 11pm, in the 5 element perspective, if I'm not mistaken, for hei gung training.
Anybody really up on the 5 elements and time of day thingy?

BTW, you don't have to be a TCMA wanker to know the mornings and night time are glorious for training...<grin>

Western science has circadian rhythms whereby people set their own biological clock through behaviour, I can certainly see how the two perspectives could co-exist.

[Syn7]

But, yes, I'm a christian. Yes I believe in God.
Good enough? :p

yeah, totally... just cutious... thanx...

[Syn7]

in bak mei we learned that you dont curve your spine when you use the hollow chest posture... i think i heard someone call it monkey chest, but cant remember if that was at bak mei or elsewhere...

[Yum Cha]

in bak mei we learned that you dont curve your spine when you use the hollow chest posture... i think i heard someone call it monkey chest, but cant remember if that was at bak mei or elsewhere...

Think of this. Your relaxed position with the concave chest. A roll of the shoulders that sets the spine against the pelvic tilt.

As you move, you rise and fall, swallow and spit - the coiling and uncoiling is dynamic.

make sense?

[RenDaHai]

THis may be interesting to some of you;

WHilst living in China I trained in a style called Xin Yi Quan (NOT xinG yi). If any of you have ever played the videogame 'Dead or Alive' the character 'Gen' uses this style.

ANyway, before engaging in combat they taught 'Wen Feng'...To taste the wind. You literally take a large sniff and SMELL your opponent in an intimidating gesture. They believe this gets one in touch with ones instinct and after smelling the opponant you will immediatly be put into fight or flight mode and you will know instinctively whether this is a battle you can win or not. SOunds a bit crazy huh?

However I later discovered on reading into some neuroscience that the sense of smell directly goes through the REPTILLIAN BRAIN. And there are subconcious smelling abilities that we humans posess. FOr example one peer reviewed study noted that women could actually smell fear. By making women smell the armpit odur of women who had just watched a scary movie controlled against those who had just watched a normal movie and the vast majority were able to smell the fear....literally (Sorry for no having the reference of this paper, but if you google it you will find it before long, I belive the researcher was a 'Denise Chen' of Rice University in Housten).

ANyway, perhaps the ancient XINYI practicioners were correct, and deliberately smelling the opponant ( and focusing on the odur) does connect you with your 'Murderous intent' (ShaQi or ShaXin, another importent part of XInYIQUan, but absent in styles like shaolin, for good reson).


THE TIGERS BACK, THe back position you are talking about is common to ALL styles in northern china without any exception that I have encountered. It is especially prominant in Shaolin and you will quickly sort between the performance people and the traditional by looking at the way they hold themselves. THis is important for many reasons and yes is also common to western boxing. Although i don't beleive this affects instinct, it is simply sensible to protect the organs. It worth noting it doesnt violate the kung fu principle of keeping the spine straight. The spine is still mostly straight, but the shoulder blades rotate forwards and 'close' the abdomen.

[wenshu]

Very interesting, except for the fact that outside of reptiles there is no such thing as the 'reptilian brain'.

[RenDaHai]

@Wenshu

It comes from the 'Triune Brain' a model of the evolution of the human brain proposed in the 60's. Although not the currently accepted model it is widely appreciated. The brain is in 3 definate sections that evolved in definte epochs and the 'reptillian' part shares many features with that of a reptiles brain. It is heavily involved in unconcious Primitive body functions. The correct scientific term is the 'BASAL GANGLIA'. Or as we are refferring to it, the R-complex, the reptillian brain. Why? Cause it sounds cooler.

[SanHeChuan]

ANyway, before engaging in combat they taught 'Wen Feng'...To taste the wind. You literally take a large sniff and SMELL your opponent in an intimidating gesture. They believe this gets one in touch with ones instinct and after smelling the opponant you will immediatly be put into fight or flight mode and you will know instinctively whether this is a battle you can win or not. SOunds a bit crazy huh?


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2047z_kotc-charles-bennet-vs-buddy-clinto

[RenDaHai]

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2047z_kotc-charles-bennet-vs-buddy-clinto

Ahahahah, fantastic.

Perhaps he smelt he was going to lose and just couldn't fight. :D

[wenshu]

@Wenshu

It comes from the 'Triune Brain' a model of the evolution of the human brain proposed in the 60's. Although not the currently accepted model it is widely appreciated. The brain is in 3 definate sections that evolved in definte epochs and the 'reptillian' part shares many features with that of a reptiles brain. It is heavily involved in unconcious Primitive body functions. The correct scientific term is the 'BASAL GANGLIA'. Or as we are refferring to it, the R-complex, the reptillian brain. Why? Cause it sounds cooler.

