View Full Version : Yet another Muslim terrorist murders Americans
BJJ-Blue
03-03-2011, 07:53 AM
" The suspect in the slaying of two U.S. airmen at Frankfurt airport has confessed to targeting American military members, a German security official said Thursday as investigators probed what they considered a possible act of Islamic terrorism.
German federal prosecutors took over the investigation into Wednesday's shooting, which also injured two U.S. airmen, one of them critically. They are working together with U.S. authorities.
Hesse state Interior Minister Boris Rhein told reporters in Wiesbaden that the suspect, identified as a 21-year-old ethnic Albanian from Kosovo, was apparently radicalized over the last few weeks. The attacker's family in northern Kosovo identified him as Arid Uka, whose family has been living in Germany for 40 years.
The suspect opened fire on a busload of U.S. airmen on their way from their base in England to serve in Afghanistan, said Marine Col. Dave Lapan, a Pentagon spokesman.
Uka's family said he worked at Frankfurt airport and was a devout Muslim. He was taken into custody immediately after the shooting and is to appear later Thursday in federal court in Karlsruhe."
Source: (complete article)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_germany_us_airport_shooting
Maybe we shouldn't blame Islam though, after all we are always seeing Jehovahs Witnesses hijacking planes, Mormons strapping bombs to themselves, and Lutherans beheading people, right?
sanjuro_ronin
03-03-2011, 02:16 PM
Maybe we shouldn't blame Islam though, after all we are always seeing Jehovahs Witnesses hijacking planes, Mormons strapping bombs to themselves, and Lutherans beheading people, right?
Every religion has their issues, JW's allow their children to die rather than have a blood transfusion for example.
That said, for quite sometime, the Tamil's ( a secular organization) were the leaders in suicide bombings.
Islam has a problem with extremists, just like every other religion.
They, the heads and the people, have to deal with it better.
We also need to ask ourselves WHY a people of a certain group want to kill us.
BJJ-Blue
03-03-2011, 02:41 PM
you suprised???
Of course not. It's not exactly a shock when followers of that religion to do **** like that.
Every religion has their issues, JW's allow their children to die rather than have a blood transfusion for example.
We also need to ask ourselves WHY a people of a certain group want to kill us.
It may sound hard, but I'd rather a religion let their kids die instead of going out and murdering other people.
The why is easy, imo. That religion is that way. Look at it's history. Look at the intolerance it preaches for other religions. The Catholics were never THIS bad, and they even cleaned up their act in terms of trying to conquer the world to force their religion on everyone else. These animals never stop, and the only thing they understand is overwhelming force. Look, the community organizer called for a new tone, he reached out to them, we even let them build a mosque at Ground Zero, and they STILL are murdering us. WTF will it take to get them to stop doing this other than violence?
MasterKiller
03-03-2011, 02:50 PM
we even let them build a mosque at Ground Zero, and they STILL are murdering us.
Not quite....
http://turbo.indyposted.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Mosque-Near-Ground-Zero1.jpg
Drake
03-03-2011, 02:52 PM
Of course not. It's not exactly a shock when followers of that religion to do **** like that.
It may sound hard, but I'd rather a religion let their kids die instead of going out and murdering other people.
The why is easy, imo. That religion is that way. Look at it's history. Look at the intolerance it preaches for other religions. The Catholics were never THIS bad, and they even cleaned up their act in terms of trying to conquer the world to force their religion on everyone else. These animals never stop, and the only thing they understand is overwhelming force. Look, the community organizer called for a new tone, he reached out to them, we even let them build a mosque at Ground Zero, and they STILL are murdering us. WTF will it take to get them to stop doing this other than violence?
Skinning people alive with seashells isn't that bad, eh? Or how about the infamous Spanish land grab, covered up with an "Inquisition"? Or how about when a Catholic priest referred to the Smallpox decimating the Native Americans as "the hand of god"?
And it's pretty stupid to lump all muslims together in one single, like-thinking group. There's over a billion of them, and there's more than one denomination. There's no shortage of muslims who are calling these murders "unislamic", and citing specific passages of the Quran that state explicitly that you NEVER kill anyone, even on the battlefield, if they are not facing you and are actively engaged in combat with you.
The extremist movement is not religious, and if you read the works of Galula, you'd understand these things better. It's economic and power-based... as it has been for centuries.
