基本功/Ji Ben Gong

[wenshu]

新年好!

Recently I have been prescribed certain single movement practices/ji ben gong by my shifu with the admonition that real gong fu is not obtained through taolu practice but ji ben gong.

I don't necessarily mean the basics like li he tui or ma bu dan bian, not to say that those are not excellent exercises that require occasional maintenance. Rather, repetitive practice of certain movements found within some taolu.

For instance I was prescribed the movement 卧枕 wo zhen, found in Pao quan and a few others I think. I practice this alternating both sides for predetermined intervals.

I also practice gong bu tui zhang and pu bu qie zhang in this fashion. In the case of gong bu tui zhang I find this deceptively simple pattern to contain inexhaustible subtleties. Pu bu qie zhang only because I feel I am somewhat lacking in this movement; I have a tendency to hunch over to reach my lead foot rather than keeping the spine erect and balancing over the lead leg.

This is not to say I no longer practice taolu. In fact this method has only served to enhance my forms. In some ways the above described method can be even more exhausting than taolu practice as in taolu one is given opportunities to catch one's breath in certain resting poses or dramatic pauses. There are no such opportunities when practicing ji ben gong.

Anyone have any particular ji ben gong that they focus on?

[bawang]

doing postures isnt jibengong. that should be part of your warmup not ur main training.
my form training in morning takes less than 5 minutes.

ur jibengong obviously should be qigong , iron fist, iron head, iron body.

some good jibengong excercises are 二郎担山 (barbell squat) ,霸王举鼎 (military press).

[wenshu]

Perhaps I was unclear. I wasn't talking about static postures. Ji ben gong is most likely a misnomer on my part as well. However that is how these movements were introduced to me.

Iron head? I would much rather slip and counter thank you very much. But that probably belongs on another forum.

[YouKnowWho]

People may have different definition of Gong. To me Gong is the "ability" to make certain technique work. For example, the knock down power is Gong, and how to throw a punch is technique. By using this definition, Gong is not basic (Ji Ben) but advance.

Here is an example that I'll consider as Gong training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUzE5MQhdcc

[bawang]

what exactly are you asking?

[wenshu]

Thats a good example. ma bu dan bian, gong bu xiu xing, pu bu qie zhang, xu bu liang zhang, xie bu chang quan. Those are a little too basic.

I like wo zhen because it is significantly more taxing and is very good for improving zhuan yao and eye movement.

You answered my question, you like squats and presses.

I consider strength training separately, but thats because I cross train.

[RenDaHai]

Hey Wenshu

Good question.

Shaolin's Core of technique is from Hong Quan and contains about 50 major techniques and many minor.

Wo Zhen is an excellent excercise that encompasses a myriad of techniques from all sides of the stance.

Some of shaolins and indeed all northern wushus essential techniques are;

Dan Bian, Xie Xing, Qi Xing, Shu Shen, Kua Hu, Hou zi Kan Yue Liang, QIng Long ti tou, Pu du jin, Pu bu qie zhang, Ban SHou, Tui zhang, Hei Hu TOu XIn, Wo Zhen, gou quan, Hai DI Pao, Wo di pao, guo bian pao, Zhi Pao, Hu bao tou, Mao xi lian, Huan Ying Suo hou, Yun shou, Xuan feng shou, Chong tian pao, Liao tui, Wai Bai, Li He, Gai quan, Zuo shan, Wu hua, Bai he, san za chui, lian huan zhou, Pan Zhou, shuang qiang shou, Ta ba, Hu pu ba, Yao Shan ba, xu bu shi zi shou ......off the top of my head, there are many others. (the major warmup kicks should be in there as each represents a full sweep movement using the hands as well).

All can be pracitced as 'Ba' individual drills. They can also all be practiced in compliant drills against an opponant and can be sparred with.

Of these Shu Shen, Dan Bian, Xie XIng, Qi xing and ban shou form the major part of shaolin Hong Quans strategy. And pu di jin becasue I like it. These are the ones I focus on relentlessly.

THey are not just individual postures each technique represents a concept and a structure and a method of using power. Some techniques can be done in many stances, others are more particular. Qi xing for example is an entire style unto itself (and NO i dont mean qixing quan, thats totally different, i mean the technique and hand position 'seven stars').

