Choy Li Fut "goon sao"?

[TopCrusader]

Hello!

I am wanting to know what the Choy Li Fut "goon choy" is? I could find no mention of it. Perhaps it is mis-spelling of a different Chinese name?

Thanks

EDIT: I put "goon sao" in title, but i meant "goon choy" :(

[hskwarrior]

hey, me too! :eek:

[CLFNole]

Never heard of it. Did you mean "gong sau"? If so it is not a technique or punch just loosely translates to "talk with your hands".

[TopCrusader]

I'm sorry I had a brain **** when i typed in the title of this thread. I didn't mean "goon sao" i meant "goon choy"

Any idea what goon choy is?!

[hskwarrior]

where do you get GOON Choy from? did someone say that to you?

[CLFNole]

Still never heard of it. Only 'goon' I know is Alice the Goon from my youth in the Popeye cartoons.

[hskwarrior]

i wonder if he means Fa Kuen Sau?

[TopCrusader]

HA! Alice the goon always scared me as a child ;)

Well, "goon choy" was printed in the following sentence:

"Two techniques that Bruce took from the choy Li Fut were Chop Choy and Goon Choy." -- by Jesse Glover (1st student of BL)

I have a feeling its a misprint?! maybe he meant Gwa Choy?

[hskwarrior]

it was probably sow choy cause kwa choy isn't as powerful.

[extrajoseph]

The proper Cantonese pronunciation is Gung Ceoi:

Gung - http://chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/?pageID=CharDict/View:bushou&query=653B

Ceoi - http://chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/?pageID=CharDict/View:bushou&query=6425

We call it Gung Sum Ceoi - attacking to the heart strike. It can also be using two palms (then it is called gung sau) as well as two fists, they cross over each other while we charge into our opponent at the heart level controlling their forearm with our scissors hands at the same time. Alternatively one hand can block up while the other attack with charp ceoi below.

[CLFNole]

If it was done with palms wouldn't it be "juerng"? Also when you cross the arms doesn't it become "gum chien" (golden scissors)? Excuse the chinese to english writing. :p

[extrajoseph]

Hi CLFNole,

My understanding is the Gung Sau attack is not done with the palms, it is done with forearms in a cross pushing against the third gate (from the elbow to the shoulder) of your opponent so he cannot counter with his elbow, hence it is called a "sau" and not a "jeunrg" and this is done horizontally with the palms facing down.

Gum Jian or Golden-Scissors is usually done blocking upward with the palms facing back at yourself, so you can follow through with a pull down with one hand and a Ping Charp (horizontal Charp) with the other. If you rotate the Gum Jian outward and upward as you block then it becomes a Gung Kiew or an Attacking Bridge.

CLF terminology is very precise but unfortunately no one pays attention to these little details any more.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

CLF terminology is very precise but unfortunately no one pays attention to these little details any more.

The fate of traditional gung fu is changing. it needs to anyways. terminology is less important than application for a combat focused society. The importance of forms are increasingly dying off replaced by realistic combat training.

[extrajoseph]

All modern combat training manuals have names for different techniques, just like in the CLF fighting manuals, otherwise they would get all mixed up. It has nothing to do with doing forms, we are talking about names for different combinations and that would not die off, because that is as basic as one can get. Without knowing the different names for different things, our techniques will only get more sloppy as time goes by and it showed in our discussions, both in this thread and in the "Video: Past elders of Choy Lee Fut" thread and they need to be clarified.

[hskwarrior]

Not all people in america speak chinese, therefore, simple explanations will be invented to describe the moves when there is a language barrier. I don't believe the CHINESE names of the moves matter that much to a fighter who just wants to learn them. to some it may. to others they just want to be shown how it works.

the traditional aspects are indeed dying out, but there will be those who will record the right things for the generations to come that are interested in them. but just cause someone doesn't have the terminology as you think it should be doesn't negate the idea of skill in it.