MasterKiller
03-03-2011, 02:54 PM
WTF will it take to get them to stop doing this other than violence?
Everyone knows 9/11 was a protest against American support for Israel, we just aren't supposed to say it outloud....:rolleyes:
Drake
03-03-2011, 02:54 PM
How many people have the IRA killed? I'm preeeeeetty sure they aren't muslims. In fact, they taught the extremists in the Middle East a lot of their tactics, most notably IED and VBIED tactics.
What religion is the IRA?
Drake
03-03-2011, 02:55 PM
Everyone knows 9/11 was a protest against American support for Israel, we just aren't supposed to say it outloud....:rolleyes:
Actually, the cause all depends on what rich kid gone wild OBL felt was a worthy cause for murder that week.
Lucas
03-03-2011, 02:59 PM
ebbs and flows fellas the whole of history is not just the past so many decades....nazi's were the among if not the most hardcore evil terrorists this world has seen yet were they muslims?
Hardwork108
03-03-2011, 04:41 PM
Actually, the cause all depends on what rich kid gone wild OBL felt was a worthy cause for murder that week.
Rich kids gone wild don't hijack planes and kill thousands of innocent people and themselves. Specially a dozen of them.
Also,where did they hijack those magic 2 aircraft that hit two buildings, but brought down three buildings?:rolleyes:
What about the magic "terrorist" passport that survived the fireball?
What about the magician who blurted out the official reason of the collapse of the building, as an eyewitness on the day of the tragedy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEgHU6pS-tg
9-11 was carried out by US intelligence agencies. This is becoming a well known fact, except in the North American hemisphere, or so it seems...
TIME TO WAKE UP!
curenado
03-03-2011, 04:45 PM
<<Islam has a problem with extremists, just like every other religion.>>
Well, in the present time and situation with people alive now - not from the inquisition....(That is like voting for slave checks! Lol!) or Hitler, which was also a long time ago.
It's attempted takeover group of the day. Except these guys are about as sophisticated as the keystone cops and could never have done much of anything without help.
You know you are the most pathetic conquerers in history when people have to help you! Lol!
bawang
03-03-2011, 05:01 PM
islamic extremism worships death while american libertarian extremism worships decadence and corruption. they are both sides of the same coin.
Of course not. It's not exactly a shock when followers of that religion to do **** like that.
yeah but why dont you post about americans killing muslims... more muslims are dying than christians... why isnt that news to you??? thousands of people who did nothing but happen to live in a place americans decided they needed to blow the sh1t out of... one bad guy goes into an apartment complex and the whole building gets attacked... remember how many people died when they kept trying to kill saddam and his sons with missiles??? that was brutal... they killed so many innocent people... where was your outrage then???
The why is easy, imo. That religion is that way. Look at it's history. Look at the intolerance it preaches for other religions. The Catholics were never THIS bad, and they even cleaned up their act in terms of trying to conquer the world to force their religion on everyone else. These animals never stop, and the only thing they understand is overwhelming force. Look, the community organizer called for a new tone, he reached out to them, we even let them build a mosque at Ground Zero, and they STILL are murdering us. WTF will it take to get them to stop doing this other than violence?
wow... youre a real piece of work, man...
you really dont understand their anger at all, do you?
<<Islam has a problem with extremists, just like every other religion.>>
Well, in the present time and situation with people alive now - not from the inquisition....(That is like voting for slave checks! Lol!) or Hitler, which was also a long time ago.
It's attempted takeover group of the day. Except these guys are about as sophisticated as the keystone cops and could never have done much of anything without help.
You know you are the most pathetic conquerers in history when people have to help you! Lol!
IRA... they are pretty recent...
Drake
03-03-2011, 07:58 PM
Rich kids gone wild don't hijack planes and kill thousands of innocent people and themselves. Specially a dozen of them.
Also,where did they hijack those magic 2 aircraft that hit two buildings, but brought down three buildings?:rolleyes:
What about the magic "terrorist" passport that survived the fireball?
What about the magician who blurted out the official reason of the collapse of the building, as an eyewitness on the day of the tragedy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEgHU6pS-tg
9-11 was carried out by US intelligence agencies. This is becoming a well known fact, except in the North American hemisphere, or so it seems...
TIME TO WAKE UP!
OBL IS a rich kid gone wild. To be more specific, egotistical and narcissistic. Everything else you said has already been addressed, and I'm not going to address it again.
