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IcedSamurai
07-21-2001, 06:37 AM
Does anyone here take Hwa Rang Do other than me? :P
or does anyone even know what it is?

--------
Come, visit me and my floating island of serenity.. the Kingdom of the Winds..

Stranger
07-21-2001, 03:56 PM
I own three tapes with defrocked HRD blackbelt Randy Wanner. He had abandoned the high kicks prior to the making of the series, so I don't think it really reflects all of HRD. The art had a close relationship with the US Army-SF in the past, and I think that Wanner's interpretation reflects this concern of the the MODERN soldier.

Good luck. It is a well rounded program that will likely lay a solid foundation to explore many arts if you choose. A lot of people will deride HRD's lineage or the internal politics of the organization, but in the end of the day- it is good technique.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

rogue
07-22-2001, 05:21 AM
It looks like a good art though I've heard conflicting stories about the people in it, who taught who what and it's origins (now there's something new for a Korean art). Still I'd love to see some classes or take some lessons to try it out.

Also, I found this on a Hwa Rang Do® page, which made me go "huh"?
"In order to better maintain this Hwa Rang Do® identity, it has been internationally trademarked. This copyright registration encompasses all techniques (italics mine), the syllabus, uniforms, its name, and all other aspects of our art, and is protected by international and federal laws."

All techniques? :eek:

Stranger,
"defrocked HRD blackbelt Randy Wanner"? Care to elaborate?



Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

[This message was edited by rogue on 07-22-01 at 08:50 PM.]

rogue
07-22-2001, 05:55 AM
Also when I hear this kind of thing about Hwa Rang Do it really makes me wonder,
"The most comprehensive, well-rounded martial art in existence. It is the mother art of all other systems, it is the graduate/masters program." :eek:

The more I hear about it the more I just don't know anymore.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

IcedSamurai
07-22-2001, 09:35 PM
There is a good site about Hwa Rang Do, it's near where I live and I am training HRD. Go to: http://www.hwarangdoeastcoast.com my grandmaster is on the front :D

--------
Come, visit me and my floating island of serenity.. the Kingdom of the Winds..

Stranger
07-23-2001, 02:15 AM
Randy Wanner is the blonde haird BG in Echanis' stickfighting book. He is the man who trained Echanis (aside from his VERY brief time with Lee). Echanis caused a lot of friction whenhe came/left the HRD scene, and a lot of the top American BB in HRD split from Lee. www.bladeforums.com (http://www.bladeforums.com) is the place to go to get the American BB's side of the story. Bob Duggan, first American HRD BB before the Lee revised the history and founder of ESI bodyguard school, and a few of the pre-Echanis crew have showed up to tell their story.

Bottom line is that Bob Duggan and Randy Wanner were prominately featured in many articles with Lee as his top students, now he doesn't acknowledge them.(the same fate later befell DeAlba)

Lee's own articles on his website have him learning all of HRD by the age of twelve (and not all of that time was he training every day).

If you ever looked at the HRD syllabus, it is difficult to believe that a twelve year old had mastered sentry neutralization, poison lore, accupuncture, etc. all in 8yrs of trainin while so young in addition to the martial art techniques which are quite numerous. He admits he trained Hapkido for a long time, becoming one of the more respected BB back in the day.

Duggan, whoo wrote the historical intro for Lee and Echanis' books, said that Lee helped him make it up to give legitimacy to the techniques. Check out bladeforums, check out the articles on the HRD site www.hwarangdo.com (http://www.hwarangdo.com) (mindful of the dates of training and aware of the situation on the Korean Penninsula at that time), and draw your own conclusions.

I don't know what to think about all of that stuff, but their curriculum is well rounded covering all ranges and looks effective in the right hands.

Bladeforums will also shed some light on how much HRD really made it into the Special Forces training of H2H, Echanis' training, and Echanis' service in VietNam.

Word search "echanis" and you'll get some really long threads spread over a few forums.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

rogue
07-23-2001, 05:04 AM
I have a TRS tape of Wanner and Bob Taylor on gun disarms that is really great.

One thing I heard was that Wanner and Echanis brought a lot of the combat techniques to HRD. The one thing I've heard quite a few people who knew him say was that Echanis was a badass long before HRD.

RoosterTalon,
what's your take on this?
Has HRD changed? I've noticed Tae Soo Do being the entry level to HRD, is this what you're learning or can you just go to HRD?


