Chain Punching/beng chuan

[TenTigers]

I would like to ask any WCK and Hsing-Yi if there are similarities between chain punches and beng chuan.
It has been my experience that too many people look at chain punches to be a weak, elbow-driven punch, lacking in power.
My experience has been quite different. When the punch is connected to the body/stance, it is extremely powerful.
It seems to have a striking (pun intended..cause I'm funny)resemblance to beng chuan.
If one lowers the strike to the body, suddenly it looks like hsing yi.
I know I am making a statement based upon my lack of knowledge of Hsing-Yi, having most of my experience based upon observation, so I am asking if there are any people on the forum who have experience in both, who can give a well-educated response.

[YouKnowWho]

I have trained both. IMO, the difference is:

- The WC chain punch starts from the center of the chest. The path is shorter (more speed). The XingYi Beng Chuan starts from the side of the waist. The path is longer (more power).

- The footwork for WC chain punch is not emphasized. At the end of the 标指(Biao Zhi) form, the chain punches is done with stational stance. The footwork for XingYi Beng Chuan uses the 1/2 step (move front leg and back leg follow) so the body momentum is behind the punch. The leg movement and arm movement is coordinated more in detail (some coordinate their punch with their front leg, some coordinate their punch with their back leg).

One should be able to do:

- 1 step multiple punches (WC chain punch).
- 1 step 1 punch (XingYi Beng Chuan).
- multiple steps 1 punch (Longfist running punch).

to meet the combat situation. Both WC, XingYi, and Longfist approaches all have their places in combat. There is no right of wrong in TCMA but "trade off".

[TenTigers]

I have trained both. IMO, the difference is:

- The WC chain punch starts from the center of the chest. The path is shorter (more speed). The XingYi Beng Chuan starts from the side of the waist. The path is longer (more power).

- The footwork for WC chain punch is not emphasized. At the end of the 标指(Biao Zhi) form, the chain punches is done with stational stance. The footwork for XingYi Beng Chuan uses the 1/2 step (move front leg and back leg follow) so the body momentum is behind the punch. The leg movement and arm movement is coordinated more in detail (some coordinate their punch with their front leg, some coordinate their punch with their back leg).

One should be able to do:

- 1 step multiple punches (WC chain punch).
- 1 step 1 punch (XingYi Beng Chuan).
- multiple steps 1 punch (Longfist running punch).

to meet the combat situation. Both WC, XingYi, and Longfist approaches all have their places in combat. There is no right of wrong in TCMA but "trade off".

yes, in the form, it is stationary, but in drills and in practice, what you described for beng chuan applies to chain punching.

[Vajramusti]

I would like to ask any WCK and Hsing-Yi if there are similarities between chain punches and beng chuan.
It has been my experience that too many people look at chain punches to be a weak, elbow-driven punch, lacking in power.
My experience has been quite different. When the punch is connected to the body/stance, it is extremely powerful.
It seems to have a striking (pun intended..cause I'm funny)resemblance to beng chuan.
If one lowers the strike to the body, suddenly it looks like hsing yi.
I know I am making a statement based upon my lack of knowledge of Hsing-Yi, having most of my experience based upon observation, so I am asking if there are any people on the forum who have experience in both, who can give a well-educated response.
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Anecdote- a IP Man story had him being asked what was the nature of his art. He reportedly said with a smile- I do a liitle Hsing-Yi. A friend of mine who I have lost track of did hsing-Yi and belonged to a neija group and he showed me his stepping in low punch.

Things can look similar yet be quite different. Structurally and in footwork wing chun is not Hsing -Yi..buta good wing chun punch coming from a good wing chun structure is indeed powerful. Developmentally, you train the role of the elbow first- ultimately your punch is coordinated with your whole body and with stepping and turning many additional power paths are focused in the punch.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Is this is good representation of Beng Chuan?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYkocZCvucw&feature=related

Or are there more variations?

From this clip I can see big similarities to certain single fist drills I have experimented with and other clips I see more of a lien wan (chain) approach wchich is exactly the same except for the fist being chambered at the waist and maybe hip/knee placement in the stepping/stance.

[Grumblegeezer]

- The WC chain punch starts from the center of the chest. The path is shorter (more speed). The XingYi Beng Chuan starts from the side of the waist. The path is longer (more power).

