Body Shots

[GlennR]

Hi all

Thought i start a thread on Body Shots

Phil mentioned a few options he employs in regard to them on another thread but i thought id ask everyone else thoughts

I find sparring (both MT & Boxing) that it can be hard to get of the WC punch as a body shot on occasion.
Personally, i feel a bit open at times in comparison to when i use boxing techniques, in regards to body shots, and i feel this is due to the static head height of WC.

Thoughts?

GlennR

[jesper]

Hi all

Thought i start a thread on Body Shots

Phil mentioned a few options he employs in regard to them on another thread but i thought id ask everyone else thoughts

I find sparring (both MT & Boxing) that it can be hard to get of the WC punch as a body shot on occasion.
Personally, i feel a bit open at times in comparison to when i use boxing techniques, in regards to body shots, and i feel this is due to the static head height of WC.

Thoughts?

GlennR

Dont have static head hights then. its not a natural law

[GlennR]

Dont have static head hights then. its not a natural law

Well i agree with that..... but it challenges the satus quo of most WC practiotioners ive seen

[Vajramusti]

Wing chun has lots of body shots- with power- if properly trained.

Think of the work on the dummy at levels below the two top dummy hands.

joy chaudhuri

[GlennR]

Wing chun has lots of body shots- with power- if properly trained.

Think of the work on the dummy at levels below the two top dummy hands.

joy chaudhuri

Sure, i get that Joy..... been doing WC a little while

But my comment is that when i see WC people sparring non-WC people they basically head hunt which, as the boxer-WC video showed, becomes extremely predictable.

So my ongoing question would be.... how do we make ourselves less predictable

GlennR

[jeetsao]

I think that part of the problem is when we "spar" a boxer you are trying to modify wing chun to fulfill a purpose that it was not designed for.

[YungChun]

I think that part of the problem is when we "spar" a boxer you are trying to modify wing chun to fulfill a purpose that it was not designed for.

What "modifications" are you referring to and what "purpose" was VT "not designed for"?

[GlennR]

What modifications are you referring to and what purpose was VT not designed for?

Actually i just re read his comment and am not too sure what he's getting at?

[jeetsao]

If you play by the boxer's rules, many of the weapons of wing chun are left out. Elbows, kicks, open hand strikes, etc. . If gloves are worn, it creates other issues. In addition, often the wing chun guys takes on a boxing mentality of "going rounds rather than finishing on the first engagement. I know I am generalizing but it is what I have observed.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=GlennR;1076099]Sure, i get that Joy..... been doing WC a little while

But my comment is that when i see WC people sparring non-WC people they basically head hunt which, as the boxer-WC video showed, becomes extremely predictable.

So my ongoing question would be.... how do we make ourselves less predictable

------------------------------------------------------------
IMO that is a wing chun mind set question...being ready to hit the closest point . Good chi sao and gor sao -not just head hunting chi sao-trains one for that.

Re another post (the next one?) on this thread- with good training with wing chun motions- one can adapt in using gloves if the occasion calls for it...using the wing chun engine and applications.It takes training and practice.

joy chaudhuri

[Niersun]

If you play by the boxer's rules, many of the weapons of wing chun are left out. Elbows, kicks, open hand strikes, etc. . If gloves are worn, it creates other issues. In addition, often the wing chun guys takes on a boxing mentality of "going rounds rather than finishing on the first engagement. I know I am generalizing but it is what I have observed.

Excellent post.

Essentially, we are creating the problem.

[n.mitch]

I think that in a real life self defence application head shots are fine because instead of punching just use a bill jee strike to the eyes , its easiy to hit. In sparing practise body shots because they canbe a little harder to pull off even with 4 ounce gloves, using a wing chun punch

[Nite Templar]

I think that one should be hitting the targets that are open, regardless of whether it's the head or the body. And the point the OP made about wing chun head positioning and stance being predictable and not conducive to throwing body shots also seems right. If a hook or an uppercut shot is available to the body, why not throw it, even if it doesn't exactly look like typical wing chun? Maybe the basic wing chun head and body positioning is a bit rigid and too straight up?

[T.D.O]

Excellent post.

Essentially, we are creating the problem.



Agreed!




ignore this < it wants more than 10 letters>

[KPM]

Hey Glenn!

I find sparring (both MT & Boxing) that it can be hard to get of the WC punch as a body shot on occasion.

---Why is that? Are you using the "uppercut" from the Chum Kiu form? Its great for body shots. Are you using the straight low punch derived from the "teut sau" motions of the Siu Lim Tao form? Also good for body shots. Are you really close when you throw them?

Personally, i feel a bit open at times in comparison to when i use boxing techniques, in regards to body shots, and i feel this is due to the static head height of WC.

---Why would the head height have anything to do with being open to body shots? If you are bending over with your chin forward are you any less open to body shots? You just have to keep your arms/elbows in a little tighter for coverage if you think body shots are coming. Then as soon as one hits on your arm as it covers, you spring off sharply with a straight punch to his face.