[bawang]

if u mean basic techniques rendahai is 100% correct follow his advice. qixing and danbian are mother fists of northern kung fu. they have so many concepts not just movements

[ShaolinDan]

In my school ji ben gong means 'line exercises,' basic drills we do in a line down the room...I don't know for sure, but I think that in the modern wushu context this is what ji ben gong refers to.

[YouKnowWho]

In my school ji ben gong means 'line exercises,' basic drills we do in a line down the room...I don't know for sure, but I think that in the modern wushu context this is what ji ben gong refers to.

Will you call this Ji Ben Gong training by your definition?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hI6OJpVzi8

[wenshu]

Hey Wenshu

Good question.

Shaolin's Core of technique is from Hong Quan and contains about 50 major techniques and many minor.

Wo Zhen is an excellent excercise that encompasses a myriad of techniques from all sides of the stance.

Some of shaolins and indeed all northern wushus essential techniques are;

Dan Bian, Xie Xing, Qi Xing, Shu Shen, Kua Hu, Hou zi Kan Yue Liang, QIng Long ti tou, Pu du jin, Pu bu qie zhang, Ban SHou, Tui zhang, Hei Hu TOu XIn, Wo Zhen, gou quan, Hai DI Pao, Wo di pao, guo bian pao, Zhi Pao, Hu bao tou, Mao xi lian, Huan Ying Suo hou, Yun shou, Xuan feng shou, Chong tian pao, Liao tui, Wai Bai, Li He, Gai quan, Zuo shan, Wu hua, Bai he, san za chui, lian huan zhou, Pan Zhou, shuang qiang shou, Ta ba, Hu pu ba, Yao Shan ba, xu bu shi zi shou ......off the top of my head, there are many others. (the major warmup kicks should be in there as each represents a full sweep movement using the hands as well).

All can be pracitced as 'Ba' individual drills. They can also all be practiced in compliant drills against an opponant and can be sparred with.

Of these Shu Shen, Dan Bian, Xie XIng, Qi xing and ban shou form the major part of shaolin Hong Quans strategy. And pu di jin becasue I like it. These are the ones I focus on relentlessly.

THey are not just individual postures each technique represents a concept and a structure and a method of using power. Some techniques can be done in many stances, others are more particular. Qi xing for example is an entire style unto itself (and NO i dont mean qixing quan, thats totally different, i mean the technique and hand position 'seven stars').

This is exactly what I was talking about.

I guess I should have stated my question more clearly. I already know what individual drills are. I was asking if anyone has any particular ones they like to focus on.

I resorted to calling it ji ben gong because they are practiced in a similar fashion. But many of them are not really basic.

RenDaHai, which move is pu di jin? Could you describe it? I am probably familiar with it, I just don't know the name.

The qi xing hand position has always been one of my favorite, have not tried drilling it individually though.

Shuang yunding and pan shou are two others I really like.

The eponymous postures themselves are not that important. How you get there contains the techniques.

[ShaolinDan]

Will you call this Ji Ben Gong training by your definition?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hI6OJpVzi8

It's not my definition, it's just my impression, but yeah, in the context of my school (which is admittedly not very concerned with knowing the proper Chinese) that would be ji ben gong.

[ShaolinDan]

Just to clarify, we're not a modern wushu school, we just borrow a lot of their training methods.

[YouKnowWho]

It's not my definition, it's just my impression, but yeah, in the context of my school (which is admittedly not very concerned with knowing the proper Chinese) that would be ji ben gong.
The reason I asked because those are usually considered as "solo drills". It's 2 men drills without partner. It should be considered as "technique" training and not "Gong" training IMO.

When you line up your students and ask them to do cross punch, side kick, elbow strike, hip throw, ... Those are combat technique training and have nothing to do with Gong training. The Gong training should be something that can enhance your technique training and not the technique training itself. For example, what training than can help you to make your side kick to be more powerful? That special training is "Gong" training.

[ShaolinDan]

That makes sense to me, YKW.

I think in my school the term comes from my teacher's experience with modern wushu teachers...they probably don't train the other gongs, so it might make more sense for them.

We do plenty of what you call gong training, but we don't call it ji ben gong, we just call it training. :)

[ShaolinDan]

here, i did a quick search, this video and the following sections are like what we do in my school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vIwwu5EbCM&feature=related

[YouKnowWho]

here, i did a quick search, this video and the following sections are like what we do in my school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vIwwu5EbCM&feature=related

Most of the Wushu Ji Ben Gong are training for "flexibility" only. The "flexibility" is important for performance. The TCMA Gong training is for combat ability.

