The Back Curl - The Concave chest

[Yoshiyahu]

Does your Lineage also have the curl your back and concave the chest.

Does anyone Know about the Curl. The Curl is a way your suppose to curl your chest in like its concave. An convex your back. It is suppose to allow you absorb blows to body to lessen the impact. The curl also gives you like an inch of width. It can also add power to your punches if you use it correctly. There are two ways you use your curl to increase power.

1.Going from straight body posistion to curl upon impact of your fist to his face.(Don't forget to Breathe).

2.Going from curl to straight body posistion upon impact of your fist to his face.(Use the Breath).


Please share what you are taught concerning the Curl in Wing Chun

[Yoshiyahu]

http://amazing-space.stsci.edu/resources/explorations/groundup/lesson/glossary/glossary_terms/graphics/igt5_concaveconvex.gif

Here is an image of concave and convex

http://www.chwingchun.com.au/yip.jpg

http://www.rontrent.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/bruce-lee-yip-man-b.jpg

http://www.quijanosmartialarts.com/site/components/com_joomgallery/img_originals/ving_tsun_3/ving_tsun_20100131_1342118414.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0TY_C_2QMDA/S-BpjhqSLRI/AAAAAAAAA84/CVeIKf74AS4/s1600/bruce_lee_ip_man.jpg

http://www.lawingchun.com/images/Academy_Archival_Photos/Yip_Man-Bruce_Lee-ChiSao.jpg

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm198/trauma512ma/bruce-lee-yip-man-2.jpg


Jun Fan and Ip Man both use the curl as well?

Were they wrong?

[bennyvt]

bruce was, yip was just old. Any time you curl your chest you are losing you postural stability. The shoulders should be in a retacted state to use proper muscle recruitment. You are using some of your punching muscles just to keep in a curled position.
This is normally caused by too much forward movement and not enough back. Meaning your chest etc is stronger then your back meaning your shoulder curl forward which cause neck and back problems.
Most people do this as they feel they can get into the centre easier. Better to be off centre slightly then to comprimise your posture.
Also means when pulled your body turns staight away instaed of have some leyway with the shoulder so you can let it go i bit before the body is turned, (sort of like the drag on a fighing rod.

[anerlich]

IMO the use of the concave back is far more extansive in other Kung Fu styles, most notably Dragon Prawn boxing and some mantis.

Practitioners feel that it makes them a smaller target, protects the centreline and vital points on the torso better and allows them a reach advantage. Some Western boxers advocate a hunched position for similar defensive reasons, though hardly to the same extent, and not because they can allegedly hit harder from there.

It's not a feature of the TWC I've studied. Punching power comes from driving from the floor via the legs and hips and linking the body through proper structure. IMO flexing the upper spine forward detracts from that ability. Adding a rounding of the back IMO will add negligible force to a punch and may in fact take power away because of other compromises that have to be made to accommodate it. IMO this would not be a position that promotes spinal health.

I would dispute that Yip Man is employing the structure you describe in the photos you attached. He looks to be standing pretty straight to me.

[trubblman]

I have seen some branches of Wing Chun use the unfolded waist. The only rationale I have heard is that it brings more force into the legs. That way, you have more power in the arms. Check out Lu Baijun.

[Phil Redmond]

It's not good from a TCM and structural point of view.

[trubblman]

As to TCM ( I am assuming that means traditional chinese martial arts) Yang Cheng Fu says in the Tai Chi classics "to pluck up the back and sink the chest"

[Hardwork108]

Does your Lineage also have the curl your back and concave the chest.

Does anyone Know about the Curl. The Curl is a way your suppose to curl your chest in like its concave. An convex your back. It is suppose to allow you absorb blows to body to lessen the impact. The curl also gives you like an inch of width. It can also add power to your punches if you use it correctly. There are two ways you use your curl to increase power.

1.Going from straight body posistion to curl upon impact of your fist to his face.(Don't forget to Breathe).

2.Going from curl to straight body posistion upon impact of your fist to his face.(Use the Breath).


Please share what you are taught concerning the Curl in Wing Chun

Simply put, a "natural" curve develops when you practice your Wing Chun correctly. This curve does not stop your back/spine from being straight - a fundamental TCMA principle.

Just to emphasis, this curve is not a forced curve or hunch back curve, but rather, it is developed through natural WC postures that involve the elbow positions and structures. A similar curve can also be seen in Chow Gar Mantis practitioners.

