Test Fees

[TenTigers]

as long as I've been training, pretty much all my teachers who had public schools, have charged testing fees.
In 1975, our TKD Black Belt fee was 500.00 (yikes!)
I know that it does bring in extra income to the school.
My question to the board is,
Do you charge?
How much do you charge?
When people ask why the fee, what is your answer?



I recall when I was in Tang Soo Do as well as in TKD, they charged us a membership fee. So we are "registered in Korea."
Great. So somewhere in Korea, in an old file cabinet, or a cardboard box, there is a piece of paper with my name on it.

[David Jamieson]

If you use that money to outfit someone with a new belt, uniform certificate, card and embed their name into the records of the system, then a nominal fee can be charged for providing those services.

the 500 bucks is a rip off clearly, but if you attach rewards and documentation, then that can be reasonably expected to cost something for someone to administer.

as well, your time in giving the tests.

[Syn7]

i would be willing to pay the cost of the belt/sash/uniform and paperwork... but nothing more... i pay to learn and once ive learned who the fukc are you to charge me to have you aknowledge my hard work in learning what i already paid for... i hate for profit schools that do this... absolute bullsh1t cash grab... if you cant cut it as a teacher just on lesson fees then you either suck or you have a crap biz plan... either way, get a real job...

i went to a mcdojo that did that when i was lil... i wised up before i spent much tho... ever since ive had cheap great instruction thru good decent people who were more concerned with my progresss than their wallet... i only train under cats that respect me...

[bawang]

as long as I've been training, pretty much all my teachers who had public schools, have charged testing fees.
In 1975, our TKD Black Belt fee was 500.00 (yikes!)
I know that it does bring in extra income to the south korean government.

fixed lolol

[pazman]

When I was a kid, testing fees for my TKD school were incredibly cheap. We were mostly charged a nominal fee for the next belt and feeding the testing board lunch.

The Aikido school in Japan where I trained charged a bit more. But at every test you were guaranteed expert advice from at least 3 different master level instructors. There was also a pool of black belts that acted as ukes and randori opponents. Thus, some of the fees went to travel expenses of the testing board and as payment to the ukes.

Testing in China, for foreigners....hahaha, forget that. The amount of money one has to pay, not just for testing, but to all the other louts who want a handout, is incredible. There are also no real standards by which foreigners are judged.:(

[Hardwork108]

as long as I've been training, pretty much all my teachers who had public schools, have charged testing fees.
In 1975, our TKD Black Belt fee was 500.00 (yikes!)
I know that it does bring in extra income to the school.
My question to the board is,
Do you charge?
How much do you charge?
When people ask why the fee, what is your answer?



I recall when I was in Tang Soo Do as well as in TKD, they charged us a membership fee. So we are "registered in Korea."
Great. So somewhere in Korea, in an old file cabinet, or a cardboard box, there is a piece of paper with my name on it.

You know, the traditional kung fu schools I ahve trained at have never had exams, let alone charge for them. You were kind of "promoted" when your skills improved and you absorbed certain bit of the art.

It is my understanding that this was part and parcel of traditional kung fu training.

[Syn7]

You know, the traditional kung fu schools I ahve trained at have never had exams, let alone charge for them. You were kind of "promoted" when your skills improved and you absorbed certain bit of the art.

It is my understanding that this was part and parcel of traditional kung fu training.

yeah.... what he said....

[TenTigers]

Like I said-in the more public schools there are usually test fees. My teachers who teach me in the parks or in their homes don't charge a fee.
What I am really interested in is hearing from school OWNERS. People who have real world knowledge of actually running a school.

[Syn7]

so are you looking for a reason to charge fees???


i know you said you want to ask teachers, but as a consumer i can tell you i wouldnt pay much if at all... ofcourse i'd be fully willing to pay for any materials involved, even at inflated "club" prices, just cause i'd want to help out... if i have the money i'll even donate, or pay for equipment for the kids and stuff... why not, if its somewhere u plan on sticking around, ya may as well help as much as you can... within reason ofcourse...



is anyone here actually well off from teaching??? or is it "comfortable"... i empathise because i know alot of schools dont last very long... i wish more people were interested... its tough for some people, so i can see why finding reasons to charge more money would be attractive... just be careful not to cross that line... nobody wants to be gouged...

[Northwind]

Testing in China, for foreigners....hahaha, forget that. The amount of money one has to pay, not just for testing, but to all the other louts who want a handout, is incredible. There are also no real standards by which foreigners are judged.:(

Sucks balls...When I lived in Singapore, it took me over one year to be able to "hang out" with the Chin Woo crowd there who wanted $300 down payment for "consideration" of me as a foreigner, while locals paid literally $15 per YEAR...

Don't know about testing fees with CW - as I made some good friends & learned some good things eventually, but outside of the normal system.

I teach bsl in a group where there are other teachers teaching other styles. None of us charge anything for testing (I am the only one who tests anyway), but I have been toying with $ ideas for different things and changing things up (only for me) recently, so this topic is actually interesting for me.

[PlumDragon]

A lot of people like to look down at testing fees...But what about those traditional red envelopes? Abused in the same way testing fees are. Northwids example above is another good one--testing fees arent nearly highway robbery on the same level as that.

My students pay me for my time; nothing more and nothing less. I pay my teachers for their time; nothing more and nothing less. No tests, no testing fees, no red envelopes. And as a side topic to this, my teachers have probably bought me more lunches and nights out, etc than I have bought them.

[TenTigers]

I've always charged testing fees. It pays for the time and extra effort of running a test, sashes, certificates, boards (I've always loved board breaking ever since my days in TKD, it makes for an exciting test, and a great motivator) membership cards, etc.
When I was in TKD, there was a sliding scale-yellow belt 40.00, green belt 45.00 etc, which I cannot agree to, so they are all the same fee.
Some schools charge more up front and do not have belt fees. We charge less, and offer unlimited classes. So I guess it evens out.
I was simply interested in how other schools do this.

[bawang]

thers no testing in kung fu man we have no belts or grades

[David Jamieson]

thers no testing in kung fu man we have no belts or grades

Even china has a duan system, and you can bet there's money involved with that.

What about all the chores and dreary suck work you have to do for your si fu. that's the same thing really, it just isn't tarnslated to a dollar value until recently.

Anyway, I got nothing against it. GUys gotta keep the lights on, the water heated, the air conditioned, the rent paid the floor clean etc etc.

You want all that for nothing? I would submit that a relook is required if you think you deserve all that for nothing.

Part of it is your work and part of it is taking care of who gave you taht material to work with. In an organized and structured school institution, it makes sense to do this.

just sayin

[bawang]

u can just train at someones hourse mang it cheep

the problem with teaching for money is there is only so much you can teach until u run out of material and student gets bored. because students are thinking theyre paying you x $ per form or something. im not gonna say impossible but its hard to instill the right mindset

so wot happens is u get over fancy teaching thats design on purpose to confuse students and make them take foreever to learn and progress.

or a lot of useless forms collected. good example is hong kong hung kuen collecting mantis and bak siu lum forms

[IronWeasel]

I recall when I was in Tang Soo Do as well as in TKD, they charged us a membership fee. So we are "registered in Korea."
Great. So somewhere in Korea, in an old file cabinet, or a cardboard box, there is a piece of paper with my name on it.




Lol!!!


That's awesome. :)

[mooyingmantis]

I agree with David on this one.

Young bucks today seem to want to get off cheap. Like the knowledge we received was so easy to get.

Some of us worked our asses off for decades to get the knowledge we now have. Back in the day you couldn't just look in the phone book and join the nearest kwoon. Often it was by invitation only. That was my experience.

Back then, everything was still treated like it was the holy grail. You had a pretty good idea that you were being shown crap until you had earned the right to learn anything worthwhile.

Every once in a while you would meet someone who was actually willing to show you the real deal without making you kiss their ass and jump through hoops for it. Though that was very rare.

Since my wife and I both have good secular jobs, money isn't a problem for us. And since I have no desire to teach just any clown who wants to sign up for classes, I can pick and choose who I want to teach.

Over the years I have used a number of pay scales for teaching. When I first started teaching (70s) I taught for free, but students were required to stay for a Bible study since I used teaching as a way to reaching out to inner-city kids.

Later I started charging a small fee for classes and ranks. Though at this time (80s), few schools had a structured rank system. I charged $25/month for classes and a test fee that covered the cost of the sash ($5-10).

In the 90s I decided to try something new, since I hate dealing with money. Students paid a one time fee of $250 to train with me. I didn't matter if they stayed six weeks or six years. I also charged a one time test fee ($100) at the end of their training if they desired to teach.

A few years ago I remodeled my two car garage into a very nice training hall. It has more than enough room to train, since I never take more than five students at a time. I no longer have any overhead, so I teach most for free and again only charge a testing fee that covers the cost of the sash (less than $10). The only students I charge now are other instructors who want to add what I teach to there curriculum. So, far I have trained eight other instructors of various arts.

My students who received permission to teach, handle finances however they like. One does it as a part of his church ministry and offers free lessons as a youth outreach. Another has a school of about 80-100 students and makes a nice living by teaching martial arts. Others have jobs that support their families, while charging enough for lessons to have nice modern training facilities. I say whatever floats your boat is fine.

