Does Style Matter?

[MightyB]

This is a bit of thread Necro... but- Does style matter, or is it just a way to give a different name to the same thing? Yes, there are nuances to every "style" but that's really all they are... "nuances"- your thumb goes here, use more pinky there, etc.

So, is there something fundamentally different between styles that makes it impossible to crosstrain (only talking about TCMA). Like, why can't we do a southern form just because we want to, and then do a northern Shao Lin just because... ?

[YouKnowWho]

is there something fundamentally different between styles ...
A mantis "hook punch" is to use your fist to hit on the "side" of your opponent's head. A SC "hook punch" is to use your fore-arm to hit the "back" of your opponent's head. Because the end goal are different, the way to apply the same move are different.

[Syn7]

i do believe that some styles have more potential than others...

i also believe that how you train is more important than what you train...

and hey, some styles mix well, others dont mix so well... but with a decent brain you should always be able to find a bridge between the two...

that being said, taking body size, personality etc etc into consideration, you choose what combo(how vs what) is best for you... ofcourse unless you have some great advice(and you have no way of knowing how good it is till later) you'll have to just wade in, experience some stuff and move on from there... whatevers best for you... but how is so important... you MUST train against resisting opponents and you MUST spar atleast somewhat full contact against many people from many diff styles from all around... what i mean is you cant just spar with kung fu bros. cousins and guys from the school down the road... thats all good, but you need more veriety and it benefits everyone involved...

[MightyB]

I'm just thinking about how in most traditional martial arts creation mythology - the stories usually detail how so-and-so travelled to whatever province to learn some-guy's sacred fist set, then he travels to another province to learn billy-jack's kicking set, then to another city where there's a famous long stick master. But nowadays- that's seen as taboo...

[YouKnowWho]

how so-and-so travelled to whatever province to learn some-guy's sacred fist set,

It did happened. My teacher spent a year and half just tried to learn a "double leg hooking" from a tea shop owner. It's not that easy to learn someone's best move if you are not his student. IMO, you travel to learn a single technique and not any form.

[bawang]

some people feel empty in life and they hold on to something really tight and dont let go.

a good example ist star trek conventions arguments there can get really heated and the kind people is very similar to those that do kung fu

[-N-]

A mantis "hook punch" is to use your fist to hit on the "side" of your opponent's head. A SC "hook punch" is to use your fore-arm to hit the "back" of your opponent's head. Because the end goal are different, the way to apply the same move are different.

It might depend on which branch of Mantis.

For us, we have the entire range from fist to temple through forearm to back of head.

Superficially, it may be considered fist. But in application, forearm is preferred. When attacking, we want to close in enough that the forearm can contact and body and leg can strike as well.

[-N-]

I'm just thinking about how in most traditional martial arts creation mythology - the stories usually detail how so-and-so travelled to whatever province to learn some-guy's sacred fist set, then he travels to another province to learn billy-jack's kicking set, then to another city where there's a famous long stick master. But nowadays- that's seen as taboo...

That still does happen, and is even encouraged. But for a lot of students, they are not at a level of skill and understanding where it useful to do so.

In those old stories, those people were already masters or champions.

[ginosifu]

This is a bit of thread Necro... but- Does style matter, or is it just a way to give a different name to the same thing? Yes, there are nuances to every "style" but that's really all they are... "nuances"- your thumb goes here, use more pinky there, etc.

So, is there something fundamentally different between styles that makes it impossible to crosstrain (only talking about TCMA). Like, why can't we do a southern form just because we want to, and then do a northern Shao Lin just because... ?

This is one of those Yes and No kinda answers.

Different styles have different theory and different approaches to any given situation. Hung Gar students may stand their ground and crush you with their powerful Tiger Claws. Monkey students may jump around hoping to distract you then pinch you in boys. Mantis fighters want to get in close to trap your hands to apply their technique. But in the end, a punch is a punch... A kick is a kick, yes?