[GlennR]

If you play by the boxer's rules, many of the weapons of wing chun are left out. Elbows, kicks, open hand strikes, etc. . If gloves are worn, it creates other issues. In addition, often the wing chun guys takes on a boxing mentality of "going rounds rather than finishing on the first engagement. I know I am generalizing but it is what I have observed.

Some fair pints thee JS, but when im sparring MT i using all of the waepons youyve mentioned.
I dont go with you "round" idea though. Sure WC is supposed to close down the other guy quick but sparring is learning and trying things when other things dont work. Along with building stamina, correctt technique (through application) and a tougher mindset.

You dont and cant get that through quick 3 secoond scenarios

GlennR

[GlennR]

I think that in a real life self defence application head shots are fine because instead of punching just use a bill jee strike to the eyes , its easiy to hit. In sparing practise body shots because they canbe a little harder to pull off even with 4 ounce gloves, using a wing chun punch

And youdagree its harder to hit Non-WC with body shots Nathan?

[GlennR]

I think that one should be hitting the targets that are open, regardless of whether it's the head or the body. And the point the OP made about wing chun head positioning and stance being predictable and not conducive to throwing body shots also seems right. If a hook or an uppercut shot is available to the body, why not throw it, even if it doesn't exactly look like typical wing chun? Maybe the basic wing chun head and body positioning is a bit rigid and too straight up?

Yep, i agree totally in regards to hitting through openings.

But why do so many WC clips fail to show this?

Dave just put up some sparring clips on ather thread and i hardly saw a body shot thrown. Yet im sure all those guys have chi-saoed to death striking the body constant;y at that range.

And a lot of people that spar WC agreewith your comment about head height and positioning

GlennR

[GlennR]

Hey Glenn!

I find sparring (both MT & Boxing) that it can be hard to get of the WC punch as a body shot on occasion.

---Why is that? Are you using the "uppercut" from the Chum Kiu form? Its great for body shots. Are you using the straight low punch derived from the "teut sau" motions of the Siu Lim Tao form? Also good for body shots. Are you really close when you throw them?

Personally, i feel a bit open at times in comparison to when i use boxing techniques, in regards to body shots, and i feel this is due to the static head height of WC.

---Why would the head height have anything to do with being open to body shots? If you are bending over with your chin forward are you any less open to body shots? You just have to keep your arms/elbows in a little tighter for coverage if you think body shots are coming. Then as soon as one hits on your arm as it covers, you spring off sharply with a straight punch to his face.

Hi Jim
Regarding the CK uppercut, i use it exclusively as a head shot (i actually dont think it hits hard enough for a bodyshot) and certainly use the straight punch in close as you describe. And yep, im really close.

And you are way less open to body shots in a boxers crouch and have a better delivery system to return a very strong body rip from this position (IMHHHHHO ;)).
And i do exactly as you describe re elbows in and reply straight shot

GlennR

[n.mitch]

Yer its ok from the side, but in the center your chin can be exposed with wc body punches . When u try to cramp your opponent when sparring, and your opponent moves back if u don't keep up and then try to wc body punch sometimes u leave ur chin open. I find to use the chum kiu uppercut for a body shot when sparring sometimes u have to change the delivery from the form application

[jeetsao]

Some fair pints thee JS, but when im sparring MT i using all of the waepons youyve mentioned.
I dont go with you "round" idea though. Sure WC is supposed to close down the other guy quick but sparring is learning and trying things when other things dont work. Along with building stamina, correctt technique (through application) and a tougher mindset.

You dont and cant get that through quick 3 secoond scenarios

GlennR

I like to line a group of partners up and go "3 second scenarios" one after another. You get the stamina and tough mindset without the "sport" aspects.

[bennyvt]

I normally go for body shots from the side. Being short sometimes its all you can hit till you can bring them down far enough to hit the head. Also it can bring the guys hands down enough to get a shot or too if close enough.
I use the chum kiu punch normally when really close. Either when my other hand does the neck grab/strike, on the ground when really really close as you get a bit more power in that close and its hard to keep the vertical fist when hitting their sides when in eith mount or gaurd, or I find its good if the person has pulled me down (usually clich, plum etc.).
I dont go for the body if I end up in the centre as I think this leaves you open like others have mentioned.
DO NOT GO FOR THE EYES. Try it and you will find that you are more likely to hit either their forehead, cheeks or their nose. We did conditioning drills once that came from a book about how they condition soilders to kill people, its called "on killing, the psycological cost of killing in warfare". My teacher Bill had it on his recomended reading list. I advise everyone to read it. But the drill was using oranges on peoples eyes and doing eye gouges. Most people wouldn't even do it, ones that did felt it was weird and hardly anyone actually hit where the eyes are.
i have had three people stick their fingers in my eyes, ( one nearly to the first knuckle) and they were more feaked out then me. One was nearly sick. Eyes are hard to conciously attack.