[SifuYui]

Hi Rik,

These are the fees we charge for testing at NYHG. But we don't have to make a living off of it as you do. The fee includes the new sash and a certificate, and anyone testing has been told they are ready to go to the next rank (old school way), and that the testing is merely a formality (new school way). Everyone testing will pass unless for some reason they screw up royally.

We break the test up into 5 sections: Forms, Knowledge, self-defense, Sparring/ground fighting, and endurance.

I hope this helps.

Yui

NEW YORK HUNG GA PROMOTION TEST

Gung Ji/Fuk Fu - $35 5-Animal/Pole - $45
Fu Hok/Darn Do - $40 Jo Gow - $50

[ginosifu]

TT;
For public or commercial schools, test fees are not just about charging extra... Everything has a cost: Belts, Sashes, Certificates even the day itself has a cost because you could have been making other $ teaching regular classes.

People have a cost as well. When I register a student I have to use paper, computer, file cabinet etc etc which cost me money. When I send this students name to my teacher... he has costs and I also must give him a cut of the reg fee and when he sends this students info to Sigung Wing Lam... the same thing, he has costs and he wants his cut as well.

Everybody has costs involved in operating their school. I know some Karate teachers who pay the throwing dummies during Black Belt Exams. Testing fees, most commercial schools give a cut to the main GM. Everyone wants a piece of the pie so to speak.

I know there are some of you who think it's rip off but in reality... were getting paid for a service we provide.

Test Fee = $50 each is common

Black Sash = $350 - 500

ginosifu

[sifudrew4870]

The kwoon I am associated with here in Louisiana, from the start, has had a sliding scale for it's testing fees, that I believe, is respectful of the students, covers the costs associated with testing, and shows gratitude to both Sifu, Si Gung, and system/style.
White, Yellow, Gold, are $ 50.00
Orange,Green are $40.00
Purple,Maroon are $ 30.00
Brown is $20.00
Black Level one is $10.00
All beyond this level are free.

[ShaolinDan]

some of my belt tests have lasted as long as five hours (and change)...To pay $30 for my shifu's time and a new sash seems cheap to me.
Our testing fees go up as rank goes up (but I don't think they ever get past $50), the more material you're tested on, the more time it takes... makes sense to me.

Also, tests (at least in my school) are not just a check up on your material, they're a really long, really intense training session...why not pay for that?

[Syn7]

A lot of people like to look down at testing fees...But what about those traditional red envelopes? Abused in the same way testing fees are. Northwids example above is another good one--testing fees arent nearly highway robbery on the same level as that.

My students pay me for my time; nothing more and nothing less. I pay my teachers for their time; nothing more and nothing less. No tests, no testing fees, no red envelopes. And as a side topic to this, my teachers have probably bought me more lunches and nights out, etc than I have bought them.

my sifu gives me a red envelope with cash in it before every performance... then he buys us lunch after... we pay 60 a month no fees... and we get half of it back in envelopes and food... plus 3 days a week each for four hours or sometimes more depending on the mood.... so we get roughly 50 hours, red envelopes, food, use of gear and space for 60 bucks a month... we have shirts but no real uniforms and we never will... we only wear a sash for show and lion dance(coz u need it in lion dance)... there are no levels, just real skill levels and its obvious top everyone who is good at what.... we dont need recognition on paper... we are there to learn and grow, not to be recognized... if i wanted that i'd hit up a mc dojo... i dont need to be stroked, i got women for that...

[sifudrew4870]

Sifu Perry told me early on, the reason he set the fees that way, was because the student had not only literally, but figuratively, paid his dues. And at the time of being informed of the upcoming test, knew, and had proven so, the material required. The test, however physical it would be, was, in effect, a formality. And, the student having had the fortitude and commitment to perservere through the demands of the training, was rewarded. And while Sifu Perry charges monthly dues, he enjoys nothing better than teaching a student who is interested and dedicated, as he is. I respect him so much for this.

[Syn7]

can anyone tell me what is accomplished with testing??? like whats the point???

i understand richards point, if they want to teach they need some sort of credit.... fair enough... but why does a casual or even serious student need testing??? is recognition for hard work and obvious ability not enough???

[Northwind]

To make sure they know the material. Sparring etc. does not do this. Let's say form X has 108 moves. Bob likes 5 of those moves and has practiced them a gazillion times in a gazillion different ways and tends to use about 3 of them consistently well while sparring. Bob shows the proper energy, focus, conditioning, etc. etc. and kicks butt on sparring nights. Does this show that Bob knows form X inside & out? No - so we test Bob and say show us form X...

[sifudrew4870]

I consider it an honor, when asked to perform or demonstrate my Kung Fu in the presence of Sifu Perry and my fellow students, and whatever guests may be in attendance. And, when testing, it is not unusual for there to be special guests, perhaps Sifu McDaniels from Marshall, Sifu Medley from Richardson,or perhaps, on very special occasions, SiGung Fogg. It is showing, publicly, I am proud of the treasure I've recieved, and am honored to present my Kung Fu in reverence to those who helped to propogate and maintain the style for the times. I value to knowledge trusted to me, and show such.

[Oso]

TenTigers:

$25 per sash level up to Black. Included sash and my time for the test.

$100 at Black. Was planning to do $100 per degree level past that but tis moot now.

oh, and it was well known that 'Shifu' liked a certain Mexican restuarant and the margaritas therein... :) (not relavent for the kids tests, of course.)

[Oso]

The kwoon I am associated with here in Louisiana, from the start, has had a sliding scale for it's testing fees, that I believe, is respectful of the students, covers the costs associated with testing, and shows gratitude to both Sifu, Si Gung, and system/style.
White, Yellow, Gold, are $ 50.00
Orange,Green are $40.00
Purple,Maroon are $ 30.00
Brown is $20.00
Black Level one is $10.00
All beyond this level are free.

Interesting. I like it.

[ShaolinDan]

can anyone tell me what is accomplished with testing??? like whats the point???

i understand richards point, if they want to teach they need some sort of credit.... fair enough... but why does a casual or even serious student need testing??? is recognition for hard work and obvious ability not enough???

Well, for one thing, a lot of time it's the students who want to test (who want colored belts) more than the teachers. Teachers just adapt to what they want. I don't mind ranking, for me it's a good incentive to work on material I might otherwise let slide (as Northwind suggests).

As far as testing in my school...our tests are really a test. They are harder than any normal class. In order to perform well at the end of the test, it takes more than just knowing the material and working out in class, you really have to 'dig' for the 'chi' to make it.

That said, it is rare anyone who tests does not pass, but I have seen it happen a few times.

testing is a ritual, like a coming of age ceremony. It makes publicly visible what is happening anyway. For a community this is important, even if individuals can transcend it.

[bawang]

sounds like u guys cant let go of ur old karate days
testing strokes ur ego and make u feel good. masterbating does that too. why dont u guys add masterbating as part of ur tests to make ur students feel extra good

[ShaolinDan]

sounds like u guys cant let go of ur old karate days
testing strokes ur ego and make u feel good. masterbating does that too. why dont u guys add masterbating as part of ur tests to make ur students feel extra good

Tell me how you really feel.... :)

[ginosifu]

can anyone tell me what is accomplished with testing??? like whats the point???

i understand richards point, if they want to teach they need some sort of credit.... fair enough... but why does a casual or even serious student need testing??? is recognition for hard work and obvious ability not enough???

A lot of you guys just don't get it. Some of you are a hard core bunch of old schoolers and you guys are the minority. I was the same way as some of you, my teacher did not charge me very much and I never really tested until I was going for my Black Sash and Sifu's degree.

What you don't realize it that the average person is not like us older folk. They do not understand the concepts of Sifu and student. To them you are their life coach or someone to push them a bit. There is no more old school thought that this is a serious matter to train and learn the ancient code of the martial artist. To the modern person this is just a hobby or exercise class that keep them occupied a couple days a week.

To answer your question about testing: Testing only gives the average person a gage to see where they are compared to their friends. It also keep them focusing on small short term goals such as testing every 3 months or so. This way, these short term goals keep people from wandering off track or losing sight of the bigger picture. People that do not test, usually quit sooner or earlier than people on a regulated testing program. These are the facts of running a commercial school. Everytime I get a person who says they want to just "TRAIN", they are not interested in testing because they supposedly old school.... They are the first to quit... cause their bored...

Most of you who complain... I feel your pain. I used to teach an old school class where there is just training and work them hard and don't worry bout testing and it's geared for people to learn a real good ole fahioned "kung fu". No one ever lasts more then a month or 2. It's just not for the modern person.

ginosifu

[Syn7]

To make sure they know the material. Sparring etc. does not do this. Let's say form X has 108 moves. Bob likes 5 of those moves and has practiced them a gazillion times in a gazillion different ways and tends to use about 3 of them consistently well while sparring. Bob shows the proper energy, focus, conditioning, etc. etc. and kicks butt on sparring nights. Does this show that Bob knows form X inside & out? No - so we test Bob and say show us form X...

well then, in that respect, im tested every class... no fees, just show and prove...

[Syn7]

A lot of you guys just don't get it. Some of you are a hard core bunch of old schoolers and you guys are the minority. I was the same way as some of you, my teacher did not charge me very much and I never really tested until I was going for my Black Sash and Sifu's degree.