I'm familiar with the theory. It hasn't been considered accurate in evolutionary developmental theory or paleontology since the advent of modern neuro-imaging techniques.

The only place it still holds sway is popular culture.


The basal ganglia are present in all vertebrates, and so their evolution probably substantially predates the emergence of reptiles. Similarly, brain structures included in the paleomammalian complex are not unique to mammals, and many non-mammalian vertebrates display the nurturing and child-rearing behaviors attributed to it. Sauropsids, a classification encompassing birds, reptiles, and dinosaurs, were all subsequently discovered to have brain structures similar in function to what MacLean called the neomammalian complex, which indicates that the evolution of these structures also predates the evolution of mammals. Sophisticated mental abilities once thought to be exclusive to mammals, such as toolmaking, are also present in some species of birds.

[RenDaHai]

@wenshu

Yeah, fair enough.

Still, it does sound cooler than Basal ganglia :D

ANyway the Basal Ganglia is the location associated with 'ACTION SELECTION' and emotion which is what i believe we are interested in for its martial application. To be honest I am generally happier using Scientific terms, but Reptillian brain was the title of the thread and i figured we all know what it means. Basal Ganglia it is!

[wenshu]

Dude, check the signature.

[wenshu]

What you guys are really talking about is something more along the lines of neuroendocrinology:

Hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12377295)

[RenDaHai]

Dude, check the signature.

Wonderful!

I especially like how you have coordinated the studies with the appropriate characters.

[RenDaHai]

What you guys are really talking about is something more along the lines of neuroendocrinology:

Hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12377295)

THis is certainly a major part of it, but not quite on the button. I believe the most important step we should be interested in is the 'decision'. Once the decision to fight or to run away has been made definately there is nothing left to think about and you can carry out the actions, of course still being subject to the stress responses. Never the less it is the decision on dedicating to combat or not that is the vital step.

For example a single Lion can cause an entire herd of Bison to scatter, even though each of them are capable of taking him on. Once they have committed to the 'Prey' response they are largely locked into that sequence of actions, irrespective of their stress responses. HOwever sometimes they do make the decision of defense, and sometimes the decision of attack which makes them very formidable. There is a famous video where a lion takes a calf, and then the bisons actually move into attack mode and butt the lion sending it literally flying and then continue to give chase.

Its this decision that is the key element that turns these creature from helpless and accepting death into predators themselves. That decision making process is of more interest than the response of the body to the stress then induced.

Neuroscience is not my major, but I beleive the Basal ganglia is important in this kind of Action selection which then initiatiates response sequences. But I would love to know in more detail the process within the brain?

[David Jamieson]

it's important to know so that all of the open-minded people who talk about "coexisting" can belittle and make fun of you.

I can be problematic in that respect, because I am also a buddhist and have converted reform to judaism at one point, which by default also makes me a jew. :)

On top of all that, I am a Freemason!

So, pick your target, I'm covered in them.
I guess the cool part is that there is no conflict in my beliefs and they serve me in my daily life.

Also, huge respect for the religio-philosophies of Taoism and Confucianism and despite the depth and expansiveness of Hinduism, there is much of value to be found there as well.

Start shooting! I got cheeks to turn! :D

[wenshu]

you have coordinated the studies with the appropriate characters.

Yeah, the findings don't really mean anything specific other than that a connection exists between the activation of the basal ganglia during 坐禅 and the basal ganglia's role in the execution of movement.


THis is certainly a major part of it, but not quite on the button. I believe the most important step we should be interested in is the 'decision'. Once the decision to fight or to run away has been made definately there is nothing left to think about and you can carry out the actions, of course still being subject to the stress responses. Never the less it is the decision on dedicating to combat or not that is the vital step.


Not just the decision, but as you mentioned previously, the intent, or 杀气. I understand this is a pretty major area of study regarding these structures in the brain.

[David Jamieson]

The brain model of triune is still somewhat accepted.

With survival insitinct and motor skills, involuntary maintenance being attributed to the "reptilian complex" and the limbic system while social skills and higher thinking being given to the neo-cortex which is the large outer layer of the brain.

These days, knowledge of teh brain and it's function changes with every publication of the Lancet or journal of neuroscience though it seems. :p

[Syn7]

Think of this. Your relaxed position with the concave chest. A roll of the shoulders that sets the spine against the pelvic tilt.

