The risk of the TCMA hammer fist

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY1Hiuz8gDU&feature=related

At 1.38, when you use right "hammer fist" on your opponent's left arm, your opponent can borrow your force and sping his left arm into a hook punch at your head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOD_MuvzcwY&NR=1

IMO, this will never work in combat speed. The reason is the hammer fist has to travel much longer path than a jab. If your hammer fist can hit on your opponent's arm when he applies a straight punch, you must be much faster than him. If you are much faster than your opponent then anything will work.

There is a good reason that "hammer fist" is not commonly used in the western boxing. It's just too slow to be combat realistic. What's your opinion on the "hammer fist"?

[Violent Designs]

Hmmm it's a terrible opening move in my opinion, but as something of a finisher it has the potential to be very strong, I think.

At the same time a normal hook is faster and just as strong most of the time I believe.

So this technique is not the most optimal.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You have to absorb the incomming force and begin to redirect first, then crack them with the hammer fist as part of the set up for the next move.

The hammer fist is not stopping the jab. The other hand is. The hammer fist is neutralizing the next move before it can be started.

In the Yuan Gung Quan - application, the attackers punch is stopped at the :05 second mark by a quick raising of the elbow.

He's going in slow motion so we can see.

By the :07 mark, the same arm is now both clearing the first attack, and covering for the attackers second blow.

At the :12 second mark, the first arm (using the elbow) is now trapping the attackers original punch (assuming he caught it), and is now pulling it to his body as he uses his other forearm to jack the attacker's shoulder. The resulting shock has the potential to damage the elbow. If not, it will take a beat from the attacker so the defender can position for his counter attack.

:14 seconds , the defender's left arm comes in, covers against the likely third attack from the attacker, and sets the position needed for the take down.

:34 defender takes down the attacker using internal force and foot positioning to up root them.

:36 holds gay theatrical Kung Fu posture for the camera.

[bawang]

those techniques in youtube video doesnt work because its standard slow jab, hold it out, i make a bridge with your forearm bullsh1t. not because of hammerfist

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

It would work either way. infact, at speed it would work better because the attacker would try to fade back as you entered, and thus help you with the take down as you'd have him tripping over your feet on top of everything else.

[bawang]

if u try to make a brdige with the gua chui you get taken down in 2 seconds

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You don't need to make the bridge. Just lift the elbow to shield from the first attack and charge in full bore. As soon as your legs get under them, they are toast. The rest is just gravy.

[YouKnowWho]

By the :07 mark,
At the :07 mark, the guy used right hammer fist as he described in Chinese. I don't think he would be fast enough to do that against a fast jab.

One of my friends has a lot of confidence in his hammer fist. Oneday I challenged his hammer fist. He liked to use heel kick and hammer fist combo. He delievered a heel kick, I blocked it. Before he could drop his hammer fist on my head, my front toe push kick already hit on his chest. We tested this many times and everytime, my kicks could always be faster than his hammer fist. He is more than 10 years younger than me. He should be able to move faster than me. The reason is my kick did not have to traveled as long path as his hammer fist did.

This is a good example that without proper testing, you may think some moves should work but in reality, it just doesn't.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This is similar footwork, but going faster. The idea is to use your entry to take thier root and balance. The hand work just covers against thier attack and makes them fall over once you already won.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoERMXVhLlc&feature=related

it's the foot work that wins it.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

At the :07 mark, the guy used right hammer fist as he described in Chinese. I don't think he would be fast enough to do that against a fast jab.

One of my friends has a lot of confidence in his hammer fist. Oneday I challenged his hammer fist. He liked to use heel kick and hammer fist combo. He delievered a heel kick, I blocked it. Before he could drop his hammer fist on my head, my front toe push kick already hit on his chest. We tested this many times and everytime, my kicks could always be faster than his hammer fist. He is more than 10 years younger than me. He should be able to move faster than me. The reason is my kick did not have to traveled as long path as his hammer fist did.

This is a good example that without proper testing, you may think some moves should work but in reality, it just doesn't.

Look again, the jab was already neutralized by the rising elbow by then, at the :05 mark. Go slow, one frame at a time if need be.

The Hammer fist seen from :07-:10 is to clear the second attack if it is coming. It's not really a hammer fist. he's just covering that line for anything potentially comming in, like a cross.

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoERMXVhLlc&feature=related

Ther are a lot of good moves in this clip, but there is something missing in that clip. It's like watching a movie without "ending". Does anybody feel the same way as I do?