What you don't realize it that the average person is not like us older folk. They do not understand the concepts of Sifu and student. To them you are their life coach or someone to push them a bit. There is no more old school thought that this is a serious matter to train and learn the ancient code of the martial artist. To the modern person this is just a hobby or exercise class that keep them occupied a couple days a week.

To answer your question about testing: Testing only gives the average person a gage to see where they are compared to their friends. It also keep them focusing on small short term goals such as testing every 3 months or so. This way, these short term goals keep people from wandering off track or losing sight of the bigger picture. People that do not test, usually quit sooner or earlier than people on a regulated testing program. These are the facts of running a commercial school. Everytime I get a person who says they want to just "TRAIN", they are not interested in testing because they supposedly old school.... They are the first to quit... cause their bored...

Most of you who complain... I feel your pain. I used to teach an old school class where there is just training and work them hard and don't worry bout testing and it's geared for people to learn a real good ole fahioned "kung fu". No one ever lasts more then a month or 2. It's just not for the modern person.

ginosifu
we do it and we didnt quit... theres a strong core of dedicated students... sifu does it for the love, not the cash... he has a day job and more money than most of us who attend... so he doesnt need to reach into our pockets... and if it really came down to it and we needed cash for something specific, we would all just pitch in and make it happen as best we could...

recently sifu spent like 3 grand on new sparring gear... he was happy to do it cause he wants to spar more... simple right??? if he had needed help paying for it we would have all chipped in, but we didnt need to this time...


hey now, nobody is complaining in my class other than a few lil kids on begginer classes, they would rather play nintendo ds in the back than to do any learning let alone any hard workout... but theyre just kids so its all good...

yes a few adults come thru and dont llast coz they are lazy or its not what they thought it was... but most of us are between 25 and 60 and we all work hard and sifu has time for all of us... you take intruction from your seniors and you are "tested" later on by sifu... but there is no fee for that and if there was i would be dissapointed... i dunno if that makes us "ol skool" or what... it is what it is and im happy with it... i wouldnt put up with fees for every time we're tested because it happens so often... and yes it does take time away from other training but thats the nature of the beast and sifu gets that... he can work with me in the back for 20 minutes while the rest do a class with the seniors in charge... its pretty standard stuff i thought... aside from the cash grabbers, the soakers, the gougers and the mc dojos, i thought my experience was par for the course...

[Shaolin]

as long as I've been training, pretty much all my teachers who had public schools, have charged testing fees.
In 1975, our TKD Black Belt fee was 500.00 (yikes!)
I know that it does bring in extra income to the school.
My question to the board is,
Do you charge?
How much do you charge?
When people ask why the fee, what is your answer?



I recall when I was in Tang Soo Do as well as in TKD, they charged us a membership fee. So we are "registered in Korea."
Great. So somewhere in Korea, in an old file cabinet, or a cardboard box, there is a piece of paper with my name on it.

You think like a martial arts teacher. You don't think like an entrepreneur/business man. You will probably not be successful as one. Stick with teaching.

[Hardwork108]

Just to add. For me, every class should be like a test where the sifu (and/or the seniors) watches the students' strengths, while at the same time, he corrects their weaknesses. This is how I felt in every class of Chow Gar and Wing Chun.

I personally think that one should be judged by what one puts into his training in every session, and no, testes don't always reflect that!

[Syn7]

Just to add. For me, every class should be like a test where the sifu (and/or the seniors) watches the students' strengths, while at the same time, he corrects their weaknesses. This is how I felt in every class of Chow Gar and Wing Chun.

I personally think that one should be judged by what one puts into his training in every session, and no, testes don't always reflect that!




i agree with hardwork108...

but in my case, my testes have always reflected my great manhood!!!:rolleyes:


nice typo, worked out tho...

[Hardwork108]

i agree with hardwork108...

but in my case, my testes have always reflected my great manhood!!!:rolleyes:
You must have your testes mirror polished. :D



nice typo, worked out tho...

Even geniuses make mistakes...;)

[Syn7]

You must have your testes mirror polished. :D




Even geniuses make mistakes...;)

i have them licked clean and then polished by her hand daily... in return i make sure to test her sensitivity in as many creative ways as i can come up with... fair trade...

[ginosifu]

yes a few adults come thru and dont llast coz they are lazy or its not what they thought it was... but most of us are between 25 and 60 and we all work hard and sifu has time for all of us... you take intruction from your seniors and you are "tested" later on by sifu... but there is no fee for that and if there was i would be dissapointed... i dunno if that makes us "ol skool" or what... it is what it is and im happy with it... i wouldnt put up with fees for every time we're tested because it happens so often... and yes it does take time away from other training but thats the nature of the beast and sifu gets that... he can work with me in the back for 20 minutes while the rest do a class with the seniors in charge... its pretty standard stuff i thought... aside from the cash grabbers, the soakers, the gougers and the mc dojos, i thought my experience was par for the course...

You guys are old school. The majority of the population has a different mindset. You say your teacher has a day job.... that right there states that your sifu does not need any $$$. So he teaches for the love of teaching. make teaching his sole income and he will sing a different tune.

I wish that I could just teach for the love of teaching... my wife would kick me out until I could afford to keep her happy.

ginosifu

[Syn7]

i hear ya... and i have friends that have schools, so i get it... most schools fail because most teachers put the art ahead of profits because they love their art... thats why they chose to try and make a career out of it... its a tough balancing act, and i get that... the gyms that are doing the best are the mma and grappling gyms... gracie/barra does well up here, marcus soares, denis kang yadda yadda yadda are the ones making real money... the traditional kung fu schools are out of the limelight now and have moved back into the unassuming anonymous type of buildings in chinatown and other chinese areas... it will be like a door with no sign, or a lil sign, and an iron gate that opens to stairs, up or down, and into some old spot with old men doing taiji in the kitchen and old ladies playing ma jong in the back room... more than adequate, but not the kinda thing you throw on a flyer and brag about... but personally, i love it... i like the kids too, you learn alot from teaching kids... i love watching them grow and expand into better lil people...

if i were to take a shot at it i think i would try and find a partner who has a biz degree or i'd go get one myself... if not a degree, atleast some classes to get a handle on it and develop a realistic and impressive business model... workout my margins and try and find ways to diversify my income within that model... whether it be selling gear or whatever...


so i guess we are old skool... to me its like anything less would just not be for me...

[Northwind]

...snip...spot with old men doing taiji in the kitchen and old ladies playing ma jong in the back room...
My kinda party
Not being sarcastic - I actually have majiang/mahjong parties at my house every other weekend (no joke - thus my avatar and lil quote). Gimme majiang & fu together like that and omg...:P


if i were to take a shot at it i think i would try and find a partner who has a biz degree or i'd go get one myself...
And don't forget a small business loan or an angel investor or a hefty sum of back up in order to buy or rent or lease a joint - none of which I have been able to secure in past 15 years :( It's a tough game for sure.

[mooyingmantis]

My experience has been the same as a few others that posted previously. Students typically want belts/sashes. The karate, TKD and Judo schools have had too much of an influence on American thinking when it comes to martial arts.

In my 33 years of teaching, I have always hated the concept of material rewards for learning. Here is why. Do the students who trained with me two decades ago and received rank still meet up to that rank's standard? They have a certificate they can show to their friends that validates their skill level at the time of testing, but have they maintained or increased that skill level over the years? I have often thought rank levels should have a time limit where they expire and the student must come back and demonstrate their current skills to renew the certificate.

I think oriental instructors have a much easier time pushing old school methods. Many of the unwashed masses see them as gods who can demand pretty much what they want and get it. It is not so easy for us occidentals. We are not taken as seriously till a student has been with us for a few years and sees our dedication to the arts.

I have considered expanding to teaching full time a few times over the years. Yet, every time I have gotten close to that goal, I found that I hated worrying about the financial end of things.

For over ten years I have watched Gino struggle with the dichotomy of trying to teach a quality program (which he does) and giving the masses what they want so that he can keep the doors open. He starts his day at the school before I do at my secular profession and is still teaching at the school, hours after I have left work. He picks up classes at day-cares and nursing homes, beside his classes at his training hall. Fortunately, he has a very understanding wife and he tries hard not to sacrifice his family for his business pursuit. However, it is a very delicate balancing act. This has shown me that I am unwilling to sacrifice all my time to teach martial arts. So, I continue to teach it part time.

In my opinion, making a decent living for taking on this type of commitment is not asking too much of his students.

[ginosifu]

They have a certificate they can show to their friends that validates their skill level at the time of testing, but have they maintained or increased that skill level over the years? I have often thought rank levels should have a time limit where they expire and the student must come back and demonstrate their current skills to renew the certificate.

Richard,
This is a good idea... I may try and put this into fruition. I have students that leave (for whatever reason), they come back years later and ask..."Is my rank still valid?" "Do I have to start over?" I want to tel them that the need to start over but I know they will never continue if they have start from the beginning. So I tell them their rank is valid, but they need to spend a certain amount of time revamping their old material. This way they are relearning their old material without me actually telling them they have to start over.

ginosifu

[TenTigers]

They have a certificate they can show to their friends that validates their skill level at the time of testing, but have they maintained or increased that skill level over the years? I have often thought rank levels should have a time limit where they expire and the student must come back and demonstrate their current skills to renew the certificate.