Lucas
03-04-2011, 01:05 AM
Pirates weren't and aren't all Muslim :D
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 06:54 AM
Islam has to deal with the extremissts, juts like Christians have to deal with Our extremists that bomb abortion clinics and say that gay's deserve to die and say and do other horrific acts.
Religion is used as an excuse to do horrifc things and say horrific things, and prettyh much every religious expression has extremists that are guilty of this.
The blame, while squarely on the shoulders of those COMMITING the acts is also on those of he same faith that ALLOW them to do so and to be representive of said religion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NutFkykjmbM&feature=related
why is it ok to slander muslims in america? well, and everywhere else in the western world too? this islamaphobia thing is too much...
some more teabagger racism, just for fun...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LCL2IqgjSc&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X56ezUVMOzc&feature=fvwkrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr5VET3Kw08&feature=related
BJJ-Blue
03-04-2011, 08:11 AM
wow... youre a real piece of work, man...
you really dont understand their anger at all, do you?
Christians have to deal with Our extremists that bomb abortion clinics and say that gay's deserve to die and say and do other horrific acts.
Religion is used as an excuse to do horrifc things and say horrific things, and prettyh much every religious expression has extremists that are guilty of this.
The blame, while squarely on the shoulders of those COMMITING the acts is also on those of he same faith that ALLOW them to do so and to be representive of said religion.
Their anger comes from that vile religion, why do you think they always scream, "Allah Akbar" when murdering innocents. Thye've been at this for centuries now.
As to the IRA, it's not over just religion. And you don't hear pastors/ministers/etc calling for bloodshed at church. You do with these Muslims. Sure, not all do it, but enough do to prove (to me at least), it's that vile religion's fault. Sure, we get Christians killing abortion doctors and setting off bombs at the Olympics in the name of religion. I admit it. But the one thing you dont have is those guys pastors/ministers/etc calling for the killings from the pulpit. To me, thats a huge difference.
Their anger comes from that vile religion, why do you think they always scream, "Allah Akbar" when murdering innocents. Thye've been at this for centuries now. .
for the same reason people yelled jesus christ when slaughtering villiagers... it still happens to this day in some less desirable places in this world, especially in africa...
why is it ok for you to call them vile but its not ok for me to call any creationist a weak minded fool who needs the crutch of their god to keep from being responsible and accountable for their own existence???
oh, and with al queada, its not just about religion for them either... or for hamas, hezzbolah, PLO, whatever...
SoCo KungFu
03-04-2011, 09:28 AM
for the same reason people yelled jesus christ when slaughtering villiagers... it still happens to this day in some less desirable places in this world, especially in africa...
why is it ok for you to call them vile but its not ok for me to call any creationist a weak minded fool who needs the crutch of their god to keep from being responsible and accountable for their own existence???
oh, and with al queada, its not just about religion for them either... or for hamas, hezzbolah, PLO, whatever...
Man just let that idiot go. Every dumb ass thing he says just screams racism, sexism, bigot all around. And even worse he doesn't even see just how bad he is. I just find it funny he wants to think he has half a clue on "facts" for all these issues, yet he can't even see the *******ery of his entire faith base fairy world.
"If one is willing to believe in contradictions, one is, in my opinion, willing to stop thinking and accept anything." Pretty much sums up people like him right there don't ya think?
Besides, its not like he has any real stroke in the world. People like him get left behind. He can have his little cow paddy of a state and live in his own little world. People like that cling to resist the change happening around them.
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 09:32 AM
"Christians" put "God Bless USA" on bombs that are dropped on people.
Didn't a preacher call for the US to assassinate Hugo Chavez? Pat Roberts or someone like that?
Yes, it is true that some Leaders in Islam are guilty of enticing violence and this should be unacceptable.
Islam needs reform, that is a given but I am not sure how they can go about it in THIS generation when there is still so much hatred towards the US and still such a huge US precsence in Muslim lands.
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 09:34 AM
why is it ok for you to call them vile but its not ok for me to call any creationist a weak minded fool who needs the crutch of their god to keep from being responsible and accountable for their own existence???
Not sure who you are referring to here, all religions make it clear that WE are accountable for our OWN actions and WILL have to answer for them.