YouKnowWho, I'd add a caveat here. Although this may be a fair generalization (I can't say, since I'm ignorant regarding XingYi ), some might misinterpret your statement to think that a WC punch is inherently weak due to it's short delivery. I'd like to point out that a short path may be very powerful if you really get the body behind it with the proper kinetic linkage, and release your energy fully. "Short power" isn't unique to WC either. If you've ever felt Rene Latosa's short punching power, you'd be impressed too, and that's FMA.





- The footwork for WC chain punch is not emphasized. At the end of the 标指(Biao Zhi) form, the chain punches is done with stational stance. The footwork for XingYi Beng Chuan uses the 1/2 step (move front leg and back leg follow) so the body momentum is behind the punch. The leg movement and arm movement is coordinated more in detail (some coordinate their punch with their front leg, some coordinate their punch with their back leg).

I don't know. We spend a lot of time linking our WC punches to our stance and steps. When you link your punch to a step or turn, the power is greatly enhanced. Sometimes your punches come fast with just elbow and wrist power, sometimes the situation allows you to deliver a very heavy punch linked to your step or turn. Both have their place.

Now about linking it to the front or back foot, I'd say that depends to some degree on weighting. In my WC (derived from years in LT's "WT") I use a back-weighted stance, so I tend to link my heaviest punch to the movement of the back leg since that corresponds to my body weight. When training Escrima, my weight is more often forward, so then I am likely to punch as I move my front foot. If you use a 50-50 weighting, it seems logical that the punch can link to the movement of either foot. Que no?



One should be able to do:

- 1 step multiple punches (WC chain punch).
- 1 step 1 punch (XingYi Beng Chuan).
- multiple steps 1 punch (Longfist running punch).

It seems to me that good WC should be able to cover both the top two above.




...to meet the combat situation. Both WC, XingYi, and Longfist approaches all have their places in combat. There is no right of wrong in TCMA but "trade off".

I really like what you are saying here. I get so tired of the "We're right, you're wrong!" attitude. As you say, there are always trade-offs. Before making a leap to judgement, it's wise to consider the rationale for why something is done.

[YouKnowWho]

Here is another major trade off between the southern CMA and northern CMA. That's the square shouder and linear shoulder.

In the following WC punch picture, you can see the WC guy punches with a square shoulder (his chest and arm are in 90 degree). Since the distance between his right hand and left hand have equal reach to his opponent, he can use his left arm and right arm to punch at the same time, this make the "chain punches" possible. he can use both right arm and left arm for offense and defense.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.eastwest-wingchun.com/journal/handsx/chisao2-2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.eastwest-wingchun.com/journal/handsx/handscrossed2.html&usg=__SAXZ6DNaSafYw79TzUi7ldlwAzQ=&h=300&w=400&sz=49&hl=en&start=79&zoom=1&tbnid=d_QTvGzYhAaNlM:&tbnh=153&tbnw=204&ei=TYFuTcy6K8G5tgeb1I3xDg&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dwing%2BChun%2Bpunch%26hl%3Den%26sa%3D X%26rlz%3D1I7DLUS_en%26biw%3D1379%26bih%3D857%26tb s%3Disch:10%2C1926&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=568&vpy=561&dur=302&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=180&ty=83&oei=JIFuTYWXDoL98AbK5PX4Dg&page=4&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:79&biw=1379&bih=857

In the following picture, you can see the longfist guy punches with his chest, shoulder, and arm in a straight line (his chest and arm are in 180 degree). Since his right arm is much longer than the left arm, this make the "chain punches" impossible. He pretty much uses his right hand for offense and left hand for defense. But since he will have much longer reach, that's the PRO for the longfist system.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51adePVydCL.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.geometry.net/sports_bk/kung_fu.html&usg=__A2ySpfaN0XPRM47pJ7pDhP8qQB4=&h=475&w=327&sz=33&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=Yi3uDpK9fRFijM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=94&ei=fYNuTbONCcH-8Aa4ncmPDw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dlongfist%2Bpunch%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%2 6rlz%3D1I7DLUS_en%26biw%3D1379%26bih%3D857%26tbs%3 Disch:1%26prmd%3Divnsfd&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=600&vpy=188&dur=3712&hovh=271&hovw=186&tx=94&ty=206&oei=fYNuTbONCcH-8Aa4ncmPDw&page=1&ndsp=35&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:0

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1080959]Here is another major trade off between the southern CMA and northern CMA. That's the square shouder and linear shoulder.

