Tai Chi & Bodybuilding

[diego]

Does anyone train the two, how do you combine the energy?. To me it's like Yoga and Sumo training...in yoga you train the stomach vacuum and being vegetarian helps achieve mastery of it wheras sumo guys eat 20, 000 calories a day, lol.

So Arnold tells you to practise flexing your thighs vacuum your abs spread your lats while face and arms remain relaxed while holding poses for a minute to an hour. Tai Chi strives to use no tension continuosly while moving through uncomfortable postures...How does one teach say a 20 year old fresh to martial arts how to get buff like arnold but also have the tai chi body...should you train tai chi one week then lift weights one week and repeat, what do you guys do?.

I'm doing bak mei for one year and tai chi for like 5 months half ass, it took me seven months to get the basic yang short form I let the postures come naturally with my sisook while training full time bak mei from our sifu. For bak Mei sifu says don't lift weights cuz you need loose tendons to perform the bak mei steps properly like football and rugby aren't good for bak mei weapon skills ping pong and tennis are better sports to aid one's development of short power. I'm a big guy i don't need to buff up with weights I just used them for general mass building...it's better to be fat than buffed doing bak mei you need loose power...I'm just wondering if like say chen tai chi and bodybuilding full time would be good to build lots of power!?...

I posted this in the main forum cuz i do them as supplements to kung fu so I feel it shouldn't be in the tai chi or fitness forum lol...it will get more views here!. :)

[B-Rad]

You probably wouldn't get big like bodybuilders without serious supplements (and maybe steroids of some kind) and a great deal of training. There's a difference between bodybuilding and strength training. Strength training and taiji go together fine, bodybuilding like Arnold, maybe not so much. Most CMA teachers have a pretty poor understanding of athletic training beyond just doing what they've always been taught.

Some basic body weight strength training could probably help a lot of people's taiji quan.

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are MANY types of Strength Training ( ST) and "bodybuilding" is just one of them.
The goal of BB is to build lean muscle mass and that is NOT at odds with ANY IMA.
Yin and Yang, remember?
BUT, that said, certainly certain types of ST CAN be conter=productive to IMA training, such as isometrics and even in some cases isokinetics.
Lifting and lowering objects is something we do everyday, to get stronger at it is NOT a bad thing.
Progressive resistence training has been shown to be crucial for developing strong bones.
Hypertrophy ( the increase in muscle size) is a combination of a specific type of ST ( bodybuilding) and diet.
In short I am agreeing with B-rad.
Allow me this view:
You need a push to get your car out of snow or mud, or we need h elp moving furniture or you, god forbid, get stuck under a piano or heavy item, who would you want their to help you, the typical Tai Chi person or a Body Builder ( even better a powerlifter, lol)?

[dcrjradmonish]

Look at Bolo Yeung;)

[David Jamieson]

tai chi is for old people to remain supple and to keep their joints fluid.
It's not for young men. :p

There are a lot of young men who do it...but I don't think there is as much value in younger people. They don't really get the benefits and it certainly isn't used in sportive combatives.

I guess, people can do what they like, but Tai Chi for a young folks, in my opinion is not as productive for them as other more vigorous forms of exercise.

[ShaolinDan]

Well, I've only tried Tai Chi as a young man...so I can't say it wouldn't be more productive as an old one, but I've found it pretty productive.

I started practicing after I developed plantar fasciitis (foot tendinitis) and had to take a break from my regular kung fu curriculum.
I believe that I was able to return to my regular training largely as a result of strengthening my feet through tai chi practice.

I will never give up my more vigorous training in exchange for tai chi (until I have to), but I'm not giving up the tai chi either. I think it's helped my kung fu improve across the board--it's all about body awareness and control.

Also, meditation/meditative practice is good for young people...it teaches patience.

[ShaolinDan]

Oh yeah, and as regards the original question, this:


Look at Bolo Yeung;)

[SPJ]

strength and flexibility

1. strength, I lift weights and gradually strengthen each muscle group.

but there are also specific hard body conditioning for fighting functions.

2. flexiblity

muscle, tendon and joint "stretching". yi jin jing is good.

tai chi forms especially yang large form from yang cheng fu

and many simplied wushu forms such as 24 postures are based on yang cheng fu da jia.

they are expansive moves, so that you are stretching your muscle and tendon and lubricating your joints, too.

of course, there are also hard body conditioning for cai, lie, zhou, kao etc

so no matter what you do.

as long as they are strengthening you and increasing your flexibility

it is good, then.