BJJ-Blue
03-04-2011, 11:42 AM
for the same reason people yelled jesus christ when slaughtering villiagers... it still happens to this day in some less desirable places in this world, especially in africa...
But is this stilll going on present day? The Muslims are still beheading people, hijacking planes, and stoning rape victims to death in the present day.
why is it ok for you to call them vile but its not ok for me to call any creationist a weak minded fool who needs the crutch of their god to keep from being responsible and accountable for their own existence???
I don't care if you call me a weak minded fool or laugh at my religious beliefs. But I would care if you started calling for my death because of my religious beliefs.
oh, and with al queada, its not just about religion for them either... or for hamas, hezzbolah, PLO, whatever...
Agreed. But it plays a part, and you do have some of their religious leaders calling for bloodshed from the pulpit (or whatever it's called in that religion) in the name of Allah.
Not sure who you are referring to here, all religions make it clear that WE are accountable for our OWN actions and WILL have to answer for them.
not who... what...
and i never said "actions"... i said "existance"...
its not something i would say very often because i know it offends people... but this timei said it to make a point to blue... but yeah, i said it and i stand by it... not really something i wanna debate tho... its been done to death already... at this points its all just repetition anyways...
but it wasnt said with you in mind if thats what ur asking...
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 11:46 AM
not who... what...
and i never said "actions"... i said "existance"...
I'm still not sure what you were trying to say there...sorry.
Personally I think most creationlists like the Young Earth and Old Earth people, and those that take genesis as "literal and concrete", are a bit silly.
But is this stilll going on present day? The Muslims are still beheading people, hijacking planes, and stoning rape victims to death in the present day.
I don't care if you call me a weak minded fool or laugh at my religious beliefs. But I would care if you started calling for my death because of my religious beliefs.
Agreed. But it plays a part, and you do have some of their religious leaders calling for bloodshed from the pulpit (or whatever it's called in that religion) in the name of Allah.
oh ok... so if a guy rapes and kills people, its cool, as long as he isnt doing it today???
and yes, i already said so, africa, lotsof christian based killings... google it, you will find a ton of links...
BJJ-Blue
03-04-2011, 11:49 AM
Man just let that idiot go. Every dumb ass thing he says just screams racism, sexism, bigot all around. And even worse he doesn't even see just how bad he is.
And the race card is once again is played by a liberal. :rolleyes: Props for throwing in the sexism and bigot part though, you at least modified the playbook.
Oh, you forgot ****phobic. ;)
Besides, its not like he has any real stroke in the world. People like him get left behind. He can have his little cow paddy of a state and live in his own little world. People like that cling to resist the change happening around them.
Yeah, I'm really getting left behind. I make more than the median income where I live and I'm moving up professionally too.
As to my "cow paddy of a State", its got the best real estate market in the nation and one of (if not the) the best job markets as well . So yeah, we do want to resist the change that these liberal States have enacted that are forcing their residents to flee here like refugees.
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 11:50 AM
oh ok... so if a guy rapes and kills people, its cool, as long as he isnt doing it today???
and yes, i already said so, africa, lotsof christian based killings... google it, you will find a ton of links...
I can't recall the country in Africa but "christians" were going out and killing ****sexuals.
It was a fringe group, but still.
I can't recall the country in Africa but "christians" were going out and killing ****sexuals.
It was a fringe group, but still.
and abortion doctors ;) which of course, when using explosives, always runs the risk of hurting inoscents...
Drake
03-04-2011, 11:52 AM
Now this is just my opinion, but I find it hard to believe anything that was physically written by a man is somehow divinely directed any more than I believe any other assertion made without anything to back it up.
We are constantly learning about the universe, and most religions have found themselves continually needing to alter their interpretations to fit the realities we are discovering.
"Oh, maybe passage X was about black holes, and it was just written in the context of the person's view of the world at the time!"
No... passage X really states that the magic monkey gave the prophet a magic banana. Nothing about black holes to be found there.
I just made that up... don't run with it. But, you know what I mean.
BJJ-Blue
03-04-2011, 11:52 AM
oh ok... so if a guy rapes and kills people, its cool, as long as he isnt doing it today???
Do what?!?!
and yes, i already said so, africa, lotsof christian based killings... google it, you will find a ton of links...
We've been over this one before (I believe it was before you showed up though), and it was shown to be false. Post your links if you have any, but I've already searched before and came up empty.