In the following WC punch picture, you can see the WC guy punches with a square shoulder (his chest and arm are in 90 degree). Since the distance between his right hand and left hand have equal reach to his opponent, he can use his left arm and right arm to punch at the same time, this make the "chain punches" possible. he can use both right arm and left arm for offense and defense.


In the following picture, you can see the longfist guy punches with his chest, shoulder, and arm in a straight line (his chest and arm are in 180 degree). Since his right arm is much longer than the left arm, this make the "chain punches" impossible. He pretty much uses his right hand for offense and left hand for defense. But since he will have much longer reach, that's the PRO for the longfist system.
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So what.You are still ona somewhat superficial comparative kick.
Wing Chun is not Shaolin Long Fist.

Joy Chaudhuri

[YouKnowWho]

superficial comparative kick.

I did say it's a "trade off" and not which style is better. We all know that the nothern CMA styles are good for "open" and southern CMA styles are good for "close".

It's just like to say "boxing is good for striking" and "Judo is good for throwing".

Should

- boxers be upset because I didn't say that boxing is good for throwing?
- Judoka be upset because I didn't say that Judo is good for striking?

Both machine gun and hand grenade has their place in battle field.

[anerlich]

When I did Xingyi, beng chuan was done with a phoenix eye fist and coordinated with a stamp of the rear foot.The punch was aimed at a slightly downward curving angle to attack vital points. There was no real concept of training chain punching, more emphasis was placed on blending elemental techniques together in accordance with five element theories. Techniques are not chambered at the hip or anywhere else, they are delivered from wherever the striking weapon happens to be. Xingyi as I learned it was a linear and hard style.

In TWC my punches are usually coordinated with the front foot if stepping in, and with the movement of the hip if not.

While solid strikes have commonality which transcends style, IMO there is otherwise only incidental similarity between the two approaches.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I don't know anything about any other wing chun except my own, but I feel that a good practitioner can strike with great force running, stepping, back stepping, or standing. It is not done simply with the weight of the body behind the stike. You only weigh so much, and if using your weight you are limiting your power. When you are in stance, or you are rooted, or whatever, you are using the ground as your base and not your body weight. I can punch just as hard with a short punch as I can by drawing way back and swinging, and I can hit way more accurately too. Most people can punch with great speed with just a bit of practice. I will not always fire off a shot from the center of my chest, but from the chamber at the arm pit, or just below that. I can punch just as hard either way. I call it inside and outside.
When it comes to the chain punch, I will throw 3 or 4 in a row if I can, but all of them will usually connect. If I can manage to put my opponent at a disadvantage for long enough to get a shot on him, I can usually do several of them. The first one usually stunning him enough to get a few more solid punches on him. At that point it is over with.

[Phil Redmond]

. . . .- The WC chain punch starts from the center of the chest. . . . .
Not necessarily. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxbn9F46mcI
Around :58 you'll see Yip Man do a central line bong sao. In other words his bong isn't in his centerline.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dHUTM6ibOg

WSL 7:07 central line punch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYm3hq1oD2w&feature=related

[couch]

Not necessarily. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxbn9F46mcI
Around :58 you'll see Yip Man do a central line bong sao. In other words his bong isn't in his centerline.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dHUTM6ibOg

WSL 7:07 central line punch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYm3hq1oD2w&feature=related

'xacly. Different ways to do it. It can 'clear' the centreline as the punch goes out, it can start from the centre of the chest (which I think is just a teaching tool/stage, but nonetheless) or can be a Jum and a Punch combined, etc.

Actually, Phil, that video camera of Ip Man isn't directly in front of him so all of his Bong's are on the (TWC) central line. :) Some people meet the force directly with the Bong, some clear/sweep with the Bong...lots of different ways to interpret and employ.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chain punching is about LINKING ( chain) and series of strikes into a "blitz" like fashioned, used to overwhelm the opponent.
It can be punches or any type of strike, high line, middle or low or a combination of them.
It is taught in its beginner form as chain punching because it builds the needed mindset for what it truly is.
Footwork is crucial.
Those that overvalue it are missing the picture, just like those that call it "inferior WC".