Rattan Ring Form and Flag Waving as Wing Chun?

[chusauli]

How many of you think a Rattan Ring Form and a Flag Waving form are missing from your WCK system?

[LoneTiger108]

:D Interesting poll Robert!

It will be good to see peoples opinions here, but I thought I'd better chip in first and foremost and mention that what I have practised with the rattan rings and flag does not come in a 'form' structure.

And my official answer to the poll is 'yes' ;) but I do use both rings and flags in my basic training of Wing Chun!

[chusauli]

:D Interesting poll Robert!

It will be good to see peoples opinions here, but I thought I'd better chip in first and foremost and mention that what I have practised with the rattan rings and flag does not come in a 'form' structure.

And my official answer to the poll is 'yes' ;) but I do use both rings and flags in my basic training of Wing Chun!

And my reply to you is that Rattan Rings and Flag Waving are not part of WCK proper as you presented them at Seni.

Maybe you could put up that clip of yours again.

Rattan Rings are occasionally used for Solo Luk Sao or Chi Sao practice, but not pre-requisites to learning the Baat Jaam Dao set.

Flag Waving might be part of Opera or Lion Dance performances, but are not pre-requisites for learning the Wing Chun 6.5 point pole.

[LoneTiger108]

And my reply to you is that Rattan Rings and Flag Waving are not part of WCK proper as you presented them at Seni.

Okay Robert, so tell me, what was it that we performed at Seni in 2001??


Maybe you could put up that clip of yours again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABntEYRqgQA

"A small collection of clips from our time at Jun Mo.

Jun Mo Wing Chun is the name by which our teacher Sifu Man teaches by. Established in 1978, the group has changes over the years and, some would say, peaked at the turn of the century when they appeared at the Millennium Dome and at the Seni 2001 Expo in Birmingham.

Jun Mo continues to prepare students for the stage, and this clip is just a peek at some of the fond memories we all share..."


Rattan Rings are occasionally used for Solo Luk Sao or Chi Sao practice, but not pre-requisites to learning the Baat Jaam Dao set.

If they are used like that you should know more about them seeing as YKS 'created' luksau! Yes, I use them for posturing and yum yeurng practise in a pretty similar way to others I have seen. Different sized rings have different purposes fme.


Flag Waving might be part of Opera or Lion Dance performances, but are not pre-requisites for learning the Wing Chun 6.5 point pole.

In your opinon. But you have not learnt from my Sifu or anyone in the Lee Shing family so... please! :rolleyes:

Actually, as you have also made clear, I have met and exchanged with Lee Shing family members now for quite a while and none of them learnt the flag as a prerequisite for the pole. Mainly because their school just didn't have a flag! But they understood the relevance the moment it was shown and felt, something I hope one day you will be open to experience too.

If not I will still continue to view and train Wing Chun in a way I feel comfortable, not in a way that is predetermined by an individuals biased opinions and limited research.

[Grumblegeezer]

How many of you think a Rattan Ring Form and a Flag Waving form are missing from your WCK system?

OK, how do I answer this. There's no "flag waiving form" or rattan ring form in my system of WCK. at least that I've ever heard of. On the other hand, I'm definitely not "missing" them. Flag waiving! Sheesh!!!:D

[chusauli]

LOL! I sense some back pedaling!

[anerlich]

I sense some back pedaling!

I sense some trolling for which I award you 1.5 / 10.

Rattan rings and flags are not part of TWC. I've mucked around with the rings but don't think they do anything that can't be done better by other methods and arguably are conterproductive. Just my opinion, YMMV. You want to do that, WGAF?

[LoneTiger108]

LOL! I sense some back pedaling!

Really? I don't think so. You tend to take everytthing I say as a representation of the whole Lee Shing family when I've said to you on numerous occassions that my Sigung taught everybody individually and that others have not practised things that I have.

I think the 1.5/10 for trolling is far too generous!