[Hardwork108]

.
It's not a feature of the TWC I've studied. Punching power comes from driving from the floor via the legs and hips and linking the body through proper structure. IMO flexing the upper spine forward detracts from that ability.

I don't believe that it is about flexing the spine. My understanding is that it is a natural curve developed through correct WC practice. Also, I was not aware of its power applications, as regards WC.

However, when it comes to the lineage of Chow Gar Mantis that I studied, then the curved back will play a part in power issuance, but then I know from past discussions here on the topic, that this is not a well known mechanism, so we will have to leave that one where it stands. Suffice to say that in that particular case a curved back will have more significance in the power generation than in Wing Chun, unless that is, we talk about a WC methodology that has, for whatever reason adopted that particular practice.


Adding a rounding of the back IMO will add negligible force to a punch and may in fact take power away because of other compromises that have to be made to accommodate it. IMO this would not be a position that promotes spinal health.
.[/QUOTE]

[imperialtaichi]

The concave chest is an illusion. The issue is to "open" your back, the same way you would trying to push a car. But on a standing, centre-lined elbow down position, it looks like you are curling your chest.

[LoneTiger108]

Does your Lineage also have the curl your back and concave the chest.

Sinking the chest and opening the back, rounding the shoulders, is quite common, I thought, in many Southern Chinese arts. But exaggerating the 'look' is not recommended IMHO. As my Sifu used to say 'we aint practising prawn kung fu!'

However, Wing Chun for me is a Yum Yeurng system/style and contains both extremes. Used at the correct time, as with most things, they both have their positives and if you've looked into heigung practises you can not ignore either way.

If you look at the pictures of Ip Man above he has a concave chest and convex horse, making a suble 'S' shape. Until someone can tell me exactly what he is in this posture for I will continue to use whatever method I'm comfortable with...

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1078210]The concave chest is an illusion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Folks who primarily depend on pictures often have illusions!!

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

Marciano:
http://sportsmedia.ign.com/sports/image/article/968/968268/fight-night-round-4-heavyweights-that-missed-the-cut-20090331011930690.jpg

http://www.boxeo.ws/files/images/marciano_rocky_torsocompleto.jpg

Louis:
http://www.pastreunited.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/joe_louis.jpg

Tyson
http://www.canadastarboxing.com/images/fighters/Mike-Tyson-02-0503b.JPG

http://static.boxrec.com/wiki/5/5d/Tyson_WBC.jpg

Archie Moore:
http://static.sandiego.com/articlefiles/83fcd432-0299-4dc4-9773-9b895aa4f2dc/archie-moore2.jpg

The moment you bring down your chin and protect it with your shoulder, you concave the chest and "round" the back.

[SavvySavage]

I think that this is a good tactic to use while in a striking venue or to avoid getting hit/scored on but terrible for training and health. I don't recommend this posture for wrestling as it can disconnect your arms from your core. Healthwise it puts all of the force, force you throw out and incoming force from the opponent, into the lumbar vertebra which cN cause injury to the area.

So I would say do conditioning, single person drills, forms with proper upright posture and do sparring and fighting with a slight concave but not too much. You don't want to end up stuck in that posture when you're old. This is kind of like practicing kicks high to keep a basic flexibility but aiming low in a fight.

I see lots of young people with this hunched over posture just from sheer laziness.

[chusauli]

Its poor posture and/or age that creeps in - producing that poor posture.

Some lineages or martial arts systems actually use that.

I wrote about this extensively over the years.

[anerlich]

The concave chest is an illusion. The issue is to "open" your back, the same way you would trying to push a car. But on a standing, centre-lined elbow down position, it looks like you are curling your chest.


Eloquently put.


I don't recommend this posture for wrestling as it can disconnect your arms from your core.

THe more usual recommendation in my experience is to hunch your shoulders and "turtle your neck" for wrestling. Mightn't be great structurally, but then neither is getting your cervical spine bent and twisted by people snapping you down and pushing and pulling your head around, that isn't good for power genertion either.

Then again, a lot of fun activities aren't exactly 100% beneficial for your health.


As my Sifu used to say 'we aint practising prawn kung fu!'

There are real prawn styles of KF. My first instructor practiced some of their forms. But yes, that's not what we do.

[LoneTiger108]

There are real prawn styles of KF. My first instructor practiced some of their forms. But yes, that's not what we do.

Seriously??! :eek:

I would put a bet on you learning this from some conman trying to take a ride on the cultural kung fu rollercoaster of the sixties! ;)

[anerlich]

Seriously??!

Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhYjFSD3P5w



I would put a bet on you learning this from some conman trying to take a ride on the cultural kung fu rollercoaster of the sixties!

You lose! You must be quite a contortionist to at the same time have your foot in your mouth up to mid-thigh and your head up your a$$.

[sanjuro_ronin]

ON a side note, I'd love to hit like a Mantis Shrimp !

[GlennR]

[QUOTE=anerlich;1078526]Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhYjFSD3P5w



Thanks for that Andrew.... im missing Erle already

[YouKnowWho]

It's not good from a TCM and structural point of view.

Agree! If you are young, the concave chest is not good for your body development. If you are old, you don't need to train it and you will get your concave chest for free.

The nothern CMA longfist system training requires you to be able to hold a pencil by using your back muscle. That's the complete opposite direction of training.

The concave chest may make some sense in the southern Chinese striking art (so you can guard your door tightly) but won't make any sense in the nothern Chinese striking art or throwing art. The reason is simple:

A concave chest

- defines your defensive attitude (if you always think about getting hit, you will get hit).
- restricts your body extension so you won't have the maximum reach (the maximum reach is your arm and chest make a perfect straight line).
- has no value in the throwing art training (concave chest make your body rotation very ackward).

In TCMA, there is no right or wrong but trade off. When we look at the PRO, we should also look at the CON. Understanding the strength and weakness will be the correct attitude for TCMA training.

[KPM]

I think the "hunchback" is a case of very poor biomechanics! In WCK it is often the result of rocking the weight back on the heels, pushing the pelvis forward, and then hunching the back to compensate. Not only is this bad for your health, but it isn't a very good position from which to apply force or maintain balance. I think back to Wong Shun Leung's classic instructional video "Science of In-Fighting." Wong's primary Chi Sau partner in that video had one of the worst "hunched" postures that I've seen. But Wong himself had a nice straight posture. One would assume that his Chi Sao partner was one of his advanced students....otherwise why would he be on the video? But why there was such a difference between the two men, when that "hunched" posture seemed to be so obviously incorrect is a question I've never seen addressed! :confused:

[LoneTiger108]

Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhYjFSD3P5w

You lose! You must be quite a contortionist to at the same time have your foot in your mouth up to mid-thigh and your head up your a$$.

Sorry dude! But if that clip is considered 'serious' Martial Art I guess I lose. But seriously? I have no sound here at work and just looking at this guy rocking back and forth in his clown pants doesn't do anything for me.

In fact these two look exactly like the sixties throwbacks I was telling you about.

Hopefully you haven't wasted your time trying to learn any of that madness? Took 6 mins for him to show a slap to the back of the head dude? WFT has that to do with Prawn Kung Fu??

[CFT]

ON a side note, I'd love to hit like a Mantis Shrimp !That rang a bell for me. Quite awesome!

http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/biomechanics/082071/knockout-punch

High speed footage of mantis shrimp strike (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAu2f87QAQU)

Strongest Punch in the World (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgvsQ6oNZyo)

[GlennR]

Sorry dude! But if that clip is considered 'serious' Martial Art I guess I lose. But seriously? I have no sound here at work and just looking at this guy rocking back and forth in his clown pants doesn't do anything for me.

In fact these two look exactly like the sixties throwbacks I was telling you about.

Hopefully you haven't wasted your time trying to learn any of that madness? Took 6 mins for him to show a slap to the back of the head dude? WFT has that to do with Prawn Kung Fu??

Judging a guy by his pants (though they are pretty tragic) without listening to him or researching him wouldnt be considered a "serious" observation.

Do a little research before blessing us with your wisdom

[LoneTiger108]

Do a little research before blessing us with your wisdom

Well, maybe when I get the time I will look further into Taichi and using Shrimp power technologies, but for now all I have is his Youtube link :eek:

Wasn't judging his ability by his pants by the way, I was judging that on his movements in the clip ;)

[T.D.O]

That rang a bell for me. Quite awesome!

http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/biomechanics/082071/knockout-punch

High speed footage of mantis shrimp strike (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAu2f87QAQU)

Strongest Punch in the World (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgvsQ6oNZyo)



Kewl.... :D

Cheers

[chusauli]

Sorry dude! But if that clip is considered 'serious' Martial Art I guess I lose. But seriously? I have no sound here at work and just looking at this guy rocking back and forth in his clown pants doesn't do anything for me.

In fact these two look exactly like the sixties throwbacks I was telling you about.

Hopefully you haven't wasted your time trying to learn any of that madness? Took 6 mins for him to show a slap to the back of the head dude? WFT has that to do with Prawn Kung Fu??