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoERMXVhLlc&feature=related

Ther are a lot of good moves in this clip, but there is something missing in that clip. It's like watching a movie without "ending". Does anybody feel the same way as I do?

I think he lets his opponent escape too much. Seems like he's content with just uprooting, but has no follow through. He's not doing anything to incapacitate his attacker or finish him off.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This is a very old pre Sung Dynasty style known as the Six Stance Fist among other things. If I am not mistaken, the Wensengquan is based on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kJ8unUIlgM

[YouKnowWho]

I think he lets his opponent escape too much. Seems like he's content with just uprooting, but has no follow through. He's not doing anything to incapacitate his attacker or finish him off.

Agree 100% there. I prefer this kind of ending instead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTR5KU3xwls

or something like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbJfX9Jinik

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

This is the stuff I have been playing with lately.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv-_MC1oRDg&feature=related

[bawang]

the asshammer technique is very deadly

[RenDaHai]

At 1.38, when you use right "hammer fist" on your opponent's left arm, your opponent can borrow your force and sping his left arm into a hook punch at your head.


Not if the hammerer sinks in with the elbow, or if it is done with high power, or isolates his elbow... At combat speed the switch your suggesting is indeed possible but much easier said than done......every move is counterable....thats the art.



IMO, this will never work in combat speed. The reason is the hammer fist has to travel much longer path than a jab. If your hammer fist can hit on your opponent's arm when he applies a straight punch, you must be much faster than him. If you are much faster than your opponent then anything will work.

Applied against a Jab for conveniance of demonstration only..... there are many situations where your hands form contact without it being that the opponant is jabbing, not to mention prediction. Its the throw i wouldn't use, the entry is great and very powerful. Power and speed, you can't always have both.



There is a good reason that "hammer fist" is not commonly used in the western boxing. It's just too slow to be combat realistic. What's your opinion on the "hammer fist"?

Za Chui in chinese kung fu (Pound/smash/break---hammer/pound/strike) the hammer fist.

THe videos aren't great demonstrations. The hammer fist is however an essential technique.

1. Typically there is no distinction in the form between elbow za chui and fist za chui and the elbow version is a great technique.

2. SLower?? Every joint in the human body is circular, your saying combining them into an awkward approximation of a straight line is faster than arcing straight through? It may appear faster in after it has been set in motion but it is not in reaction and preparation time.

Picture an example of your hand is held high and his face is ducked slightly, low. In this situation your hand is above its target... in order to punch straight you would have to withdraw the hand, prepare it then punch out, forming a parabolic motion. If you simply arc down it will be much faster.

Remember with Za CHui you don't have to 'chop' you can still hit with your knuckles just on a circular path, not as powerful as a straight but much faster (from certain starting positions).

ITs true that the fastest way between two points is a straight line, but there are many positions in which a small arc will form a much straighter line then a straight punch. In terms of body mechanics there can be no truely straight punch as every joint has circular motion. Straights can be done from a much smaller range of prepared hand positions. In combat you don't always manage to keep your hands within these zones, once outside, they must be returned before the punch can be made, its this bit that is slow.

Western boxing keeps the hands within a smaller zone so is best to use straights, but western boxing only includes punching. When you add the kicks the throws and all the other moves the hands can no longer remain in such a small zone and the hammer becomes more necessary. Its not because its slow, its because it works from different positions.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY1Hiuz8gDU&feature=related



they are used to set up and not really to strike. so they have to be "slow".

1. lead hand or yin shou is forward upward in the center

2. then hammer fist is to attract attention, it is right behind yin shou, there is almost no gap.

your follow up with 3 (axe, zhan to carotid artery/vein) and 4 (drawing bow to shoot the tiger wan gong she hu) almost instantly.

zhao jian guo is showing slowly 1-2-3-4

if you do all of them very fast in an instant ---

well at least that is the idea to drill 4 moves in one combo.

:)

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOD_MuvzcwY&NR=1



no matter how you set up

the finish move is called twin boys carry the mountain or er lang dan shan 二郎担山

it is a common move across many and many styles.

if you do it with only hand/side, it is called iron fan or tie shan----

:)

[hskwarrior]

that looks very similar to how we Kwa Sau Biu Jong in hung sing choy lee fut

[YouKnowWho]

Its the throw i wouldn't use,

I have problem with that too. It just doesn't make sense when your opponent moves in toward you and you also move in toward him. It may be better to spin out of your opponent's attacking path instead.


they are used to set up and not really to strike. so they have to be "slow".