[extrajoseph]

We are not talking about skill, nor forms here, we are talking about correctness of names here. How would you like it when someone calling you Crank instead of Frank? "Hey Cranky, how are you going today?" You know, it just doesn't sound too respectful. :eek:

If the Chinese bothered to learn English when they come to America, why shouldn't the Americans bother to learn some Chinese if they want to do Kung Fu?

[hskwarrior]

We are not talking about skill, nor forms here, we are talking about correctness of names here. How would you like it when someone calling you Crank instead of Frank? "Hey Cranky, how are you going today?" You know, it just doesn't sound too respectful.

If the Chinese bothered to learn English when they come to America, why shouldn't the Americans bother to learn some Chinese if they want to do Kung Fu?

my girls mom calls me FREDDY yet im still the same old frank. call me francis, franko, frank frank...i'm still me. i'm not worried about names.

[hskwarrior]

If the Chinese bothered to learn English when they come to America, why shouldn't the Americans bother to learn some Chinese if they want to do Kung Fu?

i can't answer for them. for myself, even my chinese friends speak more english than chinese. i know many people from many ethnic backgrounds where the language barrier stopped with their parents.

[Eric Olson]

If the Chinese bothered to learn English when they come to America, why shouldn't the Americans bother to learn some Chinese if they want to do Kung Fu?

Some people are just lazy :eek:

[extrajoseph]

my girls mom calls me FREDDY yet im still the same old frank. call me francis, franko, frank frank...i'm still me. i'm not worried about names.

Hi What-Was-Your-Name-Again,

Fair enough, you don't worry too much about names, now I can understand why the in-precise names for movements of what Sifu Li Iu-Ling was doing in the other thread and missed out 50% of what was going on.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59771

But strangely, you seem to spend a lot of time trying to figure out what that Green Grass guy was called, why bother? He only existed in your imagination. :eek::D

[CLFNole]

And in the end it always goes back to him...:eek:

Way to go XJ

Like Pachino said in the awful Godfather III, "just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in".

[hskwarrior]

But strangely, you seem to spend a lot of time trying to figure out what that Green Grass guy was called, why bother? He only existed in your imagination.

dannnnng that sounds a little bitter betty there freddy! anytime you wanna know something about the Green Grass Monk let me know. I got poems, flags, cartoon depictions, and so much more. you should go watch my latest video, i talk about how the Hung Sing Hoi Jong combined with the Heaven Earth and Man bow correlates to the Hung character "洪".

[extrajoseph]

And in the end it always goes back to him...:eek:

Way to go XJ

Like Pachino said in the awful Godfather III, "just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in".

Memories, memories, that is what makes us human.:)

Besides, is it a contradiction? Freddy says he is not worried about names, yet he insisted on certain names as being correct and others are wrong, it makes me wonder, is he telling the truth or he just doesn't know? But never mind, let us stop here, we don't want an awful Godfather III again.

[hskwarrior]

Besides, is it a contradiction? Freddy says he is not worried about names, yet he insisted on certain names as being correct and others are wrong, it makes me wonder, is he telling the truth or he just doesn't know? But never mind, let us stop here, we don't want an awful Godfather III again.

Joseph, as i hope you've noticed, i don't engage you like i used to. for one, you've proven to be the MISINFORMATIONIST here.

[TopCrusader]

My thread has been hijacked! :p Haha its ok. But to bring it back alittle bit, check out this picture I found. It is from BL's "Gung fu Scrapbook" which was printed fully in Tao of Gung Fu back in 1997 or so.
The scrapbook is mostly from other styles (Mantis, Eagle) but one page shows pictures of him and his friends and of Yip man doing various gung fu moves. At the bottom is a picture of him and Jesse Glover.

The word below the picture says "Goon Sao/Sal side kick to the ribs"
Not sure what is up with his Sao, ....he uses basically a "L" , same when he write Pak Sao or Lop Sao. Anyways...

So......does this help clarify anything or just muddy the waters?
Thanks

[CLFNole]

A side kick is chang toi so not sure if he is talking about the kick or not. I think Bruce had some exposure to CLF but not much else.

[jdhowland]

In the pic the hand tech looks like what we call pun sau. Maybe it's the same tech with a different name.

[Violent Designs]

In the pic the hand tech looks like what we call pun sau. Maybe it's the same tech with a different name.

looks like poon sao or boot sao to me, yeah.

[CLFNole]

It is hard to see the picture clearly. If he is grabbing the hand and then kicking him I thing you could call lahp sow. If if is a downward type block with the outer edge of the forearm it could also bei fu sow.

[hskwarrior]

I just blew the picture up Bruce Lee is blocking down hooking his hand as he kicks.

[Violent Designs]

I just blew the picture up Bruce Lee is blocking down hooking his hand as he kicks.

I'm gonna guess he meant to say Poon Sao. Probably either a misspelling, or does anyone pronounce it like with a "g" sound at all? Perhaps that's it? I dunno, don't speak Cantonese.

But the technique is what poon sao applied should be basically.

[hskwarrior]

i thought it could have been poon sau as well. Poon Sau - clinging hand.

[TopCrusader]

Wow, thanks everybody for the insight. Poon Sau is most certainly it.

Based on the picture, it is a scooping/deflecting block. Would that be an accurate description?

[hskwarrior]

redirecting may be a better choice

[Violent Designs]

redirecting may be a better choice

while your body also moves out of the way/cuts off the energy.

standing like a log while doing poon sao is a good way to get punched in the gut.

[hskwarrior]

while your body also moves out of the way/cuts off the energy.

standing like a log while doing poon sao is a good way to get punched in the gut.

it was all for the camera's and the DRAAAAAMA of it

[extrajoseph]

Wow, thanks everybody for the insight. Poon Sau is most certainly it.

Based on the picture, it is a scooping/deflecting block. Would that be an accurate description?

Poon Sau is usually done before a counter attack, it is a retreating move with the other hand on guard. It is not natural to Poon and kick at the same time, which goes against the flow. BL is attacking with his kicking already, so it is either attacking hand (Gung Sau, fingers pointing upward, striking with the 7-stars bones at the side of the palm) and foot at the same time or if he is to use his hand to block as he kicks then he would have been using a Puut Sau, fingers turning down blocking across the body and pulling slighly back as he thrush his kick forward.

[hskwarrior]

Poon Sau is usually done before a counter attack, it is a retreating move with the other hand on guard. It is not natural to Poon and kick at the same time

You have no clue. for bruce lee and his trademark movement it would have been his method to block and circlce down using the hooking hand to clear and redirect. as he is redirecting he launches his side kick.



BL is attacking with his kicking already, so it is either attacking hand (Gung Sau, fingers pointing upward, striking with the 7-stars bones at the side of the palm) and foot at the same time or if he is to use his hand to block as he kicks then he would have been using a Puut Sau, fingers turning down blocking across the body and pulling slighly back as he thrush his kick forward.

you don't sound too confident there. he didn't move his hand across his body. stop making up stuff. it's clear when you know how to block and kick that as soon as his hand makes contact with the others strike that he immedialtely, not going cross his body which would be a big waste of time, but immediately hooked down and out. He was fast enough to be able to kick instantly after making contact.

[extrajoseph]

You have no clue. for bruce lee and his trademark movement it would have been his method to block and circlce down using the hooking hand to clear and redirect. as he is redirecting he launches his side kick.


If he uses the hooking hand then it would be Ngau Sau, not Poon Sau.


you don't sound too confident there. he didn't move his hand across his body. stop making up stuff. it's clear when you know how to block and kick that as soon as his hand makes contact with the others strike that he immedialtely, not going cross his body which would be a big waste of time, but immediately hooked down and out. He was fast enough to be able to kick instantly after making contact.