Spencer,

The fist that the late Erle Montaigue is demonstrating is called "Long Xia Quan/Lung Har Kuen/Dragon Shrimp Fist". In other words "prawn kung fu", which is relevant to your conversation with Andrew.

Erle was a bit of a showman, but he studied some real martial arts, despite his pants. His recent passing will be mourned by many. He was a unique fellow.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well said Robert.

[sanjuro_ronin]

As for the concave thing, boxers do it all the time, though they don't focus on the chest at all, we tuck the chin, bring over the shoulders to protect the chin.
Basically the same thing though not as exagerrated.
Exagerrated is bad.

[anerlich]

I would put a bet on you learning this from some conman trying to take a ride on the cultural kung fu rollercoaster of the sixties!

IMO there was no such roller coaster in the 1960s. 70's more like it. You weren't there, so how would you know?

Others have dealt with your other ignorant,disrespectful and patronising remarks, for which they have my thanks.

I didn't study this style of boxing. However, my first KF instructor, David Crook, was familiar with it and discussed and demonstrated some of its concepts with me while he was teaching me other things. He was also friendly with Erle Montaigue and they corresponded and occasionally joked at each other's expense in articles in the martial arts press at the time.

Erle was a prolific author and probably wrote more and in greater detail on Dim Mak and internal TCMA than anyone else before him. He even spent a bit of time as a pro wrestler in his younger days.

He courted controversy and got into feuds with a number of other prominent Australian and international martial arts identities (some of whom relative newbies like Spencer might not have heard , though they include George Dillman and the Gracies), but undoubtedly the MA scene world wide is better for his involvement and poorer for his passing.

http://www.taijiworld.com
http://taichirenegade.com

background on Erle for anyone who doesn't think they know everything already.

[EternalSpring]

My opinion is similar to those who said that the concave chest is something that is more natural and not something forced. From my own training I've definitely been told about the concave chest by Sifu but at the same time told that forcing such things would only lead to being tense and overexerting oneself and that's never really a good thing.

On a side note, someone did bring up Tai Chi and I also noticed the similarity when training Tai Chi. Especially after beginning the Yang Style in 37 postures I had bought one of Chen Man Ching's books and even he mentioned that in regards to tai chi, the chest is inwards but the spine is still straight, and that overexerting or forcing these things past what is natural would bring about more bad results than good.

Now this may not apply to every school and lineage of Ving Tsun, but for me I was also taught/shown that there is a type of energy that can be used offensively with the whole concave chest. Yea, it may be best for taking in energy from an opponent, but at the same time Ving Tsun is full of techniques in the form where the energy is being pulled back with one hand/arm while being shot forwards with the other. Imho, sometimes it doesn't have to be about maximizing forward energy, perhaps maintaining the same forward energy while maximizing pulling energy can also increase the effectiveness of a strike. But this is all just from what I know now, and I'm no Sifu, so of course I could learn more and think differently as time goes on, so if my opinion does seem insane, please be gentle lol.

[IRONMONK]

To be fair to Lone Tiger that video clip was poor

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer,

The fist that the late Erle Montaigue is demonstrating is called "Long Xia Quan/Lung Har Kuen/Dragon Shrimp Fist". In other words "prawn kung fu", which is relevant to your conversation with Andrew.

Erle was a bit of a showman, but he studied some real martial arts, and despite his pants, I'm sure he would have kicked your tiny disrespectful arse in a few seconds. His recent passing will be mourned by many. He was a unique fellow.

Really? I had no idea he was so well known and even if I did I don't see how you of all people can throw the 'disrespectful' towel at anyone! That was definitely not my intention. Just having fun with his trouser choice on that clip. No big deal IMHO as I personally had never heard of the guy...

[LoneTiger108]

IMO there was no such roller coaster in the 1960s. 70's more like it. You weren't there, so how would you know?

True. I know nothing of these times as I don't know anyone who lived through that either... I know nothing about World War II either but respect the opinion of my grandfathers.


Others have dealt with your other ignorant,disrespectful and patronising remarks, for which they have my thanks.

Tell me how having fun is being ignorant, disrespectfu or patronising? As I said to Robert, I had never heard of the guy. My fault and I apologise if anyone was really offended by my joke!


I didn't study this style of boxing. However... la di da!

You see? If I was to take your knee jerk approach I would say to you "so shut up then! what do you know about it if you haven't done it yourself??"" :D


http://www.taijiworld.com
http://taichirenegade.com

background on Erle for anyone who doesn't think they know everything already.