When you look at why is there different stlyes and why not just one big Chinese martial art style. There are theories like using body power VS whipping power. Body power uses the legs to connect to the earth and drive thru the waist and express it in the hands (or head or foot etc etc). Whipping power use speed and torque to increase power in the hit. There are many other variables such as these thru out Chinese Kung Fu that give each style it's uniqueness.

You can cross train all of these any time you want, but in the end... it will all become your own personal interpretation then. If you train Hung Gar and Monkey you will have a mix.... Hung Monkey so to speak. This is ok if you like the results of your training. Because it's all you. Some people don't like this because you have "spoiled" a style. I don't think it matters much in todays society.

In the end YES you can mix styles, but NO you will not have anything pure anymore.

ginosifu

[B-Rad]

Sure style matters, they're all human creations and often have different training systems and focus (and some really are just more intelligently designed for their purpose than others). I don't see how what style you practice couldn't matter. Everything matters.

[Hardwork108]

This is a bit of thread Necro... but- Does style matter, or is it just a way to give a different name to the same thing?

Style does matter. That is why styles exist, as each will have something special to offer.



Yes, there are nuances to every "style" but that's really all they are... "nuances"- your thumb goes here, use more pinky there, etc.

There is a lot more involved as far as differences are concerned. In the TCMAs one has to study a given style(s) more profoundly in order to go beyond seeing the superficial differences.


So, is there something fundamentally different between styles that makes it impossible to crosstrain (only talking about TCMA). Like, why can't we do a southern form just because we want to, and then do a northern Shao Lin just because... ?

TCMA style can be trained if you do it relevantly. however, IMHO, the most important aspect of crosstraining TCMA is to build high level skill and understanding in one, before you go on to cross train in another.

Of course, if you happen to be living in a temple and training every day, under genuine masters, then perhaps you could be taught more than one system at the same time.:D

[jdhowland]

You can crosstrain in anything. Some styles/theories/training methods are discordant but you can evaluate them and adapt what you want out of the experience.

What matters is that you develop a fighting system out of fighting experience, not what somebody else claims is good. If it's an exercise system you want, create one that works for you.

If it's artistic preservation you want, stay with one system and plumb the depths. That's when "style" matters.

jd

[Hardwork108]

You can crosstrain in anything.
IMHO, that only works in theory. There are many here that have cross trained their incomplete knowledge and understanding of a given style of kung fu with other, many times irrelevant, arts. They claim that it has improved their fighting skills, but wether this is true or not, their comments, as far as their kung fu understanding is concerned comes across as rather clueless.



Some styles/theories/training methods are discordant but you can evaluate them and adapt what you want out of the experience.
IMHO, you can only do that if you have built enough understanding of your core style, that is if you are lucky enough to have had authentic training in it, in this day and age of Mcdojos...


What matters is that you develop a fighting system out of fighting experience, not what somebody else claims is good.

No matter what discipline one endeavors to learn, sooner or later one has to take up what someone else claims to be "good".

Also, we are discussing Kung fu fighting systems. To learn kung fu you will need to learn from authentic masters and sifus. That means that inherently you will initially be exposed to what someone else (who presumably knows more than you) considers as "good". This concept is true in many disciplines.


If it's an exercise system you want, create one that works for you.
IMHO, before creating, one has to learn a given discipline properly from authentic tuition, in order to gain the faculties required.


If it's artistic preservation you want, stay with one system and plumb the depths. That's when "style" matters.

As far as authentid kung fu practice is concerned, that is all that one may need to become a very potent fighter.;)

[jdhowland]

Hardwork108, I do not disagree with any of your comments. I wrote from my own experience and prejudice. If you reread what I wrote and consider it assumed that my opinions were meant for the eyes of other hardworking tcma folks who do spend years with a good teacher they may make more sense. For example, I know a guy who has trained in such disparate arts as southern praying mantis, taijiquan and bajiquan. He's been practicing for over 40 years and he uses it all in one way or another. He continues to learn and refine and let nothing but death keep him apart from his teachers.