Richard,
This is a good idea... I may try and put this into fruition. I have students that leave (for whatever reason), they come back years later and ask..."Is my rank still valid?" "Do I have to start over?" I want to tel them that the need to start over but I know they will never continue if they have start from the beginning. So I tell them their rank is valid, but they need to spend a certain amount of time revamping their old material. This way they are relearning their old material without me actually telling them they have to start over.

ginosifu

good points.
I always have old students come back (sometimes they bring their kids-Boy, that makes me feel old..) But they are more than happy to go over their material. They don't want to feel stupid in front of their juniors.
The JKA has their Black Belts and instructors attend yearly review/workouts in order to maintain their status. Good idea in my book.

[IronWeasel]

This is a good idea... I may try and put this into fruition. I have students that leave (for whatever reason), they come back years later and ask..."Is my rank still valid?" "Do I have to start over?" I want to tel them that the need to start over but I know they will never continue if they have start from the beginning. So I tell them their rank is valid, but they need to spend a certain amount of time revamping their old material. This way they are relearning their old material without me actually telling them they have to start over.

ginosifu


We've had people return after taking many years off, and they ususally have to spend some time in the intermediate class refreshing their material.

[A BIONIC LEG]

I just spent a year stationed at Osan AB in Korea and I was honored to study under GM Yim Hon Suk and I had to pay $150 a month to study under his direct tutleage, and thats not including registration fee and testing fee. Granted that is a quite a bit of money but I can understand paying that much to study under someone of his experience. With that being said I can also understand instructors not charging because of the "love of the art" verses the "business." When I first got into Kung Fu I studied under a friend in the states that only charged "what we could give" but when we tested we did have to pay a $50 testing fee and that went to the senior instructor. I've been on both ends of the spectrum and as much as it hurts my wallet I feel as though I can appreciate spending the money to be taught legitamate instruction. Please understand that I am not for any seccond nocking those that do not pay for instruction, but as previously stated in a quote "my gung fu is not your gung fu."

[Iron_Eagle_76]

In my gym all testing is 15 dollars.

It pays for the sash and the certificate. This is from the first sash which is yellow all the way up to black. I do not teach for a living, so I can understand those who may charge a bit more for testing, but for those saying they are charging for the time it takes for the test, aren't your students paying monthly dues? Does that not cover that time as well?

Not trying to flame anyone, I really could careless. Just something to think about.

[ginosifu]

In my gym all testing is 15 dollars.

It pays for the sash and the certificate. This is from the first sash which is yellow all the way up to black. I do not teach for a living, so I can understand those who may charge a bit more for testing, but for those saying they are charging for the time it takes for the test, aren't your students paying monthly dues? Does that not cover that time as well?

Not trying to flame anyone, I really could careless. Just something to think about.

Look at it this way.... If I have to take a day off of work, where I could have been doing something else (not their class time), like private lessons or some other money making venture. I think they need to pay for the time I am losing. I do not give tests during class cause not everyone tests and it would interupt the class flow.

Their tuition only covers their class time... no other !

ginosifu

[Shaolindynasty]

wtf, who complains about giving their sifu a few extra bucks then claims to be "traditional"?

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Look at it this way.... If I have to take a day off of work, where I could have been doing something else (not their class time), like private lessons or some other money making venture. I think they need to pay for the time I am losing. I do not give tests during class cause not everyone tests and it would interupt the class flow.

Their tuition only covers their class time... no other !

ginosifu

I see what you mean, Gino. Like I said I'm not trying to stir the pot, just throwing in my two cents.


As for throwing bucks at your Sifu, sure, I guess that is fine, it's your money, do what you want with it. But I call BS when someone is charging 500 dollars for a testing fee, I don't care if it is for black belt.

[Syn7]

the problem with fees is that they give a financial incentive to move a student along faster than they would had money not been involved...

[Iron_Eagle_76]

the problem with fees is that they give a financial incentive to move a student along faster than they would had money not been involved...

The other problem is the amount of grading and testing that goes on. Do we really need 14 belts with 2 or three gradings per belt, and get charged for each one of these? Testing students every 2 months and charging some outrageous testing fee is where the term "McDojo" was coined from.

[mooyingmantis]

The other problem is the amount of grading and testing that goes on. Do we really need 14 belts with 2 or three gradings per belt, and get charged for each one of these? Testing students every 2 months and charging some outrageous testing fee is where the term "McDojo" was coined from.

Yet, there are successful McDojos teaching crap and raking in the dough in every city. Why can't peeps who are teaching the real deal make a comfortable living? Whatever the market will bear is the hallmark of good business.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Yet, there are successful McDojos teaching crap and raking in the dough in every city. Why can't peeps who are teaching the real deal make a comfortable living? Whatever the market will bear is the hallmark of good business.

Richard,

I think the main problem with this is people just don't look into things enough to realize what it is. To you and I it seems like common knowledge but to most martial arts is martial arts. I have talked to several people who studied at bad schools and they always tell me the same thing, that they thought it just didn't matter, martial arts is martial arts.

I agree that it is sad that those good instructors and legitimate schools struggle to make an honest living teaching while the McDojos rake in big bucks by duping the ignorant. The only thing we can really do is try and educate as many as we can as to what to look for in a school and instructor. As I said before, if an instructor is charging 200 dollars per test and testing students every month or two, someone is trying for early retirement!

[TenTigers]

Richard,

As I said before, if an instructor is charging 200 dollars per test and testing students every month or two, someone is trying for early retirement!

I don't think anyone charges near that much for regular testing.
The average is anywhere from 40.00 to 60.00.


"I agree that it is sad that those good instructors and legitimate schools struggle to make an honest living teaching while the McDojos rake in big bucks by duping the ignorant."

I do see your point, however, there is also nothing wrong with good instructors and legitimate schools getting well paid for their time and efforts.
If you're struggling, it doesn't mean you are good or have more integrity.
Although it may indicate you don't value yourself, or what you do, or have business knowledge.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

I don't think anyone charges near that much for regular testing.
The average is anywhere from 40.00 to 60.00.


"I agree that it is sad that those good instructors and legitimate schools struggle to make an honest living teaching while the McDojos rake in big bucks by duping the ignorant."

I do see your point, however, there is also nothing wrong with good instructors and legitimate schools getting well paid for their time and efforts.
If you're struggling, it doesn't mean you are good or have more integrity.
Although it may indicate you don't value yourself, or what you do, or have business knowledge.

If people are willing to pay for the services, than who is to say it is wrong. The point I was making is that in my experience, the schools who charge ridiculous fees including hefty testing prices are usually McDojos that teach complete crap. This is not always the case I know, and I don't mean to generalize, just what my experience is. If someone is teaching a good fighting art and charges high prices or whatever else who is to say that is wrong? They are not teaching crap and lying to people, so if people are willing to pay, good for them.

My rant was geared more towards the "McDojo" type that are about charging outrageous fees for crap training. As for the 500 dollar fee for a black belt test, sorry, I still say that is way too much. But that's my opinion, take it with a grain of salt.

[Syn7]

I don't think anyone charges near that much for regular testing.
The average is anywhere from 40.00 to 60.00.

and on average how often would a guy be tested if he practiced and worked an average amount of time....???

once a year? once a month? 5 times a year??? what???

[TenTigers]

and on average how often would a guy be tested if he practiced and worked an average amount of time....???

once a year? once a month? 5 times a year??? what???
good question.
Ok, according to "the industry leaders," (these are people who have large schools and multiple school operations-Steve LaVallee, Ernie Reyes, Tom Callas, Tat Wong, etc) your curriculum should be set up so that a student tests every three months. They found that when people go longer between tests, they lose momentum and motivation. They also figure that you should hold tests every month so that each month you are testing one third of your student body.
The key to student retention are student service, a well thought out curriculum, periodic testing, and exciting, high energy classes.

[Syn7]

ok and what are your hourly rates for individual sessions??? and how long does your average test take??? and can you do more than one at a time??? can you do 2 or 3 at once??? more???

[A BIONIC LEG]

I will say that while studding under GM Yim he charges the $150 but its up to you as to how long you spend in the studio. He opens up at 1300 and closes between 1900 and 2000 3 days aweek however there are senior students that are there when he is not.

My point is, his take is as long as the doors are open you can practice as long or as short as you would like, granted class starts when the other students get there but you can leave in 30 minutes if you so disire, but it is up to you on how much time you spend in practice.

As far as paying for testing goes he does test once a month but he will determine weather or not you are ready to test so if he feels in a month your not ready, you don't test. When it comes to testing for your 1st degree black sash you pay $100 but that consitst of 3 tests spread out as long as he feels is necessary, (your **** has to be PERFECT) as your sash is now attached to his name.

So $500 bucks for a black belt... forget it. If your paying $500 for a black belt you better be able to crush a 2x4 with your junk.

[ginosifu]

and on average how often would a guy be tested if he practiced and worked an average amount of time....???

once a year? once a month? 5 times a year??? what???


ok and what are your hourly rates for individual sessions??? and how long does your average test take??? and can you do more than one at a time??? can you do 2 or 3 at once??? more???