[bennyvt]

maybe we should do a poll of "do snap kicks to the head with the back leg exist in ving tsun" as on your students video in the opening sequence they do exactly that. when I put that to your student he tried to say that I didnt know all of ving tsun as it was in his.
For me every school has their own weird training things that they do or use. Cliff Au yeung (WSL) trains with metal poles, some use the rings ( i feel that it teaches you to push out which holds the rings but isn't what you want in chi sao). At our school me and other class mates have come up with some cool stuff, I made a metal dummy to use at work out of a roll of chain link fence and metal poles with the ends rounded for arms and a leg I welded into shape, My freind made a metal arm thing that you could do single dan chi with, speed balls full of rocks on rails to punch across the room.
Point is who cares what you train with as long as it fits what you want to acheive

[Grumblegeezer]

For me every school has their own weird training things that they do or use.... I made a metal dummy to use at work out of a roll of chain link fence and metal poles with the ends rounded for arms and a leg I welded into shape, My freind made a metal arm thing that you could do single dan chi with, speed balls full of rocks on rails to punch across the room.
Point is who cares what you train with as long as it fits what you want to acheive

Point taken... at least by this observer. Now, not to get off topic, but do you have any pictures of that stuff you guys made that you could post?

[KPM]

I've mucked around with the rings but don't think they do anything that can't be done better by other methods and arguably are conterproductive. Just my opinion, YMMV. You want to do that, WGAF?

I agree with Andrew. I've mucked around with the rings a bit myself. Now granted, if someone that knew what they were doing with the rings taught me, my opinion may be different. But just from experimenting with them myself they seemed counterproductive. The forward pressure in Luk Sao has an inward component. You can't do that with the rings very well. In fact, they seem to encourage an outward pressue that could really screw up your Chi Sao. At least that was my impression. But "missing from my Wing Chun?".....no.

[CFT]

I agree with Andrew. I've mucked around with the rings a bit myself. Now granted, if someone that knew what they were doing with the rings taught me, my opinion may be different. But just from experimenting with them myself they seemed counterproductive. The forward pressure in Luk Sao has an inward component. You can't do that with the rings very well. In fact, they seem to encourage an outward pressue that could really screw up your Chi Sao. At least that was my impression. But "missing from my Wing Chun?".....no.But if you are on the inside, might not an outward splitting pressure be useful?

I thought I'd seen the rings in YKS/Sum Nung lineage?

[Jansingsang]

Really? I don't think so. You tend to take everytthing I say as a representation of the whole Lee Shing family when I've said to you on numerous occassions that my Sigung taught everybody individually and that others have not practised things that I have.

I think the 1.5/10 for trolling is far too generous!

This is so Comical You killing me dude :rolleyes::D

Just when you thought it was calming down Ohhhhh S%^T It only gets better :eek: :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7q4HzXEaeU&NR=1

[LoneTiger108]

This is so Comical You killing me dude :rolleyes::D

Just when you thought it was calming down Ohhhhh S%^T It only gets better :eek: :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7q4HzXEaeU&NR=1

:D I'm happy to entertain, but your point is? :confused:

[Jansingsang]

:D I'm happy to entertain, but your point is? :confused:

Point is VINGTSUN /WINGCHUN Isn't a flaming Circus This seems evident here:(

[Liddel]

Point is VINGTSUN /WINGCHUN Isn't a flaming Circus This seems evident here:(

My Sifu along with WSL and LY would perform VT forms at the request of Ip Man for friends and they would speed up things and make minor adjustments for performances sake... now this vid is at the extreme end of this example but whats the big deal.

From my Lok Yiu Lineage POV.

I dont think rattan rings and flag training is part of IpMan VT or its predecesors, that being said i have no issue with others training these aspects as they see fit, especially when they label it under thier own banner.

In fact i respect Spencers Sifu for calling a spade a spade when there are so many people out there doing things far removed from Ip Man VT ( as an example ) but swearing black and blue its the only Ip Man authentic version etc etc.

Poor job on the trolling robert, this place is already so full of infighting. Ironic. :p

Each to thier own.

DREW

[Runlikehell]

Wasn't there a substyle of Sum Nung WC within China, that created a form based around the rattan ring? Actually, here is the information on page 2 of this thread: http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3076

Sure, it may not be part of everyone's curriculum or training but if they feel it works for them, to each their own.

[KPM]

But if you are on the inside, might not an outward splitting pressure be useful?