But the back fist (circle in front of your body) can achieve the "set up" with less risk. The hammer fist (circle behind your body) has value after proper set up or when your opponent catches your kicking leg.

Do your realize that "hammer fist" is not one of the XingYi 5 elements (The Pi Chuan is similiar to back fist)?

[RenDaHai]

no matter how you set up

the finish move is called twin boys carry the mountain or er lang dan shan 二郎担山

it is a common move across many and many styles.

if you do it with only hand/side, it is called iron fan or tie shan----

:)

Cool,

But Erlang is not twin boys but the name of a Chinese God 二郎, He fights SunWuKong in journey to the west. He is usually pictured holding a pagoda in the palm of his hand, so it stands to reason he could lift a mountain.

Er lang Dan Shan is a variant of the 'Dan Bian' technique and can also be used to strike the opponant, I think that would be more useful than the throw in the video above.


I use hammers to strike all the time, up and down, its important to remember that its not just the hand that is a striking surface here.




@YouKnow

The Pi QUan in xing yi is too well defined by individual sects but in reality is a more mysterious technique. If you were to train the older XinYi you would find the hammer and pi quan are the same principle and merge into one another. xinG yi is too obsessed with form, hence the name (form and Mind) as opposed to the (heart-mind) of xinyi (a reference to the highest principle of gong fu).

[Mr. C]

Maybe a western approach, could add to your outlook.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14d5sK0yl00

Those hammers are quite effective and fast, hard to stop that type of intent behind the cycling movement.

[GeneChing]

I like the hammer fist as it appears a lot in BSL. The hammer fist becomes much more powerful when your hammering fist isn't empty. I often carry a tactical pen and would probably deploy dagger methods (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-zq001.html), which are essentially hammer fist techniques, if ever called upon to use it.

[uki]

i love the hammer fist... works best when utilized in a horizontal trajectory.

[hskwarrior]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtSQwF-c7ak

[Lucas]

i think the best use you get out of the hammer fist is on the ground/grappling. when you want to pound someones head over and over without having to hurt your hand at all, by, well....hammering their head. dependant on positioning and control. thats just my opinion on the best use of hammerfist, but it can be a very powerful strike, and unorthodox so can be suprising if used at the right time.

i do agree, that in most cases, there is a more effecient strike when standing, but then circumstances change...

[Lucas]

it hurts but you dont run the risk of joint contusion(sp) or fracture/break nearly as much. i think thats why you see so man guys do it. also when your are on the ground fighting for control, you may have more opportunity to pivot from your elbow and throw a few hammers, if you cant get a couple inches for a standard strike straight/hook.

again it all depends on the person and what they train. some people never train hammer strikes as a valid stand up technique, but then those that do can apply them.

[Violent Designs]

Just food for thought.

"Jab" will beat most circular/non-linear strikes simply by way of being linear and rather light in comparison.

But "overhand," "sao chui sweeping fist," "hook" punches can also be used as COUNTER against the jab by way of body/head movement simultaneously.

Slip-the-jab, overhand right/hook to the face. KO

[Lucas]

just for fun why not follow it into a clinch and throw some knees :D .... what ko??!?! ;)

[bawang]

hammerfist is good when someone turtles up or he gets knocked out already. most hammerfist in longfist is those 2 apps
also good for wrestling clinch

use common sense

[goju]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfLlGHV1dG4

this hammer fist worked pretty well

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfLlGHV1dG4

this hammer fist worked pretty well

That look like a back fist (circle in front of your body) to me. To me the definition of a hammer fist is you swing your arm behind your body, over your head, and then drop straight down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfc-lv-GMvM

[SPJ]

za fist can also be done with mid or small circle.

but you are right, it is usually done with a big swing around the shoulder joint.

in pi gua, da pi da gua

your pi with open palm or pinkie side can be changed to closed fist to hammer

---

:)

[YouKnowWho]

I'll consider the 3rd drill (4 strikes combo) is more like hammer fist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hI6OJpVzi8

[YouKnowWho]

Not if the hammerer sinks in with the elbow, or if it is done with high power, or isolates his elbow... At combat speed the switch your suggesting is indeed possible but much easier said than done......every move is counterable....thats the art.
It may be easier than you think. I had developed this move by accident. Long time ago someone used a hard block (similiar to hammer fist on the arm) on my punch, I borrowed his force and changed my punch into a hook punch and knocked him down. After that I loved to borrow my opponent's force to get my "initial acceslation" for my favor hook punch. My opponent's hammer fist not only give me the "initial acceslation" that I need for my hook punch, his hammer fist also exposes his head for me. This is the "risk" that I'm talking about for the hammer fist.