We test students every 3 months. Basic tests may range from 30 minutes to 1 hour. Black Sash exams are 2 days long. Self Defense and Sparring on one day and Forms and drills on the other. Also is 200 question exam is also given.

Hourly rates? I charge somewhere between $75 and $100 dollars an hour for private sessions. Average student rates are between $99 and $129 per month

ginosifu

[ginosifu]

So $500 bucks for a black belt... forget it. If your paying $500 for a black belt you better be able to crush a 2x4 with your junk.

Most commercial schools charge between $350 and $500 for a Black belt. I have also talked with many Karate Sensei who say they pay their Uki (practice dummy or guy that gets thrown) $100 each. Also with commercial schools is that many have GM who get a cut of the Exam Fee. With all the costs involved, if you do not charge $350 or above, you may ended up losing money.

ginosifu

[A BIONIC LEG]

Most commercial schools charge between $350 and $500 for a Black belt. I have also talked with many Karate Sensei who say they pay their Uki (practice dummy or guy that gets thrown) $100 each. Also with commercial schools is that many have GM who get a cut of the Exam Fee. With all the costs involved, if you do not charge $350 or above, you may ended up losing money.

ginosifu


Ok well that does make a whole lot more sense, please forgive my ignorance.

[bawang]

whenever i dream of being a kung fu teacher i think of my first teacher, an old lonely ,wifeless, jaded, shirvelled up shell of a man, forever doomed to kiss the ass of mentally disturbed children of ex hippies. this is why i stay in school.

seriously speaking, america is still racist and kung fu will never be popular. think about it

[LSWCTN1]

good question.
Ok, according to "the industry leaders," (these are people who have large schools and multiple school operations-Steve LaVallee, Ernie Reyes, Tom Callas, Tat Wong, etc) your curriculum should be set up so that a student tests every three months. They found that when people go longer between tests, they lose momentum and motivation. They also figure that you should hold tests every month so that each month you are testing one third of your student body.
The key to student retention are student service, a well thought out curriculum, periodic testing, and exciting, high energy classes.

where did you come across this information?

[bawang]

thats all part of cult brainwashing. u make students invest so much money testing they feel OBLIGED to keep coming even if they hate it

[Syn7]

i dunno... i still dont agree with the fees... and to be honest, i dont agree with grading... there are no grades at my school... it comes down to time in and skill level... both very obvious to anyone paying attention... grades are simply not needed...

besides, martial arts are a parishable skill... black belt today, fat fukc down the road... still a black belt??? not quite... sure maybe alot of knowledge is retained but if you cant DO it then you arent a black belt... with the exeption of honorary titles being retained by those who are still active and full of knowledge but are simply too old to move the way they used to...

i like how our school works and i'll never go back to one that grades... to me its just so irrelevant and pointless... its an ego thing and a cash grab(self admitted as the main argument here seems to be that a sifu deserves a living too)... parents want to see their kids rewarded and kids grow up thinking they need that title...

in reality all that is needed is skill and knowledge... and any good sifu can tell you when and where you need improvement without formal testing...

and how does this work..? if i dont pay a test fee to move up a grade i wont learn anything new???

[bawang]

martial arts is supposed to set u free but some people become slaves to it
man that was deep

[Syn7]

martial arts is supposed to set u free but some people become slaves to it
man that was deep

dont fall in....

[bawang]

at least u guys arent as bad as yang jwing mings 100k dollar scam lol
paying 10k a year to learn tai chi and lift weights is the funniest thing ive seen ever

[taai gihk yahn]

at least u guys arent as bad as yang jwing mings 100k dollar scam lol
paying 10k a year to learn tai chi and lift weights is the funniest thing ive seen ever

well, to be fair, they do learn horsemanship and archery, as well as how to cook Chinese food and read classical Chinese poetry, so, I mean, you know...

[Iron_Eagle_76]

martial arts is supposed to set u free but some people become slaves to it
man that was deep

In the immortal words of Andrew Dice Clay:

"He's a poet and didn't know it, HEEEEYYYYY!"

[Dr.Rob]

The comments on this thread are awesome.

For the 2 schools I ran, I was taught that the test fee was to reflect the time that a private lesson would be per hour.

Black Belt test normally a morning or afternoon event? no?

$ 350 to $ 500 seems fair to have a school for yourself with an uki and a sensei?

In Chinese martial arts should be around the same, if there is set fighting and sparring. Weapons.

My neighbour who owns a cookie cutter kung fu San Shou school. States testing is done twice a year. Black Belt test is all 2 on one. Sifu picks your opponents.

Now there is money to be made, if the market will bear. Buyer beware.

[TenTigers]

whenever i dream of being a kung fu teacher i think of my first teacher, an old lonely ,wifeless, jaded, shirvelled up shell of a man, forever doomed to kiss the ass of mentally disturbed children of ex hippies. this is why i stay in school.


Bawang-when did you train with me?

[ginosifu]

i dunno... i still dont agree with the fees... and to be honest, i dont agree with grading... there are no grades at my school... it comes down to time in and skill level... both very obvious to anyone paying attention... grades are simply not needed...

besides, martial arts are a parishable skill... black belt today, fat fukc down the road... still a black belt??? not quite... sure maybe alot of knowledge is retained but if you cant DO it then you arent a black belt... with the exeption of honorary titles being retained by those who are still active and full of knowledge but are simply too old to move the way they used to...

i like how our school works and i'll never go back to one that grades... to me its just so irrelevant and pointless... its an ego thing and a cash grab(self admitted as the main argument here seems to be that a sifu deserves a living too)... parents want to see their kids rewarded and kids grow up thinking they need that title...

in reality all that is needed is skill and knowledge... and any good sifu can tell you when and where you need improvement without formal testing...

and how does this work..? if i dont pay a test fee to move up a grade i wont learn anything new???

There is nothing wrong with the way you guys do it. Don't feel bad cause you are not one the new modern world students or schools. If Ihad my way, I would teach old school like you guys.

ginosifu

[Syn7]

i guess i can sum it up like this...

why would i go to your school and pay more in the end than i would from getting the same level of instruction from somebody who isnt doing it for the money, has other sources of income and is more than willing to give their time to keep their art alive??? in my experience, these teachers arent at all hard to find if you are somewhat competent and take the time to look around... buyer beware is right, why would i not maximize the value of my dollar when i have a choice??? my sifu was groomed to be a teacher since he was a kid... but he's a smart man and makes money outside of his art and first true love... infact its because its his first true love that he did go out and find alternate sources of income... and these sources give him the power to pas down his culture without charging fees that everyone can afford... alot of the kids in our class couldnt afford your instruction... would you teach them for free??? or make exeptions for testing fees and maybe charge less monthly to those who want to learn but have struggling parents, or worse a single mother who needs to find a positive male role model for their child???

i honestly believe that most people willing to pay these fees arent aware that they can get the same level of instruction for less money... and if everyone wised up, what would you do???

[ginosifu]

alot of the kids in our class couldnt afford your instruction... would you teach them for free??? or make exeptions for testing fees and maybe charge less monthly to those who want to learn but have struggling parents, or worse a single mother who needs to find a positive male role model for their child???

i honestly believe that most people willing to pay these fees arent aware that they can get the same level of instruction for less money... and if everyone wised up, what would you do???

#1 I give breaks to people that truly can not afford (single moms / parents with 2 or 3 kids etc etc).

#2 There are those who teach for a lot less around me.... and there are people that say they can not afford my price. This is not a dis respect if peeps can not afford my price.... I am honest with them. I tell them of the other guys that might be cheaper.

#3 Syn7 you are a minority. You are what I call the 1% (like me). Of the average person, 99% of everyone else does not think like you.

The average person drives my school everyday...They stop in take a class and I tell them the price... most join. If I were to tell them off the teacher who teaches for cheaper (he is across town about a 25-30 minute drive), he would tell me that he is not worth it cause of the amount time it would take him to drive there and back. It's happened before!

No single mom is going to drive across town or into a "bad" neighborhood....just to get a cheaper rate. It is not sensible nor is it convenient for a single mom or family who has basketball (child A) on this side if town and cheer leading (child B) at their high school for them to travel an additional 30 minutes just for child C to have Kung Fu.

people have options and I do not lie to them... they chose me because I am a competent teacher who can give then what they want. If a person truly want a traditional sifu that teaches out of his garage because of the Love of it then I tell them. There's a few of them around.

ginosifu

[Syn7]

i dont grudge you your living at all... and if people choose to pay your rates thats on them and im happy for you, dont get me wrong... i just dont get it... but i can see how it would be easier, not cheaper, to just go with whats close and familiar...

but then tv dinners and cheap plastic bubble wrapped disposable products are easier too... but not cheaper in the long run...

for me, im talking ideology here, not economics... from an economics standpoint, get all you can get, by all means... you fit somewheres in the middle...

[bawang]

for me, im talking ideology here, not economics... from an economics standpoint, get all you can get, by all means... you fit somewheres in the middle...
the ideology IS economics

[wenshu]

How about instead of fees and exams, a system of rank where in order to advance the neophytes must kill the person holding the rank above them in ritualized open combat. So on and so forth until upon murdering the Master, they then become the Master, until they are themselves slaughtered by an advancing student. . .

http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/17/1733/EOE3D00Z/posters/brock-h-m-in-classical-mythology-aeneas-finds-the-golden-bough.jpg

. . .or not.