The following Qong traing can "enhance" your foot sweep "technique".

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8890/singleheadsweep.jpg

[ShaolinDan]

Yeah, see, in my school we have a whole array of exercises just for strengthening the eagle claw, but we don't call it Ying jow pai gong (or whatever would be correct), we call it eagle claw or grip or hand strength training. :)

[ShaolinDan]

Well as long as I'm writing all this, I'll try to answer Wenshu's question.

If you mean 'ji ben gong' in the context I originally thought then I don't have any particular one's I like especially, the one's I practice on my own are sections from whatever form I'm learning at the time.

In the more traditional(?) interpretation, I focus in particular on my eagle claw and on shin conditioning(eagle claw because I want to, shins because I need to).

[RenDaHai]

This is exactly what I was talking about.

I guess I should have stated my question more clearly. I already know what individual drills are. I was asking if anyone has any particular ones they like to focus on.

I resorted to calling it ji ben gong because they are practiced in a similar fashion. But many of them are not really basic.

RenDaHai, which move is pu di jin? Could you describe it? I am probably familiar with it, I just don't know the name.

The qi xing hand position has always been one of my favorite, have not tried drilling it individually though.

Shuang yunding and pan shou are two others I really like.

The eponymous postures themselves are not that important. How you get there contains the techniques.

I like to focus on Shu shen, Dan Bian, Xie Xing and Qixing.

Pu di jin is a move that has vanished from shaolin in all but name. Amongst the older teachers (70s and above) there is not just one stance called Pu bu but a whole range. Pu di jin is a particular type of pubu. It is one use to get closer to your opponant in a fast dash, but in such a way that you don't see coming. It is done in half splits on the floor with the toes back. In reality the move is not so low and involves pulling the toes back on the front foot and using ti to take a large sliding step into your oppnant. The toes need to be back to facilitate the slide, it can't be done like pu bu. This is also ideal because as soon as it meets resistance like the opponants foot it clamps down on top of it... and for many other reasons.

There is a video of DaHong quan I'm sure you have seen. Its an old video and the guy does a really low pu bu with his toes pulled back. This is the technique I'm talking about. Although it looks like pu bu the mechanics of the applicaion are very different. In form it is typical to drop into one sided splits for training purposes. Amazingly this is very common in the older less corrupted village styles around shaolin and is NOT an affect of modern wushu. THis is pu di jin. If you do it in realistic proportions its a really good step as from your opponants perspective it looks like you are getting further away but actually you are getting closer (you'll have to practice it to see). You don't need to go very low at tall, about half a pu bu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQbZsgJ-pb4 DaHOngQUan with PuDiJin


YOu are right in saying that the transition is important, however many of the postures form important bone structures, knowing how this structure is supported correctly will magnify the power of technique more than the hands. Qi xing for example is the concept that one hand supports the other. It is first praciced by actually holding the wrist of the striking hand. This structure is so strong even a small light movement is very powerful. As with all techniques it has its place. Although please bear in mind qixing is not just the striking posture we use, but many guarding postures where one heand supports or protects or hides behind the other.

[wenshu]

As a matter of fact, with the exception of the pu di jin, that is the exact version of Da Hong Quan we practice.

Pardon my tendency towards hyperbole when making certain observations; the importance of the postures is, of course, not to be overlooked.

It has always appeared to me that the "transition" into qixing: the right fist placed palm up on the inside of the left elbow then "turned insideout" (for want of a better term) while turning the waist, contains devestating chin na. I have therefore always focused more so on the grappling implications than the more evident striking.

Do you consider the hand positon with the blade of the right palm placed on wrist behind the left palm under your stated definition of qixing. I will post a picture later, but I'm sure you probably know what I am talking about. It is quite common in Hong Quan and Chang Hu Xin Yi Men. From this position there are numerous chin na techniques as well as striking implications.

[RenDaHai]

A keen observation Wenshu!

The technique you refer to is called 'Shi Zi SHou' or 'Hands shaped like the character ten' or crossed palms. However YES! it is indeed Qixing. THe hand moves anywhere from the elbow to the wrist it is Qixing. THe point is it is supporting the other hand. It can do so by adding structure to a strike or block, or being there to take over in case the ohter hand is parryed, grabbed etc. If I push your hand down for example, my strength and control is literally doubled by using the other hand to assist one of my joints.