As you move, you rise and fall, swallow and spit - the coiling and uncoiling is dynamic.

make sense?

oh yeah i understood it right away when i was taught... the only thing i cant remember is the name monkey chest, if thats right or not...

but yeah, i love the whole concept... when you get good at it you can feel the difference... up down in out... but ur head doesnt really change height... feels good... a good example of that is jik bo actually... that whole foreward step really embodies that principle... well, atleast thats how i was taught... feels good when you get it right the first time...

[Syn7]

@Wenshu

It comes from the 'Triune Brain' a model of the evolution of the human brain proposed in the 60's. Although not the currently accepted model it is widely appreciated. The brain is in 3 definate sections that evolved in definte epochs and the 'reptillian' part shares many features with that of a reptiles brain. It is heavily involved in unconcious Primitive body functions. The correct scientific term is the 'BASAL GANGLIA'. Or as we are refferring to it, the R-complex, the reptillian brain. Why? Cause it sounds cooler.

well said man... sweeeeet........

[Syn7]

I can be problematic in that respect, because I am also a buddhist and have converted reform to judaism at one point, which by default also makes me a jew. :)

On top of all that, I am a Freemason!

So, pick your target, I'm covered in them.
I guess the cool part is that there is no conflict in my beliefs and they serve me in my daily life.

Also, huge respect for the religio-philosophies of Taoism and Confucianism and despite the depth and expansiveness of Hinduism, there is much of value to be found there as well.

Start shooting! I got cheeks to turn! :D

thats pretty sweet if you can be all that without any conflict at all... good on ya, i say... i wasnt asking to rail at you about it or anything...



ok so are the most basic functions in the center or bottom or isolated somewhat and as it grows outward the more complex functions are formed??? as the brain got bigger it grew in a sort of layers as opposed to getting bigger and more complex all the way thru??? do you guys know what im asking? i am no med student, im not sure of the proper terminology to phrase my question...

[wenshu]

The brain model of triune is still somewhat accepted.

With survival insitinct and motor skills, involuntary maintenance being attributed to the "reptilian complex" and the limbic system while social skills and higher thinking being given to the neo-cortex which is the large outer layer of the brain.

These days, knowledge of teh brain and it's function changes with every publication of the Lancet or journal of neuroscience though it seems. :p

There have been instances of damage to the so called "limbic" system that resulted in higher cognitive dysfunction.

Even the limbic distinction is being challenged.

If it is still accepted, it isn't by neuro-scientists.

[David Jamieson]

There have been instances of damage to the so called "limbic" system that resulted in higher cognitive dysfunction.

Even the limbic distinction is being challenged.

If it is still accepted, it isn't by neuro-scientists.

mmm, I said somewhat, as in, there clearly are three physical and different layers to the brain.

what they do, is also "somewhat" known. :)

[David Jamieson]

thats pretty sweet if you can be all that without any conflict at all... good on ya, i say... i wasnt asking to rail at you about it or anything...



ok so are the most basic functions in the center or bottom or isolated somewhat and as it grows outward the more complex functions are formed??? as the brain got bigger it grew in a sort of layers as opposed to getting bigger and more complex all the way thru??? do you guys know what im asking? i am no med student, im not sure of the proper terminology to phrase my question...

my knowledge comes from psych class. I'm not a med student either I just wanted to spend 9 months analyzing myself and then a couple of more years alienating my friends by telling them what was wrong with them. :D

anyway... there is still a lot of theory as to how we came about having this lump of magnificent jelly inside our skulls.

I heard one that said our brain grew from our intake of sea food at the same time as we lost our thickness in our hair from being in the water a lot for protection. (we still have the same and in some cases superior follicle count to most primates.)

Also, the dna and cells that we exchanged for the brain used to be our tails.

But who knows. Could of all be done in a flash of light by a fish with a beard right?

[Syn7]

my knowledge comes from psych class. I'm not a med student either I just wanted to spend 9 months analyzing myself and then a couple of more years alienating my friends by telling them what was wrong with them. :D

anyway... there is still a lot of theory as to how we came about having this lump of magnificent jelly inside our skulls.

I heard one that said our brain grew from our intake of sea food at the same time as we lost our thickness in our hair from being in the water a lot for protection. (we still have the same and in some cases superior follicle count to most primates.)

Also, the dna and cells that we exchanged for the brain used to be our tails.