That's the kind of cross training I'm talking about.

Those other guys: the pick-and-choosers, the dabblers, the alphabet soup group...well, I don't care about them.

[Hardwork108]

Hardwork108, I do not disagree with any of your comments. I wrote from my own experience and prejudice. If you reread what I wrote and consider it assumed that my opinions were meant for the eyes of other hardworking tcma folks who do spend years with a good teacher they may make more sense. For example, I know a guy who has trained in such disparate arts as southern praying mantis, taijiquan and bajiquan. He's been practicing for over 40 years and he uses it all in one way or another. He continues to learn and refine and let nothing but death keep him apart from his teachers.

That's the kind of cross training I'm talking about.

Those other guys: the pick-and-choosers, the dabblers, the alphabet soup group...well, I don't care about them.

Understood, and thanks for the clarification. :)

[B.Tunks]

A mantis "hook punch" is to use your fist to hit on the "side" of your opponent's head. A SC "hook punch" is to use your fore-arm to hit the "back" of your opponent's head. Because the end goal are different, the way to apply the same move are different.

The large hook punch in Qingdao and Yantai QX is the exactly the same as you have listed as SC hook punch. Forearm to base of skull/top of neck. This is also the same for most families of MH and TJMH in the mainland.

(of course there is the short hook too)

BT

[B.Tunks]

It might depend on which branch of Mantis.

For us, we have the entire range from fist to temple through forearm to back of head.

Superficially, it may be considered fist. But in application, forearm is preferred. When attacking, we want to close in enough that the forearm can contact and body and leg can strike as well.

I agree with this. It depends on what target is presented.

BT

[ShaolinDan]

I think style matters, not as much as teacher and student, but certainly different styles have different things to offer, though I suppose the higher(lower?) level the players the less the differences? Good basics are good basics, but beyond basics things get more interesting/divergent.

But, I think there's absolutely no reason why we can't do southern today and northern tomorrow. (Assuming we've got the basics of one figured out first) I think it's a good learning experience, and also fun, to do different forms with different flavors.

[ShaolinDan]

...or different punches for that matter.

[wiz cool c]

I would say yes and no. My teacher has been showing me some applications from Hung Chuan that are very similar to western boxing,except for the deflecting arm that sticks to the opponents arm. But at the same time the forms are so much more complex then let's say takwondo. I guess when it comes to competing for let's say a sanda match the training is more important and the style doesn't really mater. It's hit pads work round house, side kicks ect.

[TenTigers]

A mantis "hook punch" is to use your fist to hit on the "side" of your opponent's head. A SC "hook punch" is to use your fore-arm to hit the "back" of your opponent's head. Because the end goal are different, the way to apply the same move are different.
a Hung Kuen * hook punch uses the fist, forearm, inner arm, etc., to strike the side, back, hook the neck, lock, etc
"The whole body is the fist."
(but then we're back to concepts/ principles vs technique again..;-)




*I say Hung Kuen, not to say one style is better than another, only because I play Hung Kuen. Gung-Fu is Gung-Fu.

[TenTigers]

there has always been cross-training.
Even highly specialized styles like SPM came from bringing in other techniques in order to form its present form. Lam Sang's SPM definatley has a different 'flavor" to it, due to Lam's outside training-so it is said.
Wong Fei-Hung brought in many outside techniques.
Choy Li Fut? Wing Chun? Bak Mei? Dai Sing Pek Gwa?
The reason the jade is held close to the vest-nowadays, is probably more due to insecurity of teachers, rather than giving up th3 deadly.(in most cases;-)
However, what does hold true is when students who do not have a real understanding of their art, play "Master," and make chop suey.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Styles matter, everything matters.
To what degree depends on the individual.
Some systems are suited for "quick learning" and others for a more "unhurried" learning process.
Some are suited for fighting and others, while still combative, less so.
Some are suited for particular attitudes and personalities, others are suited for people looking for fun and enjoyment.
All styles have something of benefit and ALL styles are lacking in something.