[n.mitch]

I think attacking the eyes is like attacking any other target , you need target practice , it dosent have to be a full strike, it can be a flick straight from the start of the bil form causing a momentary distraction, so you can attack more oppenings or run, I think eyes,throat and groin are all good self defence areas to attack. There are videos of karate guys geting kicked in the groin reapetedly focus their chi and supposedly not feeling pain, and the shoalin monks leaning on speers at their throats, tricks or not? U dont see any demos of guys getting reapetdly hit in the eyes. I find getting flicked in the eye proberly causes my eyes to water and harder trouble seeing than getting poked in the, eye when sparing.

[mjw]

I find the shoveling punch from my version of the 2nd form (some people have the upppercut here) works well for body shots....

[KPM]

I find the shoveling punch from my version of the 2nd form (some people have the upppercut here) works well for body shots....

I find that the difference between a shoveling punch and an uppercut with that Chum Kiu technique is simply how far you follow through. So in the form, you are training both!

[bennyvt]

My teacher calls it the upsetting punch. He thinks uppercut give the wrong idea. Its more forward and not just striaght up like an uppercut. David peterson gave me some good ideas about the angle of the wrist to what level you are punching at.
I found doing basic ground punching on the bag (got it off a UFC video) that its really hard to hit with the normal punch to the side when you are that close on the ground. Just grab a bag, lay it on top of you and hit it. The twist from the chum kiu punch seems to give it more power and bites into the bag more. Its hard to hit at the right angle to be able to hit with just the knuckles using the normal punch. You tend to have to start with your elbow out way out then strike, which isnt preferable. Or use the punch out of biu jee but my wrsit isn't strong enough to deliver heaps of force without my wrist giving way.

[backyard1]

I actually read that book 'on killing' not that long ago. The gist of it seemed to be that killing is not a natural thing and that many soldiers aim to miss (except for the Vietnam war where most GIs aimed to hit). It was written by a desk jockey who'd never been in combat in his life. Personally I woudlnt recommend it.

[jesper]

I actually read that book 'on killing' not that long ago. The gist of it seemed to be that killing is not a natural thing and that many soldiers aim to miss (except for the Vietnam war where most GIs aimed to hit). It was written by a desk jockey who'd never been in combat in his life. Personally I woudlnt recommend it.

Havent read the book but he is correct here. killing is not something easily done

[Grumblegeezer]

Some fair pints thee JS, but when im sparring MT i using all of the waepons youyve mentioned.... GlennR

Glenn, I haven't had much experience with Muay Thai guys, so maybe you can help me on this. You say you use all the basic WC "weapons" Jeetsao mentiond (elbows, kicks, open-hands, etc.). Still, when I watch Muay Thai guys going at it, because of the rules, they don't protect their lower-level centerline. In WC, as with our hands, our leg attacks favor the center, going between the legs and often attacking the groin. If you take away some of our best hand targets, the neck and throat, and also take away our best centerline leg targets, then of course you will have to fight more like they do. That even affects how many body shots you can apply. Body shots straight to the gut of a highly conditioned athlete won't be immediately effective. I prefer to turn my opponent and shoot low palms or punches to the ribs (as in the dummy form). But again this is harder to pull off under fighting rules that protect key centerline targets and encourage the use of wider, hooking attacks. It can be harder to turn or get around an opponent who fights like that and get a lateral angle to deliver the rib shot.

[GlennR]

Glenn, I haven't had much experience with Muay Thai guys, so maybe you can help me on this. You say you use all the basic WC "weapons" Jeetsao mentiond (elbows, kicks, open-hands, etc.). Still, when I watch Muay Thai guys going at it, because of the rules, they don't protect their lower-level centerline. In WC, as with our hands, our leg attacks favor the center, going between the legs and often attacking the groin. If you take away some of our best hand targets, the neck and throat, and also take away our best centerline leg targets, then of course you will have to fight more like they do. That even affects how many body shots you can apply. Body shots straight to the gut of a highly conditioned athlete won't be immediately effective. I prefer to turn my opponent and shoot low palms or punches to the ribs (as in the dummy form). But again this is harder to pull off under fighting rules that protect key centerline targets and encourage the use of wider, hooking attacks. It can be harder to turn or get around an opponent who fights like that and get a lateral angle to deliver the rib shot.

I guess from a WC point of view they appear open, but they arent.
The thing about MT is that it doesnt favour straight or round attacks.... it covers both.
Just because they dont have everything on the centre doesnt mean they cant cover the centre, they just do it differently to us
Heres a clip showing the Teep which shows how they cover the lower centre and train against straight attacks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMMBRBNtZLw

GlennR

[LSWCTN1]

guys;

ever thought about using the punch with the turning body (as seen in jin choi)? It works really well and is similar, but not the exact same, to a boxers shovel hook

[couch]

Time and time again we all *say* that the forms are just collections strewn together. Yet some struggle to pull something out and use it individually.

There is turning in Chum Kiu for many reasons, such as to re-face the centre, power generation, etc. - not just to link with the shovel hook.

Problem isn't the forms, it's the drills. Best way to practice the body shots/shovel hooks is on the mitts, perhaps Chi Sau and then a partner, of course in 'real time.' Shovels/uppercuts/body are difficult to pull off with the targeting/distancing in the beginning so mitts and isolated sparring scenarios are a good idea.