But who knows. Could of all be done in a flash of light by a fish with a beard right?

oh look, another psych dropout... how unique... :p


tails huh... interesting... all i know about the brain is stuff from magazines and documentaries... well, and limited anatomy from highschool, if you even want to count that... ive learned 5 times as much just by paying attention since then:D

[David Jamieson]

oh look, another psych dropout... how unique... :p


tails huh... interesting... all i know about the brain is stuff from magazines and documentaries... well, and limited anatomy from highschool, if you even want to count that... ive learned 5 times as much just by paying attention since then:D

well, when you want to learn there is a whole different thing going on than when you have to...

and all that. :)

[wenshu]

mmm, I said somewhat, as in, there clearly are three physical and different layers to the brain.

what they do, is also "somewhat" known. :)

neuroanatomy fail.

[David Jamieson]

neuroanatomy fail.

you disagree?

The r-complex, the limbic system and the neo-cortex are no longer recognized?
How so?

I mean, names change and functions get discovered, but:
http://www.schoolofwisdom.com/ChanceandChoice/brain.jpg

There's halves and individual parts, but still seems to be the three layers going on.
So...

[wenshu]

you disagree?

The r-complex, the limbic system and the neo-cortex are no longer recognized?
How so?

I mean, names change and functions get discovered, but:
http://www.schoolofwisdom.com/ChanceandChoice/brain.jpg

There's halves and individual parts, but still seems to be the three layers going on.
So...

Where did you get that outdated, over-simplified abstraction? A 30 year old community college popular psychology 101 textbook?

The structures of the forebrain have a far more complicated relationship with the higher cognitive functions traditionally ascribed solely to the neocortex; the brain does not function as some top down hierarchical abstraction.



One World, Many Minds: Intelligence in the Animal Kingdom
Scientific American Dec 2008


Many people believe that a component of the human brain inherited from reptilian ancestors is responsible for our species’ aggression, ritual behaviors and territoriality.

One of the most common misconceptions about brain evolution is that it represents a linear process culminating in the amazing cognitive powers of humans, with the brains of other modern species representing previous stages. Such ideas have even influenced the thinking of neuroscientists and psychologists who compare the brains of different species used in biomedical research. Over the past 30 years, however, research in comparative neuroanatomy clearly has shown that complex brains—and sophisticated cognition—have evolved from simpler brains multiple times independently in separate lineages, or evolutionarily related groups: in mollusks such as octopuses, squid and cuttlefish; in bony fishes such as goldfish and, separately again, in cartilaginous fishes such as sharks and manta rays; and in reptiles and birds. Nonmammals have demonstrated advanced abilities such as learning by copying the behavior of others, finding their way in complicated spatial environments, manufacturing and using tools, and even conducting mental time travel (remembering specific past episodes or anticipating unique future events). Collectively, these findings are helping scientists to understand how intelligence can arise—and to appreciate the many forms it can take.

The Tree of Life
To understand why a new view of the evolution of brains and minds is only now coming to full fruition, it is useful to review historical notions. Medieval naturalists placed living things along a linear scale called the great chain of beings, or scala naturae. This hierarchical sequence ranked creatures such as worms and slugs as lowly and humans as the highest of earthly beings. In the late 1800s the enormous mass of evidence contained in Charles Darwin’s masterwork, On the Origin of Species, convinced most of his scientific contemporaries that evolution was a reality. Darwin explained that modern species were related by physical descent and saw the relations among species as resembling the diverging branches of a family genealogical tree. Few, however, fully grasped the revolutionary implications of this tree of life—in which modern species represent the tips of the branches and inner branches represent past species, forming junctions where two lineages branch from a common ancestor.

So when comparative neuroanatomy first blossomed at the end of the 19th century, most researchers interpreted its findings in terms of the old linear scale. They believed modern invertebrates (animals without backbones), fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, mammals and humans to be living representatives of successive evolutionary steps toward a more complex brain, with new brain components added at each step. Given the relative lack of interest in comparative neuroanatomy during the mid-20th century, these ideas persisted unchallenged for decades. The traditional ideas about sequential brain evolution appeared, for example, in the late neuroscientist and psychiatrist Paul D. MacLean’s triune brain model, formulated in the 1960s. Mac*Lean’s model promoted the belief that the human brain contains a “reptilian complex” inherited from reptilian ancestors.