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

Waidan
07-24-2001, 01:18 AM
GM Lee's studio was located just a few minutes from me (in Lake Forest Ca) for several years. Thus a lot of the MA folks in our area have had contact with or training in HRD.

I took classes with Sally Dewer (dunno spelling on last name, but that's it phonetically) for about 6 months in 1990, but opted out after Sally left us with a joke of an assistant instructor during an extended absence.

I thought the art was interesting, but the high/arial kicks are heavily stressed. That may be fine for some folks, but I found it to be unrealistic in the context of a real fight.

Yeah, the art's history is very questionable, but as rogue mentioned that's pretty typical for KMA. All the same, I wouldn't have a problem enrolling my kid there...it's certainly a cut above the TKD taught locally.

IcedSamurai
07-28-2001, 07:08 AM
I don't know about the changing of Hwa Rang Do, but I still train it.

--------
Come, visit me and my floating island of serenity.. the Kingdom of the Winds..

rogue
07-29-2001, 05:03 AM
Rooster,
I'd like to check out thise HRD tapes panther has do you know if they're any good?


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

http://rongos.com/funny****/Image15.jpg

Stranger
08-07-2001, 04:00 PM
Over at www.e-budo.com (http://www.e-budo.com) there are some current discussions about HRD, Echanis, Hapkido and its aiki connections, etc. A couple of threads are currently growing on the "ninja forum" (there was a link on a thread on the main board)

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

rogue
08-07-2001, 10:25 PM
Thanks Stranger


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

http://rongos.com/funny****/Image15.jpg

NorthernMantis
08-11-2001, 04:19 PM
Hey check out this Hwa Rang Do web site.The intro is really cool.I was impressed

http://www.hwarangdo.net/56/flash.html

"Always be ready"

[This message was edited by NorthernMantis on 08-12-01 at 07:31 AM.]

rogue
08-12-2001, 10:45 PM
The Original Korean Martial Art
Created by one mans passion
Supreme Grand Master
Dr. Joo Bang Lee

Can anyone spot the problem with the above statements?

The site has some fun stuff to look at.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

apoweyn
08-14-2001, 03:36 PM
Rogue,

I thought precisely the same thing. How does the "original" Korean art get created by Dr. Lee?


Stuart B.

rogue
08-14-2001, 04:48 PM
I starting to believe that something is fishy in HRD-land, which disappoints me. I've always thought it was a cool art, but the more I examine their(HRD) own web sites the more red flags I see. Too much hype, too much homage to the Bang family, and a fantastic history that doesn't seem to add up. Not to mention a basket load of defrocked black belts who from what I can tell know their stuff.

Maybe we're seeing a good art go bad.

Rooster Talon, if you're still around can you shed some light on this? :confused:


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

IcedSamurai
08-18-2001, 06:09 AM
I don't know about the "original" Korean art. They might be stating that it's more unique than Tae Kwon Do. It seems like a good art for me. It depends on opinions of others. I am studying HRD and I am going to look for Arnis schools here in NJ! Help me? ;_;

--------
Within Light, there is Darkness. Within Darkness, there is Light. Within Fear there is Strength.

rogue
08-19-2001, 05:18 AM
You might want to post about looking for a NJ Arnis school on the main forum.

As far as HRD goes, if you say it's still good then I'll go with that. I'll chalk the rest up to a overactive marketing department. :)


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

apoweyn
08-19-2001, 04:25 PM
RoosterTalon,

I don't know how close you are to Jersey City, but Arnulfo Cuesta teaches there. He's part of the Doce Pares arnis style. You may want to check him out. Even if you aren't close to Jersey City, he may put you on the right track. I think there are other teachers in that area.


Stuart B.

Stranger
08-27-2001, 05:37 AM
There is another Hwarang related thread over at Bladeforums Practical and Tactical Forum. There is an interesting article link that you might have seen.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

Silumkid
08-27-2001, 08:07 PM
There sure do seem to be a lot of "the most comprehensive, original arts in the world" out there.

Anyhow, I have read a couple books about Hwarang-do and it seems pretty cool. They have some good legends too! :) I especially liked the one about the 16 year old prince that went into battle himself and kicked a guy so hard he immediately dies, prince is captured, sent home due to his youth, and returns right away to battle!