[mooyingmantis]

We have to remember that there are at least a couple types of schools out there and each is governed by different principles.

Some are lineage-based like Gino's. Gino makes money, his instructor/partner gets a percentage and Master Lam gets his cut. Gino isn't just stuffing his pockets with hundred dollar bills. :) If you want to be part of a lineage, you literally pay for the privilege.
Want to be a part of Lee Kam Wing's lineage? There are costs involved. When he comes to the states to do a seminar, you will be expected to foot part of his travel and expenses, even if he isn't coming to your school.
Plus, you have no idea how much of a percentage these Masters get from their underlings. My jaw fell open when I heard what was expected from each school by one Master. It was more than I make a year at my secular job. I am not saying this is wrong. I am just reporting the facts.

Some are independent operators. What they make after expenses goes into their pockets. However, since they are independent, they lose out on benefits that are available to the lineage-based schools. Who wouldn't like to attend a seminar with a well-known master at a discounted price? Who wouldn't want a picture of a famous master legitimately hanging on their wall? Who wouldn't want group rates on insurance?

So, sometimes there is more to consider about price than meets the eye.

[Syn7]

the ideology IS economics

not for me...

[Syn7]

i am part of a great lineage... but we dont have that pyramid mafioso kick up the ladder type of model going on...

maybe the trick is to reduce overhead... like some schools are in these new huge buildings with more gear than they need and more space than they need... stuff like that... i dont think its unfair to make a student pay for all their own pads , gloves, etc etc... no need to spen 10 grand on some crazy weapon rack...


a mirror and enough space so the students dont bump into eachother... our school is small and the spot is cheap... we make do just fine... also chinese biz in the hood interested in keeping their culture alive help us out...


i cant walk 3 blocks with sifu to go get some eats without having to stop every ten steps so he can be polite to the people who say hi... they all know and love the guy... even if he was dirt poor, people would support and make due...

[mooyingmantis]

i am part of a great lineage... but we dont have that pyramid mafioso kick up the ladder type of model going on...

maybe the trick is to reduce overhead... like some schools are in these new huge buildings with more gear than they need and more space than they need... stuff like that... i dont think its unfair to make a student pay for all their own pads , gloves, etc etc... no need to spen 10 grand on some crazy weapon rack...


a mirror and enough space so the students dont bump into eachother... our school is small and the spot is cheap... we make do just fine... also chinese biz in the hood interested in keeping their culture alive help us out...


i cant walk 3 blocks with sifu to go get some eats without having to stop every ten steps so he can be polite to the people who say hi... they all know and love the guy... even if he was dirt poor, people would support and make due...

However, occidentals do not get the same respect or support from the occidental community. No one is helping them keep the doors open. And we are judged by totally different standards. If we are dirt poor, we stay dirt poor.

[Syn7]

However, occidentals do not get the same respect or support from the occidental community. No one is helping them keep the doors open. And we are judged by totally different standards. If we are dirt poor, we stay dirt poor.

sucks for you...

i like how you do it tho... garage style... downsized... quality over content... im also willing to bet that all the gear u use with ur students is ur own personal gear... am i right???

[crashhelmet]

How about instead of fees and exams, a system of rank where in order to advance the neophytes must kill the person holding the rank above them in ritualized open combat. So on and so forth until upon murdering the Master, they then become the Master, until they are themselves slaughtered by an advancing student. . .

http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/17/1733/EOE3D00Z/posters/brock-h-m-in-classical-mythology-aeneas-finds-the-golden-bough.jpg

. . .or not.

Isn't that how the Sith ranking structure is based?

[crashhelmet]

I don't mind paying testing fees. I understand the concept of "time is money." My issue with it comes down to when those testing fees are at arm and leg prices and there are as many as 40 or 50 people testing at one time. At $100 a pop, that's a hell of a great day. At $500 a pop, that's pure greed. Nothing more, nothing less.

[wenshu]

Isn't that how the Sith ranking structure is based?

Not exactly what I was referencing.

The system you mention is more like this:

The first three levels are pretty good, but then they add all this stuff that they tell you actually should have come before the original three levels. The added stuff is so bad that not only does it irrevocably ruin the entire system forever but also millions of childhoods.

aaaaaand back OT;

Ranks and testing are for kids; gives them a sense of accomplishment and goals to aspire to.

Otherwise they don't really belong in kung fu. Unless your pants keep falling down.


Reading some of these posts, the similarities of kung fu schools to pyramid scams is striking.

[mooyingmantis]

sucks for you...

i like how you do it tho... garage style... downsized... quality over content... im also willing to bet that all the gear u use with ur students is ur own personal gear... am i right???

Thank you!

Yep! And I am sure I will never get back the money it cost to remodel my two car garage into a nice training facility with traditional and modern equipment. It doesn't matter to me. I teach to increase/maintain MY skills.

I do it for the love of the art and that is enough for me. However, that doesn't mean that those who do it and expect to support their families on their teaching, do not do it for the love of the art as well.

[EarthDragon]

for the record I do not charge test fees...... I feel you have already paid for the knowledge through monthly class enrollment........ why would I charge you to show me what you have learned and already paid for.

[iunojupiter]

When I was regularly testing at my school, I liked the way my Sifu did it. Test fees were 50 dollars and most of the money went to pay for personalized certificates and the after test party. Sifu rarely if ever made a profit and usually would put some money into it out of the school funds if not too many people were up for tests.
Everyone who tested was invited to the party later that evening, usually held at the local high school or a hall of some sort. Pot luck food and pizza, music, kung fu, lion dance, etc....
Those were the good days. :D

~cheers~
Josh

[Iron_Eagle_76]

for the record I do not charge test fees...... I feel you have already paid for the knowledge through monthly class enrollment........ why would I charge you to show me what you have learned and already paid for.

This.

Also how my sifu taught class, and his sifu before him. Christ, am I a Jedi!!:eek:

"I am a Sifu who does not charge testing fees, like my father before me".:D

[Syn7]

for the record I do not charge test fees...... I feel you have already paid for the knowledge through monthly class enrollment........ why would I charge you to show me what you have learned and already paid for.

even if you have to come in on your day off or before or after class to do the testing??? or do you do it in class time and just let a senior take over while you grade???

[Syn7]

When I was regularly testing at my school, I liked the way my Sifu did it. Test fees were 50 dollars and most of the money went to pay for personalized certificates and the after test party. Sifu rarely if ever made a profit and usually would put some money into it out of the school funds if not too many people were up for tests.
Everyone who tested was invited to the party later that evening, usually held at the local high school or a hall of some sort. Pot luck food and pizza, music, kung fu, lion dance, etc....
Those were the good days. :D

~cheers~
Josh

thats awesome... i have no issue with covering costs for meterials... in testing or not... if my sifu said to me "i'll teach you dao and staff forms but you need to buy your own first" i wouldnt have any issue with that... first because i can take it home to practice but second, coz you respect gear more when its your own... and third, you are more likely to take it seriously if you went and bought the weapons out of your own pocket...


i cant practice swordplay at home coz i dont have one :(

i want one but i never see any i like... i dont want some sheet metal cheap crap... all i ever see is like the 50 - 150 dollar ones and they are always crap... im sure i can find one if i look hard enough, just never got around to it coz there are like 40 of em at the school...

[EarthDragon]

sny7

even if you have to come in on your day off or before or after class to do the testing??? or do you do it in class time and just let a senior take over while you grade???

yes even on my day off. I dont like to hold tests before during or after a class because if they fail I do not want them to be embarassed in front of other students and I am pri ck on test day and dont pass many of them on their first try.

I feel as though charging for them to show me what I have already taught them is charging them twice... We dont do the colored american sash thing in our school and the certificate is but a piece of paper and doesnt cost much and even if we did sashes they are $7.00 bought in bulk.

My payment is to see them work hard, retain the information I have shown them and making me porud they that have completed another level....... no amount of money can do that.

Some people like myself teach for other reasons than monetary gain

[Syn7]

if they fail the test then that means they were tested before they were ready... sup wit that??? or do you test every so often regardless of how they perform in class???

[A BIONIC LEG]

I guess in the end (coming from someone that has both paid quite a bit to test...and not); Paying for testing, not paing for testing, not even testing at all, it's all relitive. Personally what rank I hold now, (from litterally paying my dues with blood sweat and finances) is more important to me then when I only paid 6 bucks a class to study Kuk Sool Won out of a Military base gym.

Thats not to say that for one person that does not pay for instruction gains anything less that one that does. Everyone is diffrent and every bit of learning is important in it's own right.

We are truly blessed to live in a time where a conversation that has gone on for days is based on weather or not one should pay or charge to test a martial arts student for their knowledge. When in fact not just 70ish years ago a white person (let alone westener like myself) couldnt even dream of studding Kung Fu if it hadn't been for people like Ark Wong who taught just for the love of the art.

[mooyingmantis]

Since we are talking about "test fees", a subject germaine to the discussion is, "Why test at all?"