Sure! But that would be a rather minor consideration. Not an attribute worth spending hours working the rings to develop. The basic rolling platform of Chi Sao has an inward pressure. That's what needs to be trained and developed. Spending lots of time training on the rings would seem to run the risk of "defeating the purpose" of Chi Sao training. But that's just my opinion!

[KPM]

This is so Comical You killing me dude :rolleyes::D

Just when you thought it was calming down Ohhhhh S%^T It only gets better :eek: :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7q4HzXEaeU&NR=1

OK. I've watched this clip and the one that Spencer posted. First, the "flag waving" seems to be for demo purposes and not to involve any real technique. It does look cool! Its good to promote the school. But something the rest of us are lacking? I don't think so. What I saw of the rings in these clips seems to be just holding onto them an using them as a weapon. I didn't see any rolling training with them to develop Chi Sao. IMHO, that's a better application for them than as a training method for Chi Sao! :) But missing from my WCK?.....again, No! The pole method I saw was very curious. I've never seen any WCK system "twirl" the pole or strike regularly with the butt end before. This doesn't seem very "Wing Chun-like" to me.

[CFT]

I thought this video was more interesting and pertinent since this is what Spencer practices and teaches. Not about performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFyq9vGg-6g

There is a short sequence from 1:14 - 1:26 where he is gripping the ring with 2 hands like a steering wheel. He then raises the ring and does some alternate punching.

I would be interested to hear from him what the training idea is?

The lin wan choi (linked punches) I have seen have the rotation/replacement in the vertical plane (one fist/arm over the other) rather than the horizontal plane.

[LoneTiger108]

It seems that I have been taking a bit of an open critique lately, which is cool, but I feel like I've discussed all this before so I apologise if my response here is a bit sharp.

First off, thanks for taking the time to even look at the links posted! I do know this type of approach to demos isn't everyones cup of tea so I appreciate your open minds.

Secondly, please understand that this SENi show was in 2001!! That's a clear 10 years ago, when I was obsessed with training, obsessed with my Sifu and the troupe and pretty much anything I could get my hands on to improve my abilities and skills! Including the rattan rings and flags! ;)

RE: Rattan Rings. If you haven't been shown by your Sifu what they're for and how to train with them then you are missing out imho as this indicates to me that you may not actually practise your pole or knives in an interactive manner. By this I don't mean a bit of chigwan here and chidao there, I'm talking of interactive training that develops into your 'freestyle' weaponry sparring. The smaller rings used as a pair (like in the clip) are designed for beginners (as they don't have access to knives) so they can build confidence and stay safe under the pressures of the pole. They develop serious ‘grip’ strength and shock absorption control, which is actually applied quite a lot in chisau fme. Also light stepping and stance control are introduced. The single ring can be used to develop yum yeurng strength, like dynamic tension. This goes 'both ways' so I know some want to train this central forward force to apply pressure from the outside (outside a smaller ring) but the common ring practise I see trains the complimentary inside force holding you out! (inside a larger ring) All is worth experimenting with even if you have not been taught imho.

Now, the Lee Shing 'half pole' is not present in any other family from what I have researched and it isn't present in Ip Mans 6.5 set. I don't know why that is but that's the way it is. I’ve heard stories of Ip Man shortening the pole form with advice from senior pole players like my Sigung and Lok Yiu and the flag may not be present in what we see today because all traces or links to older more traditional ways of practise were also removed from Ips teaching in HK. I can’t say much else except if you don’t have the room for the flags/pole drills you can’t do anything about that, and in fact this may be another reason behind the flag practise and full length pole form missing today. The ceilings in HK were just too low :eek:

The common term for the circling half pole in the clips is 'fa gwan' or flower stick, so I take no offence to being told I'm too flowery!! :D When you practise your interaction under this pressure you will re-find your knife form. If you don't see that, even in the clips shared, then I would recommend you look into your knife form further because what we showed was one of the sets! Very basic and considered ‘Induction’ Training by my Sifu, something he feels every Wing Chun student should experience. If you can not defend a full speed & powered pole strike to the head and various other areas of the body with your knives, what can you really do with the form anyway? You will be killed by a decent spearman or wushu cudgel player!