:)

[bawang]

in internal martial arts you need to lift weights. if someone says dont lift weights screw him dont listen.
internal martial art its half hard half soft aka ying yang. its not that internal martial arts dont use brute strength, you just use it half of the time.

[YouKnowWho]

tai chi is for old people to remain supple and to keep their joints fluid.
It's not for young men. :p

There are a lot of young men who do it...but I don't think there is as much value in younger people. They don't really get the benefits and it certainly isn't used in sportive combatives.

I guess, people can do what they like, but Tai Chi for a young folks, in my opinion is not as productive for them as other more vigorous forms of exercise.

It's so funny that Taiji was my 1st style and I started my Taiji training when I was 7 years old. Today, I do less and less Taiji because it doesn't make me feel exited any more (can't do the same stuff for the rest of my life). My mom must drop my head on the ground when I was a baby. :D

Since I started my Taiji so early, all my life, when people talk about "brute force", "tight shoulder', "muscle group isolation", I truly don't know what they are talking about.

[diego]

in internal martial arts you need to lift weights. if someone says dont lift weights screw him dont listen.
internal martial art its half hard half soft aka ying yang. its not that internal martial arts dont use brute strength, you just use it half of the time. bak mei covers the external with the super quick footwork shuffles manipulating bodywieght with weapons and shaolin calisthenics like handstand cartwheel and bridges. Im getting tai chi bak mei style...sisook goes all slow in jik bo for the pullback spear and punch and then ZHOOM lol he explodes his whole stance with a push that leaves u kowtowing for a more indepth lesson... Looking up bolo yeung now. I never thought Id do a scholarly search on bruce lees nemesis.

[Ozzy Dave]

The slow form in Tai Ji Quan is basically preparation for practising Fa Jin.

It is beneficial for the health of the joints and tendons and lays the groundwork to appropriately pressurize the body when expressing force.

As such, plyometric type weight training is the best fit for pairing with Tai Ji Quan rather than absolute strength or strength endurance type training.

Having said that, I personally find the ballistic exercises done with kettle bells (such as swings, snatches, clean and jerks) a good fit which also offer a lot of strength endurance.

Dave

[YouKnowWho]

IMO, if you do anything in slow motion, it can always help you to develop body unification - all body parts move and stop at the same time. It doesn't have to be Taiji.

[Eric Olson]

Taiji is about storing and issuing energy. You must store before you issue. In strength training there isn't any storing, only issuing.

How can you reconcile the two? I'm not sure.

However, I don't think Taijij actually makes anyone stronger. It only allows you to deal with an incoming force (including gravity), store it into your structure and reissue it back out. Think shock absorber.

But what if you need to move a big rock or lift a heavy suitcase. I remember reading about some Taiji master that couldn't lift a bowling ball but could throw a person across the room.

That doesn't sound like a well-rounded fighter. Also, consider that adding muscle burns more calories and will keep you trim.

My advice is to work only with your own body weight so that you develop the whole length of the muscle, not just the belly of it, like body builders do. What bodybuilders lack is "functional strength."

Here's a really good book I've been working with.

http://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Your-Own-Gym/dp/0971407614

He has something like 120 bodyweight exercises for all levels of fitness.

These are just some notes. Please feel free to ask me any question if you need clarification.

Eric

[bawang]

the taiji symbol the ying yang means balance, 50/50. think about it. is being limp wristed soft balanced?

yang lu chan the founder of yang style taijiquan trained with 350 pound stone seal(deadlift). think about it

[B-Rad]

Taiji is about storing and issuing energy. You must store before you issue. In strength training there isn't any storing, only issuing.

How can you reconcile the two? I'm not sure.

However, I don't think Taijij actually makes anyone stronger. It only allows you to deal with an incoming force (including gravity), store it into your structure and reissue it back out. Think shock absorber.

But what if you need to move a big rock or lift a heavy suitcase. I remember reading about some Taiji master that couldn't lift a bowling ball but could throw a person across the room.

That doesn't sound like a well-rounded fighter. Also, consider that adding muscle burns more calories and will keep you trim.

My advice is to work only with your own body weight so that you develop the whole length of the muscle, not just the belly of it, like body builders do. What bodybuilders lack is "functional strength."

Here's a really good book I've been working with.

http://www.amazon.com/You-Are-Your-Own-Gym/dp/0971407614

He has something like 120 bodyweight exercises for all levels of fitness.

These are just some notes. Please feel free to ask me any question if you need clarification.

Eric

Not sure I understand what you're getting at with the whole storing vs. issuing energy thing. But as to the book, I just bought it a couple weeks ago and second its recommendation. Lots of good exercises.