So yes, the Shizishou in Changhuxinyimen is indeed an extension of the principle qixing. When the hands link together they form a structure of 7 joints working in harmony (the 7th joint is the spinal vertibrae about which the shoulder blades open and close). from above the structure resembles the big dipper (if you support at the elbow).

The Qinna applications are many. But a lot of people focus on them too much. Because they are hard and seldom used in reality, where as a strike is often used. We have an old saying that 'a strike is worth a hundred grabs'. So i tend to focus on its striking and guarding nature.


Interestingly there are many transitions into Qixing depending which Menpai you follow. None is really more correct than another. As long as you understand the principle you can mix it up and use whichever specific transition you fancy. Turning 'inside out' as you say is the more common as it often strikes upwards as opposed to straight out.

On DaHongQuan, Yes that is a really good version. Mine is largely identical and contains the same pu di jin and raising hand afterwards. A few stances vary, but only in terms of larger frame or smaller frame.

[RenDaHai]

The best way to think about it is wielding a two handed sword, where one of your arms is the sword. Often the sword is wielded with one hand, two are only used to add strength when necessary. So the hands can work together as one super strong arm. This method as opposed to using two swords, keeping the hands always doing different things and not supporting one another.

[ShaolinDan]

Thanks, I'm glad you posted all that about pu di jin, RenDaHai. I have always loved that movement in that video (found it within months of when I started training), but never knew anything about it except what I could see.

[wenshu]

十字手 it is. I don't spend much time learning the names or concepts behind the postures, fascinating though they may be. The limited amount of time I have to dedicate to 练功 is predominated with practice not talking. Probably why my spoken Chinese is stuck on a rudimentary plateau.

The grappling implications in a lot of Hong Quan etc are, outside of a compliant partner situation, quite impossible to pull off for a hobbyist such as myself. They are bad ass in theory.

I remember when I first started learning 长护心意门 and my shifu pointed out the nodes of the 七星:


http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/mindblownp1.gif


Interestingly there are many transitions into Qixing depending which Menpai you follow. None is really more correct than another. As long as you understand the principle you can mix it up and use whichever specific transition you fancy. Turning 'inside out' as you say is the more common as it often strikes upwards as opposed to straight out.

I'm not sure I adequately explained the movement I was trying to describe; similar position to the 十字手 then internally rotating each arm so the hands cross underneath...? Doesn't really strike upwards.



The best way to think about it is wielding a two handed sword, where one of your arms is the sword. Often the sword is wielded with one hand, two are only used to add strength when necessary. So the hands can work together as one super strong arm. This method as opposed to using two swords, keeping the hands always doing different things and not supporting one another.

In this case, it is sufficiently self evident through persistent practice as to not require any explication.

[RenDaHai]

I remember when I first started learning 长护心意门 and my shifu pointed out the nodes of the 七星:

You might like this; I was privaliged to learn Mogou Pai Xiaohong Quan, This is the ancient (500 Yrs earlier) version of Changhuxinyimen. It contains many more Qixing stances. I was also able to see many of the variations of Changhu around Dengfeng. ANyway you know the repeated section in Changhuxinyimen? The bit we do 3 times? Well from the Kua Hu (protect the hips, riding the tiger double meaning) you turn back into xiexing, Afterwards you rotate the arms and turn into Ma Bu with a low strike? you know, in the old versions this low strike is done as Qixing in Dingbu. All 3 times. very nice.

The symmetry in these forms is poetic in nature and points to the strategy of the style. The individual moves are the moves, the sequence are combinations and the symmetry is the strategy.



I'm not sure I adequately explained the movement I was trying to describe; similar position to the 十字手 then internally rotating each arm so the hands cross underneath...? Doesn't really strike upwards.
.

Ok, I think I get you now. There are a lot of variations. The most common is done with the arm lifting upwards into its position. Just like in the technique explained above before you turn into ma bu, the hands do upwards rotating circles. But there is no standard, no best version.