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 11:54 AM
It pains me to see this happening, especially when Christ was SO clear in his regard to those that are different then us and even those that are our enemies:
We are to love them and pray for them.
We are to take care of those that need taking care of.
We leave judgement to God since NO ONE is without sin.
Christ forgave those that crucified him and commanded as to love each other and our enemies.
It's not that hard, but this is the danger of when people allow others to interpret the "word of God" for them instead of learning it for themselves.
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 11:58 AM
Now this is just my opinion, but I find it hard to believe anything that was physically written by a man is somehow divinely directed any more than I believe any other assertion made without anything to back it up.
The bible tells us to TEST all that we are told and it warns us that even the Word of God is not tamper proof.
Jeremiah warned and cursed the scribes for attributing false things that they wanted people to believe was the word of God.
We are constantly learning about the universe, and most religions have found themselves continually needing to alter their interpretations to fit the realities we are discovering.
Our understandging of God is based only in PART on the bible, God's wonderous work of the universe is another part of that.
It is right that our understanding of God evolves as our understanding of the universe does to.
"Oh, maybe passage X was about black holes, and it was just written in the context of the person's view of the world at the time!"
No... passage X really states that the magic monkey gave the prophet a magic banana. Nothing about black holes to be found there.
Not sure what you mean here...
I just made that up... don't run with it. But, you know what I mean.
Drake
03-04-2011, 12:01 PM
The bible tells us to TEST all that we are told and it warns us that even the Word of God is not tamper proof.
Jeremiah warned and cursed the scribes for attributing false things that they wanted people to believe was the word of God.
Our understandging of God is based only in PART on the bible, God's wonderous work of the universe is another part of that.
It is right that our understanding of God evolves as our understanding of the universe does to.
Not sure what you mean here...
I'm saying a lot of what is now being interpreted as metaphorical, in light of modern science, may very well be meant in the literal sense.
Lucas
03-04-2011, 12:04 PM
hes saying what a lot of non religious people have issue with in 'bibles' like how religious people are changing things to make them right when factual contradicitons are found in reality based sciences as time continues on. our understanding at the time of these writings was so small that many contridictions have popped up throught time as a result of ignorance of the universe at the time of ink to parchment.
the easiest and best is 'oh you're just being tested'
one of my favs is how some religous people dont believe the dinosaurs were real....seriously? oh and faith healing your kids to death...yeah...
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 12:06 PM
I'm saying a lot of what is now being interpreted as metaphorical, in light of modern science, may very well be meant in the literal sense.
Oh, I see.
Well, Augustine postulated that God, being outside the space-time continuem is NOT subject to it and that before the existence of the universe there was no time as we know it.
Augustine postulated that, setting in motion the creation of the universe, God created time along with the universe.
The big bang theory is inline with this view.
Lucas
03-04-2011, 12:07 PM
the problem for non religious people is that anyone can postulate anything to make anything sound right. its easy, i can do it too.....
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 12:12 PM
the problem for non religious people is that anyone can postulate anything to make anything sound right. its easy, i can do it too.....
Augustine was a Christian and living in about 300 AD, he wrote many apologetic books and replies, he also shanked the poodle with his development of the "orginal sin" doctrine.
Drake
03-04-2011, 12:16 PM
Oh, I see.
Well, Augustine postulated that God, being outside the space-time continuem is NOT subject to it and that before the existence of the universe there was no time as we know it.
Augustine postulated that, setting in motion the creation of the universe, God created time along with the universe.
The big bang theory is inline with this view.
That doesn't even make a lick of sense. How can anything be outside of the space-time continuum? And the big bang isn't necessarily the creation of the universe. It's the expansion of something that had existed prior, and may only be a portion of the greater vastness of space. I cannot accept that the big bang was the creation of everything, because that isn't proven, and also would require a broad assumption that what we know of the universe is all there is. That's poor scientific reasoning.
And nowhere does any scientific manuscript suggest that there was no time before the big bang. Most assume there was, as the opposite would not make sense.