[diego]

Not sure I understand what you're getting at with the whole storing vs. issuing energy thing. But as to the book, I just bought it a couple weeks ago and second its recommendation. Lots of good exercises.

Storing and issuing kinda makes sense to me...when you bodybuild you have to pose throughout the day you are constantly tightening your stabilizing muscles preparing for the next work out...you are always trying to stay pumped...tai chi is more building your natural pump...work your kwa, use no tension and keep going through each posture and when you are not doing the form this is when the principles really matter. you have to build your chi 24-7 but bodybuilding is like iron body dim mak karate **** lol you are constantly tightening your forearms like popeye, flaring your calves and lat's, etc. Most bodybuilders overtrain and burn out without external supplements...I pretty much stopped weights now that I have a tai chi set to work lol the mentality just doesn't seem consistent. I figure tho chen tai chi guys forms build pretty buff bodies compared to sun style...if a 20 year old kickboxer guy who models does bodybuilding could do the chen style drop into a split with sword in hand and stand up into a one leg stance mad slowly this is only gonna help his snap kick, am I right?;)

[diego]

IMO, if you do anything in slow motion, it can always help you to develop body unification - all body parts move and stop at the same time. It doesn't have to be Taiji.

anyone know how different tai chi is from say akido and yoga that moves slow...is the slow aspect from qigong and the fast in some styles from shaolin?. some yang styles don't go fast at all I heard:)

[YouKnowWho]

The Baji style also apply the slow training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYikolf7udw

[bawang]

if your students dont lift weights they will be weak and you can easily control them.
its all about control ego and power.

weight lifting is the staple of chinese martial arts. all legit styles train weights.

[Lucas]

if your students dont lift weights they will be weak and you can easily control them.
its all about control ego and power.

weight lifting is the staple of chinese martial arts. all legit styles train weights.

just in case it was missed :p

[Eric Olson]

Not sure I understand what you're getting at with the whole storing vs. issuing energy thing.

Ah, yes, this is a bit esoteric. But think of it like this. Take a napkin and hold it up to a water glass. Now hold it around the rim of the glass.

Which is longer, the circle or the line? Answer: the circle.

The human body is the same way. In order to become longer you be more circular. In Taiji they call this bending the five bows (ie arms, legs, spine)

The longer you become the more elastic energy you can store. So when you push against me it feels like you are moving me, which you are, but you are also making me longer even though the distance between us is growing shorter.

If you don't know Taiji you are extending but becoming shorter because you're not round. Once fully extended you have nothing left and I can easily manipulate you with the energy I've stored.

Or something like that...I'm not saying I have it fully figured out. The mistake that people make is to think that Taiji is "passive." Not really, it's about stealing someone elses force and sending them back at them when they're in disadvantageous position.

EO

[YouKnowWho]

So when you push against me ...

This is the major problem for the Taiji system in US. It builds on top of the un-realistic 1 point contact point and believe that 1 point contact is sufficient to destruct your opponent's structure. Taiji should emphasize on circlular move and not just straight line "push". The day that Taiji guys can think about "circlular move" and push your opponent's head down, lift his leg up, and spin, the day that Taiji can be brought into a new dimension.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK4MSdh5isc

[bawang]

protip: tai chi fighting does not use push

[Eric Olson]

This is the major problem for the Taiji system in US. It builds on top of the un-realistic 1 point contact point and believe that 1 point contact is sufficient to destruct your opponent's structure. Taiji should emphasize on circlular move and not just straight line "push". The day that Taiji guys can think about "circlular move" and push your opponent's head down, lift his leg up, and spin, the day that Taiji can be brought into a new dimension.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aK4MSdh5isc

Do you know about double-hand push hands? How 'bout hip, back, knee, etc push hands? Yep, there's more than just single contact.

EO

[YouKnowWho]

Do you know about double-hand push hands? How 'bout hip, back, knee, etc push hands? Yep, there's more than just single contact.

EO
It has nothing to do with single PH, double PH, or moving step PH. 1 point contact moves object. 2 points contact (in opposite directions) "rotate" object. The longer the axis, the easier for the rotation.

[Violent Designs]

Do you know about double-hand push hands? How 'bout hip, back, knee, etc push hands? Yep, there's more than just single contact.

EO

This is making me laugh so hard, but I'm sure YouKnowWho has no idea what is he talking about.

[hskwarrior]

wait i gotta get some popcorn. fu pow makes me laugh and i need a good one right now. :D

WINNING!!!!!!!!!

[Violent Designs]

This is not like arguing with me, or even you.

Right now he really has no idea....