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

rogue
08-28-2001, 04:13 AM
Thanks Stranger, I'll have to catch up with that one next week. Can you post the URL for the thread here?

Thanks.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

Stranger
08-28-2001, 04:54 AM
Another TRS Hwarang do inspired series (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165834)

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

kennysmith
08-30-2001, 09:08 PM
Hi all,

I study HRD at the World Headquarters in Downey, CA, where Dr. Joo Bang Lee is the head teacher. I wanted to post to talk about what I've learned personally about the history of HRD.

Stranger mentioned that Joo Bang Lee only trained until he was 12. The timeline that we are taught is that Joo Bang Lee, and his older brother Joo Sang Lee, started training with Suahm Dosa (also known as Suahm Sunsa) when they were 5 & 6 respectively. They trained with Suahm Dosa for 18 years (from 1942-1960), initially in North Korea, but due to communist influx they moved to South Korea. In 1960, Joo Bang Lee founded Hwa Rang Do. Joo Bang and Joo Sang Lee also studied Hapkido extensively during this time.

It is important to note that the martial art that Joo Bang Lee learned was _not_ Hwa Rang Do. This is something he has personally explained in class. What he learned was Um Yang Kwon (Soft Hard Fist), which is the art handed down from the ancient Hwa Rang warriors. Hwa Rang Do is _based_ on what he learned, but is not _exactly_ what he learned. My personal feelings on it, are that he most likely updated his teachings with current ideas of the time and mixed in things he had learned from Hapkido and Aikido. I agree though, the statements about HRD being the original Korean martial art are confusing and exaggerated.

I've studied over a period of 2 years, but with gaps due to hard work schedules. I have seen minor changes, but only to the Ssang Jyel Bong form.

I think I responded to most of your questions and whatnot, I hope it was helpful! I enjoy studying HRD quite a bit, if you have any other questions, please feel free to ask! :)

Kenny

Stranger
08-30-2001, 09:54 PM
These clips are from Joo Bang Lee's interview in BB magazine and is featured on his website.


"Su-ahm Dosa accepted the two of us as students....at the time of our acceptance in 1942, I was 4..."


"Family and Su-ahm Dosa relocated to Seoul in 1948"

"My brother and I trained daily with him unitl our family relocated further South in 1950."

The family re-located to Taegu which is 150 miles away. Now we are supposed to envision a twelve year old travelling 150 miles each way up and down the Korea pennisula IN THE HEIGHT OF THE KOREAN WAR!
Well maybe he had a lot of free time? No, he was studying hapkido from 1950.
Maybe he had time after that? No, he taught hapkido upon being certified.

So the majority of his training was between the ages of 4-12. After that, he was studying other arts and very far away from the master with whom he admits he lost contact with for a period. He also admits that he was only practicing hapkido at this time (choosing not to keep up on his older training out of loyalty to his new master). According to the interview he went to find his original master and get permission to teach his art in 1960 because Lee didn't like the politics of the hapkido communtiy.

There are a lot of Hwarang-do techniques to learn that quickly and at that age.

Could it have happened? I guess.

Lee's teacher has passed, nobody but him and his brother were students, and the home where his master lived was consumed by fire.

Regardless, it is a great art and he can kick butt.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

MonkeySlap Too
08-30-2001, 10:53 PM
This is typical of the Korean arts. A lot of inflated stories, egos and a cult of personality.

Too bad. I love the fighting spirit the Koreans have, but the behavior of a good chunk of the Korean teachers is abominable.

I remember reading an interview with a TKD man in Korea who was also a historian. Upon looking into the TKD history he said what he found was Lies, Lies and MORE lies.

Of course, this is not exclusive to Koreans. I've seen Chinese and Americans and Indonesians do this too.

So much for MA building character, eh?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

rogue
09-02-2001, 06:11 PM
Just got back from vacation, so a belated thanks Stranger. I thought this was interestingBob Duggan article. (http://www.hwarang.org/Warning.html)

It also helps explain the Tae Soo Do® situation, to open more school using TKD people.

Sad, everyone involved in the early years of the art speak highly of it and the Bangs martial abilities, but all say about the same thing of the massive ego driving it.

Monkeyslap Too, very true about KMA. Being a subject people for so long had blinded many to all the excellent work they have done, regardless of where their arts roots may be.

PS Stranger, I have the Hwarangsul tape they're talking about, not bad, picked up a few new ideas that work with my TKD well.


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman