bruce lee gung fu forms

[qwert2020]

i dont know exactly what is this form,if any one know please tell me


http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/qwertkkkhkkhhh/PALO-VERDE76.jpg
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/qwertkkkhkkhhh/PALO-VERDE77.jpg
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/qwertkkkhkkhhh/PALO-VERDE78.jpg
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/qwertkkkhkkhhh/PALO-VERDE79.jpg
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/qwertkkkhkkhhh/PALO-VERDE80.jpg
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/qwertkkkhkkhhh/PALO-VERDE81.jpg
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/qwertkkkhkkhhh/PALO-VERDE82.jpg

[qwert2020]

can any one tell me what is this form??

[YouKnowWho]

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/qwertkkkhkkhhh/PALO-VERDE76.jpg

This one looks like 功力拳(Gong Li Quan).

[TopCrusader]

http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/qwertkkkhkkhhh/PALO-VERDE76.jpg

This one looks like 功力拳(Gong Li Quan).

Actually, to me that looks like the "Gop Shu" (trapping forearms) hand motion found in Southern Mantis

[qwert2020]

thank you very much my friend about helping
but can i found this form exactly in youtube?

[TopCrusader]

Also notice on the "gop shu" hand position the first knuckle is pushed out, in the form of the "peac ock eye" fist from southern mantis.

I have a feeling the form is "Sarm bo Jin" which means three step arrow

This is a core form for both Chow Gar and Jook Lum Southern Mantis.

Also realize that the order of the letters printed on the picture were put there by the editors of the magazine these pictures were published in. The order (A, B, C) could be incorrect. So keep that in mind when you search on youtube, ecc.

[charp choi]

Also notice on the "gop shu" hand position the first knuckle is pushed out, in the form of the "peac ock eye" fist from southern mantis.

I have a feeling the form is "Sarm bo Jin" which means three step arrow

This is a core form for both Chow Gar and Jook Lum Southern Mantis.

Also realize that the order of the letters printed on the picture were put there by the editors of the magazine these pictures were published in. The order (A, B, C) could be incorrect. So keep that in mind when you search on youtube, ecc.


In Chow Gar SPM we know it as the "fung nan" or phoenix eye. Not pea****.
The pic doesn't resemble SBJ as I know it as his arms are too close to his chest for the dow sau position and we use the "ginger fist" not the phoenix eye. The other pictures in the sequence do not resemble the SBJ as I know it. It might be Jook Lum or Chu Ga.

Also the picture A position looks very similar to a part of one of the UK Lau Gar forms called "charp choi".

[TopCrusader]

Ah, very interesting!

I do know BL practiced Jook Lum Mantis while in NYC for a month. Gin Foon Mark has specifically stated that he taught him the Sarm Bo Jin form, among many other things.

Also, Fook Yueng taught BL many things, including Southern Mantis. I have never been able to find out which family, though. I have heard it mentioned Fook Yueng's Red Boat/Junk Wing Chun is influenced by Chow Gar Mantis, so its possible the stuff he taught BL was from Chow Gar. As far as I know, the details of their training have never been published.

[YouKnowWho]

Someone told me the last form that Bruce Lee learned before he came to US was 功力拳(Gong Li Quan).

[TopCrusader]

It is true, he did learn Gong Li Quan from Siu Hon Sang. But this was quite some time before he left for America. Shiu Hon Sang has said in interviews he was going to teach him more after Gong Li Quan but could not because Shiu was in a Wong Fei Hung movie (which would have been 1958)
After the movie was over, Shiu and Lee resumed their training about 2 months before Lee left for America. Within those 2 months Shiu taught him many things, mostly out of the Chin Woo Association form list.

[mig]

I guess there is somewhere to find more information and I already posted a similar question but nobody was able to answer. The problem is I can not find in youtube or internet a whole explanation of the name of the forms he performed and where he learned some of them. Here is an article that maybe someone can read better than me and HTH

[Syn7]

Also notice on the "gop shu" hand position the first knuckle is pushed out, in the form of the "peac0ck eye" fist from southern mantis.

huh... ive never heard it called that before...

[Phil Redmond]

He may have learned some Juk Lum Tong Long from Gin Foon Mark but not enough to do the forms correctly. ;)

[TenTigers]

I don't think it is any particular form, but various movements from a variaty of systems. The first pose is probably as stated, some form of SPM. The others do not appear to be SPM, but other styles.
Just because some magazine editor numbered the pictures doesn't mean he had a clue. Remember, BL loved to strike poses.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

originally posted by TopCrusader
It is true, he did learn Gong Li Quan from Siu Hon Sang. But this was quite some time before he left for America. Shiu Hon Sang has said in interviews he was going to teach him more after Gong Li Quan but could not because Shiu was in a Wong Fei Hung movie (which would have been 1958) After the movie was over, Shiu and Lee resumed their training about 2 months before Lee left for America. Within those 2 months Shiu taught him many things, mostly out of the Chin Woo Association form list.
I believe this to be slightly inaccurate. Shui Hon Sang was an older classmate of Grandmaster Ma Gim Fung. The whole reason Bruce went to Shui was because he was impressed with Wong Jack Man's abilities after his match with him in 1964 and he wanted to learn some of Wong's style (Bak Siu Lum and Bak Siu Lum Lo Han). Of course, this was the match that caused him to renounce Wing Chun which, despite what many would have you believe, indicates that Bruce didn't win that fight. After this match and before he began work on The Green Hornet, Bruce went back to Hong Kong a couple of times in 1965. At some point he wrote Wong Jack Man's teacher, Ma Gim Fung, and requested lessons. Ma was an especially gifted master and had taught Wong Sifu his BSL Lo Han that had been passed down from Sun Yu Fung. Ma turned him away, but Bruce managed to convince Shui Hon Sang to teach him. Shui was an older classmate of Ma's and during Bruce's time in Hong Kong in 1965 Shui taught him Gung Li Chuan and Jie Chuan.

[TopCrusader]

I believe this to be slightly inaccurate. Shui Hon Sang was an older classmate of Grandmaster Ma Gim Fung. The whole reason Bruce went to Shui was because he was impressed with Wong Jack Man's abilities after his match with him in 1964 and he wanted to learn some of Wong's style (Bak Siu Lum and Bak Siu Lum Lo Han). Of course, this was the match that caused him to renounce Wing Chun which, despite what many would have you believe, indicates that Bruce didn't win that fight. After this match and before he began work on The Green Hornet, Bruce went back to Hong Kong a couple of times in 1965. At some point he wrote Wong Jack Man's teacher, Ma Gim Fung, and requested lessons. Ma was an especially gifted master and had taught Wong Sifu his BSL Lo Han that had been passed down from Ku Yu Cheung. Ma turned him away, but Bruce managed to convince Shui Hon Sang to teach him. Shui was an older classmate of Ma's and during Bruce's time in Hong Kong in 1965 Shui taught him Gung Li Chuan and Jie Chuan.

I am sorry, but do you have any source for that information? Because that my friend is revisionist history. I can quote you two different INTERVIEWS with Shiu Hon Sang himself from the 1970s which completely go against the things you claim.
First of all, Lee trained with Shiu Hon Sang in 1958 and 1959. This is confirmed by Hawkins Cheung and Shiu Hon Sang himself. What they trained in is also confirmed by those two people.

The fight with Wong Jack Man was indeed in 1964-1965ish at the Oakland school. (James Lee was present). The fight most certainly rattled Lee.
As far as that it was that fight that "caused him to renounce Wing Chun" , then why in 1965 in Hong Kong did he visit with Master Yip Man several times, and later tried to convince Yip Man to film the Wing Chun forms so he could show him to his American students?
Wing Chun tactics and techniques continue to be a part of Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do training for many years and shows up in his own personal training regiment still in 1968. Dan Inosanto continues to teach Wing Chun techniques in the Jeet Kune Do "backyard group" up until Lee's death. Inosanto was teaching what Lee told him too.

Shiu Hon Sang did not teach Lee those forms in 1965, he already knew them in 1958-1959. How else was he performing parts of them at the 1964 Ed Parker Longbeach Karate tournaments?

If you want I can provide sources for all of my claims. Can you do the same?

[mickey]

Greetings,

Those photos are from a set that shows Lee going through a traditional phase; yet, no one has ever come forth and state where that sequence comes from. There exists the strong possibility that he created that sequence from his knowledge base.

mickey

[Siu Lum Fighter]

TopCrusader:

Perhaps you could point me to the specific interviews with Shiu where he says this. I read what Hawkins said, but I'm still skeptical that info. is accurate. If Bruce did learn those forms in the late 50's then it was because Shiu was friends with Bruce's father, Lee Hoi Chuen. Being a traditionalist, Shiu wouldn't have just started teaching Bruce Lee without a letter of introduction from Yip Man. Masters of different styles usually didn't just teach students of other masters. This was why, as far as I knew, Bruce learned all the other stuff he knew from his friends growing up. The Lacey brothers taught him some Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut in this way.

[bawang]

looks like hes doing basic blocks and 3 photos are just finger jabs

if bruce lee knew any real chinese martial art at all he wouldnt have named his style skeet coon do.

[wenshu]

looks like hes doing basic blocks and 3 photos are just finger jabs

if bruce lee knew any real chinese martial art at all he wouldnt have named his style skeet coon do.
What?
http://www.popmag.com.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/lil_jon.jpg
Skeet Skeet Skeet Skeet Skeet

[TenTigers]

guys-it's not a form, it's just random poses. Bruce Lee was always striking poses.
The only thing close to a form you see him do was that screen test-which for the most part looked thrown together from other sets.

[qwert2020]

i have many pics of bruce lee doing forms but i dont know the names of this form
i will post here this pics

[bawang]

i think charlie sheen is much more powerful than bruce lee. he can destroy him easily with tigerblood power.

[qwert2020]

some of this
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/qwertkkkhkkhhh/Gungfu6.jpg
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/qwertkkkhkkhhh/Gungfu66.jpg
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/qwertkkkhkkhhh/Gungfu91.jpg
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/qwertkkkhkkhhh/Gungfu69.jpg
http://i718.photobucket.com/albums/ww185/qwertkkkhkkhhh/Gungfu70.jpg

[wenshu]

Is that the Thriller dance?

[TopCrusader]

Siu Lum Fighter:
I do not have the interviews right in front of me, but will post the names and where they came from when I find the magazines.

Qwert:
All of those pictures have me stumped, but I am not a "Kung fu genius" that can recognize poses. However, the picture of him in his house (taken in 1963) I believe is a pose from Eagle Claw?
But the other pictures will be very hard to verify as they are mostly generic kung fu poses.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Well, if I see that Shiu Hon Sang actually said that, then I'll believe it, but there are several reasons why I can't automatically believe that Bruce learned from him in 1959:

According to some sources as well as Dr. William Upton-Knittle, who was the chief instructor of martial arts at Loyola University and taught Bruce Lee when he lived in Culver City, Bruce convinced Shiu Sifu after Ma Ching Fung turned him down. This was also after Bruce tried convincing Yip Man to let him film him doing Wing Chun (Yip Man didn't like that). If Shiu knew Bruce wasn't a student of Yip Man's anymore and that he tried to seek instruction from Ma, then I could see him giving him lessons. TCMA sifus in Hong Kong don't teach students of other sifus. This would only happen if the student wanted to start all over with another teacher and even then it would be touchy.

Hawkins Cheung may not have been given accurate information. He even admitted that Bruce and him always kept secrets from each other. They were always competing and they'd hold back information from one another about how they learned a particular technique. Usually this was because they didn't want the other guy to go to the same source.

If Bruce did learn from Shiu at that time then it was because his dad and Shiu were friends. Even then it would have had to have been in secret because if Yip Man had found out Bruce would very likely have been kicked out of his school. He was almost kicked out without being guilty of such an infraction.

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEKLxgRJnAc&feature=channel_video_title

[TopCrusader]

Ok, lets get started!

First of all, what would really help this whole thing is to figure out a specific time the BL vs WJM fight took place. I am not sure I have ever read a consistent time given. Some say late 1964, some say 1965. What is true is that the fight took place in Oakland with James Lee and Linda present. Why does this matter? A claim is that after the fight, BL sought out video of Wong Jack Man performing a form, which he later would mimic in Enter the Dragon, etc:

"There is a 8mm film of Bruce Lee doing Bei Shaolin #5 or attempting to perform BSL#5. He paid someone to film Wong Jack Man who was demonstrating BSL#5 and then BL learned from that film. Bruce Lee then had himself filmed doing the same set but from what I understand the quality was obviously not the same." SOURCE (http://jadedragonalaska.yolasite.com/bruce-lees-toughest-fight.php)

Only problem is, Lee has been filmed performing a section of this form (a set of kicking maneuvers found in many Northern arts) at the Ed Parker Long Beach Tournament in August of 1964. By all accounts (even from the source above, which states the fight took place in "Late winter 1964") Lee knew this kicking routine before his WJM fight, making the above claim that he learned it from a film of WJM impossible.

Now let us clear up what Hawkins Cheung knew and didnt know:

"To make money on the side, he said he would teach wing chun. I replied that he didn't have much to teach at that time; we had both only learned up to the second wing chun form, chum kiu, and 40 movements on the dummy. We had a friend whom we called "Uncle Shiu" (Shiu Hon Sang), who taught northern styles of gung-fu. Bruce thought it would be a good idea to learn some of the more pretty, showy styles before he left. Bruce learned northern style for showmanship. In the late 195Os, Bruce had already planned to hide his art. Many were looking for the showmanship, not the killer. Bruce would give them what they wanted.
We went to Uncle Shin's gung-fu club at seven every morning. We began to learn lam ad (a basic northern style gung-fu set). I hated master Shin's dog, and his dog hated me equally, as he would bark at me every time I visited. Finally, the early mornings and the loud dog made me drop out. Bruce continued for two months more and learned gung lik kuen (training power fist set), bung bo kuen (a basic praying mantis set), and jeet kuen (quick fist), all northern style sets." - Hawkins Cheung. Source: Bruce Lee's Hong Kong Years: By Hawkins Cheung, as told to Robert Chu, in "Inside Kung-Fu" November 1991

"After Bruce left Hong Kong, I went to Australia to attend college. We still stayed in touch by writing to each other. He told me he was working part time at Ruby Chow's restaurant in Seattle and teaching a few students Wing Chun as well as some of Uncle Shiu's northern style kung-fu high kicks. He wrote that he loved wing chun very much and he wanted to go back to Hong Kong to learn the rest of the system." - Hawkins Cheung. Source: "Bruce Lee Discovers Jeet Kune Do" By Hawkins Cheung, as told to Robert Chu First published in Inside Kung-Fu 91/12

I believe both of the articles can be read on Hawkins Cheung's website.

Now on to Shiu Hon Sang. One source (in English) I have is from Real Kung Fu Magazine. Article name is "The 1/5 Instructor of Bruce Lee"
The article is mostly a biography on Shiu Hon Sang, but talks briefly about his relation with BL as well:
"Though Shiu did teach Bruce Lee, but he never did refer himself as Bruce lee’s instructor. He was just Fourth Uncle to Bruce."
Picture captions:
"Shek Kin and Shiu Hon Sang are both graduates from the kung fu classes operated by the Chin Woo associations, and are both experts in Northern Style Kung Fu. Shek and Shiu are close friends of Lee Hoi Chuen, the father of Bruce Lee"

"Shiu Hon Sang demonstrates a chieh chuan technique. Chieh Chuan has the same pronunciation in Chinese as Jeet Kune, the unique martial art of Bruce Lee. From here it can be imagined that apart from the Wing Tsun techniques, the forms of BL’s JKD also contain essence of the principles of Chieh Chuan"

The other Shiu Hon Sang article I own is from the magazine/book "Bruce Lee: His Unknowns in Martial Arts Learning" printed by the Bruce Lee JKD club Hong Kong (1977) a few paragraphs:

"The kung-lik-kune was not long, about ten patterns and Bruce was quick in learning, so he possessed it after only three lessons. Sifu Siu stressed, “To say that ‘he possessed it’ doesn’t mean that he had the model only, but his actions were absolutely accurate and up to the standard.”
Later, he continued to request Sifu Siu to teach him some advanced boxing. It was 1958 when the movie series “Wong Fei Hung” was very popular, Sifu Siu had a lot of work to do. He was one of the actors and at the same time a martial arts director. He had so little time that he had to refuse Bruce’s request and had stopped teaching kung fu for a time."

"Two months before Bruce went to the US, he especially went to visit Sifu Siu. To Sifu Siu, he solemnly and clearly stated, “Uncle Siu, I’m about to leave Hong Kong, I’m serious! First, I don’t feel that wing chun kune is bad, but I want to increase my knowledge and learn the strong points of different kinds of kung fu. Moreover, I’m about to leave Hong Kong to the US. Over there teachers of kung fu are few, so I hope to learn some more so that I can practice by myself.”

Sifu Siu went on, “After Bruce had learned Wing Chun kune, he came to ask me to teach him some kung fu. I chose to teach him the second set of boxing form in the basic boxing forms of Ching-Wu school – Kung-lik Kune. I chose this because it is easier to learn since it is short. Later, he wanted to learn some more Chinese northern kung fu. He came to find me again. So I taught him some fundamental training methods in Chinese Northern Kung fu. Chinese northern kung fu is more well developed in the use of kicks. This influenced Bruce’s kicks as seen in his movies. He had made some changes because he wanted to achieve some artistic color. Moreover, Chinese Northern kung fu has wider actions. It is more more beautiful in applying these actions on the screen. In short, Bruce’s kung fu was based on wing chun kune first and was followed by the influence of my northern boxing.”
“Later, I taught him a set of jumping step boxing (Beng Bu Quan).” After a stop, Sifu Siu continued, “This kind of boxing is a basic boxing form of northern mantis kung fu. Its characteristics are jumps, skills, swift movements and the circular horizontal kicks. But Bruce was very smart. He learned it in six or seven lectures. So I taught him a set of Git-kune, the fourth set of the basic boxing forms of Ching-Wu school. Bruce had special interest in this boxing form. He liked it. He spent plenty of time in studying and analyzing this boxing form.”

“Bruce not only learned the above boxing forms, but I also taught him 2 sets of weapon forms. One of them was Ba-qua-dau, it uses the broad sword; the other was five tiger spear. However, he aimed not at weapons. Weapons can only be used in performing, and not in today’s society, so he concentrated on boxing.”

“Bruce and I were intimate friends. I’m his uncle. I tried my best to explain the meaning of the Ching-wu school to him. Later, Bruce absorbed foreign martial arts, reformed it and formed his own unique school of martial arts. But he did not forget his masters. In 1965, when he came back to Hong Kong accompanied by his wife, he often came to visit me and have a chat. He had also remembered the boxing forms that I had taught him and gave us a demonstration. He not only made no mistake in his performance, but he was very acquainted with it. In 1967, he came back again. Because he had to perform on TVB, he practiced in my institute and his opponent was Unicorn.” (his close friend, Unicorn Chan)

Ok, there you have it! There is much more Shiu Hon Sang says in those articles, but that is some important parts.

So, where do we stand now? Do we believe Shiu Hon Sang or "others" like those referenced in the online article? No disrespect, but the two stories do not match and thus somebody is wrong. By the way, you say you (Siu Lum Fighter) are a former student of Dr. Knittle. He mentions Bruce Lee was his student while he lived in Culver City. Any specifics on that?

[jesper]

It always amuses me how many people beat up BL or taught him. Ofcourse they all came forwards after his death

[qwert2020]

thank you very much TopCrusader about this informations
do you have other informations about bruce lee and gung fu?

[TopCrusader]

thank you very much TopCrusader about this informations
do you have other informations about bruce lee and gung fu?

Qwert, I personally study Jun Fan Gung Fu / Jeet Kune Do, so I like to study the foundations of Lee's art and martial knowledge. Shiu Hon Sang is one of the key people in his life in my opinion. The others are Yip Man, William Cheung, Wong Shun Leung, his father Lee Hoi Chuen, among others.

I know you have done much work in researching Lee's background as well. The arts that seemed to have the most effect on him at an early age were: Wing Chun, Tai Chi, the Mantis arts (North, South, Seven Star), and Choy Lay Fut. There are others of course.
If you look at Lee's personal gung fu "scrapbook" found in the back of Tao of Gung Fu book, you can see some of his sources. Pages on Northern Mantis, Eagle, Crane, and others all show the arts he was interested in. One of them, as you know, has pictures of Shiu Hon Sang demonstrating techniques. I have tried to find out what source (book, magazine) that came from, but with no success.
Good Luck

[lance]

I believe this to be slightly inaccurate. Shui Hon Sang was an older classmate of Grandmaster Ma Gim Fung. The whole reason Bruce went to Shui was because he was impressed with Wong Jack Man's abilities after his match with him in 1964 and he wanted to learn some of Wong's style (Bak Siu Lum and Bak Siu Lum Lo Han). Of course, this was the match that caused him to renounce Wing Chun which, despite what many would have you believe, indicates that Bruce didn't win that fight. After this match and before he began work on The Green Hornet, Bruce went back to Hong Kong a couple of times in 1965. At some point he wrote Wong Jack Man's teacher, Ma Gim Fung, and requested lessons. Ma was an especially gifted master and had taught Wong Sifu his BSL Lo Han that had been passed down from Ku Yu Cheung. Ma turned him away, but Bruce managed to convince Shui Hon Sang to teach him. Shui was an older classmate of Ma's and during Bruce's time in Hong Kong in 1965 Shui taught him Gung Li Chuan and Jie Chuan.

Hello , so Sil Lum Fighter are you saying that Bruce lost the fight against Wong Jack Man ? And the people who write stories like bruce lee alot so they disillusion people to make them think that bruce won the fight over wong jack man , and instead the truth was that bruce lost the fight against wong jack man ?

Because , I know that bruce had training in bak sil lum , but he eventually went into his own way of martial arts , so that ' s why he created Jeet Kune Do . Because if bruce got training in bak sil lum because he taught this bak sil lum was great , then why did he study and experiment with techniques of different martial arts for , if he taught that bak sil lum was the best ? And he lost against wong jack man .

And while experimenting with techniques from different martial arts systems and styles , he absorb the techniques that was useful to him and rejected what useless to him and kept the techniques which was his own . And it lead into his own way of martial arts which is jeet kune do .

And sil lum fighter that movie the true legends of bruce lee the one produced by
shannon lee , does this movie reflect into what your topic posts was talking about ? Well , bruce lee was ' nt that great as a martial artist , well people still worship him as the greatest martial artist that ever lived . And people still want to learn his art .

Because I read sources that is opposite of what your topic post writes , so
that ' s why , I have all this questions about bruce lee in my head ? And , if Bruce
lost the fight with wong jack man , then why is still bruce still famous . And why is some of bruce ' s students still teaching his art ? Usually if a well known martial artist had lost a fight against another well known martial artist , people would go and learn from the winner .


Take Care ,
Lance

[Darthlawyer]

Because I read sources that is opposite of what your topic post writes , so
that ' s why , I have all this questions about bruce lee in my head ? And , if Bruce
lost the fight with wong jack man , then why is still bruce still famous . And why is some of bruce ' s students still teaching his art ? Usually if a well known martial artist had lost a fight against another well known martial artist , people would go and learn from the winner .


Take Care ,
Lance

Bruce Lee is most famous for being an actor, not a martial artist. He didn't become famous because he won fights, he became famous for pretending to beat people up on the Green Hornet. While I'm a Bruce Lee fan, I'm not prone to believing that just because he continues to be one of the best known martial artists, that he must, as a result, have been one of the best.

Winning a lot of pretend fights in Enter the Dragon doesn't make someone a great fighter. While I respect him as a dedicated martial artist, fame isn't even a good indicator of fighting skill. And if Hollywood (or the Hong Kong equivalent) is marketing someone as being a great fighter, they aren't going to put forward losses as a marketing strategy.

[David Jamieson]

Bruce Lee is most famous for being an actor, not a martial artist. He didn't become famous because he won fights, he became famous for pretending to beat people up on the Green Hornet. While I'm a Bruce Lee fan, I'm not prone to believing that just because he continues to be one of the best known martial artists, that he must, as a result, have been one of the best.

Winning a lot of pretend fights in Enter the Dragon doesn't make someone a great fighter. While I respect him as a dedicated martial artist, fame isn't even a good indicator of fighting skill. And if Hollywood (or the Hong Kong equivalent) is marketing someone as being a great fighter, they aren't going to put forward losses as a marketing strategy.

QFT.

There are a staggering amount of people who project all sorts of nonsense onto this long dead man. I believe this is because of the cause celebrity and how for some reason, a great deal of humans seem to think that following someone else around will rub off on them somehow.

Of course, that's not true. Humans are funny that way. Really quite lazy on so many levels. Very few people who actually are willing to do the work and when there are one or two who do it well, the horde of lazy folk start celebrating them. :rolleyes:

..and so we spin around, together, trippin on the ball.

C'est la vie. :)

[TopCrusader]

To Darthlawyer (I like the name!)
I agree with you that BL is most famous for being an actor. However, what got people to notice him that eventually landed him the Green Hornet role? He obviously had some exceptional attributes to get himself noticed over many other martial artists of the day. Also, I think it speaks for itself the many seasoned martial artists from 1958-1970 who dropped whatever art they were practicing to learn from BL. Early guys like Jesse Glover, Ed Hart, Taky Kimura, Skip Ellsworth, Inosanto, and others all saw something in him that made him stand out. Like Darthlawyer and Jamieson have mentioned, Bruce Lee (while some would disagree), was not a all-out street fighter/thug. Im not sure why some people think that is a bad thing that he was not out killing people.

I hope I dont sound like I am defending BL, but I would like to put it into perspective. Let us not delve into revisionist history that there was nothing special about the man. Take away his screen time and it is still obvious the man had something to offer. Talk to any of his students or non-students like Ed Parker, Gene LeBell, Jhoon Rhee, etc and they will all speak highly of him.

And about Jamieson's comment.....wasnt that the whole point of JKD was to follow your own ambitions and not somebody else? Wasnt that the reason Lee closed his schools is because people were mistaken Bruce Lee's way for "THE way"? I agree, some people do learn or follow Lee because they are attracted to the status and level he achieved. But compare that to many other martial arts. How many learn Brazilian Jujitsu because of the level of success the Gracie family achieved? Or how many people learn Hung Gar kung fu because it was popularized by Wong Fei Hung, etc? It is not much different.

I hope this makes the slightest bit of sense. :p

[David Jamieson]

http://www.gifmania.co.uk/Bruce_Lee/bruce_lee_clenchfist.gif
Yes.

[lance]

To Darthlawyer (I like the name!)
I agree with you that BL is most famous for being an actor. However, what got people to notice him that eventually landed him the Green Hornet role? He obviously had some exceptional attributes to get himself noticed over many other martial artists of the day. Also, I think it speaks for itself the many seasoned martial artists from 1958-1970 who dropped whatever art they were practicing to learn from BL. Early guys like Jesse Glover, Ed Hart, Taky Kimura, Skip Ellsworth, Inosanto, and others all saw something in him that made him stand out. Like Darthlawyer and Jamieson have mentioned, Bruce Lee (while some would disagree), was not a all-out street fighter/thug. Im not sure why some people think that is a bad thing that he was not out killing people.

I hope I dont sound like I am defending BL, but I would like to put it into perspective. Let us not delve into revisionist history that there was nothing special about the man. Take away his screen time and it is still obvious the man had something to offer. Talk to any of his students or non-students like Ed Parker, Gene LeBell, Jhoon Rhee, etc and they will all speak highly of him.

And about Jamieson's comment.....wasnt that the whole point of JKD was to follow your own ambitions and not somebody else? Wasnt that the reason Lee closed his schools is because people were mistaken Bruce Lee's way for "THE way"? I agree, some people do learn or follow Lee because they are attracted to the status and level he achieved. But compare that to many other martial arts. How many learn Brazilian Jujitsu because of the level of success the Gracie family achieved? Or how many people learn Hung Gar kung fu because it was popularized by Wong Fei Hung, etc? It is not much different.

I hope this makes the slightest bit of sense. :p
Hello Top Crusader , I agree with you too about what you said about BL in your
quote reply to Darthlawyer . which is true .


Lance

[Darthlawyer]

Just to be clear, I love Bruce Lee. He helped make CMA recognizable in the US. I'm just cautious of hero worship. I'm sure he was a great fighter. I'm sure his kung fu was better than mine currently is.

However, I imagine what got him noticed was that he was photogenic and passable as a kung fu artist. If he had a lazy eye and bad acne, we would never have heard of him.

[TenTigers]

. If he had a lazy eye and bad acne, we would never have heard of him.

nah- that guy from the Venom Gang is sorta cross-eyed, and Jet Lei has that thing on his nose.

[Jimbo]

I have been and remain critical of the hero worship surrounding BL. Was he the greatest fighter that ever lived? Of course not. The greatest MAist? Nope. Have 'facts' been skewed in his favor by certain person(s) who have something to gain by Bl's legend? Most probably. But as has already been mentioned, he obviously had SOMEthing. He clearly was not your run-of-the-mill MA person.

As for his movie success, don't forget that he came from a movie background. He was a child star in HK long before Green Hornet, though it was GH that made him popular. He had a highly charismatic personality, above-average intelligence, and natural athletic talents. He may not have been a fighter, but I have no illusions that what he accomplished in his life was easy to achieve, because it wasn't. Otherwise anybody could have equaled it. Countless numbers have tried and failed. Esp. back when he did it; a Chinese actor becoming an iconic draw not only overseas but in the West as well? Unthinkable at the time. The fact that he's still popular and being talked about 38 years later says a lot.

[Syn7]

bruce lee was an interesting guy but as an actor he sucked... real bad acting... and he certainly was no hero, or one of the greatest martial artists ever...


that being said, i like the movies, theyre cheesy and cliche but i love em anyways... maybe thats why i liked em so much...

anyways, i think its misguided and down right unhealthy to worship this guy as anything more than what he was... a martial arts movie phenom even tho he never really fought anybody and was an okay martial artist... but most of that was conditioning, not some amazing natural talent... you see it all the time in sports...

[lance]

Actually, to me that looks like the "Gop Shu" (trapping forearms) hand motion found in Southern Mantis

Hello TopCrusader ,

By looking at your thread it seems like bruce lee studied alot kung fu systems which were different from eachother . Like Wing Chun , Choy Li Fut ,
little bit of hung gar , eagle claw , praying mantis , Hsing I , bagua .

In his early years he did practice the forms to this systems , but as times went on
he disregarded forms , and instead went on to practice mainly the applications to these systems .
The reasons why bruce lee was against forms was because people would ' nt know what they were for . Because in the chinese martial arts world , you have the forms for traditional purposes and the applications which are the techniques you really going use against the attacker should the situation arises .

There was a documentry film on youtube which talks about wing chun and JKD Guru Inosanto was telling the story about why bruce lee was against forms , while Chris Kent and Jeff Imada was demo using JKD techniques . Thr documentry talks about kung fu the hard way . They were showing Lee ' s concepts of JKD .
Altough JKD is a formless art , it useses tecniques from different arts in general .
The concepts as you already know were absorb what is useful abd reject what is useless and to keep what works for you .
Guru Inosanto once promise bruce that while he was still living , Dan would ' nt commercialize JKD , but he ' ll only teach the concepts of JKD , that is how it became JKD concepts . The meaning behind JKD varies , there different ways of describing JKD .

Lance

[Syn7]

ive never heard anyone call him guru inosanto...

[TopCrusader]

Hello TopCrusader ,

By looking at your thread it seems like bruce lee studied alot kung fu systems which were different from eachother . Like Wing Chun , Choy Li Fut ,
little bit of hung gar , eagle claw , praying mantis , Hsing I , bagua .

In his early years he did practice the forms to this systems , but as times went on
he disregarded forms , and instead went on to practice mainly the applications to these systems .
The reasons why bruce lee was against forms was because people would ' nt know what they were for . Because in the chinese martial arts world , you have the forms for traditional purposes and the applications which are the techniques you really going use against the attacker should the situation arises .

There was a documentry film on youtube which talks about wing chun and JKD Guru Inosanto was telling the story about why bruce lee was against forms , while Chris Kent and Jeff Imada was demo using JKD techniques . Thr documentry talks about kung fu the hard way . They were showing Lee ' s concepts of JKD .
Altough JKD is a formless art , it useses tecniques from different arts in general .
The concepts as you already know were absorb what is useful abd reject what is useless and to keep what works for you .
Guru Inosanto once promise bruce that while he was still living , Dan would ' nt commercialize JKD , but he ' ll only teach the concepts of JKD , that is how it became JKD concepts . The meaning behind JKD varies , there different ways of describing JKD .

Lance

Good information Lance, thankyou. Actually, in my limited research I found little info suggesting BL learned Bagua or Hsing-I except through books. Have you heard otherwise?

And yes, as Syn7 pointed out, its usually spelled Guro. :D

[JamesC]

ive never heard anyone call him guru inosanto...

Lol, I think he meant Guro, which is Filipino for teacher.

[JamesC]

Good information Lance, thankyou. Actually, in my limited research I found little info suggesting BL learned Bagua or Hsing-I except through books. Have you heard otherwise?

And yes, as Syn7 pointed out, its usually spelled Guro. :D

**** you TC!

You beat me to it... :(

[Siu Lum Fighter]

lance:

I don't want to say Bruce Lee lost because, at the time, they had agreed not to talk about it afterwards and Bruce Lee never publicly mentioned Wong Jack Man's name. Here are some things you might want to consider though:

1. It was not supposed to be a fight more than a sparring match that was related to correcting one’s belief in Wu De (Martial Ethics). (Note: This incident had nothing to do with teaching outsiders or were the Triads connected in any way.)
2. If it was a fight, it would have ended after five moves.
3. BL asked WJM for a re-match after 10 years and WJM agreed.
4. WJM was well known before the incident and was still well respected after the incident.
5. WJM is a strong believer in Wu De and he would have stopped teaching if he had lost.
6. If WJM had lost he also would have lost face and either learned BL’s style or closed his school and moved out of the Chinese community.
7. BL did close his school and move out of the community. He also changed his style significantly after this particular match.
8. At the time of the incident, WJM was regarded as a Master in the TCMA community while BL was just an upstart with about 10 years of CMA experience.

There's the possibility, as TopCrusader has said, that he learned the Jing Mo forms before 1964, but one thing is for sure, he called Wing Chun "insufficient" and basically changed his whole outlook on the martial arts after this match. Who would do this if they had won? Have you ever known a martial artist to change their style and call it something different after winning a fight? I have met and trained with many great stylists and masters and this is the only example I have ever seen of this.

originally posted by lance
The reasons why bruce lee was against forms was because people would ' nt know what they were for . Because in the chinese martial arts world , you have the forms for traditional purposes and the applications which are the techniques you really going use against the attacker should the situation arises .
I don't understand the part about forms being for "traditional purposes." The applications of any given style can be found in the forms. When I was younger I remember this being one of the first things I had disagreed with when it came to BL's methods. You're supposed to train with the forms as if you are applying the techniques. It's like shadow boxing. Because BL seemed to be just too ADD or impatient, he threw them out completely. That was his choice. But he was wrong when he said they were a waste of time or like "learning how to swim on dry land." Why learn TCMA in the first place?

And Syn7, I think you're wrong in saying that Bruce Lee sucked as an actor. He was probably the greatest action movie star of all time. THAT'S the problem when it comes to how people view his abilities. Magazines like Black Belt and Inside Kung Fu call him "the greatest martial artist of all time." Why? I think it's because he looked good. Beyond looking good, he showed that he did have some real skills. But was his credibility as a martial artist based on make believe fights more than actual fights, that is the question.

[TopCrusader]

Siu Lum Fighter,
Thank you for the reply. There is no doubt that the Wong Jack Man fight upset Lee. By all accounts at the end he felt he was not sufficient enough for his own likings. I am not sure this has ever been published, but I have heard that Bruce told Dan Inosanto two main things after the fight; one that he was very winded, and two that his hands hurt (from vertical fist) and that he should have changed up his hand strikes.
A point of debate is as to why the fight took place. The typical story is it took place because BL was teaching non-Asians. Of course the "Wong Jack Man crowd" are going to deny or change this part of the story because it kind of points out the fact they are racist. So of course they will change that part of the story to it actually being over ethics, morals, Lee being a *****, or whatever else.
However, if the fight was about ethics or because Bruce Lee was too outspoken (which was true!), then he obviously never changed that after the fight. As of 1964/1965 , Bruce was still largely traditional gung fu. It wasn't until ~1966 that Lee "started training more realistically" as he told a Wing Chun senior (either William Cheung or Wong Shun Leung, I forget which!), and started really criticizing the traditional Chinese arts.
Inosanto has said (ive personally heard him say this) that when Inosanto first started training under Lee, forms were still part of the curriculum. However, basically 2 months later according to his recollections, Lee told him that they were no longer going to learn forms.
It is true Lee moved away from Oakland, but he opened a Jun Fan school in Chinatown Los Angeles soon after! His moving to Los Angeles was due to his entertainment career, specifically for Green Hornet. And he never closed the Oakland school. James Lee continued to teach Jun Fan /JKD up until his death in the early 1970s.
Also, if Lee did lose the fight, then the Chinese community sure didn't follow thru to make Lee close his school. You would think they would have kept pestering him after the WJM fight, but I don't think Ive ever heard any stories of that being the case.
There is no doubt the WJM fight rattled BL. Knowing his personality, he took the fight very hard and it forced him to rethink himself. Quite honestly, I feel the WJM fight made him research/change his conditioning methods especially. Running, Jump Rope, Weight Training, and other such Cardio exercises became a staple of Lee's personal regiment and I think it is directly linked to what he saw as his poor cardio/conditioning for the WJM fight.

[bawang]

no one supports wang ze ming because in their eyes hes just another faceless chinaman.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Well, as a member of the "Wong Jack Man crowd," I don't have to deny or change the reasons why they fought for anyone. That's because I know for sure it wasn't over race. Out of all of the people I know who trained under Wong Sifu, more than half of them are non-Asian. He didn't pass on flawed or incomplete knowledge either. I've had the honor of training with some of these guys and they're among the most skilled and experienced martial artists I have ever known. One of his students, Peter Ralston, was the first non-Asian to win the full-contact World Martial Arts Tournament in China in 1978. Perhaps it's true that some of the masters in San Francisco's Chinese community were against teaching westerners, but this didn't seem to be a big issue for most teachers and it certainly wasn't for Wong Sifu and his friends. So the Chinese community as a whole wouldn't have pestered Bruce to close down his school. The Tongs could have harassed him but why would they have bothered? His school was in Oakland and they were mainly concerned with the bigger Chinatown in SF. I could only see it being a problem if Bruce were connected to the Triads and they were ****ed at him or something. Out of the two of them it was actually Bruce who knew more of these types of people.

The thing people don't realize is that all of this stuff about the match being over racism came from Linda Lee's biography. She may have embellished this part of the story because there probably were people criticizing Bruce for teaching non-Asians. It definitely made him seem even more iconic then he already was and it could only have helped her book sales. But from what I've heard from people who were around back then, Wong Jack Man and Bruce Lee weren't really enemies at all. Soon after the match there definitely was some tension when Bruce started blabbing about how he beat some "kung fu cat," but, unlike how it's told in "Dragon," they weren't life-long enemies or anything. They even shared some mutual friends. Bruce was a real hot head and when he first came to the U.S. there were a number of martial artists who thought he was a real @sshole but I think he mellowed out in time. Too bad the rematch never materialized. Maybe if he'd laid off the hash brownies a little and the muscle building electrodes.

[JamesC]

Well, as a member of the "Wong Jack Man crowd," I don't have to deny or change the reasons why they fought for anyone. That's because I know for sure it wasn't over race. Out of all of the people I know who trained under Wong Sifu, more than half of them are non-Asian. He didn't pass on flawed or incomplete knowledge either. I've had the honor of training with some of these guys and they're among the most skilled and experienced martial artists I have ever known. One of his students, Peter Ralston, was the first non-Asian to win the full-contact World Martial Arts Tournament in China in 1978. Perhaps it's true that some of the masters in San Francisco's Chinese community were against teaching westerners, but this didn't seem to be a big issue for most teachers and it certainly wasn't for Wong Sifu and his friends. So the Chinese community as a whole wouldn't have pestered Bruce to close down his school. The Tongs could have harassed him but why would they have bothered? His school was in Oakland and they were mainly concerned with the bigger Chinatown in SF. I could only see it being a problem if Bruce were connected to the Triads and they were ****ed at him or something. Out of the two of them it was actually Bruce who knew more of these types of people.

The thing people don't realize is that all of this stuff about the match being over racism came from Linda Lee's biography. She may have embellished this part of the story because there probably were people criticizing Bruce for teaching non-Asians. It definitely made him seem even more iconic then he already was and it could only have helped her book sales. But from what I've heard from people who were around back then, Wong Jack Man and Bruce Lee weren't really enemies at all. Soon after the match there definitely was some tension when Bruce started blabbing about how he beat some "kung fu cat," but, unlike how it's told in "Dragon," they weren't life-long enemies or anything. They even shared some mutual friends. Bruce was a real hot head and when he first came to the U.S. there were a number of martial artists who thought he was a real @sshole but I think he mellowed out in time. Too bad the rematch never materialized. Maybe if he'd laid off the hash brownies a little and the muscle building electrodes.


Thanks for the input Siu Lum.

As much as Lee influenced me growing up and such, I can see more truth in your version. It paints him as an actual person, and not as a mythlogical being possessing god-like powers.

[Drake]

Not even the dead are safe here...

[TopCrusader]

Well, as a member of the "Wong Jack Man crowd," I don't have to deny or change the reasons why they fought for anyone. That's because I know for sure it wasn't over race. Out of all of the people I know who trained under Wong Sifu, more than half of them are non-Asian. He didn't pass on flawed or incomplete knowledge either. I've had the honor of training with some of these guys and they're among the most skilled and experienced martial artists I have ever known. One of his students, Peter Ralston, was the first non-Asian to win the full-contact World Martial Arts Tournament in China in 1978. Perhaps it's true that some of the masters in San Francisco's Chinese community were against teaching westerners, but this didn't seem to be a big issue for most teachers and it certainly wasn't for Wong Sifu and his friends. So the Chinese community as a whole wouldn't have pestered Bruce to close down his school. The Tongs could have harassed him but why would they have bothered? His school was in Oakland and they were mainly concerned with the bigger Chinatown in SF. I could only see it being a problem if Bruce were connected to the Triads and they were ****ed at him or something. Out of the two of them it was actually Bruce who knew more of these types of people.

The thing people don't realize is that all of this stuff about the match being over racism came from Linda Lee's biography. She may have embellished this part of the story because there probably were people criticizing Bruce for teaching non-Asians. It definitely made him seem even more iconic then he already was and it could only have helped her book sales. But from what I've heard from people who were around back then, Wong Jack Man and Bruce Lee weren't really enemies at all. Soon after the match there definitely was some tension when Bruce started blabbing about how he beat some "kung fu cat," but, unlike how it's told in "Dragon," they weren't life-long enemies or anything. They even shared some mutual friends. Bruce was a real hot head and when he first came to the U.S. there were a number of martial artists who thought he was a real @sshole but I think he mellowed out in time. Too bad the rematch never materialized. Maybe if he'd laid off the hash brownies a little and the muscle building electrodes.

I took your post seriously until the last sentence. ;) Actually, I somewhat agree with you on the possibility that Linda Lee changed the story for the biography. After all, only Bruce, Linda, and James were present on that "side" of things. I also agree that there could have been no major problems between BL and WJM. However (and maybe Im incorrect), wasnt WJM basically told to go challenge BL by somebody else in the Kung Fu community?
Unfortunately, points such as these possibly being true (the fight wasnt over racism, etc) doesnt remove the problem about your earlier statements about when Shiu Hon Sang trained BL and what he trained him in, etc. Either Shiu Hon Sang was lying in those 1976 interviews or you were given the wrong information. Thats what your original point was in this thread, was it not? That Bruce secretly learned the art of WJM after his fight from Shiu Hon Sang and also learned some Northern KF kicking routines from a video of WJM? And that Lee abandoning Wing Chun after his fight? The funny thing is, as well all know, Jeet Kune Do is about liberation from the "classical mess" and all that other stuff. Why would Lee turn to further classical systems and forms of all things after his fight with WJM? Would that really be the answer to his problems in his fight? The discrepancy between what Shiu Hon Sang has said in interviews and what you were told still has not been clarified. Do you have a rebuttal or are you still sticking to your old story and info such as this: (http://jadedragonalaska.yolasite.com/bruce-lees-toughest-fight.php)

"Bruce Lee was so impressed with Wong Jack Man's skills that he wrote to WJM's teacher and requested lessons. GM Ma Kim Fung turned him away, But Bruce Lee found and convinced Shui Hon Sang, who was an older classmate of GM Ma. GM Shui taught BL at least two sets, Kung Lick Chuan and Jie Chuan (Jeet Kuan)."

(compare this to quotes of Shiu Hon Sang in my earlier posts)
Thanks

[Siu Lum Fighter]

However (and maybe Im incorrect), wasnt WJM basically told to go challenge BL by somebody else in the Kung Fu community?
I'm not sure if I should go naming names, but, suffice it to say, Bruce had p!ssed off various people in SF. One of these guys was a mutual friend of Wong Sifu's and Bruce's. During a demo at the Sun Sing Theatre, Bruce punched him pretty hard and he wanted to get him back. He went to Wong Sifu and his group of friends and complained about Bruce. This group included Brandon Lai and David Chin. From what I've heard, and I believe he says this in his KF Magazine interview, it was David Chin who was originally supposed to take on Bruce Lee. In the end Wong got his name on the challenge letter instead and the rest is history. I believe it was determined that Wong Jack Man was the more experienced fighter anyway.

As far as my earlier statements, I'll say that I'm now willing to at least consider it a good possibility that Bruce did learn those Jing Mo forms back in '59. Before this thread I was unaware that Shiu Hon Sang was friends with Bruce's dad. I was also unaware that the black and white footage of Bruce doing the triple kick from Bak Siu Lum was taken before late '64. The only clips I've seen of that were mixed into various compilations on youtube. If you could provide specific proof of this I would greatly appreciate it. Of course, he also does this kick in Enter The Dragon and it is in more than one Bak Siu Lum form including Mo Ngai (which is the one that was supposedly filmed). It should make one wonder when Bruce Lee is seen doing a kick from the vanquished master's style in his biggest movie ever.

That Bruce secretly learned the art of WJM after his fight from Shiu Hon Sang and also learned some Northern KF kicking routines from a video of WJM?
I never said BL learned Bak Siu Lum from Shiu Hon Sang. He only learned the two Jing Mo sets from him. Bak Pai Siu Lum was practiced by the fraternity of masters who were connected in one way or another with the Jing Mo school in Hong Kong. These men included Shiu Hon Sang, Yim Shan Wu, and Ma Gim Fung. Ma was especially proficient in Bak Siu Lum Lo Han which was passed down from the mighty Shun Yu Fung. Wong Sifu used techniques from BSL Lo Han and BSL in his match with Bruce Lee. It seems like Bruce still valued Bak Siu Lum enough to include some of it in his movies.

As far as Bruce's views on the "classical mess," it's true, as you said, that it was really around '66 (?) when he really abandoned traditional Chinese methods altogether. But the WJM match was enough to cause him to almost abandon Wing Chun immediately afterwards (even though he didn't learn the whole style). Many people will probably be surprised to find out that Sifu Wong thought Bruce Lee was somewhat right in his views. Wong also felt that many of the traditional styles were a little too "dancey." Wing Chun is actually less so than most, which is why I think Bruce should have stuck with it. But it's the high kicks and the classical stuff that he used in his movies that made him famous so I guess it wasn't all a total mess.

[David Jamieson]

GUys been dead for almost 50 years now, and people still argue about him.

And that's how martial arts become a big convoluted pile of mish mash, legends, BS, small truths, face saving moves and continually redacted histories.

Bruce never taught me nothing. There is not much to learn from any of his movies as far as kung fu goes unless you want to learn how to use a karate weapon basically.

He never demonstrates any traditional knowledge or forms and shows minimal training shots of wing chun kung fu training.

He was born in america, went back to hong kong, his parents could see he'd have more opportunity capitalizing on his american citizenship so back to america he went.

He like cha cha dancing and was a competitive cha cha dancer.
He learned some wing chun under his sihing in the yip man school.

All the other stuff is completely irrelevant. there is no record of BL ever having learned any Kung Fu system other than wing chun and even then, only part of it and not a full course in it.

It's worth remembering that all the stories that are told by others who were "close" to him are not going to be negative. Many people were blessed with having an actual career because of their interaction with BL.

Chuck Norris wouldn't even have a job if not for BL, same goes for all the rest who made bank off their connection to this guy who had more charisma than martial skill.

Still, almost 50 years later and people who aren't yet 50 themselves are convinced they actually have intimate knowledge of BL's life and his training?

Gimme a break. lol. Thanks.

[hskwarrior]

:eek: COME ON!!!!! TELL EM HOW YOU REALLY FEEL!

[Lucas]

anyone notice how in chinese connection the guys wearing hakama pants have them on backwards? LOL

[Laukarbo]

almost 40 years...:D

[Lucas]

i killed bruce lee with time travel dim mak.

[David Jamieson]

almost 40 years...:D

yeah, sorry. lol 40 years!

I was 7 when he died.
Most of you weren't even born.

That's what makes it so weird!

[Lucas]

Most of you weren't even born.

That's what makes it so weird!

thats why i had to use space time dim mak technique.

[David Jamieson]

:eek: COME ON!!!!! TELL EM HOW YOU REALLY FEEL!

No. I'll have legions of "chunners" filling my mailbox with spam and viruses in their verklempt attempts at vengeance for my truthiness. lol

[Lucas]

want to borrow my space time continuum 4th dimension touch of qi death?

[wenshu]

I despise actors almost as much as I despise Wing Chun so I have no overabundance of love for the preening manorexic.

But the man has been dead for nearly half a century. . .

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_LZZ116SJC7Q/TaM5Orz7XPI/AAAAAAAABd0/Ymxsbg-tWGM/s800/hater%27s%20brand.jpg

I think BSL resentment is better served calling out Songshan as an illegitimate PRC invention.

[lance]

GUys been dead for almost 50 years now, and people still argue about him.

And that's how martial arts become a big convoluted pile of mish mash, legends, BS, small truths, face saving moves and continually redacted histories.

Bruce never taught me nothing. There is not much to learn from any of his movies as far as kung fu goes unless you want to learn how to use a karate weapon basically.

He never demonstrates any traditional knowledge or forms and shows minimal training shots of wing chun kung fu training.

He was born in america, went back to hong kong, his parents could see he'd have more opportunity capitalizing on his american citizenship so back to america he went.

He like cha cha dancing and was a competitive cha cha dancer.
He learned some wing chun under his sihing in the yip man school.

All the other stuff is completely irrelevant. there is no record of BL ever having learned any Kung Fu system other than wing chun and even then, only part of it and not a full course in it.

It's worth remembering that all the stories that are told by others who were "close" to him are not going to be negative. Many people were blessed with having an actual career because of their interaction with BL.

Chuck Norris wouldn't even have a job if not for BL, same goes for all the rest who made bank off their connection to this guy who had more charisma than martial skill.

Still, almost 50 years later and people who aren't yet 50 themselves are convinced they actually have intimate knowledge of BL's life and his training?

Gimme a break. lol. Thanks.

David ,

You ' re right BL has been dead for more 30 years now , and he 'll always be a center of controversial . Maybe you did ' nt learn anything from him but , I sure did if you ever took the time to read nooks he ' s written or books written about him then you ' ll probably find out what kind of a man he is . His
WC knowledge was very limited because at the time he could ' ve stayed in HK to continue his training in WC .

His parents had sent him to the US , to begin a new life in the US and to go to schoo there .

And sure he did ' nt know traditional kung fu forms maybe only little bit , but he what took other martial artist many years of dedication to their respectful art , it took BL only a short period of time to learn and to progress on his own . He did ' nt like the old ways because he ' ll not improve that way . So he went non traditional which ofcoarse worked for him .

Imagine if he did learn the entire WC system then his art would evolved into something new . But because his life went the way he lived it , he had a hard time using traditional kung fu methods or any kind of traditional martial arts methods to make it work for him when he was fighting with someone .
So he came up with the concept of using whatever works for him and to reject what was useless ro him .

If you did ' nt learn anything from him then go you ' re own way , ofcoarse everybody is entitled to their own opinions right ? So go on your own way , when I quoted you I was doing the samething as you sharing with you my opinions .
Just like Eddie Bravo he realized that some of the ju jiu tsu techniques , he learned from the gracies did ' nt work for him so he had to keep on experimenting with all the ju jiu tsu techniques and finally found techniques that work for him .
So he made his own ju jiu tsu methad call Rubberband guard .
Samething what BL did and this is what the Late James Lee too .

He was an advocate of what was really practical for him instead of being impractical . Well you learn martial arts to defend yourself right ? For me if I found a technique that was ' nt working for me then , I ' ll throw it away , and keep on
experimenting with techniques that will work for me .
It ' s just a matter of being open minded of what techniques really works for you or not .

It seems that you ' re suited for traditional ways so go that way .

Take Care ,
Lance

[Frost]

David ,

You ' re right BL has been dead for more 30 years now , and he 'll always be a center of controversial . Maybe you did ' nt learn anything from him but , I sure did if you ever took the time to read nooks he ' s written or books written about him then you ' ll probably find out what kind of a man he is . His
WC knowledge was very limited because at the time he could ' ve stayed in HK to continue his training in WC .

His parents had sent him to the US , to begin a new life in the US and to go to schoo there .

And sure he did ' nt know traditional kung fu forms maybe only little bit , but he what took other martial artist many years of dedication to their respectful art , it took BL only a short period of time to learn and to progress on his own . He did ' nt like the old ways because he ' ll not improve that way . So he went non traditional which ofcoarse worked for him .

Imagine if he did learn the entire WC system then his art would evolved into something new . But because his life went the way he lived it , he had a hard time using traditional kung fu methods or any kind of traditional martial arts methods to make it work for him when he was fighting with someone .
So he came up with the concept of using whatever works for him and to reject what was useless ro him .

If you did ' nt learn anything from him then go you ' re own way , ofcoarse everybody is entitled to their own opinions right ? So go on your own way , when I quoted you I was doing the samething as you sharing with you my opinions .
Just like Eddie Bravo he realized that some of the ju jiu tsu techniques , he learned from the gracies did ' nt work for him so he had to keep on experimenting with all the ju jiu tsu techniques and finally found techniques that work for him .
So he made his own ju jiu tsu methad call Rubberband guard .
Samething what BL did and this is what the Late James Lee too .

He was an advocate of what was really practical for him instead of being impractical . Well you learn martial arts to defend yourself right ? For me if I found a technique that was ' nt working for me then , I ' ll throw it away , and keep on
experimenting with techniques that will work for me .
It ' s just a matter of being open minded of what techniques really works for you or not .

It seems that you ' re suited for traditional ways so go that way .

Take Care ,
Lance

lol i hate getting into arguements over grappling but bravo didnt invent his own BJJ method he refined and added to it but he did not create a new method, the guard is one position in grappling and the rubber guard had been around in various forms for a while, he refined it and created some moves and gave them cool names but that was it


Thats what happens with real arts they evolve and grow which is what lee did

And the guys dead let it go, he did some good things, some bad things he was human and i dout many here would be training if he hadnt done what he did

[lance]

lol i hate getting into arguements over grappling but bravo didnt invent his own BJJ method he refined and added to it but he did not create a new method, the guard is one position in grappling and the rubber guard had been around in various forms for a while, he refined it and created some moves and gave them cool names but that was it


Thats what happens with real arts they evolve and grow which is what lee did

And the guys dead let it go, he did some good things, some bad things he was human and i dout many here would be training if he hadnt done what he did

Frost ,

How nice to bump into you again on any kind of thread , I read his books that ' s why , and I also have his intructional DVDs . So frost , what kind of martial arts have you studied ? Just curious , that ' s all ? Or are you just playing around with me ? Well , it ' s good that he did what he did , because you know why . What took other martial artist regardless of systems or styles many years of practice and dedication in their respectful art it took BL a short period of time to progress in it .

And frost , if you don ' t like getting into arguments over grappling then why get involved with it ? So what ? You ' re going to be telling me that I really don ' t know what I ' m really talking about ? When it comes to martial arts ? You probably going to tell me that you know better than me right ? Well , who cares .
If you say let it go when people are talking about , then why are you interfering with my thread ? You have your own opinons right ? I was just sharing my opinions .

Lance

[David Jamieson]

Lance, no offense man, but you come across as a fanbois.

Books don't hit back in other words. :)

[lance]

Lance, no offense man, but you come across as a fanbois.

Books don't hit back in other words. :)

David Jamieson;1090632 ,

So what do you mean by fanbois ? Can you clearify that ?


lance

[Frost]

Frost ,

How nice to bump into you again on any kind of thread , I read his books that ' s why , and I also have his intructional DVDs . So frost , what kind of martial arts have you studied ? Just curious , that ' s all ? Or are you just playing around with me ? Well , it ' s good that he did what he did , because you know why . What took other martial artist regardless of systems or styles many years of practice and dedication in their respectful art it took BL a short period of time to progress in it .

And frost , if you don ' t like getting into arguments over grappling then why get involved with it ? So what ? You ' re going to be telling me that I really don ' t know what I ' m really talking about ? When it comes to martial arts ? You probably going to tell me that you know better than me right ? Well , who cares .
If you say let it go when people are talking about , then why are you interfering with my thread ? You have your own opinons right ? I was just sharing my opinions .

Lance

4 years korean arts, 5 years kick boxing when i was younger, 10 years traditional southern/hakka art under a master in the UK that is head of his family art, i became a senior blacksash under him and as well as his family art also learned tai chi for about 5 years of him and his chosen sucessor, also learned some hungar from them, studied bak mei, southern dragon and CLF with another instructor for a little while before joing an MMA and submisiion grappling club, the club has had about 7 guys fight in the UFC all the way up to title shot level, thats my history in the MAs,

So my grappling knowdlege might be a little bit better than yours who knows but it doesnt matter, and i dont really like bravo so i wanted to put the record straight on him not you :o)

[lance]

4 years korean arts, 5 years kick boxing when i was younger, 10 years traditional southern/hakka art under a master in the UK that is head of his family art, i became a senior blacksash under him and as well as his family art also learned tai chi for about 5 years of him and his chosen sucessor, also learned some hungar from them, studied bak mei, southern dragon and CLF with another instructor for a little while before joing an MMA and submisiion grappling club, the club has had about 7 guys fight in the UFC all the way up to title shot level, thats my history in the MAs,

So my grappling knowdlege might be a little bit better than yours who knows but it doesnt matter, and i dont really like bravo so i wanted to put the record straight on him not you :o)

Frost .

Who did you learn choy li fut from ? And who did you learn you learn bak mei and southern dragon , or was it 2 different arts ? Well I have to admit your martial arts credits are very impressive . but how come you ' re not humble ? In all iof your threads you sound like you want to tell people off and to criticize him .
Do you have your own school ? The reason why I ask is because you seem to have a pretty good martial arts backgorund . And you put down cheung so I want to see really see what you can do , in my other threads you put me down , so I want to see what you can do seriously . I know plenty martial artist who are junk , but I leave them alone , because I now I can do better than them . But why prove it .

And who did you learn grappling from ? You good background , but you don ' t list your teachers name , why ?


Lance

[Frost]

Frost .

Who did you learn choy li fut from ? And who did you learn you learn bak mei and southern dragon , or was it 2 different arts ? Well I have to admit your martial arts credits are very impressive . but how come you ' re not humble ? In all iof your threads you sound like you want to tell people off and to criticize him .
Do you have your own school ? The reason why I ask is because you seem to have a pretty good martial arts backgorund . And you put down cheung so I want to see really see what you can do , in my other threads you put me down , so I want to see what you can do seriously . I know plenty martial artist who are junk , but I leave them alone , because I now I can do better than them . But why prove it .

And who did you learn grappling from ? You good background , but you don ' t list your teachers name , why ?


Lance
who did you learn CLF from, who did you learn grappling from,,who did you learn hung gar from? :)

My credentials are not impressive and what does any of the above have to do with being humble? again when you say things like this it makes me wonder if you get most of your ideas about MA from magazines, no offence but thats how it reads

I dont list my TCMA coaches because im no longer in that world and see no reason to bring them into my discussions, i have listed my MMA coaches and gyms on several occasions because their are clips of me out there sparring and competing for that gym....to save you searching through all the threads its leicester shootfighters see i can be nice :)

I competed on their grappling team for a few years now i train their and other places for fun, the MMA fighters i have rolled with on a regular basis over the eyars include andre winner, dan hardy, paul daley, jimmy wallhead etc

so what about you whats your back ground?

[lance]

who did you learn CLF from, who did you learn grappling from,,who did you learn hung gar from? :)

My credentials are not impressive and what does any of the above have to do with being humble? again when you say things like this it makes me wonder if you get most of your ideas about MA from magazines, no offence but thats how it reads

I dont list my TCMA coaches because im no longer in that world and see no reason to bring them into my discussions, i have listed my MMA coaches and gyms on several occasions because their are clips of me out there sparring and competing for that gym....to save you searching through all the threads its leicester shootfighters see i can be nice :)

I competed on their grappling team for a few years now i train their and other places for fun, the MMA fighters i have rolled with on a regular basis over the eyars include andre winner, dan hardy, paul daley, jimmy wallhead etc

so what about you whats your back ground?

Frost ,

You seem to be nice , but still you sound a little insecure in you thread , and why
can ' t you list your TCMA coaches ? I ask for info on your TCMA coaches not your MMA training . Why is because you are ashame of your TCMA coaches ?

And I looked up Leicaster shootfighter , there ' re names of the guys you mentioned in your thread , which person are you ? Where is the video clip of you ?
Right you competed and trained with their team , but that ' s all it is . Anybody can train and compete with the people you mention on your thread .

But look frost , you said that you can kick Cheung ' s butt right ? But you know what I think , he can kick your butt . And the UFC which guy are you ? I watch UFC , but still the guys that I like all seem to lose , and the new guys come in .
And the MA magazines you mentioned , they only tell you about the fighters who compete , that ' s it , my ideas comes from watching UFC fights on tv not magazines . Atleast my threads tell people where I got my sources from , if I
don ' t tell people in my thread , you would ' nt have an idea where to look .
You can get your sources from magazines ofcoarse whatever information they can provide , internet if you ' re lucky , take up a workshop provided you go to it .
That ' s something you might ' ve done already . Continue to go the training sessions . This is how I get my sources on martial arts , and ofcoarse , you got to check out the teachers right . Ofcoarse all these sources that I ' ve mentioned can teach you so much .

So you go to practice your moves and learn and research from your own experiences . Grappling is like playing chess , I don ' t compete , I so I would ' nt care . I just research these arts just incase I end up on the ground .
if I had to fight I would fight standing , and respond to whatever my opponent wants to do against me , from there use your own imagination people , and you frost , you should already know this kind of stuff right ? I train with friends too , that ' s why .

And for eddie bravo look up warriorvideos.net look for his book , and they ' ll tell you the twister method , you exxagerate the story around , in your thread when you replied to me . I ' m just telling you to read the description of the twister book , don ' t need to buy it . Because you probaly got your own answer for this situation anyway .

In my own opinion , it does ' nt matter what kind of combative or grappling arts you do personally for yourself . You just need to practice hard to make yourself good .

5 years with chinese physical culture Assn. Learning Chop suey kung fu sets .
2 years with Sifu Hodges learning fut gar ( Buddhist fist )
3 years with Sifu Lee learning Sil Lum Fut Ga Kuen after that 3 years of training I discontinued , I had work schedule conflict , so I took my training home , and
continued the training . Other than that , I still research different martial arts system like boxing , muay thai , and different kung fu systems and grappling .
I don ' t compete , I just learn and practice for self defense , that ' s all . Another thing I do is invest in instructional DVDs , just to see how certain martial arts teachers are like . The teachers that I considered not good , I put it on the side and move on from there . Now you know my credentials . It may not seem much ,
but I can always evolve . My kung fu teacher Mr. Lee once told me that no matter how good you are , always get somebody better than you too . I also had my own share of sparring with people of different sizes .

[Frost]

Frost ,

You seem to be nice , but still you sound a little insecure in you thread , and why
can ' t you list your TCMA coaches ? I ask for info on your TCMA coaches not your MMA training . Why is because you are ashame of your TCMA coaches ?

And I looked up Leicaster shootfighter , there ' re names of the guys you mentioned in your thread , which person are you ? Where is the video clip of you ?
Right you competed and trained with their team , but that ' s all it is . Anybody can train and compete with the people you mention on your thread .

But look frost , you said that you can kick Cheung ' s butt right ? But you know what I think , he can kick your butt . And the UFC which guy are you ? I watch UFC , but still the guys that I like all seem to lose , and the new guys come in .
And the MA magazines you mentioned , they only tell you about the fighters who compete , that ' s it , my ideas comes from watching UFC fights on tv not magazines . Atleast my threads tell people where I got my sources from , if I
don ' t tell people in my thread , you would ' nt have an idea where to look .
You can get your sources from magazines ofcoarse whatever information they can provide , internet if you ' re lucky , take up a workshop provided you go to it .
That ' s something you might ' ve done already . Continue to go the training sessions . This is how I get my sources on martial arts , and ofcoarse , you got to check out the teachers right . Ofcoarse all these sources that I ' ve mentioned can teach you so much .

So you go to practice your moves and learn and research from your own experiences . Grappling is like playing chess , I don ' t compete , I so I would ' nt care . I just research these arts just incase I end up on the ground .
if I had to fight I would fight standing , and respond to whatever my opponent wants to do against me , from there use your own imagination people , and you frost , you should already know this kind of stuff right ? I train with friends too , that ' s why .

And for eddie bravo look up warriorvideos.net look for his book , and they ' ll tell you the twister method , you exxagerate the story around , in your thread when you replied to me . I ' m just telling you to read the description of the twister book , don ' t need to buy it . Because you probaly got your own answer for this situation anyway .

In my own opinion , it does ' nt matter what kind of combative or grappling arts you do personally for yourself . You just need to practice hard to make yourself good .

5 years with chinese physical culture Assn. Learning Chop suey kung fu sets .
2 years with Sifu Hodges learning fut gar ( Buddhist fist )
3 years with Sifu Lee learning Sil Lum Fut Ga Kuen after that 3 years of training I discontinued , I had work schedule conflict , so I took my training home , and
continued the training . Other than that , I still research different martial arts system like boxing , muay thai , and different kung fu systems and grappling .
I don ' t compete , I just learn and practice for self defense , that ' s all . Another thing I do is invest in instructional DVDs , just to see how certain martial arts teachers are like . The teachers that I considered not good , I put it on the side and move on from there . Now you know my credentials . It may not seem much ,
but I can always evolve . My kung fu teacher Mr. Lee once told me that no matter how good you are , always get somebody better than you too . I also had my own share of sparring with people of different sizes .

lol insecure where exactly, I don’t list my kung fu teachers because I don’t feel the need to, people can either judge me on my posts or what not, and because I don’t train TCMA formally anymore, I listed Leicester shootfighters because that’s where I train now and where I have trained for close to a decade

I posted the guys names on the thread to show the kind of guys I have sparred with and rolled with, if I have access to those guys why would I need to go and roll with cheung…when you have rolled with those guys, competed against the likes of them in grappling comps you can sort of judge peoples skills in grappling (or lack of) from their videos they post

Where did I say I could kick cheungs butt please post the quote, I said I was not impressed by anything I had seen from him and not impressed by his 1 fight video or his grappling clips and I stand by that

Do you have trouble reading English…I said I competed on their grappling team, where did I say I was in the UFC, again please show the quote?

The threads show your sources alright, magazines, video clips and interviews you have read mainly, they are not really sources you have done no real research you just read magazines and think it’s the truth

And why are you answering questions I have not asked you, again do you really read what I post I never mentioned magazines, ufc records etc? And again You mention the twister method of bravo, something we have NEVER discussed, we have discussed the rubber guard, but lets take the twister, or the gator roll as its known in freestyle I believe, again not made up by him but something he has worked on and changed the name of……

[David Jamieson]

What is a fanbois?

fanbois (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=fanbois)

:p

seriously lance, your defense of a dead man, your support of a myth and your diminishing of those who point out those fallacies pegs you as a fanbois.

I was a boxer, fencer and a wrestler before I even started to learn Kung Fu.
so yeah, I'm pretty traditional. :rolleyes:

but by all means, enjoy your dead god. :)

[bawang]

bruce lee eat poo poo

[David Jamieson]

bruce lee eat poo poo

Your quality level is dropping man.

More acid might help that. :p

[bawang]

i have writers block

[David Jamieson]

I'm removing a stripe from your troll belt.

also, I fingered your mom for your insolence. :p

[Foiling Fist]

Some interesting things about Linda Lee's "Story" of the private match between Grandmaster Wong Jack Man and Bruce Lee:

A version was printed in a martial arts magazine including Linda's comments, the magazine was sued in court by Wong Jack Man; and print a correction in a later issue. Her story was not credible, neither was she.

Linda Lee is not objective; she was Bruce Lee's wife.

Linda Lee is not a martial arts expert, so she has no standing as an expert witness.

If you think Linda Lee is an expert, then go ahead an train under her.

The original match was to be private, and Bruce Lee violated the terms by going public with it.

When the two fighters to go shake hands to begin the fight, Bruce Lee did not shake hands, but instead went to jab Wong Jack Man's eyes. If that what you call character, then you not in line with the ancients, or a man's word.

William Chen, who was an expert witness, has a story more similiar to Wong Jack Man's.

Wong Jack Man did confront Bruce Lee about the fight when Bruce Lee was alive, and is well documented.

Lee ran from a public rematch, to settle the issue. BL closed his school within months and left for China to study the methods of the victor of the fight; Wong Jack Man

Below from: From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wong_Jack_Man

"This is in contrast to Wong and William Chen's account of the fight as they state the fight lasted an unusually long 20–25 minutes. Allegedly, Wong was unsatisfied with Lee's account of the match and published his own version in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese language newspaper in San Francisco.

The article, which was featured on the front page, included a detailed description of the fight from Wong's perspective and concluded with an invitation to Bruce Lee for a public match if Lee found his version to be unacceptable. Lee never made a public response to the article."

More about the match at:

http://jadedragonalaska.yolasite.com/bruce-lees-toughest-fight.php


I believe this to be slightly inaccurate. Shui Hon Sang was an older classmate of Grandmaster Ma Gim Fung. The whole reason Bruce went to Shui was because he was impressed with Wong Jack Man's abilities after his match with him in 1964 and he wanted to learn some of Wong's style (Bak Siu Lum and Bak Siu Lum Lo Han). Of course, this was the match that caused him to renounce Wing Chun which, despite what many would have you believe, indicates that Bruce didn't win that fight. After this match and before he began work on The Green Hornet, Bruce went back to Hong Kong a couple of times in 1965. At some point he wrote Wong Jack Man's teacher, Ma Gim Fung, and requested lessons. Ma was an especially gifted master and had taught Wong Sifu his BSL Lo Han that had been passed down from Ku Yu Cheung. Ma turned him away, but Bruce managed to convince Shui Hon Sang to teach him. Shui was an older classmate of Ma's and during Bruce's time in Hong Kong in 1965 Shui taught him Gung Li Chuan and Jie Chuan.

[TopCrusader]

"BL closed his school within months and left for China to study the methods of the victor of the fight; Wong Jack Man"

Wow. He closed his Oakland school? You mean the school that continued to run until the death of James Yimm Lee in 1972? Even then, students under Bruce and James continued to train together after that.
He did go to Hong Kong in 1965, but it was because of his fathers death (Feb 7th 1965). There are pictures of him with family at this time. Read some of his personal letters to Taky Kimura to learn more. His wife and son Brandon followed after him and stayed for awhile. Also, in late 1965 Bruce was attached to the Green Hornet program and would soon move to Los Angeles to be closer to Hollywood.

I already talked about him studying Northern arts in a previous post....in 1958-1959, not 1965. This is confirmed by Shiu Hon Sang himself in many interviews in magazines such as "Real Kung Fu Magazine" and "Secrets of Kung Fu Magazine". From Shiu Hon Sang, Bruce learned Gong Li Quan, Jeet Kune, Tan Tui, 5 Tiger Spear, Ba Gua Dao saber set. Elements of Jeet Kune can be seen demonstrated by Lee in 1964 at the Ed Parker Karate Internationals in Long Beach, BEFORE his fight with Wong Jack Man.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

originally posted by Foiling Fist
"This is in contrast to Wong and William Chen's account of the fight as they state the fight lasted an unusually long 20–25 minutes. Allegedly, Wong was unsatisfied with Lee's account of the match and published his own version in the Chinese Pacific Weekly, a Chinese language newspaper in San Francisco.

The article, which was featured on the front page, included a detailed description of the fight from Wong's perspective and concluded with an invitation to Bruce Lee for a public match if Lee found his version to be unacceptable. Lee never made a public response to the article."
I heard from my Si Heng that after the article was published, Bruce and a friend of his (I think he was a Mantis kung fu guy or something) paid Wong Sifu a visit at the Jackson Street Cafe where he worked. I don't know what happened but Bruce was supposedly really ****ed about the article. I think he was trying to make it seem like he wasn't at fault for anything because he never mentioned Wong Sifu's name in the interview so, technically, he never reneged on their agreement to not discuss the match. I guess some people in the Bay Area assumed it was the match in question, and due to the details of the fight divulged by Bruce in the interview, Wong Sifu thought it was too.

When it comes to the controversy surrounding this match I think the main problem for most people is that in order for one side or the other to be right about what happened, someone must have lied. Honestly, I hate to say it, but I think Bruce fibbed about the outcome. Some of the circumstantial evidence supports this because his story doesn't completely line up with Linda Lee's. He said he threw this "kung fu cat" down to the ground and held his fist over him and got him to say, "I give up." I believe Linda says he pounded Wong Sifu in the face until he got him to give up. That is unlikely because Ming Lum says he saw no wounds on Wong's face (except for the scratch above his eye) when he saw him the very next day and neither Bill Chen nor David Chin would tell you that's what happened.

I hope this doesn't make it seem like I really hate BL or anything. I've known plenty of guys like him in the world of martial arts. It would have been extremely difficult for a guy like Bruce to admit defeat. His reputation as a qualified instructor could have been damaged and he billed himself as being the best kung fu fighter around. Sure he had a huge ego but that's the case with most of the martial artists I've ever known. It can be difficult to train with guys like that because they're always asserting themselves and trying to show you up but that's just what you get with some extreme MA enthusiasts like Bruce.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

originally posted by TopCrusader
I already talked about him studying Northern arts in a previous post....in 1958-1959, not 1965. This is confirmed by Shiu Hon Sang himself in many interviews in magazines such as "Real Kung Fu Magazine" and "Secrets of Kung Fu Magazine". From Shiu Hon Sang, Bruce learned Gong Li Quan, Jeet Kune, Tan Tui, 5 Tiger Spear, Ba Gua Dao saber set. Elements of Jeet Kune can be seen demonstrated by Lee in 1964 at the Ed Parker Karate Internationals in Long Beach, BEFORE his fight with Wong Jack Man.
After reading the Hawkins Cheung article on this I've been led to believe that this is indeed true. Shiu Hon Sang was good friends with Bruce's father and it does seem Bruce began his training with him back in the 50's. I thought he only learned Gong Li Quan and Jeet Kune though. I didn't know he learned 5 Tiger Spear or Ba Gua Dao. It would make sense since those are also Jing Mo sets. I do remember seeing an interview with Dan Inosanto in which he says Bruce knew the 12 Rows of Tan Tui. Does Shiu Hon Sang say that he taught him all of that stuff in the late 50's? If not, then it seems like Bruce could've learned some or those sets after the WJM match. The way Dan says it, it seems like the Tan Tui was something Bruce was drilling a lot when he came back from Hong Kong in the mid-sixties. It's actually kinda cool for me to know Bruce was training with some of the sets in my own curriculum. Those forms and the Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut (another Bak Siu Lum related style) he learned from the Lacey's definitely influenced his overall style. What does Ted Wong or Teri Tom know anyway.

[TopCrusader]

After reading the Hawkins Cheung article on this I've been led to believe that this is indeed true. Shiu Hon Sang was good friends with Bruce's father and it does seem Bruce began his training with him back in the 50's. I thought he only learned Gong Li Quan and Jeet Kune though. I didn't know he learned 5 Tiger Spear or Ba Gua Dao. It would make sense since those are also Jing Mo sets. I do remember seeing an interview with Dan Inosanto in which he says Bruce knew the 12 Rows of Tan Tui. Does Shiu Hon Sang say that he taught him all of that stuff in the late 50's? If not, then it seems like Bruce could've learned some or those sets after the WJM match. The way Dan says it, it seems like the Tan Tui was something Bruce was drilling a lot when he came back from Hong Kong in the mid-sixties. It's actually kinda cool for me to know Bruce was training with some of the sets in my own curriculum. Those forms and the Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut (another Bak Siu Lum related style) he learned from the Lacey's definitely influenced his overall style. What does Ted Wong or Teri Tom know anyway.

LOL I like your final comment! I agree. I have several English printed interviews with Shiu Hon Sang. I will double check tonight, but I think in one he just mentions Gong Li Quan (Kung Lik Kune?) and Jeet Kune. In another, he elaborates much more and gives a much deeper background on training Lee. From what I recall, he taught Bruce Gong Li Quan first in 1958. There was a break in their training as Shiu Hon Sang had to go star in a Wong Fei Hung film. Upon returning to training, this is when the other Jing Mo sets were taught. Im just going off of memory right now, but I think Shiu Hon Sang wanted to teach BL a longer Jing Mo form but Bruce declined, wanted something shorter. So, he was taught Jeet Kune. Another form that isnt part of the Jing Mo 10 sets that was taught to Bruce was "Beng Bu" from Northern Mantis. I believe this fact is also recounted by Hawkins Cheung in his "famous" articles on Bruce/JKD.
As far as the weapons forms, Shiu recounts in interviews that Bruce did learn them, but didnt "focus" on them since to Bruce learning weapons was secondary apparently. He obviously recalled a few movements of the 5 Tiger spear set, as he performed a few motions of it on the beach with Dan Inosanto in 1965-ish.

Siu Lum Fighter, a question for you since youve read the Hawkins Cheung articles. In them, when he lists the forms he learned along with Bruce from Shiu, he says they learned a basic Northern form called "Lam Ad" or something like that. Any idea what that is?
Here is the quote from the article: "We began to learn lam ad (a basic northern style gung-fu set). "
I dont speak or read chinese, so I have no idea if its another way of saying one of the Jing Mo forms? Id like your input.

As far as the Dan Inosanto interview, I cant remember when/where its from, but I do recall him mentioning Tan Tui. I could be wrong, but I believe Guro Inosanto is listing basically the arts Lee arrived from Hong Kong with. Also in the list he mentions Tai Chi, Wing Chun, etc. I'll have to dig around for it.

As far as the Laceys, yes they definitely hung out together and traded techniques most definitely. However, Im not aware of them sharing any specifics of what Bruce "took" or liked , however Im guessing the Panther fist is one of them as Bruce did that move ALOT as can be seen in photographs through the years.

[Ray Pina]

I don't think it is any particular form, but various movements from a variaty of systems. The first pose is probably as stated, some form of SPM. The others do not appear to be SPM, but other styles.
Just because some magazine editor numbered the pictures doesn't mean he had a clue. Remember, BL loved to strike poses.

I agree with you.

The first pick brings to mind S Mantis and/or Bak Mei.... but generally they just seem like a bunch of generic "animal poses." I could see Dragon, chicken, mantis, tiger claw.

A little bit of this, a little bit of that.

[TenTigers]

In Enter the Dragon, BL does the kicking sequence from the Northern set (forget the name) it is a popular sequence that is also trained in Chinese Opera, so he might have gotten it from his father as well.
In the black and white screen test nterviews, he demonstrates a "crane" form, which, I at first thought was ad-libbed, but he has done that exact sequence at other times.(I belive in Return of the Dragon)
Anyone know what this set is?

[Fa Xing]

I'm curious as to why it matters what forms he did?

However, I train Jeet Kune Do and the closest thing we do to forms are combinations.

Personally, I like learning about Bruce's evolution of his approach to combat, but since he threw out 95% of TCMA stuff for ACTUAL fighting I could care less what he did before.

Bruce's Jeet Kune Do as stated by many of his own students and in his own notes say that it was a combination of modified fencing, modified boxing, and modified wing chun.

[Ray Pina]

Bruce Lee is awesome!

[Lucas]

a combination of modified fencing, modified boxing, and modified wing chun.

you could clearly see his early beginnings of an infatuation with jiujitsu also. I think bruce lee's personal quest was to find and develop a system of what we now call 'a complete skill set' as in striking and grappling, standing or on the ground.

[LaterthanNever]

Bruce learned from a man by the name of Master Fook Yeung for..I believe it was 8 years when he came to Seattle, WA.

Master Yeung did a variant of Red Boat Wing Chun which had some aspects of Southern Praying mantis in it.

[bawang]

bruce lee learned a few northern forms, but never told people he trained in those styles. so what? whats the big deal?

[Taixuquan99]

bruce lee learned a few northern forms, but never told people he trained in those styles. so what? whats the big deal?

Bruce Lee was the first Chinese person to allow white people to accept him as their Confucian father figure. If we fail to preserve everything, then we bring shame on the entire line of actress banging epicness, and no one will remember us.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

originally posted by TopCrusader
Siu Lum Fighter, a question for you since youve read the Hawkins Cheung articles. In them, when he lists the forms he learned along with Bruce from Shiu, he says they learned a basic Northern form called "Lam Ad" or something like that. Any idea what that is?
Here is the quote from the article: "We began to learn lam ad (a basic northern style gung-fu set). "
I dont speak or read chinese, so I have no idea if its another way of saying one of the Jing Mo forms? Id like your input.
Unless it's written in a different dialect or something it doesn't sound like any of the basic 10 Jing Mo sets. I was thinking Lien Bo or Sil Wah but I can't imagine them being said like that. There are a couple of other sets that I actually don't know that could be it. There's Five Step Fist (Wu Bo Chuan) and Short Strike Fist (?). I have to say, that seems like a lot of stuff for just the short time he studied with Shiu Hon Sang in the late fifties, especially considering he was studying Wing Chun as well. He probably learned some of these forms in '65 when he went back. I would actually be curious to know if he learned the Tan Tui sparring set as that would definitely be something I could see him wanting to learn.