It still would not be called a Poon Sau, it would be called a Got Sau as to you what you have described.

You know, there is no need to use extraneous phrases like "You have no clue" and "You don't sound too confident there" in your replies, they only inflame the discussions.

[hskwarrior]

It still would not be called a Poon Sau, it would be called a Got Sau as to you what you have described.

You know, there is no need to use extraneous phrases like "You have no clue" and "You don't sound too confident there" in your replies, they only inflame the discussions.

Minus the terminology i know what he's doing.

[extrajoseph]

You know what BL is doing but you have no idea the CLF names for what he is doing, that is the problem!:eek:

[hskwarrior]

You know what BL is doing but you have no idea the CLF names for what he is doing, that is the problem!

regardless of name, i still know the technique. period. even if i call it The blind man finding his way, it's still executed the same way.

and it would only be a small thing to get the names correct anyway. however, knowing the name of a technique will not ensure that the technique will be properly executed.

[extrajoseph]

i thought it could have been poon sau as well. Poon Sau - clinging hand.

You can't even get the meaning of Poon Sau right, it is to block with a circular motion, in the shape of a basin or a bowl.

http://chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/?pageID=CharDict/View:bushou&query=76C6

"Clinging hand", LOL!

[hskwarrior]

come meet with me. I'm sure i'll change your mind :D

[hskwarrior]

Bruce Lee is a wing chun guy and in Chi Sau is the poon sau. it clings just like you see bruce lee doing it in the picture. SUCKA

[extrajoseph]

Bruce Lee is a wing chun guy and in Chi Sau is the poon sau. it clings just like you see bruce lee doing it in the picture. SUCKA


HA! Alice the goon always scared me as a child ;)

Well, "goon choy" was printed in the following sentence:

"Two techniques that Bruce took from the choy Li Fut were Chop Choy and Goon Choy." -- by Jesse Glover (1st student of BL)

I have a feeling its a misprint?! maybe he meant Gwa Choy?

So BL took from CLF two techniques and one is his own WC Chi Sau! What did you put in your coffee this morning, Freddy? :confused:

[hskwarrior]

So BL took from CLF two techniques and one is his own WC Chi Sau! What did you put in your coffee this morning, Freddy?

uhhhhh, you're like talking to brick wall with typing skills. How do you know that what bruce lee was doing in the picture was a CLF technique specifically? you don't.

CLF is NOT so different to that of WC or any other method. so many other styles contain the very same techniques we do because NOTHING in CLF is unique to CLF.

however, i'm not going to try and educate you. keep thinking the way you do while the rest of the world evolves.

[hskwarrior]

"Two techniques that Bruce took from the choy Li Fut were Chop Choy and Goon Choy." -- by Jesse Glover (1st student of BL)

I have a feeling its a misprint?! maybe he meant Gwa Choy?

we saw NO Kwa Choy, and no one here seems to know what a GOON CHOY is. But, if you look at the picture closely you will see a POON SAU hand blocking the incoming strike. it doesn't take much movement to redirect it, just a little tiny nudge out of the way. even the picture has a small half circular motion drawn onto it.

i think YOU need to put something in your coffee old man.


**** another thing, if you look at the writing on the picture we are not even sure if it says Goon Sao as the "O" in GOON is not the same character as you see in SAO...it looks like SAL or even at lower case t. but it doesn't say SAO or even SAU

[extrajoseph]

BL is a Cantonese like myself, so he would speak the same dialect as I do, Goon Sal could be his way of saying Got Sau:

Got - to cut, to divide. That is to block with finger pointing down and across the body as I said before.

http://chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/?pageID=CharDict/View:bushou&query=5272

If the kick is already mentioned, then the hand (Sal) should be the other description.