What are you actually testing? In old school TKD, learn a form, break some boards, and step sparring equals test. In Yoshikan Aikido it was a few specific techniques. In Hakko-ryu Jujutsu it was a few techniques plus variations. In Nu Hou Quan, there was no testing. At Shifu Biggie's school there were no ranks to begin with, the last I heard he now uses them.

I do ranks for kids because parents want them. Adults just get a nice plaque that gives them permission to teach what they learned when they are ready. I think the plaques cost me about $50 to have made, so that is what students pay. Though I think the price has probably risen significantly, since I last issued one over 10 years ago.

So, here are my questions:

Are your tests based on forms?

Are your tests based on sparring?

Are your tests based on specific techniques?

Do your tests combine all the above?

There are no incorrect answers here.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

In my system the test is based on everything they have learned up to that point. They will go through basics, stances, forms, sparring, throws-takedowns, submissions, and questions on their knowledge of the system. (Mostly terminology and such) Most tests for the lower ranks are 2-3 hours, Black Belt is usually spread out over two days.

I believe my Sifu said it best when he told us you are already the rank you are testing for, otherwise I would not be testing you. This is simply your rite of passage. Tests should be hard, with blood, sweat, and tears, but in the end, when that sash is tied around you, the accomplishment should outweigh whatever pain you endured.

My way of thinking about it is this, would you rather have a test where you do two or three forms and tip tap spar with someone for a half hour, or forge through the fire and come out bruised and battered, but proud and confident. This is what a test is, the piece of cloth around you is just semantics.

[ginosifu]

Testing is done after the student learns the required material for that level. Each level is progressively harder. Each level contains punches or fist techniques, kicks, self defense, fundamental drills (for that level), form drills, A Form, sparring or san shou drills, tumbling and breakfalls, shuai chiao or throwing drills and they must spar or fight according to their level. They also must memorize one of our maxums / mottos / theories.

Testing is not just to get $50 bucks and hand them a certificate / belt. It is a place to "TEST" if they can produce their techniques under pressure. Whether at a test or in a fight, you must be able to apply what you have learned during a stressful situation. Some people get the butterflies and have completely ****ed their test. THEY FAILED !

As they move up the ranks, it may take 3 to 4 years to get to "Black". This is just a industry standard. The systems I have learned take anywhere from 10 - 20 years to be able to completely learn and comprehend all the nuances of the system.

So now do we keep testing people for 20 years?

ginosifu

[curenado]

for the record I do not charge test fees...... I feel you have already paid for the knowledge through monthly class enrollment........ why would I charge you to show me what you have learned and already paid for.

Ditto - never heard of "test fees" until now. Makes me think some folks have so much ego and BS they actually believe it themselves.

"A school is a business and we are here to make money." Gross!

[TenTigers]

I give an informal evaluation first. We go over all their material, and if they have it wired tight, then we set up a test date. If not, then we work together until it is.
Nobody ever fails a test. A test is to inspire and motivate the student. Failing my own student is like teaching a child to walk, and then pulling the rug out from under him. Failing a student sometimes causes him to give up altogether. I want them walking back to their car thinking, "ALRIGHT!" not,"Jeez, I suk!" I already know what he can do. However, in many cases, they themselves aren't aware of how far they've come.
The evaluation is the test. The test is a promotion.
The student is pushed hard, but it is really a time for him to shine. "Show us what ya got, kid."
The test is also like a lesson. They are shown exactly where they need more work. For some reason, this hits home really well during a test, so it's an opportunity for growth.
I will say this; the only test they CAN fail is the Black Sash test, and they can fail by stopping, quitting on themselves, and not pushing through. We push them hard, keeping them hovering on the verge of exhaustion the entire time. Drills, padwork, pressure testing their self-defense, throwing, sparring, multiple opponent sparring. They can cry, they can puke, they can fall down, just so long as they get back up and don't quit. It is a test of mental strength.
The test culminates with board breaking-yep, something I picked up from my Tang Soo Do days. End it on a positive, powerful note.
Then lots of cheering, pats on the back, and a banquet.

[curenado]

<< I think the plaques cost me about $50 to have made, so that is what students pay.>>

There is nothing wrong with students covering the cost of such things and they often mean a lot to them.

Master Don must have shared the same type of philosophy, because if you asked, he would always look at you with that "kind" look. One day someone would say the equivalent of "try this on" and that meant you have been weighed, measured and found ready.

I don't do testing because:
1) It implies I have time for what I have already seen
2) Until people are "free" from the trap, they can be easily obsessed with testing and ranks which is not what they are there for and detracts from what I am trying to do
3) It unnecessarily troubles their minds both with vanity and self doubt - both are irritating to others.
4) It is not me that needs to have the confidence of them - it is them. I hope no matter what I say, they doubt it and seek to improve. I do not want to be their point of approval - I want them to be.

But our environment is at one end of the scale between "closed temple" and "USD Mcdojo" - people in urban environments and with larger classes have a whole different thing going on there. I do not say that our way is the way or would work for everyone in their particular environment.

If I were doing a urban McDojo with 600 students and maybe 4 I liked? Even a token test fee would be a HUGE increase on the monthly bottom line.

I am sensitive to that, because it is a reality for those who have urban overhead costs that we don't and because of the difference in our model - of course it's easy for me to have my position - I live in a nonprofit! Lol!
There are less people in this county than in a urban apartment complex!

[EarthDragon]

if they fail the test then that means they were tested before they were ready... sup wit that??? or do you test every so often regardless of how they perform in class???

why would you say that? have you never falied a test in school that you knew the material and were prepared to take it and still did not pass? of course you di we all have, so its not a matter of being ready.

I do not test every so often, I test when the students covers the level they are on and has pratcied on htier own time and they let me knwo when they think they are ready.

I have students test in 3 months I have had students test in a year on the same level.

I test for basic knowledge, anatomy, balance and grace, level requirements and history /lineage.

it is also cumlitive so they re do thier past levels with every tests as a refresher so the first test when they are beginners is about 30 mintues and the last test gold mantis/ 1st duan is about 6 hours

[Lucas]

i think its just different methods.

by ED's method he has the student inform him when they feel they are ready, and based on that he tests them. I'm sure if someone who was so not ready asked he would say 'no, you certainly are not ready' failing something you thought you might be ready for can be a great tool in personal development. you can learn from that the same way you can learn from losing a fight. you did your best, you worked your ass off, but you just didnt make the cut. sorry, always next time.

now if YOU tell a student "you are testing saturday" you should probably pass them because YOU are telling them they are ready. so they will be ready.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Some others have said this and my test as well as my Sifu's test was similiar. It is a hard, trying process. I am not going to fail someone for something stupid and trivial such as missing a movement in a form or doing anything wrong that can be easily corrected.

There is only one way to really fail a test, and that is to quit and not follow through. No matter what happens, if you give 100 percent effort and do not quit, the test is passed. Some may not agree with this, it is there opinion and that is fine.

But personally, I would rather have a student who makes a technique or stance mistake on a form and goes through the fire trials and pain and stands at the end and says I can and will do more, than a ridiculous twenty minute test that is stopped and the person is failed because of it. Who do you think will have more courage, heart, and fortitude in the end. That answer is simple.

[Lucas]

out of curiosity, does anyone include combat requirements in their tests? such as being able to 'win' specific matches that were set up with what ever methods you use for judging?

like if you get your ass handed to you by every lower rank than you and cant even break even with someone of the rank you are testing for, should that person pass?

personally, from the way i view martial arts, i say no. they dont pass if they cant apply their MARTIAL art, and fight at a level they should be at..

[Syn7]

why would you say that? have you never falied a test in school that you knew the material and were prepared to take it and still did not pass? of course you di we all have, so its not a matter of being ready.



never in my life have a failed a test i was prepared for... especially tests that were scheduled by a teacher that felt i was ready... not pickin on ya man, we're just talking right...

[Lucas]

do you guys think thats a western cultural thing? do you suppose every student in Korea or Japan passes all martial arts test, or do some fail? im willing to put money on the fact that not just a few fail MA tests in these differing cultures.

[EarthDragon]

lucas
by ED's method he has the student inform him when they feel they are ready, and based on that he tests them. I'm sure if someone who was so not ready asked he would say 'no, you certainly are not ready' failing something you thought you might be ready for can be a great tool in personal development. you can learn from that the same way you can learn from losing a fight. you did your best, you worked your ass off, but you just didnt make the cut. sorry, always next time.

now if YOU tell a student "you are testing saturday" you should probably pass them because YOU are telling them they are ready. so they will be ready.
exactly lucas

iron eagle

There is only one way to really fail a test, and that is to quit and not follow through. No matter what happens, if you give 100 percent effort and do not quit, the test is passed. Some may not agree with this, it is there opinion and that is fine.

I pass or fail on a point system. If you total of 2 points you fail, if say they make a full point mistake like the wrong techniques when I call it out its full point off but they can make 1/2 or 1/4 point mistakes and if its under 2 full points they pass. its not just all or nothing. but agian I am very strict in my teaching and testing, if there not ready they fail. Thi sis the only way to preseve the oringinal art passed onto me. So many schools give levels and belts away that it is not even close to the way it was taught say 100 years ago.

sny7

never in my life have a failed a test i was prepared for... especially tests that were scheduled by a teacher that felt i was ready... not pickin on ya man, we're just talking right...

LOL you are smarter then me then. I have failed tests in grade and high school, math and history especially we cant all be straight A students. So to say you have never failed a test in your life is pretty good in my book.

[Violent Designs]

When I was a kid, testing fees for my TKD school were incredibly cheap. We were mostly charged a nominal fee for the next belt and feeding the testing board lunch.

The Aikido school in Japan where I trained charged a bit more. But at every test you were guaranteed expert advice from at least 3 different master level instructors. There was also a pool of black belts that acted as ukes and randori opponents. Thus, some of the fees went to travel expenses of the testing board and as payment to the ukes.

Testing in China, for foreigners....hahaha, forget that. The amount of money one has to pay, not just for testing, but to all the other louts who want a handout, is incredible. There are also no real standards by which foreigners are judged.:(

there is such a thing as expert aikido advice?

[mooyingmantis]

there is such a thing as expert aikido advice?

Here is an easy way to get an answer to your question:
1. Go to a yoshinkan aikido class.
2. Challenge anyone Yondan or above.
3. Then let us know how that works out for you. When you are able to type again. :D

[Violent Designs]

Here is an easy way to get an answer to your question:
1. Go to a yoshinkan aikido class.
2. Challenge anyone Yondan or above.
3. Then let us know how that works out for you. When you are able to type again. :D

I know about Yoshinkan Aikido. And about all of their hardcore street training stuff.

There was a huge thread about it on Bullshido and if I remember the conclusion was that there was really no solid footage of how it was so much more hardcore or superior than regular Aikido.

So on your point, sure maybe they will kick my ass. But I'd put my money on a Yondan in Judo or BJJ over a Yondan in Yoshinkan Aikido anyday.

Let's not even bring up styles like Enshin or Daido Juku.

[mickey]

Greetings,

The problem with commercial schools is that, like the mail, the expenses never stop coming. I see that there are those here who are uncomfortable about charging money for things. That stand will not stop the expenses. The key is in having balance:

1- Instead of charging a high test fee, raise the tuition ten to fifteen dollars a month for incoming students. Here you can eliminate the testing fee and still make money or

2- Raise the tuition fee ten to fifteen dollars a month for everyone while dropping the test fee to twenty five dollars. You still make money to cover the expenses.

3- Have special semi annual or quarterly trainings that will enhance the learning experience of your students for seventy five dollars for six hours of instruction/insight, etc.

4- In addition to the aforementioned, you should really buy your certificates in bulk. You should also have a bulk supply of sashes. Buying these things in advance helps protect against rising inflationary costs. You should leave it to the students to frame or perma plaque their own stuff.

These suggestions do not come with pangs of guilt. They are good for the traditionalist and the businessman.

If you are looking to minimize your expenses, you have to have greater control over your teaching environment. Ownership of property becomes important: something for you to consider.

Good Luck to You All,

mickey

[ginosifu]

Testing is not just to get $50 bucks and hand them a certificate / belt. It is a place to "TEST" if they can produce their techniques under pressure. Whether at a test or in a fight, you must be able to apply what you have learned during a stressful situation. Some people get the butterflies and have completely ****ed their test. THEY FAILED !

One of my students just tested for his Black Sash (been training for 4 years with me and three years of previous kenpo training). If he comes to his Black Sash test and flops.... is it my fault that I let him test? Normally he would do the techniques / forms fine during class, but somehow he got nervous and just totally forgot enough / screwed up enough stuff to fail his test. Is this my fault? Should I have seen this coming?

We grade students on a scale of 5 - 10. With 5 Sucking and failing and 10 is a perfect score. You need 70% overall to pass. Everything (each technique or form or sparring) is given a score by a panel of 3 Sifu's. There is a 2 day test where Friday is all fighting and self defense. Saturday is is drills and forms and a 200 question exam.

Should we pass the student who forgot his stuff or totally turned the wrong way on enough stuff to make a score that was less than 70%?

On a side note he passed his figting portion of the exams but failed most of his forms and drills stuff.

Your thoughts

ginosifu

[EarthDragon]

great post mickey, you appealed to both sides of the coin and to my feelings on this matter.

[mickey]

Hi ginosifu,

If the student has performance anxiety, then it would be good for you to have a one on one with him. Get him to identify his stressors. If you are able to address those stressors with him it would be great. You may also ask him what a testing exam would be like if he was the teacher (you may get some amazing feedback). Then ask if he would be able to test under those circumstances. Of course, the whys and why nots will show up. Ultimately, you are getting him to create a testing program he would not be nervous about. The show of caring will carry over into his life in more ways than one.


mickey

[pazman]

there is such a thing as expert aikido advice?

That's rich that you want to start that argument, considering this is kung fu board.:rolleyes:

[bawang]

b tunks student fought in thailand last month, i think thats a good way to test your student.

everyone can use extra money. but you dont have to let money troubles take over you, take control of you. the important thing is to not let your students change you, you change them.

[David Jamieson]

b tunks student fought in thailand last month, i think thats a good way to test your student.

everyone can use extra money. but you dont have to let money troubles take over you, take control of you. the important thing is to not let your students change you, you change them.

I think the interplay of directional changes minor or major in character of a person is directly related to individual relationships and how they are conducted between specifically two individuals.

A teacher can be changed by a student's character and behaviour and vice versa. I understand that in context you are talking about money and it's effect on how business works etc, but beyond all that and at the highest point of any transaction is the human relationship.

If you are training your students to be fighters, then getting them fights is always good for them. If you are really wanting to test your abilities in different environments then it is best to go where there is ubiquity. However, many do not have such luxuries and cannot find those opportunities. So, we create them. :)

[A BIONIC LEG]

out of curiosity, does anyone include combat requirements in their tests? such as being able to 'win' specific matches that were set up with what ever methods you use for judging?

like if you get your ass handed to you by every lower rank than you and cant even break even with someone of the rank you are testing for, should that person pass?

personally, from the way i view martial arts, i say no. they dont pass if they cant apply their MARTIAL art, and fight at a level they should be at..

In a Teoul Moon test, once you test for your 4th gup (starting at 9th gup working to 1st) one on one sparing becomes part of the test. From that point it's based on techniques used, fluidity and a culmination of what has been taught up to that point. Once you test for your 1st tan (black sash) you begin sparing against 2 opponets at the same time.

You are graded not nessecarily on if you "win or not" but how well do you apply what you have been taught in a "real world" application.

[A BIONIC LEG]

do you guys think thats a western cultural thing? do you suppose every student in Korea or Japan passes all martial arts test, or do some fail? im willing to put money on the fact that not just a few fail MA tests in these differing cultures.

I can speak from first hand experience comming from being stationed in Korea for a year and studding under a Korean GM. As far as his tests go up to your 1st gup. He will tell you when he thinks your ready to test, he will also show you the next part of the form or defense technique when your ready for that.

However when it comes to testing for your 1st tan black sash if your miss even the slightest thing e.g. foot is not placed properly, horse stance isn't low enough, your ridgid as a cinder block... he'll fail you and not think twice. However he will give you 2 more oportunities as part of that same test.

To go even further than that, a close friend that I was studding with at the time (and sitll am off and on) failed all three. Sabunim was quite gracious enough and alowed a fourth bassed on how much time he had spent in the studio and the amount of time he had spent with the lower ranking students. I hope that answers your question.

[Lucas]

thanks for responses to my inquiries.

[bawang]

real men dont test belts. you are all women and japanese lovers.

[ngokfei]

huh?

:confused:

[Lucas]

real men dont test belts. you are all women and japanese lovers.

thats because real men make their own belts woven from the pubic hair of their fallen enemies.

[bawang]

they also make good ornamental beards

[IronFist]

$500 in 1975 was like $1,500 in 2008 (according to the internet).

That's a hefty belt fee.

If you fail the test do you have to pay it again next time you try?

The last school I trained at, I paid $10 to the instructor every time I showed up.

[David Jamieson]

If you fail the test do you have to pay it again next time you try?



You'll pay until you get it right.

Remember though, you'll only stay in an obviously abusive relationship for so long, and then, something's gotta give right?

Not all test fee takers are necessarily abusive for requiring fees. It's really up to you to detect intention and decide what's going on in the world around you when it comes to you actually involving yourself in relationships with others. :)

[ginosifu]

If you fail the test do you have to pay it again next time you try?

$200 for a retest fee when when redoing your Black Sash test.

ginosifu

[bawang]

for that price in 1970 you couldve bought a filipino mail order bride

[Hebrew Hammer]

for that price in 1970 you couldve bought a filipino mail order bride

Your ex wife says 'herro' by the way.

[ngokfei]

In 1970 China you got a Wife for FREE when you bought slippers LOL:D

[Northwind]

OMG I love how this forum always goes all over the place. That pic, ngokfei, is AWESOME!!!
I still test but don't charge extra for testing. Had a kid last week just pass his first real form test - tan tui :)

[bawang]

huh
:confused::confused::confused:

[Syn7]

Hard Luck - 1921

Buster Keaton....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Luck_(1921_film)

[Violent Designs]

huh
:confused::confused::confused:

umad ?