[hskwarrior]

http://bossip.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/charlie-sheen-winning-tshirt.jpg?w=500&h=375

[YouKnowWho]

Do you know about double-hand push hands? How 'bout hip, back, knee, etc push hands? Yep, there's more than just single contact.

EO
As far as I know there are 4 different kind of PHs.

- single stational PH,
- double stational PH,
- single moving step PH,
- double moving step PH.

Clip is always better than words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZwMhfF1SRc

It's very pleasent to watch Su Dong Chen's clip. This is the kind of performance that I'll expect from any Taiji master. He does not just think about 1 point "push" as others. He punches, kicks, locks, and throws. Not only he understand multiple points contact concept, he also understand how to "finish (such as kick his opponent's head on the ground)" that you just don't see in many Taiji "push (see you later)" clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MF7u0RhPlg

[B-Rad]

Yeah, I like Su Dong Chen's videos. What is push hands competition like these days? Would most of this still be considered illegal technique?

[YouKnowWho]

Yeah, I like Su Dong Chen's videos. What is push hands competition like these days? Would most of this still be considered illegal technique?
I believe the PH rules in US is different from the PH rules in China. In China, the PH = Chinese wrestling without using the legs.

[mooyingmantis]

It's very pleasent to watch Su Dong Chen's clip. This is the kind of performance that I'll expect from any Taiji master. He does not just think about 1 point "push" as others. He punches, kicks, locks, and throws. Not only he understand multiple points contact concept, he also understand how to "finish (such as kick his opponent's head on the ground)" that you just don't see in many Taiji "push (see you later)" clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MF7u0RhPlg

Very impressive! Thanks for sharing this with us John. :)

[Eric Olson]

As far as I know there are 4 different kind of PHs.

- single stational PH,
- double stational PH,
- single moving step PH,
- double moving step PH.

Clip is always better than words.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZwMhfF1SRc

It's very pleasent to watch Su Dong Chen's clip. This is the kind of performance that I'll expect from any Taiji master. He does not just think about 1 point "push" as others. He punches, kicks, locks, and throws. Not only he understand multiple points contact concept, he also understand how to "finish (such as kick his opponent's head on the ground)" that you just don't see in many Taiji "push (see you later)" clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MF7u0RhPlg

I studied Feng Zhiqiang's Hun Yuan system. It's a variation of Chen style combined with Xin Yi and I believe some Tong Bei thrown in.

We have all of those kinds of push hands, which is why I wasn't sure what you meant by single point of contact push hands???

EO

[YouKnowWho]

I wasn't sure what you meant by single point of contact push hands???

When I referenced "single point contact", I wasn't talking about PH but to push your opponent away without controlling his legs. When your opponent's legs are free, he will be pushed "back". When your opponent's legs are controlled, he will be thrown "down".

[Eric Olson]

When I referenced "single point contact", I wasn't talking about PH but to push your opponent away without controlling his legs. When your opponent's legs are free, he will be pushed "back". When your opponent's legs are controlled, he will be thrown "down".

Ah, I see your point although Taiji as I learned it usually has some kind of control of the legs with the legs.

So for example. In single whip the opponent is wedged between the thigh and the elbow and it just takes a little twist to flip them backwards onto their head.

EO

[bawang]

So for example. In single whip the opponent is wedged between the thigh and the elbow and it just takes a little twist to flip them backwards onto their head.

EO
thats a common and wrong application of single whip

did you know: single whip is the most common move in choy lee fut. can u find it?

[Violent Designs]

thats a common and wrong application of single whip

did you know: single whip is the most common move in choy lee fut. can u find it?

I dunno maybe.

Biao ma gwa chui, charp chui. :cool:

[Eric Olson]

thats a common and wrong application of single whip

did you know: single whip is the most common move in choy lee fut. can u find it?

Did you know that until 2010 the soap opera "As the World Turns" was produced in Midwood, Brooklyn? Fascinating but true.

EO

[Eric Olson]

Wow, do I know how to shut up a troll or what?

EO

[bawang]

i didnt reply because your reply was stupid .
that "wedge the thigh" application is tai chi scamming 101. if u can take that app seriously it says a lot about any other martial arts you train.

i say it once and i say it again. yang luchan could deadlift 350 pounds and the original stone weight is still at his hometown.
internal is nothing to do with sensitivity and push hands.

[Eric Olson]

i didnt reply because your reply was stupid .

And yet it was still smarter than most of the crap you write here.

EO

[bawang]

nope

fdgfghgfhfgh

[Violent Designs]

nope

fdgfghgfhfgh

he mad bro.