[hskwarrior]

BL is a Cantonese like myself, so he would speak the same dialect as I do, Goon Sal could be his way of saying Got Sau:

Got - to cut, to divide. That is to block with finger pointing down and across the body as I said before.

http://chinalanguage.com/dictionarie...hou&query=5272

If the kick is already mentioned, then the hand (Sal) should be the other description.

could be, would be, but we just don't really know do we? LMAO

Did you see him crossing his body with that block and kick? NO!

[extrajoseph]

No, we don't know for sure, we can only speculate, and to speculate that he speaks Cantonese is a reasonable starting point.

[hskwarrior]

As you can see upclose here he is using a small downward and out circular block (Gort Kiu). But Got and Goon are nowhere similar to each other. as indicated on the picture the block starts from a guard position and cirlces down and out.

http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/17/27/57562717/photos/Our-Pictures/030111111450%20(3).jpeg

[extrajoseph]

There are varieties of accents within Cantonese, he could have been saying "Goot" instead of "Gort" and wrote down as "Goon". Same with Sau, some accent says Sow, so it is not unreasonable to expect him to write it down as "Sal".

[hskwarrior]

There are varieties of accents within Cantonese, he could have been saying "Goot" instead of "Gort" and wrote down as "Goon". Same with Sau, some accent says Sow, so it is not unreasonable to expect him to write it down as "Sal".

yes, he could have, but i guess we're left up to speculation.

[Violent Designs]

Personally, I don't think it is a gok sao at all. But that's just my opinion.

The way I was taught gok sao is a cutting, downward kind of pull almost, less redirection/diffusal but more forceful in execution.

The way I was taught poon sao and boot sao are quite similar.

Without making it an argument of exactly what is a certain technique, it just looks like poon sao from my (limited) knowledge.

[hskwarrior]

Personally, I don't think it is a gok sao at all. But that's just my opinion.

The way I was taught gok sao is a cutting, downward kind of pull almost, less redirection/diffusal but more forceful in execution.

The way I was taught poon sao and boot sao are quite similar.

Without making it an argument of exactly what is a certain technique, it just looks like poon sao from my (limited) knowledge.

at the end of the day, it's still a downwards and outwards circular block using the hooking hand. what matters most is if you know how to do it.

[CLFNole]

It is true what you say Frank but it is almost important to call it correctly. I also don't see it as a poon kiu becuase of how the pic looks.

By the way the blown up version looks like an ultrasound of a fetus. :D

[Drake]

We are not talking about skill, nor forms here, we are talking about correctness of names here. How would you like it when someone calling you Crank instead of Frank? "Hey Cranky, how are you going today?" You know, it just doesn't sound too respectful. :eek:

If the Chinese bothered to learn English when they come to America, why shouldn't the Americans bother to learn some Chinese if they want to do Kung Fu?

Agreed. I'm learning Mandarin right now. I just think it's something you should do. It's like learning French cuisine and never bothering to learn a lick of French.

[5thBrother]

Hey guys, this may of already been answered.. haven't read replies yet...

But Goon Choy is a very lethal and advanced technique of Goon Style, or Goon Kuen in Australia .... Often seen late on a friday or saturday nite :)

hope that helps :D

---

Footnotes:

* Goon - an Australian Slang word for Cheap dodgey Wine
* Goon - a thug

:p

[hskwarrior]

Eddie Murphy used to say GOONIE GOO GOO!!! :eek:

[TenTigers]

Gentlemen, I think he meant goang sao. Downward cutting or "cultivating" hand.
I just think Glover simply doesn't have a grasp of Cantonese, and spelled it the best he could based on his understanding, or lack thereof..

[Violent Designs]

Gentlemen, I think he meant goang sao. Downward cutting or "cultivating" hand.
I just think Glover simply doesn't have a grasp of Cantonese, and spelled it the best he could based on his understanding, or lack thereof..

Is "goang sao" the same as "garn/garng sao?"

Sorry my Cantonese is poor.

[TenTigers]

Is "goang sao" the same as "garn/garng sao?"

.
probably
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