[David Jamieson]

Style matters when you've been training for 5 years and then you go for a bout and discover that you can't use your style's ideas worth crud.

Probably best to test that stuff throughout. :)

[YiQuanOne]

One way to look at styles is that they are all paths that led up a mountain. The top of the mountain would be enlightenment. Now not all paths go all the way to the top and some paths go up faster than others and some paths dead end and erode for different reasons.

If one has reached the top of the mountain he see all routes leading up the mountain, so he can look down at the different paths and see if they continue to the top of the mountain.

Some paths will rise very fast but will dead end and deteriorate over time without high maintenance, I would say these paths are the external arts, you want to be able to use them right away with good results. But the paths do not led to he top and if you want to get higher up the mountain sooner or later you will have to back track and find a path that leeds higher up the mountain.

So most people will take the easy fast track because they want results and something they can use now, but after awhile when they notice the path no longer is going up the mountain and getting more crowded then they will seek another path or stay and try to rule the crowd.

[bawang]

One way to look at styles is that they are all paths that led up a mountain.

some lead down into a chinese open pit toilet. like yiquan.

[Miqi]

The most important question is 'matter for what?'

[SPJ]

What ever you do most

is your style.

:)

[Dragonzbane76]

If you like it do it. Styles to me don't matter. There are only so many ways to do any given technique. Most every style has a "way" of doing it.

If your happy doing what you do then continue on your path. Listening to everyone else is the problem because in the end your the one who you have to make happy.

[Lucas]

The most important question is 'matter for what?'

i think that this can be emphasized.

from a philosophical and personal development stand point, no styles dont matter at all. but then when we are talking about specific applicability i think they do. i didnt used to think like this. but ive actually gradually have come to think that to a degree the style you study can matter. for instance if your style has little to no grappling development, or little to no striking development, depending on the situation you can find yourself in trouble.

now this is on a broad scale imo. its not 'style' per se, but more skill set that can customarily be obtained through studying from a certain selection of 'styles'

ie: cross training.

shaolin martial belief teaches us that you have to adapt and adopt to your environment in able to survive from a martial standpoint. where ever you live, be it time or place, you have to be able to adapt your boxing to your surroundings. in this day and age with cross training such a prevalent practice, its more important than ever to meet more robust needs in terms of skill sets.

[mooyingmantis]

A mantis "hook punch" is to use your fist to hit on the "side" of your opponent's head. A SC "hook punch" is to use your fore-arm to hit the "back" of your opponent's head. Because the end goal are different, the way to apply the same move are different.

Johm,
Actually, my 7* mantis instructor taught us to use the "hook punch" to strike to the back of the opponent's neck to throw the opponent. :o So same,same.

Raul Ortiz also teaches it that way here (at 00:52):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwqNVVL0L6o&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

[YouKnowWho]

Johm,
Actually, my 7* mantis instructor taught us to use the "hook punch" to strike to the back of the opponent's neck to throw the opponent. :o So same,same.

Raul Ortiz also teaches it that way here (at 00:52):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwqNVVL0L6o&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

People call it "knock your opponent half way out before throwing him".

[YouKnowWho]

Style matters when you've been training for 5 years and then you go for a bout and discover that you can't use your style's ideas worth crud.

Probably best to test that stuff throughout. :)

When I was young, I was crazy about "speed" training. Since the Zimen system has the best speed training, I had spend many years in that system. Oneday I sparred with a Karate guy. I moved in, striked my finger tips on his chest, and moved back before he even had chance to raise his arm to block my "lighting speed strike". I was so proud of my speed, but the way that my Karate friend looked at me as if, "What's the fu*k that you are doing?" After that day, I went back to my heavy bag training. No more fancy stuff. :o

As long as my opponent is still standing on his feet, the mission is not accomplished yet.