And you seriously think Augustine had that level of scientific clarity about the universe? I'm willing to bet his logic and views were much more simplistic.
examples??? sure... lets see what i can come up with in a 2 minute ggogle search...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/251815.stm
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.indian/2008-02/msg00033.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/04/world/uganda-s-terror-crackdown-multiplies-the-suffering.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all
http://www.panorama.ru/works/patr/bp/finre.html
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all?content=10.1080/1469076042000312203
http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm
http://atheism.about.com/library/glossary/western/bldef_kukluxklan.htm
http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthise_/2004/11/christian_death.html
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/states/tripura/terrorist_outfits/nlft.htm
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/states/tripura/terrorist_outfits/NLFT_tl.htm
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iX3INESyeqiM9yeUrTNCtT-SYWxg
http://www.endhereditaryreligion.com/2009/02/genealogies-of-ignorance-a-conversation-on-childhood-indoctrination/
http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/crime_and_courts/article_85c9b9e0-b195-5b08-bd76-6df955e64adf.html
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23369148-pope-led-cover-up-of-child-abuse-by-priests.do
http://articles.sfgate.com/1998-07-19/books/17726930_1_northern-ireland-protestant-paramilitary-organizations-death-squads
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/call_for_orange_volunteers_to_end_attacks_1_188809 5
http://www.thegaymanifesto.com/2010/04/02/american-based-christian-ministries-pushed-ugandan-kill-the-gays-bill/
http://www.publiceye.org/rightist/salvi.html
http://www.victoriaadvocate.com/weblogs/h1n1-vaccine/2010/jan/29/born-again-christian-convicted-of-murder/
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/james_kopp.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/05/31/rudolph.profile/index.html
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/04/texas-taliban/
http://www.blog.repentamarillo.com/ You should call these guys up, blue... friends?
http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/militant-joels-army-followers-seek-theocracy/
http://www.siena.org/July-2009/death-cult-santa-muerte.html
http://www.cleveland.com/world/index.ssf/2009/04/mexicos_death_cult_protests_sh.html
you want more? coz theres a million of em... but here i showed big groups, small groups, individuals, all over the world, and right in your back yard... but maybe if i can be bothered, later i'll take a few minutes and put together a good 2 or three pages worth of quality links...
blue, your knowledge of the world outside the US sucks balls... your view is so narrow... to suggest there arent hundreds of christian terror groups is to ignore reality... of course you dont hear about it every day on the news... its not a popular fact among christians, especially the ones that point at islam as an evil violent religion... but the simple fact of the matter is that there are a TON of christian terror groups... One of them is even in your own back yard...
Oh, I see.
Well, Augustine postulated that God, being outside the space-time continuem is NOT subject to it and that before the existence of the universe there was no time as we know it.
Augustine postulated that, setting in motion the creation of the universe, God created time along with the universe.
The big bang theory is inline with this view.
there are many versions of the big bang theory and not all fit in with genesis... especially when you are taking it from a many-worlders perspective... the closer we come to unification, the further we get from the singular bigbang genesis theory...
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 12:50 PM
That doesn't even make a lick of sense. How can anything be outside of the space-time continuum? And the big bang isn't necessarily the creation of the universe. It's the expansion of something that had existed prior, and may only be a portion of the greater vastness of space. I cannot accept that the big bang was the creation of everything, because that isn't proven, and also would require a broad assumption that what we know of the universe is all there is. That's poor scientific reasoning.
And nowhere does any scientific manuscript suggest that there was no time before the big bang. Most assume there was, as the opposite would not make sense.
And you seriously think Augustine had that level of scientific clarity about the universe? I'm willing to bet his logic and views were much more simplistic.
I think you missed the point, Augustine was NOT interpreting Genesis literally, even 1700 years ago.
The big bang relates that the universe HAD a beginning, it is expanding and all that is expanding must have had a beginning.
There was no space or time BEFORE there was space and time.
There are theories that the universe always was or there are multiple universese in different dimensions, but there is no evidence, much less proof of that.
Though one can argue that if there are mulitple dimensions and multiple universe that "heaven and God" can exist in one of those.
I mean, if we are just speculating for speculation sake with no evidence needed.
Quantum physics, like Einstien postulated, views time as relevant to context.
There is no reason to assume time was ever present before the universe began NOR to assume time works the same way or even exists in other dimensions.
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 12:51 PM
there are many versions of the big bang theory and not all fit in with genesis... especially when you are taking it from a many-worlders perspective... the closer we come to unification, the further we get from the singular bigbang genesis theory...
May I suggest:
www.biologos.org for some interesting reading.
SoCo KungFu
03-04-2011, 12:52 PM
Our understandging of God is based only in PART on the bible, God's wonderous work of the universe is another part of that.