[SPJ]

I'll consider the 3rd drill (4 strikes combo) is more like hammer fist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hI6OJpVzi8

in long fist, you may use the wheel of the fist or quan lun 拳 轮 to hammer

in tong bei, we use the kunckles or quan bei 拳 背 to hit.

so the first one is flat surface or meaty part of the fist

the last one is pointed surface or bony part of the fist

in tong bei. we also protrude the middle finger's 2nd knuckle to strike or za.

:)

[David Jamieson]

It's (the hammerfist) unorthodox and therein lies it's virtually only advantage over any other strike.

If you pick 6 attacks and 6 defenses that you know you can successfully use over and over again with good chances all the time, then that should be your personal catalog of material to use in unarmed conflict.

It is good to know more though, because not everyone favours the same 12 things.

Still we learn many things and after a long time it gets whittled down to what we succeed most with. But constant revisitation may reval new successes as well.

Using a knife will always give you a higher advantage over an unarmed combatant when in a conflict.

[Frost]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY1Hiuz8gDU&feature=related

At 1.38, when you use right "hammer fist" on your opponent's left arm, your opponent can borrow your force and sping his left arm into a hook punch at your head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOD_MuvzcwY&NR=1

IMO, this will never work in combat speed. The reason is the hammer fist has to travel much longer path than a jab. If your hammer fist can hit on your opponent's arm when he applies a straight punch, you must be much faster than him. If you are much faster than your opponent then anything will work.

There is a good reason that "hammer fist" is not commonly used in the western boxing. It's just too slow to be combat realistic. What's your opinion on the "hammer fist"?

or they can just hit you with a right cross, why these types of demos are show with both hands down is beyond me, even if you do have the timing and speed to hammer down on an incoming jab (which i highly doubt) no one will throw a jab in isolation they will follow it up with a right cross and in that video the cross would have put the guy down hard

As already pointed out hammer fists can be a good idea on the ground

[Northwind]

I, like Gene, love the hammer fist. However, its usefulness depends on scenario and how its done. Although it can be done like shown in those video clips, I don't like that at all and do not teach my students in BSL to do the big way back circle, but rather leading with the elbow. It's a great movement, but again you can't just use it anywhere nor anytime - that's where crossing hands comes in - being able to learn of times where certain things would be more appropriate.

[-N-]

It may be easier than you think. I had developed this move by accident. Long time ago someone used a hard block (similiar to hammer fist on the arm) on my punch, I borrowed his force and changed my punch into a hook punch and knocked him down.

i thought Larry, Curly, and Moe invented that in the 1930's.

[Taixuquan99]

I think the main issue I see with the usage is it requires you to deflect or block a strike on the opposite side of your body from the outside of that strike, to a degree. That's why the jab beats it.

Now, if it is a jab coming from your outside, all you have to do is raise your elbow and step in, it makes more sense in that context.

Or, as Bawang said, when they turtle up or after you roofie them.

[SPJ]

you may use several za from both of your hands in turn.

the first one will invite a defense

you then turn around your hand to grab

if no time, forget about grabbing the opponent's defending forearm

just deliver another za one after another

keep going

3 to 6 in a row

and keep going

till you land one.

since your fist coming out from behind your first/front hand

both of your hands stay in your centerline

you are covering your chest/abdomen all the time.

at least that is the theory and practice from tong bei.

your first za was hurried by the second

your second za was hurried by the third

sometimes they are called strung together cannons

lian zhu pao: linked pearl (pearl string) cannons.

---

:)

[TenTigers]

Hakka Kuen uses a similar technique to what Mr.C showed. We call it gao choy, and it is a short, dropping hammerfist that comes from your guard, down at a diagonal angle, (elbow drops first) combined with whole body weight dropping,deep penetration, and a quick snap-back to guard-short power. Hard to describe.
The strike is fast, and has great destructive force. The striking surface is the hammerfist, or forearm-which is like hitting with an axe handle.
Targets can be the side of head,jaw, neck, collarbone. Lung Ying guys like to hit the corner of the jaw by the ear to dislocate the jaw.
This can come off the cover from a hook.

[YouKnowWho]

Now, if it is a jab coming from your outside, all you have to do is raise your elbow and step in,

That's the "掛(Gua) - comb hair" principle. The best move against jab in TCMA, even MT guys use that a lot.