[David Jamieson]

When I was young, I was crazy about "speed" training. Since the Zimen system has the best speed training, I had spend many years in that system. Oneday I sparred with a Karate guy. I moved in, striked my finger tips on his chest, and moved back before he even had chance to raise his arm to block my "lighting speed strike". I was so proud of my speed, but the way that my Karate friend looked at me as if, "What's the fu*k that you are doing?" After that day, I went back to my heavy bag training. No more fancy stuff. :o

As long as my opponent is still standing on his feet, the mission is not accomplished yet.

lol.

I had a dust up with a guy who was pretty fast.

In fact he must have hit me about 50 times!

I hit him 2 or 3 times.

I won.

I have no time for speed without power. One needs the other.

People will make the old F=MxA but when you don't have a lot of mass behind the acceleration a human can generate? That dimishes force, a lot.

[Darthlawyer]

lol.

I had a dust up with a guy who was pretty fast.

In fact he must have hit me about 50 times!

I hit him 2 or 3 times.

I won.

I have no time for speed without power. One needs the other.

People will make the old F=MxA but when you don't have a lot of mass behind the acceleration a human can generate? That dimishes force, a lot.

I liked the way you phrased that. I think that most people simply remove a lot of the "mass" behind their strikes to "cheat" and throw faster strikes. Personally, I've found it useful to be able to switch it up... Throw some light but fast strikes, but when your opponent decides they can disregard your "light" blows: that's when you load up on your shots.

[pateticorecords]

This is one of those Yes and No kinda answers.

Different styles have different theory and different approaches to any given situation. Hung Gar students may stand their ground and crush you with their powerful Tiger Claws. Monkey students may jump around hoping to distract you then pinch you in boys. Mantis fighters want to get in close to trap your hands to apply their technique. But in the end, a punch is a punch... A kick is a kick, yes?

When you look at why is there different stlyes and why not just one big Chinese martial art style. There are theories like using body power VS whipping power. Body power uses the legs to connect to the earth and drive thru the waist and express it in the hands (or head or foot etc etc). Whipping power use speed and torque to increase power in the hit. There are many other variables such as these thru out Chinese Kung Fu that give each style it's uniqueness.

You can cross train all of these any time you want, but in the end... it will all become your own personal interpretation then. If you train Hung Gar and Monkey you will have a mix.... Hung Monkey so to speak. This is ok if you like the results of your training. Because it's all you. Some people don't like this because you have "spoiled" a style. I don't think it matters much in todays society.

In the end YES you can mix styles, but NO you will not have anything pure anymore.

ginosifu

Great answer Ginosifu!

[pateticorecords]

I liked the way you phrased that. I think that most people simply remove a lot of the "mass" behind their strikes to "cheat" and throw faster strikes. Personally, I've found it useful to be able to switch it up... Throw some light but fast strikes, but when your opponent decides they can disregard your "light" blows: that's when you load up on your shots.

I agree with you... it's all about timing and execution. Also, the change in angles in a speed attack will open up spots that you can deliver heavier, more concentrated blows to.

Ying Yang;)

[MightyB]

I think that when you hit the point where forms/kuen become redundant, then you have to make a choice on where you want to go as a martial artist.

Do you want to specialize in your style? Then learn all of the requisite material -
Do you want to become a fighter? Then crosstrain your deficiencies and develop your strengths-
Do you want to find spiritual enlightenment? Then do what you do to get that-
Do you want to enjoy learning as much as you can about martial arts? Then crosstrain where your interests are-

Style doesn't really matter except in those cases where it matters to you-

Personally - I'm more of a seeker. I enjoy my base style and continue to practice and train it (7* Mantis) but I also take pleasure in the freedom of being able to pursue whatever catches my fancy. It certainly has led to a more enjoyable martial experience.

Now if I could only find a good Chen Tai Chi Sifu or Shuai Chiao - SC would've been my first choice for when I started cross training years ago but I had to settle for Judo.