[wenshu]

You might like this; I was privaliged to learn Mogou Pai Xiaohong Quan, This is the ancient (500 Yrs earlier) version of Changhuxinyimen. It contains many more Qixing stances. I was also able to see many of the variations of Changhu around Dengfeng. ANyway you know the repeated section in Changhuxinyimen? The bit we do 3 times? Well from the Kua Hu (protect the hips, riding the tiger double meaning) you turn back into xiexing, Afterwards you rotate the arms and turn into Ma Bu with a low strike? you know, in the old versions this low strike is done as Qixing in Dingbu. All 3 times. very nice.
.

Very cool. In the older versions is it da qixing like in Hong Quan without the qixing bu?

I think know the section you mean, but we only do it once. After the three blocks you strike in da qixing instead of ma bu chang quan? Interesting. That section is a good one to drill as well. Very practical and relatively easy to do with a partner of any skill level.

[RenDaHai]

Very cool. In the older versions is it da qixing like in Hong Quan without the qixing bu?

I think know the section you mean, but we only do it once. After the three blocks you strike in da qixing instead of ma bu chang quan? Interesting. That section is a good one to drill as well. Very practical and relatively easy to do with a partner of any skill level.

Yes. Changhuxinyimen is a 96 move form, you guys may just use the 1st of 3 sections. ITs part of Mogou HOng Quan, as is Qixing quan and guandong quan and Yunyang quan. Interestingly in the older versions the 'Qixing bu' doesn't feature. We just use Xu bu or Ding Bu or a variation in between. For some reason when these forms were 'Shaolinised' they added some basics from XinYi liuhe quan (hence the xinyimen in changhuxinyimen). I still don't know why the 'qixing bu' exists in shaolin, it only features in those systems with Mogou lineage yet doesn't feature in the mogou forms themselves. Very wierd.

But yes you got the location right, it is Qixing hands in Dingbu (Nail stance, tiptoe stance). YOu then fall back to shu shen (shrink body) as opposed to the qixing bu stance.

[wenshu]

Yes. Changhuxinyimen is a 96 move form, you guys may just use the 1st of 3 sections. ITs part of Mogou HOng Quan, as is Qixing quan and guandong quan and Yunyang quan. Interestingly in the older versions the 'Qixing bu' doesn't feature. We just use Xu bu or Ding Bu or a variation in between. For some reason when these forms were 'Shaolinised' they added some basics from XinYi liuhe quan (hence the xinyimen in changhuxinyimen). I still don't know why the 'qixing bu' exists in shaolin, it only features in those systems with Mogou lineage yet doesn't feature in the mogou forms themselves. Very wierd.

But yes you got the location right, it is Qixing hands in Dingbu (Nail stance, tiptoe stance). YOu then fall back to shu shen (shrink body) as opposed to the qixing bu stance.

Actually I learned er lu about two years ago. Unfortunately I never practiced it and have forgotten most. Some shuai applications executed from xu bu stand out in my memory for some reason. Also the kick sequence at the beginning. We also use the palm strikes from the ending of san lu instead of the whole retreat sequence. (I think the move is named after a chapter from the art of war. . .?)

I can't speak to the history but I really like the qixing bu. Its a good close quarters 'ankle pick'.

[GeneChing]

It's all about the jibengong. My Shaolin master Shi Decheng (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44742) placed a lot of emphasis upon line drill jibengong. It's pretty common vernacular to refer to Shaolin basic line drills as jibengong at Shaolin. It's similar to the modern wushu point of view, although I don't know which usage has precedence. Decheng had 18 lines, which was really a symbolic number as he also had variations and extra lines. All the wuseng that I have trained under do some jibengong series. There's a lot of variations.

Currently, under Yan Fei at O-Mei (http://www.usaomei.com/), we do basic kicks and stances for warm up drills, and then do sequence extractions from our forms, dahong, xiaohong, qixing, etc.

[ShaolinDan]

Ah, thanks Gene. That would explain why we use it as we do in my school. Nice to know.

[Northwind]

We do all sorts of things from form extractions, to micro-movements, etc. Some small examples would be:

Right Bow stance - sink weight back - toe in - shift to horse - shift weight back - toe out - shift to bow

Right bow stance - sink weight back as right forearm does circular "block" (more like bridging, but we just call it make contact - whether offensively or defensively) with palm facing obliquely up & towards face, with left palm "lil bro" fingertips at right elbow - turn right palm over into eagle claw - pull claw to right hip [this drill has variations based on timing of weight shift/contact/pull

Relaxed right bow stance with waist between horse/bow - pivot waist to right as right in-to-out contact/block/etc. and left strike

And many many others