It is right that our understanding of God evolves as our understanding of the universe does to.
Except that Genesis is bollocks and there was no flood and a hundred other things that just don't fit. If part of the understanding of a god (any god) is in the wondrous work of the universe, and every discovery we make is in exclusion of a god (any god), then what's the point of he/she/it again? Why not just cut out the middle man that really isn't doing anything (except keeping those who may otherwise be good people in an emotional/mental stranglehold)?
Drake
03-04-2011, 12:55 PM
I think you missed the point, Augustine was NOT interpreting Genesis literally, even 1700 years ago.
The big bang relates that the universe HAD a beginning, it is expanding and all that is expanding must have had a beginning.
There was no space or time BEFORE there was space and time.
There are theories that the universe always was or there are multiple universese in different dimensions, but there is no evidence, much less proof of that.
Though one can argue that if there are mulitple dimensions and multiple universe that "heaven and God" can exist in one of those.
I mean, if we are just speculating for speculation sake with no evidence needed.
Quantum physics, like Einstien postulated, views time as relevant to context.
There is no reason to assume time was ever present before the universe began NOR to assume time works the same way or even exists in other dimensions.
That still breaks down to a lot of assumptions as to what Augustine is referring to. Again, fitting his interpretations to match modern science.
First, nobody knows if there was a time in which there was no time (which makes no **** sense, FYI), and nobody is saying the big bang was THE beginning. You are taking what we know NOW and assuming that is what Augustine is referring to. So, when we find out what came before the BB, then that will be templated to Augustine as well?
There isn't anything suggesting time ever stopped or did not exist.
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 01:06 PM
That still breaks down to a lot of assumptions as to what Augustine is referring to. Again, fitting his interpretations to match modern science.
First, nobody knows if there was a time in which there was no time (which makes no **** sense, FYI), and nobody is saying the big bang was THE beginning. You are taking what we know NOW and assuming that is what Augustine is referring to. So, when we find out what came before the BB, then that will be templated to Augustine as well?
There isn't anything suggesting time ever stopped or did not exist.
Augustine said what he said, it's no assumption to say he said that, he said it and wrote it down.
The fact that scientific theory came to "agree" with him centuries later is no biggie.
It could have been an absolute fluke on his part.
Augustine warned not to take Genesis literally because nature could prove our interpretation wrong and then he interpreted gensis HIS way, which buy coincendence has come to be the scientific view of many, the POINT was that Augustine warned NOT to interepret ( or to be cautiosu) in interpreting stories liek Genesis in a literal and concrete fashion.
The Big bang was NOT the beginning, no you are right, it was the beginning of the universal expansion yes, but we don't know what was there already, IF anything was there at all.
Not sure why you have issues in believing that time as we know it is relevant to our reality but hey, its all good.
We are just having good fun here, no biggie.
Drake
03-04-2011, 01:09 PM
Nothing fell into agreement with anything. It was an ambiguous statement made by him that could easily apply to virtually anything. It's like hearing someone defend Nostradamus and TV psychics.
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 01:10 PM
Except that Genesis is bollocks and there was no flood and a hundred other things that just don't fit. If part of the understanding of a god (any god) is in the wondrous work of the universe, and every discovery we make is in exclusion of a god (any god), then what's the point of he/she/it again? Why not just cut out the middle man that really isn't doing anything (except keeping those who may otherwise be good people in an emotional/mental stranglehold)?
Actually, Genesis is a compilation of at least 2 creation stories and yes, there was a flood, not a global one of course, but there was a huge flood in the mesopetamian area.
Genesis is a story of creation, not HOW it was created, not by what process, it is not and was never a science book, it is a creation story ( 2 stories at least, put into one general story).
Ancient man writing for ancient man wrote how ancient man wrote, by stories.
Regardless of inspiration or not, ancient man wrote in that historical genre.
Drake
03-04-2011, 01:11 PM
Since it's all in good fun... it reminds me of THIS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JaRObcLsds
Drake
03-04-2011, 01:12 PM
Actually, Genesis is a compilation of at least 2 creation stories and yes, there was a flood, not a global one of course, but there was a huge flood in the mesopetamian area.
Genesis is a story of creation, not HOW it was created, not by what process, it is not and was never a science book, it is a creation story ( 2 stories at least, put into one general story).