By the way, I have met a Taixuquan instructor in a Vancouver park.

[Frost]

Hakka Kuen uses a similar technique to what Mr.C showed. We call it gao choy, and it is a short, dropping hammerfist that comes from your guard, down at a diagonal angle, (elbow drops first) combined with whole body weight dropping,deep penetration, and a quick snap-back to guard-short power. Hard to describe.
The strike is fast, and has great destructive force. The striking surface is the hammerfist, or forearm-which is like hitting with an axe handle.
Targets can be the side of head,jaw, neck, collarbone. Lung Ying guys like to hit the corner of the jaw by the ear to dislocate the jaw.
This can come off the cover from a hook.

rodney king teaches a similar strike out of the CM structure, first time i saw it i was reminded of m lung ying training, there really isnt nothing new under the sun

[Taixuquan99]

That's the "掛(Gua) - comb hair" principle. The best move against jab in TCMA, even MT guys use that a lot.

Exactly!


By the way, I have met a Taixuquan instructor in a Vancouver park.

I spoke with a guy online, a few years back, who I think was a teacher from that group. Nice guy.

[HumbleWCGuy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY1Hiuz8gDU&feature=related

At 1.38, when you use right "hammer fist" on your opponent's left arm, your opponent can borrow your force and sping his left arm into a hook punch at your head.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOD_MuvzcwY&NR=1

IMO, this will never work in combat speed. The reason is the hammer fist has to travel much longer path than a jab. If your hammer fist can hit on your opponent's arm when he applies a straight punch, you must be much faster than him. If you are much faster than your opponent then anything will work.

There is a good reason that "hammer fist" is not commonly used in the western boxing. It's just too slow to be combat realistic. What's your opinion on the "hammer fist"?

In terms of that outside to inside hammer fist. I think that it has application if you shorten it up a lot. In bare knuckles fighting hitting peoples elbows can be a concern when you go to the body. You can use a significantly shortened hammer fist to attack the ribs. It will certainly frog your partners arm as well. My instructor rarely used a body hook unless you put gloves on him.

[Yum Cha]

@ Ten & Frost.
I was going to mention the Hakka short armed version of the hammer fist...

Its a lot different, coming from the arms forward position, its as bit more like that combatives video earlier in the thread, but with more waist, drop and forward movement.

Comparing it to an axe is a fair comment, to my mind, side of head and neck attacks, or a clearing move. Not really an opening move, but a follow up.

[jdhowland]

you may use several za from both of your hands in turn.

the first one will invite a defense

you then turn around your hand to grab

if no time, forget about grabbing the opponent's defending forearm

just deliver another za one after another

keep going

3 to 6 in a row

and keep going

till you land one.

since your fist coming out from behind your first/front hand

both of your hands stay in your centerline

you are covering your chest/abdomen all the time.

at least that is the theory and practice from tong bei.

your first za was hurried by the second

your second za was hurried by the third

sometimes they are called strung together cannons

lian zhu pao: linked pearl (pearl string) cannons.

---

:)

My white crane teacher called this "drummer hand." I think it's a literary reference to Zhang Fei's drums.

[SPJ]

yes in shao lin fist

it is called the monk is beating the drum

or he shang ji gu.

however, fist forms are different from tong bei.

but the ideas are the same.

:)

[Siu Lum Fighter]

The hammerfist is always a bad opener. It's hard to nail someone when you're going over the top with it all the time. You want to go over the top then I'll come in from the bottom and slip a jab or cross with the same arm I used to guard against it. I've always felt that it's one of the only strikes the standard upper block is good for. That's even a little too complicated though. If your opponent is keeping their hands up, I don't see how it's really effective unless you've already blasted them with something else and they aren't keeping themselves covered anymore.

I don't see why the guy in gold couldn't block the right hammerfist at around 1:55:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY1Hiuz8gDU&feature=related

Even if you were lightening fast this would be hard to pull off without getting clocked with a left at around 0:38 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOD_MuvzcwY&NR=1

[Syn7]

ive seen some variations of the hammer fist in some boxing styles. used sort of like a short jab when the elbow is already up and horizontal... know what i mean?

[PalmStriker]

ive seen some variations of the hammer fist in some boxing styles. used sort of like a short jab when the elbow is already up and horizontal... know what i mean? Exactly. Hammerfist is the fist formation. Ninjutsu uses a hammerfist to stop the heart. Pretty direct path. I would use it to break the jaw (side strike).