Beginning in the 1980s, the field of comparative neuroanatomy experienced a renaissance. In the intervening decades evolutionary biologists had learned a great deal about vertebrate evolutionary history, and they developed new and effective methods of applying Darwin’s concept of the tree of life to analyze and interpret their findings. It is now apparent that a simple linear hierarchy cannot adequately account for the evolution of brains or of intelligence. The oldest known multicellular animal fossils are about 700 million years old. By the Cambrian period, about 520 million years ago, the animal kingdom had branched into about 35 major groups, or phyla, each with its own distinctive body plan. As a separate branch of the tree of life, each lineage continued to evolve and diversify independently of the others. Complex brains evolved independently in multiple phyla, notably among the cephalopod mollusks of the phylum Mollusca and, of course, among various groups of vertebrates. Vertebrate evolution has likewise involved repeated branching, with complex brains evolving from simpler brains independently along numerous branches.

[wenshu]

The limbic system: a review of its empirical foundation
Rolf Kotter and Niels Meyer (http://www.utdallas.edu/~tres/plasticity2009/Kotter.1992.pdf)



The limbic system is not a piece of nature given to
us. It is just one out of many scientific concepts. From
an empirical point of view this concept is not adequate
and there is nothing to justify its continuing use in a
general and indiscriminate sense.
Other and better scientific concepts have to be put
forward and to be considered. The analysis of Medline
shows that the limbic system does not constitute the
only explanatory concept in respect to the brain struc-
tures and functions involved in the limbic system. For
example the hippocampus and with it the functions of
memory have to a large extent emancipated from the
limbic system concept, and we may believe that we
begin to understand them to some extent. The hypo-
thalamus, some olfactory structures, and the gyrus cin-
guli remain more closely linked to the limbie system and
with them the workings of emotions, the presumably
primitive and savage functions ofolfaction, and the key
concepts to their surgical control. These areas seem to
be far more puzzling. It is of interest to note that the
limbic system represents particularly those areas in
brain research which are poorly understood.
It may turn out that the limbic system becomes more
and more obsolete as our knowledge increases. But so
far it has a very important role to play: it meets our need
and desire for explanatory concepts in the neuro-
sciences which is reflected in the influence that the lim-
bic system has on many areas in the neurosciences. The
reasons for its explanatory power cannot be found in
its empirical foundation. But there are other non-
empirical features which we should be aware of and
which repeatedly occur in many of the different crite-
ria which we have listed. The concepts of the closed
circuit, of the balanced functions, and of the hierarchi-
cal processing are prominent. The corresponding sym-
bols of the circle, the balance and the ladder have served
for a long time in explaining the unexplained. It is no
accident that the greatest mysteries in our understand-
ing of the brain remain with the limbie system: ques-
tions concerning the integration of all brain functions,
the generation of consciousness or psyche, and finally
the seat of the soul. The struggle with these questions
has found an expression in the multi-faceted and con-
troversial concept which is called the limbic system.
"The term, however, is simple and enjoys universal
recognition: everyone thinks he knows what is meant
when he hears it ''7z.

[David Jamieson]

Well, I can only guess that the journal of neuroscience, neuroscience in general and other various publications for the field of neuroscience are negligent in keeping information up to date?
:p

I'm a reader.

And everything you just quoted tells me there is still a lot of sniffing around going on and very little in the way of certainty about this. Lots of theory and concepts and some in conflict...

Meh, as long as they can stop bleeding, remove foreign objects and close the wound and healing takes place, that's good enough. :)

[Syn7]

well, when you want to learn there is a whole different thing going on than when you have to...

and all that. :)

yeah i dropped out in grade 9 and went back when i was 17 and did the rest of 9 10 11 and 12 in less than a year and a half at self paced school... but its a regular diploma, none of that ged or adult dogwood bullsh1t... when i was in real HS i was like a c+ student, which was pretty good since i had like 30% attendance... but my final transcripts are high B's and A's... so yeah, i'd say wanting to be there makes the difference...

[bawang]

yeah i dropped out in grade 9 and went back when i was 17 and did the rest of 9 10 11 and 12 in less than a year and a half at self paced school... but its a regular diploma, none of that ged or adult dogwood bullsh1t... when i was in real HS i was like a c+ student, which was pretty good since i had like 30% attendance... but my final transcripts are high B's and A's... so yeah, i'd say wanting to be there makes the difference...

you are a man of great honor. you must have very hairy chest and pubis

[TenTigers]

the dna and cells that we exchanged for the brain used to be our tails.


well, that explains alot about alot of people....

"used to ...?"

[Lucas]

I didnt trade mine in, I use my tail for climbing and other stuff.