Ancient man writing for ancient man wrote how ancient man wrote, by stories.
Regardless of inspiration or not, ancient man wrote in that historical genre.
Did the bible say it was global?
And didn't Genesis provide a very specific timeline? Or are we going to keep scooting that timeline out as we find out the universe is older than we thought?
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 01:21 PM
Did the bible say it was global?
And didn't Genesis provide a very specific timeline? Or are we going to keep scooting that timeline out as we find out the universe is older than we thought?
The writers of Gensis ( the bible doesn't say ANYTHING at all, its a book ;)) said the "all the land/world was covered".
Just as Rome and Alexander conquered all the world too, it was ancient writing by ancient writers.
The timeline of Genesis is from Adam, not from the beginning of the world.
Of course Adam, which means Man, is in of himself and whole new story, LOL !
Lucas
03-04-2011, 01:27 PM
i know in the analects of confucious there is reference to the great deluge, does this coorespond chronologically?
Drake
03-04-2011, 01:28 PM
The writers of Gensis ( the bible doesn't say ANYTHING at all, its a book ;)) said the "all the land/world was covered".
Just as Rome and Alexander conquered all the world too, it was ancient writing by ancient writers.
The timeline of Genesis is from Adam, not from the beginning of the world.
Of course Adam, which means Man, is in of himself and whole new story, LOL !
So you are making the assumption that it was local, as modern science doesn't support a global flood? All the land/world seems pretty specific.
Drake
03-04-2011, 01:28 PM
i know in the anelects of confucious there is reference to the great deluge, does this coorespond chronologically?
No. Floods happen. Often. And virtually everywhere.
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 01:40 PM
So you are making the assumption that it was local, as modern science doesn't support a global flood? All the land/world seems pretty specific.
Saying the Rome ruled the world seems pretty specific too, did they? did the writers mean that?
Nope.
Whenever we try to interpret ancient text we need to see WHo wrote it, to WHOM and with what purpose.
Genesis and its stories,like the flood that is recounted in the Giligimesh epic, were written by ancient man, putting down on "paper" ancient oral accounts passed on by the generations.
It is not a "science" book and was written in the genre of its time.
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 01:42 PM
i know in the analects of confucious there is reference to the great deluge, does this coorespond chronologically?
Not really, like Drake said, floods happen all the time, some are HUGE and others just big enough to get a mention in the books.
Ancient man wasn't that worried about recording precise events as much as impressions about the event, it was far more interesting that way.
ShaolinDan
03-04-2011, 01:48 PM
Saying the Rome ruled the world seems pretty specific too, did they? did the writers mean that?
Nope.
Whenever we try to interpret ancient text we need to see WHo wrote it, to WHOM and with what purpose.
Genesis and its stories,like the flood that is recounted in the Giligimesh epic, were written by ancient man, putting down on "paper" ancient oral accounts passed on by the generations.
It is not a "science" book and was written in the genre of its time.
Good stuff, Sanjuro. I'm impressed.
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 01:55 PM
We need to remember that "inspired word of God" means something different to those that believe the bible to be inerrant than it did to those 2000 years ago or more.
The bible is a progressive revelation of God in our World, but it is just a partial one, we must also look to God's work in the Universe and for a Christian, God's Word, Jesus Christ.
sanjuro_ronin
03-04-2011, 01:59 PM
Good stuff, Sanjuro. I'm impressed.
I have my moments :D
http://iranpoliticsclub.net/islam/ayat-gilani/images/hejab%20sexy-muslim.jpg
http://www.yousaytoo.com/gallery_image/pic/84627/original/remote_image_6201_0.jpg
Europol Report: All Terrorists are Muslims…Except the 99.6% that Aren’t
http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/
............................
heres a few more random ones...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/shannyn-moore/christian-fundamentalist_b_209521.html
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/52317/”%3Ca%20href=
http://dunedinschool.wordpress.com/2010/04/17/christian-terrorism-dominion-theology-theonomy-reconstruction-theology-and-tea-parties/
http://terrorismcounter.blogspot.com/2007/09/terrorism-statistics.html
http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Christian_terrorism
MasterKiller
03-04-2011, 02:52 PM
http://www.yousaytoo.com/gallery_image/pic/84627/original/remote_image_6201_0.jpg
*Points at shirt* Open says me!!!!
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