Wooden Dummies

[ShortBridge]

Hello, this is my first post, but I have been reading these forums for a while and I don't think this has been covered, but please point me to the thread if it has.

I'm curious of the origins of wooden dummies in Kung Fu training. I believe that the wing chun style dummy is also used in Choy Li Fut and White Eyebrow. I think I've seen references to it in other styles too, but I'm not clear. Is anyone an expert on this topic?

I'm curious if it is southern tool/method exclusively or if it was just way more common across kung fu than I realized.

I'm also aware that there are other type of pole/dummy structures, like the 3 or 4 trunk dummies that I've seen in some southern mantis videos and in certain less well known branches of wing chun.

But, my interest in the history and pervasiveness of dummy training exceeds my knowledge about it and I thought I'd see what I could learn by asking the question.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

JRB

[Violent Designs]

CLF dummy and WC dummy are opposite in design.

[mantis108]

Well, this is a huge topic. One can easily write an entire book on it. According to legend, the Wooden Dummy training as found in the Southern arts originated with the Southern Shaolin Temple. It is said that there were 108 designs of the wooden "men". In a way, it more like rudimentary robotics designs. But then this is only a legend.

Another theory claims that the Wooden Men is actually the center pole found within the plum flower pole formation of 108 poles. However, there is a small scale plum flower pole formation that consists of only 11 poles. 9 tall poles are arranged in the 9 palace formation with 2 short poles planted in front of the center pole in the manner of the Wing Chun kicking poles design. This design of plum flower pole contains 3 different levels of training - Haven, Earth and Man. Man training is hitting of the center pole which has now evolved into Wooden dummy training. So in essence, plum flower pole and wooden dummy training are not mutually exclusive, which means they likely have the same origin.

Hope this helps.

Mantis108

[David Jamieson]

training devices that imitate the height, weight and resitance of an opponent are a logical development for combat training in virtually all cultures.

Europeans had all sorts of interesting weapons dummies, wooden men, armoured sword dummies, swinging arm dummies that would hit you if you didn't move etc etc.

One device in particular was the Pell.

About being "on the pell" (I will bold the salient points :) )

A pell offers a sturdy, resistant target that a fighter can use to hit with his weapon and slam his shield into. He can also place his shield against it while the sword passes forward to simultaneously execute a combination attack. Cuts, thrusts, slices, and hilt strikes can all be practiced with strength. The shield in particular can hit and smack out at the pell in a manner that would be unsafe in a live two-person drill. These actions along with shield blocking are the primary movements performed in training against a pell. As a stationary target, a pell has limitations after all and it obviously never hits back—but then, it never complains you’ve hit too hard either. Today, the pell is popular among many historical fencing students and Medieval combat reenactors where it’s once more being used to exercise and teach beginners targeting and strength in striking as well as attack combinations. Interestingly, even Medieval fighting enthusiasts entirely unfamiliar with the fact that pells were historically used have been known to construct their own stick fighting targets out of old tires, punching bags, and rolled up old carpet.

so, it is a device that aids in training use of strength and force against resistance and without bringing harm to a training partner.

The side effect with wooden men is that you will toughen up with the use of them over time.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Anyone have some comparison pics of these 'dummies'? And no I'm not asking for someone to post up my pic....

Dave do you have any pictures or links to some of the European ones? I'm a bit curious.

[David Jamieson]

Anyone have some comparison pics of these 'dummies'? And no I'm not asking for someone to post up my pic....

Dave do you have any pictures or links to some of the European ones? I'm a bit curious.

yep, here's some pics:


Pell training (with a bust on top!)
http://www.thearma.org/spotlight/pell.jpg

an enthusiasts modern version
http://www.thearma.org/essays/FinalPell.jpg

another enthusiasts modern version of a pell
http://www.kendallgiles.com/images/pell3.jpg

13th-14th century
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/pell/13th-14thc.jpeg

carried forward in time
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/pell/sabrepell.jpg

15th century
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/pell/pell-woodcut.jpg

It is worthy of note that the skills of a battle knight were abandoned in the west with the advent of better technologies. These types of training are for preservation of historical art forms and knowledge of ancient military.

Nowadays, a stack of tires is great for blade training.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Like Dave said, wooden training "dummies" are older than the hills on Granny's chest and twice as dusty.
Pretty much every system of armed combat had them, I think would may have made the "kung fu" ones unique is that they were used for unarmed combat.

[ShortBridge]

Thanks for the responses, guys. I knew some, but certainly not all of that.