Thanks for the links. I will look into Erles history to see if there is anything there at all that will help me with my Wing Chun.

[LoneTiger108]

To be fair to Lone Tiger that video clip was poor

Thank you for you honesty.

I go away for a weekend and look what happens??! Misunderstandings and bullying by people who really should know better IMHHHO

[anerlich]

If I was to take your knee jerk approach

LOL at knee-jerk. I provide you with some info, you react stupidly, I watch you progressively make a bigger idiot of yourself over a number of posts, others tell you you are being a moron, but you keep digging that hole deeper towards the centre of the nitwitsphere ... yeah, right.


Misunderstandings and bullying by people who really should know better

You suggested I'd been taken in by conmen in the sixties. You're in no position to lecture anyone on "misunderstandings", manufacture offense at being denigrated, or set any standards for forum behaviour.

[Grumblegeezer]

Sorry dude! But if that clip is considered 'serious' Martial Art I guess I lose. But seriously? I have no sound here at work and just looking at this guy rocking back and forth in his clown pants doesn't do anything for me.

In fact these two look exactly like the sixties throwbacks I was telling you about.

Hopefully you haven't wasted your time trying to learn any of that madness? Took 6 mins for him to show a slap to the back of the head dude? WFT has that to do with Prawn Kung Fu??

I'm new on this forum and I really don't want to be disrespectful to anybody. Honest. But after I watched that clip and then read this post by Lone Tiger I laughed so hard I almost shot coffee out my nose. Those were exactly my thoughts as well! I would love to see a kung-fu school that used those plaid "clown pants" and sandals as the official uniform. Can you imagine? C'mon, anerlich you gotta see the light side of that. Jeez!

[anerlich]

I'm new on this forum and I really don't want to be disrespectful to anybody.

Good to know. Stay here a bit longer, your attitude may change.


Can you imagine? C'mon, anerlich you gotta see the light side of that. Jeez!

I can see the light (sic) side of it. I used to have pants like that in the 80's, though I wouldn't have let myself be captured on video in 'em.

There are "official uniforms" I've seen that are way worse than that.

That image isn't as funny to me as the one I have in my head of LT 108 tripping over his own tongue and landing with his foot in his mouth, and every subsequent time he opens his mouth, the foot going in a little deeper.

YMMV, I guess.

[couch]

Hey guys,

Thanks so much for standing in for 'the banned.' I really missed all the name-calling and cheap shots so I'm really happy to have it all back.

It's just like my children. "He hit me first, so I hit him back." Funny how I can teach my kids that the cycle has to stop somewhere, but the WC folk? Fuggedaboutit.

[Grumblegeezer]

Funny how I can teach my kids that the cycle has to stop somewhere, but the WC folk? Fuggedaboutit.

Your own kids listen to you? What is your secret? If you can break that "cycle" you are beyond even "moderator" material. Heck, have you considered negotiating peace in the Middle East?!? --Geezer, speaking as a clueless dad! LOL

[couch]

Your own kids listen to you? What is your secret? If you can break that "cycle" you are beyond even "moderator" material. Heck, have you considered negotiating peace in the Middle East?!? --Geezer, speaking as a clueless dad! LOL

***Caveat: my children are still young and impressionable by their father. I await my demise in 10 years or so...

[bennyvt]

I always think about it its just more hard training they will get when they are old enough, ;)

[trubblman]

A Kuen Kuit concerning the topic: Food for thought

- Pull in the chest, push out the upper back, and bring in the tail bone.

[Hendrik]

This is actually a simple issue.

Concave chest and slight tilt tail bone is just a signature of Loose/relax spine + waist.
if the spine and waist is in a good handling; concave chest ... will show without forcing it to be this or that.


Take a look at the Ip Man and Bruce picture.
Clearly Bruce body broken into three pieces the hip and bottom, the shoulder and above, and mid section. That is the indication of he cant use his body as unity but brute force. His breathing is not low but stuck at chest. Which is contrary to Ip man.




Failing to see the above details and just mimic posture will not get one a proper structure, one's breathing cant even get down to lower abs with ease, not to mention fajing, huajing....etc.

Qi will not sink to Dan dien that is forsure and thus deeper dynamics cant surface.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Actually, it is called, Spoon Chested. It is easier to see in pathetically skinny persons. It is the results of occupying the center line with your elbows. Try shoving the chest out and doing that. And breathing with the lower abdomen is much easier and more effecient that way.