As for the ring I used with Barry (like a steering wheel) that is to practise non-linear strikes like wang chun choi and chuen ma. These strikes arc during their arrival, to work around or over the arms, and the ring helps give a fixed guide. Again interacting with the stick gives added strength to the fist. Combinations can be trained too, which actually looks very similar to the Beng Chuan I recently saw from another thread. But again, ALL Wing Chun!

This also kind of fits in with my poll about Style and System. These are tools of the Wing Chun System and many Sifus, including Ip Man, personalised their teaching methods (especially when teaching for money and in restricted spaces!) and that's when I believe we westerners started to see the birth of Wing Chun 'Styles'. If your school is named after your Sifu, then you are learning a personal style of Wing Chun and it will carry signatures of the founding persons character.

I hope this has been informative enough as I don’t get much time at work to write like this but had a spare 10mins just now!

[leeshing]

How many of you think a Rattan Ring Form and a Flag Waving form are missing from your WCK system?

My humble opinion I would vote no I have never learnt how to wave a flag or fight with rattan ring I know Sifu Joseph Man teaches this and this is unique to him. I have trained with 4 other students of Lee Shing and they dont teach it either. I think but not sure that Sifu Man has a opera background maybe Spencer can let us know if thats right. But I did read a statement recently made by Sifu Man that Lee Shing only ever taught Ip Man WC

[Paddington]

With regards to the rings, do you use the outside as much as the inside when playing with them?

[LoneTiger108]

My humble opinion I would vote no I have never learnt how to wave a flag or fight with rattan ring I know Sifu Joseph Man teaches this and this is unique to him. I have trained with 4 other students of Lee Shing and they dont teach it either. I think but not sure that Sifu Man has a opera background maybe Spencer can let us know if thats right. But I did read a statement recently made by Sifu Man that Lee Shing only ever taught Ip Man WC


With regards to the rings, do you use the outside as much as the inside when playing with them?

Wah! Looking through this old gem of a thread was very interesting to say the least... but reading the last two new posts only proves one thing... people here simply do not read!

I have no desire to say anything more than has already been said here already.

Troll score... 0.5/10!!

[Paul T England]

I don't use the rings or flags, was never taught them.

I have been taught a couple of drills in 7 star mantis using them but even those are not that important and just extras if students need that.

There is not enough time to train things that don't provide significant benefits. IMHO

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[leeshing]

Wah! Looking through this old gem of a thread was very interesting to say the least... but reading the last two new posts only proves one thing... people here simply do not read!

I have no desire to say anything more than has already been said here already.




Troll score... 0.5/10!!

spencer you are not reading the post because if you was you wld see i was answering the first question spanner score for u as always 10/10 i dont read or even care what u write cause all i hear is blah blah blah get over yourself mate

[LoneTiger108]

spencer you are not reading the post because if you was you wld see i was answering the first question spanner score for u as always 10/10 i dont read or even care what u write cause all i hear is blah blah blah get over yourself mate

:D Steady there Mick, people will think we don't get on lol!

Why bring back to life a 2 year old thread asking questions and telling tales about my own Sifu, and your kung fu uncle (Sibak), that you already should know the answers to??

And then go on to call me a spanner!! Funny...

[GlennR]

:D Steady there Mick, people will think we don't get on lol!

Why bring back to life a 2 year old thread asking questions and telling tales about my own Sifu, and your kung fu uncle (Sibak), that you already should know the answers to??

And then go on to call me a spanner!! Funny...

I agree with you Spencer, he appears to be stoking a bit of a fire

[leeshing]

:D Steady there Mick, people will think we don't get on lol!

Why bring back to life a 2 year old thread asking questions and telling tales about my own Sifu, and your kung fu uncle (Sibak), that you already should know the answers to??



And then go on to call me a spanner!! Funny...

huh how am i telling tales your sifu my sibak made a public statement that lee shing only ever trained under ip man he even called it a public statement so howvis that telling tales and spanner is in response to troll and yes i thought it was funny too why are you use my answer in your reply i wasnt even replying to you MATE

[leeshing]

I agree with you Spencer, he appears to be stoking a bit of a fire

how is that i havent been on the forum for 2 years and ive only just seen the question and seeing as it mentions my family i thought i would give my answer its really that simple

[LoneTiger108]

huh how am i telling tales your sifu my sibak made a public statement that lee shing only ever trained under ip man he even called it a public statement so howvis that telling tales and spanner is in response to troll and yes i thought it was funny too why are you use my answer in your reply i wasnt even replying to you MATE

Would be nice to see the public statement you refer to because I personally think you are confused... representing Ip Man since 1963 and teaching 'Ip Man Wing Chun' are two very very different things as you know already!

And FWIW I used your post to respond to because you asked me a direct question by name and talked about my Sifu... can I not respond to such requests now??

[leeshing]

Would be nice to see the public statement you refer to because I personally think you are confused... representing Ip Man since 1963 and teaching 'Ip Man Wing Chun' are two very very different things as you know already!

And FWIW I used your post to respond to because you asked me a direct question by name and talked about my Sifu... can I not respond to such requests now??

So thats good then we agree Sigung also learnt from Fong Yee Ming & Fung Sang before and after training with Ip Man as well as others so then why all the problems So tell me what the problems with teaching and promoting that because that seems to be the root of all the problems and why deny Dai Lim Tao & Pin Sun. Its just the same as me saying that Lee Shing didnt teach the rattan ring and flag just because we dont do it do you see how silly it is now

[LoneTiger108]

So thats good then we agree Sigung also learnt from Fong Yee Ming & Fung Sang before and after training with Ip Man as well as others so then why all the problems So tell me what the problems with teaching and promoting that because that seems to be the root of all the problems and why deny Dai Lim Tao & Pin Sun. Its just the same as me saying that Lee Shing didnt teach the rattan ring and flag just because we dont do it do you see how silly it is now

So much can be said about this nugget of information, but I can't say anything more than good luck cousin

[leeshing]

So much can be said about this nugget of information, but I can't say anything more than good luck cousin


Thanks but I will say someone should because until that happens it will never be united

[Paddington]

Wah! Looking through this old gem of a thread was very interesting to say the least... but reading the last two new posts only proves one thing... people here simply do not read!

I have no desire to say anything more than has already been said here already.

Troll score... 0.5/10!!

It was just a question. These forums fail on so many levels.

[LoneTiger108]

It was just a question. These forums fail on so many levels.

They sure do... This is a 2 year old thread. Initially posted by Robert Chu in an attempt to start dialogue and, no doubt, invite heavy criticism about my own promotions about my experience training such things as the rattan rings and flags. So considering I have already said as much as I can here 2 years ago I'm not going to repeat myself.

There are many other threads in the past I have been a part of where I also share what I know about the training history of my sigung too so I really can not see the point of agreeing or disagreeing with anyone here because its all been said before... Like I have already said before!

Sod it! Did I just repeat myself again???

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,

A question for the Lee Sing guys???

The late Fung Sang Sifu was born in 1940. He began teaching at the age of 28 when he moved to Hong Kong. This was in 1968.

My question is; What year did Lee Shing train with Fung Sang?

Thanks,

[leeshing]

Hello,

A question for the Lee Sing guys???

The late Fung Sang Sifu was born in 1940. He began teaching at the age of 28 when he moved to Hong Kong. This was in 1968.

My question is; What year did Lee Shing train with Fung Sang?

Thanks,

Jim
Lee Shing continued to travel back to HK Throughout his lifetime as he still had businesses over there and would always visit his WC teachers So this training was spanned over many years. When trying to focus in on specific dates the mistake many people make is focusing in on the date that Lee Shing moved to the UK,

[Jim Roselando]

Thanks for the info.

Does anyone know what year did Lee Shing first start teaching his Pin Sun? Who was the first to learn and what year was that?

[leeshing]

Thanks for the info.

Does anyone know what year did Lee Shing first start teaching his Pin Sun? Who was the first to learn and what year was that?

That one Im not to sure but I know for sure that he first taught his sons and that my Sifu was learning Pin Sun in the early 70s he didnt teach it to all his students that I do know but I will try and find out I am visiting my Sifu in morn so will try and get some more info, but he never taught it openly