[LoneTiger108]

Well, this is a huge topic. One can easily write an entire book on it. According to legend, the Wooden Dummy training as found in the Southern arts originated with the Southern Shaolin Temple. It is said that there were 108 designs of the wooden "men". In a way, it more like rudimentary robotics designs. But then this is only a legend.

Another theory claims that the Wooden Men is actually the center pole found within the plum flower pole formation of 108 poles. However, there is a small scale plum flower pole formation that consists of only 11 poles. 9 tall poles are arranged in the 9 palace formation with 2 short poles planted in front of the center pole in the manner of the Wing Chun kicking poles design. This design of plum flower pole contains 3 different levels of training - Haven, Earth and Man. Man training is hitting of the center pole which has now evolved into Wooden dummy training. So in essence, plum flower pole and wooden dummy training are not mutually exclusive, which means they likely have the same origin.

Hope this helps.

Mantis108

:)

Probably one of the most relevant posts I've read on this forum about the origins of the mook jong, or as I know it mui faa jong.

Legend, folklore or not, it's nice to see others who have heard of similar stories as myself for once!

[hskwarrior]

Wing Chun dummy
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Wooden-dummy.jpg/220px-Wooden-dummy.jpg

Choy Lee Fut dummy
http://h2hmartialarts.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/Web_Choy_Li_Fut.303123329_std.jpg

Bak Mei wooden Dummy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Mc1Kv1mGY
(this guy is one of my original students)

Hung Kuen wooden dummy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sADTeh4A32M&NR=1&feature=fvwp

[LoneTiger108]

Nice clips, but your man there looks like he will do himself some damage if he trains with a posture like that for too long :eek:

I found the Hung Kuen clip quite interesting, but again the guy will only get injured striking wood with such postures and attempted power generation imho.

Actually, you might find this interesting. One of the best evolutions of chigerk I have seen to date. Kind of!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBDAprhIjAo

[hskwarrior]

Nice clips, but your man there looks like he will do himself some damage if he trains with a posture like that for too long

well, in CLF we have a more straight posture, what you see him doing is how bak mei does it.

[Phil Redmond]

Bak Mei wooden Dummy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Mc1Kv1mGY
(this guy is one of my original students)
That clip looks like it was done in his school. The floors and mirrors are the same.
I've seen this Sifu's DVDs. What's his name?

[Phil Redmond]

I found his name. Zhong Luo

[hskwarrior]

it his studio.....my old student trains with HIM now.

[hskwarrior]

Same guy in the video (doing the dummy) is in THIS video training under me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ4d7p5JTY0

[Phil Redmond]

it his studio.....my old student trains with HIM now.
OK, thanks. That was a pretty impressive dummy form. One of my close friends http://www.grandfatherofrap.com/ did Bak Mei before he moved to Paris. I always liked the style.

[goju]

some karateka make use of a dummy as well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kDoIkAVLAY

[ShortBridge]

Bak Mei wooden Dummy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3Mc1Kv1mGY
(this guy is one of my original students)


Wow, thanks for sharing those. I'm slowly getting a more complete picture of these device's pervasiveness in (so far) southern styles.

I have to say about Bak Mei. I feel about it the same way that I do about Julianne Moore. I really don't know much about either, never (to my knowledge) been in close proximity to either, but in both cases somehow I know that I am in love with them. Maybe someday I'll get a chance in one case or another to have a date.

[Phil Redmond]

some karateka make use of a dummy as well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kDoIkAVLAY
Okinawa is part of the Ryukyu Islands. The word Ryu in Uechi Ryu means it's from Okinawa and is not "Karate". It's Okinawan and has it's origins in Fukien White Crane Kung Fu. I was stationed on "The Rock" in 66' -67' studied Shorinryu with Eizo Shimabuku. We weren't allowed to use the word Karate for Shorin (Shaolin) Ryu back then. Wado Ryu even has Chi Sao from it's Chinese origins. If you compare Okinawan Goju to Japanese Goju you'll see lower stances and a more kung fu look than Japanese Goju.

[ShortBridge]

some karateka make use of a dummy as well


That's an interesting idea for mounting a jong. It seems to be a good, but not ridid base and I suppose that makes it possible to move it around the room.

I'm becoming happy that I started this thread. I'm learning a lot from it. Thanks to all for contributing.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/public/style_avatars/Animated_Avatars/umav_037.gif

[uki]

wooden dummies evolved from using trees. :p

[caesjong]

checkout my jong...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df8JvDG2Ods

[GeneChing]

Shaolin Eagle Claw Wooden Dummy
By Dong Wang and Shou Chen with Zhao Xiaohu

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/admin/site_images/KungfuMagazine/upload/3686_KFM2019-Fall-Cover.jpg
FALL 2019 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1501)